A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[KingOfHearts]

The more 5B sits in retrospection, the less impact it seems to have left. It was a very long detour for the most part. We had character moments, but they didn't develop the mains very much. Robin dying, seeing dead people and sending them to the River of Lost Souls should have left some sort of impact. It's shocking how inconsequential seeing Pan, James, Gaston and Milah really was. 5B is better than S4, but it's still very filler.

Since S3, 5A has been the only arc to genuinely move the story along. All the Dark One and Captain Swan stuff really tugged on the core threads of the show. There was actual character development and the characters were actually able to drive the plot instead of vice-versa. Emma's choices directly affected what was going on. In S4 and 5B, the plot was driven by coincidences and sudden advantages.

Edited June 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

12 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Since S3, 5A has been the only arc to genuinely move the story along. 

Which is why I don't understand the hate for it. A lot of people (myself included) were upset that the Dark One mythology wasn't explored as well as it could have been, but overall, 5A is leaps and bounds ahead of 5B. In my opinion, the cinematography, costumes, overall show mythology, pushing the characters' stories forward, and having high stakes makes 5A one of the best arcs of the series. Even though the characters were in "hell" for the majority of 5B, the stakes didn't seem all that high. Killing Robin off didn't even have much of an impact because he was barely used in the episodes leading up to his final moments. Hook never got to discover Rumple was the one who pushed Milah into the river, and it's ambiguous on screen whether or not those poor souls will actually escape. Snow and Charming didn't get to do anything about their dead parents in the Underworld. Robin wasn't able to have a legitimate argument with Regina about Zelena. Unless your name was Zelena, Hades, Regina, or Cora, the Underworld was very Underwhelming.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

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Which is why I don't understand the hate for it. A lot of people (myself included) were upset that the Dark One mythology wasn't explored as well as it could have been, but overall, 5A is leaps and bounds ahead of 5B.

I still don't like 5A, though. It's my least favorite arc. While it did move the story along, I found it depressing, annoying, and disconnected from the rest of the show in its tone and feel. 

[Camera One]

I don't hate 5A, but I can't say I liked it nor have any urge to rewatch it.  In hindsight, the whole Dark Swan routine in Storybrooke was unnecessary and emo filler; the Merida stuff was painful to watch; the Camelot story had zero payoff except for the bad guy; and Merlin's plans made no sense.  CS got some romantic and meaty scenes, but if you're not watching for that, there wasn't much to enjoy the second time around without the suspense.

[maryle]

That so strange because even without CS google on 5a still a strong arc with a much more coherent narrative for me than 5b where it was just most of time one-off adventure of the character of the week. The only real arc are the weak romance go bad between Zelena and Hades who just undermine Zeus as vilain and Hook back to life.

It seems so much personnal to me. I do not really believe at real consensus on this kind of matter it is like when fans say their fav is the fav of the general audience. The truth is nobody know the real data on such thing.

[Writing Wrongs]

So I'm doing my re-watch before the Season 5 blu-ray comes out. I'm up to Going Home. First off, I always wonder when big stuff is going on if the whole town gets told or just that select few. So everyone goes back to where they came from and no one tells them why? 

No way that Flashback Emma giving birth is 18. 

So I'm confused about Emma and Henry. I get that their past memories are fake, but what about the present day? So they just think they've been driving around Maine? Did Regina just throw in a job and apartment in NY somehow too?

[Camera One]

So I'm confused about Emma and Henry. I get that their past memories are fake, but what about the present day? So they just think they've been driving around Maine? Did Regina just throw in a job and apartment in NY somehow too?

I would think that's beyond the extent of Regina's magic.  Regina must have given Emma money, or maybe Emma would just access her bank account from before she got to Storybrooke, and also would continue being a bailsbondwoman since she would have those memories?  The weird thing would be if someone recognized Emma... would she remember them?   Though if her life was all happy, would she have become a bailsbondwoman?  I guess Regina's fake memories would explain that some other way.

Typical, none of the details are revealed or even referred to.  I have doubts these issues even came up in the Writers' Room.

[Rumsy4]

I'm not sure where to post this. We were talking of rock bottom moments for Regina in her character thread, and I started thinking what would be considered rock-bottom moments for some of the characters in the show. I added a (?) where I wasn't sure if something could be considered an absolute rock-bottom moment, but it was still something pretty traumatic. I also added their reactions in italics to each of the traumas. 

Emma: The moment where she gave birth to Henry chained to a hospital bed, and wouldn't even look at the baby becasue she was completely broken and alone. :-( (Rebuilt her life positively, but kept herself extremely guarded) / When Henry died after eating the apple pie meant for her. (Voiced her love for him, and brought him back to life with TLK) / Having to kill Hook after he had absorbed all the Dark Ones into Excalibur (?). (Attempted to get him back when she realized Rumple had rendered Killian's sacrifice meaningless, but later resigned herself to grieve Killian's loss when he asked her to leave him behind in the UW).

Killian: Sold by his father into servitude (Tried to live up to his idolized brother, but was traumatized enough to fall into bad habits like excessive drinking and gambling) / Liam's and Milah's deaths (?). (Jumped right into revenge-mode) / The moment when he realized that he was wasted his life in the pursuit of revenge, while his nemesis had not only survived the Dreamshade poisoning, but was still wandering around with his girlfriend even after she had lost her memories. (Attempted to run away with a magic bean and leave the heroic idiots to die, but repented, and turned around his ship) / Parting from Emma at the Town Line (Tried to get back to his life as a pirate, but couldn't, and ended up sacrificing his beloved ship to see Emma and help save her and her family from danger) / Sacrificing himself at the end of 5A, only to end up in the underworld tortured by Hades, and Rumple rendering his sacrifice meaningless. (Refused to betray his friends despite severe torture, and even worked with the man who had murdered him to help defeat Hades)

Regina: The moment when Cora murdered Daniel in front of her eyes and she lost all hope to escape her life. (Turned her focus to revenge on the wrong person, and kept feeding into her Dark impulses) / The moment Henry died after eating the apple pie meant for Emma (?) / Parting "forever" from Henry at the Town Line when she reversed the Curse (?). (Attempted to put herself under a sleeping curse, then turned to revenge against Zelena) / Losing Robin to "Marian" (?) (Blamed other people, and tried to force someone to rewrite her story) / Robin died sacrificing himself (?). (Jealous of Hook & Emma, and literally split herself in two to escape the consequences of her past). 

Snow & Charming: Lost both parents, realized Regina had sent the Huntsman to kill her. (Forgave Regina and resigned herself to her fate) / The Dark Curse was on them and Snow went into labor. (Tried to keep up hope, and sent Emma alone to safety so she could break the Curse) / Snow having to kill Charming to cast the second Dark Curse (Did it to save unborn child, but Snow defied odds to save Charming after Zelena co-opted Dark Curse to steal all their memories). / Parting from Emma and Henry at the Town Line (?) (moved on with their lives, and had another child, but eventually reunited with Emma).

Neal/Baelfire: The moment Rumple abandoned him and let him fall through the portal alone. (Sacrificed himself to save the Darlings from the Shadow) / When he realized that his mother had abandoned him as well. (Slowly turned into a bitter jerk) / Watching Rumple die and parting from Henry at the Town Line (Brought Rumple back from the dead using Dark Magic to help reunite him with Henry and Emma, and got himself killed. But was able to move on to "heaven" after death).

Rumple: When Malcolm abandoned little Rumple in Neverland. (Wanted to make different choices from his father, but ultimately failed) / When Neal revived him, but he had to subsume Neal to save his life, and ended up Zelena's slave, and then Neal died. (Pretty soon got back to being a selfish a**hole) / Belle kicked him out of the Town Line and he was powerless in the Real World (?). (Same as before)

Consistently, people who reacted to trauma by trying to move on positively are shown to be "rewarded" in the Show. Those who ended up pursuing revenge, came to grief, unless and until they changed their mind and gave it up. Of the "villains", Killian started out reacting poorly to tragedies/loss, but ultimately made a series of right choices. Neal started out making heroic choices, but got derailed later on.  Regina stopped pursuing revenge, but is still attempting to run away from personal responsibility. Rumple is still Rumple. 

Edited July 8, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

I've been thinking of "rock bottom" in terms of a low point that inspires change -- that sense of "I really need to make different life choices." But there are still other low points that work as suffering that helps form who a person is or that gives the audience a sense of karmic justice.

So, for instance, while the torture in the Underworld immediately on the heels of having been made into a Dark One and then killed might have been the worst thing to happen to Hook (because, you know, dead), I don't think it put him in real rock-bottom territory emotionally. He held on to hope, held on to his values, and refused to cave, even to end his own suffering. It was a physical low point, but not an emotional one, and I don't think it changed who he was. I think his true rock-bottom point was when he was sailing away with the last magic bean, looked down at the carving of the compass points he'd done for Bae, and realized just what a louse he was -- that was built up to by his realization that revenge did no good, that he'd wasted his life for nothing, and that his actions had made everyone hate him. Now he was leaving Bae's son to die and generally being so awful that even if he saved his own life, he wouldn't be able to live with himself. That was his emotional rock bottom that made him want to change.

With Regina, I don't know that they've shown us that point for her. She may have given up on revenge, but I don't think we ever saw that epiphany, the moment where she realized, like Hook, that revenge had brought her nothing but misery, and where she made the decision to change her life so she could change her circumstances. The closest I can think of was when she was trying to hold Henry captive early in season two and then saw him being afraid of her. She did start trying to be better then, but I never got the feeling that there was any remorse for what she'd done (in fact, she later said she had no regrets). She just didn't like the way Henry saw her, and that's why she changed, and then the flip-flopping started after that. I don't know that she's truly had an "I've lost everything" moment, since she never really has lost everything. It's not like she was really run out of town or ostracized after the curse.

Rumple just hits rock bottom and starts digging.

I really wish we'd seen more of Bae's transition to Neal. Did it happen gradually during the long years in Neverland when he lost hope, or did it happen when he finally escaped and found himself in 20th century America, utterly alone and with no resources? He was in dire straits when he first landed in London, but would it have been even worse in a different era, or would it have been easier?

Emma's rock-bottom turning point should have been giving birth in jail and having to give up the child, but then they threw in the flashback suggesting that she committed more crimes after getting out of jail and didn't turn her life around until later.

Snow's may have been having to give David up to save his life, leading to her taking that anti-love potion. Ever since then, she's been relentlessly optimistic and refusing to give up hope (unless the writers suddenly need her to be terribly pessimistic about her daughter).

Maybe it's that giving up all hope that marks the rock-bottom moment. It's the time when all seems lost, and someone can either sink into despair and give up or pull themselves together and turn the situation around.

[Writing Wrongs]

I've started my Season 4 re-watch. All I can think about is the Zelena as Marian bullshit. Why wasn't Zelena's heart blackened when Regina pulled it out? How could the glamour stay when she was immobilized and frozen? So many wtfs. And I don't understand why magical people can't sense each other's magic.

I also hated Regina's author idea. The book isn't just stories, it's their history. Of course, Regina was written as a villain, she behaved like one. How does it make sense that the author could change their history? So. Much. Hate.

[Camera One]

It looks like these stories aren't any better upon rewatch.  The former one rewatching now knowing the outcome that Zelena was Marian, and the latter one rewatching a premise which was already unbelievable and dumb the first time around.

Speaking of rewatching knowing what will happen, remember when people postulating that Arthur's servant turned into green smoke so maybe he wasn't dead?  He was also MIA in Underbrooke after Arthur died.

[Mari]

2 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I've started my Season 4 re-watch. All I can think about is the Zelena as Marian bullshit. Why wasn't Zelena's heart blackened when Regina pulled it out? How could the glamour stay when she was immobilized and frozen? So many wtfs. And I don't understand why magical people can't sense each other's magic.

I also hated Regina's author idea. The book isn't just stories, it's their history. Of course, Regina was written as a villain, she behaved like one. How does it make sense that the author could change their history? So. Much. Hate.

If I recall correctly, Adam H. or Jane E. tweeted out afterwards that Zelena's heart wasn't blackened because it was under the glamour.

Yes.  It was still under the glamour after it was physically separated from the amulet, Zelarian, and even when it was in a completely different place.

But, they totally didn't retcon that.  Totally.

As for Regina's author idea?  I think we were supposed to be interested in it because it was Regina doing it.  It wasn't  It really wasn't.  

If the coming season seems to be Regina, Regina, someone else, Regina, Regina, Regina, someone else, Regina?  I'm probably done.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Mari
Huh. There's only supposed to be one N in some words? Weird.

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I've started my Season 4 re-watch. All I can think about is the Zelena as Marian bullshit. Why wasn't Zelena's heart blackened when Regina pulled it out? How could the glamour stay when she was immobilized and frozen? So many wtfs. And I don't understand why magical people can't sense each other's magic.

Let's forget for a second about the non blackened heart. Technically, Zelena's heart can't even be taken because she has a protection spell on it, which is something we've been told at least a couple of times. 

They came up with the idea late in the game, and were probably super happy Bex had nothing lined up. Imagine if she wasn't available, maybe they would have completely trashed Marian's character to justify Robin taking Roland and going back to Storybrooke without her. Everyone would have been, oh it's fine, Marian is such a meanie to poor self-sacrificing Robin, she doesn't deserve good things in her life. Not that Robin was all that great with his wishy washy behavior.

[Camera One]

They could have done a flashback where Marian made a deal with Rumple where she had to kill Friar Tuck to be with Robin Hood.  Heck, that could have been a bonus episode in Underbrooke.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

The discussion revolving around how little we know about S6 other than the Evil Queen and these "untold stories" has just brought home to me how little interest I have in the new season. If the focus is a bunch of random characters running around, I'm out. Why am I putting this in the all seasons thread? Because I'd like to review just why I have absolutely zero interest in new random characters and neither should anyone else. Let's look at the side characters whose tales we were given which never received any closure.

Season 1

• Kathryn & Frederick. Whatever did happen to Frederick? Did those two find each other again? We'll never know. Thanks, show.
• Grumpy & Nova. Can they be together now? They spent an entire episode around them and then never bothered to close it out (the Good Morning Storybooke thing, which I've never seen, doesn't cut it)
• Graham. His murder meant nothing.
• Genie/Sidney Glass. He was locked in the asylum for four seasons. What the hell happened to him during the reverse curse? Where is he now? What the hell?

Season 2

• King George. He murdered Gus Gus and destroyed the hat. He cared about the peasants. He cared about James. He was an interesting character. Where the hell is he? Does no one care that David chained him up in the caves? Did anyone remember to feed him when they ran off to Neverland? What about the reverse curse?
• Where did Phillip go? How did they get him back? Did he survive the S3 monkeyfication?
• Greg/Owen and Kurt Flynn. Kurt was murdered. It meant nothing. (I'm seeing a pattern here with Regina's murders in Storybrooke. According to the show, she wasn't the Evil Queen either)
• Tamara. What was the point of her?

Season 3

• Neal/Bae. What was his story? He died and apparently now he's a hero for being dumb as a box of hair. How did he go from awesome Bae to crappy Neal?
• Tinkerbell. Where is she? 
• The Darlings. Did they get to go home? How's Wendy dealing with modern life? Did they have a home to even go to? What about the awesome Darling parents? They lost all of their children. 
• Walsh. Is he dead?

Season 4

• Lily. Don't care about her at all, but why dedicate two episodes to her and add the stupid dragon father thing? 
• Will. Where did he go? Where is Ana? Is the poor guy still getting drunk and digging on the beach?
• Marian. She died. No one cares and it means nothing. (There's that pattern again.)

Season 5

• Guinevere. She was given multiple episodes. She seemed awesome and then got sanded. Is she still brainwashed? Where is she? Are all the Camelotians still sanded? Since the entirety of Camelot was a product of the sand, does it still exist if everyone is de-sanded?
• Lancelot. Is he still looking for his mother? Where the hell is he? Will he ever get to be with Guinevere?
• Robin. He never got a point of view and then he died.
• Milah. Is she screwed forever?
• Auntie Em. Is she also screwed forever?
• Gaston. Is he too screwed forever?

Every character listed here (except Auntie Em) appeared in multiple episodes. All of them had at least one centric devoted to or deeply involving them. This would imply the show wants me to care about them and be looking for a resolution to their stories. If someone is murdered, it should have repercussions. If an episode title literally asks the question about what happened to a character, there should be an answer. Season 5 was by far the worst at wrapping things up for their side characters. Now you could argue that we don't really care about some of these characters, but the show gave them screentime and gave many of them very important roles, so there is an expectation that we would get some kind of satisfying resolution other than just disappearing or dying with no real effect on anything. Explain to me why I should care at all about any new character in Season 6. They aren't going to get closure. I'd love it if someone would ask this question of Adam & Eddy and list just a few of the examples from above. Tell me why I should have any interest in these untold stories when I know they will never go anywhere.

[kingshearte]

"Well, you see, we really want to get into all of that, because those are really fascinating stories, but Regina's story right now is really compelling, and we want to get deeper into that. But we definitely want to explore all that other stuff."

Does that sound about right?

[Camera One]

Well said, KAOS Agent.  It's interesting how A&E expect us to be excited to see someone like Lancelot again, but then they let him just disappear into the ether with zero resolution.  

Even when they bring someone back, they miss the obvious emotional beats.  A key example is bringing August back in 4B, and then not giving him a single scene with Gepetto.  Or bringing back Red, but giving her zero scenes with Granny.  One is left with the vague sense that we really shouldn't care about Gepetto or Granny as characters, even though in Season 1, they seemed to make a conscious effort to give them a backstory.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Even when they bring someone back, they miss the obvious emotional beats.  A key example is bringing August back in 4B, and then not giving him a single scene with Gepetto.  Or bringing back Red, but giving her zero scenes with Granny.  One is left with the vague sense that we really shouldn't care about Gepetto or Granny as characters, even though in Season 1, they seemed to make a conscious effort to give them a backstory.

I think that's becasue of their plot-driven writing. If they really cared about Granny or Red as characters, they would have written a scene for them. While that relationship was important to the telling of Red's story in S1, the S5 focus had shifted to the LGBTQ romance plot for Red. So, the Granny & Red relationship is dropped by the wayside. Same with Gepetto and August. In S5, August was just a plot device to reintroduce the concept of the Author and be Emma's "great" friend. 

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Kathryn & Frederick. Whatever did happen to Frederick? Did those two find each other again? We'll never know. Thanks, show.

This one was really odd, considering how much they focussed on the whole MM/Davide "affair" angle. There should have been at least one awkward meeting between the parties involved after the Curse broke. Instead, Kathryn randomly showed up at Snowflake's so-called "coronation" (a bizarre thing to call a naming ceremony).

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Genie/Sidney Glass. He was locked in the asylum for four seasons. What the hell happened to him during the reverse curse? Where is he now? What the hell?

We sort-of got a resolution to that. Ingrid freed him in return for betraying Regina, and he walked off. By "reverse curse" do you mean the missing year in the Enchanted Forest? Who knows where he went?

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Milah. Is she screwed forever?

Auntie Em. Is she also screwed forever?

Even though I wasn't satisfied that they left the fates of Milah et al hanging, I feel they began to address this issue in Last Rites, when a wraith from the Lost Souls river attacked Killian and Arthur. Killian observed that things had started changing in the UW, and Arthur may be able to set things right. I have a feeling that if A&E decide to bring Ruby and Dorothy back, they'll go on an adventure to the UW to save poor auntie Em and other Lost Souls. But with A&E's track record, I'm not holding my breath.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

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I feel they began to address this issue in Last Rites, when a wraith from the Lost Souls river attacked Killian and Arthur. Killian observed that things had started changing in the UW

I know some people were satisfied with that, but I too wasn't, especially when they promptly showed one of the Lost Souls being burned into oblivion.  Then again, these are the same writers who think that the "heroes" would have no problem shooting at their "friends" turned into Flying Monkeys.  

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 Instead, Kathryn randomly showed up at Snowflake's so-called "coronation" (a bizarre thing to call a naming ceremony).

That was solely to support/review the adventure in the alt universe.  Did they even give Storybrooke Kathryn a line?  I heard they had a short deleted scene with Kathryn and Frederick... apparently, this show is about happy endings but their happy ending's rightful place was the cutting room floor.

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Ingrid freed him in return for betraying Regina, and he walked off.

Again, this character return was just used for plot, as a "surprise twist".  Sidney's response to Regina when she opened his prison cell made no sense.  In all of these cases... the character being brought back wasn't actually the main concern of the Writers.  Even when a returning character's cameo episode WAS pretty good (eg. Ariel in "The Jolly Roger"), it wasn't even about Ariel... since it was yet another "She's Actually Zelena!" twist.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Then again, these are the same writers who think that the "heroes" would have no problem shooting at their "friends" turned into Flying Monkeys.

And yet we get lectures on "heroes don't kill," a dark spot on the heart, lots of angst, and still bringing it up years later and calling it "murder" when the heroes kill a mass-murdering villain who's on the verge of destroying the town.

Basically, if you're not one of the regular characters, you only matter when your life briefly intersects with the main characters, and otherwise, you're forgotten. Unless you're connected to Regina, I guess.

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

I think that's becasue of their plot-driven writing.

That's the key. When it's important to the plot, you matter. The dark spot on the heart stuff set up Snow not being willing to let Regina die of the failsafe, and Regina as victim in Cora's death set up her setting up the failsafe. Cora may or may not have been forgotten otherwise. Kathryn was an obstacle to David and Snow, and no longer mattered when she wasn't.

Have we even seen Marco/Gepetto's reaction to having August back instead of young Pinocchio? Poor guy. It's like having an 11-12 year old, where you never know whether you've got a would-be adult who doesn't want to be babied or a kid who wants to be coddled, except literally. One day he has a child, the next, an adult. Will he go back to being a kid? I suppose that depends on what they need him for, plotwise, and actor availability.

[KAOS Agent]

I skipped over the Pinocchio story in my initial post because they initially did close it out. Sure, it took an entire season to get back to Pinocchio, but they did get there. There was a bunch of stupid randomness with Tamara and the Dragon that was opened but never closed out. Geppetto's actions were never addressed with any real consequences. Snow was absolutely right to slap him and more should have come from what was set up as a big thing, but whatever. August "died" and was changed back into the young boy and reunited with Geppetto. Happy ending. 

And then 4B happened. Regina berates a small child for not being able to help her. She then kidnaps him and after promising Emma to protect him, allows him to be transformed back into an adult and tortured. He was supposedly on the brink of death due to this magic change and torture. So is he okay? Are there any long term health issues from the torture? Is he still an adult now? Did Geppetto once again lose his young child? It's nice that Regina screwed them over again in her pursuit of a happy ending that she later declared was already hers to have. But we're not supposed to care I guess. This is why I refuse to get invested in any new or returning characters. They always enter only to serve the plot and are often screwed over with no regard to what happens to them afterwards. 

Edited July 12, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

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Guinevere. She was given multiple episodes. She seemed awesome and then got sanded. Is she still brainwashed? Where is she? Are all the Camelotians still sanded? Since the entirety of Camelot was a product of the sand, does it still exist if everyone is de-sanded?

Since they actually filmed something for the 5A finale and then abandoned it, I wonder if this was addressed in the original conception. Much as I enjoyed team Stubble Sandwich in the Underworld, it makes me wonder why the writers dropped Guinevere et al like a hot potato. Wasn't the actress available? Did they not want to pay for her? It's so infuriating when they leave important questions unanswered and drop plots all over the place. Ugh...

[Curio]

13 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

1. Kathryn & Frederick
2. Grumpy & Nova
3. Graham
4. Genie/Sidney Glass
5. King George
6. Phillip
7. Greg/Owen and Kurt Flynn
8. Tamara
9. Neal/Bae
10. Tinkerbell
11. The Darlings
12. Walsh
13. Lily
14. Will
15. Marian
16. Guinevere
17. Lancelot
18. Robin
19. Milah
20. Auntie Em
21. Gaston

I decided to use a numerical list for the characters you listed, @KAOS Agent, because it really shows how many characters A&E forgot about over the years. And yet, they felt like we had to go back to "Season 1 Roots" and are introducing a whole new crop of characters in Season 6 because they want to tell those side-characters' stories instead of fleshing out the numerous Storybrooke citizens that already exist. But the odds are this new crop of characters will end up just like this useless list of characters. Why should I care about the plethora of Untold Story characters when I know most of their stories will have no proper resolution and will take up precious screen time from the main characters I'm actually invested in? 

[Shanna Marie]

Kathryn and Frederick were at least somewhat resolved, since we saw them run into each other at the school, though we haven't seen them together since the curse broke. With Grumpy and Nova, I'm afraid too much time has passed to go back to them -- wouldn't they have dealt with whatever they were going to do before now? Then again, aside from the missing year, it's only been a few months. Is she held by vows she didn't ever actually take? Does the thing about fairies not loving apply when they're human? Has Blue changed her position any after the things she's seen and experienced, after being human? That could have been really interesting to deal with in the missing year, if Grumpy and Nova had got together after the curse broke and were ripped apart again once she returned to being a fairy and he returned to being a dwarf. If they wanted to get back to that, Amy Acker should be available now (though to be honest, I'd prefer not because Nova was so annoying and I'd finally reached a point where I loved Amy Acker after Person of Interest. I don't want to ruin that. We should only get Nova back if it turned out that she went off and got trained as an assassin since we last saw her).

I feel like Philip's plight might have been applicable in all the Underworld stuff, and it feels like a gaping hole that they left it as "oh no, no one can ever come back from this!" and then the next time we see him he's back with no explanation. With King George, I think there's more story potential to him, but I don't know that his story is necessarily unresolved. He's paying for his crimes. I just wish we'd seen something of how George and Regina were defeated. Snow and Charming were living in George's palace, so did they unite the kingdoms and rule them? Did Charming ever publicly admit that he wasn't really Prince James, or did he take over the throne under that guise? And if they took over the kingdoms, then why are they still "prince and princess" instead of "queen and king"?

Really, most of these issues come back to season two being so badly botched and scattershot. They needed to deal with all the open issues from season one before they moved on to other big arcs. I know they were excited about getting to do Peter Pan, but couldn't that have waited half a season rather than just tossing everything they'd been setting up out the window? Was there an expiration date on getting to use Peter Pan?

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Serena said:

The stabbing didn't work because Rumple had cast a curse that made Regina unable to harm Snow and Charming. I distincly remember it because it made me so mad that they would let her go, because she was perfectly able to hurt other people and Snow, having seen the village she mass-murdered, was completely aware that she would, too. It was such a stupid plot, because all Regina had to do was say, "Hey, come here and surrender yourself to me, otherwise I'll kill this random kid." and she would have won.

This infuriated me as well. This made the Charmings look like rather self-centered ineffectual rulers. Forget about a random kid. Regina could harm Charming, I suppose! She could get to Snow that way. Regina should have been in prison, no matter what. Then we got the stupid Medusa story when Snow suddenly decides to kill Regina because she could now harm their child. Then, they decide to enjoy their "moments" and end up getting swept into the slowest Curse ever!! Such sloppy writing. 

[YaddaYadda]

4 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

This infuriated me as well. This made the Charmings look like rather self-centered ineffectual rulers. 

Snowing are really not that great as people. They're not just ineffectual, they're also pretty selfish. Considering the villages that Regina had slaughtered, the people that died to protect Snow during her bandit years, you'd think that as a ruler, she'd return the favor and remove the biggest threat to everyone's well-being and happiness. 

Let's put a face on the people that tried to protect Snow.

So Percival's village was leveled because war and he carried that for the rest of his life.

Marian was imprisoned and sat in a jail cell waiting to be executed because she protected Snow. 

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

Snowing are really not that great as people. They're not just ineffectual, they're also pretty selfish. Considering the villages that Regina had slaughtered, the people that died to protect Snow during her bandit years, you'd think that as a ruler, she'd return the favor and remove the biggest threat to everyone's well-being and happiness. 

Let's put a face on the people that tried to protect Snow.

So Percival's village was leveled because war and he carried that for the rest of his life.

Marian was imprisoned and sat in a jail cell waiting to be executed because she protected Snow. 

Snow has consistently placed a higher value on Regina's life than anyone else's. There's nothing to explain it other than guilt. So I agree that it doesn't make her a good leader, or even a good person. All the people who died to protect Snow wasted their sacrifice. 

[Curio]

That flashback didn't do Regina any favors, either. Whenever Regina whines about having to give Zelena a "second second chance" and is generally hypocritical about anything, I think about all the numerous times Snow saved Regina's life and gave her a second chance at redemption, only for Regina to spit at her feet and attempt to murder more people. 

It's also why I don't buy the Evil Regals' (and Lana's) theory that Regina didn't actually want to murder Snow. Bullshit. We've been shown numerous times in canon that Regina did legitimately attempt to kill Snow, but that pesky magic somehow always got in the way. Regina stabbed Snow with a dagger after Snow graciously let her out of the prison with the full intent of killing her. Regina burned Snow at the stake with the full intent of killing her. Regina crushed "Snow's" heart with the full intent of killing her during the birthday party. I could go on...

[YaddaYadda]

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Snow has consistently placed a higher value on Regina's life than anyone else's. There's nothing to explain it other than guilt. So I agree that it doesn't make her a good leader, or even a good person. All the people who died to protect Snow wasted their sacrifice. 

You're right about Snow's guilt. She said it before, she considers herself the reason why Regina went down the wrong path, never mind Regina's own responsibility and choices. Sure, she was also manipulated by Rumple, but no one twisted her arm into doing anything. Snow also has some mommy issues.

I shouldn't have said Snowing in my post. It's Snow and her ideas. David just needs to stand his ground, grow a pair, especially since he has been made to be right often. That includes how they have to get rid of Regina, and how they shouldn't suck the darkness out of Emma, or how they should tell Emma the truth. He always does as Snow says. I don't know how Snow managed to survive for so long on her own. She doesn't have the soundest judgement.

[Camera One]

When Snow is actually right, once in a blue moon, she gets ignored too.  Like when she told Regina not to have Dark Emma save Robin in 5A, or when she and Charming said it wasn't a good idea to let The Author out of the page, or to let the Queens of Darkness come into town, etc.  The plot runs on the stupidity of the heroes, specifically on their tendency to hope, give people the benefit of the doubt, etc.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

I shouldn't have said Snowing in my post. It's Snow and her ideas. David just needs to stand his ground, grow a pair, especially since he has been made to be right often. That includes how they have to get rid of Regina, and how they shouldn't suck the darkness out of Emma, or how they should tell Emma the truth. He always does as Snow says.

David bears responsibility for going along with Snow's moronic ideas. Where's the partnership in a marriage where one of them gets to call all the shots? Snow doesn't exactly force David to do anything, but she is very stubborn, and goes off on her own to do the thing even when David disagrees with her. And eventually, David gives in becasue he loves Snow that much. I don't think the writers see it as a flaw, so good luck with them ever dealing with that as an issue.

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

The plot runs on the stupidity of the heroes, specifically on their tendency to hope, give people the benefit of the doubt, etc.

Sad to say, both the heroes and villains are not exactly bright, but the so called "heroes" and reforming "villains" tend to act in a particularly stupid manner. The most recent example was trusting baby Green to an unstable newly "reformed" Zelena and Hades of all people! That was inexcusable. 

[orza]

Charming, Snow and especially Emma have always been portrayed as not too bright, and that's fine. Not everyone is smart. They have been very consistent about that. They have also been very consistent about showing that the heroes are not the shining examples of goodness, kindness and morality portrayed in the source material. Snow is a product of her time and her upbringing. She grew up as pampered royalty in a feudal society with the attitude, privilege and sense of entitlement that comes with that. She has never really given up that sense of entitlement. She thinks of herself and her family but not much beyond that. She was a weak indecisive ruler. Emma was a petty criminal and low life out for herself. She hasn't given up on that either. She still does unethical and illegal things as sheriff and in season 5 she did truly horrible things to benefit only herself and her boyfriend.

[tennisgurl]

A big problem I always have with Regina and Snow is that they never really talk about their issues, and are clearly uninterested in the actual moral implications of Snow letting Regina go free after she has done so much. And, as others have said, the flashbacks rarely do her any favors, and just keep showing Regina killing people and being horrible, and then asking us to feel bad for her. It we had just ONE PERSON tell Regina to screw off, and was not immediately made a bad guy, this might not be so bad. And, in showing how Regina is such a great person despite her many crimes and how everyone forgives her, it makes everyone look stupid at best, and horrible at worst. You can give a person a second chance, but there have to be some consequences. 

That all being said, this season was, to me, the best and most consistent Regina has been in a long time. She was consistently on the side of the good guys, her snark was less nasty than usual, and she did actually show some empathy from time to time. Not that I am drinking this shows Kool Aid, but I can at least stand for her to be in a scene. 

Edited July 17, 2016 by tennisgurl

[Curio]

9 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

That all being said, this season was, to me, the best and most consistent Regina has been in a long time. She was consistently on the side of the good guys, she snark was less nasty than usual, and she did actually show some empathy from time to time. 

For me, Regina was the most balanced/tolerable in Season 3. I thought she was way too hypocritical in Season 5, especially to Zelena and Emma.

[Rumsy4]

45 minutes ago, orza said:

Emma was a petty criminal and low life out for herself. She hasn't given up on that either. She still does unethical and illegal things as sheriff and in season 5 she did truly horrible things to benefit only herself and her boyfriend.

Yes--what a low life. Consistently sacrificing her own happiness to save other people. How dare she want any good thing for herself?!

21 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

That all being said, this season was, to me, the best and most consistent Regina has been in a long time. She was consistently on the side of the good guys, her snark was less nasty than usual, and she did actually show some empathy from time to time. 

Quote

For me, Regina was the most balanced/tolerable in Season 3. I thought she was way too hypocritical in Season 5, especially to Zelena and Emma.

I agree with both statements. While Regina was hypocritical in S5, at least she seemed to be making a consistent effort to be supporting and do the right thing. But in the finale, we're supposed to believe in retrospect that Regina hated doing anything good. So there went her character development. With Regina, her arcs always seem to about flip flopping.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

She was consistently on the side of the good guys, she snark was less nasty than usual, and she did actually show some empathy from time to time.

I do agree with this.  She fully participated in #SaveEmma and #SaveHook and thought about other people way more than in the past.  That's why I thought A&E stabbed themselves in the foot with the idiotic "I hate doing good" speech, woe is me crap, in the finale.  

[TheGreenKnight]

10 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Yes--what a low life. Consistently sacrificing her own happiness to save other people. How dare she want any good thing for herself?!

Both 5A and 5B's plots are predicated on Emma making decisions to save her relationship with Hook at the consequence of everyone else (enacting another Curse, then going to the Underworld). Not saying she's a villain by any means, but she's never been a pure white character.

[KAOS Agent]

I've never seen Emma as a white character. She's always been gray and I'd like her to stay that way. However, let's address a couple things:

Emma didn't enact another curse. She tried to stop it. In fact, she planned to work with Hook to get rid of the Dark Curse from both of them but Hook went off the chain with the Darkness and killed Merlin via Nimue and later brought the Dark Ones back. She also did what she had to do and killed Hook when it came down to saving everyone or keeping Hook. Even then the plan was to actually off herself to protect everyone. That's not villainy in my book. She recognized the mistake in saving Hook (a mistake she made while under great emotional distress as well as the influence of the greatest evil - an evil which many people use to dismiss Rumpel's many, many, many crimes) and was willing to kill herself or Hook to fix it.  

Going to the Underworld was something she planned to do on her own, but it's a TV show so everyone needed to trail along even though it made no sense for many of them to go. Why was Robin leaving his newborn? Why would Snowing leave their child? Who in their right mind would bring Henry? It's one of those things I have trouble assigning to a character because it's clearly a function of the writing, not organic to the actual story. They wanted all of those characters in the Underworld, so off they went even though it was stupid. If she'd gone alone like she wanted, I don't know if she'd have saved Hook, but none of the other crap would have happened either.

Emma didn't even really do anything in the Underworld. Captain Swan was simply the mechanism to get all the other characters where they wanted them and it was very inorganic and clumsily done. It's all due to plot based writing. A less polarizing example of this is Robin not naming his daughter for some ridiculous reason just so that they could name her Robin when he died. I don't blame Robin for not naming the kid because this was so clearly a function of them writing for the conclusion and thinking it would be all bittersweet and sentimental rather than actually caring about how dumb it was, not to mention how clearly it was broadcasting that Robin was totally going to die. The show has gotten more and more senseless in the characters' actions in the latest seasons and it's a large reason why I don't enjoy it even near as much as I did in earlier seasons.

[Curio]

53 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

The show has gotten more and more senseless in the characters' actions in the latest seasons and it's a large reason why I don't enjoy it even near as much as I did in earlier seasons.

Even in a show about fairy tales and magic, there has to be logic. It drives me batty that there's hardly any left.

[Rumsy4]

5 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Both 5A and 5B's plots are predicated on Emma making decisions to save her relationship with Hook at the consequence of everyone else (enacting another Curse, then going to the Underworld). Not saying she's a villain by any means, but she's never been a pure white character.

Emma is certainly not a purely white character, but that doesn't negate the fact that she has in fact consistently put aside her own life to help other people. As @KAOS Agent said, she did not enact the Dark Curse. Emma took on the Darkness to save Regina and everyone else in Storybrooke, and many of the bad decisions she made later were influenced by the Darkness. That doesn't absolve her of course, but she regretted every single one of her mistakes and corrected them. But it certainly does not make her a "selfish low-life" or a horrible person--merely a human one. 

As to going to the Underworld, her family and friends owed it her to accompany her, after everything she has done for them. Emma never asked for them to accompany her, and she felt guilty throughout, despite her mother's repeated assurances. She's so used to her family and friends not putting her first. As to Henry, he is a little brat, and never listens to his parents. He really would have found another of those "rare" portals and followed them, just as he claimed in the deleted scene. Robin was a fool to leave his daughter behind. Not to mention handing his daughter to Hades and Zelena on Regina's say so. But again, he was merely a prop for Regina, poor guy. 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

At least half of Snowing should have stayed behind to keep Snowflake from becoming an orphan, imo. To me, only Regina and Rumple had any real business going. Regina owes Emma pretty much everything and Rumple was the ticket over.

Edited July 18, 2016 by KingOfHearts
Maybe I should read entire posts before replying to them. Just a thought.

[Curio]

7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

To me, only Regina and Rumple had any real business going.

Yeah, and the main reason Regina and Rumple should have gone from a writing standpoint was to face their past victims...and the writers didn't even let them do that. In fact, they doubled down the opposite direction and made Rumple kill Milah again and Regina didn't have to apologize to a single Percivalesque victim. But hey, at least she got to save a horse!

(Still grumbling about the lack of Milah/Hook interaction...)

Edited July 18, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

On 7/17/2016 at 7:52 AM, YaddaYadda said:

Snowing are really not that great as people. They're not just ineffectual, they're also pretty selfish. Considering the villages that Regina had slaughtered, the people that died to protect Snow during her bandit years, you'd think that as a ruler, she'd return the favor and remove the biggest threat to everyone's well-being and happiness.

The weird thing is, the show presented Snow's decision as the right one. Wasn't that flashback in the present-day episode in which Cora had framed Regina for murdering Archie, and even though Regina had a track record of murder and even though all the evidence pointed at her, they were terrible, horrible people for suspecting her so unfairly? The general theme of the episode was that poor Regina was misunderstood and falsely accused, and it had been the right thing to do to let her go (never mind that she'd done the things she was accused of, tried to kill Snow even as Snow was showing her mercy, and went on to enact the curse after she was freed), so now they needed to show her the same kind of mercy and benefit of the doubt. Then this episode was followed by the mini-arc in which Snow taking decisive action to protect everyone from a threat was treated as her taking the easy way out and doing something so wrong that she got a dark spot on her heart and is still being called a murderer and is still apologizing for it.

I very nearly gave up on the show during this phase because it was so ridiculous that it was considered good and right for Snow to have let Regina go, in spite of what Regina went on to do, and so terribly wrong for her to have killed Cora. And meanwhile, Regina showed no gratitude whatsoever for mercy being shown to her. Snow sparing her life in spite of all she'd done still didn't take away Regina's desire for vengeance over Snow telling a secret as a child, which made Regina look even more unreasonable. It does seem to be a thing in this show that in order to be considered good, you have to be a doormat because fighting back against a bad person is bad, as is bringing a bad person to justice.

[Rumsy4]

Quote

To me, only Regina and Rumple had any real business going.

Either Snow or Charming should have stayed behind, but not both. If both had, that would have been selfish on their part. They have relied on Emma to save them from day one. For once in their lives, they needed to put her first. Even then they kept whining and comparing their days-old separation from Snowflake to Emma's orphaned and loveless childhood. Of course Baby Snowflake doesn't deserve to be deprived of his parents just becasue Emma grew up an orphan, but going to the UW to save Hook was the first time Emma's parents have done something for her happiness. That's why I loved Snow's "Love is worth it" speech. For once, her message of hope did not seem silly and out of place.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

And meanwhile, Regina showed no gratitude whatsoever for mercy being shown to her. Snow sparing her life in spite of all she'd done still didn't take away Regina's desire for vengeance over Snow telling a secret as a child, which made Regina look even more unreasonable.

Yep. This dialogue still makes me want to throw things at my screen:

Emma: We’re celebrating today because of Regina. She helped us get home. No matter what she did in the past, we owe her our thanks now.
Snow: Didn’t you think to tell us about it?
Emma: I did, but you two were a little busy this afternoon.
Snow: Emma, she tried to kill us...yesterday!
Emma: No, she didn’t. She’s trying to change for Henry. He believes in her. And right now, that’s enough for me. I couldn’t have changed if I wasn’t given a chance, so… She gets one, too.

Emma's my homegirl, but I swear she can lose 100 IQ points whenever she's handed the Regina Idiot Ball. Yes, Regina did try to kill everyone yesterday. And why didn't Snow use Emma's "we need to give her a chance" speech as a segue to tell Emma all about the flashback that was playing in that same episode? Snow should have responded, "Yes, and I gave Regina second chances many times. In fact, this very episode shows an example of me giving Regina a second chance. Do you want to know what happened, Emma? She stabbed me because I showed her generosity. And because I stopped her execution, she was also able to cast the Dark Curse, which was the reason I was forced to send you away and is the reason you grew up with no parents. But sure, go ahead and invite her to the party without knowing a single thing about her past relationship with me in the Enchanted Forest."

Edited July 18, 2016 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

It does make some sense that Emma could be slightly apologetic for Regina in S2. For one, she doesn't see her as the Evil Queen like everyone else does, and two, she is Henry's mother. Emma did see Regina break down in her insecurities just before the curse ended. But that being said, her attitude in The Cricket Game is ridiculous because it pulls a 180 only because of a crazy contrivance. Emma goes from sympathy to hatred in 0.2 seconds. No balance was ever struck. She either gave Regina a benefit of a doubt against all evidence, or let all her anger out in one swoop. I really hate that episode because it toys with emotions using a script instead of organic payoff. It all lives in Stupid Town.

Edited July 18, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

And we were somehow supposed to feel like Emma was a being a big meanie because she didn't think it was a good idea for Henry to stay at Regina's place at that time. Did everyone forget that Regina's poisonous baking skills practically killed Henry a few days earlier?

Oh. And this was also the episode where Regina questioned Emma's parenting skills because Regina was Henry's mother for 10 years while Emma only knew him for like 5 minutes. Hey, Regina...maybe Emma wasn't able to be a mother to Henry during those 10 years because of her abandonment issues that stemmed from her parentless childhood that had her bouncing around foster homes because of the Dark Curse you cast. 

This episode is the epitome of TS;TW.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Curio

[TheGreenKnight]

5 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Emma is certainly not a purely white character, but that doesn't negate the fact that she has in fact consistently put aside her own life to help other people. As @KAOS Agent said, she did not enact the Dark Curse. Emma took on the Darkness to save Regina and everyone else in Storybrooke, and many of the bad decisions she made later were influenced by the Darkness. That doesn't absolve her of course, but she regretted every single one of her mistakes and corrected them. But it certainly does not make her a "selfish low-life" or a horrible person--merely a human one. 

As to going to the Underworld, her family and friends owed it her to accompany her, after everything she has done for them. Emma never asked for them to accompany her, and she felt guilty throughout, despite her mother's repeated assurances. She's so used to her family and friends not putting her first. As to Henry, he is a little brat, and never listens to his parents. He really would have found another of those "rare" portals and followed them, just as he claimed in the deleted scene. Robin was a fool to leave his daughter behind. Not to mention handing his daughter to Hades and Zelena on Regina's say so. But again, he was merely a prop for Regina, poor guy. 

Well, the argument here was about how Emma isn't any better than Snow or Charming (who were ineffectual rulers), and I was agreeing.

As for being influenced by the Darkness: if Rumpel gets no pass for the awful things he's done while the Dark One, why should Emma? All I see is one standard for certain characters over others.

[Camera One]

 if Rumpel gets no pass for the awful things he's done while the Dark One, why should Emma?

I don't think people were giving Emma a pass.  They were noting that Emma felt deep remorse for what she did and beat herself up over it, and she does make a huge effort not to affect other people, in both 5A and 5B.  Ultimately, the worst thing she did was take Violet's heart.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

This episode is the epitome of TS;TW.

It's my least favorite episode of the entire series. It manages to be worse than: Breaking Glass, Bleeding Through, The S5 finale, and Selfless, Brave and True. This one offends me the most for the sheer amount of stupid character assassination across the board. It put in motion huge problems we're still dealing with to this day.

Edited July 18, 2016 by KingOfHearts