A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[KingOfHearts]

Yes to all of your post, justcris. I totally agree!

[Mathius]

The last minute flashback with his father didn't work for me, and shoehorning Regina into it really didn't work for me

I think the START of the flashback, with young Killian, worked wonderfully at explaining where Dark Hook was coming from. He was betrayed by someone he loved (his father) and essentially sold into slavery. Suddenly, his rage at Emma turning him into a slave to the Darkness he hated and controlling him against his will makes MUCH more sense.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Mathius

[YaddaYadda]

The flashback was really shoved in there. I get why they wanted to show it, and I think the flashback was to show that his father was truly still a weakness for him, even after centuries gone by. He may not have been able to forgive right that moment, but he was willing to forget how deeply he was hurt, and let him go, even after he found out he had another child. 

 

I think the breaking point for him was that he sort of killed his father to avenge what he did to Liam especially after he found out he named that kid after him. That for me was a pure revenge move on his part. 

 

It's interesting that Hook finds out he has a brother before Regina casts her curse, and a handful of months later, he is in the Echo Caves, with Emma, listening to Snow's secret about wanting a new baby.

 

He's standing there, and I'm thinking that he knew exactly what Emma is going through.

[justcris]

I think the START of the flashback, with young Killian, worked wonderfully at explaining where Dark Hook was coming from. He was betrayed by someone he loved (his father) and essentially sold into slavery. Suddenly, his rage at Emma turning him into a slave to the Darkness he hated and controlling him against his will makes MUCH more sense.

 

I agree that the beginning of the flashback with Killian's father abandoning them did in fact work, and gave us precious insight into Dark Hook's reaction to Emma's actions.. However, everything after that felt off to me. 

[KingOfHearts]

Two-thirds the way through 5A, the writers got bored of Merida, Dark Swan and Camelot and thought, "Hey! Wouldn't it be cool if Hook became a Dark One too and it was this epic tragedy?" There's a stark disconnect between the focus in 5x01-5x07 and 5x08-5x11. (I'm not counting 5x09.)

[Mathius]

Two-thirds the way through 5A, the writers got bored of Merida, Dark Swan and Camelot and thought, "Hey! Wouldn't it be cool if Hook became a Dark One too and it was this epic tragedy?" There's a stark disconnect between the focus in 5x01-5x07 and 5x08-5x11. (I'm not counting 5x09.)

 

I'd say it started in 5x07; there was very blatant set-up for the epic tragedy in that one.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'd say it started in 5x07; there was very blatant set-up for the epic tragedy in that one.

It did set up the remaining set, however it also focused a lot on Merlin and the Nevengers in Camelot stuff.

[Mathius]

Good point.  I guess it could be considered the transitional episode, then.

[Camera One]

Two-thirds the way through 5A, the writers got bored of Merida, Dark Swan and Camelot and thought, "Hey! Wouldn't it be cool if Hook became a Dark One too and it was this epic tragedy?" There's a stark disconnect between the focus in 5x01-5x07 and 5x08-5x11. (I'm not counting 5x09.)

 

Maybe they worked backwards.  They knew they wanted a big Episode 100 with their favorites they want to bring back (Hmm.. wonder if they're heroes or villains).  But then, they'd need to go to the Underworld.  How to get there?  How about Hook "dies"?  But we don't want to reveal the Hook-is-Dark-One shocker until 2/3rds into the season.  Okay, let's slow them down with Arthur and drag things out with Merlin.  Darn, 2 more episodes left!  How about Merida!  

Edited December 12, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I'm trying to understand the points of Season 4B and 5A, which were both centered around Rumple's black heart, and defeating the Dark One. With Rumple regaining his Dark One status, everything is back to square one now. Emma had some really good defining moments, but couldn't they have done that AND made some changes in the status quo? Rumple is back being a Dark One and is deceiving Belle again. The heroes are off on yet another mission to save someone. Emma is back being the savior. The writers just love pushing the reset button every half-season. It all seems so pointless sometimes. lol

[OnceUponAJen]

I just hope Emma gets the happiest ending ever when all this is over. And I wouldn't mind actually seeing a bit of her happy life, just to wrap things up!

[Camera One]

With Rumple regaining his Dark One status, everything is back to square one now. 

 

That's a good point.  Rumple is at the EXACT same spot as he was in mid-4A.  Becoming a "hero" did nothing to his character, which highlights what a waste of time it was.  In mid-5A, I thought it was ridiculous how Excalibur would consider him to be hero enough to pull the sword, and that plot point in hindsight is even more egregiously nonsensical.

 

What long-term effect did the Dark Emma have on Snow and Charming?  None.  What effect did it have on Regina?  None.  Robin?  Even more than none.  On Emma herself?  Basically similar to what 4B did to Snowing.  Now she needs to feel guilt over the Violet incident and on her whole "dark" period.  On Hook?  Since he worked through most of his guilt in Season 3-4, now he has fresh guilt to work through.  

 

Everything in 5A just extenuated the status quo.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Camera One

[Dianthus]

Unicorns that fart glitter and a fountain spouting precious gems in every color of the rainbow!!111!!

[Writing Wrongs]

Season 1 will always top my list. I find it highly enjoyable to watch over and over. I love "Snow Falls" and all things Snowing.

 

What was the point of making Henry the Author? Is that gonna go anywhere or be another dropped plotline?

[Rumsy4]

That's a good point.  Rumple is at the EXACT same spot as he was in mid-4A.  Becoming a "hero" did nothing to his character, which highlights what a waste of time it was.  In mid-5A, I thought it was ridiculous how Excalibur would consider him to be hero enough to pull the sword, and that plot point in hindsight is even more egregiously nonsensical.

 

The "insta-hero" Rumple thing was so hokey. It makes sense that didn't stick. With Belle declaring Emma was just like Rumple, I was afraid the writers were whitewashing him. At least they didn't do that. But they did nothing else either. I guess Rumple is now the Darkest Dark to Ever Dark. Just like Emma has the greatest potential for Evil. Blue Fairy gave the last magic bean to Baelfire. And there was only one enchanted tree to build a wardrobe portal. The superlatives never stop. lol

 

What was the point of making Henry the Author? Is that gonna go anywhere or be another dropped plotline?

 

I guess he's using it as pickup line? :-p

[KingOfHearts]

 

Just like Emma has the greatest potential for Evil.

And yet as the Dark One, she never did anything particular "evil", just impulsive. Planning to murder Zelena was probably the darkest thing she did, true, but that's obviously nothing compared to the atrocities committed from other characters on this show. While I understand the "great light = great darkness" concept, there's really nothing else given to show Emma could be the darkest person ever. It makes about as much sense as that SDCC clip.

 

 

What was the point of making Henry the Author? Is that gonna go anywhere or be another dropped plotline?

It's the writers' way of stating that Henry is growing up without actually writing anything but dialogue. Author, Hero, Villain, Savior, Dark Swan... it's all pretentious lip service.

Edited December 13, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

I'm trying to understand the points of Season 4B and 5A

 

There really isn't any.  Much of 3B and 4A was also pointless in the long run.  That's the biggest problem with the show following the 3A finale.  From "Pilot" to "Going Home", the show was telling a continuous story.  But afterward, it's just half-season after half-season of individual stories thinly linked together and never changing anything about the comfy status quo that the writers established for Storybrooke and the characters in 3B.  Things happen, but nothing changes.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

Emma choosing Storybrooke as home at the end of 3B was a return to the status quo too. At the end of 3A, she didn't want to leave. She just goes back to that, really. Regina's epiphany in 4B had already been said many times. It was just part of her flip-flopping. She was back to her questionable morality in 5A.

Edited December 13, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Writing Wrongs]

I was trying to figure this out: The QoD Ursula is not the same as The Little Mermaid Ursula, is that right? She is not the one that was in the Ariel episode where Regina impersonated her? She was just named after the original one? If so, that was kind of false advertising on the part of the show, lol.

[Serena]

Basically, Ursula couldn't be both an uber-powerful goddes and an oh-so-tragic victim. The Ursula from "Ariel" would have eaten everyone for breakfast, not cried because she couldn't sing pretty anymore.

[KingOfHearts]

The Ursula from 3A was a goddess. I'm not sure if QoD Ursula was one too, but she was named after her.

 

As a location, the town has become generic and irrelevant except giving a reason to dress everyone for modern clothes.

Electricity and running water is really the only reason they're living in Storybrooke. It's funny how casual the Camelot trip was, or even the Missing Year for that matter. The Charmings and Mills might as well all be living in Knifington Palace. It is a giant castle with gorgeous CGI views, after all. But I guess Snow White and Prince Charming prefer a tiny loft apartment created as part of their punishment? I don't know. Maybe if Mary Margaret and David were calculated in it at all, their comfort in Storybrooke would be more validated.

 

The writers don't even bother to give us any reasons besides a couple gag lines like Happy whining about his DVR or Isaac wanting room service in his fantasy. That's what makes 3B so weak. The meaning of it hinges entirely on Emma (and by extension, her family and the citizens) choosing Storybrooke as their home. After leaving it for a year, all going back to their lives before the curse (although happier for most of them), it's only chosen out of convenience. No one misses their homeland, no one cares to see the outside world but Belle. It's very boring, which is an insult to a show about fairy tales living in modern day America.

 

What's funny is what comes before the 3B home affirmation. In 2B, Snowing hatch a plan to transport everyone to the Enchanted Forest because they want to move there and they miss it. In 3A, they also talk about moving to Neverland due to Charming's sickness. In the finale of that arc, Regina says (about Storybrooke), "It doesn't belong here, and neither do we." Which yes, makes sense since it was a curse. Anyone can just find the failsafe or rip the scroll, then poof - there goes Storybrooke. Great long-term planning, 3B.

 

Storybrooke is not even that good a place to live. There's monsters smashing cars and witches choking people all the time. Anyone sensible would want to hightail it out of there for their own safety. Belle was going to twice, but she can't because reasons. (Like Rumple's pure heroism and Henry's phone call.) The writers are too scared to lift curses from the townline, due to the fact an exodus or invasion plot would be too complex or realistic for them. They failed it in 2B with Greg and Tamara and they don't want to try again. How much more ridiculous are these town barriers going to get though? Dopey turned into a tree. Will the next curse turn people into tacos? What's the point of being in the real world when you're cornered off?

Edited December 13, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Storybrooke is not even that good a place to live.

 

And then they threw in that lame DVD extra about three people who wanted to get out of town.  How about trying to do some world-building in-show.  Sheesh.

 

And what the hell was the point of turning into a tree at the town line with the new Curse.  Was this Merlin's doing or what?  Why would the writers throw in crap with zero point to it.  

 

Look at that magical mushroom thingy which was the entire focus of "Siege Perilous".  Yes, the mushroom came up again, so on paper, it's congrats time to the Writers for continuity.  But if you look at the bigger picture, the mushroom allowed Henry to hear that Obi Wan Kinobe message from Merlin which STILL MAKES NO SENSE.  Yes, they found out Arthur was evil, but even that was pointless.  Dark Emma knew that all along!  

 

We could also look at 5A as a whole now by seeing if it was necessary for each character to go to Camelot.  Robin Hood for example, had ZERO purpose in Camelot.  The only thing he did was almost die, which forced Emma to use her Dark One magic to save him.  But here's the thing... did curing Robin have an impact on Dark Emma long-term?  Was it the reason why she eventually became dark enough to take Violet's heart?  Who the hell knows!  So if Robin hadn't gone, the whole operation would have gone better.  

 

Now what about Zelena?  I suppose one could argue that she was essential in the heroes being able to get into the castle and get Excalibur.  But surely, there could have been other ways to accomplish that.  Merlin and Lancelot didn't know secret ways to get into the castle?  They couldn't have drawn Arthur out?  Used some sort of magic to get in?  If Zelena hadn't gone to Camelot; heck, if they got Granny and all the Dwarves to guard her, Hook wouldn't have died, and all Dark One magic would be destroyed by now.  

 

My main problem with this show is almost every climax hinged on one of the heroes (or more often, all of them) being stupid.  Which makes the entire story frustrating as hell.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

My main problem with this show is almost every climax hinged on one of the heroes (or more often, all of them) being stupid.  Which makes the entire story frustrating as hell.

 

I agree. It's hard to have to constantly root for idiots. 

[october]

My main problem with this show is almost every climax hinged on one of the heroes (or more often, all of them) being stupid.  Which makes the entire story frustrating as hell.

 

I agree. I hated watching them stride through Storybrooke in the mid-season finale with no constructive plan of how to confront Hook or the Dark Ones, no discussion of calling in re-enforcements or of warning the rest of the town. You'd think years of facing crisis after crisis would've given them enough cause to have some kind of disaster plan in place. It doesn't need to be shown in detail; a bit of lip service to show the town's mayor and sheriffs actually doing their jobs and reinforcing a town that comes under some form of magical attack every few weeks would be good. I'm getting sick of this show's obsession with saviours and heroes. Give us competent adults first, guys.

[Camera One]

It's the same thing every half season.  They walk into scenarios and then luck out.  Or they just rely on "faith" or "I believe in you."   Or they just react to whatever new deus ex machina comes up.  They believe whatever they're told.  They don't use the wisdom or the knowledge available to them.   

 

Most shows I've liked had a research component.  Belle running in with random information doesn't count.  

 

Meanwhile, the mega villains have the plan.  Usually, convoluted, yes, but they get to be calculated.

[andromeda331]

In 2B, Snowing hatch a plan to transport everyone to the Enchanted Forest because they want to move there and they miss

I remember being surprised when Grumpy asked about going home, it would have been nice to hear why they

wanted to go. It would have be nice to hear who wanted to go and who wanted to stay if any of them. Not

all of their lives were great in the Enchanted Forest. Or maybe they liked where they were now. Snow

and Charming surprised me not because they wanted to go back but they assumed Emma would want to

go back. It seemed unlikely that Emma would want to do that. 

 

Then when they do finally all go back, we don't see any readjusting. After 30 years of modern conveniences

there should have been some if not a lot of adjusting. Also how easy Charming and Snow seem to get their

kingdom back. Why? They had been gone for 30 years and even after the Curse was broken they didn't

come back. People living their had no real reason to think any of them were coming back. You'd

think they'd had moved onto a different government or different people governing them.

[Jul 68]

All of this brings to mind a question. Why do the dwarfs sacrifice one of themselves each curse to see what would happen if they crossed the town line? Outside of Emma, Rumple, and Henry, they haven't shown that anyone has an interest in leaving. Maybe it's because of Leroy's constant flight reflex (which itself is out of character from his EF self).

[Shanna Marie]

Then when they do finally all go back, we don't see any readjusting. After 30 years of modern conveniences there should have been some if not a lot of adjusting.

This is one of those things that really gets me frustrated with this show. There's so much potential with fairy tale characters who've been living in a version of modern America for nearly 30 years, both in our world and in theirs. Once the curse broke and they got their memories and fairy tale identities back, did they make any changes to the way they lived? Did anyone decide they didn't want to do their Storybrooke job anymore and instead wanted to go back to their fairy tale occupation? I guess some of the dwarfs did, since Grumpy doesn't seem to be working as a hospital security guard anymore and is doing mining and other dwarf-type stuff. But otherwise, we aren't seeing any "old world" style shops opening. Hook managed to put together an outfit of modern clothes that kind of reflected his fairy tale identity, but no one else seems to have bothered.

 

And then when they went back, they just seem to have gone back. No bringing stuff they liked from Storybrooke with them. I guess we can't expect them to have decided they wanted an elected representative type government, since they never really had that in Storybrooke, but did Granny try to figure out a lasagna recipe to make using ingredients she could find in the Enchanted Forest? Are they playing modern rock music in outposts of the Ye Olde Tavern chain? Do people sit around the fire and tell stories about Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker?

 

They had been gone for 30 years and even after the Curse was broken they didn't come back. People living their had no real reason to think any of them were coming back.

I don't think there were people living there. The curse took everyone in the kingdom who wasn't in the Coradome, and the Coradome people were frozen all that time. When Team Princess was there in season 2, the Coradome people seemed to still be all huddled together and the land had been overrun by ogres. The return to the Enchanted Forest was only maybe a month or so at most after Team Princess left, so there wouldn't have been time for a society to have rebuilt as the people in the dome filtered out and settled in. I guess they can maybe thank Zelena for the ogres no longer being an issue, but she seems to have either totally missed the presence of Team Princess while living in Regina's castle, or she moved in and took over in that few weeks.

 

It does seem like Storybrooke has been depopulated from season to season. In season one and even in season two, it felt like a real town, with people living there and going in and out of shops and being on the sidewalks. Curse 2 doesn't seem to have been quite so widespread (Curse 1 got Prince Eric, but he was missed by Curse 2, and Hook was able to escape Curse 2, plus Camelot seems to have been frozen by and affected by Curse 1 but wasn't taken by Curse 2 in spite of there being no Coradome), so maybe there are fewer people now. Only now, all of Camelot is in town, and the streets are still so deserted that people can walk dramatically down the middle of Main Street without any worry about being hit by a car.

[Curio]

It does seem like Storybrooke has been depopulated from season to season.

 

It would be a great twist if the series finale revealed that the only people left in Storybrooke were the Charming Clan (and their pirate mascot) and the Mills/Hoods. After coming back from yet another crisis in some far-off land, they invite everyone in Storybrooke to celebrate at Granny's like usual, but nobody shows up. They think it's another monster attack or curse crisis, but then they find a note written on Granny's door that reads:

 

"Hey there, 'Heroes.' We got fed up with your narcissism and how you guys literally only care about your little clique of Snow, Charming, Emma, Hook, Henry, Regina, Robin, Roland, Neal 2.0 and Pistachio... so we decided to move back to the Enchanted Forest. We figured you guys wouldn't care if we left because you never talk to us anymore. Enjoy living in Storybrooke, losers. –xoxo All the Forgotten Citizens."

Edited December 14, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

S1 and S2 were more consistent about the variety of sets, too. We didn't spend endless amounts of time at Granny's Diner or Snowing's loft. We saw other locations around town frequently, like Regina's house, the hospital (not just the asylum), The White Rabbit bar, Henry's school, etc. That gave us the impression this was an actual town and that it doesn't end after main street. Now, however, where the characters meet is starting to make less and less sense. Why are Robin and Regina meeting Zelena in the loft? Why is everyone having their dates at Granny's? What happened to Emma's apartment in New York?
 

I understand there's a budget and sets cost a lot of money, but seeing the same places constantly grows stale and feels like a sitcom. it was nice to see Emma get a house, but it doesn't exactly liven up Storybrooke either.

Edited December 14, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I was looking back at the cast to see what happened and when to change the sense of Storybrooke as a town.

 

In season one, the regular (main credits) cast was relatively small -- Emma, Snow, David, Regina, Henry, Rumple (was Graham regular or regularly recurring?) -- but they had a fairly large cast of regularly recurring characters who were in most episodes -- Graham (unless he was a regular) in the first half, August in the second half, Granny, Archie, Ruby, Grumpy, Sidney, Blue -- and a few others who showed up in a number of episodes -- Marco, some of the other dwarfs, Whale. Regina and Rumple were the arc villains, so they didn't have to use recurring regular slots on that role and could fill it with townspeople. I guess since the arc was about the townspeople under the curse, the townspeople counted as the "arc guests."

 

In season two, they added Belle as a regular. Ruby was theoretically a regular but once they got the new toy they didn't want it anymore and didn't use her like a regular. Hook functioned as almost a regular but didn't get main credits regular status until the end and wasn't in every episode. He and Cora were the arc villains for much of the season, with Greg and Tamara coming in toward the end. The Team Princess arc guests were Mulan and Aurora. My recollection may be inaccurate, but it seems like we were already seeing less of the townspeople than we did in season one. Granny and Grumpy were still around, and Archie made a few appearances (I remember Regina seeing him early in the season, and then there was the death/kidnapping bit). Whale had a couple of critical episodes. Neal appeared early in the season then was part of the regular group for the end of the season.

 

I think the tipping point may have been 3A, when most of the action was outside Storybrooke, and even the flashbacks didn't focus on the regularly recurring characters, just the mains. That may have either made those characters slip the writers' minds or meant those actors were freed up enough that they got other regular jobs and were less available when the story returned to town. Ruby was gone. Hook and Neal were full-fledged regulars. Pan was the arc villain, with Felix as a fairly regular sub-villain. Tink, the Darling Hipsters, and Wendy were the recurring arc guests. Grumpy and the dwarfs made a cameo in "Ariel," but otherwise we didn't really see the townspeople until toward the end of the arc. In 3B, the only real arc guests were Zelena and Robin. Otherwise, it was just the regulars and the usual recurring regulars, and yet they still managed to barely look beyond the Mills/Charming clan and their pirate mascot. Did we see Archie other than during the hospital showdown? Whale was just there for the delivery, and Tink was there long enough to cheerlead Regina about Robin.

 

In season 4, they went nuts with the guest characters. With 4A we had Elsa, Anna, Kristoff, and Ingrid as the arc guests, with Hans and his brothers and the Apprentice popping up a few times. We got a lot of Granny and Grumpy, and some of the other dwarfs were there for Shattered Sight, but otherwise the town was practically deserted. In 4A we had Ursula, Cruella, and Maleficent, with Lily showing up later in the season and Isaac in flashbacks early in the arc before taking on a bigger role later, and the Apprentice still around a bit. Will was theoretically a regular for the whole season, but they were already bored with the new toy and they didn't do anything with him. Robin moved from arc guest to part of the townspeople in 4A before leaving town to reappear with Zelena at the end of the season. Did we see Archie at all in season 4? Otherwise, the recurring regulars seem to have been Grumpy and Granny. Marco and August were around for a couple of episodes.

 

So arc regulars seem to have shoved out the townspeople regulars. It's not as though most of their guest cast are really big names. It's the characters who have the celebrity cachet. Instead of using the existing cast, they bring in the big-name guest characters, and it looks like it's the Stiltskin/Charming/Mills/Hood clan and their pirate mascot with special guests rather than looking like a town.

[Faemonic]

It would be a great twist if the series finale revealed that the only people left in Storybrooke were the Charming Clan (and their pirate mascot) and the Mills/Hoods. After coming back from yet another crisis in some far-off land, they invite everyone in Storybrooke to celebrate at Granny's like usual, but nobody shows up. They think it's another monster attack or curse crisis, but then they find a note written on Granny's door that reads:

 

"Hey there, 'Heroes.' We got fed up with your narcissism and how you guys literally only care about your little clique of Snow, Charming, Emma, Hook, Henry, Regina, Robin, Roland, Neal 2.0 and Pistachio... so we decided to move back to the Enchanted Forest. We figured you guys wouldn't care if we left because you never talk to us anymore. Enjoy living in Storybrooke, losers. –xoxo All the Forgotten Citizens."

Maybe Ruby took all the townsfolk with her when she and Tiny got to harvest that one magic bean. Otherwise, it would really be uncharacteristically selfish of her to have gone off on her own soul-searching vacation without giving anybody else a choice.

[Dianthus]

I'm not really sure where this should go, but I read something today that I just couldn't resist sharing:

A recent PPP poll shows that 30% of Republican primary voters think we should bomb...wait for it... Agrabah! I shit you not. Actually, I saw this on two different blogs I frequent, neither of which is The Onion.

[Camera One]

I'm going through 5A again since my friend is back in town and we're marathoning.  I watched the first two episodes tonight, and I really don't know about the rewatch value of this half-season.

 

In the first episode, my friend thought Hook and Henry were being really stupid breaking Zelena out, and I couldn't argue otherwise.  Why would Zelena know all about how Merlin's wand worked, and then suddenly later, Regina knew the wand's magic would tire Zelena out, and she didn't know it.  Both episodes featured Robin's life being threatened.  I found it kind of interesting both times, in both episodes, both Hook and Snow told Regina NOT to save Robin since it would jeopardize Emma.  I still hated how Percival was killed off by Charming.

 

The Merida parts of the first episode were so freak'in tedious that I was so tempted to fast forward.  Knowing she would be back actually made the scenes even worse, and her thanking Emma for showing her the darkness inside her felt ridiculous considering how she acted later.  

 

I was hoping that some scenes would have added meaning and resonance knowing the Dark Hook twist.  I think there was only one moment of that in the first two episodes.  Which were sort of cancelled out by weird moments like Dark Emma's menacing/triumphant look after Hook left the house in "The Price", when she should have looked sad.  Was Dark Emma just going to let Robin get sucked into the Underworld?  Really?  And what the hell was with Dark Rumple's dumb speech at the end about all Dark Ones wanting to cut the light out of their life.  In hindsight, that was a blatant misdirect.  Didn't the Dark Ones want the Sword and Dagger reunited so all of them could come back from hell?  And Mind Rumple told Emma that to pull Excalibur out of the stone, she would need to pay "a price".  What was that exactly?  

 

Regina using the wand when they made such a huge deal in the first episode that the user must have dark magic was another blatant disconnect.  So we never found out how the wand was "forged with dark and light".  I remember being curious about that but they never went there again.

 

I laughed out loud during the hand-holding-with-Fury climax, even Arthur ran up and held hands with everyone.  WTF and why would he do that?  That resolution was even dumber than the first time I watched it.

 

So overall, I can't say rewatching was rewarding in any way.  I did forget that I liked the short character moments and funny moments they added with the ball in "The Price".  That actually made the episode a little more light-hearted and more of an ensemble piece than any other episode for the remainder of the half-season.  And ironic, considering that was a Regina-centric.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Camera One

[Free]

I laughed out loud during the hand-holding-with-Fury climax, even Arthur ran up and held hands with everyone.  WTF and why would he do that?  That resolution was even dumber than the first time I watched it.

 

It made it all the more pointless considering how no price was actually paid and they were able to easily fend it off.

 

My biggest problem with 5a is that it dealt with heavy mythology but it didn't handle it well: the darkness, the DO, etc.  This should be all exciting, but the climax was especially disappointing considering they had an entire army of DOs and yet there was no real threat or tension.  Even Zelena put up more of a fight.

[Camera One]

Dumbest Dark Ones ever, for sure.  Were there a few more boatloads of Dark Ones awaiting passage, based on the crowd of hooded figures watching Dark Emma in her cave?  Shouldn't there have been a crowd of people marked for the Underworld at the Lake instead of our usual chosen few?  

[Free]

Two-thirds the way through 5A, the writers got bored of Merida, Dark Swan and Camelot and thought, "Hey! Wouldn't it be cool if Hook became a Dark One too and it was this epic tragedy?" There's a stark disconnect between the focus in 5x01-5x07 and 5x08-5x11. (I'm not counting 5x09.)

 

Definitely, it felt way too messy for all of this to be planned.

 

However, everything after that felt off to me.

 

I wouldn't have had a problem had the execution actually worked and/or if there was ample build up instead of a sudden switch.

 

Hook's dark turn was literally him doing a 180 after he finds out the truth on the spot and then doing a complete 180 back in the last few minutes and all of this is jammed pack in a 2 episode span alongside with other plot points.

 

I agree. I hated watching them stride through Storybrooke in the mid-season finale with no constructive plan of how to confront Hook or the Dark Ones, no discussion of calling in re-enforcements or of warning the rest of the town. You'd think years of facing crisis after crisis would've given them enough cause to have some kind of disaster plan in place. It doesn't need to be shown in detail; a bit of lip service to show the town's mayor and sheriffs actually doing their jobs and reinforcing a town that comes under some form of magical attack every few weeks would be good. I'm getting sick of this show's obsession with saviours and heroes. Give us competent adults first, guys.

 

Sadly, it's the same confrontation of them holding swords and bows/arrows while doing nothing again and again.

 

Dumbest Dark Ones ever, for sure.  Were there a few more boatloads of Dark Ones awaiting passage, based on the crowd of hooded figures watching Dark Emma in her cave?  Shouldn't there have been a crowd of people marked for the Underworld at the Lake instead of our usual chosen few?

 

There should but they're too busy being off screened some more.

 

5a was hugely disappointing, especially since there are some great ideas that should've made an epic climax considering how much it dealt with the show's own mythology this time around.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Free

[Camera One]

Just marathoned the next three... overall, "Siege Perilous", "The Broken Kingdom" and "Dreamcatcher" did have some good momentum going.  I didn't remember the exact order of the episodes, and when each started, I was fearful it would be "The Bear and the Bow", but that's actually the next one we will watch.

 

"Siege Perilous" was a little boring, considering David was just being played in both the past and the present.  Watching people being played is just not enjoyable the second time around.  

 

The Arthur/Guinevere/Lancelot backstory was still reasonably involving the second time around, even though going to the Dark One vault still made zero sense.  I wish they kept Arthur a gray character instead of making him muahahaha evil, which was so unnecessary.  Killing the squire was so unnecessary.  Didn't Arthur still have a stash of magic dust left?  Why didn't he use it in Storybrooke?  If Arthur was "building a new Camelot in Storybrooke", you'd think he would have taken a few more steps.  Rewatching "The Broken Kingdom" made me sad that Guinevere and Lancelot had nothing to do after this episode.  This episode showed that having an entire episode mostly Storybrooke-less wasn't a bad thing.  This episode did feel like we were finding out something new.

 

"Dreamcatcher" also felt like there was progress being made, with Merlin being freed.  I didn't mind the Henry stuff.  I just wish there was a better progression with Emma turning "dark".  Maybe have Hook helping Emma to get MindRumple out of her brain in the second episode, and then Emma using dark magic to save Robin later on.  But then again, I sort of liked seeing the Hook/Emma stuff within "The Broken Kingdom".  The Storybrooke aspect of "Dreamcatcher" with the sneaking-into-Emma's really badly locked basement and Emma having her dreamcatchers lying around was really weak.  And it goes without saying the Merida/Rumple stuff was a waste of time and made a third of "Dreamcatcher" a total drag.  Why was Rumple asking about what Emma planned to do with Excalibur when his "Dark One" knowledge should have told him the obvious possibilities?  

 

Right now, I'm really dreading the Merida episode and actually sort of looking forward to seeing the Merlin episode again.  

Edited December 23, 2015 by Camera One

[Free]

Apart from Merida (whose appearance didn't make much sense to me), I think this season was full of potentially great ideas - Dark Emma, Camelot, Merlin, Dark Hook, the Underworld - and yet it feels like none of them were given a fair chance.

 

Agreed, none of them were fleshed out well enough, they were juggling too many ideas and yet none of them gelled together like it should've when the arc was wrapping up.

[Camera One]

I forgot to mention that the first time Merlin saw Hook in "Dreamcatcher", it seemed like Merlin was giving Hook the evil glare.  Could he already have known that he would be killed by Hook?

[Camera One]

It's hard to know if the Savior Regina thing was mostly: 1) typical for the show in blowing a small thing out of proportion in promotion; 2) based only on the first couple of episodes, since that's all the cast really knew about; 3) typical Lana overstating Regina's importance; or 4) something that was actually going to go somewhere but was changed because of the significant negative fan reaction. Probably some combination of all of them.

 

Speaking of the Savior Regina thing, Dark Emma told Regina in "The Price" that she would soon be faced with a problem that the Savior would normally solve but now Regina has to deal with it and she won't be able to.  How would normal Emma have solved the Fury problem?  A Savior would motivate the people to hold hands and faced death together in a collective kumbaya?  

[Camera One]

Only saw one episode tonight, "The Bear and the Bow".  My friend actually said she found Merida really unlikeable and that this was ruining "Brave" for her, and she wasn't enjoying this half-season.  This episode still felt like a colossal waste of time.  I had preferred the subplots to the main story originally, but even they lost their lustre the second time around.  Knowing the "full story", why was Emma trying to make a deal with Zelena?  It goes without saying that Merlin's "message" about Nimue went nowhere.  They even wasted some time in this episode with Emma in Camelot flashing back to Merlin warning Young Emma not to mess with Excalibur, as if it was soooo important.  Except Merlin needed Emma to fuse Excalibur with the Dagger in order to destroy the Dark Ones for good... in the next episode, I think?  I'm not going to waste time discussing the dumb insta-hero stuff again.  Rumple's "You've made one mistake in all of this one terrible mistake.  You've turned me into a hero" sounded like a big deal in this episode but again, nothing came of it.  One more thing... how did Lancelot recognize Merlin when he has been in a tree for so long.  Oh whatever... 

Edited December 26, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Emma didn't really want to make a deal with Zelena--she just wanted to feed her cursed onion rings.

[Free]

Only saw one episode tonight, "The Bear and the Bow".  My friend actually said she found Merida really unlikeable and that this was ruining "Brave" for her, and she wasn't enjoying this half-season.  This episode still felt like a colossal waste of time.  I had preferred the subplots to the main story originally, but even they lost their lustre the second time around.  Knowing the "full story", why was Emma trying to make a deal with Zelena?  It goes without saying that Merlin's "message" about Nimue went nowhere.  They even wasted some time in this episode with Emma in Camelot flashing back to Merlin warning Young Emma not to mess with Excalibur, as if it was soooo important.  Except Merlin needed Emma to fuse Excalibur with the Dagger in order to destroy the Dark Ones for good... in the next episode, I think?  I'm not going to waste time discussing the dumb insta-hero stuff again.  Rumple's "You've made one mistake in all of this one terrible mistake.  You've turned me into a hero" sounded like a big deal in this episode but again, nothing came of it.  One more thing... how did Lancelot recognize Merlin when he has been in a tree for so long.  Oh whatever... 

 

A lot didn't add up once you know all the 'answers'.  Nimue was a big waste, especially with an entire army of DOs and yet they ended up being more disappointing than the previous villains in this series.  Making Rumple a hero just to make him a villain again and reverting back to S4 all over again was a complete waste of time.  Merida really went nowhere especially after being Rumple's plot device.

 

she just wanted to feed her cursed onion rings.

 

Emma's plan didn't make any sense, it was all over the place.  She tried to isolate everyone, but she needed other characters' help for her nonsensical plans.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Free

[HoodlumSheep]

At least the costumes were pretty. :D

[KingOfHearts]

I don't find Once Upon a Time's story that interesting right now. Which sounds remarkably strange given the setup. I applaud the writers for constructing a functioning multiverse filled with all sorts of characters. That's difficult to pull off on a TV show, especially using Disney as the foundation. But it's really not about the multiverse or its inhabitants, though. It's not even about Storybrooke or the main characters. As it stands, the show centers around elements very small compared to the grand scale of the setting. What we see are a string of events leading up to one or two plot elements.

 

In every arc there are only two points that get any substantial closure. Everything else that leads up to that, including the detours, is just filler. 3B was Zelena + Time Travel, 4A was Frozen + Sorcerer's Hat, 4B was Eggnappers + Bizarro World, and 5A was Merida + Dark Hook. I don't think Camelot even counts since it got dropped right in the thick of things with zero payoff. So now we're moving into 5B, and I wonder if the Underworld will go the way of that and the Queens of Darkness. I have all certainty that A&E want to visit UW, but they have no intention of actually exploring it.

Edited December 28, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I don't think there is any intention of exploring the Underworld. The writers suck at worldbuilding and have never really shown any interest in developing it. Look at Neverland. There was zero interest in using the world itself as a character and instead we had people wandering around potted plants for eight episodes. They never even bothered to show us Oz or differentiate it from anything in the Enchanted Forest. Even the minor differences they tried to create in S2 Storybrooke like magic working differently there have gone away. 

 

I'm hoping that the Underworld does end up more like Season 1 where the Saviour arrives in this slightly off Storybrooke and each episode features a dead character getting closure with one of the regulars and moving on to their happy ending wherever that might be. The underlying through arc would be ending the "curse" that holds all of these people in limbo. Saving Hook would be a part of that. If it works that way, the Underworld and how it functions is less important than the characters and relationships which is where this show excels.

Edited December 28, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

Rewatched "Nimue" last night, and although this was one of the stronger flashbacks this season, it's telling that for the third time in seven episodes, we hardly see present-day Storybrooke, where hardly anything happens.  I don't know why that actor who played Merlin was so mesmerizing, but this episode might not have been too great if casting had been less effective.  The stuff with Mary Margaret getting conked out by Zelena and then Zelena being able to easily tether Merlin to the sword was just as frustrating the second time around.  

 

For me, the second time just made all the stupidity of Merlin's objects and plans and the inconsistencies of the world-building stand out.  The friend I was marathoning with said she was interested in finding out how Nimue would help them as per Merlin's Obi-wan Kinobe message.  In Merlin's flashback, the Apprentice was right there when Merlin created the Dagger and he even asked Merlin if he wished he didn't meet Nimue.  Which makes the Apprentice's vague answers in the 4B finale and the 5A premiere even more quizzical.  

 

APPRENTICE: Long before Your stories began The sorcerer battled the darkness.  He was able to keep it from consuming the realms.  He tethered it to a human soul that could be controlled with a dagger.  The Dark One.  The sorcerer is the only one with the power to destroy the darkness once and for all before it destroys everything.  

 

The Apprentice knew exactly what happened, so why the hell did he say that?  It's not even ambiguous... it blatantly contradicts the backstory.  

 

Where is he? Who is he?

APPRENTICE: He's far, far from here.  Find him.  His name is Merlin.  You must Stop The darkness.  Find Merlin.

 

 

Why not be a tad more specific?  "He's far far from here?"  Wow, thanks.  The Apprentice seemed to be able to communicate with Merlin at will.  He even updated him on the Babynapping stuff.  So why not teach them how to conjure up Merlin, so they could get instructions?

 

The most ridiculous thing is that Emma made her decision in the 4B finale BASED on the Apprentice's instructions.  

 

EMMA: That's not gonna work on this thing! The Apprentice told me we have to do what the sorcerer did! We have to tether it to a person to contain it!

Emma! No!

 

 

Okay, so A&E&J hadn't even made up what happened when 4B ended.  But what about the 5A premiere?  

 

Where did they go?

APPRENTICE: She is now where all darkness is born In your realm.

Well, take us there.
APPRENTICE: I am too weak now.  But this will help.  It is a gift from the sorcerer, from Merlin.  On the day I became his apprentice.
In it is all the light magic. In order to cross realms, it must be wielded as it was forged. With both sides of the coin. The light and the dark.

 

 

Wasn't there a Door available at the Sorcerer's Mansion?  He gave this wand the DAY he became the Apprentice?  But that was presumably before Merlin even met Nimue.  

 

On a rewatch, you usually want stuff to make more sense, not less...

 

Can you think of anything else the Apprentice could have told them before dying which would have helped?

Edited December 28, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm hoping that the Underworld does end up more like Season 1 where the Saviour arrives in this slightly off Storybrooke and each episode features a dead character getting closure with one of the regulars and moving on to their happy ending wherever that might be. The underlying through arc would be ending the "curse" that holds all of these people in limbo. Saving Hook would be a part of that. If it works that way, the Underworld and how it functions is less important than the characters and relationships which is where this show excels.

Most arcs are split into their own two halves, making seasons almost into quarters. 3B was Missing Year -> Zelena, 4B was Queens of Darkness -> Author, and 5A was Camelot -> Dark Hook. 4A was mostly consistent, but more focus was put on Ingrid and Rumple in the latter half. So this is what I expect for 5B - the first half will be the Underworld, but that will be a misdirect for a shiny toy A&E will chug along to without any good build-up.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't know why that actor who played Merlin was so mesmerizing, but this episode might not have been too great if casting had been less effective.

 

Both actors sold the hell out of those flashbacks. Both actors were very effective, and I don't think the episode would have been nearly as good (especially the flashbacks of a recurring character).