A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[KAOS Agent]

I found the flashbacks in 4A entertaining when they weren't about Anna's tour of the Enchanted Forest where she was shoehorned into a bunch of core characters' backstories. However, they have zero rewatch value for me. I just don't care because we'll never see those characters again and they mean nothing to the overall story. The Camelot stuff from 5A falls into this category. Will I care about it after this half season and ever want to watch it again? Nope. Is it still more interesting than watching Regina v Snowing part 56821453? Yep. 

[Shanna Marie]

I just don't care because we'll never see those characters again and they mean nothing to the overall story. The Camelot stuff from 5A falls into this category. Will I care about it after this half season and ever want to watch it again? Nope.

It's hard to judge rewatch value until it's over, but so far, the Camelot flashbacks seem to have a little more bearing to the lives of the ongoing characters than the Frozen stuff did. We already have a bit of that puzzle pieces thing going on, as we've seen the real story of what led to Lancelot's departure right before he met Snow and David, and we've seen how Rumple got the gauntlet (and finally got to see how it worked -- after that mattered in the present). Meanwhile, explaining the sand stuff was important for seeing what happened to our characters in the six-weeks-ago present, and I'm guessing that's going to have a big impact on the plot and might even still carry over into the real present. If they delve into the backstory of the Dark One and why Merlin popped in on young Emma, then Camelot-related flashbacks will really have impact on the overall story and our ongoing characters.

 

If we apply the rewatch value standard of meaning something to the overall story, then even the present-day parts of most arcs would barely matter, as they're almost instantly forgotten. Emma running into the foster mother she didn't remember? No biggie, never mentioned again. Rumple scheming to let the whole town die and kill Hook? He's back in town within one episode, back in Belle's good graces by the end of the next arc, and all the stuff going on with him now doesn't seem to have anything to do with that. The Author stuff? Not a factor, along with Emma's supposed BFF who inherited all her darkness, even though this arc is about Emma being filled with Darkness.

[Camera One]

If we look at the show as retelling fairy tales, the stories of characters who have no lasting impact on the show should still have rewatch value.  4A was the story of The Snow Queen, her sisters, and her nieces.  In most cases with this show, it's the way the characters' stories were told which make them uninteresting to revisit (eg. Rapunzel's tale).  At least with Frozen, they had enough time to develop the characters such that their stories were more meaty.  Versus seeing Dorothy, or King Stefan, etc. in a single episode in an almost insignificant supporting role, for example.

[orza]

Of course, episodes featuring the one-off characters have rewatch value. Some of those characters have been portrayed by very good actors who gave memorable performances, much better than what we see week after week from some of the regular cast members. That in itself is a good reason to rewatch some episodes. The idea of a rewatch "standard" makes no sense. People rewatch episodes for many different reasons. The fan girls do it to swoon over the object of their obsession and for the vicarious romance, others really like the little one-off stories and vignettes, some people just love the cheezy over-the top villainy that Regina and Rumple serve up. I have zero interest in rewatching any episode that heavily features Emma because she is boring but I will never grow tired of rewatching Cruella or Isaac, mostly because the actors were so good in the roles.

[KingOfHearts]

I wanted to wait until tonight's episode to post what I think about 5A so far. This might be an early call, but I'd like to look back at what I write after the arc is over to compare. We're at the halfway point.

 

To be honest, I'm not that fond of a good portion of it. It's not that all of it is bad like 4B, but there is quite a bit of focus on stories and characters I just don't care about. Merida was dead on arrival for me. Camelot, while it has an intriguing mystery tied to it, is misused. It's background for the arc's main craziness and it really needs to be fleshed out in order to portray its potential properly. While it fits into the Once universe, it also feels irrelevant much like Arendelle. The characters we've grown to hate or love are just popping in and out of it whenever convenient. Lancelot, Percival, Arthur and Guinevere could all be an interesting cast. But their story mostly detracts from the real elephant in the room... Dark Swan.

 

I have to give props to Jennifer Morrison. She has been utterly killing it as both the evil Dark Swan and the tempted Savior in Camelot. Like Ingrid, she's able to chew the scenery without coming off as overbearing. Her cold tones and callous expressions keep her sinister in appearance. Although, she's not so much a villain as she is a tortured soul trapped inside of a threatening monster. I don't find her particularly threatening as a Big Bad, but every scene does wonders for her character as a whole. There's a complexity that I hope doesn't get the curtain pulled toward the latter half.

 

For the writing, it's hit or miss. There was genius dialogue two weeks ago with Captain Swan's date recreation. For the first time in a while, I feel like the writers have a coherent story planned out with a definite start and end. It's not like 4B where it was trying different methods to see what would stick. There's a lot to keep you guessing and the predictability has stepped down a few notches. Where it's bad, it's still very bad. Regina's redemption is still artificial as ever and there's retcons galore. The writing is an improvement, but it still has a long way to go to make us forget the terribleness transpired.

 

I don't hate this arc so far by any stretch. I'm just waiting for more development on Dark Swan, which has consistently taken a backseat to the Camelot saga.

[Mathius]

5A's flashbacks are more akin to 4B's flashbacks since for much of it, we have the main characters there with them, so the guest characters' stories (Arthur/Lancelot/Gwenivere in 5A and Zelena in 4B) are done out of order.

You mean 3B, not 4B.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I don't hate this arc so far by any stretch. I'm just waiting for more development on Dark Swan, which has consistently taken a backseat to the Camelot saga.

 

This is why I'm so frustrated. We're halfway through the Dark Swan arc (the extra hour doesn't count since it was not originally planned and will be a filler adventure) and we know nothing about Emma's true motivations in the present or what really drove her full on dark in the past. She just kind of wanders around seeming really sad and tortured and just not at all what a true Dark One would be. Through the first four episodes, David had almost ten minutes more screentime than Emma. David! It's pretty obvious to me that they don't have enough story to create a full on Dark Swan arc, so instead we're getting a lot of Camelot stuff with a bit of Dark Swan skulking around doing nothing. We've not even gotten an Emma-centric and promos tell me that next week isn't one either. So at the least, we'll wait seven episodes to learn what she's really up to and what happened? I'm fine with a little mystery, but waiting until 3/4 of the way into the story to tell the audience what's going on isn't the best idea.

[Camera One]

There was that enlightening scene tonight of Dark Emma shedding a tear in that room full of dreamcatchers.  Told me oodles about her mindset.

[HoodlumSheep]

Despite it's flaws I'm rather enjoying 5a. It seems to be hitting a dull patch (so it's following 4a's pattern) at the moment, but it's still better than 4b in my opinion. I love the Camelot cast. I want to keep shady Arthur (as a minor reoccurring villain). Merida does nothing for me though. She could have been axed all together.

it really comes down to personal taste. For season 4 I enjoyed the Disney plug-ins (Elsa, Kristoff, Hans, Anna (she started out decent) was the weak link) better than Merida by far. I loved Mickey. EM's charisma alone, made me love the Snow Queen despite her plan being convoluted. They had a cool concept going with the hat. It was the ending (both the lame Shattered Sight spell (although the Snow Queen's goodbye was beautiful--charisma once again--) and 4x11that ultimately killed the arc. 4b was a complete mess. Characters just stood around and did nothing the entire time. The two strongest episodes were pretty much one-offs. I did like Lily, Isaac, Cruella, Maleficent, Mickey again. Story lines were messy, the concept of free will vs. Author etc. backfired. eggnapping retcons galore. And this is a personal opinion of mine (so please don't hate me), but I found Lana's acting to be weak in 4b (and it was the Regina half of the season).

Maybe we'll get lucky and 5a pick up steam again faster than 4a. As long as it has a better ending than 4a, I think I'll be ranking 5a above the whole of season 4.

[Curio]

We're halfway through the Dark Swan arc (the extra hour doesn't count since it was not originally planned and will be a filler adventure) and we know nothing about Emma's true motivations in the present or what really drove her full on dark in the past. [...] We've not even gotten an Emma-centric and promos tell me that next week isn't one either.

 

I thought the premiere was kind of Emma-centric, but that was also combined with Camelot flashbacks and a good mix of the entire cast so it wasn't huge on Emma. We also haven't gotten a single serious interaction between Emma and her parents in these first 5 episodes, even though she begged them during the finale to help her get rid of the darkness. So much for developing the Charming family dynamics...

[Camera One]

What do you mean?  Did you miss the scene where Dark Emma helped Snow and Charming string up the street lights for the block party, and how they commiserated over how it feels to break their childrens' hearts, and then all the street lights got "snuffed" out and Dark Emma remembered her quest?

Edited October 26, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I think 5A is leaps and bounds better than 4B, and 4A. I did not care for them shoving Anna down my throat like that. 

 

I find 5A more focused. It's the stuff that we don't know, the whole "mystery" that's a bit grating. Maybe they should stop writing like that though, but since they love their memory curses, then there's not a chance of that happening.

[Writing Wrongs]

I wonder if David ever told Snow about the time Regina came on to him? Awkward.

[KingOfHearts]

I wonder if David ever told Snow about the time Regina came on to him? Awkward.

Kinda makes that scene teaching Regina to dance even creepier doesn't it?

She actually came on to him twice. Once in EF and once in Storybrooke.

[KingOfHearts]

 

This season has been great, but I have a feeling it will make a lot more sense to watch it all together vs. week to week.

5A has been intense most of the way through. There's been very little downtime, with dark cloud overhanging every episode. The characters have had all incentive to remain in a state of panic. The darker tone originating in 4B has stuck with us. Because this is all one threat we're constantly reminded of, I agree that a binge-watch would probably be more fun than week-to-week. Back in S1, the story was meant to run parallel with real time. But in our current timeline of events, the plot is extremely condensed. 

 

It's not a bad thing that 5A is rough and dramatic. For the most part it's been engaging. I wouldn't like every single arc to be that way, though. After all the crap Emma and Hook have gone through this time around, I hope they get some downtime in 5B. Even if there's another threat, either it should focus on someone in the Regina faction or be less panic-inducing.

Edited November 11, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[LizaD]

5A has been intense most of the way through.

I agree but I didn't realize it until 5x08. But that culmination point kind of pushed it over the edge and not in a good way. I'm glad JM and Colin got their time in the sun and stretch their acting skills but it's just exhausting. I was riveted watching them last night but sitting on it now, it's a bit much for what is supposed to be a silly fairy tale mashup. 4B was dark but I felt like Cruella and Ursula lightened up that whole bit of QoD silliness but then again I didn't watch a chunk of those episodes. There's really none of that around this time. They've somehow managed to suck out every last bit of fun. Even Merida adds to the harshness of the arc. And 4A feels downright fluffy now.

I'm really surprised the ratings have been as rock steady as they have. Guess the families with young kids left the house long before now.

I just really wanted sexy fun Merlin damn it.

Edited November 17, 2015 by LizaD

[Camera One]

5A has felt strangely uneventful to me.  In Storybrooke, "Dark" Emma spent half the time trying to get a sword out of a stone, while everyone did... pretty much nothing.  In Camelot, Emma spent a bunch of time trying to get Merlin out of the tree, while everyone else was fooled by Arthur, and then tried to get the sword from Arthur.  It took 8 episodes before we even knew why Dark Emma was doing what she was doing in Storybrooke, and before Emma turned dark in the flashbacks.  Though this is really nothing new in terms of the pacing, but maybe the foreboding atmosphere just made the half-season feel more oppressive and a little dull.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Camera One

[Curio]

5A has felt strangely uneventful to me.

 

Which is crazy to think about, because 5A has given us:

• The first look at Dark One Emma emerging from the Dark One's Vault
• The gang getting whisked away to another realm in a tornado
• A royal ball
• Emma tearing out the heart of a young girl
• Emma freeing Merlin from his tree prison using light and dark magic
• Rumple pulling Excalibur from its stone
• Hook dying and Emma choosing to create two Dark Ones

 

But I get why you'd feel like they're uneventful because we've been spoon-fed a lot of bullshit filler in between, so the pacing has been terrible as an audience member. I've been really enjoying 5A a lot so far, and now that we know the big twist about Hook being a Dark One this entire time, it'll be very enjoyable to go back and re-watch the season again to catch any subtle nuances or see how that knowledge changes the stakes in the scenes. You can't say that about too many other half-season arcs. (The writers might claim they did this successfully with the Zarian and egg baby reveals, but those are terrible retcons that I refuse to believe were told to the actors ahead of time. Jennifer Morrison was at least told before Season 5 started that her main motivation as the Dark One was because of Hook, so even that vague information helped her until she read the big reveal of Episode 8.)

 

"Birth" was such a an intense and fulfilling episode because it cut out all the filler crap and only focused on our main cast and the high-stakes situation they were in. If all the previous episodes were written the same way, we probably could have covered all those bullet points above in 4 episodes. Instead, we had to sit through meaningless plots that barely affected the Dark Swan story, which makes the big events seem less eventful because of the random pacing. Why did we have to watch Regina learn how to dance for the first time when that makes absolutely no sense based on her character's past? Why did Regina even have to pretend to be the savior if that secret amounted to nothing important in Camelot? Why did I watch an entire flashback about Lancelot and Gwen's love story if the writers were going to just forget Lancelot anyways after they randomly saved him from his cell and apparently lost him on their trek back to Granny's? Why did we have to sit and watch Regina cry about Daniel and look at a Season 1 scene we've already seen frame-for-frame on the show before, when in the end it was actually Henry's tears that were necessary for the spell? Why have we watched two full episodes about Merida?! It gets frustrating having to sit through these things that have little to no impact on the final climax. 

Edited November 17, 2015 by Curio

[HoodlumSheep]

I've enjoyed 5a a lot. There's been more action, despite most of it getting handwaved the next episode (like Robin almost croaked, Killian almost croaked, Snow almost got strangled to death). This season is keeping me on my toes despite it not making any sense half the time.

Personally, I think A&E need to work on the middle sections of the arcs. Those are where the story always seems to suffer. It's where it always comes clear that everyone is just sort of loligagging around. Epsiodes 5,6,7 are almost always the killers in my opinion. They hardly seem to advance the plot (there are a few episodes that are exceptions).

Look at this batch. Episode 5; took them a whole episode to get Merlin out of a tree. I don't think the present day stuff forwarded the plot besides revealing that they had managed to find Merlin. Episode 6 the storybrooke stuff kind of progressed with Rumple pulling the sword, but the Belle/Merida stuff could have been completely removed. She should have had a story involving the other characters that maybe helped progress the plot somehow. Episode 7 I'll give some slack because it finally revealed an important part of the Once mythology. Still, the storyline still stagnates in these episodes because one tiny thing gets accomplished per episode.

Then they try to smush the rest of the stuff into the last 4 eps (3 in this case because Bear King was complete filler).

They need to work on spreading their content out more evenly while still forwarding the plot.

It just drives me crazy that we can get episodes like Birth that have all the drama and manage to move the plot forward leaps and bounds and reveal stuff.

What's stopping them from doing this every episode??????

Depending on how 5a ends (and sets the tone for 5b)- although it looks like everything's probably going to heck in the next few episodes-, I'm going guess that if 5b doesn't have a lighter mood, they'll pull a Frozen for 6a. You know, a much lighter/hopeful? tone to counter this season.

Edited November 17, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

What i'm enjoying about season 5 is that Camelot is not out of place.

 

In 4A, Arendelle was very much stand alone, it was Anna the hero traipsing around the Enchanted Forest, making all these connections that in the end meant absolutely nothing. 

 

Makine abstraction of Merida whom I find to be very much out of place, and her centrics were very much stand alone episodes, the other 6 episodes actually make sense when put together, and there is a fairly solid connection. It's not completely seamless, but it's better.

 

I'm hoping they keep that up in 5B.

[LizaD]

 

5A has felt strangely uneventful to me. half-season feel more oppressive and a little dull.

 

It's the Storybrooke side that's dragging the whole she-bang down because nothing happens there. I kept waiting for DS to wreak some havoc and she became a hermit and stared at a damn sword all day long. I think if you just string the Camelot bits together it'd be clicking along.

 

As for the oppressive part I think I put my finger on why. Usually in the other seasons, they give the crew these small bits of real victories along the way even if they don't matter that much. Here I'm feeling like Emma is starring in her own Myth of Sisyphus. They made her journey feel a bit futile because her victories are fake. They're only there to set her and the audience up for a bigger fall. She gave Merida her heart back, turned around to save Robin and get scaly skin? WTF? She got rid of head!Rump but apparently that was a bad thing because it meant she was giving into the darkness. She un-treed Merlin but then we got the reveal that she ripped out someone's heart and created the worst teenage angst ever. She beat Nimue but then Merlin turned into Dark 2. Merlin and her beat the darkness and was about to reforge Excalibur but Hook was dying and now they're Dark One and Two.

 

Add in Arthur the co-villain, who's villainy is more angsty than the others in the past and yeah it is sort of oppressive. The heroes aren't getting anything done. The villains aren't having any fun being villains. Zelena tries but the baby custody case is too "real world" for any real humor or silliness to seep through.

[Mathius]

Personally, I think A&E need to work on the middle sections of the arcs. Those are where the story always seems to suffer. It's where it always comes clear that everyone is just sort of loligagging around. Epsiodes 5,6,7 are almost always the killers in my opinion. They hardly seem to advance the plot (there are a few episodes that are exceptions).

 

Actually, that was only the case in 4A.  In both 3A and now in 5A, it was episodes 4, 5, and 6 (episode 7 finally got things rolling again).  And in 3B and 4B, we had five episodes to slog through (episodes 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 in both cases) before it became truly eventful again.  But in any case, yes, the middles need work because they are so stagnating.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Mathius

[HoodlumSheep]

Actually, that was only the case in 4A. In both 3A and now in 5A, it was episodes 4, 5, and 6 (episode 7 finally got things rolling again). And in 3B and 4B, we had five episodes to slog through (episodes 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 in both cases) before it became truly eventful again. But in any case, yes, the middles need work because they are so stagnating.

I liked episode 4. So for me the slower ones were 5,6,7 for this season. I guess I should say 5+6 were the real killers. I liked 5x07 because we got the dark one mythology, but once again only one thing got accomplished:getting the spark.

Imagine what this show would be like if the heroes (or villains in the case of DS??) were allowed to accomplish two goals per episode rather than one.

Either way, the slower eps are always around the season's center. 4b was an exception because it was a mess and would go up and down in quality within the same episode. Messy, messy, messy.

It's like a pattern. Start out decent, twiddle thumbs, end decent (except for 4a).

Edited November 17, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Serena]

I think the problem of the "middle" is that they're stuck on the "centric" format. So episode 1 of an arc will be a cast-centric, episode 2 and 3 will be Snowing and Regina, 4 or 5 will be Hook and Rumple, and then they start going down the list, where relevancy is concerned: the obligatory Belle/Random Disney Princess Adventure, the Villain Centric, Another Villain centric, the Good Guest Star of the arc-centric, and only then we can get back to the actual plot.

[KingOfHearts]

Middles were also a problem way back in S1. The main story slogs from 1x08 to 1x16, and doesn't begin to pick up again until Jefferson. That doesn't necessarily mean that all the episodes in the middle were bad, but they were not focused on the original momentum or Emma breaking the curse. We get a chance to slow down and watch some of the character bios. But I like I said, it does drag if you're not completely invested in the Kathryn murder case or the modern Snowing angst.

 

I liked episode 4. So for me the slower ones were 5,6,7 for this season.

 

 

 

I would say 5x04 definitely derailed the plot quiet a bit, but it didn't slow the train down too much. It did help accelerate the urgency to stop Arthur. It was necessary to show us what was going on and to give Camelot its day in the sun. If you ask me, 5x05 is what really halted much of drive and 5x06 was the killing blow. Both of those episodes were boring and lacked the building tension. Thankfully, 5x07 brought us back to the arc's actual subject matter. (Dark Ones) While it still distracted us from the main plot by going into the trite Merlin/Nimue romance, there was at least some movement. And geez - 5x08 kicked things into overdrive. I'm going to pretend 5x09 just never happened.

 

 

I think the problem of the "middle" is that they're stuck on the "centric" format. So episode 1 of an arc will be a cast-centric, episode 2 and 3 will be Snowing and Regina, 4 or 5 will be Hook and Rumple, and then they start going down the list, where relevancy is concerned: the obligatory Belle/Random Disney Princess Adventure, the Villain Centric, Another Villain centric, the Good Guest Star of the arc-centric, and only then we can get back to the actual plot.

The problem with the centric flashbacks they've got going is that they're stuck with two options. They could either give us flashbacks about guest characters we'll never see again and thus usually derail the plot, or give us pointless main character flashblacks like Regina ripping horse ribbons. There's not much to tell without retconning or repeating what we've already seen. Except for important exposition from episodes like 5x07 and 5x08, flashbacks don't have much meaning. Heck, I don't even think the Storybrooke stuff in 5A has been all that necessary. The Nevengers in Camelot stuff has much more interesting.

 

The Storybrooke stuff has basically been just the mains running around looking confused and the Dark Swan staring at a sword. Anything they've discovered in the present just repeats what we've already seen in Camelot.

Edited November 17, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[HoodlumSheep]

I think the problem of the "middle" is that they're stuck on the "centric" format. So episode 1 of an arc will be a cast-centric, episode 2 and 3 will be Snowing and Regina, 4 or 5 will be Hook and Rumple, and then they start going down the list, where relevancy is concerned: the obligatory Belle/Random Disney Princess Adventure, the Villain Centric, Another Villain centric, the Good Guest Star of the arc-centric, and only then we can get back to the actual plot.

So true. I wish they'd shake up the pattern or something. I like character-centrics, I just wish they had better skills with incorporating it into the story. They need to connect with the main plot.

Also, my mind would be blown if we got the villain-centric in the first few episodes rather than the end. I have low standards. Also, I think that worked in favor of Jafar in Wonderland. His centric was the 4th episode in. Reveal the villain's intentions sooner and let his or her following scenes build up from there.

[Shanna Marie]

I still think that a lot of the problem of pacing in all the arcs is that the heroes are reactive rather than active. When season one bogged down, a lot of it was because Emma was just flailing around, reacting to what Regina did rather than having any real plan -- though in that season, there wasn't much "plan" for Emma to have because she didn't know what was going on.

 

2A worked pretty well because Team Princess had a plan for getting home and was taking steps toward it, with the Storybrooke side of the story also contributing to their plan. But 2B became Whack-a-Mole with the good guys reacting to whatever villain threat popped up -- Hook, Cora, Greg and Tamara. 3A worked pretty well in the present-day scenes (the flashbacks were more of the problem there) because the Nevengers had a goal and a plan and weren't just reacting to whatever Pan threw at them. 3B was very reactive, with them just flailing around at whatever Zelena did rather than doing anything proactive. 4A was again reactive, with most of the characters not even aware of what the real danger was until near the end of the last episode, and they did nothing about it. With 4B, they had a plan, but that plan turned out to have very little to do with the actual plot or what was really going on, and as much as they talked about Operation Mongoose, really they were just reacting to whatever Rumple and his minions were up to at the moment.

 

And now we're right back to reactive. The Camelot story did finally become more active once Emma decided they'd done enough futzing around and actually took steps to free Merlin, but they lost all momentum with the random side trips in between stories where something that mattered happened. In Storybrooke, the good guys have been flailing about, reacting to random things they've discovered, reacting to what Emma's doing, reacting to Arthur, with no real hint of a plan of what they might do proactively. Hook's been trying to drive some acting by investigating, but there's been no momentum to the investigation. The more recent revelations could all have happened without any of the previous episodes. What hurts the pacing there is that there have been cases where maybe five minutes passes in Storybrooke in an episode, or there have been episodes where we don't see what one group of characters is doing. The start of this episode seems to have come immediately after they got Merlin's voice mail, but there was a big gap before we got to see the reaction and their next step (going after Arthur). It's paced like George RR Martin is writing this season the way he wrote his last two books. Big, exciting thing happens! But first, a digression or two. Then we'll check in on these other characters. Ten years later, we'll pick up from that exciting cliffhanger.

[Mathius]

I liked episode 4. So for me the slower ones were 5,6,7 for this season. I guess I should say 5+6 were the real killers. I liked 5x07 because we got the dark one mythology, but once again only one thing got accomplished:getting the spark.

Imagine what this show would be like if the heroes (or villains in the case of DS??) were allowed to accomplish two goals per episode rather than one.

 

No, it accomplished things on Arthur's end too: he teamed with Zelena and got to control Merlin, which is pivotal for 5x08's events that lead to Hook's near-death situation.

 

Middles were also a problem way back in S1. The main story slogs from 1x08 to 1x16, and doesn't begin to pick up again until Jefferson. That doesn't necessarily mean that all the episodes in the middle were bad, but they were not focused on the original momentum or Emma breaking the curse. 

 

Yes, this is completely true (though I think 1x09 started it, not 1x08).  It's only that the quality of episodes were (mostly) better in that middle than they usually are in the later seasons / story arcs.  It also helped that there wasn't a huge crisis going on in town AND that most of the flashbacks in the episodes were still necessary pieces to a larger backstory.

 

Heck, I don't even think the Storybrooke stuff in 5A has been all that necessary. The Nevengers in Camelot stuff has much more interesting.

 

Agreed.  The change in wardrobe for everyone also makes it more enjoyable.

 

With 4B, they had a plan, but that plan turned out to have very little to do with the actual plot

 

 

And unlike with 2A and 3A, it was a STUPID plan that hurt more than it helped.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

Doing a NELB rewatch (No Episode Left Behind) for science. I want to put past episodes fresh in my memory so I can draw better comparisons and create more detailed discussion.

 

7:15AM is not that great of an episode. It's in the middle of the infamous mid-S1 drag, which doesn't help it. In the flashbacks, Snow meets the dwarves and admits her love for Charming. They get separated by King George and the angst train begins to chug away. The FTL events are definitely the stronger side of this one. The plot moves quite a bit there and the cliffhanger is unsettling. If I had to find something to complain about it, it's Snowing's romance moving too fast. Chronologically this is several months after their first meeting. But apparently they've been thinking about each other this whole time without acting on those feelings. Whenever I remembered this episode before, I thought more happened between Snow Falls and then. The rewatch really highlights how much of a love-at-first-sight Disney cliche their relationship was.

 

The present story was boring to say the least. Emma and Regina were investigating August and getting no answers while MM was trying to save a bird. Not all that interesting. Maybe I'm too apathetic, but I really didn't care if it came back to its flock. It was just a plot device to bring MM and David together. Which... well... is okay. Forcing them together in a cabin during a storm is adequate for hashing out angst. MM's near death at the cliff was a little over the top for the context. The whole MM/David/Kathryn drama doesn't get too engaging until the murder case later where things get meaty.

 

Some of the midseason drag is okay. Hansel and Gretel was a nice little story and the Emma/Rumple reactions in 1x08 were cool. I'm still trekking through it. The Snowing and MM/David stuff have been a haze for me because the flashbacks jump around a lot and in the present the love triangle flip-flops sporadically. So that timeline is starting to straighten out for me now.

 

I felt so sorry for Kathryn.

Edited November 24, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[HoodlumSheep]

^ I don't think 7:15AM is all great either.

I'm torn on where I'll be placing 5a in the list of best to worst. It largely depends on if they muck up the last two episodes or not, I guess. I'm just so worried they're gonna pull a "Heroes and Villains" level of quality (or Op. Mongoose pt 2) because I think there's a truck load of stuff they need to get through. So even though the writers say the ending will have payoff, I'm worried that it will be too rushed to get much emotional resonance out of it.

So basically I'm hoping stuff isn't choppy and rushed.

Anyways, I'm getting off track. I feel like 5a is going to be polarizing for some, placement-wise. A lot of us tend to think season 1 is the best, etc. But I wonder where 5a is going to end up for a lot of people?

I'm not quite sure where I'll place 5a. I think it's better than 4b. I feel like it's on equalish terms for 4a about though. I like Camelot, love the costumes, like how we're getting the DO lore, I like the CS we're getting. I like how the flashbacks are mostly about the main cast. On the otherhand there's Merida, the Nevengers seem to flip flop between hope for Emma and No hope several times throughout each episode. And there's a boatload of more plotholes and the like.

I'm kind of torn.

Edited November 24, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[KingOfHearts]

 

Anyways, I'm getting off track. I feel like 5a is going to be polarizing for some, placement-wise. A lot of us tend to think season 1 is the best, etc. But I wonder where 5a is going to end up for a lot of people?

I think the climax will probably be the deciding factor. 4x11 and 3x22 both changed the average quality substantially. Right now I would probably put it above 4A and 4B, but still below 3A. There was a major shift in writing style between 3A and 3B - almost like OUAT turned into a completely different show. I'd say 5A is probably the best we've had in the newer half of OUAT, but it doesn't have the charm of S1-3A.

[Camera One]

I still like 4A more than 5A, which has been very uneven.  I'd much rather see the real Emma, an ordinary person, dealing with having magic and issues than Dark One Emma dealing with "darkness" which she may or may not have control over.

[Mathius]

I'd have to say I'm the same.  4A and 5A are about equal, but 4A edges slightly out in enjoyability, while 3A is still better than both of them (a view that was reinforced by a recent reviewing of 3A.)  Heck, I'd place 2A over both of them as well.

 

There was a major shift in writing style between 3A and 3B - almost like OUAT turned into a completely different show. I'd say 5A is probably the best we've had in the newer half of OUAT, but it doesn't have the charm of S1-3A.

 

Except for me liking 4A more than 5A (at least right now), ALL OF THIS.  

 

Messiness in the latter half of 2B aside, S1-3A felt like a full story was being told.  From 3B onward, it's just been one thinly connected story arc after another, focusing more on the shiny new toys and Villain De Jours than the main characters.

 

I suspect that A&E realize that they're best suited for anthology shows (like they would have made OUATIW if it went past one season and like they're going to do with their upcoming horror show), and so they're doing that style for OUAT now but are still under some sort of obligation to keep the main characters that they clearly no longer give a shit about (except for Regina, of course) around, yet still pretend like they're telling some full story and developing said main characters.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

 

I still like 4A more than 5A, which has been very uneven.  I'd much rather see the real Emma, an ordinary person, dealing with having magic and issues than Dark One Emma dealing with "darkness" which she may or may not have control over.

Here's my reasoning behind 5A topping 4A. Since the winter finale hasn't happened yet, I'm going to leave out 4x11. Everything that happened in Storybrooke during 4A was a freaking mess. Emma's relationship with her parents and all the angst Ingrid brought were subsequently ignored. The Love Triangle of Doom was one of the worst plots this show has ever done. (Like, Snow's black heart levels of awfulness.) That disgusting immorality Robin was spewing made me sick, what with the crypt sex and flip-flopping between women. David from S1 would even be disturbed.

 

When all of that wasn't going on, we were treated to Rumple's "cleave" mantra, Hook standing around watching his heart squeezed, Belle worshiping her lying husband's feet, Emma accepting verbal abuse from her "BFF", and Regina/Henry playing with free will by initiating Operation Stupid. 

 

Present day aside, Frozen was decent. Emma's story development, though leaving a lot of payoff to be desired, was decent. At some points it was more like Once Upon Arendelle, but that wouldn't have been glaring if most of the main characters didn't get such crappy arcs. 4x01-4x04 aren't bad, and I do like them, but the nosedive at 4x05 onward is too hard to ignore. Swiss Miss didn't help its case with her grand tour of FTL and the Mary Sue sugar overload. The whole half-season is laced with contrivances and plot holes to boot. There's just more to hate than to love in 4A for me.

 

 

S1-3A felt like a full story was being told

 

This. 3B was the point when A&E just lost any ideas for a long-term, cohesive story. The Villain De Jours formula did start with Pan, but it didn't detract from the main plot as much as Zelena, Ingrid or the Queens of Darkness did. Saving Henry might have been the crisis of the week, but the arc was really about the Nevengers uniting as a team. The focus didn't stray from the lingering ramifications of S2. You had Hook's true introduction, Emma coming to terms with Neal's role in her life, Regina working on her trust issues, Snowing planning their future, and Rumple facing the origins of his cowardice head-on. All these plot threads tied a lot up.

 

3B doesn't necessarily unravel what's been concluded, but it doesn't know where to go from there. Its desperation to find new territory shows, but it doesn't really go anywhere either. Zelena is largely irrelevant, Emma's search for home was mishandled until the finale, and Snowing and Regina's storylines are both obligatory and boring. They receive tokens for their good behavior - a baby and a boyfriend. Henry gets a grand total of nothing and Emma gets reset to her 3A self in the end. (Albeit with a canon pirate love interest.) Neal's death is also predictable and obligatory.

 

The Missing Year had the potential to repeat the grand scale of S1's mystery, but it's forgone in favor of Zelena and time travel. Today it's as if it never happened. Zelena might have been more worth it if she returned in 4A instead of 4B, or if Zarian brought more continuity with some breadcrumbs spread about.

 

But yeah. There's definitely a stark difference between S1-3A and 3B-onward.

Edited November 25, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[retrograde]

(I think this is the right place for this discussion) From the media thread:

There's a controversial characters article complete with voting at Tvline.com. Apparently, Hook is more controversial than Regina. Who knew?

http://tvline.com/gallery/greys-anatomy-arrow-once-tv-characters-love-or-hate/#!&ref=/2015/11/27/greys-anatomy-arrow-once-upon-a-time-love-or-hate-tv-characters/pos=

 

 

Yeah, I wouldn't have picked Hook as the most polarizing character. But not Regina either (outside of this forum, I think she's generally loved). I actually think a lot of viewers don't like Emma, as weird as that seems. But I would probably have picked Belle as the most polarizing. Seems like people either really love or really hate her. And maybe Neal? Though I feel most people either hated Neal or were just tepid about him.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But I would probably have picked Belle as the most polarizing. Seems like people either really love or really hate her. And maybe Neal? Though I feel most people either hated Neal or were just tepid about him.

Belle fans are a niche, imo. I don't think people are as fond of her as they are with Rumpbelle. Neal I would say was more controversial. I've seen more divided opinions on him from casual and analytical viewers alike.

[Dianthus]

I can imagine a certain percentage of fans liking Regina, just because a certain percentage of people are into Authoritarianism (Trump followers come to mind), but I can't imagine her being widely popular. OTOH, I despise her with every fiber of my being, so I'm a tad biased. I voted pro Bud (Grimm) and pro Hook. Other than that, I haven't really watched the other shows to be familiar with the characters in question.

[retrograde]

Whenever I read forums or comment threads on less fan-y sites and recaps, Regina seems widely, widely beloved. Hell, I never really saw the issues with her character until I started reading TWoP recaps and these forums. And even now, I still enjoy her snarkiness and generally like the character.

 

ETA: I decided to look at the Funkopop figurines' rankings on Amazon to see which had sold the most. In order from most to least popular: Hook, Emma, Regina, Rumple, Snow, Charming, The "Hero" set (Emma, Snowing) is also much, much more popular than the "Villain" set (Hook, Regina, Rumple), which surprises me.

Edited November 28, 2015 by retrograde

[Camera One]

I don't really have a lot of sympathy for Arthur and I find it hard to blame Merlin for him unless there was a lot more tree communication than we know about. I don't really see how you get from "you can be the king and restore the kingdom by pulling the sword from the stone" to using magic to manipulate the entire kingdom and brainwash your wife.

 

However, I have a hard time seeing Merlin as a good guy. Maybe he was limited in what he could communicate when he was stuck in a tree and resorting to astral projection, or whatever, but once he was de-treed, what was stopping him from telling people things? Yeah, maybe telling them what he saw in prophecies would be risky because that sort of thing never goes well, but why not give practical advice like "avoid getting cut by Excalibur because that'll kill you" or "here are the potential consequences if you take Excalibur"? Or going further back in time, why not do something to protect the villages being attacked by the murderous lunatic? I really liked Merlin in his earlier appearance, but right now I think he needs to be taken out for the greater good.

 

As predicted before Merlin appeared, no one asked him anything and he didn't explain anything.  Even if he isn't meant to be shady, it creates the impression that he is.  In the name of creating suspense and "surprising" the audience, certain characters end up looking really bad, and Merlin may be one of the casualties of this.  

 

Unless he was intentionally playing with everyone, it's a bit harsh to say he needs to be "taken out", though.  It's not like he has any useful powers beyond unreliable foresight.  He certainly didn't predict Arthur enslaving him.  But wowie, he predicted a random guard was going to turn the corner.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the writers aren't getting characters to ask Merlin anything because they haven't made up the answers to why "The Sorcerer", as he was known in Season 4, did any of the one hundred and one random things he did.  

Edited November 28, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I'm still trying to figure out why Merlin decided he needed a mansion in Storybrooke after the second curse. I mean, he prophesied that the Saviour would rescue him from the tree, so did he set up the whole thing to put things in motion such that he would be freed from the tree? Because that's seriously gross to destroy all those lives as a method to making his prophecy come true.

[InsertWordHere]

For Regina, I think most of the general audience who dislike her dropped out in Season 2. 

Belle fans are a niche, imo. I don't think people are as fond of her as they are with Rumpbelle. Neal I would say was more controversial. I've seen more divided opinions on him from casual and analytical viewers alike.

I'm even divided against myself with Neal. Sucky, smug ex-boyfriend Neal? Hate him. Snarky, estranged son who does the Rumple sarcastically? I would have loved to see more of him. 

[KingOfHearts]

Rewatched Dreamy, an episode I've had a history of disliking. Honestly, it wasn't as insolent as I remembered. There was definitely sections where it fails, and you can tell A&E wrote it themselves, but its issues are actually the solutions for the problems we have now. There is a great deal of worldbuilding, both in the past and present. It slows the story down considerably without stifling character development. It has its own self-contained story that gels well with everything else going on. As far as filler-y episodes go, this is one of the better ones.

 

The flashbacks, however, were far too weird and cheesy for my tastes. The concepts are creative, I'll give it that, but they're not always very comfortable. The dwarves are a slave race incapable of experiencing love and Blue is shady as heck. Somehow she knew when Dreamy was sneaking out, where he would be, and that he and Nova were planning to leave. She was also conspiring with Bossy and says to Dreamy that his love was "only a dream". How does that make sense? It's never really explained how the fairy dust allowed him to love yet apparently not. Knowing what I know now, the most ridiculous scene is probably Belle giving love advice. That's like Regina giving tips on healthy mothering.

 

I really, really like the Storybrooke stuff though. Mary Margaret and Leroy are an awesome pairing, especially at that point in time where they were "town harlot and the town drunk". They have a lot of acting chemistry here. Miner's Day is a neat idea and helps flesh out the world the characters live in. I just noticed upon rewatch that the tradition of nuns trading candles for coal from the miners is a direct parallel to the fairies and dwarves. We don't get to this level of charming mundane life any more.

 

While the main plot is happening, we have Kathryn missing and Mary Margaret humiliated in a public scandal. It's nice to see Emma just doing her job with very little emotional involvement. It makes everything feel more realistic, which contrasts nicely with the rest of the episode. My only real gripe in that department is Emma's blind trust in Sidney. The idiot ball is definitely in her hand with that one. Mary Margaret's attempts to win back the hearts of her fellow citizens ushers in some great character development for her. I like the cliffhanger when she sees David enter the sheriff's car.

 

This episode slows down and spends time laying out the show's mythology. Before I've thought it drags too much, but nowadays I miss it dearly. There's flaws and aspects I don't prefer to see, but it's absolutely not found on the list of horrible episodes.

[Camera One]

I've always liked "Dreamy", mostly because I'm the type of viewer who doesn't mind it if the story slows down, but only if it's for world/mythology building or for character moments/development.  To me, "Dreamy" did a bit of both.  I had been curious about the fairies, and even though the whole concept of the dwarf eggs were plain weird and something you don't want to think about *too* deeply, it was establishing how the Enchanted Forest worked.  And I too loved how Mary Margaret and Leroy reconnected, even though they didn't know they were friends.  The show has failed in doing this type of episode in recent seasons.  "The Bear King" is the most recent example of slowing down, but with no attempt to use the regular cast, exploring a guest star who's frankly unlikeable and has already been given way too much screentime, and not even establishing where her kingdom actually fits in the Enchanted Forest world, despite bringing back two older characters whose backgrounds could have used more fleshing out.  If they wanted to waste an episode on filler, they could have shown Red's adventures once she returned to the Enchanted Forest, and maybe she meets Mulan who was alone wandering the forest because the Merry Men had all disappeared.  The flashbacks could have told "Once"'s version of the events of "Mulan" and why she became a soldier and eventually left her Kingdom.  It could end with Mulan and Red stumbling upon Granny's in the forest and being reunited with Granny, Snow and Co, and joining the fight to end the season.  Yes, that would be completely disconnected from the plot in Camelot but I'd rather have seen that than Red and Mulan holding a pep rally for Merida, and Arthur/Zelena looking for a helmet that they're going to forget about in the upcoming episode.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Camera One

[LizaD]

TWoP recaps and these forums

TWOP forums are notorious for flat out uber loathing Mary Sues in ALL shows, of Lana Lang fame comes to mind. This forum seemed to have been the alternative after it closed so it's no surprise that the sentiment followed. If you look at S1 recaps it was Emma that was the target because everyone thought she was the de facto Mary Sue. When that proved to not be true any longer the hate transferred to the real Mary Sue. It reminds me a lot of Lana vs Chloe wars where Emma is Chloe. But it's almost blasphemous to compare Lana Lang with Woegina. Lana Lang would be Chloe compared to her.

Whenever I read forums or comment threads on less fan-y sites and recaps, Regina seems widely, widely beloved.

Except this doesn't hold up with the "real" audience. Her arcs always rate lower and it was her arc in 2B that cratered this show from a genuine mainstream hit to a more cultish genre show, right along with its rabid fans.

Hero" set (Emma, Snowing) is also much, much more popular than the "Villain" set (Hook, Regina, Rumple), which surprises me

I'm not. First Snowing are the only ones that are from genuine Disney's bread and butter princesses line, even if it's the bastardized form. Second, while the most rabid and loud onliners seems to gravitate towards villains, it doesn't mean the general population doesn't like heroes. Disney animation made billions off of "heroes" that has stood the test of time. You know it's the Avengers and all the other comic book superheros that command billion dollars franchises for decades. It was the Harry Potter universe that did the same, not the Voldemort universe, even though there are plenty of rabid fans for him too. Generally people want to root for the good guys to win at the end of the day, whether it be genuine good guys or misunderstood good guys. And not of the "No Regrets" slaughtering villages got lasagna-rejected variety of "good guys." This isn't to say there isn't a faction that root for the Ted Bundys and fall in love with them. But it's not mainstream sentiment is it?

What Once fails to realize is that villains can only be as interesting as the heroes are and vice versa along with the bone of contention. And since they believe that heroes are bland and boring their villains also falls flat most of the time. S1 only worked well for Rump and Woegina because Bandit Snow was a viable hero fighting against them for a good reason. I don't think Emma was up to par in S1 but at least she had a legit purpose while Snow did the heavy lifting.

Pan worked well cause the team as a whole proved to be worthy of his villainy. Hook had it easy to come up against a character like Rump. Who exactly were the QoD fighting against? Whiny Woegina about her author getting her a happy ending? Sniveling Snowing and their "my baby is going to be so dark?" It's no surprise that Cruella was the most successful of the bunch when she had the least amount of ties and contact with that hero crew. Look at Zelena. What can she do with the black hole of suck that is OQ?

[retrograde]

TWOP forums are notorious for flat out uber loathing Mary Sues in ALL shows

Sure -- I was around since Dawson's Wrap days -- but I just don't think those views are widespread. 

 

Except this doesn't hold up with the "real" audience. Her arcs always rate lower and it was her arc in 2B that cratered this show from a genuine mainstream hit to a more cultish genre show, right along with its rabid fans.

There was SO much bad about 2B it seems hard to pin on Regina. I almost stopped watching at the time -- I was more of a casual viewer then -- because of the Greg and Tamara stuff.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Except this doesn't hold up with the "real" audience. Her arcs always rate lower and it was her arc in 2B that cratered this show from a genuine mainstream hit to a more cultish genre show, right along with its rabid fans.

 

The further this show gets away from its fairy tale mashup roots, the more viewers it loses. I don't think you can blame it on any one character except to say that maybe the bigger the change to popular characters, the more people will leave. If you loved the over the top Evil Queen, Bandit!Snow and sparkly Rumpel and their scheming counterparts Mayor Mills & Mr Gold or even nice, but still had a spine Mary Margaret, the current version of this show isn't going to interest you as much. They don't live here anymore. Everyone's been reduced to a blander or even unrecognizable shadow of their former selves. That these characters are now fighting equally bland villains doesn't help. The stories in this show have never been that strong and it's the characters that kept people coming back. They just haven't evolved the characters to interesting places and can't seem to let go of storytelling methods that no longer work with their current character set.

[YaddaYadda]

Not sure if this is unpopular or not but I don't like Dark One Emma's new house. I don't think it really suits her or Killian (though I do think it's sweet that he chose such a large home with garden space, because it suggests that he'd like to have children with her in the future). Maybe that'd change if they redecorated it and gave it a bit more life and colour. But as it is, I don't think much of it.

 

I hope this is the right thread to reply to this.

 

About the house, I agree that it's a bit impersonal, and it doesn't look like it's lived in. Whether they keep it or ditch it remains to be seen, but it occurred to me that we just don't know what Emma or Hook want, and why he (because he chose the house) would go for something like that.

 

That's the thing with Once. Emma has been bounced from foster place to foster place, she's never lived somewhere she can call home. There are hints that she wouldn't been adverse to a marriage proposal. We know she wanted her own place because she mentioned it like 3 times in the same episode. 

 

And he's lived on a ship for like a billion years now. 

 

We have no idea what their tastes would be like, or what they would want. He seems to be just happy being close to the ocean. She seems happy to have something stable. And we don't know what they want out of their future, though they both seem to be on the same track.

 

Hook seems to have tried to put scraps of people's lives together to form something that looks like a family, or feels like one. He tried it with Milah, he tried with Bae when he was on his ship, his crew which he doesn't even seem to be all that fond of. So I'm assuming given that the house has the backyard, a bedroom, and a whole 3rd floor that can be split into a bedroom, and other (yes, I read the ad), that he has that in mind when it comes to where he thinks his future with Emma will lead. But does Emma want another child since she already has one?

 

I didn't even think Rumple wanted to be a father again until he wrote himself a baby in the AU. I thought he was done with that after the whole Neal/Bae, and the tragic ending of that part of his life. But it's clearly something he's thought about.

 

I wish this show would slowdown and let explore the characters more, where I don't have to wonder why Hook thought that house would be a great choice, and why Henry would've approved. Or where Robin doesn't have to tip toe around Regina, especially since she had that moment when she looked like it wasn't about whether or not she can love the baby Zelena had just given birth to, but that she seemed like she actually loved her, end of story.

[Mathius]

Except this doesn't hold up with the "real" audience. Her arcs always rate lower and it was her arc in 2B that cratered this show from a genuine mainstream hit to a more cultish genre show, right along with its rabid fans.

 

Some interesting posts concerning the show's ratings agree with this.

 

The conclusion come to in the last one is interesting, saying that given trends in the ratings low points, the characters that are the biggest turn off for the majority of the audience (at least in the key demographic) are Regina and the ones closest to her: Henry, Robin Hood and Zelena (though to be fair, Henry was apparently hated waaay before he became completely sycophantic to Regina.  Actually, he seems to have been hated before Regina herself was!)

 

Also, I love how 3B kept spiking up whenever an episode heavily featuring Zelena looked like it was going to be exciting and that she was going to be a cool villain, and then dropped right back down afterward because no, it was not and she was not.  It happened thrice!  You'd think people would have learned after the second time with her lame origin story.

 

For Regina, I think most of the general audience who dislike her dropped out in Season 2.

 

True, though it looks like Season 4 turned a whole new portion of the remaining audience against her.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

If viewers had a problem with Regina herself, I think they would have taken more issue with S1. The turn-off was the plots they were giving her, imo. Her flip-flopping with Cora, her lackluster romance, Operation Mongoose, etc. Especially in S2, characters were being assassinated left and right to support these storylines. Regina is iconic to the show, but despite all the attention she's given from the writers and fans alike, she gets the crappiest stories.

[Mari]

If viewers had a problem with Regina herself, I think they would have taken more issue with S1. The turn-off was the plots they were giving her, imo.

Personally, for at least some, it's likely a bit of both.  I wasn't a Regina fan in season 1, but she was an interesting adversary.

 

I nearly stopped watching in season 2.  It wasn't just Regina, or the stories around Regina--it was a combination of being completely uninterested in the glaringly obvious emotional manipulation the show was doing with Regina, the ridiculous stories around her, as well as the truly horrible Tamara and Greg plot, and the yucktastic way they handled the Baelfire/Neal/Emma situation.

 

Since I was in it for Emma and the Charmings, 2B was enough to nearly kill the show for me.  As much as I liked them, I was not interested in watching another season of Regina being horrible without repercussions while we were told she was the victimiest victim to ever victim.  

 

The only reason I stuck around was the last few minutes of the season finale--all of those characters getting on the boat to Neverland, combined with some spoilers I read over the summer, convinced me to give the season 3 first episode a chance.  I stuck with season 3 because of the TWoP and Previously boards.  I enjoy the conversation.

 

But, given the way they handle Regina--her completely unrepentant behavior, combined with the way the stories and characters shift around her to bizarre and horrific lengths?   I don't like watching injustice after injustice while the meanest person always wins.

 

The more she's featured,  and "sassy," the more likely I am to start watching something else.    Especially now that I no longer even trust the writers when it comes to the characters I am interested in.

 

I may like Emma, Hook, David, and (occasionally, now) Snow, but if they're reduced to a few minutes per episode of uncringeworthy stuff?

 

That's what fanfiction and youtube is for, and I have no problem streaming Fringe again on Sunday nights.  It's worth a rewatch.

 

People who thought the same way I did, but weren't doing the online thing, probably just didn't stick around.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Mari