A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Camera One]

it would have been nice if an episode that carried out what the characters had been trying for all season had imparted some kind of lesson for someone.

 

Remember before 4B, A&E said this arc was supposed to be about exploring the definitions of villains and heroes.

 

The obvious ass lesson for the villains was that they were responsible for their own happiness and they rejected it when they were happy.  Look at these brilliant epiphanies Regina and Rumple had:

 

Regina (in "Mother"): But our own worst enemy isn't her or each other.  It's ourselves.  I'm so tired of standing in the way of my own happiness, and I'm not going to do it anymore.... My happy ending is finally feeling at home in the world.

 

Rumple (in "Heart of Gold"): I don't want a reminder of my failure, a reminder that all I really wanted was happiness.  And when I had it, I couldn't recognize it.  Take a piece of advice from a man who has pushed away every chance at happiness because it was never enough.... If it's within your grasp, if you know where it is and who it's with, then you should run to it, grasp it, and never let it go."

 

The other lesson was that "heroes" could stoop to the level of callously ripping a baby from their mother and condemning a young innocent girl to a life where all the cards were stacked against her.  Everyone needs forgiveness and "heroes" are no exception, and in some ways worse because they lie about it and aren't upfront about their shameful past decisions.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Camera One

[HoodlumSheep]

Was it ever discussed who would win in a magic fight? Or would that belong more in the villains thread because 98% of the magic users on Once are villains?

I can't remember if it was discussed, but I was thinking of Cora vs Ingrid for some reason.

I think Jafar could give Regina a run for her money (and would probably beat her if it's Jafar with no-rules-magic--same with Amara--, and Zelena can take Regina easily if Regina doesn't whip out her special snowflake magic.

But then there's Emma, Elsa, Maleficent, Lily I guess, Ana, Pan, Rumple, the blue fairy, Mickey the apprentice...am I missing anyone?

Edited August 9, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Shanna Marie]

The obvious ass lesson for the villains was that they were responsible for their own happiness and they rejected it when they were happy.

But they didn't learn that in "Operation Mongoose." It's a really weird story structure to have the thing the protagonists have been trying to accomplish all season happen, in the worst possible way, and have nothing come of it. The whole gang has been working to find the Author so he could rewrite Regina's story, and that happens, making her a hero, but it means nothing to any of them. Regina learned her lesson in the previous episode, but doesn't seem to make any connection between the thing she's been trying to do all season and what ended up happening as a result of her actions all season (in fact, she denies responsibility). Rumple had his epiphany two episodes before, but that didn't stop him from having things rewritten anyway. Structurally, Henry should have been the one to learn A Valuable Lesson in "Operation Mongoose," since he was the biggest cheerleader of the project and he was the one who was fully aware of what was going on and how it happened. It could have been a big coming of age moment for him, as experiencing life in the Enchanted Forest might have made him realize that fairy tales weren't just stories, that this was real life for these people, and it's not all black and white, with heroes guaranteed to win and everything tied up in a neat bow in the end. People get hurt and die, sacrifices might come to nothing, villains who do a turnaround don't always get a great outcome, bursting into the church at the last moment doesn't do anything but disrupt a wedding and cause hurt feelings, etc. He did break the quill, but just like with Regina, he didn't seem to be making any connection between what was happening to him and what he'd been trying to make happen all season. There was no sense while he was going through all these things that he was aware that rewriting the story was bad. It was like it was only bad because Isaac was doing it and it wouldn't have been bad if they'd just rewritten things for Regina, and never mind the ripple effect because changing things for Regina would mean changing other lives.

 

If we were going to spend all season on a plot whose outcome was obvious from the moment it was first stated, then I feel like we needed more than Regina just remembering something she should have been able to remember all along. It would have been more interesting if, say, Regina had gone through with rewriting things, had herself made into a hero (which would have made the role switch between her and Snow make more sense), and then realized that Snow's life sucked even worse than hers. Or if she'd still been herself and had won, and a world where she got everything she wanted was a hellish dystopia and she still wasn't happy because she would always want more. Instead, we got a whole season of whining and working on "Operation Mongoose," only to have her just realize the obvious, and then have what she was trying for happen, with her taking no responsibility for it.

 

I've been skimming through 2A, and the more I watch that arc, the more I like it. I like Team Princess, especially Snow getting to be a badass back on her home turf. I love David stepping up as a leader back home (and I wish they'd done more with that and the concept that the farmboy was having to really be a prince) and I love David and Henry's relationship. Hook and Cora are so much fun as villains. I even like Belle in her friendship with Ruby (though she really comes across as an idiot with Rumple). Regina's not so bad because she's showing some signs of self awareness and guilt, before the whining kicks in. The others are allowed to acknowledge Regina's culpability in messing up their lives. It's sad how the show just imploded after that arc. It's like the writers completely lost touch with their own creation.

[Camera One]

If we were going to spend all season on a plot whose outcome was obvious from the moment it was first stated, then I feel like we needed more than Regina just remembering something she should have been able to remember all along. It would have been more interesting if, say, Regina had gone through with rewriting things, had herself made into a hero (which would have made the role switch between her and Snow make more sense), and then realized that Snow's life sucked even worse than hers. Or if she'd still been herself and had won, and a world where she got everything she wanted was a hellish dystopia and she still wasn't happy because she would always want more.

 

Yes, that would have been way better.  

 

I'm wondering... if Isaac had just written, "Rumple's heart is healed".  Would that have happened?  Would it still have meant Rumple was healed yet trapped in the Book?  

 

 

 

Was it ever discussed who would win in a magic fight?

 

Jafar was way overpowered in the spinoff.  He could pretty much do anything.  I imagine he would be closely matched to Rumple and Cora, who were the two most powerful on this show thus far.  Peter Pan seemed to be able to  overpower Rumple but maybe because he was affected by Daddy issues.  With Maleficent, who knows.  She was supposedly Rumple's student, so he probably one-ups her.

 

The purely good guys run hot and cold in terms of their power (and usually cold).  I mean, if attacked, the Blue Fairy would immediately run out of dust, and Mickey the Apprentice's Magical Broom would probably break.   Emma is erratic, while Elsa only has one trick.

 

Regina was already overpowered by Zelena.  And Ingrid had no problems against Regina alone.  It was a draw when it was Regina and Emma.  Basically, when Regina is a "good guy", she's weaker.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Camera One

[HoodlumSheep]

Jafar being overpowered near the end of Wonderland made sense though. He broke the laws of magic and could do whatever he wanted. Otherwise before that I always imagined him to be on par with Regina or better, Mainly because he actually got stuff done and could be quite ruthless.

I suppose you could say the Dark One trumps all (except for Pan maybe because *mind games*) and Mickey/...Cora/Pan with Ingrid would be next. Jafar/Amara would be next if you don't count the 2 episodes they could do whatever magic they wanted. Zelena, then Emma and Regina. Maleficent then Elsa and Ana (we really didn't get to see a whole lot of Ana's powers so it's hard to judge).

And the Blue Fairy can be stuck wherever depending on the plot.

Edited August 10, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Camera One]

I thought Jafar was even overpowered at the beginning of the series. 

[HoodlumSheep]

I thought Jafar was even overpowered at the beginning of the series.

Really? Maybe I was blinded by his awesome evilness, but I didn't think he was overpowered. I thought he had a good variety of spells in his arsenal unlike Regina, for example, who either rips out hearts, poofs places or shoots fireballs/magical aura.

Maybe it was the fact that he actually accomplished stuff and didn't stand around mwahaha-ing for 95% of the episodes that made him seem overpowered???? And yes, that was intentional shade being thrown at most Once villains.

The Wonderland crew (both good and bad sides) got stuff done I tell you!!!

**Talking about Wonderland always gets me worked up. More people should have watched it!!!! Gahhhhhh!!!!

ETA: Jafar was at least less overpowered than Zelena, who tossed everyone around like rag dolls all 3b (which was kind of disappointing; what ever happened to some variety? Jafar vs Amara had giant snakes and mirror shards! What did Regina vs Zelena have? A lousy fireball and regina gets flung into the clock tower!)

Bwaaahhh!!! I'm getting too many Wonderland feelings!!!! I think I'm going to turn in for the night before I start rage-smashing my keyboard.

Edited August 10, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Camera One]

KAOS Agent's catchword counts for Season 4 were illuminating.  It was astounding how often "heroes", "villains" and "happy endings" were used.

 

Those quotes from Regina and Rumple above made me wonder how often "happy" and "happiness" appeared in 4B.  Only some of these were in conjunction with endings.

 

"Operation Mongoose" had 28 (18 mentions of "happy" and 10 for "happiness").  

"Mother" had 18.

"Heart of Gold" had 14.

"Poor Unfortunate Souls" had 12.

 

Four more episodes had 6-9 mentions ("Darkness", "Unforgiven", "Enter The Dragon", "Best Laid Plans").  The remaining two episodes each had 3 mentions each.

 

In contrast, I checked the scripts for "Game of Thrones".  This past season, every episode had the word "happy" in it, but the count never exceeded twice in the same episode.

[KAOS Agent]

I'm trying to figure out the catchwords for Season 5. I'm planning on "Darkness" but I'm sure there'll be something else to hammer home each episode. Whatever the theme is, I'm sure it will be repeated ad nauseum in the premiere.

 

 

Structurally, Henry should have been the one to learn A Valuable Lesson in "Operation Mongoose," since he was the biggest cheerleader of the project and he was the one who was fully aware of what was going on and how it happened....He did break the quill, but just like with Regina, he didn't seem to be making any connection between what was happening to him and what he'd been trying to make happen all season. There was no sense while he was going through all these things that he was aware that rewriting the story was bad. It was like it was only bad because Isaac was doing it.

 

I remember watching the scene between the Apprentice & Henry and being fairly appalled that despite going through that whole mess and seeing how badly things get when you rewrite the book, Henry hadn't learned a thing. He was sitting there thinking about how he should write his dad back alive & well. There was just no connection that that would be a bad thing to do. He really only broke the quill after that was taken off the table as a possibility. Apparently, seeing Hook die and Regina on the brink of it didn't make him realize that doing anything other than recording events is a bad, selfish thing that can have massively terrible consequences. It also tells me that he doesn't see anything wrong with having spent all that time working away so that Regina could have told the story rather than Rumpel & Isaac.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I thought Jafar was even overpowered at the beginning of the series.

Jafar looked overpowered because there was really no match for him magic-wise until the Jabberwocky. Ana tried to appear intimidating as the Red Queen, but truthfully she was an amateur when it came to magic. If you had someone like the Mills girls or Rumple in there, they could probably best him. Jafar was just every unopposed for the first half.

 

Oddly enough, Wonderland doing the whole "breaking the laws of magic" worked a lot better than 3B. It was probably because the ingredients were actually difficult to obtain and the entire series revolved around it. It wasn't like they needed a focal point for one arc. It was treated as a very big deal that only happened once. The parent show, however, loves to break its own rules all the time. The time travel worked better as an adventure for Captain Swan than as Zelena's main scheme.

Edited August 10, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

I remember watching the scene between the Apprentice & Henry and being fairly appalled that despite going through that whole mess and seeing how badly things get when you rewrite the book, Henry hadn't learned a thing. He was sitting there thinking about how he should write his dad back alive & well.

 

Eh! I'm sort of ready to cut Henry some slack on this since he seemed to equate bringing back Hook to bringing back the dead for some reason and I can understand the instinct of wanting to bring back someone you love who died. Let's face it, Henry did not have much of an opportunity to be with Neal or spend all that much time with him.  

 

That being said, that scene screamed of plot for anyone who wanted, thought that Neal could/would/should be brought back.

 

"WE'RE NOT BRINGING HIM BACK, OK!" ~signed all the writers of OUAT.

[HoodlumSheep]

Oddly enough, Wonderland doing the whole "breaking the laws of magic" worked a lot better than 3B. It was probably because the ingredients were actually difficult to obtain and the entire series revolved around it. It wasn't like they needed a focal point for one arc. It was treated as a very big deal that only happened once. The parent show, however, loves to break its own rules all the time. The time travel worked better as an adventure for Captain Swan than as Zelena's main scheme.

I agree with this. We know Jafar spent a very, very long time trying to collect 3 genie bottles (which appear to be a decently rare commodity). It was actually a struggle for him, which made breaking the laws of magic seem like a legit threat.

All Zelena had to do was find some courage, a brain, and a resilient heart, plus some innocence. Which wouldn't be that hard to find. Heck, she thwarted her own plan because of her wanting revenge against Regina. She could have stayed right in the EF, used Philora's baby, steal Charming's or someone's courage, and still get a hold of Regina's heart and Rumple's brain.

There was literally no reason for her to come to Storybrooke.

* I'll also add that I agree that Ana seemed to only know enough magic to be decently threatening and not have to worry about the peasants. I wish we got to see more magic from her though, she didn't really use it that much in the back half, but I thought that fit well with her character arc.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that having very few magical characters in Wonderland worked to it's advantage. You had Jafar who could outclass Ana, and Amara (once she showed up). The Jabberwocky is considered a creature/monster, so I don't really include her in the wizard/witch category.

With the gaggle of magical people on Once, I'm always wondering why there isn't always a wizard duel happening every time a new magical threat appears. You got to see it a bit with Emma/Elsa vs Ingrid, but otherwise what's stopping the Blue Fairy, Emma, Regina, etc. from working together and throwing down with the big bad?

Oh wait, crazy plot contrivance stops them. Had rumple not been under Zelena's control she would have been gone in 2 secs, Rumple could have taken on Pan (and enlisted Regina for help if he needed it), etc. A&E continually have to come up with stronger and stronger evil, magical characters and plot conveniences to make sure the good guys have trouble facing the bad guy.

I'm also one of the people who will give Henry some slack with the Neal thing. At least we get to see him react a little to his dad's death (didn't see too much from Rumple, Emma didn't seem to affected by Ingrid's death, etc. because characters aren't allowed to think about it too long). Him being tempted by the power of the magic quill seems natural if his father recently died.

Edited August 10, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Amerilla]

I'm also one of the people who will give Henry some slack with the Neal thing. At least we get to see him react a little to his dad's death (didn't see too much from Rumple, Emma didn't seem to affected by Ingrid's death, etc. because characters aren't allowed to think about it too long). Him being tempted by the power of the magic quill seems natural if his father recently died.

 

I'm pro-Henry on this one as well. So few of the characters every get to voice the traumas they've suffered, it's downright refreshing to see any type of emotional continuity. By the end of S4, Neal's only been dead for, what, a month or two? It's more that understandable that the wound is still fresh.

 

That being said, that scene screamed of plot for anyone who wanted, thought that Neal could/would/should be brought back.

"WE'RE NOT BRINGING HIM BACK, OK!" ~signed all the writers of OUAT.

Nah, they never gave a crap about Nealfire fans. I see these repeated HE'S NEVER COMING BACK things as a sign of their own insecurity over what they've done. They spent almost two seasons building up to this character's arrival, killed him off twice in 17 episodes, and gave him about 30 seconds of development. This is not their crowning achievement as writers.

 

As much as they might claim they think killing him off was the only logical move, it created an unnecessary void in their narrative. Killing Neal destroyed Rumpel by removing the driving force at the heart of his character - the idea that however much the Dark One may have consumed of his original self, his love for his lost child kept that glimmer of humanity and hope alive within him. Without that, and without having built compelling relationships with Belle or Henry, he's lost all his dimensionality. And they are completely clueless as to how to write themselves out of that hole.

 

I think they're fighting two different urges: they want to forget that Neal ever happened, so they try to minimize his importance, as we saw in 4b when Rumpel is suddenly all "dude, I don't know this Neal fellow that well why would I want a box full of his stuff?" with Robin and Henry is cynically playing the orphan card and Charming is opining "we should have gone with Baelfire." At the same time, they know Neal happened, and they know they full well they violate their own "rules" whenever they f**k they want to. So when there's a logical hole in the story where "hey, I could bring my dad/son/whatever back!" crops up, they feel like they need to come up with some contrivance to explain why it ain't happening. It would be so much less obvious if they just did what they usually do and ignore the obvious plot hole.

[Rumsy4]

Season 4 Deleted Scenes.

 

Two of them are scenes mainly with Regina, and there is an unremarkable Rumple-Belle scene. 

 

Looks like Robin did give Roland the forgetting potion. Also, Emma delivers a warning to Lily to not hurt her parents (but apparently does nothing to make sure of that). 

Edited August 10, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

Also, Emma delivers a warning to Lily to not hurt her parents (but apparently does nothing to make sure of that).

 

I'm sort of glad that did not make it because I hate warnings that have no follow-up to them.  That being said, no one knew Lily could turn into a raging dragon, so I can sort of hand wave the whole thing and I don't even remember what triggered the whole thing.  

 

The scene with Rumple and Regina actually explains how Regina even knew that a TLK might work on Rumple.  That would have answered that, I guess.

[Camera One]

Interesting.  I always like watching deleted scenes.

 

The Rumple and Belle one... I'm pretty sure I've watched that scene before.  I guess this is variant #5000.  

 

The extended scenes with Emma, Regina and Lily arriving back in town... the sequence of conversations was really odd and awkward.  Henry said I'm sorry to Regina because?  Was he referring to Marion or that Zelena was pregnant?  Robin coming up to Regina while she was leading Zelena to the cells and saying "Things can still work out" was just horrible timing... couldn't he talk to Regina privately later?  It was just done to give Zelena another chance to make sneering remarks.  The only part of that scene which had any worth was Robin scowling at Zelena.  So I guess Adam might not have known the forgetting potion was deleted?  But why did he say viewers can work it out?  This deleted scene spells it out with no ambiguity.  Emma threatening Lily was pointless since it had zero consequence.  

 

I actually thought the Regina/Rumple scene would have been a good addition.  I liked the Granny fakeout (though it gave me false hope she would get some speaking lines), and as YaddaYadda said, it explains how Regina found out about Rumple's weakness for Belle.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I'm wondering... if Isaac had just written, "Rumple's heart is healed".  Would that have happened?  Would it still have meant Rumple was healed yet trapped in the Book?

This is where I don't understand how the Author stuff was supposed to work (and I doubt the writers did, either). Why did this create an entire alternate reality that could be undone when the other things we saw the Author do didn't? Or did they, and since it was just one sentence, it played out to "The End" and became real? So are they currently in the AU created when, say, he wrote Cruella having power over animals or the Apprentice scamming Snow and Charming? Or did it only create an AU when the Author wrote it as a story and made that his published book? In which case, we have a classic case of Villain Overreach Failure because just writing "Rumple's heart is healed and Isaac becomes a bestselling author" while Isaac wrote a different novel not using the quill might have worked and not been undone. They wouldn't even have wanted to undo Rumple's heart being healed. But by creating a whole AU, it had to be undone, and so the whole plan was ruined.

 

Then there's the fact that Isaac told Rumple that the past couldn't be changed, but the situation created in the AU required the past for everyone to be changed -- Rumple was never the Dark One and his son had been killed by ogres, Regina was abandoned by her mother and never became the queen, Snow had been in love with James instead of David, Hook had never been captain of the Jolly Roger, etc.

 

 I'm sort of ready to cut Henry some slack on this since he seemed to equate bringing back Hook to bringing back the dead for some reason and I can understand the instinct of wanting to bring back someone you love who died. Let's face it, Henry did not have much of an opportunity to be with Neal or spend all that much time with him.

I don't blame him for that, either. The question had to be asked, and I thought he asked as though he was already pretty sure of the answer, but he still had to at least ask. The poor kid has always been desperate for family. The way he latched onto David on season two was sweet but also sad because he was so hungry to have a "dad" figure in his life. Then he meets his dad and gets to spend about five minutes with him before he's believed killed, then about five more minutes before they're separated by worlds, and then his father dies while he's still in a state where he doesn't remember him. He never really got to know him as a person.

 

Where I do blame him, though, is in never seeming to have any moment of "oh, this is what we set in motion, and it was wrong, and what would have happened if we'd tried to rewrite things?" realization during all his adventures in the AU. He is taking responsibility for trying to set things right, but that's to get his world back the way he wants it. After all the time he spent obsessing over Operation Dumbass, he never seems to make any kind of connection between that and what he's experiencing. Even breaking the quill didn't seem connected to him having learned that you have to write your own happy ending. Regina learned that, but Henry was right alongside her and he doesn't seem to have realized that.

 

Though it would have helped if the AU had anything to do with what had been set up in the "villains don't get happy endings" plot. All it did was switch the names of the villains and heroes and relabel a few other people. I think it would have been a lot stronger, and would have led to a better lesson for Henry, if it really had been a world where the villains won, and he saw the outcome of what he was trying to achieve, or if maybe he'd had an object lesson in why villains don't get happy endings, that it's not some kind of story rule, but the result of their actions -- they go about it in the wrong way (as Hook learned from Ariel) or they're never happy because they always want more. It's just bizarre that they spent the entire season on this plot and acting like it was a good idea, then it happened, and it was a bad idea, the act of a villain, and no one seemed to notice.

[Camera One]

I think the reason why Henry wasn't afforded a lesson to learn was because A&E doesn't think about Henry as a character in his own right.  His role helping Regina find the Author was solely for plot and as a prop, to give short catch-up scenes for viewers, and to give Regina someone to talk to in 4A.  The scene at the end of the 4B finale between Henry and the Apprentice was simply a roundabout way to define the limits of the Author's powers and to further restrict it with Henry breaking the Quill.

 

I was skeptical before 4B that the Author stuff would make sense by the end of it, and I think we can now conclude that it was a fail.  This was the Apprentice's long-winded explanation to Henry.  Part of this I'm sure was to explain to dimwit viewers who didn't "understand" the nonsensical AU.

 

APPRENTICE: Henry, not even an author can bring back the dead, no matter how much they might wish it.
HENRY: But Hook was dead, and then I brought him back to life.
APPRENTICE:  Hook's death was never real.  That was a fiction created by Isaac.  And now, thanks to you, that fiction has been erased.  You see? All gone.  But your father, Baelfire, died in the real world.  And that, sadly, can never be undone.  The best way to show your love for those that are gone is to tell their stories.  Now, this book, these stories can never be erased, because they are more than stories.
They are the truth.   And the truth is what you must write.  I hope that you can resist the temptation of the quill.  The power to change reality is only outweighed by the cost.  No one should have that much power.  It would seem that, this time, we have found the right person for the job."

 

Hook never died for Emma in Isaac's original fiction.  So huh?  How is the storybook "the truth", when a biased Author writes down what happens?  Why didn't Isaac change any of those stories, yet he messed with the Snowing/Maleficent one?  If "no one should have that much power", then why have that Quill in the first place?  Since we didn't even actually see the Sorcerer in Season 4, then naturally, these questions about the origins of the Author, the Quill, and a definition of that job (eg. how does he decide who should get the story?  why was Cruella's dog-training mother a worthy candidate for a story in the first place?)  should be explained in Season 5.  But somehow, I doubt it.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Camera One

[Amerilla]

The Rumple and Belle one... I'm pretty sure I've watched that scene before.

 

You literally did watch that scene before. It's just an extended version of what made it to air. 

 

I actually thought the Regina/Rumple scene would have been a good addition.  I liked the Granny fakeout (though it gave me false hope she would get some speaking lines), and as YaddaYadda said, it explains how Regina found out about Rumple's weakness for Belle.

 

Lana was all over the place in the scene, but I did like it. Makes you wonder how much they try to "fix" some of the gaps in the narrative in scenes that never make it to air because...eww, characters talking. A&E hate that.

[YaddaYadda]

i gave up trying to understand the whole Author plot because it made very little sense.  Henry showing up in the book is what changed the story because whatever Isaac wrote for Rumple wasn't written the way it ended.  Emma escaped her prison thanks to Henry and Hook, Hook managed to get over the cowardice that was written for him, Regina acted like a mother in the end to save her son from being killed, Rumple was treacherous in the end, Zelena went back to being an envious, jealous person.  

 

Snowing, however, nothing.  David kills Hook and Snow throws a fireball at Emma and Henry and then we don't see them again. They've basically stayed the same as written in the book and I'm not even sure why that is. I get why Rumple wanted to be the hero of the story, but I don't get why Regina was the hero of his story or why the book ends with Zelena and Robin's wedding especially since Rumple hijacked the whole idea.

 

That deleted scene with Regina/Rumple sort of explains the whole heart thing with Rumple which may not have come out of the right field had they kept that scene in. Sometimes, I'm not sure how they made the decision to cut something over something else.

 

About Henry and Neal, I think we tend to forget that Henry actually "mourned" his father 3 times.  The first time was when Emma lied to him and told him he had died a hero.  So Henry mourned a relationship that would never exist.  Then Neal was shot and fell through the portal after which everyone thought he had died. I'm not even sure he had time to compute because he was kidnapped like 5 seconds later.  Then the 3rd time when he died for realsies.

Edited August 10, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

 

The extended scenes with Emma, Regina and Lily arriving back in town... the sequence of conversations was really odd and awkward.

Part of me wishes they spent more time with the reunion scene on things besides Lily giving Snowing death stares. As much as many of us can't stand Zelena, I would have liked to see more reaction to her return from the Storybrookers. (Henry, Snowing, etc.) Maybe some scowls. There were some good little tidbits in the deleted scene, but the dialog was written poorly and awkwardly, as you said. 

[Writing Wrongs]

Wait, is that all of them? There has to be more. Why wouldn't they add the ones from Good Morning America?

[KAOS Agent]

 

I think the reason why Henry wasn't afforded a lesson to learn was because A&E doesn't think about Henry as a character in his own right.  His role helping Regina find the Author was solely for plot and as a prop, to give short catch-up scenes for viewers, and to give Regina someone to talk to in 4A.  The scene at the end of the 4B finale between Henry and the Apprentice was simply a roundabout way to define the limits of the Author's powers and to further restrict it with Henry breaking the Quill.

 

I agree that the whole point was to shut down further author shenanigans. The scene was basically Henry's the Author, but we're done with this storyline, so nothing to see here, move along. However, even if we remove the author AU from the lessons Henry should have learned, didn't Marian's return to life teach him anything? Emma saved a woman's life, so everyone should be happy about that right? Except it hurt Regina and Robin and Marian (we're going to ignore the whole Marian = Zelena) because life doesn't work in a neat and orderly way. It's messy. Henry himself was all yay rah over Marian dying again because it would make Regina happy.  Did he not learn anything from that little scenario? 

 

We've seen how painful Neal's resurrection was for Emma the first time. While she wouldn't react like Regina did with Marian, there would be a lot of pain all the way around. It would not be sunshine and rainbows. Not to mention, there's the whole Buffy "I was in heaven and my friends pulled me out" scenario that could be at play. Maybe Neal is happy where he is. 

 

I understand that Henry wants his dad back and I don't believe he should feel bad about that desire, but there were two lessons about how a desire to fix or change things, even if it seems like a great thing, can have bad consequences and I feel like Henry didn't learn it either time. 

[Shanna Marie]

However, even if we remove the author AU from the lessons Henry should have learned, didn't Marian's return to life teach him anything?

Ooh, good point. It would have been round 2 of that, though probably with better behavior all around, from all the players involved. Henry had just seen Hook sacrifice himself for Emma, and although he didn't hear (unless he was eavesdropping) Emma talking to Regina about the man she loves, he knows Emma and Hook are close. So what happens if Neal suddenly comes back to life? And it's even more complicated by the fact that Hook and Neal were friends. He'd be causing a lot of distress for all of them if he brought Neal back (though I don't think it would actually change much because Emma had already made it clear it wasn't going to happen with Neal, and Neal seemed to have accepted that).

 

Though I do think there's a difference between being back in time and saving a life so that the person never dies and bringing a person back to life. I'm not sure how it would have worked with the quill, if it had worked. Would someone just write "Neal is alive again," which runs the risk of a zombie crawling out of his grave (shades of FrankenDaniel), or would you rewrite the part where he died to miraculously save him, so he never died, and it turns out he's been here all along, with the timeline rewritten? Which is probably why it can't be done. You can't rewrite the past. Unless it's in a book that creates an AU, where everyone has a different history and it can be unwritten. ARRGGGHHHHH!

[MostlyC]

Pssst!  Hey guys!I hear that Neal has his own character thread.  I am sure you can discuss his life/death/possible undeath and zombification over there.  You can even discuss it in the speculation and/or Things We Want to Have Happen threads.  Unless OUAT suddenly has a zombie realm* this season, let's not dwell on it here.

 

 

 

 

Actually, a OUAT zombie season would be kind of cool.

[YaddaYadda]

Actually, a OUAT zombie season would be kind of cool.

 

No, no, no!

 

Just no!

 

No!

[Rumsy4]

No, no, no!

 

Just no!

 

No!

 

Just to be clear, no? ;-)

[YaddaYadda]

Just to be clear, no? ;-)

Yes!

 

Noooo!

[KingOfHearts]

 

No, no, no!

Are you sure you don't want to see Eva, Cora, Pan, Milah, Daniel, Graham and Neal walking around town?

[YaddaYadda]

Are you sure you don't want to see Eva, Cora, Pan, Milah, Daniel, Graham and Neal walking around town?

 

 

Pretty sure I don't.

 

And Daniel was already zombified.  He didn't die a horrible death already.

[Souris]

Death to zombies! Oh, wait….

[Camera One]

They haven't delved into Greek mythology much yet, and if they want to bring on Hercules and Hades, then there's a chance of seeing some of the dearly departed characters in the Underworld.  I remember in the run-up to 4B, when they casted Poseidon, we were wondering if they were going into Greek myth with Ursula's backstory.  LOL, what were we thinking... it is *this* show.   I still find it weird that Ursula never appeared again past the halfway point.  I'm wondering if without Disney's oversight, Elsa could have disappeared by Episode 4.  We might have gotten a Hans-travaganza, though.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I was surprised we didn't get some sort of appearance from the Queens of Darkness in 4x22, al a Frozen's epilogue.

 

As much as we were all dreading them, they were easily the best part of 4B... which really says a lot about that arc. Ursula's story was pleasant, Cruella's was fun and creative, and Maleficent's was actually sympathetic. Each of them really deserved their own spotlight or at least a B Plot. I would have loved to get more of Cruella and Ursula snarking at people around town. (Especially Regina.) I was disappointed at how Maleficent was handled, as most of the intriguing story she had going for her was paved over in favor of Lily, but I didn't hate the character. Despite the twisted morality at play, she did garner from feelings from the audience.

 

The Author plot never needed to happen. As contrived as it was, I would have rather seen more QoD.

[YaddaYadda]

So moving on from zombies and anything that comes back from the dead, in the deleted scene where Emma is threatening Lily to stay away from her parents, Emma says that she doesn't have magic outside of Storybrooke.

We know Emma's magic manifested itself at least 3 times, when she was at that fair with Ingrid, when she gave birth to Henry (though no one around her seemed to notice) and when she showed up in SB the 1st time. I'll even throw the bug's lights blowing up when she was about to shoot Lily and the weather changing.

So does that mean that her magic just sputters when her emotions are hightened in the LwM?

Emma, Zelena and Ingrid were all born with magic. Ingrid was able to use her magic in SB before magic was brought into the equation and Zelena used the Oz 6 leaf clover of contrivance to pass herself as Marian, but we don't know if either Zelena or Ingrid tried to use their magic in the LwM. Emma sure hasn't or is she just assuming her magic wouldn't work in the LwM and didn't try anything? Lily is a dragon, so she has that in her, it makes her magical on some level. I don't know, maybe she has powers like Maleficent, but she could become a dragon only in storybrooke.

Because if Emma's magic only sputters when she's emotional, then doesn't that actually change things for her now that she is the Dark One? The Dark One has no magic outside of the town. And apparently neither does Emma according to that deleted scene.

[Camera One]

That brings us to why they didn't dump Rumple out the town line as he was expiring.  And Emma too should have taken a holiday in the Land without Magic until the others found her cure.  

 

I don't understand how Walsh could have turned into a Flying Monkey in NYC since he was actually human so had no innate magic.  Why would Zelena send a couple of vials of Elixir for Broken Hearts to New York with him?  

 

 

 

The Author plot never needed to happen. As contrived as it was, I would have rather seen more QoD.

 

I agree.  Rumple could just have gotten his hand on The Almighty Pen, which was hidden somewhere in Storybrooke.  Regina could have spent all season searching for That Almighty Pen of lore.  

Edited August 11, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

That brings us to why they didn't dump Rumple out the town line as he was expiring. 

 

Who knows!  Because Emma had to become the Dark One?  Also, I guess there's that pesky heart attack in Rumple's case.  Seems like when your heart is a lump of charcoal in the LwM, the end result is heart attack!

 

And Emma too should have taken a holiday in the Land without Magic until the others found her cure.

 

In all fairness, she's gone missing.  But yeah, she should leave Storybrooke.  As weird as this sounds, this is her actual opportunity to do the things she really wants without being burdened by the whole Savior thing.

 

I don't understand how Walsh could have turned into a Flying Monkey in NYC since he was actually human so had no innate magic.

 

I want to say very sarcastically 6 leaf clover.  Robin changed into Tom Ellis' Robin to go to Rumple's castle to get the wand to save Marian and the baby. Besides, the whole plot in NYC, the second it involved magic, it just fell apart, because LwM.  But apparently, Zelena is powerful enough to have her minions cross from one realm to the other just like that

though that might end up being explained away with the magic twister that takes everyone to Camelot

[daxx]

I think anything that is inherently magical like a potion, the pendant, the man turned into a monkey, still works in the land without magic, but no new magic can be summoned.

At least that is how I headcanon it. Although that brings other more recent plottholes to life, Rumples leg collapsing when he crossed the line, the Chernabog disappearing, etc.

[Camera One]

The Monkey thing confused me, once they introduced Lily becoming a dragon.  Would that be considered inherently magical?

 

In all fairness, she's gone missing.  But yeah, she should leave Storybrooke.

 

Yeah, I doubt she will be leaving Storybrooke for half of next season.

 

Also, I guess there's that pesky heart attack in Rumple's case.

 

One of the magic users could have apparated with him to the Town Line before his heart attack finished.  

[Shanna Marie]

I've been skimming through season two, and it really does seem to be going along okay in 2A. That wasn't what I wanted to see at that point in the story when it first aired (I wanted more post-curse fallout), but now that my expectations have been adjusted, I quite enjoy what's there.

 

But then late in "Queen of Hearts" it seems like the writers flat-out lost their damn minds. In that episode (or was it the one right before? I was skimming quickly between them) Emma even mentions that Regina is to blame for the curse and the consequences of it. We see that it's wrong for Regina to be tempted to kill whoever comes through the portal, and it's only Henry who pulls her back. Yeah, there have been a few Regina tears beforehand, but most of those tears in 2A had to do with her realizing how badly she's screwed up. And then we get the infamous "waaaah, why didn't my victims invite me to dinner?" moment, and that's when things go straight to hell. That's when we start getting Evil Queen flashbacks juxtaposed with Poor Woegina in the present. Before, it seemed more like when we saw her being awful in the past, she was also being awful in the present, or else she was getting the consequences of her awfulness (like Zombie Daniel). That's also when Regina doesn't seem to get any blame for her actions while her victims have to apologize to her, and it's when Snow loses a lot of her sass and is made to look evil for ever doing anything against Regina.

 

I really wonder what brought about that rather abrupt change in tone.

[MaiLuna]

 

I really wonder what brought about that rather abrupt change in tone.

I think it was the fact that Regina had actually made the right thing for the first time. She let Emma and Mary Margaret come back. And the writers have this theory that once you do ONE heroic thing (when in reality most of the times it's just stopping what you did wrong) then all of your past crimes must be forgotten and forgiven.

[HoodlumSheep]

this kind of came up in the spoiler discussion thread, but concerning The Crocodile and The Apprentice, are those considered more Hook-centric or Rumple-centric, or a bit of both? We were discussing patterns in the thread, and how Rumple has leaned towards the 4th-ish episode of the season for his (or one of his) centrics.

I consider The Apprentice as split. Rumple got the flashbacks and played a role in the present, but the main focus was on Killian during the present.

Edited August 11, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Shanna Marie]

I think it was the fact that Regina had actually made the right thing for the first time. She let Emma and Mary Margaret come back. And the writers have this theory that once you do ONE heroic thing (when in reality most of the times it's just stopping what you did wrong) then all of your past crimes must be forgotten and forgiven.

That actually makes some sense (grading on a curve for this show). I think they went overboard with it because "yay, you changed your mind about murdering someone, now you're a hero" doesn't work for me, and I really hate the idea that from that point on Regina became a victim and her victims were shown to be awful for being mean to her, but I suppose if you squint and tilt your head, you can imagine that this was a turning point for her. If it had been treated as just a first step and had been developed from there, I'd have liked it a lot better. The issue was that she didn't actually entirely change at that point, given that a few episodes later she was plotting to kill everyone, but the show is written as though she became 100 percent good right then.

 

but concerning The Crocodile and The Apprentice, are those considered more Hook-centric or Rumple-centric, or a bit of both?

I think they're both a split. "The Crocodile" introduced Hook and was part of his origin story, but I got the impression that the show was depicting Rumple as the protagonist there. The present is all Rumple, as Hook only appears in the present in the coda, and the structure of the episode suggests that the episode is meant to be about Rumple and his relationships, with Hook merely being a character in Rumple's past relationship story. "The Apprentice" is likewise about Rumple and the hat, in past and present. Hook is mostly a character in Rumple's story, with the date being a subplot.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ thanks for answering my question, Shanna Marie! I thought The Crocodile and The Apprentice were decently split but leaned in Rumple's favor (which would follow the pattern of Rumple getting 4th episode centrics).

And chiming into the Regina/turn-of-events from 2a to 2b, I agree with you.

[KAOS Agent]

"The Crocodile" was definitely a Rumpel-centic. It was written before Hook was made a regular and when the writers were still planning on him only showing up for a few episodes. Hook was the guest foil in that ep like Anna was the guest foil in "The Apprentice". Another clear sign of a centric is the view point and it's very clearly shown from Rumpel's POV. The same can be said of "The Apprentice" where the past story is Rumpel's and the A-plot in the present ties into the past story.

[LizaD]

Crocodile clear-cut Rump's centric, it's even his moniker as the title. Apprentice I think is more split between Anna, Rump and Hook. You could say the past was Rump's story but it gave us plenty of POV from Anna and Hook in present. We got their explanation and feelings as to what was driving their actions.

The parallel was Anna and Hook facing the same choice of imprisoning the Apprentice or not, and how they came to be making that choice in the first place for the same reason, to which Rump used to his advantage. The plot was Rump's but the character moments were Anna's and Hook's.

As for the Woegina thing, the complete 180 I pin point to that's when Jane E. officially took over as Woegina's writer and Rump was being transitioned over to David Goodman but I don't see it as a clear 2A vs 2B. It started in 2A. Remember the whole Rump, Victor, and Jefferson bullying poor poor innocent Woegina? I'm not blaming all the crap on Jane E. either since the epic Victim tour de force is clearly A&E's plan too. But you got to wonder, they keep trying to give Woegina her "Skin Deep" and it just ain't happening. That's probably why they keep digging in their heels even more and grounding up all the other characters under her heels in the process.

[Shanna Marie]

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more "The Crocodile" is really Rumple's story. The whole episode seems to be about paralleling the relationships in his life -- in the past, his cowardice keeps him from being able to listen to his wife and give her what she needs to be happy, and he loses her, with ultimately tragic results, while in the present, he's in danger of losing Belle because his cowardice won't let him put aside magic, but this time he's able to save Belle and listen to what she needs, so he seems to have learned something. Of course, they totally undermined this in later episodes, since he hasn't learned anything and he's still doing to Belle what he probably would have done to Milah if she'd stuck around and still been there when he had power.

 

The flashbacks were almost entirely from his perspective, aside from the very end when Hook was heading to Neverland. Otherwise, we see Rumple finding his wife in the bar with the pirates, Rumple confronting Hook, Rumple as the Dark One confronting Hook, and then the confrontation. If it had really been Hook's backstory, I think we might have had a glimpse at what Milah's life was like and why she was so eager to leave, we'd have seen Milah and Killian meeting and connecting, and we'd have seen her arrive at the ship and beg him to take her with him. Instead, we just saw Rumple's side of the story.

 

Remember the whole Rump, Victor, and Jefferson bullying poor poor innocent Woegina?

I didn't really see that one as full-on Woegina, since she did end up making the wrong choice herself. She was getting pressured, but it was still a tipping point for her, and then in the present she got the horrible consequences of what she would have achieved if she'd gotten what she wanted in the past. I consider that one before the weird Woegina turning point just because something actually came back to bite her in the ass, which hasn't been allowed to happen much since then.

[LizaD]

 

I didn't really see that one as full-on Woegina

 

But it set up the dangerous precedent of retconning what should've been Woegina's victims getting to call her out turning into a but but Woegina is really THE!VICTIM! because all these people treated her horribly and made her evil so they deserve all they got from her. The visual of 3 men cackling over manipulating the innocent girl couldn't have been any clearer of their intent.

 

These bozos knew how popular Hat Trick-Jefferson was, the response was right up there with Skin Deep, and Jefferson/Emma chemistry was out of this world. They could've done so much with him and his kid, and yet of course like everything on this show, it got sucked into propping the soul sucking victim black hole.  They absolutely wasted SS when they had him but I'm glad he got to move on to bigger and better things.

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm still confused about Jefferson's storyline; it doesn't help that I haven't seen seasons 1 or 2 for quite a while. At the end of hat trick it was implied that he fell inside of his magic hat, but then the next time we see him he's out of it. How did that work? Once the curse was broken did it pull him back into Storybrooke?

And the evil glam rock band flashbacks happened before the events of the Hat Trick flashbacks, right?

And I've always just assumed that after everyone returns to the EF after the 2nd Dark Curse, that he and Grace were not brought back back with the 3rd.

I don't know. And I'm still wondering how Cora managed to kidnap Henry Sr., unless she did that right after she peaced-out in "Mother."

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't know. And I'm still wondering how Cora managed to kidnap Henry Sr., unless she did that right after she peaced-out in "Mother."

I wish we could have gotten that scene in Mother to make it more relevant to the overall story besides the non-shocking barrenness. Why even have Henry Sr. in that episode after the red wedding? In fact, why even have the wedding at all? Seeing when Cora kidnapped him in retaliation would have served the show much better than that reminder of how messed up Regina is.

 

There's moments like that where the writing could fill in its own backstory to help glue everything together. But instead it would rather use screen-time on Regina whining over horse ribbons or Zelena monologuing.

Edited August 12, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I'm still confused about Jefferson's storyline; it doesn't help that I haven't seen seasons 1 or 2 for quite a while. At the end of hat trick it was implied that he fell inside of his magic hat, but then the next time we see him he's out of it. How did that work?

 

I think he supposedly just ran away.  Like many cliffhangers, we weren't supposed to think about it afterwards.  And who knows how his very special telescope could see through walls into Regina's secret hospital dungeon.

 

 

 

And I've always just assumed that after everyone returns to the EF after the 2nd Dark Curse, that he and Grace were not brought back back with the 3rd.

 

When someone doesn't show up, it can go either way.  With someone like Cinderella, it wasn't hard to imagine that she was brought back but was doing whatever in town (until it was confirmed with her appearance at the Baby and Me class).   With someone like Mulan, it's weird that she joined Robin Hood's men but was never mentioned.  Grace was in Storybrooke, so she should have been brought back.  Jefferson wasn't in Storybrooke, but a number of people not in Storybrooke were brought back.  For all we know, Jefferson and Grace took refuge on an island beside Eric and Ariel.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Camera One