A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[FurryFury]

Yeah, with small town-based shows it were always the recurring characters that created the world of the show for me. Remember Gilmore Girls? It was so awesome to see all these supporting characters every time! Once seems like a perfect set-up for this, but they just don't care. Which just should be the motto of this show by this point, I guess.

Edited May 8, 2015 by FurryFury

[Shanna Marie]

It doesn't feel to me as if they test those ideas even among themselves to see if there might be stronger paths to follow.

Speaking as someone who's made a living for a decade writing fantasy (in a different medium) and doing a fair amount of writing teaching, a lot of the writing on this show strikes me as very beginner-level. They make a lot of rookie mistakes, and if they tried to submit something based on most of their plots as a novel, most agents and publishers would laugh at it and send a form rejection. But I think most of the problem isn't so much jumping at the first idea as it is not bothering to develop their ideas. Meanwhile, they've made it more difficult on themselves by not adequately developing their world. I think most of the problem plots could have been done better if they'd really dug into the possibilities before they started breaking the arcs into episodes and writing scripts, if they'd followed the possible ramifications. There's a place for brainstorming, where all ideas can be thrown out there and aren't to be criticized, and there's a place for a serious devil's advocate session. I'd hope that a writing team would do both, that there would be someone asking the hard questions about the plot lines and the characters -- would that person really do that? What would that person do when confronted with that situation? If the character wouldn't do that, what would it take to make him/her do that? How does this fit with the world we've already established? If we make this happen, that opens the door for this other thing to happen.

 

If you do that kind of work, you end up digging into your story with a lot more depth, it will be more consistent, and it will actually be quicker and easier to write. Really, a lot of their problems could have been avoided and they'd have had better stories if they'd even done a "list of twenty" session, in which you make a list of at least 20 things that could happen with a character or concept. It would have been better to start with one concept for the arc and thoroughly dig into it, and then add other concepts to flesh it out. Instead, this arc feels like they had a brainstorming session and they ended up keeping all the ideas that came up, with only the slightest attempt to fit them together into a coherent whole or to develop each of the ideas -- Rumple's dark heart! Turning Emma dark! Snow and Charming the babynappers! Maleficent! Cruella! Ursula! The Author! Robin and Regina! Zelena! The Sorcerer/Apprentice! Operation Mongoose! It really comes across like something from a first-time author who's just so excited to start writing, who can't pick a single idea, and who figures that it will make the story more complex and more interesting if he just throws all of them in at once.

[Curio]

Part of me wonders if the writers were afraid of not getting picked up for a fifth season when they were doing their summer brainstorm session last year, so they decided to throw in every "cool" idea they thought of just in case this would have been the last hurrah.
 

Thinking more about how some arcs have worked better than others, one very good bit of writing advice I've heard is that a story goal needs to be so specific and concrete that you know what it will look like when it happens. This is especially important in movies and TV, where everything has to happen in a scene. This doesn't necessarily mean that you should be able to predict what happens, just that when you know what the characters are trying to do, it should be something clear enough that you'll know for sure when it happens because you'll see it take place.

I meant to respond to this earlier, but I think it's better off in the writers thread.

[retrograde]

From the spoiler thread:

 

Seriously, magic seems like it could replace an iPod and modern medicine with magic. But do they have medieval castles with modern toilets and showers? Can you just magic away poo and dirty hair? I mean, I think it's been proven by Snow's wigs that shampoo doesn't exist in the Enchanted Forest. 

 

I know it's one of those things you have to hand wave, but in 3A, all I could think about was how much they must all smell after days of sleeping in the same clothes, not washing, and not brushing their teeth. Especially Hook, who was in heavy leather the whole time. 

[Camera One]

Maybe Hook went with Charming to a bathing pool in Neverland en route to Dreamshade.  Or maybe Regina gave them the Elixir of Clean Scent. 

 

I just rewatched "Heart of Gold", and there were so many heart-to-heart conversations but since I didn't care about Robin, Rumple or Will too much, I was mostly bored, especially combined with the Zelena monologues which was probably quadruple the length of the longest Emma/parent scene ever on this series.  I usually love talky but I wish the actual main characters of the show could get these long conversations instead.

[KingOfHearts]

Since the finale is a stand-alone two parter movie, it is now fair to judge 4B as a whole. Here's my take on it and how it compares to other season arcs.

 

It starts with the Queens of Darkness. I enjoy the first act of the opener, though I could have done without the Chernabog disaster that hits later. Ursula's apartment and Cruella's snark were welcomed aspects of the premiere. It was fun and enjoyable, sans the awkward Emma/Regina scenes. Darkness on the Edge of Town gave me hope for the rest of the season, but unfortunately it was one of the highlights. It was followed by Unforgiven, which formally introduced the eggnapper plot.

 

We were met with a steep decline. While Poor Unfortunate Soul was tolerable, it was sandwiched between a string of mediocrity. The backstories were awful and pointless, Storybrooke was boring as all get out, and the only source of juicy tension was from Snowing/Emma, but even that got annoying because of its poor execution. The episodes in this stretch were yawn-worthy and unimaginative. It was like watching cardboard.

 

Into the second half, it only gets worse. We open with Heart of Gold, which wasn't a terrible episode per se, but it created the Zarian plot we've all come to hate. Sympathy for the DeVil was another episode that stood by itself, but the action concerning the main plot was craptastic and again, boring. The dramatic tension was stagnant was this point. Lily was the end of a trilogy featuring episodes that totally diverted from what was going on. This particular story was probably my least favorite. I find Lily herself to be in bad taste and introduced way too late in the game for someone who is so integral into Emma's mythology. While Mother was okay and wrapped up several plots, it was still a mess and not noteworthy in any sense of the word.

 

Overall I found this arc boring and mostly unwatchable. There is enough character assassination to put it on par with 2B, but I'd even take it a step further and say that at least 2B was entertaining at times. 4B's main problem is that it devotes its focus on stories no one likes, then proceeds to blandify anything concerning the characters we care about. Maleficent and Regina's friendship should be definitive and engaged in their character development since it's been a part of the show since the second episode ever. Emma's mistrust of her parents should be an issue that delves into the greater problem that has been there for seasons. Belle's loss of Rumple should give us a better understanding of her as a person. Why is there all this story to harvest, yet the writers choose to invest in Zelena and Lily?
 

As for its comparison to 4A... there is none. While I didn't care for 4A besides Frozen, it had consistency going for it. I'd say the same for 3B. The goals weren't changed all that much and they were clear. Save Anna, stop Zelena. This arc started with the Queens of Darkness, and in the end they were pointless. This arc started with Regina finding the Author to get her happy ending, which we found was also pointless. Now we're back to the same exact goal 4x11 had - stop Rumple. It's a total retread! The Charmings are back together and Belle wants her love again. I feel like the main characters went nowhere. We just made a full circle and accomplished nothing. Oh, except Zelena and Lily. Because they're so important.

 

This is my end assessment overall: Bring on Season 5, because it can't get any worse.

Edited May 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

I just rewatched "Heart of Gold", and there were so many heart-to-heart conversations but since I didn't care about Robin, Rumple or Will too much, I was mostly bored, especially combined with the Zelena monologues which was probably quadruple the length of the longest Emma/parent scene ever on this series.  

 

I literally yelled "SHUT UP!!!" at one point during the Zelena/Rumple never-ending hospital scene before I hit the FF button. I could. not. take. her yammering.

 

You are so right that Snowing and Emma haven't had a conversation a quarter that length. That's infuriating.

 

Bring on Season 5, because it can't get any worse.

 

Well, now, that's just daring the TV gods to prove you wrong.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that 4B is BY FAR the worst half in the show's history. It's not even close. I'll take the Home Office over any one of the Author, Zarian and Snowing the egg-baby darkeners every day and twice on Sunday -- let alone all of them at once. 4B was a hot mess of trash.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Souris

[retrograde]

Since the finale is a stand-alone two parter movie, it is now fair to judge 4B as a whole. 

Technically it is, but I'm still going to reserve judgement until I've seen the finale. The 3B finale made me like that season more, and the 4A finale made me like that season a lot less, which may be unfair, but it is what it is. I am interested to know how people end up ranking 4B vs 3B, though.

Edited May 9, 2015 by retrograde

[Camera One]

I think the season finale will allow us to judge once and for all whether Rumple's scheme made any sense at all, or whether A&E will finally define what the Writers' powers/limits are, or if it'll be the same vague fuzzy wuzzy crappy worldbuilding as per usual.

 

Even though the Season 3 finale was good as a stand-alone, it didn't change my feelings about the poorly written 3B arc.   It was just bad on all levels... pacing, suspense (or lackthereof), character growth/development, flashback reveals, (im)balance of characters, etc.  Of course, 4B taught me that there's boring-bad and then there's bad-bad-bad-bad-bad-bad-bad-bad-bad.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Camera One

[Serena]

Of course, on the other hand, the absolute outrage that erupted in this forum when Regina got light magic was good for keeping cardiovascular circulation up. So there were health benefits to 3B! What has 4B done for your health?

Edited May 9, 2015 by Serena

[YaddaYadda]

What has 4B done for your health?

 

4B was very upsetting for my tummy?  I don't know.

 

4B was such a mess.  Once again, what the writers wanted to do was get to their 2 hour finale.  That was their goal and they just fucked up the season to get there.  I think Lily and turning Snowing into whatever it is they turned them into was unnecessary.  I was actually okay with them doing that at first because I thought it would force a....wait for it....conversation between Emma and her parents, bring up all these issues they have been trying to bury, but they didn't, so for me, not only was it a wasted opportunity, but also a complete waste of time.  I'm all for forgiveness, but I'm not all for sweeping hurtful shit under the rug like that and pretend like nothing happened.

 

So there was that.

 

Lily was brought in too late in the game and once again, this whole literally barely 8 hour friendship grates.  I get that the teenagers are angsty and they get attached quickly and then when they're not friends anymore, they cry and take to Facebook to bitch some about it.  And I get that both Emma and Lily had an impact on each other's lives in the short time they've known each other, but it's forced and it's too much and I resent the implication that Emma's life was better because it fucking wasn't.  The difference between Lily and Emma?  Lily apparently never landed in jail or had a baby chained to a bed which she then turned around and gave up because she didn't feel she could take care of it properly and broke her own heart and had to live with not seeing her kid every day and we know that for a fact because it was a big deal at the end of 3A and during 3B with Emma and her coming back to SB.  So while we don't know what happened to Lily (who was clearly busy making a murder board and trying to find where Storybrooke was), I find it cheap of the writers to minimize everything that Emma has gone through because her darkness was put in Lily.  Both Emma and Lily were victims of circumstances and people and they shouldn't minimize one like that.  It sort of reminds me of Snow and Regina in a way and maybe there is some kind of a parallel there.

 

So, I really didn't like that whole Lily premise.

 

And it brings me to my other point, the Queens of Darkness.

 

The Queens of Darkness are like fucking Chihuahuas.  All bark and no bite.  After Cruella's centric, I understand why she was the way she was and I thought what they did with her was actually clever.

 

The thing is the whole Author thing and the quest for him and him giving Regina her happy ending should have stopped right after 4x15 because the whole lesson in that was that Ursula someone who is supposedly a villain (though the only thing we've seen her do was knock Hook unconscious and throw him overboard) got her happy ending.  She didn't just get her voice back, but she was reunited with her estranged father and all of that was because of something Ariel said to Hook.  But then he turns around and babbles on about how since Regina lost her happy ending, then he probably will too.  

 

It's like okay, I get it.  Hook and Regina are basically on the same path.  They both decided that a person is their happy ending and I understand the reason behind it.  They both lost love in the cruelest possible way, they both share the same experience in that.  He's got no one in the world, no blood relatives, no family, I don't think he even likes his crew, so Emma is it for him.  And Regina has Henry, but with Regina as Cora put it, what she has is never enough.

 

And this is what makes this show so unbelievably maddening.  People who share similar experiences like Hook and Regina should be allowed to have a conversation.  Those two haven't spoken since the first episode of season 3.  He calls her Evil Queen and she tells him his hearing is damaged because of canon fire and I'm like "ugh!"

 

Once is good at not doing character driven stories.  No one has sat and discussed anything about this Author, what it means when he is found, why he is missing in the first place, what it means if someone who is rogue like that, who forced the hand of a very powerful man could do if he was released.

 

Emma released the Author from the book even though he's apparently bad news (and I get why she did it, a distressed Emma isn't someone who thinks clearly).  And Snowing found him, but there were more pressing matters like stopping Emma from committing murder even though she's not only the sheriff but also the mother of the kidnapped child (and I get why they went after her) and Hook is sitting right next to the guy and gloating to Rumple about how he miserably failed at turning Emma dark (and I get the impulse) and then Regina equips him but had her epiphany and leave the guy to his own devices with the ink (and she's really happy in that moment that she probably forgot all about that little tidbit).

 

So much UGH!  Facepalm and head shakes from this second half.  It was tedious and badly written and plot plot plot and just...the arc was really badly structured and they tried to shove weirdness down my throat and I'm hoping the last two hours will somewhat redeem this mess.  Last year's finale pretty much did that for me, but I wish I didn't have to count on finales to fall back in love with the show.

[Shanna Marie]

4B has actually made me nostalgic for 2B. Like, I'm considering digging out the DVDs for a marathon this rainy weekend because it might help me love this show again, and I nearly quit in 2B.

[FurryFury]

I've only rewatched, like, 5 or 6 episodes of the show. Red-Handed, Hat Trick ( twice!), The Miller's Daughter (3 times, love it to death), Lost Girl and s3 finale. I usually only rewatch stuff I'm truly obsessed with, or after 5+ years pass. In this case, I doubt I will ever do a big rewatch, this show turned to complete shit, it's too painful.

[KingOfHearts]

I considered watching 4B to prep me for the finale, but I find most of it to be unwatchable. I risk boring myself to death by staring at the screen in disappointment. I'll watch episodes as they premiere because there's the question of what's going to happen next, but I don't find the content itself all that entertaining. I'm mostly here for this board and to see how bad it truly gets. Plus, from reading posts from professional writers like Shanna Marie, I find the show as a textbook example of how not to write stories. In a sense, that's a little fascinating.

 

I will rewatch Sympathy for the DeVil though at some point, if only for the free Twilight Zone episode that comes with it.

Edited May 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I'm only rewatching 4B right now because my friend is back in town and we're catching up (last night, we watched "Heart of Monologues").  So I've pretty much seen each episode in the series twice, with the exception of the pilot, which I've watched four or five times.  But now even THAT could be ruined with the retcon baby stealing stuff.  Even before this finale, I can officially say that the show has jumped the shark for me in 4B, starting with "Unforgiven".  Ignoring characters is one thing but outright destroying them through ret-conning affects rewatch and changes who the characters are in their core.  Now, they're saying that Snow and Charming were basically rehabilitating villains, and I just can't believe it.  Once I can't believe in the plot, it loses me.  Ever since Season 2, this has been a show of moments, where one or two minutes per episode makes the episode worth it.  Now, those moments are just far-in-between.  We basically went an entire half-season without any for Emma/parents, except for the end of "Mother".  Emma/Hook have been luckier, and there have been a few random good ones (Regina/Gepetto and Regina/Blue, were strange highlights in a pretty barren season).  

Edited May 9, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I have been live chatting episodes on twitter or otherwise since the beginning. So, I've always made it a point to rewatch episodes to catch things I missed. I've watched some episodes more than twice, like Snow Falls, Straight on Till Morning, Good Form, the 3B finale, etc..

4B is when I stopped rewatching the episodes, with the exception of Poor Unfortunate Souls. It's not deliberate--I just can't bring myself to bother. This season has been boring, with one too many retcons. I literally am only watching for the CS now, and that was not the case before 4B.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Serena]

I know people were saying that A&E only chose Maleficient because of the success of the movie, and I defended them at the time because Maleficient has been part of the show since the beginning and the actress only recently became available, but the fact that they chose to give her a mother/daughter storyline when the movie was all about that is really quite shameless.

[YaddaYadda]

Maleficent had a kid in the movie?  I had no idea.

 

They absolutely squandered Maleficent's story.  She could have been so much more than this weepy whatever villain.  I can totally accept that she mellowed and was out of the game when we met her in season 1.  But JFC!  Maleficent had a bone to pick with all the main characters on the show and womp womp, nothing!

[KingOfHearts]

 

I know people were saying that A&E only chose Maleficient because of the success of the movie, and I defended them at the time because Maleficient has been part of the show since the beginning and the actress only recently became available, but the fact that they chose to give her a mother/daughter storyline when the movie was all about that is really quite shameless.

Replying in Villains.

[daxx]

Just watched all of season four via the killianHook YouTube channel. Much more palatable and compact given Hook's screen time this season. I am still impressed with the care they have taken with this relationship even if it is small bits few and far between, it is still well done and more enjoyable all smushed together.

After this rewatch I feel better about whatever they have planned for tomorrow. I am confident they won't screw up the relationship, angst, separation probably, not screw it up though.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Maleficent had a kid in the movie?  I had no idea.

She doesn't have a kid, but she raises Aurora like a godparent. She TLK's her from the sleeping curse in the end.

[HoodlumSheep]

I think I'd rank 3b above 4b, even after tomorrow's finale (which I'm sure I'll like, but that's not enough to save the half season for me). I can actually remember a whole lot more from 3b (whether good or bad) than I do from 4b (it's just a blur), and it had a much more focused plot line. And there are a lot more fragments of episodes I'd watch from 3b than 4b.

The only episodes I'd consider rewatching from 4b are Darkness on (at?) the Edge of Town, Poor Unfortunate Soul, Cruella's centric, and probably the finale (we'll see come tomorrow).

For 3b I'd definitely rewatch NY City Serenade, Witch Hunt, The Tower (don't judge, but I have Charming withdrawals), The Jolly Roger, 3b finale. And I could probably stand the other one's too except for Kansas and Bleeding Through.

So in terms of rewatchable episodes, 3b > 4b.

Also, I was sad that the Queens of Darkness were all bark and no bite. None of them were very villainish (at least compare to other villains we've seen) except for Cruella, and she still didn't do much except kidnap Henry in present day.

I don't mind Lily as much as others here, but I do which she wasn't saddled with the whole "Emma turning dark" storyline, and I wish she would have been introduced sooner. I like Mal in present day; she's a burnt out villain who wants to move on.

I'm over Rumple, although I still like Golden Hook scenes, I'm angry about Will, I'm over Regina, "meh" on Snowing (I get more upset with character continuity when it comes to them, because this whole eggnapping thing was never alluded to before, and just makes them the world's greatest hypocrites). Like, I can't look at past scenes anymore where they're being judgey-McJudgersons towards one of the villains, and all I can think of is, "but you eggnapped a baby!"

Belle...existed more in 4b than 3b I think, but I've never been invested in her stoylines.

Definitely do not care for Robin Hood/Zelena/Marian plot.

I actually really like the Author (the sloppy storyline he's in...not so much).

But at the end of the day too much was crammed into 4b along with all the many issues it brought with it.

So I'd rank 3b > 4b.

Edited May 10, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Mari]

I feel like I should post this in a tiny, little font, because I know how much people liked the season 3 finale.

 

I think the season 3 finale was so well-received and well-liked partly because we were so relieved after the debacle that was 3B and the Wicked vs Evil and Regina the Whitelighter, that the episode was decent.

 

I'm not saying the episode was bad, but if had come after a spate of better episodes, we would maybe not be so sure it was wonderful.

 

I think 4B is definitely worse than 3B, simply because it not only didn't make sense a great deal of the time, was infuriating much of the time, and the rest of the time it was boring. 

 

Since the 4B finale is what they were excited about and building towards, it will probably be acres above the rest of 4B, and it will not surprise me if it gets good reviews, but how much of that will be deserved purely on the merits, instead of relief it's not as bad as the Robin episode or the eggnapping episode?

[Camera One]

I feel like I should post this in a tiny, little font, because I know how much people liked the season 3 finale.

 

I think the season 3 finale was so well-received and well-liked partly because we were so relieved after the debacle that was 3B and the Wicked vs Evil and Regina the Whitelighter, that the episode was decent.

 

I'm not saying the episode was bad, but if had come after a spate of better episodes, we would maybe not be so sure it was wonderful.

 

I think the 3B finale was especially great for people who were watching for CS, which is the majority of this forum.  Personally, I just enjoy sci-fi and alt timelines so the time travel aspect was interesting to me conceptually.  However, the 3B finale in some ways cheated by borrowing heavily from "Snow Falls", and in that sense, it was a tad predictable since we've already seen the major tentpoles from Season 1.  I was curious about what I thought of the 3B finale the first time around, so I re-read what I wrote last year, and I was a little surprised that I was generally disappointed by it, though there were parts I liked.  My false remembrance was that I loved the episode.  

 

The same problems last year are still on the show but greatly exacerbated.  Again, they had entire half-season to have Emma work through her conceptions of home, but they wrote her coming to that realization in 1 minute in the finale when she saw Snow burning at the stake, yet that had zero effect on how she viewed Regina.   That's pretty much what we had with Regina's realization at the end of "Mother".

Edited May 10, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I can actually remember a whole lot more from 3b (whether good or bad) than I do from 4b (it's just a blur), and it had a much more focused plot line. And there are a lot more fragments of episodes I'd watch from 3b than 4b.

 

Same here. I think the worst problem with 4B is that it is an incoherent mess. There were too many characters, repetitive dialogues, and very little "light" moments to relieve the heavy handed writing. I still can't figure out what the point of bringing the QoD was, or how Rumple figured out that "dark" savior blood was needed to rewrite the book. Even though Ursula was the most boring of the QoD, at least she brought the Jolly Roger back, and got her Happy Ending without the Author. But they could have made the same point using Mal's reunion with Lily. Cruella was great, but again, they could have connected a regular to the Author's background. 

 

Like, I can't look at past scenes anymore where they're being judgey-McJudgersons towards one of the villains, and all I can think of is, "but you eggnapped a baby!"

 

A&E succeeded in what whey set out to do...

 

Belle...existed more in 4b than 3b I think, but I've never been invested in her stoylines.

 

I think deRavin has spent most of her screentime in Season 4 either sleeping or unconscious. 

 

I think the season 3 finale was so well-received and well-liked partly because we were so relieved after the debacle that was 3B and the Wicked vs Evil and Regina the Whitelighter, that the episode was decent.

 

The fact that they changed the events of Snow Falls was not the best decision, IMO, since it was such an iconic and amazing episode. The Season 3 finale was great as a standalone episode(s), but has many holes in the context of the show. The writers don't seem to consider the bigger picture when writing episodes. That's why we have people behaving OOC, or characters doing abrupt 180 degree turns. 

Edited May 10, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

It was bad enough that all the other characters had to have lobotomies and lose their personalities to support Operation Mongoose, only for Regina to have the two-second "I need to write my own happy ending" epiphany that everyone else should have been telling her about all along. But it's even worse that they were all 100 percent behind it and even thought it was necessary, when it turns out that the Authors aren't supposed to be changing endings, that the current Author was being punished for doing so, and that there are potentially really bad consequences. That's what makes all of it so maddening. Everyone's been "this is the greatest idea ever, we'll help!" only for Regina herself to realize it was unnecessary and for them to learn that it was wrong in the first place. Except none of them have brought up the fact that it was wrong in the first place.

 

Not to mention that it was totally undermined by Ursula's happy ending working without the Author. They even threw in some (probably unintentional) contradictions, like showing Hook desperately working to undo some of the wrong he'd done to others while Regina was focused entirely on getting her own happiness. And the really weird thing is that we knew Regina wouldn't end up getting a rewritten happy ending, or if she did it would have to turn out to be a bad thing that would need to be undone, because she's a character in an ongoing TV series, and the only way to really give her a happy ending would be to write her out or sideline her entirely. A major character in an ongoing series is always going to have drama happening to her, so she couldn't have perfect happiness with everything she wanted and nothing threatening her happiness. So what was the point of an arc in which we already knew it would be impossible for her to achieve her goal?

 

It might have been better if they'd at least used this plot to explore what a happy ending really is. Regina could have tried talking to the people she believes have happy endings to see how they did it or what happened to them afterward. She should have talked to Hook about how Ursula got a happy ending. Anything with more action than studying a book with a magnifying glass.

 

For me what lessens the season 3 finale (which I love) isn't so much what came before as what came afterward. They didn't follow up on any of it. Emma sees the Evil Queen in all her glory, executing (or trying to) her mother, and it changes nothing about how Emma sees Regina. She even begs to be her friend. Seriously? David gets encouraged to believe in love again through the example of and conversation with "Prince Charles," whom he now knows was Hook, talking about his love for Emma and his worry that her parents don't approve of him, and David even said he was sure they would if they knew what he'd done for her. And yet David is still questioning Hook's relationship with Emma and expecting him to go bad. Emma saw the book change based on events, but she buys into Operation Mongoose and getting the ending rewritten (again, right after seeing what Regina was like). We still don't know if anyone else knew that Hook gave up his ship to reach Emma and bring her to Storybrooke. Emma bonded with Marian and made a point of rescuing her, which is now undermined by the fact that Marian was immediately murdered, and we haven't seen Emma mourn or react to that. Even apart from the Frozen ending, that episode set up so much interesting character stuff that they never bothered with at all.

[KAOS Agent]

I can't look at past scenes anymore where they're being judgey-McJudgersons towards one of the villains, and all I can think of is, "but you eggnapped a baby!"

 

I've always thought Mary Margaret was much too judgey and now she's such a hypocrite that it makes watching her acting all superior really annoying. Not that she ever applied her judgement evenly. Regina seems to get a pass on a lot of stuff, but Emma takes a lot of judging from her mother for pretty small stuff in the grand scheme of things. And look at how Snowing continue to judge Hook even while they're babbling on about how they've changed and dedicated their lives to goodness to make up for their past. Apparently, they get to judge others who are trying to do the same thing they did.

 

In Neverland, David judging Hook for his actions and Snow judging Emma for hers made sense because we were supposed to see them as these super good heroes who cannot fathom how anyone would act in such a way no matter what their motive. But now we're supposed to believe that it's totally cool for them to have been judging others who were motivated by the same things as them? Emma was willing to do anything to protect her child (Snowing's excuse for the eggnapping) and Hook was trying to be a better man to make up for his past mistakes, so now I watch and I'm just yelling at them to shut up. This season has utterly destroyed so much about what happened in the previous seasons.

Edited May 10, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Mari]

I've always thought Mary Margaret was much too judgey and now she's such a hypocrite that it makes watching her acting all superior really annoying. Not that she ever applied her judgement evenly.

I've wondered how much of that is Snow, and how much of it is the Mary Margaret personality download.

 

The show will not ever deal with it now--add it to the list of thrown away opportunities--but, their Storybrooke personalities have greatly influenced them.  Snow was Mary Margaret just as long as she was Snow.

 

I always figured David was able to throw off the first season Nolan stench, simply because he was Nolan only a few months, and it didn't have as much time to grind itself into his personality and brain. 

 

Unfortunately, David's done some reNolaning. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

I've wondered how much of that is Snow, and how much of it is the Mary Margaret personality download.

I thought Mary Margaret was a much better person than current Snow. I don't see her personality in her at all. It would be awesome if the show actually took curse downloads into account, but they stopped that after We Are Both.

[Mari]

I thought Mary Margaret was a much better person than current Snow. I don't see her personality in her at all.

Good point.

Maybe it's like mixing the wrong things? Separate they're good, but mixed the personalities can be toxic?

[Camera One]

At this point, it's neither Snow nor Mary Margaret, nor Charming nor David.  It's just whoever and whatever the writers want them to be for plot-purposes, to create situations for other characters to work off of, and to "prove" the point that heroes aren't heroes so villains aren't that bad.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

But now we're supposed to believe that it's totally cool for them to have been judging others who were motivated by the same things as them?

Yeah, it's funny how often David criticizes Hook for helping Emma just because he cares about her. A) Since when is it a bad thing when someone does something to help your daughter? and B) So far, Hook hasn't kidnapped a baby and transferred darkness into it just because he loves Emma.

 

I can kind of see how the eggnapping extravaganza might have left Snow hyper-sensitive about doing things to kids and using them to help your own kid. While it is hypocritical to criticize Emma for doing the same thing, there might also be an element of speaking from experience, sort of "Oh, no, don't do that, trust me. It never goes well." Kind of the way Hook keeps telling Emma not to let herself give in to darkness the way he did. I don't consider him to be hypocritical to warn her against doing what he knows was wrong for him to do, though I guess the difference is that he's cautioning instead of judging and he's admitting that he was wrong rather than just telling her not to do it, while Snow was mostly critical and didn't explain why. Of course, it would have been hard for her to explain why at the time because the writers hadn't yet pulled that out of their asses, which is why a massive retcon is a dumb idea.

[Camera One]

I just chalk that up to David being an overprotective father.  Even if you like the son-in-law (or daughter-in-law for that matter), it's hard to let go of distrust when it comes to your daughter (or son), even if it's illogical. 

[FabulousTater]

I just chalk that up to David being an overprotective father.  Even if you like the son-in-law (or daughter-in-law for that matter), it's hard to let go of distrust when it comes to your daughter (or son), even if it's illogical. 

...And yet they named Emma's brother after Douchefire...ya, so protective that they named their son after the guy that sent their daughter to prison for his crimes and pregnant when she was an underage teenager. Pffft.

 

The writers give Charming those obnoxious and overbearing lines because they think it's cute and don't realize it's really not.

Edited May 10, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Camera One]

The tendency to sentimentalize those who have died is common.

[FabulousTater]

Not to that degree. I'm sorry, but no.

That was the writers blatantly whitewashing and essentially rewriting history and pretending Douchefire's shit didn't stink (and that what they wrote didn't stink).

Edited May 10, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Camera One]

Clearly.  With these writers, they write based on what they want, not based on what's true to the characters.

[KAOS Agent]

Beyond the weirdness of naming the kid after Emma's ex, I just find it confusing whenever anyone references Baby Snowflake as Neal because Neal is dead. Don't ever create two characters with the same name, it's a bad idea.

 

 

I thought Mary Margaret was a much better person than current Snow. I don't see her personality in her at all.

 

I've always like Mary Margaret more than Snow even Bandit!Snow. Part of it I think was because Mary Margaret was more sweetly human and less overly heroically good. I don't think either exists anymore. Snow is now some self-righteous hope-monger who wanders around moralizing and judging others. 

[Camera One]

Beyond the weirdness of naming the kid after Emma's ex, I just find it confusing whenever anyone references Baby Snowflake as Neal because Neal is dead. Don't ever create two characters with the same name, it's a bad idea.

 

That's the main reason why I hated it too.  It's confusing.  I noticed they used Baelfire twice in "Heart of Gold" when referring to the apartment, no doubt to differentiate between the name of the baby and Rumple's son.  

[retrograde]

I know I said I would reserve judgement on 3B vs 4B until after the finale, but I find this conversation too interesting, so:

 

I agree that 3B was more focused and 4B has been a hot mess... but I have found 4B to be a more entertaining hot mess than 3B, which I found incredibly slow and repetitive.

 

I have also vastly preferred Emma in 4B to her in 3B. Sure, the ~*~will Emma go dark?!?1~*~ crap has been tiresome, but she didn't go dark and has had fairly steady character growth over the half-season, where in 3B she was like a broke record repeating "We're going back to New York" stuff until the finale. 

 

On the flip side, I have liked the character of Regina less, and Snowing faaar less in 4B. Hook's storyline (or lack thereof) has been on par -- he is pretty much just there to give Emma someone to talk to, got one quite good centric, and will (probably) finally get an okay storyline in the finale (ETA: On second thought maybe I preferred 3B Hook a little more; he also became a bit of a broken record, but he got more snarky and flirty lines, whereas he has been so serious and soppy this season). Rumple and Belle were pretty irrelevant in both half seasons. But it's Emma that is the character that makes or breaks it for me. 

 

On balance, I think I only like 4B a little more -- and of course I still haven't see the finale -- and I know objectively it may be worse, but I have definitely enjoyed watching it more than I did 3B, so I have to go with my gut.

Edited May 10, 2015 by retrograde

[YaddaYadda]

I always liked season 1 Mary Margaret better than un-cursed Mary Margaret and even Bandit!Snow.  Cursed Mary Margaret was sort of in a similar boat as Emma.  She got up in the morning, taught a bunch of children, came home to an empty place.  This is how they introduced Emma.  She was doing her job, came home to an empty place.  Neither had a family and they had this whole understanding of each other even though Mary Margaret showed a lot of naivete regarding the foster system for instance in the whole Hansel and Gretel episode.  But she was awesome because she was genuine and all heart which this version is not.

 

This Mary Margaret version is who Snow really is imo as sad as it sounds.  This version has the person she loves the most, David.  This version stands in judgement of others (who are not Regina).  This version is so whatever... 

 

Hook's storyline (or lack thereof) has been on par -- he is pretty much just there to give Emma someone to talk to, got one quite good centric, and will (probably) finally get an okay storyline in the finale

This is being stuck between a rock and a hard place imo.  I really want him to have stories but I'm terrified they'll destroy his character.  For someone who hasn't had tons to do and whose centric was all about how vile he was as a pirate (still scratching my head here), they have been very careful with his character and I don't know if it has to do with the fact that he is Emma's s/o.  Even the whole blackmailing thing, he didn't even come from a bad place, he wanted to help and then wanted to get his hand back and it's fucking his and it was taken unceremoniously from him.

 

then I turn around and look at Robin who has had one centric that really wasn't about him, and has barely been on screen and I see how they took an ax to the character and I'm like eh, go ahead and give Hook more screen time because I'm sure he'll still fare better than poor schmuck Robin.

[Serena]

Was his centric about how vile he was as a pirate? It was super mild. When you compare it to Regina, who even in her big "wow finally some self-awareness and growth" episode of 4B (I'm talking about 420) got a flashback where she senselessly murdered some innocents, it's beyond weird. 

[RadioGirl27]

 

Was his centric about how vile he was as a pirate? It was super mild.

If you read the interviews with Colin or, especially, with Adam and Eddy that were released before the episode, that's the impression you get, that Hook was a horrible person and that he did something terrible. But when you actually see the flashback, it wasn't so terrible. I mean, what he did was bad but not as bad as some people was expecting it to be after reading that.

[YaddaYadda]

Was his centric about how vile he was as a pirate? It was super mild.

 

That's how they described it.  Hook when he was a pirate, at his worst and whatever.  And how we have to remember he's a pirate.  It doesn't excuse what he did to Ursula, but I thought all the descriptions were just exaggerated and misleading.  I don't know, I thought him shooting Belle was worst than what he did to Ursula, but they established that Hook will use someone as a tool for revenge since that's twice he's done it now.

 

But yeah, I don't know what I was expecting.  He came from a good place and just fucked it up which seems to be his pattern this season anyway.  I don't even know how he built that whole terrible pirate reputation, dude's code makes him a total softy.  Even on his worst day, he was never as bad as the other villains, it seems.

[Rumsy4]

I always liked season 1 Mary Margaret better than un-cursed Mary Margaret and even Bandit!Snow.

 

Taking my response to the Snow thread. 

Edited May 10, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

Hook when he was a pirate, at his worst and whatever.  And how we have to remember he's a pirate.  It doesn't excuse what he did to Ursula, but I thought all the descriptions were just exaggerated and misleading.  I don't know, I thought him shooting Belle was worst than what he did to Ursula, but they established that Hook will use someone as a tool for revenge since that's twice he's done it now.

I think what made what he did to Ursula possibly worse was that it wasn't just violence and hurting her, but also betraying her trust. Belle had no reason to trust him. He never even pretended to be her friend. He made no promises to her. She knew he was an enemy. So while he hurt her, he didn't betray her. He befriended Ursula, told her he would help her, promised her he wouldn't take her voice, no matter what her father did. And then he did it. He not only took something valuable to her, he destroyed her faith in people. He wounded Belle's body, but he wounded Ursula's soul and helped send her life down a very different path. What he did to Belle was barely a blip in her life (especially since she seems to have had zero reaction to the way she acted as Lacey). He changed Ursula's life for the worse.

[Camera One]

This is being stuck between a rock and a hard place imo.  I really want him to have stories but I'm terrified they'll destroy his character.  For someone who hasn't had tons to do and whose centric was all about how vile he was as a pirate (still scratching my head here), they have been very careful with his character and I don't know if it has to do with the fact that he is Emma's s/o.  

 

Definitely.  Wishing for more screentime is a double-edged sword on this show.  Look at Charming.  He finally got his centric and it was insulting as hell, and then they gave him and Snow a key subplot in 4B which destroyed their integrity and essence.  

 

It is strange how careful they are with Hook.  He has been one of the luckier characters so far, despite given two almost identical subplots being blackmailed by a villain (3B and 4A).  He and Emma both have been allowed deeper meaningful conversations, which has not be afforded to Emma and her parents.  The only other pairing that gets that are Emma and Regina, and Rumple and Sleeping Belle (which makes it a non-conversation).  Maybe A&E have a soft spot for Hook?  What he did to Ursula was bad, but the entire episode was framed around his regret, and his negative act was almost cancelled out by his genuine attempts to help Ursula beforehand.  His past crimes with Ursula is not being dwelled on and he was allowed to make up for it and earn forgiveness, unlike the never-ending Baby Napping drag-out.  Even Regina, who is A&E's favorite, was shown murdering someone in the same episode where she got her big realization that she was responsible for her happy ending.  Maybe A&E just enjoys Evil Regina more than Evil Hook, since she's so much more ostentatious.  

 

A&E finds it easier to write for characters on a redemptive path, and all the Hook centrics so far have been about that.  Once Hook turns all good, A&E won't know what to do with him, and that's when there's a danger that they will write him betraying Emma.

[Shanna Marie]

A&E finds it easier to write for characters on a redemptive path

I'm not sure that's entirely true, given how badly Regina's redemptive (so-called) arc has been handled and Rumple's "I'm redeemed -- ha, just kidding!" plots.

 

I keep feeling like it comes down to the fact that there are characters they love like they're real people vs. characters they love writing for, and then characters who need to be there to keep the show going, so they have to write for them, but they don't much care.

 

They clearly love Regina, but their writing for her is terrible. She's all over the map and constantly flip-flopping. They like her to be a victim and suffer, but then they can't make her suffer too much, so they provide easy fixes for her suffering. They love the Evil Queen craziness so much that it ruins attempts to redeem her in the present, and even in the present they can't pull back from the bitchiness enough to make the character fit what they're writing around her. It's like they think they're Isaac and what they write about this person they love is actually happening to a real person, so they keep giving her unearned stuff.

 

But I think they enjoy writing for Hook (at least, when they bother remembering he's in an episode). They give him interesting stuff to do, give him great interactions with other characters, and let him be flawed while still being basically good.

 

Or there's that writing elves theory I have, and none of the staff writers are the ones writing the Hook scenes.

 

One more thought about the Ursula incident -- the worst we've really seen Hook was just before the curse, when he broke into Regina's castle, killed a guard, attacked Belle, ended up working for Regina to kill Cora, then flipped sides to work for Cora. That came after the Ursula incident, so did that event sent both of them down a dark path? Was that the line that once he crossed it, it was harder to get back? Up to that point, yeah, he was a pirate, which isn't exactly a humanitarian occupation, and he wanted revenge, and he let his temper get the best of him, but he seems to have been a decent guy at heart. Did breaking his word to Ursula and breaking his personal code in doing so turn him into the real villain we saw after that?

[Camera One]

I'm not sure that's entirely true, given how badly Regina's redemptive (so-called) arc has been handled and Rumple's "I'm redeemed -- ha, just kidding!" plots.

 

I think that's because Regina and Rumple had to have a redemptive arc dragged out for four seasons, plus they have way more screentime.  Thus the flip-flopping. 

 

Based on what we have seen of Hook, I think they do know how to write a true redemption on a smaller scale.  In individual episodes, they like to write Regina or Rumple trying to do better, and sometimes those work in microcosm.  

 

I agree that, arc-wise, they totally fail.

[Rumsy4]

A&E finds it easier to write for characters on a redemptive path, and all the Hook centrics so far have been about that. Once Hook turns all good, A&E won't know what to do with him, and that's when there's a danger that they will write him betraying Emma.

Goodness, this seems like a very plausible direction they might take with his character. He was already relegated to being part-furniture this half-season like the Charmings. Regina on the path to redemption is boring Woegina. That's why A&E have her flip flopping even now. This is one of the reasons why I hope OUAT won't have too many seasons left. Less time left to butcher their characters. lol