A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[FabulousTater]

I thought about posting this in the Meet Market thread, but it's show related so....

Does anyone else feel like the show just died last night? I feel like I'm in mourning today or something. Not like a person died or anything so tragic (I'm not shedding tears or anything like that), but still, it's like a resigned feeling. A certainty that the show I loved is never, ever, ever coming back along with the knowledge that in wiser hands the show should've been still going strong. The writers finally managed to smother to death what was once a really cool show with fantastic characters and now it's just dead to me. I usually get some fun from doing some Monday Morning quarterbacking here, but I can't even find the will to do that anymore because there's no point. It's like doing an autopsy on a zombie. What's the point? It's already dead. Like, R.I.P already, would ya....Go into the light or something, show. You're done.

[Shanna Marie]

Does anyone else feel like the show just died last night?

Yep. I just feel sad and drained, and I had a hard time getting to sleep because I was just so angry, depressed and disappointed. When a tweet from Adam came across my feed (retweeted from someone else) asking what we thought of the episode, I actually fired back something about how twisted their morality is.

 

There have been shark-jumping moments in the past, but this one may be it. It's not so much what actually happened on the show but rather the way they're talking about it and the way it's being framed for future episodes. It really reminds me of Cora's death, when I was all "you go, girl!" and then the show acted like it was the worst thing ever.

 

I guess I've just realized that I'm not only not on the same page with their vision, I'm in a different book, in a different language, in a different format, in a different library.

[FabulousTater]

Yep. I just feel sad and drained, and I had a hard time getting to sleep because I was just so angry, depressed and disappointed. When a tweet from Adam came across my feed (retweeted from someone else) asking what we thought of the episode, I actually fired back something about how twisted their morality is.

There have been shark-jumping moments in the past, but this one may be it. It's not so much what actually happened on the show but rather the way they're talking about it and the way it's being framed for future episodes. It really reminds me of Cora's death, when I was all "you go, girl!" and then the show acted like it was the worst thing ever.

I guess I've just realized that I'm not only not on the same page with their vision, I'm in a different book, in a different language, in a different format, in a different library.

And that's on a different planet, in a different galaxy, in another universe.

Yep, that's the feeling exactly. :-(

Edited April 20, 2015 by FabulousTater

[FurryFury]

I've only forced myself to watch it to see Cruella's backstory because I somewhat liked her and the actress has style. But otherwise, 4B turned out to be even worse than I've expected. I'll probably check out the finale though, but until that (or after that), no idea.

[Shanna Marie]

I have to say that if it weren't for this forum, I think I'd be done. As it is, I enjoy the discussion enough to want to stay on top of it enough to discuss. Otherwise, they've ruined Snow and David, who were among my favorites. I liked them as individuals and liked them as a couple. There were issues with Emma that I wanted to see addressed, and while Emma has plenty of reason to be angry at her parents, this development just feels artificial. It's not addressing the issues that already existed. And no, this doesn't make me think Regina is any better in comparison.

 

As much as I love Emma, I don't want to see her dragged into darkness for something that was just pure Mama Bear instinct. Heck, I don't even have kids and if I saw a random child in the situation Henry was in, I'd have done what she did. And if the show is going to go on a tear of condemning her for this, I just can't.

 

I like Hook, and I like Hook and Emma as a couple, but I think there was more combined footage of cell phone video of Colin playing guitar in a pub this week than there was screen time of Hook on the show. They've forgotten the intriguing friendship that had been developing between Hook and Belle, seemingly forgot that the Apprentice is still in the hat, forgot that Hook is still guilt-stricken about his role in that and wanting to set it right. Or did they turn all that over to the fairies offscreen?

 

And what about August? Is he still August or has he reverted to child Pinocchio?

 

It's like they're systematically removing everything I care about from this show.

[FurryFury]

I've just finished binging Glee, and Once can probably give it a run for its money as the show with the worst season decay. I probably would have quit Glee (scratch it, I would have surely quit Glee) if I watched in on a weekly basis. But with Once, there's this forum (snarking is fun!) and the fact that I still kinda like Emma. 

Edited April 20, 2015 by FurryFury

[Souris]

I thought about posting this in the Meet Market thread, but it's show related so....

Does anyone else feel like the show just died last night? I feel like I'm in mourning today or something. Not like a person died or anything so tragic (I'm not shedding tears or anything like that), but still, it's like a resigned feeling. A certainty that the show I loved is never, ever, ever coming back along with the knowledge that in wiser hands the show should've been still going strong. The writers finally managed to smother to death what was once a really cool show with fantastic characters and now it's just dead to me. I usually get some fun from doing some Monday Morning quarterbacking here, but I can't even find the will to do that anymore because there's no point. It's like doing an autopsy on a zombie. What's the point? It's already dead. Like, R.I.P already, would ya....Go into the light or something, show. You're done.

 

I think I had that feeling after 4x11. I've tried to pretend it's not dead, only resting or in a coma or something, but yeah, it's dead. Last night made that abundantly clear. There's no coming back from the destruction they've visited upon the show and its characters.

 

I have to say that if it weren't for this forum, I think I'd be done. As it is, I enjoy the discussion enough to want to stay on top of it enough to discuss. Otherwise, they've ruined Snow and David, who were among my favorites. I liked them as individuals and liked them as a couple. There were issues with Emma that I wanted to see addressed, and while Emma has plenty of reason to be angry at her parents, this development just feels artificial. It's not addressing the issues that already existed. And no, this doesn't make me think Regina is any better in comparison….

 

It's like they're systematically removing everything I care about from this show.

 

Absolutely! Kvetching with you fine people here has kept me tethered to the show. I'd miss y'all far more than the show at this point if I gave it all up! I doubt I'll watch much, if any, of the show for the rest of the season, but I still want to keep up enough to continue snarking and talking with y'all.

 

But, yeah, they've systematically ruined everything I loved about the show and keep doubling down on everything I hate. They really are in some other universe when it comes to storytelling, morality and what's entertaining. Hook and Emma were the only things keeping me watching, but it's clear the show doesn't care about their relationship anymore, so they've squandered all that wonderful depth and magic it used to have.

[YaddaYadda]

I realized after last night that there are a few things I will not accept.  I know I will be sticking with the show until the very bitter end.  It's sad, but true.  The one thing that I cannot accept is Rumple being an integrated part of Storybrooke society, Rumple being delivered from his curse, Rumple getting his happy ending.  Him and his shriveled up piece of coal he calls a heart can die.  

 

I hated the last 5 minutes.  I was expecting it, I was anticipating it, but I really hated the message behind it.  So I worry about what's left to the season.  There's a total of 4 hours left to this show and the excitement level has plummeted down to my feet.  I am super confused about everything that's going on with the show.  I am confused about the change in message, I am confused about how these writers keep forgetting stuff that they've written or just choose to ignore it.

 

The show really lost its way.  I hope they figure out their way out of this merdier and quickly.  I'd like to at least enjoy some of season 5.  This half is shaping up to be as bad as 2B.

[KAOS Agent]

 

The one thing that I cannot accept is Rumple being an integrated part of Storybrooke society, Rumple being delivered from his curse, Rumple getting his happy ending.  Him and his shriveled up piece of coal he calls a heart can die.

 

I don't even get what Rumpel is after. His heart is turning so dark, he'll lose his inability to love, so he needs to destroy everyone else in order to be able to retain his small ability to love? I don't even get how this works. It makes no sense. Rumpel just needs to die at this point. I love scheming Rumpel, but they've put him at such a level of depravity and horror that there's just no way to make him palatable even as just a grey character. 

[YaddaYadda]

I think Rumple is done.  I think they've killed any kind of humanity he had left in the finale last year.  Isn't a TLK still valid in his case?  He stopped Belle from breaking his curse once.  But he probably still wants to retain his ability to love (or whatever BS) and have power and he painted a red target on Emma's back by using his grandson.  I'm sure Neal is proud of dear old dad.  He should come back and haunt him.

 

It's crazy how far removed we are from last year's season finale, isn't it?

[ParadoxLost]

I don't even get what Rumpel is after. His heart is turning so dark, he'll lose his inability to love, so he needs to destroy everyone else in order to be able to retain his small ability to love? I don't even get how this works. It makes no sense. Rumpel just needs to die at this point. I love scheming Rumpel, but they've put him at such a level of depravity and horror that there's just no way to make him palatable even as just a grey character. 

 

I think that him trying to save his ability to love is garbage.  He was trying to manipulate Belle with that because that is just the kind of line she would fall for if Regina weren't controlling her.  This is all about Rumpel's fear of death.  He is at the point where if someone or something interferes with his magic to stave off the darkness in his heart then he drops dead.  I wouldn't be surprised if he drops dead if all the red in his heart is gone.  Or maybe he's some slavering monster but all his intellect or personality is gone.  That is what Rumpel is trying to avoid.  Nothing will convince me his motives are to save his ability to love.  Stop doing evil and halt the progression then.

 

 

I think Rumple is done.  I think they've killed any kind of humanity he had left in the finale last year.

 

With the way this show works, I think they'll find some 'cure' that makes his heart less black and decide that negates the actions that darkened it in the first place.

[OnceUponAJen]

With the way this show works, I think they'll find some 'cure' that makes his heart less black and decide that negates the actions that darkened it in the first place.

If he and Belle are true loves, then couldn't she give him half of her heart? I think Snowing established that this works, right?

[ParadoxLost]

If he and Belle are true loves, then couldn't she give him half of her heart? I think Snowing established that this works, right?

 

But Snowing seems to have proved that you also share a brain.  I'm pretty sure Rumpel would rather be dead than be that gullible.

[Writing Wrongs]

The whole realm/time thing is confusing. In Season 1:

Emma: Here’s the thing, Jefferson – this is it. This is the real world.

Jefferson: A real world. How arrogant are you to think yours is the only one? There are infinite more. You have to open your mind. They touch one another, pressing up in a long line of lands. Each just as real as the last. All have their own rules. Some have magic, some don’t. And some need magic. Like this one.

 compared to now:

 

Isaac: I travel across realms.

Cruella: What?

Isaac: Realms of storytelling. This place right here is one of them. It exists out of time. Tell me, what year is it?

Cruella: Oh, um, who bothers with such trivial things?

Isaac: Exactly. We're not in a time. We're in a realm of story. There are many. Some beautiful, some horrific and some just plain magical.

 

Is this the same thing or have they changed the premise? It reminds me of the Land of Stories series by Chris Colfer or The Sisters Grimm by Michael Buckley. (Yeah, I read a lot of juvenile fiction)

 

[KAOS Agent]

I think that something else that's disturbing about the "story realms" is that they are implying that the authors of these actual stories are only recorders and aren't truly the creators of these stories. So Mary Shelley, L Frank Baum and JM Barrie are having all of their ownership of their creativity removed. I find myself rather offended on their behalf. 

[ParadoxLost]

I think that something else that's disturbing about the "story realms" is that they are implying that the authors of these actual stories are only recorders and aren't truly the creators of these stories. So Mary Shelley, L Frank Baum and JM Barrie are having all of their ownership of their creativity removed. I find myself rather offended on their behalf. 

 

I'm more annoyed that the Author apparently interviews the subjects and is easily duped.  No wonder JM Barie got Peter Pan wrong.

 

I think the introduction of "story realms" became necessary because they needed it to be timeless rather than connected worlds.  You can make Neverland timeless, but if your character ages then that doesn't really work. So now we have story realms that are timeless because they are from certain eras of the land without magic..  Timeless only becomes necessary because Cruella started the Author's interference and they want to leave it open ended on how much of Regina's actions the Author manipulated.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I'm more annoyed that the Author apparently interviews the subjects and is easily duped.  No wonder JM Barie got Peter Pan wrong.

 

JM Barrie considered Peter Pan to be a demon, it was that "guy named Walt" that got it all wrong.

Edited April 21, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Shanna Marie]

Is Agrabah in the Fairytale land with the Enchanted Forest and Arendelle or is it a separate world?

I think it's in the same world as the Enchanted Forest and Arendelle. In "Ariel," Eric was about to leave on an expedition to Agrabah when he met Ariel, and that was why it was so tragic when she reverted to mermaid form and lost her voice. As far as I can tell, Oz, Neverland, Wonderland, the World Without Color, Alice's World of Victorian England, and I guess now the World of 1920s England are all different worlds, requiring some kind of portal or other magic for transport. The Enchanted Forest, Arendelle, Sherwood Forest, and Agrabah are all in the same world and can be traveled to physically. There also seems to be a Not!France (where everyone has an Australian accent) and a Not!China. Sherwood Forest seems to be adjacent to The Enchanted Forest (or maybe is a subset of it?). There's a good chance that Camelot is also in that world, since Lancelot made it to the Enchanted Forest and Rumple apparently visited it.

 

I'm curious where Not!Scotland is supposed to be, since that seems to be where Rumple originally came from. And then there's Not!Almost, but not quite, entirely not Irish land, home country of Hook and Robin. Otherwise, it seems odd that random people within a society just happen to speak entirely differently from everyone else.

[Camera One]

So why did Rumple need to pick up Cruella at all, back in the 4B premiere?  If the only purpose of Ursula and Cruella was to get Rumple into town, couldn't Ursula have managed that on her own?  He didn't actually need both Ursula or Cruella to resurrect Maleficent either.  Unless there's going to be a big reveal we don't know about yet, to explain the reasoning behind Rumple's plans... 

Edited April 21, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

He needs the ink that's in Cruella's hair? I think that's why he got her.

Edited April 21, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

But if he didn't know that Cruella and the Author knew each other until this episode, then he wouldn't have known he spilled ink on her hair?  

Edited April 21, 2015 by Camera One

[Zuleikha]

He needs the ink that's in Cruella's hair?

But then why did he get Ursula? What did he need Ursula for? 

[Dianthus]

You must mean season 6 Buffy, because comparing her to Bella is otherwise really insulting to her character (no opinion on Katniss).

To be fair, there was plenty of angst in s3 as well. I don't think it was meant to be a direct comparison, tho'. I actually read a pretty funny little fanfic (wish I could remember the details) that featured Buffy, Bella and Sooki on a chat show, each talking about the vamp in her life (Spike, in Buffy's case). The sequel (the boys' turn) was a bit of a disappointment, but maybe I just expected too much of it.

[KingOfHearts]

Is it me or is the main cast more like the supporting cast now?
 

4A was focused on the Frozen characters and 4B is focused on whatever random iconic figure they can come up with. Maybe it's just been the last few episodes, since last week was Zelena and Robin, and this week was Cruella. All we really see of the mains are reactions and motivations that only suit the plot. Even the Evil Snowing debacle seems more about plot than Snow and Charming themselves. Whenever we see Team Hero, they're always just stressed over the latest problem. We don't explore how they actually feel or what's going on in their heads. Oddly enough, Regina is in the same boat this season.

 

With each episode centering around an entire arc worth of story, even the audience is tending to be winded by it all. It's like watching a whole other show each week. In 4B... First it was about the Queens and Rumple, then it was about Snowing's secret, then Regina's double-agenting, then Ursula, then back to Snowing, then Zelena, then Cruella and

now Lily

. I realize in S1 there were plenty of one-offs and centrics, but there were enough main character moments to keep it glued together. It was flowing as opposed to the detached mess we have now.

 

The main characters just don't seem as important any more.

Edited April 21, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

That's the main criticism I've seen about the show lately. This last episode got some positive response for the Cruella stuff, but even some of the most positive sources out there were complaining about the lack of main characters' story. Worse news for the showrunners is that it's coming from all sections of the fandom. Nobody seems particularly pleased about their favorite characters except possibly Outlaw Queen fans and that hardly has a devoted following. It was also noted elsewhere that none of the main characters is happy at the moment. Not one. No one has even really smiled in the last few episodes. That's just depressing.

[Camera One]

The only "win" the heroes have had was the Hook episode with Ursula.  4B feels like everything but the kitchen sink, with zero cohesion.  3B was boring as hell but at least it was basically a unified whole Zelena 24/7 and her goal was easy to understand.  It is now almost the end of 4B, and it's still unclear what the point of Rumple's plan is.  The nebulous Rogue Author stuff is weakly and unconvincingly linked to the Maleficent/Egg Baby plot.  As filler, the writers threw in Ursula and Cruella, who I maintain were included solely for the twist we got this past week, and to take up 2 weeks of flashbacks.   And that leaves the completely unrelated side-plot of Zelena's grand plan of impersonating Marion.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Camera One

[Zuleikha]

At least based on what I saw last week, Outlaw Queen fans were unhappy because of Robin pledging his love to Marian and deleting Regina from his phone. I think literally every part of this divided fandom is currently united in unhappiness with how our characters and ships are being handled on the show. 

 

It really seemed like the show had learned from 2B about how important it was to write a contained, focused story but 4B seems exactly like 2B in term of problems, except that 2B had the power episodes of Manhattan and The Miller's Daughter. 

[KingOfHearts]

It really seemed like the show had learned from 2B about how important it was to write a contained, focused story but 4B seems exactly like 2B in term of problems, except that 2B had the power episodes of Manhattan and The Miller's Daughter.

Compared to 4B, 2B was still main character focused. Most of the flashbacks did not deal with side characters or villains. I don't give it many things, but I'll give it that.

Once gets its loyal viewership from the love of the characters, in my opinion. People watch for the ones they care about. Since every single one has gotten sidelined, I can see why ratings are down. Why keep watching when it's about characters you'll never see again?

Edited April 21, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

As filler, the writers threw in Ursula and Cruella, who I maintain were included solely for the twist we got this past week, and to take up 2 weeks of flashbacks.

I think the only reason for Ursula was to get the Jolly Roger back to Storybrooke. As for Cruella, they apparently used it to give the Author the impetus to start changing stuff. It's all poorly put together.

[crystalwearer]

The whole realm/time thing is confusing. In Season 1:

 compared to now:

 

Is this the same thing or have they changed the premise [from Jefferson to Isaac]?

Jefferson and Isaac might just have different perspective. Jefferson's a traveler who knows there are other realms but, being a native Enchanted Forester, has no reason to recognize another realm as "real". Isaac has a broader perspective and recognizes the non-LwM realms as, effectively, child-realms of the LwM.

 

I think that something else that's disturbing about the "story realms" is that they are implying that the authors of these actual stories are only recorders and aren't truly the creators of these stories. So Mary Shelley, L Frank Baum and JM Barrie are having all of their ownership of their creativity removed. I find myself rather offended on their behalf.

To me this actually enhances the work of the various authors: Carroll didn't just create a story about Alice's adventures, he created 2 entire realms populated with distinct societies (one of which was based on his own). The "timeless" quality isn't so much about time not moving forward as about society not moving forward ...

... which means that these story realms are all basically S1 Storybrook with different architectural styles. Which I guess makes Regina her own author.

[Shanna Marie]

Which I guess makes Regina her own author.

And that brings us right back to the fact that she's responsible for her own happy ending.

 

As a mental exercise, I sometimes try to "fix" the various arcs, and most of the time the problem is more in the execution than in the concept, so it doesn't take much to tweak it so that we end up in more or less the same place but in a way that makes a lot more sense. For instance, in 2B, if the other characters had a more realistic reaction to Regina and didn't jump straight to accepting her, and then if she'd actually had some kind of epiphany about how awful Cora was when she saw her kill Johanna, and then if she was as much "oh hell no!" about Cora becoming the Dark One as everyone else was and maybe even participated in killing Cora, it would have fixed a lot of things about her character, Snow, and the wonky morality in this show. Cora may have talked her into getting out the failsafe and burning the beans, so we'd still have the same setup for the end of the season. Meanwhile, if Belle had needed a time out from Rumple after learning about Milah from Hook, then we wouldn't have needed the Lacey arc and Belle would have looked less like an enabler, plus there might have been time then for Rumple and Neal to interact at least a little. We could still have ended up in the same place with Belle if she decided that Rumple proved himself by sacrificing himself to kill Pan, and that was the reason she married him when he was revived.

 

3A doesn't need that much work -- just mostly fix the flashbacks to get rid of everything about Regina and Snow (with the bonus of losing all the pixie dust and Robin Hood nonsense) and instead focus on the various "lost children" in the cast. They had a good potential setup for something thematic with the arc, since they were in Neverland and so many of the characters would have counted as lost boys/girls at some point in their lives. There's Emma, big-time. There's Neal, who was let go by his father and then who became a literal Lost Boy in Neverland. There was Rumple, abandoned for Neverland, And there was Hook, also abandoned as a child and then losing his brother, which led to him losing his way. Neal found his way out in the past, Hook was in the process of finding his way in the present, Rumple was facing his past, and Emma was learning that she'd never really been as lost as she thought. And then Henry was in danger of being lost, but he had this whole big family determined not to let that happen.

 

3B is mostly a structural issue. Actually use the Missing Year and make them make some kind of progress then instead of sitting around until they cast the curse. Alter the reason for casting the curse, so that it's not just because they need Emma to save them all (and then don't) but because they've learned Emma is in danger from one of Zelena's minions and without her memories, she won't be able to properly protect herself because she won't know what's going on. That way we can still make it wicked vs. evil without looking like Emma is set up to be savior, only to have it switched at the last second. If we've already made those 2B adjustments, then it's less jarring that Regina can suddenly do light magic. Otherwise, it would mostly require a tonal shift in places. Do something else with the Rapunzel episode slot instead of repeating the exact same thing in the flashback and the present. Less of the victimizing Cora/demonizing the White family in "Bleeding Through." And let the good guys make some progress toward learning or doing something along the way.

 

4A gets a little harder to do without a complete rewrite. The Ingrid/Frozen side of the story works pretty well. I'd just make the Shattered Sight spell mean something and come up with a better purpose for Anna's tour of the Enchanted Forest. Couldn't she and David just have teamed up and bonded without her having to teach him A Valuable Lesson? The concept for the Rumple part of the plot works, but the pacing and structure are terrible. There's so much that happens that turns out to have been pointless, like they were just spinning their wheels and killing time until it came to the finale, and there was little payoff of Hook's side of that story. And then there's Operation Mongoose. The only way to fix that would be to have someone say, "You're responsible for your own happy ending," the moment Regina brought it up or to have it never brought up because of the no pixie dust fix from earlier. If you remove the poor, sad Regina plot line from that arc and find something else for her to do, that frees up time to deal with the other plots. She was (or should have been) the central figure in 3B, so it wouldn't have hurt for her to step back to a supporting role for an arc.

 

I can't think of a way to fix 4B short of deleting the whole thing, going back to the pixie dust and everything stemming from it, and starting over. The Author concept is fairly stupid, through and through. The characters are all being forced to act wildly out of character to make things work. There's so much that turns out to be pointless and meaningless. Maleficent could have been interesting, but of all things to do with her, why this baby stuff (I mean, other than showing that the heroes are just as bad as the villains)? Ursula seemed to be there just for promo purposes because she made no real difference to the story. I can't find a thread to pick up and follow to dig anything worth salvaging out of this arc, other than the concept of a villain making amends for his past from the Hook and Ursula episode, and even that might have worked better if it had involved more of an arc, so that we saw more of what became of Ursula between that incident and now.

[Mathius]

3A doesn't need that much work -- just mostly fix the flashbacks to get rid of everything about Regina and Snow (with the bonus of losing all the pixie dust and Robin Hood nonsense)

Agreed, the three big weaknesses of the otherwise stellar 3A to me were the flashbacks, the constant McGuffins, and the ill-advised creative choice to keep Neverland in perpetual night which became monotonous after a few episodes.

Though I wouldn't say get ride of all the Regina and Snow stuff...I'd keep the "Ariel" flashback.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Though I wouldn't say get ride of all the Regina and Snow stuff...I'd keep the "Ariel" flashback.

Lost Girl and The New Neverland flashbacks can both take a hike. I'm fine with Ariel. If it were the only Snow vs. Regina flashback of the arc, it would have been less overdone.

Edited April 21, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[FurryFury]

I was fine with both Lost Girl and Ariel. However, I don't mind the Neverland darkness, but then I also don't mind the darkly lit fights in Daredevil this season, and lots of complaints were made about that.

Edited April 21, 2015 by FurryFury

[Shanna Marie]

The "Ariel" flashback can stay. I saw that as more about Ariel herself and what Regina did to her than about the usual Snow vs. Regina stuff, and we do need to understand how Ariel comes into the picture.

 

But we didn't need Regina and Tink -- I'd have been more interested in seeing Hook, Bae, Pan and Tink in the past -- and we really, really didn't need the Medusa flashback. The Excalibur thing was pointless, too, since we already know that they did fight the war -- and win it -- so it didn't reveal anything.

 

I think the biggest problem with 3A was that they used the flashbacks thematically per episode rather than as an actual storytelling tool. Instead of giving us pertinent info on something relevant to the story, they had a bad tendency to go with the "this is the episode about believing in yourself, so here's a flashback about a character learning to believe in herself" approach, which was less effective when the flashback had absolutely nothing otherwise to do with the story. With the best use of flashbacks, if you removed the flashback, the rest of the episode wouldn't make much sense. With the thematic flashbacks, you can remove them without changing a thing in the present.

[FabulousTater]

I can't think of a way to fix 4B short of deleting the whole thing, going back to the pixie dust and everything stemming from it, and starting over. The Author concept is fairly stupid, through and through. The characters are all being forced to act wildly out of character to make things work. There's so much that turns out to be pointless and meaningless. Maleficent could have been interesting, but of all things to do with her, why this baby stuff (I mean, other than showing that the heroes are just as bad as the villains)? Ursula seemed to be there just for promo purposes because she made no real difference to the story. I can't find a thread to pick up and follow to dig anything worth salvaging out of this arc, other than the concept of a villain making amends for his past from the Hook and Ursula episode, and even that might have worked better if it had involved more of an arc, so that we saw more of what became of Ursula between that incident and now.

Yep. 4B so far makes me look upon 2B fondly with warm and fuzzy feelings. 4B is so bad that I legit long for something at least as "good" as 2B, and I hated 2B and thought it was the worst of all the show's half season arcs. While the Plot!Plot!Plot! in 2B was relentless and shoved aside many of the main characters in favor of Plot!Plot!Plot!, at least the plot itself made some sort of sense and was pretty straightforward. What didn't make sense in 2B were a lot of the characters' reactions to what was happening to them. But in 4B not only are a lot of the characters acting OOC, none of the plots make a lick of sense! And lemme tell ya, I've done my fair share of fanwanking to try and get things to make sense, but it's just not happening. I think 4B is totally unsalvageable.

Edited April 21, 2015 by FabulousTater

[HoodlumSheep]

I'll agree with those who said the weaker point of 3a were the flashbacks. The Snow vs. Regina flashbacks felt like they belonged in season 2, if anywhere, mainly because the whole Snow vs. Regina plot felt like it came to somewhat of a close when they all decided to go to Neverland.

Actually when I think about it, I feel like Snow's, Charming's, and Regina's stories seem complete enough, where I would be fine if they stopped showing flashbacks focused on snowing vs Regina unless it's completely necessary or just here and there. I'd rather they focused on the present day relationships concerning those characters.

[KAOS Agent]

 

I can't think of a way to fix 4B short of deleting the whole thing, going back to the pixie dust and everything stemming from it, and starting over.

 

Well it's clear that they're heading to a total rewrite of the story for the finale, so in a way, they are going to delete everything and start over. 4B does make me wish I had Regina's memory wiping ability. I'd be a much happier person if I couldn't remember it.

[Shanna Marie]

Actually when I think about it, I feel like Snow's, Charming's, and Regina's stories seem complete enough, where I would be fine if they stopped showing flashbacks focused on snowing vs Regina unless it's completely necessary or just here and there. I'd rather they focused on the present day relationships concerning those characters.

Right now, the flashbacks about them only make the present day relationships make less sense, and they're really not doing Regina any favors. It's hard to watch younger Regina getting pissy over a child winning riding ribbons, putting her horse under a sleeping curse, and egging Maleficent on to getting her evil mojo back and then switch to the present and buy the "we must do whatever it takes to get Regina her happy ending!" plot. And then to come up with more stuff to do with these characters in the past, they're twisting them into retcon knots.

 

I'd be more interested in seeing the backstories of the characters we haven't explored in such depth. I'm not crazy about Robin, but I'd be more interested in seeing Merry Men adventures with him than seeing more Evil Queen. If we're dealing with Maleficent in the present, I want to know what her deal with Briar Rose was. I want to know how Philip was saved. And then there's a couple of centuries worth of Hook's past, from his childhood before abandonment to whatever happened with that to his navy days to his early pirate days to his time with Milah to the years in Neverland and his relationship with Bae, and then the missing year and the mission to reach Emma, and there's however he knows Will. We could revisit James for a comparison to David. There's Cinderella's family, which would tie to Will because of Anastasia. I'm weary of Sparkle Dark, but that also gives us a couple of centuries to play with, stories he could intersect with.

[Zuleikha]

Right now, the flashbacks about them only make the present day relationships make less sense, and they're really not doing Regina any favors.

I like them, and other Evil Regals generally seem to like them. I think they're more of an issue for people who are looking for reasons to not like Regina. I would actually love to see more of Regina/Maleficent's friendship and more of Regina/Rumple's student-teacher relationship. 

 

I agree that Snowing stuff is played out and Snowing vs. Regina is particularly played out. What I would have liked, though, is Snow to still be Mayor (because really, why? Why was that just dumped in 4B? It actually made sense!) and to have Snowing flashbacks of them learning to rule their kingdom. 

 

In terms of tweaking the past seasons, I think I would have just paced season 2 differently. I think all of the ideas through Cora's death were solid, but nothing had the time to breathe that it needed. I would have slowed down the Team Princess adventures to use it to do some post-curse worldbuilding (I am STILL confused about how many people were left alive and how much of the world was affected by the Dark Curse vs. left alone vs. enclosed in the Cora Dome... and I went back and reread the 2A transcripts to try and figure it out one night when I was sick and bored). I would have made Lancelot a recurring, left Phillip dead, better developed Aurora/Mulan, and had more of Emma/Snow getting to know each other in Snow's element. I would have kept the sleeping curse part, but kept it simpler at Aurora/Henry instead of the contrived and not very sense-making David substitute. That extra time could have been used developing Regina/Archie in therapy, Belle/Ruby/Storybrooke residents debating whether they want to return to the Enchanted Forest, and Regina building connections/atoning with the residents of Storybrooke. I would have kept Abigail as a recurring character to be Regina's first atoned for/repaired friendship.

 

I would have kept most of the Cora/Regina/Snow plot intact, but I would have again just paced it slightly more slowly... have Cora work a little harder to get Regina back and have a little more explicit explanation from Regina about why she went back/how she felt about doing evil again. I feel Lana played those scenes like Regina felt no enjoyment about doing more evil but had numbed herself to it out of desperate loneliness; she believed that Cora was her only option for ever being loved or belonging so she was going to force herself to make things work. But we never really got text to establish one motivation versus another. I would not have bothered with Greg/Tamara because it was lame, but something could have been done with the Hipster Darlings or a Hipster Darling instead to get the failsafe sacrifice and the journey to Neverland. Maybe I would have done a one-off with Owen that ended with Regina apologizing for killing his father, and Owen finding some form of closure and leaving.

 

With 3A and 3B, sure some individual episodes could have been improved, but I think overall both 1/2 seasons were strong and coherent. I think both could have been expanded to fill a complete season, but short of that were fine. With 3B, though, I would have made Zelena a younger sister instead of an older sister, though, because the power of The Miller's Daughter is completely lost if Cora already had an abandoned child when she tricked Rumple into changing the contract. I'm sure the show could come up with some reason why early on in Cora/Henry Sr.'s marriage, Cora would have had to abandon Zelena rather than raise a second child. Have Zelena be affecting Cora's magic or Cora trade her to Rumple/Oz for more power or something. It wouldn't make any less sense than Bleeding Through already did! Also, I would have made Robin/Regina's relationship develop during the Missing Year.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I like them, and other Evil Regals generally seem to like them. I think they're more of an issue for people who are looking for reasons to not like Regina. I would actually love to see more of Regina/Maleficent's friendship and more of Regina/Rumple's student-teacher relationship.

I really didn't care for the Enter the Dragon flashbacks, to be honest. I thought they were boring and lacked originality. Regina hasn't had any good character flashbacks focused on herself since 3A. Everything after that has primarily been about her friends and foes. They didn't teach us anything new or develop her. I'm sad she's been reduced to reacting to threats and crying over losing her boyfriend in the present.

 

For flashbacks, I believe we should be shown critical moments instead of random adventures shoehorned into the timeline. Rumple creating the curse, what drove Henry to search for Emma, Baelfire escaping Neverland, the freaking entire Missing Year, etc. While lip service does the explaining mostly, there's a difference between telling and showing. If A&E want flashbacks showing the mains in their own era, then they should show important stuff that really happened instead of retconning the crap out of it.

Edited April 22, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

 

I'm sad she's been reduced to reacting to threats and crying over losing her boyfriend in the present.

 

Well she's a hero now. That's the only kind of story they get. 

 

I'm thinking this show could use an executive showrunner. The creators could still run all the ideas and be the headwriters, but someone more removed from things could keep things from getting so convoluted and stop the shiny new toy syndrome. We know the head of creative at Disney was a part of 4A and note that the Frozen portion and for the most part everything else was fairly organized. Minor plots were dropped or not used (Will), but the overarching story was pretty cohesive. Contrasted with the chaotic nature of 4B, it seems that perhaps having someone else at the helm providing a bit more direction helped immensely.

[Mathius]

The "Ariel" flashback can stay. I saw that as more about Ariel herself and what Regina did to her than about the usual Snow vs. Regina stuff, and we do need to understand how Ariel comes into the picture.

Plus, Ariel stabs Regina in the neck with a fork. That's justification enough for its existence.

I think the biggest problem with 3A was that they used the flashbacks thematically per episode rather than as an actual storytelling tool. Instead of giving us pertinent info on something relevant to the story, they had a bad tendency to go with the "this is the episode about believing in yourself, so here's a flashback about a character learning to believe in herself" approach, which was less effective when the flashback had absolutely nothing otherwise to do with the story. With the best use of flashbacks, if you removed the flashback, the rest of the episode wouldn't make much sense. With the thematic flashbacks, you can remove them without changing a thing in the present.

The only times in 3A where removing the flashbacks would have made the episodes fall apart in the present are "Quite a Common Fairy", "Good Form", "Ariel" and "Think Lovely Thoughts". With the first, I would have recommend just changing the episode's story and Tink's situation entirely, because what we got was kind of dumb and damaging in the long run. The others are fine as they are.

[Camera One]

I'm thinking this show could use an executive showrunner. The creators could still run all the ideas and be the headwriters, but someone more removed from things could keep things from getting so convoluted and stop the shiny new toy syndrome. We know the head of creative at Disney was a part of 4A and note that the Frozen portion and for the most part everything else was fairly organized. Minor plots were dropped or not used (Will), but the overarching story was pretty cohesive. Contrasted with the chaotic nature of 4B, it seems that perhaps having someone else at the helm providing a bit more direction helped immensely.

 

It could be as simple as the writers in 4A being forced to provide prolonged screentime and constant character moments for two "good guys" - Elsa and Anna, who were written to pursue noble and heroic quests.  If Emma, Snow and Charming got the quantity and quality of character moments, screentime and positive/active roles in 4B that Elsa and Anna got in 4A, the show would have a more solid foundation that the shiny toys could work on.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Camera One

[Zuleikha]

With the first, I would have recommend just changing the episode's story and Tink's situation entirely, because what we got was kind of dumb and damaging in the long run.

No! I love that episode. The only things I would have changed is I would have Tink and Regina be friends for longer, Regina know Tink was in a bad position with Blue, and Regina encourage Tink to steal the pixie dust for her. That would have made the betrayal an actual betrayal instead of Tink pushing something on Regina. Also, there was no need to reveal who was in the tavern. I think the show should have played that part a bit closer to the vest (although if the writing for Regina and Robin had been better in 4A, I don't think the pixie dust would be a problem either).

[KAOS Agent]

What would have improved the pixie dust reveal is if more than one person had that tattoo. If Robin is a fake out, they could still make 4A work and have Regina fall for Robin and lose him to Marian's return (and no silly Zelena reveal!), but have her learn that the tattoo is something all members of the Royal Roundtable of Random Storybook Heroes have and Robin was not in fact her fated soulmate. Robin could be less of a jackass, Regina retains her self-respect, Marian is not dead and still awesome and someone whose wife had not been murdered by Regina in a different timeline could be her new love interest.

[FurryFury]

I'm sure that nobody would quit the show if OQ isn't endgame. I mean, some people will cry, sure, but it's clear this fanbase isn't anywhere close to CS, for example (or Rumbelle... or even SQ). They really could have used Robin to show Regina's character development without making him her ultimate partner. Actually, it's still not too late, but too much time has been spent on Robin and the Marian situation (which ironically enough only served to paint him black. I was never a fan of the character, but at least I tolerated him in 3B - now I just hate him with a burning passion and refuse to watch the scenes he's in).

[YaddaYadda]

I think them turning around and saying that Robin is the wrong guy would be sort of a neat twist because of the whole fairy/pixie dust thing.  So Regina "loves" him and he loves her, but the only reason she opened up to him, trusted him was because of what the dust said and because she saw the tattoo.  She believes he is her happy ending, so what happens if he's not the guy she saw at the tavern?  Does she freak out?  Does she break up with him?  Does she start on a quest to find her true love/soulmate/whatever they are called on the show these days?

 

The show relies too heavily on magic, so what if the magic was wrong?

[Mari]

The show relies too heavily on magic, so what if the magic was wrong?

I've thought since the pixie dust thing and the official Outlaw Queen start, that the most interesting thing that could happen with the Robin/Regina relationship would be for them to discover that since Tink stole the pixie dust, it didn't work properly. It would open the relationship up to all of the issues you mentioned, and give the show a chance to rebuild the relationship in a more organic way.

Robin could still end up being a great love of Regina's, but it would seem more authentic and earned.

[Mathius]

No! I love that episode. The only things I would have changed is I would have Tink and Regina be friends for longer, Regina know Tink was in a bad position with Blue, and Regina encourage Tink to steal the pixie dust for her. That would have made the betrayal an actual betrayal instead of Tink pushing something on Regina.

Yeah, that made no sense. So many characters should have a legit beef with Regina and an understandable wish to see her dead, and now she's being blamed and her life is being threatened by someone who pretty much dug her own grave by choosing to steal pixie dust of their own accord and would have likely been kicked out by Blue anyway even IF Regina had accepted her help? That was lame. Although Zelena and her reason for a grudge against Regina managed to top it.

My issue with the episode's connecting Regina and Tink is that it makes no thematic sense for the rest of the Neverland cast. Pan, Hook, Smee, Wendy, John and Michael...all characters from the Peter Pan story and who are their most noteworthy connections when it comes to characters beyond that story? Rumple, Milah, Baelfire, Emma and Henry. Their main connection is to the "Stiltskin family" side of the story, NOT the "Charming family vs. Mills family" side. Obviously there are tight connections between these sides of the story (particularly with Emma and Henry being a big part of both), but the point is that the Neverland cast mostly corresponds to just the Rumple-based one. So to insert Tink right into the progression of the Snow White story when the Evil Queen was becoming evil and feeding her own hatred of Snow makes little sense. They didn't give Snow and Charming a past connection to a Neverland character to give them something to work with on the island, why does Regina have to receive special treatment in this regard?

Ironically, the reverse has recently happened: Maleficent had a pre-established history with Regina and a solid motive to consider her an enemy now and want revenge...but no, that's all swept aside and out of nowhere it's "revealed" that Snow and Charming are her greatest enemies who she wants revenge on. The writers gave a character connection to Snow and Charming even when it made no thematic sense whatsoever.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Mathius