A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[stealinghome]

Have to agree that the problem with Storybrooke is the writing, but I would also say that the problem with Storybrooke is the problem no matter where the show goes these days: it's just fucking boring. I take the point about a change of scenery at least shaking things up, but at this point, I'm just not confident that even a shake-up would get the show out of the rut it's in. The writing has become just so incredibly superficial and flat-out bad that short of firing at least half of the writing staff and hiring new blood, I have zero confidence that any major creative decisions made on the show would result in a better product.

 

Also, I agree that the show couldn't have been in Neverland for a full 22 episodes, but that having Panry plotting in Storybrooke could definitely have carried 3B (with some slight modifications, mostly that Pan was a sort of alternate personality that could take over Henry at night. I don't think Pan could've convincingly impersonated Henry for 8 or so episodes, so having "normal" Henry by day and Pan-in-Henry by night would've been the way to go).

Edited March 22, 2015 by stealinghome

[Shanna Marie]

Theoretically, Storybrooke should be a fun setting with loads of potential. It's an archetypal idyllic small American town that happens to be populated with fairy tale characters. The We Are Both thing means that they function in this world, know how to drive, use cell phones and the Internet, etc., but they also know they're fairy tale characters from a magical world. There should be a big mash-up of real world and fairy tale world cultures as they pick and choose the things from their layered identities. It's the kind of place where the Snow Queen runs the ice cream parlor, Bo Peep is the butcher and Rumpelstiltskin runs a pawn shop. But they haven't bothered building or developing this world, and even if they did, our main characters seldom interact with this world. There's been more worldbuilding and use of the world they built in those "Good Morning Storybrooke" features they've put on YouTube and on the DVDs than there's been in the entire show. I'm still laughing at the idea of the Boy Who Cried Wolf being a TV reporter covering a made-up disaster (until it's finally a real one).

 

There should be a lot more texture in this world, giving us little glimpses of fairy tale life playing out in our world. Like the Black Knights, now wearing black sweatsuits, jogging past in formation. There should be a bar where the villains hang out, like in the Shrek movies -- maybe not the major season arc villains, but minor villains. Really, they shouldn't have needed to bring in guest villains for this "villains get their happy endings" plot. They should already have had a kind of Greek chorus of villains hanging out at the Rabbit Hole and plotting ways to get their happy endings, and figuring out that this might be the place it could happen. We don't know if there are magic users other than the fairies, Regina, Rumple and Emma, but are there people who maybe have one magical object (like Jefferson) or who can do one particular kind of magic, like making shoes?

 

And if the world's a richer, more developed place, stories will naturally follow. Right now, Storybrooke is so barely sketched out that they have to bring in outside villains because there's no inherent drama or conflict in the setting. The weird thing is, in the first season it did work out like that, with the town itself practically being a character that generated stories. It should have become more interesting when the people realized their true identities, not less interesting. Right now, Storybrooke is a collection of buildings and a few regulars like Granny and Grumpy. They don't even seem to bother ever having extras just walking down the street to make it look like a living town.

[Camera One]

Well said.  Because they've done such a bad job of this world-building WITHIN Storybrooke, when they actually *do* reveal something new, like Bo Peep being a butcher in town and still having her staff, it's totally WTF.  Like, why the hell would she continue working as a butcher when her personality would probably mean she's now a gangster with a bunch of thugs and a neighborhood she terrorizes (her former "flock").  The whole "Storybrooke is so peaceful when there isn't a megavillain around" premise and the Sheriffs having no *normal* law and order type tasks to do just falls to pieces.  There should be lots of bad people around, all the minor villains in what was basically a crime-ridden medieval society transplanted to "our world".  Why would everyone just "behave"?  Like that idiotic comment the writers gave the dwarves about how Storybrooke is so nice and quiet without Snow and Charming around.  Yeah, like they're the problem.  

 

With more worldbuilding within Storybrooke, natural storylines should emerge.  For example, Emma and Charming having difficulties working together as they tackle petty crime in the city could have worked for an episode or two in 2B as they found their groove in the workplace.  Another source of stories are the random children in Snow's class, who could go to her for help.  

Edited March 22, 2015 by Camera One

[Zuleikha]

I don't think Pan could've convincingly impersonated Henry for 8 or so episodes, so having "normal" Henry by day and Pan-in-Henry by night would've been the way to go).

 

I think Pan could have convincingly impersonated Henry but I don't think Jared was up to the task of portraying Pan convincingly impersonating Henry. 

 

There should be a lot more texture in this world, giving us little glimpses of fairy tale life playing out in our world. Like the Black Knights, now wearing black sweatsuits, jogging past in formation. There should be a bar where the villains hang out, like in the Shrek movies -- maybe not the major season arc villains, but minor villains.

 

Yes! I do wonder about Regina's knights, King George's knight, those villains who donated locks to Regina's first attempt at casting the dark curse... where are all of those people and their divided loyalties? Everyone in the Enchanted Forest wasn't on Snowing's side and those tensions should still be present in post-curse break Storybrooke. We know the Sheriff of Nottingham was brought over by the curse (and why was he brought over in Curse 1.0 when Robin and the Merry Men weren't? Serious question if anyone knows the answer). Season 2 really dropped the ball on the opportunity to flesh a lot of this out in a coherent fashion (and 3B missed an opportunity to effectively rewrite the rules to fit what the writers knew they could handle)

 

I think the Rabbit Hole is the bar where the villains hang out, though. We just almost never see it. But it had that vibe in Lacey.

[Camera One]

I think Pan could have convincingly impersonated Henry but I don't think Jared was up to the task of portraying Pan convincingly impersonating Henry.

 

I thought he was fine in the last two episodes of 3A.  It doesn't have to be too subtle.  He could just play it the way he plays normal Henry, with less smiling.

[KAOS Agent]

We know the Sheriff of Nottingham was brought over by the curse (and why was he brought over in Curse 1.0 when Robin and the Merry Men weren't? Serious question if anyone knows the answer

 

Robin and the Merry Men were inside the Coradome, the sheriff wasn't. 

 

 

With more worldbuilding within Storybrooke, natural storylines should emerge.  For example, Emma and Charming having difficulties working together as they tackle petty crime in the city could have worked for an episode or two in 2B as they found their groove in the workplace.

 

I'm still pissed that David has anointed himself co-sheriff. There was an election where the people chose who they wanted in that role. Royalty doesn't get to just suddenly decide to be sheriff. That's a story in itself. Why not have a bit of a clash of democracy vs monarchy? 

 

I'm also really tired of the villains being the only ones with a story. They used to be able to work in the regular people of Storybrooke and make their past fit with the present day story. It used to be that everyone had a complex background. Many of them were tragic. But those individuals chose a different path from the villains. Look at Archie. He was abused by his parents, manipulated by Rumpel and accidentally turned a lovely couple with a young child into creepy puppets. His response wasn't to blame others and vow revenge, he accepted responsibility and tried to make amends by helping Geppetto. I'm not sure how becoming a cricket did that, but whatever, that's not the point.  The point of those stories was to show that people make mistakes and it's how we respond that defines us. That is what makes a hero or a villain, not some stupid author. Morality still existed in Season 1. Now we're spending an entire season with a story based on the idea that it's all predestined by some author and no one has free will. I hate this message. Hate it. It ruins everything that came before. 

Edited March 22, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[myril]

The point of those stories was to show that people make mistakes and it's how we respond that defines us. That is what makes a hero or a villain, not some stupid author. Morality still existed in Season 1. Now we're spending an entire season with a story based on the idea that it's all predestined by some author and no one has free will. I hate this message. Hate it. It ruins everything that came before. 

 

The funny thing is, as I see it the Author story was pretty much in the fabric, in the DNA of the show, the book had a prominent role in season 1. As the question of individual responsibility/free will or fate/influence of some higher power and the question of the power of belief was there from the very beginning of the show. If they wouldn't have gone for soap opera-ish Love-conquers-all as overarcing theme, this question of  fate or individual responsibility could have been the meta of the show. It has been a meta in several good TV series, all of Star Trek, Buffy, Xena, Battlestar Galactica - it's an interesting  theme to work with, asking very basic questions of what makes us human.

 

If this show would stop trying so hard to be silly easy digestible Sunday eve distraction with cheap and fast gone by WOW effects, the Author story could even not just make sense but get into interesting territory. They probably think, that they are even doing that. The Author story could work already slightly better, if they would have at least one voice of reason questioning the whole idea and the quest as stupid and a waste of time (Charming, Hook, whoever). Instead we get a goofy race between goodevil and evilsobs to find the Author, with some useless Snowing secret squashed in and the usual flashback swamp of misunderstood and unfortunate villain sob. Yawn.

 

The cosmic justice/injustice silliness is not new and not even bound to Regina, though I agree, she is the most prominent winner concerning it. But remember how fans excused Neal failing Emma, talking of fate, claiming he had to do it to not get in the way of her becoming the savior, so Emma could follow her calling to save her parents and a whole town of people trapped in a curse. The writers very much made it look that way in the end.

 

In season 2 episode Manhattan they turned Rumple's story into one very much directed by Rumple believing in fate, though for hundreds of years Rumple on the other hand claimed, that he was giving people a choice, that it always was their doing, their responsibility what happened, regardless that he manipulated people into doing what he thought fate had already laid out. It was like he couldn't let go of believing in fate for his own sake (to excuse him failing his family) while desperately looking for a sign, that people could go against fate (so he could believe in somehow overcoming his fate and be reunited with his son). But the writers never made something of that dilemma, it was mostly in Carlyle's acting.

 

And then came the pixie dust. Before it the show was not all decided about if it's more fate or individual responsibility, there was still a fight going on, but with the pixie dust they pretty much put the nail in the coffin. There is  a very slim chance, that the pixie dust was not telling fate set in stone but a fate that can change, but a lot of fans took it as unchangeable truth written in stone. Regina and Robin were meant to be, but fate would test them and keep them apart until both are truly ready for their happy ending with each other. Or so.

 

Bringing up the Author after this pixie dust deadlock inevitably looks like fate is the winner, some higher power being the puppet master. Although, not giving up all hope, regardless that they leave little with what they make of it on the show, in the end could turn out, the Author never had that power, or the characters he/she created have developed a life on their own and no matter what, by now they could do something differently. Unfortunately the meta of the idea is though not salvageable, this show has become a fantasy soap opera joke and I don't see any way back to a more ambitious story telling.

 

Meanwhile by the way Rumple seemed to have totally lost his ability to see glimpses of the future - maybe because he was kinda dead? Or maybe the Author took it away, because Rumple fulfilled his role for the story and is a dead character walking?

 

The Author story could have been a great one to dig into an interesting theme, but they don't know how to make good use of it, and as so many other things on this show, it is reduced mostly to be some silly WOW train of fun entertainment. Time to puff myself out of its track. ;-)

 

Agree much with what many have said: If Storybrook would limit magic significantly or have no magic at all, it would be a still intriguing place with a lot of interesting story material. So think, if they want to get of the track of bore and cheap thrill and silly brief effects, they should come up with a curse, limiting or taking away magic in Storybrook for the last season(s). Let the characters finally settle in a world without magic, where individual responsibility takes over and fate loses power.

 

More world hopping would make IMO only something better on this show, if they would be ready to let go of some of the main characters and their stories, maybe even of all of them. There is nothing interesting in whiny Regina going on some other quest for whatever to whatever other world. It could be interesting for a couple of episodes maybe to see Emma confronted with just another magic crazy world again, which she knows from her storybooks, but even that has not much to offer. Otherwise I can at the moment only think of some of the supporting characters being interesting to follow their story and eventually do that in a different world.

 

The development of the main characters simply stalled, and it's due time to bring their story to an end. As much as fans never can get enough and would love to explore every detail of their favorite character(s) (I am no different), it's not what good story telling makes. Paying attention to detail makes stories more believable, sometimes more relatable, but that doesn't mean, that you have to tell all details. Focusing on every detail indeed can kill good story telling even. Forgetting about details, you set up before, is bad writing though.

Edited March 22, 2015 by katusch

[Rhodri]

I agree with all the criticisms and wishes about going back to the core characters and life in non-magical Storybrooke. And again, I'm hoping that the last season is just that.  

Some glimpses of this that came up and bothered me were these.

 

When the Electric Plant went down: Who had been magically imbued with that knowledge and had that job for 28 years during the curse?  It wasn't the responsibility of the town drunk and the restaurant owner.  We have magic back so I was assuming that all those mundane things were now set up magically but that brings up what are all those people doing now - out drinking?  Wouldn't having a fairy wave her wand be a better idea than have the unskilled interim mayor risk her and her baby's life?  If not some magical person, find those who had that job during the curse. It's a big town but it wouldn't be difficult to find out who they were.

 

The old villains that were shopkeepers and street sweepers during the curse have been awfully quiet considering how pissed off they should be.  Again, out drinking?  This wave of alcoholism should be a concern!

 

What exactly are the Fairies doing and why are they still dressed as nuns?  Not that anyone has ever cared about them considering how everyone reacted or rather didn't react at all when Blue was butchered and then was resurrected.

 

I have wondered since season 1 why Regina hasn't called upon her old loyal guard and why she didn't keep them as her lackeys during the curse.  Some of them must have been loyal out of real feeling rather than fear and if she wasn't sure, that would have been apparent right after the curse when she had no magic.

 

I find Rumple more interesting without magic because he is still an evil genius, just has to put more effort and fun into his schemes which I suppose is too much work for the writers.

 

So many stories of fairytale characters being paired up with random strangers during the curse that have to reclaim their happy endings or just their families while being torn about their curse families.  What about those married off to villains and woke up to that!  

 

When they were growing the beans and the Charmings were debating going back to the EF, I was shouting, "Hey that's not for you to decide for everybody!  You live in a democracy now!".  I would have loved to see those debates and hear the reasons pro and con and finally letting those who want to go, go.  Then see how it affects the workings of the town.  Or going back to the EF and incorporating the good things about the future there and seeing if democracy can work there.  I know how prosaic that sounds but that's what I find interesting.  

 

I really want to see Storybrooke TV and have a roving reporter interviewing citizens on the all the issues of transition and maybe an Oprah or Springer-like show to deal with those issues. 

 

When they first started going off to the new Villain du jour, I was annoyed when the characters that purposely made us love during season 1 fell to the wayside.  I keep watching in hopes of getting back to them.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Rhodri

[Writing Wrongs]

I have to admit it. Now that the Frozen storyline is done I've become bored with the rest of the season so far. I haven't even been keeping up as much with spoilers.

[HoodlumSheep]

I too, liked the Frozen storyline (I wasn't really fond of the movie--it's average, and I like plenty other disney flicks better). Hopefully A&E evaluate what worked and didn't this season and come back with a stronger fifth season.

[stealinghome]

We've been saying that for 3 seasons now, though, so I'm not holding my breath.

[Zuleikha]

The development of the main characters simply stalled, and it's due time to bring their story to an end.

 

I disagree with this. I think there's a lot of interesting development left to do with Regina, Emma, Snow, Charming, Belle, Hook, and even Henry. Rumple, I think, is out of story and needs to be soundly defeated because he's getting into the Syler problem that happened on Heroes (for those who didn't follow, Syler was the main villain in S1 but the writers loved Zachary Quinto so much, they kept contriving ways to keep Syler on the show even though his story was the same redeem/return to villainy/redeem/return to villainy and Syler was similarly overpowered).

 

But in terms of the others, they're all still growing and changing as characters. Prior to the 4A finale, I would have said Belle was stagnant, but having her actually leave Rumple opens up a lot of development for her. The main problem, IMHO, is that the character growth doesn't organically tie to fairy backs or external magical conflict. IMHO, we should be seeing things like Snow actually being Mayor and her, Charming, and Emma all working through the feelings raised by Neal's existence. We should be seeing Regina struggling to figure out her identity and what she wants to do with her life now that she's neither the Evil Queen nor Mayor Mills (which yes, I know she is back to being Mayor Mills but she shouldn't be... it was super lame to have the logical mayor changeover and then just undo it). Heck, we could get more Hook/Regina interaction as the two villains actively working to change and get some of those philosophical conversations about what it means to change and seek to move past villainy (for example, is Regina even looking for redemption or does she accept that as an impossibility and is just seeking to live her life differently). Emma should be continuing to work on her magic, her relationship with Henry and her parents, and also should be further developing the 3B/4A raised questions about what she wants for her life. Henry has his whole longing for heroism and a fairy tale identity that was central to 3A but has been fairly dropped since. But he's growing up and as he enters that liminal space between child and adult, what does that do to his interest in being part of a fairy tale world? What does it mean for him that he's not isolated by being the only person existing in time? Do those false memories of normal life in NYC become more attractive for teen Henry than crazy Storybrooke?

 

I think if the writers were more interested in the daily life of Storybrooke, this stuff could be dealt with well. When they're forced to do it, the writers can write great character interaction and conversation and they're blessed with actors who make those quiet moments sing. But the writers seem convinced that the show needs to be an epic action adventure show all the time, even though S1 worked so well because it contrasted quiet, character-focused Storybrooke scenes with action adventure Enchanted Forest flashbacks. Part of what I liked so much about Neverland is that the show slowed down again.

[myril]

I think if the writers were more interested in the daily life of Storybrooke, this stuff could be dealt with well. When they're forced to do it, the writers can write great character interaction and conversation and they're blessed with actors who make those quiet moments sing. But the writers seem convinced that the show needs to be an epic action adventure show all the time, even though S1 worked so well because it contrasted quiet, character-focused Storybrooke scenes with action adventure Enchanted Forest flashbacks. Part of what I liked so much about Neverland is that the

show slowed down again.

 

IMO the writers are not interested in the daily Storybrooke stuff, they are not interested in slowing it down, they've just served us the thrill of 3 more whiny and occasionally snarky villains. Belle makes jumps in development, sadly they didn't give her the actual space to develop on the screen, but as likely she might regress in jumps back taking Rumple back at the end of the season. Emma turned into a Regina cheer-up and sitter, which sure is some kind of development but one I don't feel much logic in. Will dropped into Storybrooke like a stranger from some star and we still know little about him - does anyone who hasn't watched Wonderland even care if Rumple would turn him into some ferret? Regina has in my eyes regressed with the whole Robin and pixie dust mess into a spoiled and whiny drama queen crying for her happy ending asap, and it has to come with guarantee. For me the WTF-moments by now outnumber significantly the Wow-moments. I don't see much of character development, only some character changes making little sense, or changes somewhat making sense but have to fanwank much of how the character might have gotten there. So IMO the character development has stalled.

 

Regardless that in theory and in our imagination there is for sure plenty of story still to tell, the show has reached for me a standstill. Of course one can still get audience even with the same formula playing out again and again, look at most crime shows, they're extremely successful with that, but the show doesn't give a least me anymore the emotional and intellectual depth and curiosity I felt at the beginning, not because it was a new show, but it promised to be something different. It was fun to explore fairy tales new with the cast and crew, but by now it has the taste of an addiction, something one can't stop following but doesn't enjoy much anymore.

[Camera One]

But in terms of the others, they're all still growing and changing as characters.

 

Yes and that's what is the most frustrating about this show.  The potential is screaming out, but never realized.  It goes without saying that characters who are seeking redemption such as Hook or Regina have much more to work through, plus characters like Emma who are still learning to open up, or Belle, who is reassessing/processing her whole relationship with Rumple, and even the goody-too-shoes characters like Snow and Charming have room to grow since their development as rulers and as parents were cut short by the Curse.  This huge amount of potential left in the main characters is rare for a show by the fourth season, though mainly because any development thus far has just barely scratched the surface and the potential has remained largely untapped.  Heck, even Granny, Grumpy, Blue and Gepetto could all have growth at this point, and this doesn't even cover the multitudes of guest characters they've brought on whose stories were never fully told.

 

But we speak idealistically, and then look at "Enter the Dragon", where every potential for every character's development was squandered.  The helpless Blue Fairy with eternal hope is actually us.  

Edited March 22, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

When the Electric Plant went down: Who had been magically imbued with that knowledge and had that job for 28 years during the curse?

Yeah, even if the town was maintained by magic so nothing ever really broke, there should have been someone who believed that was his job and remembered having that job.

 

Then there were all of Regina's snarky remarks about the maintenance of the infrastructure while Snow was mayor. Gee, who was mayor for the previous twenty-eight or so years, up until a week before? And now that Regina's noticed these infrastructure issues and is mayor again, what is she doing about it? Regina having to actually be a real mayor in a town that isn't being magically sustained would be a fun plot. There should at least be an election. Now that Sidney's free, how would the newspaper cover Regina's term in office?

 

The old villains that were shopkeepers and street sweepers during the curse have been awfully quiet considering how pissed off they should be.

And then we have new villains, like the crew Hook ditched (Smee mentioned the crew talking about wanting to get into piracy again, so they're in Storybrooke). We have a gang of pirates in town, some of whom may not have cursed identities, they wanted to get back into piracy, and they now remember that their captain ditched them, let the curse get them, and is no longer interested in piracy, and worse, is helping the sheriff. What do they think about this? And we have the Merry Men, who are theoretically good guys, but they're also thieves. The sheriff's department should have their hands full even without major villains, and should definitely be too busy to run around serving Regina's whims (and she should be too busy to be chasing her own whims instead of running the town).

 

Dealing with outsiders could be fun. Regina complained about property values being lowered, but if outsiders can't come in, what difference does it make? They have a little fun with this in the other show about a strange small Maine town, Haven, where they're always having to cover up the supernatural events so the tourists won't notice. There was once an outsider who wasn't in on the secret who talked about how he'd thought of investing in real estate there because he could buy it for a song, but then he found out that the insurance rates were really high.

 

At the very least, the mayor's office should be working on civil defense plans -- what to do in case of monster, what to do in case of outsider, what to do in case of new curse, etc.

[KAOS Agent]

In season 2 episode Manhattan they turned Rumple's story into one very much directed by Rumple believing in fate, though for hundreds of years Rumple on the other hand claimed, that he was giving people a choice, that it always was their doing, their responsibility what happened, regardless that he manipulated people into doing what he thought fate had already laid out. It was like he couldn't let go of believing in fate for his own sake (to excuse him failing his family) while desperately looking for a sign, that people could go against fate (so he could believe in somehow overcoming his fate and be reunited with his son).

 

See I think that the writers aren't very clear on what fate and predestination means. In that same episode, they had Neal saying that it was Emma's destiny to break the curse, but his being there meant she wouldn't have. If they want to say it's predestined and everything will happen as it was written, then there's no way that Neal would have been able to stop it either. Neal is not some sort of special destiny breaker. Neither is Rumpel. This show can't have it both ways. You can't say that Neal staying with Emma would have messed up her destiny, if the point is that there is this hidden power that controls what will happen in the future.

 

It's interesting that A&E are such huge Back to the Future fans because as I recall that trilogy ended with Marty breaking his pattern of response to being called a chicken which meant he was not involved in the crash with the Rolls Royce and thus, didn't destroy his life. Doc came by to tell him that the future is ours as we make it. Their adventures in the past still made sense because when you go back and screw up past events, certain choices wouldn't be available and the present would be different, but given the same set of choices, the present should remain the same. Rumpel's (and the seer's) visions of the future more seem to be based on how things would go based on the way the pieces are placed on the board. If even one of those pieces is removed or makes an unexpected move, then the future would change. To bring it back to the events in "Manhattan" & "Tallahassee," we see that Neal's daddy issues are still very much in effect. When faced with the prospect of meeting his father again, he acted as expected and ran, ditching Emma in the process. Had he made the unexpected choice, perhaps the future would have been different. This show plays fast and loose with the "rules" of destiny depending on their plot of the day and the constant contradictions really screw everything up.

Edited March 22, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

If the show's events were predestined (like the curse, Emma being the Savior, etc.), wouldn't that mean it was impossible for Emma and Hook to mess up with timeline? 

[HoodlumSheep]

If the show's events were predestined (like the curse, Emma being the Savior, etc.), wouldn't that mean it was impossible for Emma and Hook to mess up with timeline?

But what if Emma and hook were predestined to mess up, then correct the timeline? Basically it goes in circles.

[Writing Wrongs]

Now that the novelty of baby Neal is over, what purpose does he serve? They barely show him. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

Now that the novelty of baby Neal is over, what purpose does he serve? They barely show him.

I love how Snow and Charming have conquered baby parenting already. No problems whatsoever. There's plenty of babysitters to do the job for them, anyway. Granted its been a few months, but it seems like they can just go off on dangerous missions whenever they want. It's probably the wonky passage of time taking its toll.

Edited March 23, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

It's incredibly convenient that the Charmings can pawn Neal off on a babysitter all the time now. Would it really be that much of a hassle to show Snow or David with a baby carrier strapped to their chest during a random scene here and there to at least give the illusion that they're parenting a newborn? They don't even need to hire a baby for those scenes if it's completely covered up. Just pull an American Sniper and have a fake doll around all the time.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Curio

[stealinghome]

Hey, at least it's a good alibi for why we very rarely see Granny anymore.

 

But seriously, I agree--they shouldn't have written Goodwin's pregnancy into the show. It's not like ignoring a pregnancy would be the biggest stretch this show has asked us to accept--it wouldn't even be in the Top 20, in fact! They should've just had Snow standing behind potted plants in 3A--because goodness knows there were enough of them in Neverland--and have her carrying lots and lots of laundry baskets in 3B. Hey, David and Emma were traipsing all over the woods, SOMEONE has to clean all that mud out!

Edited March 23, 2015 by stealinghome

[Zuleikha]

Now that the novelty of baby Neal is over, what purpose does he serve?

So that they wouldn't have to be a-holes by writing Snow off the show during Ginnifer's pregnancy. I feel like this is the type of thing we really need to cut the writers slack on. We all know the meta reasons Neal exists. I think the writers did a decent job incorporating the pregnancy into strong character moments for Snow, Charming, and Emma, and I expect Neal will have more symbolic importance in other episodes as the Maleficent-and-her-baby come back into play. But personally, I'm happy to wank that Granny or Belle or a dwarf or a fairy or one of Ashley/Aurora is watching Neal while Snow and Charming do things and skip the scenes of Snowing finding babysitters or Snow having a breastfeeding plot or more Mommy and Me groups (it was cute once, but that's enough!). 

[KAOS Agent]

The problem is that they wrote Snow having serious issues leaving Neal and being not even willing to let David hold him and now that's just over. I know date night was them supposedly helping Snow with letting go, but it wouldn't have been that abrupt given her history of losing babies. It should be even stronger now that Maleficent is in town and on the warpath about them stealing/cursing/whatever caused her to lose her baby. It's just another in a long list of things that this show doesn't care about in terms of consistency and realistic emotional character reactions.

Edited March 24, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

 

It should be even stronger now that Maleficent is in town and on the warpath about them stealing/cursing/whatever caused her to lose her baby.

Especially after that freaking nightmare of Maleficent threatening to kill her family while holding him! Is Snow's number one concern seriously that Emma finds out? Like does she even care that Mal is out for revenge? Snow doesn't seem to give two figs about the Queens of Darkness. She's just worried her secret's going to get out. She'll jeopardize the town by withholding information just to make sure it doesn't. Like wow, Snow.

Edited March 24, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

These are the writers who two episodes ago had Regina spending her day with the Storybook while the Queens roamed the town.  These are the writers who don't have Regina or anybody worried about Henry all alone at home with his dear magnifying glass.

 

It's obvious the writers couldn't care less about character-driven stuff for Snow or Charming, so they didn't bother really thinking about what their mindset should be.  They didn't even bother giving a throw-away line to why Snow decided not to stay on as Mayor.  Likewise, the apprehension about the baby is goners now that they need Snow and Charming acting all paranoid and desperate to remind us forgetful viewers that they are keeping a secret from Emma and that Emma could go postal at any moment.  Using Snow and Charming as plot devices show their lack of interest in their characters

Edited March 24, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I never fully grasp how far this show has truly fallen until I rewatch an episode from S1. I feel sorry for all the viewers who watched it on TV from the beginning, because it used to be so good. Especially at the beginning and toward the end of the season, there was such a flow to it. It had a very strong, looming momentum going. The curse brought on a lot of very interesting and unique character dynamics that you really couldn't get under normal circumstances. Maybe I'm romanticizing (and believe me, not all of S1 is perfect), but several of the episodes are on my list of favorites.

I wonder how you go from writing that to now. It feels like I'm watching a completely different show.

Edited March 26, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Zuleikha]

Having just watched it all in a fairly condensed period of time, I think it's all about 2B lowering expectations. :) 2B was so painfully horrid that it worked almost like a palette cleanser to make 3A and onward enjoyable again. I don't expect anything to go back to the quality of S1, though. S1 was just a nicely done, complete story. I am really glad the writers didn't try and drag the premise out but completed their story and embraced the gamble of dealing with what came next. They haven't completely figured it out, and I don't expect that any of the seasons will ever be so tightly written as S1, but I also don't think they've fallen back to the clusterf*ck of 2B post-Miller's Daughter. I feel like they've hit a nice groove of campy fun, and I do actually like how most of the characters have developed.

[SilverShadow]

I really think the show's original sin was when they attempted to gloss over the curse fallout by sending Emma and Mary Margaret to the Enchanted Forest so soon. Ifn they had held fof for an epsiode or two and resolved some of the emotional conflicts it would have worked better. I also think Aurora, Mulan, and Phillip would have been received a lot better if they had shown up in episode 2 or 3 and not in the first scene of the episode where fans had been waiting months to see what happened to the characters they were already introduced to.

 

That was the first really blatant plot over character move. There'd been smaller thing that fans hadn't responded well to (David and Mary M not knowing what a divorce is for some weird reason) but "Broken" and its aftermath defintiely took some bloom off the rose. And when everyone was back from the Forest and those conflicts still weren't resolved and Regina had spent half the seaosn trying to be good only to pull a reversal in aproxiamtly five seconds with limited justification...I don't think the show has ever compeltely recovered.

Edited March 26, 2015 by SilverShadow

[KingOfHearts]

I think Team Princess could have worked in the grand scheme of things if 2B dealt more with the Charming family and less with demolishing Regina's redemption. 2A itself was decent and I didn't have any problems with it. (On the contrary, I like it.) I admire the writers for their gutsy move of pulling Emma and Snow right into the Enchanted Forest almost immediately after the curse was broken.

Things started falling apart in The Cricket Game. I can't even bring myself to watch that episode.

[Shanna Marie]

I was disappointed in 2A when I first watched it because I wanted to see more post-curse fallout, but I really liked it upon a rewatch. I agree that it's 2B that killed everything. In a sense, Emma being sent immediately to the Enchanted Forest with her mother was a bit of post-curse fallout because it put Emma face-to-face with the reality of the situation and threw her into the fairytale world, where she had to see "Mary Margaret" as badass bandit Snow White and see the castle where she should have grown up. I could have done with more curse fallout in Storybrooke because there were elements in there that I liked that could have been developed better. The problem is that they stopped developing them in 2B and then we got Regina whiplash. She went from earnestly trying to be better to bad in about 30 seconds for no really good reason (and the fact that she was so easily manipulated by Cora into doing that should have made her see Snow's secret telling in a new light), then went on to be really, really bad, with plans to kill everyone in town, and meanwhile Snow and Emma suddenly started being Regina cheerleaders, and then when Regina essentially defused the bomb she herself developed and set up to kill everyone in town, she got moved into the "hero" column, with all her past sins wiped entirely clean, even though she's yet to even suggest that she realizes she was ever in the wrong.

 

4B is shaping up to be the new 2B, though. The further they get into this Author plot, the less sense it makes. Regina came up with this idea out of the blue, based on no evidence whatsoever. It was a grasping at straws to explain her situation while avoiding personal responsibility. When she told Rumple, he didn't seem to have considered the idea before. He apparently knew all about the Sorcerer and the hat, but the idea that there was an Author dictating fate was news to him (and didn't he even scoff at it a bit?). But now he's basing his entire plan on this idea, and now we're supposed to believe that August knew about it and was researching it enough to know about the door even before the curse broke. It would have helped if Regina had based her idea on something at all -- something she saw in the book, some reference she found to an Author, anything other than some rather childish idea that because she's a villain in the book, she can't have things work out the way she wants them now. It's also funny how even the writers can't seem to sustain this concept because they keep contradicting it. They have heroes having bad things happen and bad outcomes, and now we have both Ursula and Poseidon getting their happy ending while the Author is apparently still trapped in the page and with zero input from the Savior. Unless Ursula gets back home and pulls a Regina, so that three days after getting everything she thought she wanted she starts feeling like she was robbed because she doesn't have True Love and a pony, this should be proof that the entire thing is bogus.

[Mathius]

Having just watched it all in a fairly condensed period of time, I think it's all about 2B lowering expectations. :) 2B was so painfully horrid that it worked almost like a palette cleanser to make 3A and onward enjoyable again. I don't expect anything to go back to the quality of S1, though. S1 was just a nicely done, complete story. I am really glad the writers didn't try and drag the premise out but completed their story and embraced the gamble of dealing with what came next. They haven't completely figured it out, and I don't expect that any of the seasons will ever be so tightly written as S1, but I also don't think they've fallen back to the clusterf*ck of 2B post-Miller's Daughter. I feel like they've hit a nice groove of campy fun, and I do actually like how most of the characters have developed.

THIS. All of it, especially that S1 was so great because it was a complete story and the curse premise ended exactly when it should have, in the finale. I hear some people complaining that the curse never should have been broken because it's what made the show good, but that isn't true at all. Bringing in magic at the end was the problem, not breaking the curse. An entire "break the curse" show would not have been good, it would have been incredibly tedious.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Mathius

[Curio]

When she told Rumple, he didn't seem to have considered the idea before. He apparently knew all about the Sorcerer and the hat, but the idea that there was an Author dictating fate was news to him (and didn't he even scoff at it a bit?). But now he's basing his entire plan on this idea

 

I'm still skeptical about whether or not Rumple actually believes in Regina's author hypothesis. (I was about to say theory, but a theory is something that has actually been scientifically tested, so right now, all of this author nonsense is still in the hypothesis stage.) I think he's just using it as a cover-up plan to convince the Queens of Darkness to join his side temporarily and help him with his real plan, which is to turn Emma's heart dark for his own purposes. 

 

But yes, the more episodes we go into 4B, the more this author plot shows its inconsistencies. When you're writing the script for "Poor Unfortunate Soul," how can you write a scene about one villain obtaining her happy ending, while another former villain - who actually helped her obtain that happy ending - still thinks fate is in charge of everything? And how can they say that Emma brought back the happy endings for the heroes when the town is currently in crisis mode? Doesn't that mean the heroes aren't living happily ever after at the moment? There's just too many flaws to count this half season.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

Not all of the 2B episodes were horrible on their own, but it was the main story and character development that was through-the-roof awful. The Miller's Daughter is probably the only exception to the terrible episodes. A few were passable in of themselves, like Lacey and The Outsider, but they definitely didn't save the arc. The overall story was all over the place and didn't know what it wanted to do.

 

With Regina's flip-flopping, the Home Office, and the magic bean craziness all amounting to nothing, there was nothing grounded or important about it. 3A erased all of that and went into a completely different direction. (And rightfully so!) 

Edited March 26, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I was totally expecting Regina to turn against Cora when she realized that Cora had rigged Snow's runaway horse scenario. However, it was mentioned as a throwaway line, and then--nothing. That's when Regina's so-called redemption arc started becoming whiplash-inducing.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

When you're writing the script for "Poor Unfortunate Soul," how can you write a scene about one villain obtaining her happy ending, while another former villain - who actually helped her obtain that happy ending - still thinks fate is in charge of everything?

Since Hook didn't specifically mention the book or the Author, I'm going to cling to the hope that for one thing, he didn't consider Ursula to be the villain in that scenario but rather his victim, and for another, this was more of Hook actually being self-aware enough to realize that he would have failed even in this without Ariel's help because he still went about it like a villain would until Ariel slapped some sense into him. He made a deal with Ursula, essentially using her voice as a hostage, and then resorted to violence (or attempted to) when it didn't go the way he wanted. It only ended up working when he apparently started working more as a hero, trying to help with no expectation of anything in return (since he let Ursula walk away from the cabin without demanding her side of the deal, and she was the one who came back to give him the information) and realizing that there was more to her happy ending than her voice, plus it seems like he'd also learned to cooperate with Ariel (though it would have been nice to see how all that worked out). So he'd recently learned after his angry tirade about wishing he'd plunged the dagger into Rumple's heart and after totally screwing up getting Ursula on their side that as reformed as he'd like to think he is, he still tends to think like a villain, and that could affect his ability to have a happy ending.

 

But it really does seem like logic keeps straining to get out, like the individual episode writers can't help but write plots that make sense, and then they have to throw in the arc stuff about the Author, and it contradicts everything else that was in the episode.

 

I was totally expecting Regina to turn against Cora when she realized that Cora had rigged Snow's runaway horse scenario. However, it was mentioned as a throwaway line, and then--nothing. That's when Regina's so-called redemption arc started becoming whiplash-inducing.

That's the main reason I can't buy Regina's so-called redemption. If she were truly redeemed, that would have been a turning point for her in which she really saw her mother for what she was and realized that both she and Snow were merely pawns in her mother's grander scheme, that her mother was plotting all this long before Snow had a chance to say a word about Daniel. But it still doesn't seem to have occurred to Regina that she was wrong about Snow, that her entire revenge quest was pointless and aimed at the wrong person. The fact that the only thing that in any way turned her away from being Cora's ally was Cora's death and that she still lets Snow grovel about that as though she herself never did any wrong makes Regina's redemption seem rather empty.

[Curio]

Since Hook didn't specifically mention the book or the Author, I'm going to cling to the hope that for one thing, he didn't consider Ursula to be the villain in that scenario but rather his victim, and for another, this was more of Hook actually being self-aware enough to realize that he would have failed even in this without Ariel's help because he still went about it like a villain would until Ariel slapped some sense into him.

 

Didn't Hook start off that conversation saying, "with all this talk of authors and the book?" But I'm going to choose to believe that was just a bad segue by the writers because can we please have one character who doesn't buy into Operation Mongoose? Why hasn't Storybrooke been divided into factions of "believers," "agnostics," and "non-believers?" The writers even gave interviews talking about how they're purposely trying to parallel this author/predestination plot with religion in a way, so why haven't they explored more of that? Not everyone believes in a higher power in real life, so why would everyone in Storybrooke believe this author exists and controls their fate? Just because Regina thinks it's true and the shady Blue Fairy says so? Even though this mysterious figure hasn't been seen in years? If they wanted to actually world-build this author plot more, we'd have actual on screen arguments between the people who believe in this author and the people who think it's a bunch of hogwash. 

Edited March 26, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

The writers even gave interviews talking about how they're purposely trying to parallel this author/predestination plot with religion in a way, so why haven't they explored more of that?

I think I just choked on something. A&E attempting to tackle religion... what could go wrong?

 

 

If they wanted to actually world-build this author plot more, we'd have actual on screen arguments between the people who believe in this author and the people who think it's a bunch of hogwash.

Or got some freaking setup in the first place. This plot was spawned out of Regina saying, "This is book is why I'm suffering". That's Operation Mongoose and the story of 4B is based on - Regina coming up with a theory in order to blame someone else immediately after losing her boyfriend, plotting to kill someone and holding a man in captivity a second time. There were no appearing pages, talk of an Author or Sorcerer before that, nor any hint that there was more to the book than just records.

 

This arc begins and ends with Regina holding someone (or an inanimate object) responsible for her happy ending. The writers may put up a frame of moral debate or psychological reasoning, but in the end it's all about Regina's happiness. That's all this is amounting to. They don't care what other characters think.

Edited March 26, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Didn't Hook start off that conversation saying, "with all this talk of authors and the book?" But I'm going to choose to believe that was just a bad segue by the writers because can we please have one character who doesn't buy into Operation Mongoose?

Well, I could also buy that the talk of authors and the book and whether villains can get happy endings is making him think of his own prospects, not because of any kind of predetermined fate, but because of karma and consequences and because he's realized how difficult it is to truly turn from villain to hero because it's not just about changing actions but about changing his entire mindset.

 

Though, as stupid as I think the entire Operation Mongoose plot is, they have reached the point within the show that the characters would have to start believing that there's something to it, now that the existence of an Author as some kind of feared supernatural figure has been confirmed by the Blue Fairy, that alternate page appeared out of the blue and they've found the room full of blank books. It's still wildly inconsistent and makes zero sense, but from their perspective, it might make sense for a former villain to start being maybe a little worried.

 

The writers even gave interviews talking about how they're purposely trying to parallel this author/predestination plot with religion in a way

Oh dear. Hollywood tackling religion. That can't possibly go horribly wrong at all ...

 

It's funny, fantasy novelist Ben Aaronovitch (the Rivers of London series, which is kind of Harry Potter meets Harry Dresden and is so very much fun, and I think he also used to write for Doctor Who) has been tweeting as he catches up on this show (sadly, not hash-tagging in a way that someone would see if they don't specifically follow him), and I can tell exactly where he is based on his outbursts. He's been talking about how Catch the Idiot Ball is the national sport of Storybrooke.

[Curio]

It's funny, fantasy novelist Ben Aaronovitch (the Rivers of London series, which is kind of Harry Potter meets Harry Dresden and is so very much fun, and I think he also used to write for Doctor Who) has been tweeting as he catches up on this show (sadly, not hash-tagging in a way that someone would see if they don't specifically follow him), and I can tell exactly where he is based on his outbursts.

 

Ha! Thanks for the namedrop. I checked out his twitter and there are some great Once related gems. I think this one is my favorite:

I've never seen a show that was so reliant on people not telling other people things that they really should tell them...

 

I don't know why, but it just makes me feel a lot better when other professional writers take jabs at the show. It's one thing for Adam & Eddy to ignore the fangirls who might make fun of the plot holes, but when actual professionals are calling them out on their mistakes...they should probably take note.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Curio

[Zuleikha]

Not all of the 2B episodes were horrible on their own, but it was the main story and character development that was through-the-roof awful.

I feel like 2B was another example where all of the points that they wanted to hit to lead up to the Neverland twist made sense in outline form but they were just mind bogglingly, bewilderingly awful in execution. I will never understand why they couldn't carry the Cora arc through the end of 2B and just make it take longer for Cora to isolate and win over Regina. Or, if Barbara Hershey was only available for a limited amount of episodes, why they couldn't actually do something with the idea of Snow going dark as a result of the specific way she manipulated Regina into killing Cora. With the perspective of being both a Regina fan and two seasons later, I am grateful that they got the Regina backslide/Cora conflict out of the way in 2B so that she could have steady growth afterwards, though.

 

Or got some freaking setup in the first place. This plot was spawned out of Regina saying, "This is book is why I'm suffering".

It seems like it would have been so easy, too. They really did put all the concepts in place to set up the plot, but they didn't do anything to support Regina's leap to the idea of the Author. Why not have Regina's conversation with Henry just be about the general concept that villains don't get happy endings/she's afraid that she's still considered a villain and have Henry suggest the idea that the book must have an Author and maybe the Author can change things for her? Then part 1 of Operation Mongoose could be simply confirming whether an Author even exists, which Henry could end up accomplishing through his time in Gold's shop (thus justifying that whole plotline's existence). The writing fails in this show really don't seem that hard to fix most of the time (but I'm still enjoying it, though! I critique because I love)

[stealinghome]

I hear some people complaining that the curse never should have been broken because it's what made the show good, but that isn't true at all. Bringing in magic at the end was the problem, not breaking the curse.

Preach!!!! The problem was never breaking the curse. It was a) bringing magic back and b) deciding to sacrifice character for PLOT PLOT PLOT!

 

Not all of the 2B episodes were horrible on their own, but it was the main story and character development that was through-the-roof awful. The Miller's Daughter is probably the only exception to the terrible episodes. A few were passable in of themselves, like Lacey and The Outsider, but they definitely didn't save the arc. The overall story was all over the place and didn't know what it wanted to do.

 

With Regina's flip-flopping, the Home Office, and the magic bean craziness all amounting to nothing, there was nothing grounded or important about it. 3A erased all of that and went into a completely different direction. (And rightfully so!) 

The episode where Regina inexplicably allies with the Cora who just tried to frame her aside (3x11?), I actually think 2B is okay up through Miller's Daughter--it's not good, but it's not horrible. It's miles better than what came after. It's why I would take 2B over 3B and 4B (which pains me to say, you have no idea)--if you just jump from Miller's Daughter to 2x21, the half-season is fine. Whereas 3B and 4B are pretty much sucktastic from start to finish.

 

Also, ITA that Cora should have been stretched to fill all of 2B. Greg and Tamara were so useless--just have everyone have a big climactic battle with Cora in 2x22 and then, in the last 5 minutes, while everyone's relaxing, have The Shadow swoop in and kidnap Henry, leading to Neverland. That's about the level of setup Greg and Tamara provided anyway, so....

[KingOfHearts]

 

The episode where Regina inexplicably allies with the Cora who just tried to frame her aside (3x11?)

That was In the Name of the Brother, not The Outsider. :)

 

 

I actually think 2B is okay up through Miller's Daughter--it's not good, but it's not horrible.

The only episodes I really couldn't didn't care for were Tiny, Manhattan and Cricket Game. The others I thought were passable and I can still enjoy watching.

[Camera One]

I agree the bringing of magic to Storybrooke was the biggest mistake of the Season 1 finale.  I personally wouldn't have minded another season of people in Cursed personalities if one character after another gained their memories and began an underground movement led by Emma and Henry against Regina, but there was also a lot of potential to be mined from breaking the Curse outright like they did.  It's just that they haven't mined one tenth of that potential.  

 

I actually do enjoy 2A overall, but to me, the character development aspect was dropped pretty early on.  It was a nice idea to have Emma and a Snow with full memories going to the Enchanted Forest, but the good stuff already peaked at the end of "Lady of the Lake" in the burned out nursery.  After that, the Princesses basically trekked from one spot to another with little to no meaningful interaction, which was a huge letdown and a huge loss of potential (akin to 3A with the Snow/Emma/Charming stuff peaking at the end of "Lost Girl" and then nothing for the parent/daughter relationship).  In 2A, the Storybrooke stuff was weaker.  There was so much potential for world-building with Charming learning to lead the town without Snow, establishing a system, Regina facing the wrath of the common folk, etc.  There was some bonding with Henry, but it barely scratched the surface.  

 

2B did nobody any favors.  Regina became a cardboard side-kick to Cora, Henry became the irritating cheerleader, Snow and Charming got the random pointless C Plots that led nowhere, Rumple got his son back but no interaction with him, Neal got to Storybrooke and stood in the background, Belle became Lacey which was never acknowledged afterwards, etc.  

[tennisgurl]

2B remains a low point in the show. Just so much lame happened all at once. It was the height of my annoyance with Regina, and the shows weird morality in general, and those were the dark days when I couldn't stand Hook and hated the idea of him and Emma! Dark days indeed. 

[FurryFury]

I actually consider 4B to be on par with 2B so far, if not worse (actually, probably worse). I'm pretty sure that at this time the show won't even manage to create a diamond in the rough a la "The Miller's Daughter". True, I was closer to quitting the show around the time of 2B finale that I am now... but not by much, and even then, mostly because of Neal (I won't tell how much I despised Neal/Emma romance because it's been discussed to death back on TWOP and here). There was a lot of idiotic stuff, too, but Cora was a much better villain than any of the QoD (or, really, current Rumple who is ruined by his association with the Author plot), Emma wasn't sacrificed on the altar of Regina with the idiotic queerbaity scenes and Snowing weren't ruined as completely as they are now (although it was the origin of the famous dark spot storyline). And as much as I disliked the Home Office storyline, it still made much more sense than the Author and the book (anything makes more sense than this travesty!) So unless the show surprises me in a good way in the remaining episodes, 4B will be the strongest contender for the worst half-season arc the show has ever done.

[Curio]

I personally wouldn't have minded another season of people in Cursed personalities if one character after another gained their memories and began an underground movement led by Emma and Henry against Regina

I don't know if I could have handled yet another season of people with their cursed personalities, but I wanted to see a longer period of time where people remembered their real Enchanted Forest personalities while there still wasn't any magic in Storybrooke for Regina to fall back on. That way, she could have been knocked down a few pegs and actually redeemed a bit more before sliding back to being evil in 2B. I would have liked to see 2A Storybrooke be completely magic free, while Rumple secretly devised a way to bring magic back for 2B when Emma and Snow returned from the Enchanted Forest; thus, bringing the magic with them. That would have introduced the itch for Regina to use magic again after a half season without using magic, which would have made her backslide more realistic when her mom returned.

 

I actually consider 4B to be on par with 2B so far, if not worse (actually, probably worse).

 

I'd have to place 4B slightly above 2B right now, but I agree that they're both looking pretty bad. I know it's unfair to judge an arc before it has even finished, but 4B is not off to a good start. "Poor Unfortunate Soul" helped erase some of the awfulness of the episodes before it, but we'll see if they can keep the momentum going. The more we delve into this author plot, the worse this plot is going to get, I fear.

[RadioGirl27]

I'd have to place 4B slightly above 2B right now, but I agree that they're both looking pretty bad. I know it's unfair to judge an arc before it has even finished, but 4B is not off to a good start. "Poor Unfortunate Soul" helped erase some of the awfulness of the episodes before it, but we'll see if they can keep the momentum going. The more we delve into this author plot, the worse this plot is going to get, I fear.

I prefer to wait to decide which one is worse until the season is over, but at this point it's pretty close between the two. 

 

It's funny, fantasy novelist Ben Aaronovitch (the Rivers of London series, which is kind of Harry Potter meets Harry Dresden and is so very much fun, and I think he also used to write for Doctor Who) has been tweeting as he catches up on this show (sadly, not hash-tagging in a way that someone would see if they don't specifically follow him), and I can tell exactly where he is based on his outbursts. He's been talking about how Catch the Idiot Ball is the national sport of Storybrooke.

Lol, I've been reading some of his tweets, and I love this one (I could have written it myself):

 

I really really really want to slap Robin - he's a disgrace to the legend.

[FurryFury]

Slap? I want to kill him, disintegrate him and destroy his soul and everyone's memories of him. 

[Curio]

Well, that escalated quickly...