A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Camera One]

(Memoryless Emma and Henry should have went to Oz. Just saying.)

 

I wish that could have happened.  Emma and Henry in Oz would have been great fun.

 

If they were afraid of having fantasy flashbacks in the Enchanted Forset and fantasy current-day in Oz with Emma/Henry, then another alternative could have been to set the Missing Year in Oz for the most part.

 

In the 4B premiere, the Storybrooke people would have poofed back into the Enchanted Forest as we saw.  Then the Wizard could have landed in his balloon telling them of the Land of Oz which could reach the Land Without Magic, and pleading for them to go to Oz to save the people being terrorized by a Wicked Witch.  

 

Snow and Charming could start an expedition to go to Oz, so they could get back to Emma and to help the Ozians, and then others like Regina and Granny and the Dwarves would insist on coming along.  They could have met Zelena in Oz, and we could have found out her backstory that way, with cameos from Glinda, the Munchkins, and visits to iconic places like the Poppy Fields and the Emerald City.  They could even do their usual of having the characters meet their long-lost relatives in Oz, or they could have the Wizard work for Zelena to trick them into coming to Oz, if they insisted on keeping the idiotic Zelena-is-Regina's-Sister plot, which served no purpose anyway.  Even Robin Hood could have come along to Oz since he owed a great debt to everyone, and he could have grown closer to Regina on the journey.

 

Neal and Belle could still have gone off on their own to resurrect the Dark One, if all other things must be kept the same.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Adam posted some dialog cut from 4x11:

https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/546945914951053312

 

 

Elsa: "Emma -- thank you. For everything. If it weren't for you -- I'd still be stuck in an urn in a closet thirty years ago."

Emma: "When you say it out loud --"

 

So they had to cut Elsa/Emma dialog for more close-ups of Regina's sad face?

[Curio]

Adam posted some dialog cut from 4x11:

https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/546945914951053312

So they had to cut Elsa/Emma dialog for more close-ups of Regina's sad face?

Is that supposed to be a gay joke? I'm not being snarky, I legitimately don't know with these writers.

 

Oh, and Elsa? You should actually be thanking Hook for taking your urn out to begin with...

[Serena]

Is that supposed to be a gay joke? I'm not being snarky, I legitimately don't know with these writers.

That made me WTF. Was Elsa's urn in a closet? I thought she was just on a table, but even if she was in a closet, how would she even know that?

 

The writers need to stop with those kinds of jokes to tease the fans and actually bring back the one queer character they have. Those kinds of lines is just adding insult to injury, it's not any actual meaningful representation to anyone with sense.

[Shanna Marie]

Was Elsa's urn in a closet? I thought she was just on a table, but even if she was in a closet, how would she even know that?

I thought it was more of a cupboard or cabinet. And she wouldn't have known it, unless they told her. Not that we got to see the scene in which she learned how she got to Storybrooke because all interesting or important stuff has to take place offscreen.

[Souris]

The SQ fans certainly took it as a gay reference. But the line was incorrect anyway, like Curio said. She should have been thanking Hook, who's the one who pulled the urn out of a cabinet. So, it was queerbaiting AND incorrect.

[Camera One]

I just watched three more in a row with my visiting friend.  I always say this when I watch marathon, but so little time passes by between one episode and the next.  In "The Apprentice", Emma referenced what Hook said "last night" about living and surviving; "Breaking Glass" started with everyone sitting around files as in "The Apprentice" and Will still in the slammer, and "Family Business" began with the video tape with the Snow Queen.  It seems to flow more, though each episode had elements I dreaded to see again.

 

For some reason, I was just wracking my brain when I started "Breaking Glass" as to which Arendelle flashback that was about, and then I remembered it was about Emma and Lily.  The episode wasn't good, but I think Jennifer Morrison really did as much as she could have with it.  I swear, every episode one of the Frozen sisters always goes, "Well, as my sister said/this is just like what my sister did/etc/etc" as they impart a lesson of the week to one of our regular characters.  I had forgotten they drew a parallel between Anna seeking Elsa in the Ice Palace, and Emma seeking to be Regina's friend in the Vault.  

 

Even after watching the season, I still don't get that stuff about Rumple wanting something from the Snow Queen and wanting to strike a deal.  Now that I've watched the season, I know it's that she knew the "final ingredient" of getting the heart of the person who knew you before you were the Dark One, but I don't get how the Snow Queen would even know that.  Was Rumple supposed to have gained the powers of everyone in the Hat after the ceremony, in addition to no longer being ruled by the Dagger?  Would a non-Dark One use the Hat to attain more powers, or what?  

 

The Anna-turning-to-the-Dark-Side because she seriously considered killing Rumple in "The Apprentice" for a split second reminded me of Snow White getting a dark-spot in her heart because she killed Cora.  Clearly, the writers' moral relativism is still alive and strong.  

 

As "fun" as it was to see Evil Belle in the Mirror, the whole "Family Business" episode made the character seem shady as hell, and I didn't appreciate that.  How did the Stone Trolls already know what she wanted before she even said anything?  They can read minds?  So Ingrid being freed from the urn made the Stone Trolls' promise to keep the secret null and void?  Why did they suddenly reveal all to Anna?  

 

When Rumple was going on and on to Anna about how he knows how to use Love as a Weapon, I kept thinking about how extreme hate can defeat extreme love.  Why would Rumple know how to use love as a weapon when he doesn't even understand true love?  

Edited December 24, 2014 by Camera One

[Camera One]

We also watched "The Snow Queen" and "Smash the Mirror"... can't believe we got through 6 episodes today.  Watching them in a row, this season actually feels more Emma-heavy.  We got stuff for Emma herself in Ep 2 and 3, Emma/Hook in Ep 4, Emma/Regina in Ep 5 (ugh but still Emma), Emma/Dealing with Magic in Ep 6,7,8.  It kinda showed everyone's importance to the writers at the end of "Smash the Mirror"... Emma coming out of the Manor with Frozen (priority #1 for 4A), then Hook comes over (priority #2) and then the peanut gallery arrives (Snow, Charming and Henry).

 

The Robin/Regina and Operation Mongoose material is quite repetitive, and Robin's actions seem even more nonsensical when watched in a row.  I liked Will on Wonderland, but what a drag to have him on this show (mainly when you want to knock your head against the wall for all the conversations that characters should have had, but never got).  When Regina said Robin must find a way to fall in love with Marion again, why didn't Regina offer the tough solution of erasing his memory of meeting Regina?  Then, he could give Marion a True Love's Kiss, and problem solved.  

 

I think "Smash the Mirror" could have been a good episode if all the Regina/Robin/Will material was removed.  I wonder if that would have been enough to pare it down to an hour.  Finding the extra page actually had no bearing on the rest of 4A so it wasn't even necessary.  They could also have cut out the Snow Queen projecting herself to try to stop Emma.  The flashback stuff with Anna and Elsa sneaking around were fun, so it would have been a shame to lose some of that, though (I am guessing the scene where Elsa and Anna were en route to sneaking back to the dungeons was added).  

 

Out of all the deleted scenes we got in 4A, I think Snow with Elsa was the one that *really* should have been on the show.  The added road conversation with Snow and Regina was still annoying with the "I was such a brat" and "I also slept with a married man" hero-villain-equalizer garbage, but in hindsight, Snow's reaction to the whole Blame-It-On-The-Author was the only sane reaction we got from a character, when she pointed out Regina's bad decisions resulted in her not having a happy ending.  So it's like the writers know it's not feasible, yet they press on.  Regina actually said the book determined fates and "Free will be damned"... huh?  Is she saying she didn't make any of the decisions she did in the lead-up to the Curse?  

 

Knowing how unimportant the Ribbons turned out to be really reduced the power of the Snow Queen trading her secret for those ribbons.  If it's just meant as a time-waster, it should have been cut out of the storyline.  If anything, maybe Gerda could have gotten the ribbons back from Rumple and it could have been in an envelope inside the Message-in-a-Bottle, and *that* could have been the straw to melt Ingrid's heart.  

 

Overall, though, the Frozen stuff does have some rewatch value.  And I actually like the Snow Queen's scenes in the earlier episodes a bit more now that I have seen her full backstory... I remember being unimpressed with her character due to the vagueness in the first half of 4A.

 

I think my friend mostly enjoyed the episodes, though she couldn't remember who Ashley was, nor could she remember how Elsa even came to Storybrooke.  She commented on the Snow Queen's inappropriate attire. She said Snow was a failure parent and she laughed at a lot of Regina's quips.  She guessed Anna would become The Snow Queen in "The Apprentice", and in "Breaking Glass", she thought Lily was going to grow up into the Snow Queen.  

Edited December 24, 2014 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I finished the remaining three episodes of 4B with my friend.  I think I've been brainwashed since by the end of the last episode, I almost accepted the horrible Author plot.  It was just from the repetition.  I swear, every episode, someone or other explains Operation Mongoose (and the Fake Dagger/Hat stuff).  On a marathon, it's like that stuff is drilled into your brain since it's just repeated over and over again.  

 

The "Frozen" stuff was still enjoyable the second time around.  Though my friend did comment why didn't everyone take out their hearts before the Shattered Sight Curse.  And why Emma and Elsa didn't try to put the protection spell back around the crypt after getting their ribbons cut.  

 

Why were Granny and the Dwarves out and about in the streets?  They were responsible for telling everyone to lock themselves up, and yet they didn't?  It was kind of ridiculous.

 

In "A Tale of Two Sisters", Elsa gives the necklace to Anna and calls it "something new" to go with the old wedding dress.  It was only in "Fall" that Elsa says she found the necklace among their mother's things, and since it was "new to them", she used it as something new.  That seemed awfully clunky.  Did the writers know all along that necklace would be the Wishing Star?  My friend also wondered why they couldn't just wish the Curse away.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Regina's also the most powerful Light Magic user in all the realms. Why didn't Rumple even consider hatting Regina? 

 

Would Hatting Emma have been enough to cleave himself from the Dagger?  Rumple's idea to Hat all the Fairies came out of nowhere.  Are we supposed to believe that would have been enough, even though the Fairies can't do anything without fairy dust?  Why not Hat Emma, then Hat Regina, then Hat the Fairies, crush Hook's heart into the dust, and then Hat Ingrid, blame her for killing everyone and call it a day?  Maybe take everyone's memory just for good measure.  Then, there's nobody else to oppose his plan.  

Edited December 27, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Regina's also the most powerful Light Magic user in all the realms. Why didn't Rumple even consider hatting Regina?

Because Regina knows Rumple too well. She can escape him easily. She'd smell the trap from a mile way. The fairies and Emma aren't as clever when it comes to magic or Rumple. They're much easier targets.

 

Basically, Rumple knows going against Regina is always a bad idea.

Edited December 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

This cartoon about OUAT is both funny and depressing, because it's true.

[KingOfHearts]

 

This cartoon about OUAT is both funny and depressing, because it's true.

3B was the point where they really started just tossing random characters in just as "toys". You could say Neverland was like that, but it was still much more intertwined with the existing characters than Oz or Frozen. They didn't sacrifice precious cast screen time to show it off. Up until 3B, it still felt like an ensemble for the most part. The main plot was still the main focus, not sidelined to highlight the Franchise of the Week. There's a major noticeable drop in quality between Going Home and New York City Serenade.

 

Every time I watch S1, where it was all about the core characters, I literally feel like I'm watching a completely different show. Now and then just don't compute at all, and that's not because the status quo has changed very dramatically.

Edited December 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

3B was the point where they really started just tossing random characters in just as "toys". You could say Neverland was like that, but it was still much more intertwined with the existing characters than Oz or Frozen. They didn't sacrifice precious cast screen time to show it off. Up until 3B, it still felt like an ensemble for the most part. The main plot was still the main focus, not sidelined to highlight the Franchise of the Week. There's a major noticeable drop in quality between Going Home and New York City Serenade.

Every time I watch S1, where it was all about the core characters, I literally feel like I'm watching a completely different show. Now and then just don't compute at all, and that's not because the status quo has changed very dramatically.

This, this, THIS. I am always baffled by complaints from some that 3A didn't do enough world-building for Neverland or focus on iconic literary relationships between Pan and Tink, Pan and Hook, Pan and the Darlings, etc. Did these people WANT 3A to be like 3B and 4A (and undoubtedly 4B) where the "new toys" eat up focus and screentime from the core cast? All that stuff is backstory material, and yeah I would have liked some more of it, but I think the focus in Neverland was where it belonged: the core cast learning the value of teamwork and using it to save Henry, which was much needed after how Season 2 divided them all. Edited December 29, 2014 by Mathius

[Camera One]

To me, it's not an either/or.  More world-building for Neverland does not have to mean less focus on the main cast.  They could have visited more interesting iconic places or encountered some of those literary characters/shiny toys as they pursued their quest, if those shiny toys helped to reveal their inner emotions and struggle.  

 

3A was certainly better than 2B and 3B but there were definite negatives that affected my enjoyment upon rewatch in addition to the positives.  I agree one of the positives of 3A was seeing the main characters work together towards a common goal and their teamwork.  But there was a huge amount of room for improvement even in that regards.  There was no depth to Charming possibly dying and Snow/Charming facing the possibility of having to live in Neverland forever, and the Emma connection was completely ignored for the sake of the triangle.  There was no actual exploration of the Neal/Rumple relationship while they were stuck together.  Characters they did include like Wendy could have been used better.  One of the characters I liked the most in 3A was Ariel, and she was a shiny new toy.

[KingOfHearts]

I was watching 1x02 and came across something interesting. When Regina is flipping through the pages of the storybook, the story of Snow White and Rose-Red from Grimm's is on the page right after Snowing's wedding and immediately before the events of the curse. Just found that to be an odd placement.

 

For those who don't know, Snow White (a completely different one) and Rose Red is a story about two sisters who encounter a unkindly dwarf. Maybe Snow and Red on OUAT are a reference?

Edited January 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[myril]

I was watching 1x02 and came across something interesting. When Regina is flipping through the pages of the storybook, the story of Snow White and Rose-Red from Grimm's is on the page right after Snowing's wedding and immediately before the events of the curse. Just found that to be an odd placement.

 

For those who don't know, Snow White (a completely different one) and Rose Red is a story about two sisters who encounter a unkindly dwarf. Maybe Snow and Red on OUAT are a reference?

 

I am at the point, that I would like to give the writers credit for some thought, but highly doubt it was anything but the prop department using a story they liked or found fitting to fill the side. I've seen some speculation back then, as there was some speculation and fan theories about the use of the Story of the Golden Bird in the Storybook, and there is again some now that the latter has shown up again on the alternate page of Outlawqueen's happy ending. Think it means nothing. At best it's a shout-out.

Edited January 6, 2015 by katusch

[Camera One]

Oz is in the Storybook, and I'm curious what story was in there.  If Dorothy was in it, then Zelena should have been in it as well, given what we saw.  Which would have contained the story of the pendant.  I know the Book was MIA for most of 3B but they never mentioned using it to find out more about Zelena.  And technically, Henry having read that story would have known Zelena was Regina's sister.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm going to summarize what I think are the biggest problems Once has.

 

- Lack of good worldbuilding. Setting up rules and mythology is a major concern for fantasy writing. It sets the board. This show leaves many of us guessing how and why things work the way they work. I'm all for leaving some elements up to the imagination, but a lot of glaring plot holes have been created... which leads me to my next point.

- Continuity issues. Whether its breaking the rules of magic or giving characters lobotomies, Once just doesn't know what it wants to do. What happens is what the writers feel like writing that day. No rules apply.

- Character reactions to Regina. Doesn't sound like a problem that drags the whole show down on paper, but you ask any forum member here and they'll tell you why it really is. Regina is where good characterization goes to die. She herself is not the issue, but rather everything that revolves around her. She's the black hole.

- Regina's redemption arc. Again, it may not seem like something that affects Once has a whole, but it does. When we spend several minutes watching her cry or getting propped up, it eats away precious screen time for everything else. Her flip-flopping has caused ratings to dive and her arc has assassinated every character that has crossed its path. 

- Lack of consequences. This is a big one for me right now. Every Big Bad dies and we're back drinking at Granny's. Couples break up then proceed to eat cheeseburgers together a few hours later. Gives very little reason to watch.

- Writer bias. The showrunners choose to only focus on what they think is "fun", meaning some characters are sidelined or dropped in favor of the latest toy. Morality, and even the laws of physics, are twisted in favor of exalting certain characters or storylines.

- Twisted morality. Killing Pan, Black Knights or Regina is okie dokie, but killing Cora in self-defense is murder. Telling a secret justifies mass murdering villages. Welcome to the Twilight Zone.

- Repetition. This show rarely covers new ground. Every arc now ends the same, and sometimes we have the same scene over and over just with slightly different dialog... but only when the stars align, of course.

- Emma's relationship with her parents. This should be a focal point of the show - the meat of everything it stands for. The Pilot introduced this almost immediately, for crying out loud. It's the elephant in the room that has sat there for a very, very long time.

- Too much magic and deus ex machinas. Magic is relied on waaay too much. It's too often used as an escape device with plot contrivances galore. There should at least be stricter rules instead of simply pulling a rescue out of a hat. There's no logic in it at all. Why do we need 10 episodes of buildup when a magic gauntlet is just going poof out of nowhere?

 

Feel free to add your own points of interest!

Edited January 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

- Twisted morality. Killing Pan, Black Knights or Regina is okie dokie, but killing Cora in self-defense is murder. Telling a secret justifies mass murdering villages. Welcome to the Twilight Zone.

 

Saving someone's life is a terrible thing because it makes Regina unhappy.

A married man pursuing a piece of tail is also okay and gets Snow's stamp of approval.  Didn't Snow look horrified when she thought Henry's father was a married man?  I don't remember, don't wanna go back and watch it.

 

Belle: Her relationship with Rumple is all kinds of fucked up.  If Belle was my friend, I would make sure she has an intervention.  I'll never understand it.  

[Curio]

I'm going to summarize what I think are the biggest problems Once has.

 

I wanted to quote your entire post, KingOfHearts, because you seriously hit everything on the head. I don't know how much I can add to your list since most of the issues with the show can fall into one of your categories, but I'll add just one more:

 

- Important scenes always seem to happen off screen. This could probably fall under Writer Bias, but the writers time and time again set up really good dramatic moments, only to never actually follow up with them. Or if they do follow up, the real drama happens off screen. Rumple giving Belle the fake dagger and lying to her for so long should have been an ongoing, tension-filled relationship all throughout 4A. What do we get? A random episode where we get a pointless Belle flashback and 2 minutes of actual interesting drama with dark-mirror-Belle. But then she promptly falls asleep for like the next 5 episodes and the issue isn't brought up again until the finale. Where's the drama in that? Why couldn't Belle have been in Gold's shop when Hook was leaving the message? Why did she have to solve everything at literally the last second? Why didn't the audience get to see Belle using the gauntlet or see her connect the dots that Rumple has been lying this whole time?

 

It always comes down to plot > characterization. If the writers truly cared about these characters, we would have seen Belle put on the gauntlet and her facial reaction when she realizes the fake dagger she's had all season wasn't the real Dark One dagger. But the writers like their plot more, so we only see the exact moment Belle shows up to stop Rumple.

 

Another example of plot > characterization: Hook's nonexistent flashback about how he outran Zelena's curse and got the bean to save Emma. If the writers cared about Hook's characterization, we would have seen a flashback about how Hook received the bird's message to go save Emma, his facial reaction when he realizes he might see Emma again after a year of separation, and his crazy decision to ditch his crew and sail off by himself. Instead, a potential multiple-episodes-long arc is summed up in 20 seconds by Hook with a quick monologue because the writers needed to set up their next plot for 4A.

 

You could probably have an entire 22-episode season of off-screen scenes that have been brushed over by the writers.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

You could probably have an entire 22-episode season of off-screen scenes that have been brushed over by the writers.

Didn't Lost do an entire web series of Offscreenville scenes? That would be a very neat thing to have during hiatus. Just some little clips from secondary characters or skipped moments like Emma and Hook's reconciliation concerning his heart, similarly to the Going Home flashbacks. I'd love that.

Edited January 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Faemonic]

It always comes down to plot > characterization (...) If the writers cared about Hook's characterization, we would have seen a flashback about how Hook received the bird's message to go save Emma, his facial reaction when he realizes he might see Emma again after a year of separation, and his crazy decision to ditch his crew and sail off by himself. 

The thing is, I support the notion that in the creative process, the plot does determine the character...because, at least, I think it worked really really really well in Season 2A with Hook (for one example.) The plot goeth that Hook must get to Storybrooke. He is absolutely outclassed by everybody else who would rather he not be part of the main story. The writers could have made him a magic Neverland pirate with a magic sword or a magic piece of parchment that allows him to live chat with the Darling Hipster Hipster Darlings for Info Ex Machina, but instead they wrote him as resourceful with easily compromised moral standards. That made both a compelling character and a complex plot. Betrayal! Standoffs! MacGuffins!

 

Now, though, Belle is going "La la la" at the evil mirror and all happy and packing one moment, and then suddenly she rescues Hook, Emma, and Snow (what are those last two even doing there??)

 

In the sense of events leading to more events, that's not even a broken plot-character continuum, that is a broken plot.

 

a potential multiple-episodes-long arc is summed up in 20 seconds by Hook with a quick monologue because the writers needed to set up their next plot for 4A.

 

To this here list, I'd like to add:

 

Exposition. Isn't "show, don't tell" the first rule of television and movie writing? Even in prose writing exposition is discouraged, but that's because the rule began in visual storytelling media like TV...what gives?

[The Cake is a Pie]

There was a point when they were sacrificing characterization for plot, but now I think they've blown straight past that and are sacrificing plot in favor of major event. Case in point, the Belle/Rumple showdown. They set up all those great possible plot points along the way... the fake dagger, Henry working in the shop, Hook's voicemail, Belle knowing Anna, even Belle always "sleeping"... and do they use any of those hints that they have already shown to us onscreen to show the audience how Belle was able to connect it all together and figure out what Rumple was doing? No. They just skip over what could have been carefully placed plotting straight to oh, screw it all, BAM! random gauntlet! BELLE BANISH. The End.

[KingOfHearts]

 

There was a point when they were sacrificing characterization for plot, but now I think they've blown straight past that and are sacrificing plot in favor of major event.

The story of 3B's life. I'd venture to say that the only reason Zelena's plot was to change time was because A&E wanted a Back to the Future special. There were a thousand other, more interesting, ways she could have gotten what she wanted. Even the witch herself was handled poorly. I imagine the writers camp went something like, "Wouldn't it be cool if the Evil Queen had a rivalry with the Wicked Witch of the West? Let's make them long lost half-sisters to make it spicier!" To get to Wicked vs. Evil, they had to bulldoze over everything else, including The Missing Year and Oz. They did all this buildup about Emma accepting herself and saving the day, then Regina pulls light magic out at the last second so her "redemption" could climax.

 

For these writers, its all destination and no journey. They're like kids who want to go straight into dessert.

[queenbee]

Another issue is the lack of time passing: In having such a short period of time pass, a lot of character decisions do not make sense. For example, Regina supposedly missed her son terribly for a whole year. She gets him back and is overjoyed. But then, within only a few days of her true love's kiss breaking the memory spell, she is crying over the end of her two-day relationship with her boyfriend, not answering his calls, and not even having taken the time to move him back into her house. I thought it was well-established that Regina considers herself to be the custodial parent! Now, if Regina and Henry had been reunited for months or never separated, I would find it perfectly acceptable for a parent to want some time to herself and leave her son for a short while with suitable caregivers. But having only just been reunited? I think we were supposed to take away "Oh, poor Regina, her feelings for Robin must be so strong" but what I take away is "Why doesn't Regina want to be with her son after just being reunited him?"

 

In my view, this is not the only characterization made strange due to lack of time passing. It's though the plot knows that only days are passing, but the characters think that months are passing.

[KingOfHearts]

 

And the really frustrating thing is, once upon a time (heh), Snow did it, too, as Mary Margaret. Somewhere within her, she knows how to do it, so her seemingly giving up now is just like, wtf?

Their cursed personalities totally vanished into thin air, and that's frustrating. It's like the character development in S1 with MM, David, etc. was all for nothing. None of the Storybrooke events mattered. When the curse broke, it shouldn't been just the fairy tale characters realizing who they were, but the cursed characters realizing too. (We are both.) Even though who they were in S1 was fake, what happened then was real. All that was shoved under the table so A&E could go on their fantasy high, but I feel like they dropped one of the show's best areas.

 

We never got to explore Mary Margaret realizing she was Emma's mom or even Charming feeling bad about the whole Kathryn deal. I wish we could have seen Kathryn after the curse for some closure. S1 just needed more closure, period. There is so little continuity with the first season and the rest of the show it's not even funny.

Edited January 8, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[retrograde]

Another issue is the lack of time passing

Word. I think they also miss out on a lot of opportunities because of this. It is never anyone's birthday (except in the pilot), it is never Christmas, non-major-plot-point things don't get to happen or be happening in Storybrooke. 

 

In my dream version of the show, about every second episode would not be about that season's big plot, but more self-contained within the episode -- Emma solving a crime in the town, Snow being the actual mayor, people have actual relationship plots that are unrelated to the season arc. So, say, the Frozen plot would still have been the same, just stretched across a full season, and with more stand-alone eps in between. A&E promised that part of the Frozen arc was just having the characters as themselves in Storybrooke and seeing what happened -- how they interacted with other OuaT characters, etc. I actually wish we had seen that -- Elsa helping Emma on regular cases, dealing with the modern world (beyond a few throwaway lines), Anna and Kristoff actually spending time in the town. 

Edited January 8, 2015 by retrograde

[KingOfHearts]

I love watching random episodes and moments from the show's past for science.

So, upon rewatching Zelena's big scene with Regina in Witch Hunt, there's a few problems that were similar to the ones with the Ingrid/Rumple conversation in Rocky Road. The dialog tried to sound mysterious without being backed by much groundwork in retrospect. Zelena told Regina about how Oz was such a horrible place to grow up in and how life was hard for her, blah blah blah. This wasn't really the case at all, and that makes Zelena look ridiculously petty, which ruins the scene's intimidating tone.

Zelena seemed so ominous at first. Once you see what she was really after, she becomes a very unimpressive villain very quickly. The writing is very good about promising wonderful execution (like the first few episodes of every single arc since 3A), then always falls flat along the way.

Edited January 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

Yes, that is totally the way things go with every single arc. Great setup, promising at the beginning, then it starts to fall apart in the middle and the climax sucks. They say they plan out the season at the beginning, but I wonder how detailed that is. It's probably just broad strokes, or they know they want to get from Point A to Point D, but they don't exactly figure out the route, so they have to half-ass it. Plus, I think they have no concept of pacing, so they end up rushing at the end.

[KAOS Agent]

You know why the Season 3 finale worked? Because it involved a story that had already been written with a plot that had been done many times before (Back to the Future among others) and was pretty well self contained within one episode. They didn't have time to build something up that they weren't going to payoff since all of the stuff outside of Emma/Hook and the Marian/Frozen reveal at the end didn't involve anything new.

 

It's when they have to cover 11 episodes with an overarching plot that they fail. I think it does come down to being distracted by shiny new toys. Or maybe it's because they feel like they have to pretend like there is a storyline for certain characters, so they use them early in the season for filler and then drop them completely since they were only created in the first place to make it seem like a character has a story. Look at Henry in Season 4A. He started with these feelings of wanting his New York memories back and unhappiness after his mother rejected him to go mope, worked for Rumpel and then did nothing but act as exposition about Operation Idiocy every other episode in case the audience missed the idea that the author made bad things happen to Regina. It's like they gave him something to do in the beginning just so they could say he had a story. Is Henry magically fixed now? He doesn't miss his friends? Or his normal life? What was the point of Henry working at the shop? He did exactly nothing there to further any of the plots going on in 4A. There were plenty of theories that Henry would find the hat or overhear a Rumpel/Hook conversation. But nope, he was just there to do a very poor job of sweeping and give the visual of the Apprentice. Damn is this show disappointing sometimes.

Edited January 9, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[daxx]

Very interesting post on tumblr about the concept of happy endings, the OUAT version.

http://winger-hawk.com/post/107607995823/okay-i-just-cant-make-it-make-sense-either

Small blurb,

"From the writers’ perspective: Happy Endings are relative. As I said in my previous ask, that’s what they began talking about during one interview. Emma, however, believes that Happy Endings are absolute. In Emma’s perspective, Happy Ending = love and family. From the writers’ perspective, Happy Ending = whatever makes the person happy"

Edited January 9, 2015 by daxx

[YaddaYadda]

In Emma’s perspective, Happy Ending = love and family. From the writers’ perspective, Happy Ending = whatever makes the person happy"

 

That makes Regina look even crazier.  Her initial happy ending was to take everyone's happy endings away which for 28 years worked really well for her until it didn't.  Then it was being with Henry.  And now her happy ending is being with Robin.

 

She doesn't look fickle at all.  If whatever makes a person happy is her happy ending then changing one's mind over and over again...or I guess having everything in the world constitutes a happy ending.  

[KAOS Agent]

That's where the happy ending idea runs counter to what this show is supposedly about. Regina's initial idea about what would make her happy was destroying everyone else's happiness. If everyone is entitled to a happy ending and a happy ending = whatever makes you happy, how does that work exactly?

[Shanna Marie]

I may take part of that list of issues to the writers thread because my thoughts there are more about writing mechanics rather than a look at the big picture of the show. But then there's this:

Another issue is the lack of time passing: In having such a short period of time pass, a lot of character decisions do not make sense.

The weird thing about this is that they seem to want to have it both ways. They draw attention to the timeline by making it clear that little to no time is passing between episodes. Most episodes end with a kind of cliffhanger, then obviously pick up in the new episode the same day or maybe the next day, with references to "yesterday." All this seems to be designed to make everything more urgent -- there's no chance for down time because there's a huge crisis they must face immediately, and if they do get a spare moment, it's worthy of talking about. The crisis is immediate -- coming today, not days or weeks away. It creates a fast pace full of plot, plot, plot. But then at the same time they seem to want us to forget the timeline and think that time is passing for the characters at the same rate it is for us. In Storybrooke time, I'd guess that barely a month has passed from Emma's return at the start of 3B and the end of 4A (before the six weeks later jump). And yet the characters are acting like it's the nine or so months it was for us. So while on the one hand they barely had a chance to catch their breath after defeating Zelena before the town is encircled by an ice wall, on the other hand we're supposed to believe that Robin and Regina have developed such a deep relationship that she feels her life is ruined if she can't have him and he can't muster the True Love necessary to save his long-lost wife from a curse.

 

I think one reason season one was so satisfying compared to later arcs is because it did have time to breathe. There were those one-off episodes about life in Storybrooke in which there wasn't any real villain to deal with other than Regina or Rumple's everyday antagonism, and there it was more about people having different goals and wanting different things than about any one particular evil scheme. We had time to spend with the characters as they developed their relationships. I've been trying to imagine how season one would have gone if they'd written it the way they have subsequent story arcs:

• The whole season would have taken place in two weeks between Emma's arrival in town and the breaking of the curse.
• There would be no one-off episodes about secondary characters -- no Archie backstory, no Hansel and Gretel, no Ruby, probably no Cinderella, with just the Rumple bits of the backstory worked into the designated Rumple/Snow/Charming backstory episode.
• The only follow-up to Graham's death would be Emma running for sheriff. There would be no emotional follow-up, like Henry avoiding Emma so Regina wouldn't kill her, too. In fact, the reason Emma had to run for sheriff wouldn't even be mentioned.
• Mary Margaret and David's entire affair would span maybe five days between him waking from the coma, them being drawn to each other, his wife showing up, him trying to be with his wife, them getting together, them breaking up, and her being arrested for Kathryn's murder.
• Emma and Mary Margaret would have no conversations.
• Henry and Emma would just have a few interactions until suddenly she had to be so attached to him that a True Love's Kiss would work. She'd be sidetracked during the middle of the arc by investigating Kathryn's supposed death and then only remember at the end that she had a son. (Of course, if they were really writing the way they are now, Regina would be the one to break her own curse with a True Love's Kiss on Henry, and then she'd be called a hero for breaking the curse. Everything Emma went through because she was the Savior, including being sent alone to another world to grow up without parents, would turn out to have been pointless because Regina's love for an adopted son could break the curse.)
• The Kathryn frame-up would be set up and then forgotten. Mary Margaret would just be in jail until the curse broke and everyone realized what was going on. All those episodes of investigating, trying to clear her name and seeing the evidence point to Regina would end up having been pointless. We'd never find out what really happened to Kathryn.

[Rumsy4]

• (Of course, if they were really writing the way they are now, Regina would be the one to break her own curse with a True Love's Kiss on Henry, and then she'd be called a hero for breaking the curse. Everything Emma went through because she was the Savior, including being sent alone to another world to grow up without parents, would turn out to have been pointless because Regina's love for an adopted son could break the curse.)

 

It's scary how much this makes total sense now. That's exactly what would have happened. Regina would have woken Henry up with True Love's kiss, and Emma would be the one left standing alone. 

[Shanna Marie]

That's exactly what would have happened. Regina would have woken Henry up with True Love's kiss, and Emma would be the one left standing alone.

And Emma would have been shown to be a failure or useless because she didn't manage to get the potion. Regina would be shown to be Henry's true mother because she was the one who was able to save him with the kiss.

 

Everyone would totally forget that Regina was the one who made the poisoned apple tart that nearly killed him in the first place.

[RadioGirl27]

Everyone would totally forget that Regina was the one who made the poisoned apple tart that nearly killed him in the first place.

It's not like they remember now. Or that she was the one that cursed them. Or that she has tried to kill them all multiple times. Or that she raped and killed Graham. Or that she....

God, sometimes I hate this show.

[YaddaYadda]

Or that she raped and killed Graham.

 

I'm pretty sure no one knows that Regina was raping Graham since no one knows she had his heart and had turned him into her puppet/sex slave/errand boy.  Forget about Emma who knew him for like 5 seconds.  The whole reason this even happened in the first place was because he made the choice to save Snow White who is Regina's biggest apologist.

 

I decided that I will forget about Regina.  They want to redeem her and want us to forget everything she has done?  Fine...second chances BS and all, but don't tell she's the best thing ever, cause she ain't.

[Souris]

I decided that I will forget about Regina. 

 

That is going to take some serious doing, what with the show slapping you about the head with her awesomeness every five seconds. Memory spell?

[YaddaYadda]

That is going to take some serious doing, what with the show slapping you about the head with her awesomeness every five seconds. Memory spell?

 

It's a good thing my attention span isn't great then.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm pretty sure no one knows that Regina was raping Graham since no one knows she had his heart and had turned him into her puppet/sex slave/errand boy.

While no one knew she was using Graham as a sex slave/errand boy, Henry believed she killed him and may have suspected it was by heart crushing, so he may have at least guessed that she had his heart so she could have killed him remotely while it looked like a heart attack. Henry stayed away from Emma after that because he was afraid Regina would murder Emma, too.

 

And now the idiot kid thinks the book was totally wrong about Regina and Regina totally deserves a happy ending. Does that mean he thinks that he was wrong about Regina when he believed she was killing people and doing whatever it took to maintain the curse?

[YaddaYadda]

I could write chapters about Henry who is the worst character on the show (for me) and that's saying something.

[KAOS Agent]

So the discussion in the "Going Home" thread has reminded me of how oddly paced that episode was and how the emotional ending covered how little payoff we got with some of the relationships. Belle & Neal got the shaft with regards to their reactions to Rumpel's word of farewell/death, Neal didn't get any screen time saying goodbye to Henry, David & Snow didn't say goodbye to Henry, David was not allowed a real goodbye with Emma since Snow got it all (and let's not lie, I'd so much rather David say goodbye than Snow). Not to mention we all knew that by reversing the curse and essentially resetting the show, we were never going to get a resolution to so much of the story that was told in Season 1.

 

But reading the original TWOP thread got me thinking and comparing that episode to the 4A finale. We had a random magical item discovery (the gauntlet v the Black Fairy's wand), a silly side story (Outlaw Queen angst/Operation Idiocy v the whole wand retrieval at Shady's funeral), generally worthless fairybacks, a reaction to someone who is not what they seem (Evil Rumpel v Panry), everyone being frozen and useless while the villain pontificates, a very dramatic and emotional goodbye at the town line and a whole lot of lack of payoff. It's almost like these guys have a template that they follow and need to check all the boxes.

[Shanna Marie]

I found a document of snippets I saved to discuss later while I was really busy last week, and I think this one came from this thread:

There was a point when they were sacrificing characterization for plot, but now I think they've blown straight past that and are sacrificing plot in favor of major event.

I'm not sure it's even major event anymore, but "moment." Like all they care about is that one climactic moment. Like in the latest arc, I think they just wanted that "aha!" moment in which it turns out that Belle is using the real dagger to stop Rumple. I think it was supposed to be a big surprise, and they didn't want to ruin that surprise by showing any of the steps along the way. If we'd seen Belle using the gauntlet or doing any other investigative work or if we'd seen her discovering the fake dagger, it would have ruined the "surprise" of her with the dagger, stopping Rumple from killing Hook at the last second.

 

Not that it was that much of a surprise, so they sacrificed logic and even plot for a moment that wasn't even that big a moment.

 

It is funny how many season arcs have ended with everyone frozen while something that just came out of the blue is abruptly used to resolve things. Not only was there the gauntlet in this arc and the Black Fairy Wand in 3a, but there was the "oh, wait, I can just decide to do light magic" thing in 3B. None of those were set up or established in any way.

[KAOS Agent]

From the Spoilers thread:

 

Emma nearly froze to death because Rumple couldn't be arsed to help David and Hook in White Out. Belle was standing right there at the time, and didn't so much as say a word to him. Furthermore, she continued to defend Rumple even as he lied to and manipulated her. Nor was she ignorant of who/what Rumple was. Naturally he made enemies, and yeah, she's got a target on her back because of it. No one's really got the high moral ground here, mmm'kay.

 

The issue of Evil Hook and his lack of apology to Belle has once again reared its ugly head and while I'm not going to get into that discussion because it devolves into comparisons of who deserved what, I would like to discuss Belle's less than stellar actions in 4A as described above. As the season went on and we discovered that Belle was lying to Elsa about Anna, her actions (or inaction) in "White Out" became pretty disturbing. David and Hook came to Rumpel asking for help in saving Emma's life. In that conversation they said that they needed to find Anna and Rumpel denied all knowledge of her in addition to refusing to help. Belle was standing right there during that conversation. Not only did she not ask Rumpel to help find a magical solution to getting Emma out and ignore Rumpel's truly disgusting allusion to the wife he'd murdered, but she also did not tell Hook & David that they were potentially on a fool's errand as she'd last seen Anna fall off a cliff and end up in the Snow Queen's clutches. Instead of warning them that they were wasting time looking for Anna and depriving them of more time to come up with a different plan to free Emma, she essentially screwed Emma over to cover her own guilt. 

 

Even if I skip over Belle's willful blindness towards her husband's actions, she didn't come off very well at all when we examine her own choices. She let Elsa, Emma and the Charmings spend a whole lot of time searching for information on both Anna and the Snow Queen rather than filling them in in a selfish attempt to cover up her past. Belle knew Ingrid was Elsa's aunt. She also knew about the hat and last she'd seen it, the Snow Queen had it. Knowing its power, why didn't she warn Elsa and Emma of the potential danger? Seriously bad things could have happened to both Elsa and Emma all because Belle was covering her own ass. 

Edited January 20, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Souris]

It's yet another example of the writers needing to have something happen (or not happen), so they completely ignore characterization in order to move the plot in the direction they want -- because if the character behaved in a realistic or in-character way, it would change their plot. And plot ALWAYS comes before character in this show.

[YaddaYadda]

They actually sacrificed Belle's goody two shoes character for absolutely no reason.  She came out of her fairyback in Arendelle wanting to be a hero, that's all I got from that.  Even the whole conversation about the Dark Sorcerer from the EF she had with Anna and then going back to her father and telling him about said Sorcerer and he's like oh I know his name, Rumple...

 

It must have dawned on her somewhere in that unicorn and butterflies brain-filled of hers that her loving hubby was lying about knowing Anna.  He has her necklace which was not brought by the curse since Anna wasn't in SB, since she doesn't know what happened to her after she was taken by Ingrid, but Rumple has Anna's necklace which means that he could have gotten in from Ingrid herself.  

 

Belle wears blinders.  She chose to believe that Rumple had changed and by George, nothing was going to change her mind on that, not even that tiny voice in her head that was telling her he was lying to her about the dagger and a whole bunch of other truths.  

 

I don't hate the character, but I wanna throttle her sometimes (all the time) especially when she starts talking about love and stuff like that.

[Mari]

The thing is, I'm not sure how much it actually did sacrifice Once's Belle's character.  The original cartoon Belle?  Absolutely.  But Once's Belle has usually been better at saying she wanted to be a hero than actually being a hero.

 

The first season, she did walk away from him.  But in hindsight, given the 2 1/2 seasons in between, did she walk away because Rumple wouldn't change, or because Rumple wouldn't give up power for her?  Even in this current banishment, the banishment didn't seem to happen because Rumple was evil, liked it, and wasn't planning to change.  Looking at her banishment speech, and the events around it, Rumple was banished because she'd spent all those years convinced that Rumple had once given up something  he wanted for her--and when she found out he'd gone back for it, her pride was hurt.

 

IT seemed like it was less about Rumple being evil, and more about her feelings being hurt.  She's rarely actually had any serious problem with Rumple marching around devastating people--there wasn't a peep after she was deLaceyfied.

 

Does she have trouble with Rumple hurting people, or just Rumple hurting her feelings and self-image?

[KingOfHearts]

 

Looking at her banishment speech, and the events around it, Rumple was banished because she'd spent all those years convinced that Rumple had once given up something  he wanted for her--and when she found out he'd gone back for it, her pride was hurt.

"I gave everything" and "I lost my way trying to help you find yours" come to mind. She didn't mention he was still killing people, even after just watching him try to murder Hook. It was more about the gauntlet, really. If Rumple hadn't been doing this hat stuff or even swapping the dagger, it wouldn't have affected her decision. She used that gauntlet to see his True Love was power and not her. No one else had anything to do with it, which is typical of Belle. She didn't give two flips about him hurting the Storybrookians.

 

Logically, banishing Rumple was the right thing to do. He was a threat that needed to be neutralized. The intent, however, was a completely different story.

Edited January 20, 2015 by KingOfHearts