A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Souris]

I think my ranking would be exactly like Shanna Marie's -- with the caveat that what they do in 4x11 could drop it.

[daxx]

Wow, Shanna Marie, exactly my own thoughts! Perfect order and reasons.

[Curio]

Shanna Marie, my ranking is pretty much identical to yours, except I can't lump all of Season 1 into one category. I'd rank the first arc of Season 1 (Pilot through Graham's death) as the strongest batch of episodes the show has done. Close to that arc is the ending episodes of Season 1 when Emma is finally piecing things together. But there's enough random flashback episodes of characters who are basically nonexistent now (Archie, Grumpy, Cinderella, Hansel and Gretel, etc.) that make me not want to rank the entirety of Season 1 as the best. I know a lot of fans enjoy learning more about the side characters, but upon rewatch, their episodes are such a drag to get through, so I like the new focus on only the core 6-7 characters. (Except I don't like the times when it goes overboard and focuses too much on certain core characters...)

 

It's strange, because from an overall writing standpoint (Which I nag on all the time, I know.) Season 1 should be my favorite, but I never got obsessed with the show until Season 2/3. I don't know what happened between then and now (okay, Captain Hook happened), but I never got super into discussing the show in Season 1. I always watched it every week and it was in my top 5 favorites, but I wasn't obsessed with it or wanted to analyze it death like I do now.

 

So if I were ranking, I'd probably have to split Season 1 up into three arcs, and go: 1A, 4A, 1C, 3A, 2A, 1B, 3B, 2B. 

[HoodlumSheep]

Shanna Marie, I like your ranking. As for my own personal preferences, I'd probably switch your 3 and 4 around, but it has been a while since I've seen 2a, so maybe I'd appreciate it more if I rewatched it.

I miss the Dairy Queen, and she hasn't even been gone an episode :'(. I actually liked how the fairybacks in 4a were their own story with guest appearances by some of the main cast. I know some characters are in desperate need of centrics but I didn't really mind it. I also like how the fairybacks caught up to present time.

[Mathius]

Shanna Marie, I like your ranking. As for my own personal preferences, I'd probably switch your 3 and 4 around, but it has been a while since I've seen 2a, so maybe I'd appreciate it more if I rewatched it.

I really like 2A, it's mostly really tight, exciting, and well-written. But not only does the fast pace limit character interaction and development, but there's "Child of the Moon", which just stops the whole thing's momentum and is a very poor way to resolve King George as opposed to a Charming centric with a flashback of taking back the kingdom, something that almost everyone wanted. That disappointment alone is a big reason why I elevate 3A over 2A.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Mathius

[Camera One]

I like Red, but I agree "Child of the Moon" was very weak.  On the Storybrooke side, they did a poor job of providing Charming with character development... having to rule without Snow, and also running the town with people now remembering who they are.  That had so much potential, but was squandered.  If anything, it was one distraction after another in Storybrooke... the whole Whale Frankenstein zombie, the nonsensical traffic jam to the border, etc.  "We Are Both" should have been a Charming centric.  I liked him having scenes with Henry, but again, that barely skimmed the surface.  There was zero sadness about Emma and Snow.  I guess their hope was just THAT strong.  They could have had some payoffs with characters reuniting and finding one another, and the only one they featured was Paige and Jefferson, which should have been amazing, but wasn't.  Likewise, Belle's time locked up didn't figure at all, nor her distrust in Rumple.  The only coherent string was Regina trying to resist using magic.  In the Enchanted Forest, same thing of lost potential.  Snow and Emma were together, but were not given meaningful conversations after the first two episodes.  

 

In that sense, 2A was very similar to 3A.  Yes, these characters were physically in each other's vicinity, but did they delve into anything deeper than the "plan" of the hour?  Nope.  They were running away from zombie armies, or racing to one place or another.  That was pretty much what happened in Neverland.  After the second episode, very little of substance was said between the characters.  It was either plot-related conversation, or triangle stuff.  "Nasty Habits" was just as much of a lost opportunity as "Child of the Moon".  That was pretty much the only Rumple/Neal episode the entire time the character was on the show, and it barely scratched the surface.  So with so-called character development being equal, at least 2A was a bit more fun to rewatch.  Rumple with the doll the second time was excruciating. Watching Henry with the Lost Boys knowing that he wasn't actually bluffing Pan was frustrating.  

Edited December 11, 2014 by Camera One

[Mathius]

"Nasty Habits" was just as much of a lost opportunity as "Child of the Moon".

Disagree, because Neal himself was already an irretrievably wasted opportunity back in Season 2 that I don't think anything would have helped his case.

[Camera One]

I think there can always be room for improvement in an episode, and with "Nasty Habits", that holds true even more than usual.  Clearly, one episode can't reverse the underlying problems with Neal. But the issue here was about "Nasty Habits".  That episode could have been written in multitudes of different ways which would have been more satisfying in terms of character insight and development.  The flashback could have been about Bae's time in Neverland, or how he got out of it, or what happened to him once he got back to the Land Without Magic which made him turn to thievery.  The present-day material could have provided a less idiotic way to have Neal reject/feel betrayed by Rumple, and then get caught.  

[Mathius]

I'm not saying "Nasty Habits" is a good episode, it's definitely the weakest of the arc. I just don't think its waste of potential is as damning as the wasted potential in "Child of the Moon".

Edited December 12, 2014 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

I will say that while I think season one overall was better in quality, had tighter plotting, more consistent characterization and better flashbacks that told a real story, I don't actually enjoy rewatching it all that much. I enjoy the fairybacks, but the present-day Storybrooke plot gets really oppressive, especially toward the end with the frame-up plot. Regina just has so much power because no one else even knows what she's up to, and it seems so impossible and frustrating. I guess that means they did their job if I get so engaged that I find it stressful to watch, but it's just not fun.

 

Some of the later stuff that isn't as well done is actually a lot more fun to watch. Yeah, logic has flown out the window and it never really lives up to its potential after that first season, but it's fun and entertaining, whether the show itself is being entertaining or whether the hate-watching is where I get the fun. This is a weird show in that I actually seriously enjoy it and hate watch it, all at the same time, on a scene-by-scene basis.

 

In contrast with season one, for the most part I enjoy the present-day stories more once we get into season two (until the dreaded trainwreck hits). That was when they started going thematic with the flashbacks -- this is the episode about hope, so we need a flashback in which someone learns A Valuable Lesson about hope! -- or else they just used the flashbacks as an excuse to show something they thought was cool. You could remove most of the season two flashbacks and the story would still make total sense. There's very little plot-specific information being conveyed in the flashbacks, aside from the Rumple and Hook past, the revelation of Henry's father, showing how Cora got back to the Enchanted Forest, and how Bae got to Neverland. They never even bothered continuing to fill in the missing gaps, like how David apparently took over George's kingdom or how Snow learned David's true identity. Otherwise, it was a lot of randomness of Regina being evil (again) or pointless (Snow can't have children! Except she's had one, so no suspense that this wouldn't be fixed by the end of the episode).

 

They kind of got back to using the flashbacks to set up the present story in late season 3, but the flashback story was pretty lame. It finally clicks again with Frozen.

[HoodlumSheep]

I will say that while I think season one overall was better in quality, had tighter plotting, more consistent characterization and better flashbacks that told a real story, I don't actually enjoy rewatching it all that much. I enjoy the fairybacks, but the present-day Storybrooke plot gets really oppressive, especially toward the end with the frame-up plot. Regina just has so much power because no one else even knows what she's up to, and it seems so impossible and frustrating. I guess that means they did their job if I get so engaged that I find it stressful to watch, but it's just not fun.

Some of the later stuff that isn't as well done is actually a lot more fun to watch. Yeah, logic has flown out the window and it never really lives up to its potential after that first season, but it's fun and entertaining

They kind of got back to using the flashbacks to set up the present story in late season 3, but the flashback story was pretty lame. It finally clicks again with Frozen.

You know, it's funny 'cause I kind of feel the same way about season one. I enjoyed it, and tried to rewatch it, but couldn't being myself to get all the way through it again. I probably enjoyed the fairybacks better because I really liked the Snowing story. The novelty of Season 1 goodness has worn off for me, but I still think it was the best handled season. If I were to list what my favorite episodes were, I'd probably only list possibly one (maybe 2) from the first season.

I enjoyed the flashbacks of the Frozen arc and how they caught up to present day. Now that the seasons are broken up into two villain arcs essentially, i think it works better that the flashbacks focus on the villains/major characters of the specific fairy tale, while the main cast makes guest appearances.

Although, that's an imperfect way of handling things too, because I think the main cast should have been integrated a little bit better than what they were (like Anna teaches David how to sword fight in a day--it needed to be fleshed out a little better). Also, some of the main cast still need to be fleshed out despite this being the 4th season, which would be harder to do if they are just making cameos in the guest cast's flashbacks.

Can't wait for the finale! Then I'll be able to post some final thoughts on the Frozen arc!

Edited December 14, 2014 by HoodlumSheep

[Camera One]

I was thinking about the Three Villains thing, and I'm wondering if this is a way to make the flashback storytelling easier.  

 

With one villain, it's either going overboard (eg. Zelena) and there's a restriction of being limited to certain characters who connect with that villain (Rumple and Hook for Peter Pan, and Rumple and Regina for Zelena), and there's less variety so the writers more easily run out of ideas and have to put in fillers.

 

With half a season, you have 9 episodes or so to work with.  They could have one episode to tell the origin story for each of the 3 villains, the fourth episode for how they met, a fifth which will show us Rumple and their mysterious plan, and then a few that include the villains' crossing paths with the main cast (eg. how Regina and Maleficient met).  This provides way more shiny toys with the single unifying story being how these three villains aligned and what their plan is with Rumple.

 

It's sort of like how they structured the Frozen arc.  They had three main characters to flashback to... Anna, Elsa and the Snow Queen, and then they had some where they were together.  Except Frozen did provide a single unifying story.  So the big question is whether this disjointed approach in 4B is going to work or completely fly apart.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I don't know if this is delayed reaction or what, but last night's episode sealed it for me--this is the most poorly written show I've watched for four seasons. It's never going to get better. They've officially ruined Snow for me. Emma too has been sacrificed at the altar of Woegina. People do stupid things for plot, and there are hardly any plot or emotional payoffs. The writers keep setting up these arcs and plots, but either resolve them quickly, or don't even mention them again. The relationships seem shallow because people don't react naturally to things half the time, and other things are retconned or whitewashed.

S1 was still the best season of this Show. While 4A was better than S2B or 3B, that's not saying much. The OQ stuff, and Operation Mongoose really pulled it down for me. There was too much focus on the Frozen folk (even though they were great), and not enough time spent on regulars.

And now, the Show has officially become about getting villans their Happy Endings. That's the official direction of the rest of the Show. Both Regina and Rumple are after the book author, and now Emma's also part of Operation Mongoose. I really need to distance myself from this mess over the hiatus--there are better ways to spend my time than obsessing over this trash.

[HoodlumSheep]

I feel like they should have just ended 4a with last episode and tacked on just a few of the scenes from last night to finish some story lines. It felt like we're still missing an episode or at least a half of one, because things were not resolved so well. No Ingrid left a hole in my heart, and you could even feel the missing presence of Snowing, who got 2 seconds of airtime.

The biggest problem with this arc was the disjointedness, and that clearly showed in the finale when all the story lines were getting wrapped up (some not getting any emotional payoff).

I thought they were really going strong up until 4x05 debuted. They had such a strong momentum going. I remember when I was freaking out so hard at the end of The Apprentice, because despite Killy holding the idiot ball, Rumple bared his fangs and went straight for the jugular. Major stuff was about to go down, things were going to start blowing up in people's faces, and then.....Nothing.

The sorcerers hat stuff was dropped for pretty much an entire 3 episodes. Also the DQ storyline basically came to a standstill for 2/3 episodes. 95% of the momentum was lost, and he show didn't really recover after that. Shattered sight was good, but he finale, while it had one or two good scenes, was fairly mediocre. It just needed more emotional payoff on some of the stuff.

If I were to rewatch this season, I'd probably watch all the flashbacks, but skip pretty much all of episodes 5 and 6, and most of ep. 8 (and I would prettt much miss nothing). But this season still has more episodes I'd probablt rewatxh than others, mainly for Ingrid.

Don't care much for the Author plot or OQ much. I'm still holding out that Operation Mongoose ends in failure and Regina finally learns that she can't blame outside sources for her miserable life. I liked the sorcerer's hat plot, i just wish it wasn't dropped for a quarter of the season, and hat the end with Killy getting his heart back had more payoff on the CS side if things.

While I appreciate 4a carrying over storylines into 4b to keep it connected unlike season 3 for the most part, i think they spent too much time building up 4b stuff (like with Will and even introducing the Evil Trio). I felt that the Evil Trio should have been introduced in a seperate episode rather than the finale, even though that wouldn't have left us with much of a cliffhanger.

as for character storylines: i like that Emma finally got focus, I liked Rumple's storyline despite it kind of coming from no where. I liked that Killy had a seperate storyline from Emma and am excited with what will happen with him in 4b, although I'm sad he and Emma hardly interactes in the back half of this season. More charming is always good, even if his scenes tend to be weaker, he's an underappreciated character, Snow continues to be dishonored, I'm hoping 4b finally conks some sense into Regina.

Belle gets a pass, solely for her banishing Rumple in the finally. I just hope her newfound awesomeness stays, even just a little, or I'll take back what I said. Will was just kind of there. Henry seems to be a lost cause, but I preferred him having scenes with Regina than Emma. And Robin needs to reevaluate his life. Did I forget anyone?

Also. that pesky door. So has it been there since they were brought back by the third curse? Or did the sorcerer conjure it up behind the scenes?does that mean that the sorceror is in town? I was kind of hoping that Mickey would turn out to be the sorcerer just pretending to be the apprentice.

Ultimately, I think the finale let the problems we try to handwave shine through more than usual.

I think the finale kind of bumped 4a down to being tied with 3a for me. (So tied with 2nd best IMO) it would probably only eclipse 3a due to Ingrid.

Ingrid's story was worth it. :''(

Regardless of everything, I'll be back for 4b.

[YaddaYadda]

I think we're pretty much all on the same boat on this one.

 

I find that Once builds awesome story arcs, the ideas are great on paper but the execution is always lacking.  But this show was always about a villain, namely Regina.  I mean A&E are always asking the question can a villain like Regina get her happy ending.  That's where things are at, sadly.  It's not about people like Emma who in spite of every shitty thing in her life is still a good person, loving and loyal.  No, it's about these villains who are batshit crazy because they have some sob story in their past.

 

So over this ridiculous speech.  They're about to whitewash everyone anyway with that ridiculous book, so whatever...

[KingOfHearts]

 

And now, the Show has officially become about getting villans their Happy Endings. That's the official direction of the rest of the Show.

 

Ouch. You're right.

 

Who really gives a flying flip about villains getting their happy endings? They're evil. They're not supposed to be happy, hence their wickedness. Let's face it - villains are bad because they want to be bad. They relish in it. It's not about having babies and spouses and being content. It's about anger, revenge, deceit, and trying to get what they want. They are not people who just want to be happy being forced to commit malicious acts by some author. As long as they make bad choices to attain what they believe is perfection, they'll never understand joy. My point is that evil can't be whitewashed, nor does it want to be. It wants darkness. To say the opposite is pure nonsense.

Edited December 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Who really gives a flying flip about villains getting their happy endings? They're evil. They're not supposed to be happy, hence their wickedness.

Yes! Isn't that what fairy tales are supposed to be all about? Isn't that the company line from the first season -- that heroes will win in the end for being good? And now it looks like they're going to be tying themselves up in all kinds of logic about this because at the same time as I'm sure they'll be making it look like a really bad thing for Cruella and company to get their happy endings, they'll be sticking to the concept of it being a brilliant idea for Regina to go find the author and demand a happy ending.

 

I'm all for a good redemption story, but they haven't done one for Regina. If Regina were really redeemed, she wouldn't be whining about not getting her happy ending. If she were truly repentant and able to see the difference between good and evil, she wouldn't be expecting things to go smoothly for her because she'd realize she's facing the consequences of her own actions or getting hit with the karma truck for all the times she deliberately did to other people what's now happening to her. Until she's willing to just keep being good without expecting a reward for it, just for her own sake and so she can sleep at night, I won't consider her redeemed. A truly redeemed villain wouldn't be going on a quest to find out who's screwing up her life. Isn't the fact that Rumple is out to get the same thing kind of a sign of how stupid this is?

 

Back to the season rankings ... I know they like to distinguish between "the Evil Queen" and "Storybrooke Regina" with that "what happens in the Enchanted Forest stays in the Enchanted Forest" thing, but it's actually Mayor Mills who I see as one of the worst villains on the show. She's the reason I have a hard time rewatching the first season. I guess it's because I seriously doubt I'll ever have to deal with a scenery chewer in Evil Queen drag, but I've had to face my share of power-suited bitches who are willing to trample over anyone to achieve their ambitions, but who do it with a smile and a facade of pleasantry so that you end up looking bad for criticizing them. It's almost physically painful to see how she has such total control of the town, and they can't fight back because they have no idea what's really going on. Emma is so outgunned and so hampered by actually caring about other people. It's hard to watch Regina gleefully devastate Henry and send children off to what she knows are their deaths just to torture Emma or torture Mary Margaret with the frame-up even though Mary Margaret has no memory of ever doing anything to her. Since this is the person I find most loathsome, I can't separate her from the Evil Queen persona, and I think subsequent seasons in which they act like Regina is totally okay because she's not the Evil Queen at all have made the first season that much more difficult to watch.

 

I'm not sure yet if the train wreck of a mid-season finale lowers my ranking of the 4A arc. The Frozen stuff was great, and the potential of the Rumple stuff was good, but it may be another 3B in which I enjoyed it as it played out, but the resolution of the arc made everything that came before pointless. At least they didn't undermine everything by pulling a resolution that was there all along out of thin air, and the resolution of the Frozen stuff worked. It's just that they allowed zero room for emotional resonance, and then there was the godawful Outlaw Queen stuff and this utterly inane Operation Mongoose plot.

[Camera One]

From their Hollywood Reporter interview:

 

Kitsis: I would say that right now, the thing we're excited about is what makes a hero and what makes a villain. And what is a happy ending.

 

Heroes help people at the expense of themselves, and villain destroy other people's lives for their own selfish reasons.  What else is there to explore?

 

If they want to redeem Regina and show how she is slowly turning away from villainy and trying to do heroic deeds, then fine.  But drop the crap about "hero" and "villain" being relative terms.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm not sure yet if the train wreck of a mid-season finale lowers my ranking of the 4A arc.

I find that the finale was a reflection of the crap to come from 4B, not 4A.

 

 

If they want to redeem Regina and show how she is slowly turning away from villainy and trying to do heroic deeds, then fine.  But drop the crap about "hero" and "villain" being relative terms.

The "heroes" and "villains" thing annoys me to no end. The morality there is so beyond messed up that I can't believe it's going to be a major focal point for a whole arc. Just because someone is a decent person who doesn't like to kill does not mean they're a "hero", and just because life doesn't go their way doesn't mean they're a "villain". This show throws labels around like there's no tomorrow. Regina blames her problems on it, and Henry judges people by it. It's absolute hogwash. Yes there's good and evil, but this show's definition of what's what is just horridly against nature.

Edited December 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[retrograde]

Well, now a day has passed and I'm less bummed about the lousy finale, here is my wrap-up of the season as a whole. I know intellectually I did really enjoy the vast majority of this season, though the lack of adequate resolution given to several storylines in the last episode did bring it down in my estimation. I thought they were building to something cooler than they were. Still:

 

Liked

• Frozen! While I wasn’t as down on the concept as some going in, I was as skeptical as anyone how much they could really do with a new movie franchise that smelled a little like a shameless Disney tie-in. But it was great! Everyone was so well cast — Elsa and Anna especially — and they were all well written, too.
• On a similar note, I remember people being down on the idea that they weren’t going to give the Frozen characters a Once-style reimagining, just have them as they were in the movie. But I quite enjoyed seeing the regular characters in the “real” world — especially Anna. I don’t think I’d want the show to do it again, but I think it was fine just this once. Also, the creation of the whole Snow Queen thing was a good work-around for that and a clever way to tie in the original Snow Queen story. Which brings me to…
• Elizabeth Mitchell! So good. I don’t think the character would have been as good in different hands.
• Special shout-out to Elizabeth Lail, too, given this was her first ever TV show. The first episode was a bit shaky, but I thought she was great after that. 
• Evil Rumple. The best Rumple.
• Rumple and Hook. I don’t mind Hook’s redemption, but the character is great when he gets to be snarky and devious again, and the two play really well off each other.
• Belle finally kicking Rumple to the curb. I love evil Rumple, but Belle shouldn’t.
• Emma and Elsa. It was nice Emma got a friend, even if only for 12 episodes.
• Evil ice cream truck.
• Emma’s childhood flashbacks! And also the great casting on the kid who played young Emma.
• Hook’s makeover. I thought they could have made the modern outfit a little more interesting, but it needed to happen.
• Emma’s ever-growing collection of great leather jackets.
• Bo Peep as an extortionate warlord. I really hope she pops up again.
• The unexpected return of Blackbeard. Also hopefully not the last.
• Emma and Hook. Although it got lost a bit in the back part of the half-season, this is still one of the better relationships the show has done, and they mostly managed to not cock it up.
• Roland’s dimples.

Did not like

• The finale. I didn’t hate it, but it felt way too rushed, and the five seconds given to the entire resolution of the plot about Hook’s heart was a really shitty ending for an otherwise good storyline. Ultimately, I think they just tried to cram too many storylines in to 12 episodes. I didn’t really notice how ambitious they were being for most of 4A because they managed to keep all the balls in the air, but I think they came tumbling down in Heroes and Villains, making for a disappointing ending to an otherwise strong season.
• Robin. He just got worse and worse as the episodes went by.
• Crypt sex. *shudders*
• Lack of Marian. She seemed cool (boom boom) and I wish we had gotten more of her while conscious.
• Operation Mongoose. Beyond the fact that this storyline makes no sense, it’s just plain boring. And I haven’t seen a single person here or elsewhere say they feel otherwise.
• What was the point of Henry working in Gold’s store again? That plot really went nowhere.
• Other plots that went nowhere: Snow is the new mayor.
• And let’s not even talk about Will Scarlet.

 

Favorite episodes: 401, 404, 407, 410 (or whatever number Shattered Sight was)

Least favourite: 406, 408, finale

[FabulousTater]

Just because someone is a decent person who doesn't like to kill does not mean they're a "hero"

Yes. Being a "hero" isn't just flying through life not hurting anyone. It's going above and beyond to help others when it would be easier for you to look the other way and when doing the right thing means sacrificing your own life or well-being for the sake of others. It is selfless. And no, blaming others for your own horrible actions and choices is not heroism, and fixing your own selfish mistakes isn't heroism either. That's called paying the piper, reaping what you sow, and facing the consequences.

 

In my book, a hero didn't make the mess to begin with. Owning up to your own shit that has hurt others is called basic human decency and recognizing personal responsibility. Facing the consequences of your misdeeds, acknowledging that you were wrong, and trying to make amends (trying to fix what you broke) are all admirable qualities, especially in a land full of cowards, but it is not the same thing as true heroism.

 

These writers like to confuse heroism with facing consequences of your own bad actions, but they are not the same. It's gotten to the point that for me their definition of "hero" insults the truly heroic people in real life (let alone who are the actual heroes in the show). They like to play fast and loose with morality and (IMO) their moral relativism is a slap in the face to those that fight the good fight for the sole reason that it needs to be fought and not because they wanted to get a cookie in the end that they thought they deserved.

Edited December 16, 2014 by FabulousTater

[HoodlumSheep]

Well, now a day has passed and I'm less bummed about the lousy finale, here is my wrap-up of the season as a whole. I know intellectually I did really enjoy the vast majority of this season, though the lack of adequate resolution given to several storylines in the last episode did bring it down in my estimation. I thought they were building to something cooler than they were. Still:

Liked

• Frozen! While I wasn’t as down on the concept as some going in, I was as skeptical as anyone how much they could really do with a new movie franchise that smelled a little like a shameless Disney tie-in. But it was great! Everyone was so well cast — Elsa and Anna especially — and they were all well written, too.
• On a similar note, I remember people being down on the idea that they weren’t going to give the Frozen characters a Once-style reimagining, just have them as they were in the movie. But I quite enjoyed seeing the regular characters in the “real” world — especially Anna. I don’t think I’d want the show to do it again, but I think it was fine just this once. Also, the creation of the whole Snow Queen thing was a good work-around for that and a clever way to tie in the original Snow Queen story. Which brings me to…
• Elizabeth Mitchell! So good. I don’t think the character would have been as good in different hands.
• Special shout-out to Elizabeth Lail, too, given this was her first ever TV show. The first episode was a bit shaky, but I thought she was great after that.
• Evil Rumple. The best Rumple.
• Rumple and Hook. I don’t mind Hook’s redemption, but the character is great when he gets to be snarky and devious again, and the two play really well off each other.
• Belle finally kicking Rumple to the curb. I love evil Rumple, but Belle shouldn’t.
• Emma and Elsa. It was nice Emma got a friend, even if only for 12 episodes.
• Evil ice cream truck.
• Emma’s childhood flashbacks! And also the great casting on the kid who played young Emma.
• Hook’s makeover. I thought they could have made the modern outfit a little more interesting, but it needed to happen.
• Emma’s ever-growing collection of great leather jackets.
• Bo Peep as an extortionate warlord. I really hope she pops up again.
• The unexpected return of Blackbeard. Also hopefully not the last.
• Emma and Hook. Although it got lost a bit in the back part of the half-season, this is still one of the better relationships the show has done, and they mostly managed to not cock it up.
• Roland’s dimples.

Did not like

• The finale. I didn’t hate it, but it felt way too rushed, and the five seconds given to the entire resolution of the plot about Hook’s heart was a really shitty ending for an otherwise good storyline. Ultimately, I think they just tried to cram too many storylines in to 12 episodes. I didn’t really notice how ambitious they were being for most of 4A because they managed to keep all the balls in the air, but I think they came tumbling down in Heroes and Villains, making for a disappointing ending to an otherwise strong season.
• Robin. He just got worse and worse as the episodes went by.
• Crypt sex. *shudders*
• Lack of Marian. She seemed cool (boom boom) and I wish we had gotten more of her while conscious.
• Operation Mongoose. Beyond the fact that this storyline makes no sense, it’s just plain boring. And I haven’t seen a single person here or elsewhere say they feel otherwise.
• What was the point of Henry working in Gold’s store again? That plot really went nowhere.
• Other plots that went nowhere: Snow is the new mayor.
• And let’s not even talk about Will Scarlet.

Favorite episodes: 401, 404, 407, 410 (or whatever number Shattered Sight was)

Least favourite: 406, 408, finale

I agree with pretty much all of this.

My favorite eps: 4x04 and 4x10 (hail Ingrid and EM--especially the flashbacks), eps 1-3 were pretty good but not favorites)

Least favorite: 4x05 --emma forever being Regina's punching bag, but mainly because it killed the awesome momentum the first 4 episodes had going for them. The show never recovered after that.

And 4x11--it would have been much more passable (but still mediocre) if they had inserted a scene (any scene really, Granny hacking on a customer, Snow cradling baby Charming, sneezy sneezing) in between Killy getting his heart back and shots with Regina). Bleh.

Also for fun, favorite scenes:

Most of the Golden Hook scenes, especially the end of 4x04 when Rumple went full on, "lol, I'm evil and You can call yourself officially screwed forever" it had a lot of awesome energy and It made me freak out because I felt like a lot of crazy amazing stuff was about to go down.

And then the storyline was dropped for 3 episodes. :(

Also, Belle kicking Rumple out of town in 4x11

Belle vs the evil mirror in 4x06

Puppet! killy in the diner in 4x11

Snow's, "I WAS TeN!!!!!!"

Bo Peep in general

young Emma and Ingrid flashbacks ;_;

Ingrid scenes in general, especially her ending

Frozen crew (all of them)

The Elsa/wishing star scene--it felt like something out of season 1 to me, nostalgic

blackbeard

Emma/Elsa friendship, and the "love yourself" scene

Probably missed a few scenes. Also, to try to keep some positivity-- now that I feel we've somehow been thrown into a new dark age--I'm going to skip listing my least favorite scenes.

[YaddaYadda]

This is from the Spoilers thread.  There are no spoilers here, just book discussion.

 

Part of Shanna Marie's post.

 

 

When Emma learned about it and instead of saying, "Regina, you moron, you write your own happy ending. The only stuff in the book is what actually happened. I saw that when we were in the past and the rest of the book became blank," she says it's an awesome idea and is on board with it, we knew that the show was actually saying Regina was right.

 

Even Emma has been all about how she is responsible for bringing everyone's happy ending.  I thought that was supposed to happen when she broke the original curse because then people have actual free will, her parents being those people who were separated and then reunited after the curse broke thereby getting their happy ending.  Emma mentioned how she is supposed to bring everyone's happy ending like 4 times during the first half when she really isn't. Everyone should be responsible for their own happiness and destiny. 

 

I always thought that was the lesson from the book, for Regina especially after that page appeared, as in see?  You could have had him then if you had chosen that path, but killing Snow White was more important, so screw you!  You made a choice, you have to live with it.  This has nothing to do with whether you're a hero or a villain because even heroes make bad decisions.

 

Would Killian Jones pre-Liam's death qualify as a hero?  I think he would be somewhat a hero.  He was a straight-laced naval officer, a loving brother and something of a leader.  His brother put all his trust in him to navigate a ship and a crew safely to Neverland.  But then he lost his brother and turned dark and did things in the name of his brother and later during his revenge quest for Milah.  So he became a villain because he did terrible things.  We saw him hit and shoot Belle who had never done anything to him just because she was a means to an end.  He took Aurora's heart even though he suffered from seeing someone take the heart of someone he loved.  He went from being somewhat a "heroic" character to a very dark one because he chose the wrong path.

 

But then, he became self-aware and decided that he wasted his life and that he needed to change.  Change is not without its set backs especially when you lived a certain way for so long, but he is a villain who is managing to turn his life around because he wants to be better, do right by the woman he is with.  He wants to deserve her.

 

So everyone who is seeking the Author, Emma (I still don't know why, though I'm thinking it has to do with her wanting to alleviate some of the guilt she feels for "ruining" Regina's life), Regina, Rumple, Cruela, Maleficent and Ursula, they can't have their cake and eat it too.  You just can't.  All they have to do is look at the guy who managed to turn his life around because he genuinely cares, the guy who traded his most prized possession and basically his only possession for a single magic bean.

 

People don't just walk into their happy ending, they have to make sacrifices to attain them too.

 

I hate this book plot so much!  This shouldn't be about Emma giving anyone their happy ending or Regina twisting the Author's arm into writing her her happy ending.  I hope the show surprises me and they usually do, just not in a good way. [/rant]

Edited December 16, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

People don't just walk into their happy ending, they have to make sacrifices to attain them too.

And there's the fact that as the show has demonstrated numerous times, there's a difference between what the heroes think of as a happy ending and what the villains think of as a happy ending because the villains have a bad tendency to want it all, the way they want it, NOW, and it's that tendency that undermines their happy endings.

 

Regina wasn't willing to give up her quest for revenge and power, and she couldn't think of being married to the king and having a stepdaughter who adored her as a happy ending, but she also couldn't think of leaving revenge and power for some guy in a bar as a happy ending, so she missed a couple of chances there. She wasn't willing to share Henry in any way, so she tried to kill Emma, and that led to the curse breaking, which ruined her so-called happiness. Even now, she has wealth, lives in a mansion, has a son who loves her in spite of her emotional abuse of him, has the people she's been trying to kill and tormenting treating her like a friend, and she's whining about not getting her happy ending because she doesn't have one particular boyfriend right now. Most of the heroes and good guys would be more likely to see her situation of living in comfort and surrounded by friends she doesn't deserve as a happy ending, with any romantic love that came along being a surprise bonus. It's that hope for the future rather than always wanting more that makes their endings happy.

 

In this very episode, it was Rumple's desire for more that ruined everything. As Hook kept pointing out to him, he had a marriage to a woman who truly loved him. He had the opportunity to have power over himself because he had the dagger in his possession. That should have been a happy ending, but it wasn't enough for him. He had to have ultimate power and total control, and for that he lost everything.

 

On the other hand, while I doubt that Belle is feeling very happy right now, I bet she has some sense of good and satisfaction. She discovered the truth, she saved a life, and she defeated the Dark One. I seriously doubt she's feeling sorry for herself and blaming some book author or expecting a white knight to show up on his steed to reward her right now. And, as has been pointed out, if hero Belle is going through this, why is former villain Regina's less drastic setback considered a grave injustice that must be corrected?

 

Everything about this show has shown us that the recipe for a happy ending is doing good things that you can feel good about even if your immediate circumstances aren't the best, helping other people instead of focusing on yourself and on what you want (maybe that's where Emma's thing about bringing others their happy endings comes in -- it's not about them but about how helping others is Emma's idea of a happy ending for herself), being able to see the good things you do have and be happy in your circumstances, and holding out hope that the story isn't over and more good things may come. That's why this book stuff just seems to come out of nowhere.

 

Not to mention the fact that it's an awesome idea when Regina wants to track down the author to demand a happy ending, but the "oh no, we're in trouble" cliffhanger when Rumple wants it. How can it be both?

[KingOfHearts]

 

It's that hope for the future rather than always wanting more that makes their endings happy.

 

I know this is fairytales and everyone has a predetermined happy ending and a set of circumstances to be met to qualify as such, but... To me, a happy ending is learning to be happy in all circumstances. Snow's the perfect example of going through a boatload of harsh times and still remaining joyful and content.

[Curio]

So everyone who is seeking the Author, Emma (I still don't know why, though I'm thinking it has to do with her wanting to alleviate some of the guilt she feels for "ruining" Regina's life), Regina, Rumple, Cruela, Maleficent and Ursula, they can't have their cake and eat it too. You just can't. All they have to do is look at the guy who managed to turn his life around because he genuinely cares, the guy who traded his most prized possession and basically his only possession for a single magic bean.

 

If I were Hook, I'd be insulted at this whole Operation Mongoose plan. Here he is working his ass off trying to be a better man without any cheerleaders or someone forcing him to become better person, yet now everyone thinks that some unknown author might be able to change their destinies without any hard work or effort put in.

 

Hook has seen his fair share of karmic justice because of his past evil deeds (him being forced to talk to Emma by Rumple is karmic justice for him working with Cora to speak through Aurora, Rumple taking his heart is karmic justice for stealing Aurora's heart, Hook getting run over by a car is karmic justice for shooting Belle, Hook getting kicked in the jewels and getting sent to jail by a memory-less Emma is karmic justice for making Belle lose her memories, etc.), so he would probably look at this whole Operation Mongoose plan and be like WTF. Were all of my past efforts to change for nothing? I could have just asked someone to change my fate for me this entire time?

 

I think it's awfully convenient that Regina asked Rumple how he got his "happy ending" and not Hook. But I guess if she asked Hook, there'd be no 4B plot because he'd tell her the ugly truth that she doesn't want to hear: "Accept the fact that you were a villain. Move on from your past. Try to become a better person because you want to be one. Be selfless. Make sacrifices. Don't wallow in pity whenever something bad happens to you. Boom, that's it."

[RadioGirl27]

Not to mention the fact that it's an awesome idea when Regina wants to track down the author to demand a happy ending, but the "oh no, we're in trouble" cliffhanger when Rumple wants it. How can it be both?

Yeah, it's so absurd. If this was a different show and the writers weren't so enamored of Regina, I would say that it was intentional, to show how delusional Regina actuallly is and that this Operation Desperation is not going to succeed. But with this show, they would find a stupidly contrived way to explain why Regina is right in her search for the Author ("she deserves her happy ending, she hasn't raped, killed or enslaved anybody in a long time"), while Rumple and his girls are not.

[The Cake is a Pie]

Or someone could just tell Regina, no one has happy endings, because our stories haven't ended yet. Hey, how happy were Graham and Neal's endings?

[YaddaYadda]

I think it's awfully convenient that Regina asked Rumple how he got his "happy ending" and not Hook.

 

You know, I thought for sure he was going to come up in her conversation with Rumple.  The one conversation Regina had with Hook was when they were in Neverland and she told him what Greg Mendell said about villains not getting their happy ending.  For me, that was Hook's turn around.  I thought she would bring Hook up in the conversation with Rumple because of what Emma said to her in the crypt, that she and Hook were together and happy, even if it was a plot point line to needle Regina into doing what Emma wanted her to do.  The words were still spoken.  This villain is together with the Savior (it can't more heroic than the savior) and they are happy.  And it's not like Emma is this person who takes a relationship lightly since she has been burned so much.

 

So, yeah...if Regina had spoken to Hook instead, Operation I Don't Give a Fuck would make zero sense at all.  But I'm sure Hook will be all for it since they won't allow characters to rub two brain cells together.

 

ETA - Evil isn't born, it is made.  I believe they beat us over the head with this one in 3B to give Regina her moment in the sun.  Can TLK without a heart, perform light magic without a heart, love without a heart...she feels so deeply and then says evil isn't born, it's made.

 

Her looking for a the Author is a REGRESSION of her character.

Edited December 16, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

Looking at the various outcomes of the heroes and villains:

 

Heroes:

Snow -- both parents murdered, kicked out of her home and kingdom, lived life on the run, met but separated from her true love, married her true love, had her newborn infant taken away, put under a curse for 28 years that kept her away from her husband, finally reunited with her husband and her now-grown daughter, had second baby taken away at birth. Current "happy ending": Suddenly thrust into being mayor of the town within days of giving birth, living with husband, daughter, infant and grandson in a small loft. But happy because she's surrounded by family and with her true love.

David -- forced to impersonate his twin, nearly forced to marry someone he didn't love who didn't love him, kept apart from the woman he did love, finally together with her, fought a war, nearly died trying to get his newborn daughter to safety, spent 28 years in a coma before waking, meeting someone he loved (his real wife), only to be told that he was married to someone else. Finally reunited with his wife and daughter, has a new son. Current happy ending: Serving as sheriff with his daughter, living with his whole family, happy about everything but his daughter's choice in boyfriend (and he's starting to get over that).

Emma -- grew up thinking she was abandoned at birth, missed out on the love of a family, the only person who loved her seemed to be psycho, lived on the streets for a while, got ditched by her boyfriend and sent to jail for his crime, had a baby alone in jail that she had to give up, then later discovered her son and her parents and learned the truth about her heritage. Current happy ending: A weird but nice relationship with her parents (and a mother who doesn't know quite how to deal with her), sharing her son with his adoptive mother, a growing relationship with a hot pirate with a talent for getting himself into danger, new awareness of her magical powers, put on the hook for every crisis that comes along, but never allowed to really deal with the crisis.

Belle -- discovered that her husband was cheating on her with Evil Power and lied to her, forced him out of town. Current "happy" ending: alone but with some self respect.

 

Regina:

Her boyfriend was murdered. She then chose to marry a man she didn't love, arranged his murder and spent decades trying to make Snow miserable. Now lives in a mansion, has an adopted son who loves her and has forgiven her for her emotional abuse of him, has a bunch of friends who bolster her and cheer her on in spite of all the evil things she's done to them, lost her new boyfriend when he had to stay with his wife.

 

It's not Regina who should be campaigning for a better ending from the author. It's the good guys. If Regina were in any of their shoes, she'd still be bitching about not getting her happy ending and wanting to demand that the author change it. She'd be demanding to be allowed to raise her daughter, demanding a better home, demanding a better outcome.

 

I kind of want to have her bitch about losing Robin in front of Belle and have Belle go off on her.

[Rumsy4]

From the ratings thread:

Yeah, I wouldn't be shocked to see 1.5s in 4B. Adam and Eddy has squandered all their chances. They could have easily had a real hit on their hands if 4A was better written, simply thanks to Frozen.

Especially as they seemed to have solid ratings the first couple of episodes (even after adjusting down post the Nielson-debacle).

There were several reasons why the ratings kept going down IMO. For one, they underutilized Elsa. Haig was excellent as Elsa, and yet, they confined her arc to looking for Anna (but strangely, not Kristoff). The promised friendship with Emma didn't amount to more than a few short moments. They should have had some fun moments like going clothes-shopping together, girl-talk, etc.. But plot truimps domestic moments in this show.

Anna was over-utilized. The actress was fantastic, but it was strange to make Anna the ultimate hero of the season. She went around besting Rumple, helping Charming and Belle (& ruining their backstories in the process), and defeated Ingrid. The main victory of the season should not have gone to a temporary character.

All of Regina's arcs. Operation Mongoose was pointless, and used to set up 4B. Outlaw Queen satified no one--neither the OQ shippers, nor the rest. Crypt sex and Snow cheering adultery was the worst cherry on top.

The aimless introduction of Will Scarlett.

The vaunted Emma arc being used to push a Regina/Emma friendship. Episode 5 was the lowest rated in the earlier half, and pulled down the momentum a lot. Who enjoys a whole episode of unjustified bile? With this season, they've officially turned Emma into yet another prop of Regina, along with Henry and Snow.

An unneeded copy of frozen's story where Snow suddenly became afraid of Emma's powers. The resolution was way too short, and lacked payoff, because Emma did not end up saving the day with her powers freshly under control.

The strangely placed two-hour episode which casual viewrs probably thought was the finale, or just didn't take the time to watch.

Using a deus ex machina to resolve the Hat plot so they can shoe-horn the 4B villains, instead of using the Chekov's gun arsenal they built up all through the season. The phone call, the video, Emma's fear of losing Hook--none of those things got a payoff.

In addition: too much pointless running aroung and monologuing. Repetitive dialogues (Rumple and Hook's conversations towards the end were exactly the same each time). People appearing at places without any explanation as to how they got there. Timeline and timing confusions. Now I don't see any of this getting better in 4B, so I think the ratings will continue to tank, unless by some miracle, the writing surrounding the Queens of Darkness plot turns out interesting.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

In addition: too much pointless running aroung and monologuing. Repetitive dialogues (Rumple and Hook's conversations towards the end were exactly the same each time).

 

I swear, if I had to listen to Rumple say, "When the stars in the hat align with the stars in the sky" one more time...

[Amerilla]

I feel the same way about the word "cleave."

[Rumsy4]

Not to mention, "Enjoy this day, because it will be your last..."

[Amerilla]

At least Bobby and Colin had plenty of time for Christmas shopping. They didn't really have to focus on learning new lines.

[KingOfHearts]

"I will get everything I desire..."

[HoodlumSheep]

Not gonna lie, I didn't mind the "it'll be your last" x50 mainly because it made me chuckle, especially after reading some of the posts on Tumblr that made fun of it. While some of the audience may have found it annoying and repetitive to hear it week after week, imagine how annoyed Hook probably got after hearing it a dozen times in the span of like a day and a half.

[Souris]

"Monster."

[YaddaYadda]

Oh, I wanna play too!

 

"Anna!"

"I have to find my sister!"

"My sister, Anna!"

 

That was even worst than the Rumple/Hook dialogue because I really couldn't give two effs about Anna and her glory.

[KingOfHearts]

 

"Monster."

You get a quarter from the Monster Commission every time you say that. Admit it.

 

 

 

"Anna!"

"I have to find my sister!"

"My sister, Anna!"

WAAAALT!

Edited December 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Geeni]

So should we start another drinking game?

[Rumsy4]

So should we start another drinking game?

Do you want us to get alcohol poisoning? :-p

[scarynikki12]

In the Questions thread, KingofHearts asked if the characters actually felt those 28 years they'd been under the Curse.  I think they must have because their behavior in the last scenes of season 1 and the opening scenes of season 2 was of people who hadn't seen each other in a lifetime.  And, of course, they hadn't thanks to the Curse.  If they weren't supposed to feel every second of those years then they wouldn't have acted like it had been so long, as we know that Snow had seen the dwarves moments before they were swallowed by the Curse and they'd seen Blue not long before.  Snow freaking out at seeing Charming made sense as her last memory of him was his severe wound and assumption that he was dead but the tears and hugs at seeing everyone else was due to feeling the duration since the Curse. 

 

Moving on, we've talked about whether or not it was a good idea to bring magic back so soon in the series and I go two ways on it.  First, I don't think it was necessarily a bad idea to bring magic to town but, second, I do believe that it was a bad idea to give Rumpel and Regina their full powers back so soon.  I think it would have done both a world of good to have to continue without powers in the wake of the Curse being broken.  I'd have given the fairies their magic back (as they seemed to be innately magical when introduced), and maybe even specific items like Jefferson's hat, and let our two Big Bads have to use their brains to survive against the angry, Curseless, townspeople.  Of course, we'd have to see said townspeople actually care about being Cursed for more than five minutes, but that'd be the plan.  I think any redemption of Regina would have been successful without her powers, and I've always found Rumpel to be at his best when he was Mr. Gold, magic less pawnbroker. 

 

Plus, it'd have been amusing to see the two of them have to watch Emma's powers grow while they were stuck without theirs.  It'd serve them right for being such horrible villains. 

[Camera One]

I just started my marathoning of 4A with a friend, and rewatching the ship scene, I concur with everyone who said Anna's mother has amazing penmanship under such conditions and probably had water-resistant pens and paper to boot.  When she said, "Anna and Elsa must know the truth.  It's the only thing that will save them."  Save them from what?  So letting Ingrid out of the urn and letting Arendelle know the truth about the 3 sisters will save Elsa and Anna?  How exactly?  If she said, "I want Anna and Elsa to do what I should have done years ago," at least that would have made more sense.  

 

And on another note, the whole plot doesn't make the Rock Trolls look too good.  Why couldn't they have been a tad more forthcoming with Anna about what happened?  Did they also lose the memories of what happened?

[Camera One]

It's funny how there does seem to be seemingly thoughtful little details when episodes are watched back-to-back.  Not sure if it was intended that Anna and Elsa's parents said they'd be gone for 2 weeks, and Anna told Elsa she would be gone 2 weeks, and Charming's dad left for 2 weeks.  

 

Overall, though, I can't say my thoughts changed too much.  Anna and Charming's scenes still totally grated, especially when she called him a coward and they had to bang us over the head with Ruth telling Anna that she had changed David.  In hindsight, they went way overboard in forcing parallels between characters from the movie, and the main characters of the show.  Anna saying Charming was JUST like what happened with her sister Elsa running away from her problems?  The two situations weren't analogous at all.  

 

I often say I want more quiet moments.  But when it's done badly, it's just boring upon rewatch.  David's long-winded story about his drunk father was painful to listen to.  It just felt so contrived and so disconnected from the situation, that it was impossible to actually feel genuine sympathy for him.  The Emma/Elsa stuff worked because the conversation was natural and more organic.  Their stuff in the ice cave was hands-down one of the highlights of the season, despite the weird lighting and makeup in that scene.  I hated Rumple's monologue in Episode 1 the first time around, and it was just as bad the second time around.  The actor is good, but recounting some story about Baelfire we never saw and couldn't connect to just made the words sound hollow.   

 

When Regina first told Sidney that the book determines the happy endings, even he sounded skeptical, and yet by the end of the season, everyone is on board?  

[Camera One]

We ended up watching three episodes in one night, and they do flow pretty well.  "White Out"/"Rocky Road" together were quite nice in the sense that Emma got some good character moments and continuity in both in terms of dealing with her role as "Savior", along with nice scenes with Elsa in the former and David in the latter.  The other similarity in the two episodes was a C Plot with Snow/mayor/attachment issues with the baby.  I enjoyed those little moments since it allowed Snow White to be Snow White, and took time away from Regina and Rumple.  Too bad all her stuff was completely dropped in the back-half.  

 

I'm glad Henry didn't come up with Operation Mongoose, since that would have been disrespectful to Emma.  It does sting a little that Emma tried to start Operation Nightshade with him in Episode 2, but he completely rejected her, and yet he's so gung-ho about Operation Mongoose with Regina.  Not sure if there was supposed to be a connection with Anna telling Charming in Ep 2 that "surviving is not living" and Hook telling Emma that he's good at surviving in Ep 3.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

Not sure if there was supposed to be a connection with Anna telling Charming in Ep 2 that "surviving is not living" and Hook telling Emma that he's good at surviving in Ep 3.

 

That's really interesting Camera One.  I never caught that.  It does make sense however, given what Hook's character has been through.  Sitting around in Neverland is not exactly living, is it?  And 200 years being hell bent on vengeance is not living either.  He was just surviving.  I can throw in his line to Emma about how there's always a crisis and she'll miss out on own life (which is exactly what he has done for two centuries).

 

I find re-watching the shows, especially once we know what happens helps put things back into perspective.  I'm rewatching Season 3 right now.

[Camera One]

I can throw in his line to Emma about how there's always a crisis and she'll miss out on own life (which is exactly what he has done for two centuries).

 

The thing I didn't like about that line is that it was too similar to what Charming told Emma in 3A.  "Rocky Road" was strange since half of it Emma was frustrated with her inability to save anybody, and then half of it Emma was afraid for Hook's life.  I guess those two were sort of linked in a way since she was able to use her magic properly when Hook's life was at risk, but I still sort of wish that was covered in two separate episodes.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

The thing I didn't like about that line is that it was too similar to what Charming told Emma in 3A.  "Rocky Road" was strange since half of it Emma was frustrated with her inability to save anybody, and then half of it Emma was afraid for Hook's life.  I guess those two were sort of linked in a way since she was able to use her magic properly when Hook's life was at risk, but I still sort of wish that was covered in two separate episodes.

 

It's one of those things that I wanna say sort of came out of nowhere as well.  I mean when did she decide that he was too important for her to lose?  Was it when she saved his life at the expense of her magic?  I mean she really lost her magic so that Regina can save the day, but Hook was the plot point they used for that.  

 

And magic is emotion too and Emma was clearly pissed when she confronted Ingrid.  When she decided to send Hook to the station using Elsa, was it because she saw what happened to Marian and how a TLK didn't save her because the freezing curse was "acting" as a barrier and she thought there was no way to save him if something like that happened to him?  It's like suddenly, she didn't want him to tag along even though she contacted him when the ice wall sprung up and knocked the power off.

 

i wish they'd flesh character motivation out more.

[Mathius]

When she said, "Anna and Elsa must know the truth.  It's the only thing that will save them."  Save them from what?  So letting Ingrid out of the urn and letting Arendelle know the truth about the 3 sisters will save Elsa and Anna?  How exactly?

It would save them from ending up like her, Helga and Ingrid. Gerda was afraid that, if they didn't know the truth and didn't set Ingrid free, then either Elsa would end up accidentally killing Anna like Ingrid did to Helga (which almost happened) or Anna's fear of Elsa's powers would drive them apart like with Gerda and Ingrid.