A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[KingOfHearts]

 

What are the other biggest?

 

Making Regina a victim, skipping over the effects of the Missing Year, and the 2B setup are the big ones on my list.

 

 

She literally was no closer to belief in 1x21 than she was in 1x01, crying out "Henry, this isn't a story!" There was no "journey to belief", she just suddenly believed in 1x22.

 

I thought Emma began to look really dumb by the end of the season. With all the signs of weirdness, she still didn't come to the conclusion something strange was going on. Believing in a curse takes a lot I know, but some stuff was just unexplainable. She should have suspected something. She just thought Regina was going to let her go? Really? Her whole decision to leave in 1x22 was contrived.

Edited September 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Yeah--Emma began to look stupid towards the end of Season 1, and I agree that her decision to leave Storybrooke felt so contrived. So, Archie suddenly decided that Regina would never hurt Henry, and Emma believed him despite everything that happened before? Right... However, I still think S1 was pretty good overall. 

 

I think despite planning this Show for eight years or whatever, Emma herself was a tacked-on character. That's why A&E seem to have little interest to write for her. I think the original idea was to kill Charming, and have Snow White (and possibly their daughter) escape through the Wardrobe. True Love's Kiss between Snow and Emma could have been the one to break the Curse. That explains why they give us a million Regina/Snow flashbacks. They probably tried to fit their original creative vision into this new mold, but the misshapen bits keep sticking out.  

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think despite planning this Show for eight years or whatever, Emma herself was a tacked-on character.

I remember hearing them say in an interview that through all the script changes, it was always about Emma coming to town and meeting mayor Regina. Emma was probably meant to be the anchor to the real world and the curse breaker, but that's it. Since they no longer care about the real world, that part's gone. Now since Regina is the Savior instead, the other is gone too. So now we're left with a character that has very little relevance to the overall structure of the show.

 

 

So, Archie suddenly decided that Regina would never hurt Henry, and Emma believed him despite everything that happened before? Right... However, I still think S1 was pretty good overall.

S1 is still the best season. Emma's arc wasn't nearly as badly drawn as her NY one in 3B.

Edited September 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

The big thing that made Emma's disbelief work for me was the fight with August in the woods in 1x20. That was when I realized that Emma's disbelief wasn't so much disbelief as it was abject denial. She was metaphorically sticking her fingers in her ears, closing her eyes, and humming so hard that it was blinding her to what was literally right in front of her face. There August was, standing there with a leg that was turning to freakin' wood, and she couldn't even see it. Because she didn't want to see it.

 

My headcanon, coming out of that moment, is that starting from the end of "Hat Trick," Emma had started to consider the possibility that it was true ... and it scared the absolute shit out of her. So it was "Lalala, can't hear you" from then on out because not seeing it and not believing it was safe, until Henry collapsed from eating a poisoned apple turnover. Then magic was pushed back into the mix for her because it was the only thing that made any kind of freaking sense (because real-world poisons don't act the way the apple did).

[Rumsy4]

I remember hearing them say in an interview that through all the script changes, it was always about Emma coming to town and meeting mayor Regina. Emma was probably meant to be the anchor to the real world and the curse breaker, but that's it. 

 

The Emma/Regina confrontation could have been planned after they had created Emma as a character in their re-imagined vision. Because I remember an interview where they said that the original germ of their idea was the question of where the Evil Queen could get her Happy Ending (which incidentally makes me think that the endgame is Storybrooke).

 

 

Since they no longer care about the real world, that part's gone. Now since Regina is the Savior instead, the other is gone too. So now we're left with a character that has very little relevance to the overall structure of the show.

 

I agree. Emma  does not hold distinct relevance to the story anymore. It's a real shame. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

That was when I realized that Emma's disbelief wasn't so much disbelief as it was abject denial.

I agree with this. My problem with her in 1x20-1x22 was her inconsistency regarding Henry. First she wanted to get him out of the town of crazies ASAP, then two episodes later she wanted to leave him with Regina. She was going to leave not only him, but Mary Margaret and all the other people she had befriended in Storybrooke. It was fast and impulsive, and it was really only thrown in there for the apple turnover twist.

 

 

Because I remember an interview where they said that the original germ of their idea was the question of where the Evil Queen could get her Happy Ending (which incidentally makes me think that the endgame is Storybrooke).

 

Storybrooke is so temporary though. It's not meant to be there. All it takes is another Big Bad to come along to cast another curse or rip the current one. As far as the Evil Queen's happy ending goes, my theory is while everyone else goes back to EF, Regina will move to the Real World. (Possibly with a love interest.)

Edited September 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

One of A&E's earliest "WTF?" statements was that they held off until the end for the curse to break because "Emma's journey to belief had to feel earned." To which I reply: how was it earned? She literally was no closer to belief in 1x21 than she was in 1x01, crying out "Henry, this isn't a story!" There was no "journey to belief", she just suddenly believed in 1x22.

 

I found this as well.  I don't think mid-Season 1 would have been as much of a slog if Emma's journey WAS earned and a bit more gradual.  

 

 

 

The week before the S1 season finale, I was convinced that the finale twist was going to be Charming remembering, and the first half of S2 was going to be him and Emma teaming up to try to help everyone else remember. That could have been a great storyline, not least because it would've given the show the Charming/Emma bonding it really needed much earlier.

 

I would have liked Emma to believe first, maybe when she kissed Henry in the Season 1 finale.  I would have liked a few episodes of Emma being the only one to believe, and then looking at Storybrooke, Mary Margaret, David, Regina, etc. with fresh eyes now that she believes and knows that she was NOT abandoned for no reason, and maybe she can now see "hints" of who people were like Henry after he got his storybook.  Like she could look at Archie, and briefly see a cricket if she wanted to.  Which would help her on her quest to get everyone's memories back.

 

I also expected and wanted David to be the first person to remember, sometime in the fall stretch of Season 2.  Because Emma already had a relationship with Mary Margaret, it made sense for her to get to know Charming next, and maybe helping to repair his relationship with Mary Margaret, which could lead to some funny episodes.  

 

And Emma and David could also work on the underground battle against Regina, and each episode could have someone new "remembering", and each person might provide Emma with a piece of the puzzle to help defeat Regina and to end the Curse.  I expected stealinghome's scenario above, where for example, Red might remember and fill Emma in on some weakness of Regina's (and also her history with her mom), and we would also see Red struggling to deal with Memoryless Granny.  When Gepetto remembers, then he can actually have a proper episode with August.  Then Regina discovers later in the season and kills August, if we keep the cast changes the same.

 

It could also be Emma who saves Belle from the underground prison, and Rumple would owe her.   Yes, the pace would be a whole lot slower, which I'm sure some people would hate, but I personally don't mind the slow pace, as long as there was a new twist to it, and it would allow us to see Emma's journey now that she knows the truth about her past and BEFORE everything gets hectic with being on the edge of death every episode.

 

If for S2, they had Ep 1-3 with only Emma knowing, Ep 4 David remembers, technically, they could have everyone remember by Ep 16 and then have the Team Princess in the last third of Season 2 to show Emma what her life would have been like and to hash out the Emma/Snow stuff now that Snow remembers.  Then, Cora and Hook would sail into Storybrooke in the Season 2 finale.  Season 3 could have a better version of Rumple being reunited with Baelfire, Snow/Charming establishing a new order in Storybrooke, and fighting Cora WITHOUT magic, the start of Regina's redemption by turning on Cora, and the whole debate about whether they should go back to the Enchanted Forest or not.  Season 4 would be Neverland with Peter Pan and the start of Rumple's redemption, ending with "Going Home" where everyone except Emma and Henry are transported back to the Enchanted Forest finally.  Season 5 would be Oz.  

 

Anyway, since all this was not in A&E's vision, the easiest way to "fix" Season 2, was what Mathius said, which was to NOT bring magic back in Season 2.  This would solve the major problem, of preventing a complete imbalance of power between the villains (Regina, Cora, Rumple) with the protagonists.  They could still have done the same general plotline.  The medallion was a magical object, so Rumple could summon the Wraith without having full-out magic.  He could have some magical net over the well to kill whoever came through.  They could find some magical needles to prick Charming with, etc.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Camera One

[ShadowFacts]

 

I thought Emma began to look really dumb by the end of the season. With all the signs of weirdness, she still didn't come to the conclusion something strange was going on. Believing in a curse takes a lot I know, but some stuff was just unexplainable. She should have suspected something. She just thought Regina was going to let her go? Really? Her whole decision to leave in 1x22 was contrived.

 

What doesn't compute with me regarding Emma's belief is that in New York, despite an even more grounded type of life with Henry and not witnessing any of the nuttiness of Storybrooke, she drank the potion a weird piratey stranger gave her. 

[Jean]

Henry's the real savior. My guess is that their true story was a dead Charming and Woegina baby-napping Snow's kid to raise as her own while Snow got to interact with him not knowing it's her kid as the revenge. That's the type of soap opera triteness they excel in. Then Henry the kid would've been trying to convince a cursed Snow.

Network execs said no to a hot dead Prince Charming cause hello demos and said no to an annoying kid as a lead cause that never works out unless you're on the Disney channel. We need a tough female with perfect flowing blonde locks and Emma is born. We need real world stuff cause pure fantasy is risky. Thow in some procedural format and we have a show.

S1 was a fantasy show with some procedural stuff and world building. Now it's just straight up Days of Woegina's life. Every show has some soap opera elements in it but it also has a bigger picture, context or world to put those in. Once has stripped all of their world down to being a pure daytime soap now. Without the budget they'd probably fit better on daytime than primetime.

That's why they don't care about mythology, world building, rules, continuity, logic, timeline etc. because soaps don't care about stuff like that. They just want to do the back from the dead wife/husband, marriage and baby dramas, who's the daddy drama, evil long lost relatives, evil twins, scene chewing for the sake of scene chewing etc.

[Camera One]

My guess is that their true story was a dead Charming and Woegina baby-napping Snow's kid to raise as her own while Snow got to interact with him not knowing it's her kid as the revenge

Interesting idea.  When I watched the pilot when it premiered, I actually thought in the first quarter of the episode that maybe Henry was Snow and Charming's kid.  

[myril]

The big thing that made Emma's disbelief work for me was the fight with August in the woods in 1x20. That was when I realized that Emma's disbelief wasn't so much disbelief as it was abject denial. She was metaphorically sticking her fingers in her ears, closing her eyes, and humming so hard that it was blinding her to what was literally right in front of her face. There August was, standing there with a leg that was turning to freakin' wood, and she couldn't even see it. Because she didn't want to see it.

 

My headcanon, coming out of that moment, is that starting from the end of "Hat Trick," Emma had started to consider the possibility that it was true ... and it scared the absolute shit out of her. So it was "Lalala, can't hear you" from then on out because not seeing it and not believing it was safe, until Henry collapsed from eating a poisoned apple turnover. Then magic was pushed back into the mix for her because it was the only thing that made any kind of freaking sense (because real-world poisons don't act the way the apple did).

 

Dr. Frankenstein / Whale wouldn't have  persuaded me so easily that no poison was involved, leading to suddenly feel enlightened, that it must be magic. Had to grin, when Emma shouted arsenic and bleach at Whale. Something like cyanide (apple seeds!) or aconitum (wolf's bane) would have been more likely, though maybe not the stuff a modern person would thing of.

 

But I mostly had the same thoughts about Emma's reaction to what August told her in the woods, not disbelief but denial. 

Which might be better explained by what we eventually will get to see now in season 4, Emma eventually having had negative experience with her own magic, accidentally harming someone.

Edited September 27, 2014 by katusch

[YaddaYadda]

What doesn't compute with me regarding Emma's belief is that in New York, despite an even more grounded type of life with Henry and not witnessing any of the nuttiness of Storybrooke, she drank the potion a weird piratey stranger gave her. 

 

I've wondered about that.  I know Emma drinks because Hook says something Henry always says about trusting her gut, but that reason comes off as weak imo.  I know Emma had a lifetime of fake memories with Henry, but she did exactly what I'm sure she told her son not to do a million times, don't eat or drink anything that a stranger gives you.

 

New York Serenade should have been 2 episodes (or 1.5 episodes) instead of 1 when they decided to race from A to B.  Let's get her back to Storybrooke ASAP so that we can move the plot to Zelena and Regina.

[Dani-Ellie]

Dr. Frankenstein / Whale wouldn't have  persuaded me so easily that no poison was involved, leading to suddenly feel enlightened, that it must be magic.

 

I don't think it was so much that no poison was involved (because there was a poison, just not a real-world one), but more that most poisons don't generally make a person collapse on contact like that. Some poisons are more fast-acting than others but usually a person who was poisoned would show physical symptoms as the body tried to rid itself of the poison. For Henry to be perfectly fine one minute, walking and talking and showing no physical symptoms, and then down on the floor unconscious the next, with no physical symptoms beyond the unconsciousness ... well, that's odd enough that I can imagine her remembering Henry's poison apple theory as she tried to mentally go over what happened and finally letting the connections fire off in her brain.

 

Since the denial was already there, that suggests she was at a point where she could believe it; she just didn't want to because it terrified her. This time, I think she wanted to believe, because not believing was more terrifying. At least believing gave her a possible solution: get Regina to fix it.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Mathius]

I think A&E are perfectly fine as script writers. They were fine as staff on Lost and the episodes they've written for this show are above the average episodes for Once. It's their vision and plotting that sucks. Big time. As show producers they're too myopic.

Yeah, that's what I meant. A&E are solid scriptwriters and so are the majority of the staff like Jane Espensen. But A&E's creative vision that the whole operation runs under has gone completely wonky past S1, with only 3A managing to maintain a solid foundation. And nothing the other writers on the staff can do can really fix that; what the show runners say goes.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

In light of the rewatch ABC suggests, this is a list of rewatches for each cast member and Big Bad. If you have a favorite character you want to watch for a whole afternoon, here's a list of episodes that features that character. There are six episodes in each marathon, with the S3 finale being counted as one. Each one touches on all three seasons. This list is far from perfect, so feel free to critique it. Some perfectly good centrics were cut out to fit the six-episode limit. 

 

I've hidden it in a spoiler tag so the page isn't flooded!

 

Snow:
Snow Falls, The Stable Boy, An Apple Red as Blood, The Queen is Dead, Lost Girl, There's No Place Like Home

 

Charming:

Snow Falls, The Shepherd, What Happened to Frederick, We Are Both, Lady of the Lake, The Tower

 

Neal:
Tallahassee, Manhattan, Second Star To the Right, Straight On Til' Morning, Nasty Habits, Quiet Minds

 

Emma:
Pilot, Land Without Magic, Tallahassee, Queen of Hearts, New York City Serenade, There's No Place Like Home

 

Hook:
The Crocodile, Tallahassee, Straight On Til' Morning, Good Form, The Jolly Roger, There's No Place Like Home

 

Regina:
The Thing You Love Most, The Stable Boy, An Apple Red as Blood, The Doctor, Quite a Common Fairy, Witch Hunt

 

Rumple:
The Price of Gold, Desperate Souls, The Return, The Crocodile, Manhattan, It's Not Easy Being Green

 

Belle:
Skin Deep, The Crocodile, The Outsider, Lacey, Dark Hollow, Quiet Minds

 

Henry:
The Pilot, That Still Small Voice, Into The Deep, Manhattan, The Heart of the Truest Believer, New York City Serenade

 

Pan:

The Heart of the Truest Believer, Nasty Habits, Good Form, Think Lovely Thoughts, Save Henry, Going Home

 

Zelena:

Witch Hunt, The Tower, Quiet Minds, It's Not Easy Being Green, Bleeding Through, Kansas

 

Cora:

The Stable Boy, We Are Both, Queen of Hearts, In the Name of the Brother, The Miller's Daughter, Bleeding Through

Edited September 28, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Nice idea.  I think I might replace Rumple's last episode with "Think Lovely Thoughts".  The only other one I might have chosen differently is Emma's... "Lost Girl" in lieu of "New York City Serenade", which felt more like a Captain Swan episode than an Emma episode, and maybe "Manhattan" in lieu of "Queen of Hearts" if only because Jennifer Morrison gave such a heart-breaking performance there.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I've been at a science fiction convention, and the topic of this show came up several times (and not initiated by me!), sometimes in the context of "I heard they're doing Frozen" and sometimes in the context of "shows I've lost track of and may need to catch up on eventually." Strangely, in all these conversations, I was the only person still watching the show regularly. In the interest of science, I asked people when and why they quit watching. It seemed like all of them fell away about three quarters of the way through season two, whether they were watching live on ABC or watching via Hulu or Netflix later. Some of them couldn't really give a reason they quit watching. It was just that they never got around to watching the next episode. With those people, it was a little harder to pin down when they quit because they just didn't care enough to continue, so they hadn't given it much thought, but I did manage to narrow it down by bringing up events and seeing if they remembered. I think as a writer I'd be most concerned about the viewers lost not because they disliked it but because they just couldn't be bothered. The ones who quit for a reason quit at about the same time, and generally for Regina-related reasons, though one was very specific about giving up the show because they turned the awesome Bandit Snow into a wimp when suddenly she's the one groveling to Regina and the show is making it seem like Regina's the victim.

 

Which brings me to this from the Spoilers thread (though not a spoiler):

But until the day she bursts out sugary sweetness and an ability to be kind and loving and giving and gosh-darn perfect to everyone, I'm going to hold off on "Mary Sue".   In a purely definitional sense, I don't think she qualifies.

It depends on which definition you're using, but I think in general the sugary sweetness and being practically perfect in every way is more of an issue of the execution of a Mary Sue, not part of the definition. A Mary Sue mostly comes down to the character the writer can't be objective about, usually but not necessarily always because it's a self-insertion. I don't know if it's a societal cultural shift or the increasing ease in which fanfic can be shared (and then even published for profit, if you file off the serial numbers and change the names) so that there's not even the vetting of a fanzine and people are sharing their darker internal fantasies, but it seems to me that the typical Mary Sue has gone from being the new ensign on the Enterprise whom everyone just loves and who saves the day while the regular characters stand around helplessly to being an angsty victim. Today's typical Mary Sue is a survivor of abuse and/or rape, and because of this she's given a free pass on all her terrible behavior. She's not well-liked because no one understands how special she is, until that one super-hot guy who sounds a lot like a popular actor, movie/TV/book character, or boy band member discovers her and sees how special she is, that she's not like other girls.

 

And what's funny is that on paper, the character concept of Emma sounds like that kind of Mary Sue in that she's got the difficult family (or lack thereof) background, has the emotional walls, has the specialness in being the product of True Love and the daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming, and Captain Hook sees her specialness and falls so madly in love with her that he stops being evil and becomes a good guy. It sounds like fan fiction. But in execution, she's not at all Mary Sue because she doesn't get a free pass, she faces consequences, and she's frequently shoved out of the way for most resolutions by the show's real Mary Sue, the character for whom continuity means nothing (no one else can love without their heart -- that's even been a major plot point -- but she can do a True Love's Kiss and wield light magic that comes only from love without her heart). She not only gets the love and affection of an iconic character, she's drawn him away from his canon pairing. She has flaws, but they're disregarded or re-framed (bold and audacious!). That's why I consider Regina a Mary Sue -- she's the character who doesn't have to abide by the rules of this universe and the story keeps getting twisted to keep her on top while still considering her a victim.

[Fable]

Hmmm…I really don't know what to say here.  At the end of last season, I swore I was done, but of course, my obsessive-compulsive side led me to watch. 

 

The thing is, I don't think the show is bad, but I wonder if it is good enough for me to keep watching.  There are few shows I have hate watched, but I'd really rather watch a show I enjoy and prefer to quit before it comes down to that. 

 

On this show, I think most of the characters are interesting, I like most of them and I feel like I want to know what happens with them. I can't even say the writing is horrible (for children's TV), but on the whole, I think the series, in comparison with Season 1, has turned into a Disney movie.  Don't get me wrong, I like Disney movies, obviously, or I would probably never tuned into this show, but at my age (no you don't get to ask), a Disney movie now and then is okay, but I really don't want to watch a Disney movie every week.

[Souris]

In the interest of science, I asked people when and why they quit watching. It seemed like all of them fell away about three quarters of the way through season two, whether they were watching live on ABC or watching via Hulu or Netflix later. Some of them couldn't really give a reason they quit watching. It was just that they never got around to watching the next episode. ... The ones who quit for a reason quit at about the same time, and generally for Regina-related reasons, though one was very specific about giving up the show because they turned the awesome Bandit Snow into a wimp when suddenly she's the one groveling to Regina and the show is making it seem like Regina's the victim.

 

Interesting. That seems to dovetail with the ratings drop in S2 and definitely suggests a correlation. Anecdotal evidence, but it fits the ratings pattern. A lot of us here really didn't like the latter part of S2, and it sounds like we're not alone. It's unfortunate that A&E seem to have learned nothing from that and even seem like they're in danger of going down the same path in S4, only with Emma in the Snow role this time. I think they completely have a blind spot when it comes to Regina Sue. They love her so much that they don't see or accept that others don't see her in the same way, so they just keep doing the same stuff over and over with her. It's their show, so it's up to them to do what they will, of course -- but viewers will ultimately vote with their remotes (or computers). We'll see how the Frozen ratings surge holds up balanced against the usual storylines. Though new viewers won't be treated to seeing or hearing about Regina's crimes, so they may be more open to her being presented as the show's ultimate victim.

[Camera One]

Though new viewers won't be treated to seeing or hearing about Regina's crimes, so they may be more open to her being presented as the show's ultimate victim.

 

So I just watched the Recap Special (darn it for no other shows I could watch tonight).  

 

Eddy's expressionless reading of the script was a little unsettling.  

 

As I always say for recap shows, sometimes, it does make the show more exciting and better than it actually is.  And the flashbacks are so perfect for recapping... I mean, they even included that brief scene of Emma at the foster home.  From the show, it actually makes it seem like the show explored Emma's conception of home and it gave me the warm fuzzies mixed with raging anger making me want to throw teacups against the wall.

 

Regina's story was told in a 7 minute stretch, all the way from "The Stable Boy", and it was quite sympathetically portrayed.  From watching Daniel killed, to magic lessons with Rumple where "Regina was reluctant to embrace the Dark Side", with a recap of Tinkerbelle & Regina... there was only one brief scene from the Regina-hunting-Snow era, when she was giving that speech to the villagers about telling her where Snow is (from the S3 finale, not the village massacre episode).  Then Eddy explained how in Storybrooke, Regina realized a life of revenge was empty.  Exactly when did Regina come to this realization again?  She might have found life in Storybrooke empty, but she certainly didn't realize seeking revenge was an empty experience.  Plus she had no regrets.  The Regina journey continued with her "join(ing) forces with the heroes" in Neverland and how when Peter Pan cast another Curse, "Regina stepped up".  At this point, either A&E in the voiceover stated, "She had changed."  Also at this point, I fell into a laughing fit.  A few more great quotes.  From Eddy: "She ended up making heroic decisions", as they recapped Regina and Robin Hood in the missing year.  From narrator: "Regina had evolved but she found it difficult to let people in".  

 

So overall, the recap special really does make you feel badly for Regina, all about how she felt she would never get her happy ending. 

 

If you're wondering about the other characters:

- Emma got ~2 min, 30 seconds for her story in the recap.  Probably because there was no Nealfire to be seen or mentioned.

- Rumple got ~5 min.  Apparently, Belle's "superpower" is she can see the real person beneath everything.  LOL.  So it's all about the struggle "between his lust for power and his PURE love from Belle".  Uh, if that's pure love, I don't want to see unpure love.

- Snowing got ~5 min (hey, more than they got on the actual show!)

- Zelena and 3B got ~5 min (not sure why they felt the need to recap Zelena's irrelevant sob story but not show Rumple killing her)

- Season 3 Finale + Captain Swan were discussed together and got 6 min.  "Emma never thought about the consequences of messing with time travel and the past"... riiiight...

 

The brief scenes they included of Marion from the finale actually made her seem a little annoying.

 

A&E ended by talking about home and saying that "these fairy tale characters are realizing this crazy town in Maine is their home."  Huh?  So now everyone has realized they want to stay?  Since when?

 

Let's end with a line which really resonated with me, from Adam: "What we were REALLY interested in, was... why was the Wicked Witch green?"  

Edited September 30, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I love your post, Camera One, particularly this gem: 

 

 

Let's end with a line which really resonated with me, from Adam: "What we were REALLY interested in, was... why was the Wicked Witch green?"

[stealinghome]

Though new viewers won't be treated to seeing or hearing about Regina's crimes, so they may be more open to her being presented as the show's ultimate victim.

I don't know, though. Even in 4x01, we got flashbacks of Regina sentencing an obviously innocent Marian to death and gloating about it sadistically, and we got, in the present, Regina bitching that a dead woman was spared from being unjustly murdered, Regina halfway to murdering said woman, and Regina enslaving Sidney in the mirror again without a second thought (and it being made clear that she'd been imprisoning him for some time in the jail cell). If I was a new viewer, I honestly think I'd still be side-eyeing Woegina.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't know, though. Even in 4x01, we got flashbacks of Regina sentencing an obviously innocent Marian to death and gloating about it sadistically

 

I particularly liked her quip about wanting Marian's head on a spike.  She should have stopped talking while she was "ahead", after she made the comment about peasant smell.

[Mari]

I don't know, though. Even in 4x01, we got flashbacks of Regina sentencing an obviously innocent Marian to death and gloating about it sadistically, and we got, in the present, Regina bitching that a dead woman was spared from being unjustly murdered, Regina halfway to murdering said woman, and Regina enslaving Sidney in the mirror again without a second thought (and it being made clear that she'd been imprisoning him for some time in the jail cell). If I was a new viewer, I honestly think I'd still be side-eyeing Woegina.

Me?  I'd be looking at it with squinty eyes.  However, in-show, they've pretty regularly treated Regina and the Evil Queen like they're wacky identical cousins.  They look alike, but the actions of one never seem to taint the minds of the characters around them, or of the writers.

 

New viewers might find it off-putting, but I'm not sure the show--particularly A & E and Parilla, based on the interview and recap snippets--fully realize how creepy it is that they're deliberately trying to woobify someone that just gloated over her murderous plans.  The people in charge of bringing Regina to life seem to completely buy into it, and they frame the story in such a way that not everyone realizes right away what they're doing--a lot of viewers just know "I don't like this." and quit, or they buy into it. 

[stealinghome]

New viewers might find it off-putting, but I'm not sure the show--particularly A & E and Parilla, based on the interview and recap snippets--fully realize how creepy it is that they're deliberately trying to woobify someone that just gloated over her murderous plans.

Oh, I totally agree! Don't get me wrong, I think Adam and Eddie and Parrilla are totally oblivious to how f'ed up their morality is when it comes to Regina. I was just responding to someone who asked about new viewers tuning in and whether they'd fall for the "Saint Regina is the Biggest Victim EVAR!" crap. I agree that the presentation of Regina in 4x01 was extremely biased, but I do think there's enough there to give a new viewer pause about jumping on the Woegina train.

[Rumsy4]

Before I stated posting at TWoP, I discussed ONCE in a facebook group where people discussed all TV shows. While some people were avid watchers of the Show, none of them were obsessed. Many of them stopped watching around or after Season 2, mostly because they found the writing bad. I went back to check on the general consensus of 4.01. Most of them are sick and tired of Regina's flip-flops. I would love to see what a brand new viewer thinks.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Rumsy4

[SilverShadow]

A post in another topic made me curious to see where we all fall in our opinions on this.

 

For me 3A is easily the best-it reintroduces a bunch of plot and character threads that season 2 glossed over and ignored, introdcued new characters I liked, and had a really satisfying finale.

 

Worst for me is also pretty easy-2B without a doubt. Regina's moral flip-flopping was tiresome, Greg was introduced and then did nothing for several episodes, the lack of followup to Neal/Bae coming back into Gold and Emma's lives, and August and Tamara being the absolute worst. Blech. There's some scattered good episodes, but overall arc is not good. I do like the last two episodes, but more for the flashbacks than anything else.

[KingOfHearts]

I totally agree on 2B. My second least favorite goes to 3B.

 

I had a hard time choosing between 3A and 2A for best, but ultimately chose 2A. I enjoyed it more, I suppose. The show still had a "spark" going there. Although many people like the slower pacing in 3A, me included, I still found it boring because of the uninteresting storylines and monotonous settings. It wasn't very rewatchable. 2A, however, was pretty good about balancing action out with character moments. The show hadn't truly hit the tipping point until that arc ended.

Edited October 1, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

It seems to be the general consensus, not just here but all over the place, that the "A" arcs of both seasons were solid while the "B" arcs were letdowns. I'm not saying this is everyone's opinion, of course (there are some that hate 3A and love 3B, for example) but it certainly seems to be the majority opinion.

 

And it's one I also subscribe to. I too must vote 3A as best and 2B as worst.  I have not and never will make any secret how much I love the Neverland arc of 3A.  It certainly has its faults (so many damn MacGuffins!) but it has far more strength and actually uses the entire core cast well, highlights their development, strengths and weaknesses (Emma especially has a great time coming into her own through almost every episode), has a fantastic villain in Robbie Kay's Peter Pan, and ends in one of the most amazing episodes in the series: "Going Home", which could have been a satisfying finale to the whole show. 2B was awful for all the reasons everyone usually say, with the exception of "Manhattan" through "The Miller's Daughter" of course.

 

2A was very tight and had a clear focus in both the EF and Storybrooke, but a single very weak episode placed at the height of momentum keeps it from perfection: "Child of the Moon", with it's enormous squandering of the David vs. Albert Spencer plotline that could have sustained more episodes and given David his much-needed centric for the season.  And as for 3B, I found it had a strong beginning ("New York City Serenade" and "Witch Hunt"), middle ("The Jolly Roger"), and end ("Snow Drifts" and "There's No Place Like Home"), but everything else tended to suck, and even the end suffered from having very little connection to what came before.

[FurryFury]

2B was awful for all the reasons everyone usually say, with the exception of "Manhattan" through "The Miller's Daughter" of course.

 

While "The Miller's Daughter" is my favorite episode of the whole show, I don't actually agree on "Manhattan". I found it way overrated. The Rumple bits are OK, but not that awesome to overshadow the shitty stuff - I mean Neal. Anything and everything concerning Neal in that episode is completely awful and made me want to barf. I even almost quit the show in 2B because I was this close to being convinced Neal/Emma is the endgame pairing, and I considered that unacceptable.

[Amerilla]

3B was so unremittingly, remorselessly, head-poundingly, teeth-gnashingly awful in every single way, 2B retroactively turned into Shakespeare in my mind. 

[YaddaYadda]

I don't really understand why they tried to rush through 3B like that.  I get they wanted to do the time travel, but they could have just gone about the whole 3B so differently, like not made Zelena Regina's half-sister, so that I (we) didn't have to suffer through some of those really bad episodes like Bleeding Through. 

 

I don't think they have just a problem with the writing, I think they also have a problem with organizing their stories.  They know they have 11 episodes and they choose to fill those episodes with drivel that makes no sense. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

While "The Miller's Daughter" is my favorite episode of the whole show, I don't actually agree on "Manhattan". I found it way overrated.

Yay! Someone who agrees with me. I didn't like Manhattan at all. Too much drama, not enough payoff.  Miller's Daughter is one of my favorite episodes.

Edited October 1, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

As for the worst, I can't decide between 2B and 3B. I came close to quitting after both. 2B was a gigantic mess of dropped plots and Woegina flip-flops. 3B was jump one shark after another. There was no connection between the half-season opener/ender and the middle episodes, and they did so many resets (storywise and emotional) that it gave me mental whiplash. 3A had easily the best arc, and the reason I decided to give the show another chance after Season 2. Overall, I am more disappointed with 3B because 3A gave me false-hope that the show was getting better. haha

 

ETA: I loved Manhattan and Miller's Daughter. And of course, the Hook/Bae flashback in Straight On Till Morning. As for 3B, I loved the half-season premier and the two-part finale. Tallahasse and The Crocodile in 2A, and Going Home and Good Form in 3A were also great. 

Edited October 1, 2014 by Rumsy4

[InsertWordHere]

Manhattan still disgusts me to this day. That episode, along with The Cricket Game, were the tipping points for this show's downward spiral, IMO.

 

One thing I will say for 2B over 3B is that it did a better job of setting things up going into the next season. As disappointed as I was by the Home Office arc, gosh darnit, I was excited to see all the Nevengers on a ship going off to Save Henry. I really couldn't wait for 3A because I wanted to see them all interact and work together. 3B, OTOH, left me with nothing but a vague desire to see CS in a relationship and the hope that the writers will finally, finally develop the Charmings as a family. As I care nothing for Outlaw Queen, the new roadblock in their relationship did nothing for me, and in fact, as someone who grew up with Robin/Marian as an OTP and who also loves a good time travel story, actively offended me. I'm interested in Frozen but not in a "OMG, I can't wait to see what happens to Elsa and Anna" kind of way. Whereas with Neverland, though it's never been one of my favorite stories, I couldn't wait to see how they explored the history there (they didn't but that's not 2B's fault, I suppose).

Edited October 1, 2014 by InsertWordHere

[SilverShadow]

2A has some great material, but the first two episodes were such a dissapointment that it took awhile to build momentum. 3B is also my second-least favorite: too much Regina, too little everyone else, the squandering of Rapunzel, plot going in circles for way too long. I loved the 2-part finale but that was almost an arc unto itself. I could basically watch "New York Serenade, select scenes of "The Tower" (Charming being awesome), "The Jolly Roger," and "Snow Drifts/No Place Like Home" and not feel like I missed anything worthwhile.

Edited October 1, 2014 by SilverShadow

[myril]

3B was so unremittingly, remorselessly, head-poundingly, teeth-gnashingly awful in every single way, 2B retroactively turned into Shakespeare in my mind. 

Wish it would have been Shakespeare, some good Macbeth.

 

I couldn't bring myself to rewatch anything since 2B. I sometimes go into an episode for details, watch a specific scene, but have not one episode seen again all concentrated since the first watch. There are bits and pieces in a number of episodes I liked, but not one episode even remotely as a whole. But that is true as well for 2A, just that I liked the ongoing stories more. Emma and Snow stranded in the Enchanted Forest had potential,  I liked actually the dynamic between Aurora and Mulan, and between those two and Emma and Snow, Cora and Hook showing up made some sense and was fun. And guess I am one of the few who liked Child of the Moon, but Red is my fave character besides Emma, and I very much liked the friendship between Snow and Red, so, despite some weaknesses liked the episode. 3A had moments, but Snow and David were like a fifth wheel in Neverland, and when it became obvious, that Pan was Rumple's father I was pretty much done with the show. 3B was, well barely remember there was something. I could have found a sister rivalry and jealousy story even basically interesting, but Zelena just never grabbed me, and it was all so forced. It's funny, never had a problem when Buffy all of a sudden had a sister, sort of, I enjoyed that storyline to some degree,  liked the sisterly bonding and the over-the-top hell goddess Glory was fun, but I found little enjoyable about Zelena and why there out of the blue had to be a sister to Regina even a tad crazier than her. Whatever.

Edited October 1, 2014 by katusch

[stealinghome]

I think I have a slight preference for 2A over 3A (but agree that both half-seasons were MILES better than 2B and 3B). The story in 2A still had some momentum and cohesion, and while splitting the plot 3 ways didn't always work, I was at least always interested. And they hadn't yet a) thrown logic and continuity out the window and b) sacrificed everyone on Woegina's altar. Whereas 3A, I like the first 3 episodes and the last 2, but find a lot in the middle to be a slog. I think I liked 'Ariel' but that's about all I remember from the middle. (That said, I think Lost Girl and New Neverland are two of my all-time favorite episodes showcasing what Once does best, while the only truly standout episode from 2A is Broken, IMO.)

2B and 3B are horribly disappointing for me in different ways, but...I can't believe I'm saying this...I might take 2B over 3B if I had to endlessly rewatch one of them. The first half of 2B is unimpressive, but the show didn't get truly BAD until 'Welcome to Storybrooke.' So I could just rewatch Cricket Game to Miller's Daughter and be largely fine. Whereas 3B was bad pretty much from the get-go (the only episode I would even consider rewatching is The Tower, and that's largely because Charming hadn't gotten a centric in ages), and also just destroys so much of the show's mythology in the process of being bad. Way too much contrivance and our heroes being seriously stupid to further the plot--not to mention the plot holes. And I find 2B's Woegina overdrive to be super obnoxious, but 3B with rainbows and unicorns coming out her ass is almost as bad, so. (Plus I dislike Outlaw Queen and am apathetic to Captain Swan, which doesn't help.)

Plus I've said before that while 2B was bad, it at least still felt like the writers were trying. 3B felt like they didn't give a shit anymore. So maybe 2B was objectively worse, but 3B is more disappointing?

Edited October 2, 2014 by stealinghome

[Dani-Ellie]

I chose 2A over 3A for best because, despite my Captain Swan squealing teenage fangirl status, I am Charming Family fangirl first and foremost. Although we didn't have the Charmings together (which was frustrating to me at the time), we at least had forward momentum in the development of the relationship between Snow and Emma, a relationship that once upon a time (er, no pun intended) was my favorite part of this show. Ginny and Jen are magical together (imo, and also no pun intended ... geez!) and this little arc allowed them to showcase that chemistry. From Emma recognizing that meek little schoolteacher Mary Margaret Blanchard is actually badass Snow White who can fell an ogre with one freakin' arrow to Snow doing all the little mom things like immediately turning to make sure Emma's okay when the wraith makes the earthquake or shaking Emma by the shoulders like a little kid who'd wandered off in a store when she returned from the beanstalk, I just loved the two of them. Plus, "Queen of Hearts" is freakin' great.

 

3A, on the other hand, was the start of the imo anger-inducing writing for Snow and Charming that just got more and more dismissive of their firstborn, which made this Charming Family fangirl's heart ache. ;)

 

I also ended up choosing 3B over 2B as worst because although I did like certain things about 3B a lot (Chris Gorham! Charming/Emma dream sequence! Emma's own Back to the Future!), "Bleeding Through," "A Curious Thing," and "Kansas" piss me off so much that it's actually a physical reaction. I just can't with those episodes, for reasons I've ranted about at length.

[Mathius]

That said, I think Lost Girl and New Neverland are two of my all-time favorite episodes showcasing what Once does best, while the only truly standout episode from 2A is Broken, IMO.)

"Lost Girl", sure, but why "The New Neverland"? Its flashback was horrible, and present-day plot just build-up for next episode.

[Mari]

I also ended up choosing 3B over 2B as worst because although I did like certain things about 3B a lot (Chris Gorham! Charming/Emma dream sequence! Emma's own Back to the Future!), "Bleeding Through," "A Curious Thing," and "Kansas" piss me off so much that it's actually a physical reaction. I just can't with those episodes, for reasons I've ranted about at length.

Even Emma's own Back to the Future ended up being tainted by Emma's "carelessness"--bringing back Elsa and Marian and ruining Regina's happiness.

[Camera One]

"Lost Girl", sure, but why "The New Neverland"? Its flashback was horrible, and present-day plot just build-up for next episode.

 

Although I realized I was disappointed in 3A after my rewatch (I found it tedious to rewatch a second time), I do think "Lost Girl" and the ending of "Going Home" was very strong, and I also count "The New Neverland" as one of my favorites from 3A.  I actually liked the flashback.  It was a fun adventure with Snow and Charming, and I liked the message of enjoying the moments in between crises.  There were also nice character scenes in this episode between several characters, including the one between Emma and Charming at the docks, plus it was just nice to be back in Storybrooke with quick cameo scenes from many characters.  Evil Henry actually made Peter Pan interesting again.  I have no problem with set-up episodes, and often, I find them better than the "big finale" which sometimes disappoints.  

Edited October 2, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

"Lost Girl", sure, but why "The New Neverland"? Its flashback was horrible, and present-day plot just build-up for next episode.

I loved the fairybacks in "New Neverland." I watch this show for Snowing, and tend to adore the post-1x22, pre-pilot flashbacks we get of them. They just *glitter* in that time period, when they're together but before things really go to shit. That fairyback is also just pure swashbuckling (sassy) FUN, which we need more of on this show. I also found the present-day stuff more enthralling on the whole than "Going Home"--that episode has a great last 20 minutes, but the first half is horribly paced and somewhat ridiculously plotted (the Black Fairy's wand is like the ultimate McGuffin). The first half of "Going Home" embodies all the pitfalls the show tends to run into in Storybrooke--namely having people run around like idiotic chickens with no emotions whatsoever and bs magical fixes pulled out of a hat. Whereas "New Neverland" slows down and actually lets the characters *feel* and *process.* In a show that far too often treats its characters like automatons, it's so nice to get an episode that actually lets them have thoughts and feelings and conversations about their thoughts and feelings. I can't stress enough how much I value that--and how much I value that "New Neverland" is about Emma and the Charmings, which should, IMO, always be the focus of the show.

[Dani-Ellie]

Even Emma's own Back to the Future ended up being tainted by Emma's "carelessness"--bringing back Elsa and Marian and ruining Regina's happiness.

 

Well, yes, but if you stop it at the point Regina and Robin walk into Granny's, you get to ignore that part. ;)

[OnceUponSomeChaos]

I'm torn between the best and worst, because every season has definitely had a mixed bag. I have to rank most of 2B as "the worst" because I feel it had the most pointless plots, the absolute worst villains (who weren't even real villains but incompetent and boring minions of "The Home Office"), flip-flopping Woegine, and perhaps worst of all: that (to me) is when the show basically destroyed Snow/Mary Margaret's character, who had been the reason I started watching the show. Suddenly the strong person from the Enchanted Forest (who we saw glimmers of when she didn't even remember being Snow in season 1), became this passive person who showed more concern for Woegina then her own daughter. 

 

3A nailed the final nail in Snow's coffin (IMO) when she went from one episode declaring to spend the rest of her life proving to Emma she was loved (I forget the actual line, but it was in Lost Girl), to instantly being willing to abandon Emma forever (again) to stay in Neverland with Charming. Not even a second thought from the woman who a season prior jumped into a portal after Emma. 

3A did make David likeable again (and honestly, I never really liked David, though I loved Enchanted Forest Charming from season 1) and I admit to being a huge Captain Swan fan and also loved the Captain Charming bromance that began. I think the biggest issues of 3A were: A) the flashbacks were basically useless and unneeded, in a time I wanted to see Neverland flashbacks that actual... furthered the story) and B) they missed so much potential in plot in Neverland. We never saw Tink and Pan share screen time, the relationship between Hook and Bae was turned into a ridiculous and pointless love triangle after the amazing flashbacks in the season 2 finale, and the "dangers of Neverland" were almost nonexistent unless you actually attacked Pan or ran into a dreamshade bush. I don't know if they were afraid of ratings if it went "dark" but Pan turned into all talk and zero follow through while in Neverland and someone that psychotic should have done SOMETHING. Oh yeah, and the whole Panfather thing just made me roll my eyes...

I still think 1A has some of my favorite episodes and one of the stronger arcs (thought it's hard to judge b/c season 1 and 2 were written in as three-parters versus two arcs). Hat Trick (season 1) is still one of my favorite episodes, but I did love the time traveling in the last two of season 3 (it could have been horrible, but it allowed us to see the characters back in the EF when many were at their best/worst, and having Emma actually show emotion with the Captain Swan feels).

While I loved the end of 3B, I disliked most of Zelena's backstory and her episodes, however, because she just seemed... flat and pointless. I didn't like the "oh, surprise, you have a sister never even hinted at before" plot line because it lacked the originality that drew me to the series and instead was pretty much a straight cliche of every cliche that ever existed. And when you have a lacking villain (cough Greg cough Tamara cough cough) it's renders so much of those episodes useless. 

I have to say, I'm surprised that (so far) I don't mind the Frozen storyline of 4A. I'm aware we lost most of the premiere setting it up, and I'm hoping it doesn't continue to take much needed screen time away from the huge main cast and instead enhances them. I'm most concerned about the return of flip-flopping Woegina, who has gone from using white magic (yesterday) to enslaving Sydney in the mirror again (and supposedly having him locked up through not one but two curses....because they couldn't think of another creative reason for his absence??) and plotted time travel (hello, sacrifice of an innocent?, not to mention brain and heart stealing). Suddenly after four days (maybe a week tops) with Robin Hood, she's ready to lose it? Just ugh. I know Regina is the very epitome of self-centered, but it pretty much eliminates any character growth if she acts on it.

And I'm sorry but the "Do you want to build a snowman?" scene w/ Emma and Regina, where Emma promises to bring back the happy endings... and every writer seems to have forgotten that Emma's life was so damn miserable because REGINA enacted a curse, tried to kill Emma as an infant, nearly killed Charming, and is the reason she spent her life as a Lost Girl? She can blame her parents, but not Regina, never Regina.. (sigh)..

So I can't pick a favorite arc, though I loved 1A and watching Snowing develop in flashbacks, the battling between Regina and Emma, etc, because my favorite episodes are scattered throughout most of the half seasons, although 2B ranks the lowest overall for me.

[FabulousTater]

For me it's not so much as what was the better overall arc, because in one way or another I pretty much disliked all four arcs (2A, 2B, 3A, and 3B). IMO, what it comes down to is what arc I despised the least.
 

I chose 2A over 3A for best because, despite my Captain Swan squealing teenage fangirl status, I am Charming Family fangirl first and foremost. Although we didn't have the Charmings together (which was frustrating to me at the time), we at least had forward momentum in the development of the relationship between Snow and Emma, a relationship that once upon a time (er, no pun intended) was my favorite part of this show. Ginny and Jen are magical together (imo, and also no pun intended ... geez!) and this little arc allowed them to showcase that chemistry. From Emma recognizing that meek little schoolteacher Mary Margaret Blanchard is actually badass Snow White who can fell an ogre with one freakin' arrow to Snow doing all the little mom things like immediately turning to make sure Emma's okay when the wraith makes the earthquake or shaking Emma by the shoulders like a little kid who'd wandered off in a store when she returned from the beanstalk, I just loved the two of them. Plus, "Queen of Hearts" is freakin' great.

IA, Dani-Ellie. I have to go with 2A as the better arc because of all the reasons you mentioned. I think 3A is a very close second for "best" arc/least despised arc. Maybe even tied, IMO [ ETA: "Lost Girl" is easily one of my top 5 episodes of the series and one or two other eps in 3A also fill out my top 10 episodes of OUAT. So in that regard I think 3A is tied with 2A in terms of which is "better". But, Nealfire didn't stay dead in 3A like he should have, so points deducted! ;-) ]
 
As for the worst arc, I have a hard time choosing. I despised S2B and felt pretty much done with the whole show after the S2 finale. It was such crap all the way through. TBH, there's only one episode in 2B I would ever consider rewatching - "The Cricket Game". Not because it was all that great, but well, it wasn't all that terrible and at least it had Emma, Snow, and Charming talking and interacting in some meaningful ways, and since those are the relationships I was most looking forward to the show dealing with post S1, I was happy to at least have that much.

I know "Manhattan" is another generally well liked episode in the 2B stretch of eps, but here's the thing -- while I loved "Manhattan" because the writers finally(!), let Jennifer Morrison and Robert Carlyle off their leashes and gave them some really juicy material to work with and they freaking delivered (I floved their performances), I also hate "Manhattan" because of how the stories themselves unfolded. Doucehfire makes me seethe with anger (and plus freakin Henry I wanted to smack throughout the episode) and "Manhattan" was the start of all of that. Nealfire pisses me off so bad in that episode I wanna take a crowbar to my TV screen when he appears. So basically for me, there's almost zero rewatch value in S2B.
 
On the other hand, 3B has at least 4 episodes I would (and have) rewatched: "New York City Serenade", "Witch Hunt", "Snow Drifts" and "There's No Place Like Home" (well, minus the last few minutes of "There's No Place Like Home" because between Snowing naming the baby after the douchebag and Regina labeling Emma as the "Destroyer of Happiness", well, let's just say that if I ever start World War III, my opening salvo is going to be aimed at the OUAT writers' room ). So basing my opinion of the arc only on the sheer number of episodes that I would rewatch, 3B is better than 2B.
 
But having said that, S3B also has 3 episodes ("Bleeding Through", "A Curious Thing", and "Kansas") that piss me off so bad that I just....I....I can't.... There are not enough synonyms for the word "loathe" to describe how much I can't with those episodes. It's like Dante came back from the dead and added a 10th Circle of Hell and it's those three episodes (plus naming the baby after Douchefire)!!
 
See? How do I choose which sucks more based on all of that? Pfft, I'm just gonna vote for 2B as the worst just based on having the least number of re-watchable episodes, but IMO the real answer is both. Both 2B and 3B are equally bad, but for different reasons. 

Edited October 2, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

I actually had to do a pro/con list on this -- on paper! -- to decide.

 

I ended up going with 2A as best. I recall being disappointed in this one as it aired, but liked it a lot more than I remembered when I was rewatching. They did mostly squander the potential in dealing with the aftermath of the curse, and it was incredibly frustrating that they finally got Snow and Charming back together, only to rip them apart again. On the other hand, I loved getting Badass Bandit Snow back, I loved her relationship with Emma and Emma getting to see that side of her. The Team Princess stuff was fun, and while it was a lot of walking around in the woods, at least, unlike 3A, it was usually daylight and it wasn't the same five potted plants. While it did have a strong throughline in the goal of getting back home without allowing Cora to get to Storybrooke, there was more variety since not every episode was just about foiling Cora's latest scheme. That's where having Hook as a secondary villain (and sometimes ally) helped. I think they did a great job of introducing Hook, showing his flaws but also showing that he kind of had a point, and since they got to use the real ship for that episode, there was some gorgeous photography. Meanwhile back in Storybrooke, Regina actually made sense and seemed to be learning, David got to step up and do something, and I loved the relationship between David and Henry.

 

On the other hand, I found 3A kind of boring upon rewatch. There are moments, but there are few episodes I really all-out loved. It got rather monotonous, and they totally squandered the story potential in Neverland and in the backstories of the characters associated with Neverland. It seriously damaged the family relationship among the Charmings, and I think that was entirely unintentional.

 

As for the worst, I ended up going with 2B, by a hair, mostly because the problems later in the show can be traced back to that point. That's where the poor, sad Woegina stuff started, where she was such a victim because the people she'd been terrorizing didn't instantly want to become best friends with her, and that's where the flip-flopping started, where she'd had her epiphany about turning into her mother in 2A, but suddenly completely trusts and goes along with her mother, in spite of learning the full extent of her mother's schemes. Then there's the Greg/Owen stuff, in which someone who really was a victim was turned into a villain. And the complete ruin of Belle, who never seems to have had a moment of qualm about learning that Rumple murdered his wife for leaving him. And the whole Neal/Tamara mess. And the ridiculous "Home Office" plot that made no sense.

 

I actually enjoyed 3B as I watched it because I was curious about the missing year. It just fails completely upon rewatching because the whole arc was pretty pointless. The missing year was so irrelevant that they skipped over eight months in a single episode. All the sacrifices made -- David giving up his heart for the curse to be cast so they could get to Emma, Hook giving up everything he owned to reach Emma and get her back to her family -- ended up having absolutely nothing to do with the outcome. The deification of Regina went off the charts. And yet, it's not quite as rage-inducing as 2B, and it did give us that fun finale, which is becoming my go-to happy place viewing (as long as I stop it before the very end). If I skip "Kansas" and pretend everything worked out a different way, I can tolerate most of that arc without wanting to hurt anything. I nearly quit the show over 2B. At least there's no "dark spot on the heart" for something that should have been a triumphant moment that saved everyone in 3B.

[FurryFury]

Worst arc: it's pretty hard for me to decide between 2B and 3B, but I had to choose the former simply because of how close I became to quitting after Emma's love confession to Neal (ugh) or the whole Belle's amnesia (ugh). Regina's sudden white magic and TLK came close, but I still didn't think of quitting even during them. As horrible as her Mary Sue self is, at least she's not as close to Emma as Neal was, thus less potential for ruining the character I care about the most.

 

I also did choose 3A over 2A as the best arc probably more because it revitalized my faith in the show after the awful 2B. Both were big on adventure stuff - which I enjoy the most on the show (Adam and Eddy don't write drama nearly as well). I also liked both Cora and Peter Pan as villains (before the Papa Pan reveal, naturally). So, objectively, I probably liked both arcs the same, but still - 3A was a better story for Emma, and managed to correct at least a few mistakes of the previous arc, so points for that.

Edited October 2, 2014 by FurryFury

[Mathius]

The first half of "Going Home" embodies all the pitfalls the show tends to run into in Storybrooke--namely having people run around like idiotic chickens with no emotions whatsoever and bs magical fixes pulled out of a hat. Whereas "New Neverland" slows down and actually lets the characters *feel* and *process.* In a show that far too often treats its characters like automatons, it's so nice to get an episode that actually lets them have thoughts and feelings and conversations about their thoughts and feelings.

But "The New Neverland" did the same thing as "Going Home" but in reverse. The first 20 minutes were slow and had characters feeling and processing stuff, but from the moment Blue gets killed it's a bunch of running around to avert a crisis. I liked how it was done in both cases (though I agree that the Black Fairy's wand business was BS), "The New Neverland" just loses points with me because, unlike you, I just can't see the redeeming value in the fairyback. It's story was a foregone conclusion, it advanced nothing, Snowing had become boring to me by then, it wasn't fun when I was so distracted by Medusa's horrible CGI, and this same kind of fairyback was done better in "Lost Girl". In fact, THAT fairyback could have been put in this one, so that "Lost Girl" could have a flashback about Emma, the titular lost girl!

Basically, I would share your love for the episode if not for that damn fairyback.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Mathius

[Rumsy4]

I was rewatching The Crocodile, for reasons, and it seemed like Milah was not so shrewish as she often perceived, or even I remember myself. That scene at the tavern is often used to explain how verbally abuse she was, but it didn't seem like that to me this time. Yes--she "shames" him in public, but then, he lectures her about her "duty" in public too, in a completely hypocritical way, which she calls him out on. He last minute plea to Rumple to start over is again met with another lecture. She made some highly problematic choices when it came to her son, but her marriage to Rumple was causing them both pain and unhappiness. Doesn't divorce exist in the EF? Why are the only options either to run away or to murder your spouse? :-p