A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Guest]

This is funny, because I see many people complaining that this show is ignoring its own core cast in favor of playing with new "toys" like Zelena/Oz and the cast of Frozen. But evidently, if the core cast receives focus at the expense of new "toys" (the cast of Peter Pan), that's also bad.

 

Well, since I resemble both those remarks and wrote what you are responding to, let me explain.

 

The new toys should only ever serve to focus on the core characters.  It should be the backdrop or analogy that shines a light on aspects of the story that drive core character development.  Oz (and I presume Frozen because I'm pessimistic this way) failed to do that on a cast wide basis.  Oz was framed in a way where the depth of the potential storyline could only be told through Rumple and Regina (mentor and sister).  Although I admit Charming losing his courage and exploring his fear over a new child when he failed to protect/raise Emma was lovely and an example of how I wish this show would be most of the time.

 

Pan actually did a better job with character focus but it suffers in the failure to live up to potential.  Its insane that the Little Mermaid was dumped into Neverland.  Insane and makes no sense when you could have explored more of Captain Hook's story, the Lost Boys as a metaphor for Emma, etc.

 

So in short.  I complain when the writers focus the new toys.  I complain when writers focus on core but do a crap job of it.  I complain.

[Shanna Marie]

I've yet to see any evidence that Emma suffered any lasting, serious emotional damage from Snow's confession, so I don't understand why we act as if she did. I'm not saying that's realistic--it's not--but it's just not really there in the text, imo.

I think her reaction makes sense given where she was in the 3B finale. If she wasn't letting herself think of them as really being her parents or being part of her life back in 3A, why would she be all that upset about them staying together when one of them couldn't leave? Why should her parents have to be forever separated from each other so that one can stay with their adult kid? I've never had a problem with that decision. I just think maybe it needed a little more development so it at least looked like something they were wrestling with and then let Emma be the one to tell them they should stay together so it's less of a whiplash from Snow's earlier declaration that she wasn't going to let Emma feel like an orphan anymore.

 

When you establish that Nealfire and Hook spent 300 years hanging out in Neverland together, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect one Neverback dealing with that relationship, especially as their relationship became important in the present day

The potentially interesting thing there that they didn't bother to develop is that they've got a non-romantic triangle, with the two men who hate each other and wanted to kill each other and the boy they both love. What was the relationship between Hook and Bae? Were they more like friends and colleagues, were they like brothers with Killian getting to play big brother and look after Bae the way Liam looked after him, or was it a paternal relationship? Did Hook teach Bae any of his survival skills? And how would Rumple react to knowing about this relationship? Would knowing they were friends and that Hook looked after Bae change the way Rumple sees Hook, so that he's able to tolerate his continued existence on Bae's behalf and glad that Hook helped him survive and is around to tell Henry about his father, or would Rumple be angry at the idea that every loved one he lets slip through his fingers somehow ends up with Hook? If it's the latter, what happens if Rumple sees Hook and Belle talking? I wouldn't say that those two are friends, but they did work together and they went through Neal's death together, so there's a chance they might speak if they ran into each other, and would that set off all Rumple's paranoia and insecurity?

 

Really, Nealfire is the pivotal character in the whole series because without him, there's probably no Dark One and no curse. Even if he was going to die, we needed more development of him and to see just how he felt about everything that had been done in his name. We needed to see his reaction to just how far back his family history of failure went. He and his father had some serious stuff to work out, including the lengths Rumple went to and that minor detail of murdering his mother.

[stealinghome]

When I watched 2B, I just plowed through each episode without really thinking about them. Rewatching them now, I start to see the problems I didn't see before because I just wasn't paying that much attention. The twists weren't all that great, and the stakes didn't hold much weight, so I didn't feel compelled to keep watching. Mid-3A felt the same way.

I agree, though I will say that one thing that helped 3A as opposed to 2B was airing in a straight shot all through the fall (well, and also the lowered expectations as a result of 2B!). Those of us who watched 2B live found it about 10% more excruciating, I think, because the schedule had huge gaps in it, so you'd have weeks to hope that the writing was turning around and then your hopes would be (oh so cruelly) dashed. Which was not helped by the fact that we seemed to go into and come out of the big gaps on pretty weak episodes--seriously, the two big gaps on the 2B schedule were bookended by In the Name of the Brother/Tiny & Selfless Brave and True/Lacey, which, wow, what a pretty weak foursome of episodes, and what a momentum-killer.

 

I do also think, for all its other flaws, S3 did a much better job of turning this back into an ensemble show. Regina is clearly still the writers' pet, but the Charmings were like guest stars in "Once Upon a Regina" in 2B, and while one might argue about the quality of writing they received in S3 (I do), at least they got written for at all. Charming and Emma especially were glorified scenery in 2B, particularly once we got past 'Miller's Daughter.'

[KAOS Agent]

 

There seems to be an Emma-bias when it comes to this issue. Yes, Snow hurt her emotionally and didn't seem sensitive about it after the fact, but Emma has been doing that to Snow for a long time now. Snow went back on what she said in "Lost Girl"? Emma went back on what she said in "Lady of the Lake", still blaming her parents for abandoning her and refusing to connect with them as a daughter because of that pain she stews in. This is a two-way street here.

 

I'm going to address this because I think you see the problem with the lack of Snow/Emma conversation as me needing Snow to apologize to Emma and take on the fault of all relationship issues between them. And that is not where I am coming from or even remotely what I want (although I think the writing has placed all the blame on Emma and I strongly object to that, so that's where I tend to point out that Snow has done stuff too). They need to hash it out and discuss it from both sides and we never got that.

 

The problem is that the story of Neverland is that it is oppressive, it drains away hope and makes those who feel alone and abandoned into Lost Boys. We saw this with Rumpel, we saw this with Bae, we saw this with Henry. We were also given this story with Emma. She alone heard the cries of the children, she had Pan telling her she'd be an orphan in the end (which incidentally became true once the reverse curse took effect), she was the one fretting about Henry losing hope because Neverland was bringing all of that back to her. They set this story up about Emma the orphan. All her abandonment issues were being brought to the fore. It was Emma's story in Neverland. So when people are telling their most deeply held secrets, secrets that are meant to be hurtful and divide the unity of the group, and one of those secrets goes right to the heart of Emma's abandonment issues - the same issues they've been building into the story all along and also recreate Emma's past of being replaced by a new child - then yes, it absolutely requires a conversation about it. Every other secret that was told in that cave had the characters involved discuss it. Except for the one that would be felt the deepest because of Neverland's very nature. It's very disappointing. It's a failure of the writing to not follow through on this story. And even worse, it further damages the Snow/Emma relationship because it comes off like Emma doesn't care one way or the other and Snow is just unfeeling about dealing a blow to what everyone knows is Emma's biggest hot button issue.

 

I complain because I want it to be better. This show is not rainbow kisses and unicorn stickers. It has major flaws and we like to dissect them. It makes it interesting. When I started actively hating the show at the end of Season 2, I quit watching it. Season 3A was decent enough for me to come back and get invested in the characters again and that's where my frustration comes out because the characters are why I watch the show. I couldn't care less about the silly coconut shadow catcher or the magic compass, I care about things like the Charming family learning to be a family. So when really interesting character interaction is being built up and then it's never addressed, I get angry and express my frustration.

Edited July 23, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Jean]

Really, Nealfire is the pivotal character in the whole series because without him, there's probably no Dark One and no curse. Even if he was going to die, we needed more development of him and to see just how he felt about everything that had been done in his name. .

Well I don't think they ever saw Neal as a character. They saw him as Rumple's Holy Grail. Except they gave Rumple his Holy Grail too easy and too soon and now no longer know what to do with Rumple. That's the real problem. It's not so much they didn't know what to do with Neal, more they don't know how to write for Rumple anymore. Neal had to go because he and Belle occupy the same role for Rumple and they weren't getting rid of Belle. Notice they never had those 2 interacting with Rumple at the same time in any meaninful way. After Manhattan, Rumple didn't get to interact with Neal. He was tied up with LacyBelle. Then in Neverland they ditched Belle so that they can do Rumple and Neal. And when Neal wasn't around ShadowBelle popped up.

And now that Rumple doesn't have a quest any longer, there's no story for him according to the writers. He's been relegated to supporting duty which is a shame cause he's Robert freaking Carlyle. He's always isolated from everyone else. It's like they don't know how to write for him in relation to everyone else anymore. It wasn't until the finale that he got to interact with some of the cast again and that was his best episode besides the Neal dying one.

They've also never been willing to write Rumple as one-half of a couple either but that's all that's left by their own dumb writing.

[Mari]

They've also never been willing to write Rumple as one-half of a couple either but that's all that's left by their own dumb writing.

I don't expect them to actually do this, but if they were interested in it, they could have Rumple pursue a relationship with Henry.  It would even be logical and possibly in-character, since Henry is what Rumple has left of Neal.

 

This would allow for interaction with not only Henry, but his mothers and grandparents--who aren't necessarily going  to trust Rumple, or think of him as a good influence.  (And, yes, I know that Regina complaining about anyone else being a bad influence is a bit . . . rich . . . but Regina's not so good at self-perception.)

[KingOfHearts]

Belle needs to die a tragic death. Why? So Rumple can go off his rocker completely. Full imp Rumple wanting to kill everybody would be freaking awesome. It would be the battle between good and evil against the greatest villain of the magic worlds - The Dark One.

 

Mr. and Mrs. Gold just spells boring. If Rumple is going to constantly tick off Belle then just reconcile later, Rumple's character got assassinated in 3B with the death of Neal and marriage to Belle.

Edited July 24, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

"Lost Girl" was the time for them to have had a proper baby!Emma flashback. But when the writers don't really care about their supposed main character, what can you do? 

 

And even worse, it further damages the Snow/Emma relationship because it comes off like Emma doesn't care one way or the other and Snow is just unfeeling about dealing a blow to what everyone knows is Emma's biggest hot button issue.

 

I would say that of the two, Emma seemed to care more than Snow, because she was actively trying to find a way to keep them all together. Snow just made a hypocritical statement about it killing her to leave Emma but that she had no choice. Neither she nor David were given a line of dialogue relating to Emma when they discussed this issue. It was made into something solely about themselves. It was incredibly frustrating, coming on the heels of Snow's promise to Emma that she would make sure she didn't feel like an orphan. Had Emma pushed them away emotionally? Sure. But Snow and David needed to push back by showing how sacrificially they loved her. They could have involved Emma in the conversation, and started treating her like family. And, Snow should have discussed the impact of her secret with Emma, at least once they got back to Storybrooke. Instead, the writers wanted to show Snow pushing Emma towards Neal, just to imply that she still didn't "get" her daughter. The writers don't want to write about complex emotions, and multiple character motivations. They only hit one emotional beat at a time, and even that only in passing. 

Edited July 24, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

I've been thinking about this half-season arc structure, and there seem to be some pros and cons.

 

On the plus side, the arc with a single villain gives some coherence and structure to the story, which was lacking in 2B, when Hook was our villain, no, wait, it's Cora. Or maybe Regina. No, it's these other random people. And hey, Peter Pan was behind it all! It also plays into the "bottle" nature of the Storybrooke setting. Storybrooke is isolated from other worlds and theoretically difficult to get to and from, but it's hidden away in our world and there supposedly isn't anyone with magical power outside of town. That limits what they can use as threats. It would be hard to come up with too many "villain of the week" cases because where are these villains hiding all this time or is there a villain highway leading them to town, so it works better to have a single villain for an arc.

 

On the negative side, it means that if viewers don't like that half season's villain, they're pretty safe in tuning out until maybe the mid-season or season finale, since the finale is just going to hit a kind of reset button and lay the groundwork for the next season. It also makes it dangerously easy to fall into the pattern where the new character is obviously the new big bad who you know is going to be defeated, never to return again, before the finale. There's a lot of wheel spinning through the season until they finally get their act together and Regina saves the day.

 

The structure of 2A and 3A, with the story divided between part of the cast in another place, facing up against a villain, and part of the cast in Storybrooke, dealing with more mundane issues, kind of worked, though I think 3A was less effective with almost all the main cast away and only the more minor cast members back home. I liked the Team Princess arc, with the girls off having adventures and David back home trying to keep the town together as it transitioned after the curse. That was when they actually worked with the Storybrooke setting and dealt with the conflict among the characters instead of against a big bad. Maybe they could also wait an episode or two to introduce the villain and phase that story in, letting them have time to do a few episodes that are less arc-heavy. Once the villain has come to Storybrooke and the characters are aware of it, it becomes difficult to do one-off stories that are more character-driven because it makes the gang look like they're ignoring the looming threat.

[Mathius]

I guess Neal did get developed a little, though frankly, I've already forgotten about him. Though he had already kind of forgiven Rumpel in 'Miller's Daughter.' I don't know, the whole Neal/Rumpel relationship was so poorly written.

He didn't fully forgive him, he even said "I'm still angry". He was just willing to give him a chance now...which Rumple promptly blew by hanging out with Lacey and beating down Dr. Whale. Yeeeeah, their relationship did kind of suck in how it was written.

Like, yes, earlier episodes should seem richer in light of later episodes, but the earlier episodes' stories need to be able to stand on their own. And I just find that generally speaking, the Charmings' stories in Neverland don't really.

Perhaps, but the Neverland story as a whole (not just the Charmings' part in it) and its episodes. 3B not following up on them well hurts them when looked at in the grand scheme of the entire series, but looked at as just something of a miniseries in of itself, it's pretty good. Only Season 1 is better than 3A, IMO, so that's why I actually must defend Kitsis saying he thinks the arc was some of their best stuff.

it would have been more useful than the fairybacks in "Think Nasty Thoughts" or "Save Henry," both of which were just dumb

It's "Nasty Habits" (you're confusing the title with "Think Lovely Thoughts"), and I disagree. As I said before, it has a great performance face-off between Carlyle and Kay, and necessary foreshadowing for Pan's true identity. Plus, the Pan = Pied Piper angle was too perfect an idea to pass up, and despite how jarringly older he sounded, I was glad to see Dylan Schmidt again.

I'd get rid of the dumbass Medusa fairyback in "The New Neverland" instead. It's bad enough that it came after the stupid "Save Henry" fairyback, but it was one of THE most useless fairybacks in the series with little to no connection whatsoever to what was currently going on. And Medusa herself was one of the worst CGI creations the show has ever put on screen. The flying monkeys coming only a few episodes later just reinforced how lame she was by comparison.

I'm pretty sure the ratings speaks for itself when it comes to S1 vs S2 and S3 and the drop off between the seasons which speaks to audience retention. Their biggest mistake is probably getting rid of the semi-procedural format and crawling so far up St. Woegina's ass that they can't see anything else. I'm pretty sure it was the height of delusion when Adam, Eddy and Lana practically screamed from the rooftops that Pan was so much more evil than Rumpel or Woegina cause he didn't regret anything and lo and behold we got "No Regrets."

Agreed about the ratings (to be specific, the big audience drop off came in Season 2B, not between seasons. No further drop off has happened since then, thankfully, just less of the audience watching it live.) But I do feel I must point out that Pan and Regina's cases are different: Pan literally regrets nothing. That's why he was safe by that tree. Regina DOES have regrets, which is why the tree bound her at first, but she can banish them from her mind easily, because both her regrets AND her lack of regrets are tied to her own selfishness.

She regrets her evil actions when they cause her to suffer (when she isn't passing the blame to someone else, anyway), but she doesn't regret them when they benefit her. What she did at the tree was stop thinking about everything she lost because of her evil actions and only fixate on what she got out of them: Henry. The line isn't even "No Regrets", but something that matches the situation more: "I should be overflowing with regret, but...I'm not. Because it got me my son!"

That was supposedly Rumpel's arc

Neverland was everyone's arc. Rumple had a significant part in it, but he wasn't the focus, and his development arc happened every other episode (2, 4, 6, 8, 10/11) rather than all of them.

Same with me. I've talked to several casual viewers, and most of them stopped watching or lost most of their interest in S2. Not sure if it was the bad writing or just the non-exciting story arcs. S1 was full of suspense because of the curse, ongoing setup, etc, but S2 just lost the edge-of-your-seat excitement for some reason.

Again, if we're being more specific, it's 2B that lost it. 2A actually pulled S1 numbers in the ratings, since it had generally better writing and an ongoing setup...which got resolved at the end in "Queen of Hearts", and that's when it all went downhill. If you look at the ratings and how they fell, you would see that "The Cricket Game", "The Outsider" and "In the Name of the Brother" were a three-strikes you're-out deal; a huge percentage of the audience dropped out due to those three episodes alone. Because there just was no ongoing setup anymore, it was random plot stuff happening very quickly with little time to breathe and characters suffering from it. No wonder so many people didn't come back for "Tiny"!

Pan actually did a better job with character focus but it suffers in the failure to live up to potential. Its insane that the Little Mermaid was dumped into Neverland. Insane and makes no sense when you could have explored more of Captain Hook's story, the Lost Boys as a metaphor for Emma, etc.

Hook I'll give you (I liked seeing his backstory as Lt. Jones, but I wanted to hear more about what he did in Pan's services in Neverland and how he reconnected with Baelfire), but the Little Mermaid made perfect sense since they had just finally introduced mermaids to the show at the start of the arc, and the Lost Boys as a metaphor for Emma was already explored in "Lost Girl" and brought to a natural conclusion in "Save Henry" (the lost child all grown up leads the other lost children home). Exploring that any more would be hammering in a point the audience should already get by now.

There's a lot of wheel spinning through the season until they finally get their act together and Regina saves the day.

I worry about this too. It worked with Pan because there was a justified reason for the wheel spinning: he was stalling them with all their past issues and insecurities, and they had to work through them before they could actually save Henry. It was a clever way of dealing with the fact that S2 completely dropped the ball when it came to dealing with the characters' issues.

But Zelena? Just what the Hell was their excuse? In both the forgotten past year AND the present, the heroes' wheel spinning was just because the heroes were being made into idiots who kept missing obvious things and potential solutions. It was particularly aggravating since Zelena just did not come off as the uber-powerful, uber-manipulative type that Rumple, Regina, Cora and Pan were, so it made very little sense why everyone was having this much trouble defeating her.

Whoever 4A's villain is, I hope they don't repeat the same mistakes as with Zelena.

[KAOS Agent]

 

It was particularly aggravating since Zelena just did not come off as the uber-powerful, uber-manipulative type that Rumple, Regina, Cora and Pan were, so it made very little sense why everyone was having this much trouble defeating her.

 

 Don't you know? She was all powerful...until she wasn't. Worst plot resolution ever. The ridiculousness of the Zelena plot knew no bounds. I have to say though, I loved Zelena's ability to continually knock Regina on her ass.

[stealinghome]

That was most definitely the best thing about Zelena. By far.

 

I thought 3x16 was a useless episode generally speaking, but Zelena sending Regina crashing through the clocktower? One of the highlights of the season for me!

[Camera One]

It was particularly aggravating since Zelena just did not come off as the uber-powerful, uber-manipulative type that Rumple, Regina, Cora and Pan were

 

She was magically stronger than Regina, she controlled Rumple's dagger, she saw and heard all, Glinda never had the power to defeat her... that's pretty uber-powerful, until, as KAOS agent pointed out, it became so easy all at once.  

[Jean]

Agreed about the ratings (to be specific, the big audience drop off came in Season 2B, not between seasons. No further drop off has happened since then, thankfully, just less of the audience watching it live.) But I do feel I must point out that Pan and Regina's cases are different: Pan literally regrets nothing. That's why he was safe by that tree. Regina DOES have regrets, which is why the tree bound her at first, but she can banish them from her mind easily, because both her regrets AND her lack of regrets are tied to her own selfishness.

She regrets her evil actions when they cause her to suffer (when she isn't passing the blame to someone else, anyway), but she doesn't regret them when they benefit her. What she did at the tree was stop thinking about everything she lost because of her evil actions and only fixate on what she got out of them: Henry. The line isn't even "No Regrets", but something that matches the situation more: "I should be overflowing with regret, but...I'm not. Because it got me my son

Yeah no beans. If anything I consider Pan the lesser evil. At least he didn't fake the funk.

That explanation of her no regrets vs Pan? This would be like a gold digger who claims to really love the rich old dude but left him when he was broke. But she did really love him cause he had money for her to spend. When he doesn't have money to benefit her she doesn't love him. Now is anybody going to claim that that "love" is truer or more real or different from someone marrying a guy and straight up saying, "I don't love the old geezer."

Regrets isn't based on benefits to oneself in the context of comparing Woegina to Pan. It's disingenuous. This is like Adam and Eddy claiming Regina never raped Graham cause we never saw them having sex. Oh ok writers. I guess none of the characters ever have bowel movements or shower either. Wait maybe this explains why everyone in town always look constipated.

And we never saw Emma and Neal have sex. I say the Tooth Fairy is still s candidate for Henry's dad.

[Dani-Ellie]

This is like Adam and Eddy claiming Regina never raped Graham cause we never saw them having sex. Oh ok writers.

 

Seriously?! Because I seem to remember Regina zipping up her dress in the mirror and talking to Graham in the shower in their secret tryst room at Granny's in "The Price of Gold." What the hell else were they doing, then, writers?

[ShadowFacts]

Didn't we also see Graham and Regina in her bed in her bedroom, and then Graham sneaking out the window when Emma saw him?  Or was that Granny's, too?  Even in the Enchanted Forest, she had commanded her guards to take him to her bedchamber.  Bleccchh that was gross just typing it. And then the writers deny it.  I can see why some viewers get really steamed. 

[Rumsy4]

I remember Adam and Eddy saying in a podcast that Evil Queen and Graham may have been playing chess in her bed chamber after she had forced her guards to take him there. Pretty callous dowplaying of rape because they don't want accountability.. And according to them, Graham wasn't raped in Storybrooke at all.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Rumsy4

[myril]

It's "Nasty Habits" (you're confusing the title with "Think Lovely Thoughts"), and I disagree. As I said before, it has a great performance face-off between Carlyle and Kay, and necessary foreshadowing for Pan's true identity. Plus, the Pan = Pied Piper angle was too perfect an idea to pass up, and despite how jarringly older he sounded, I was glad to see Dylan Schmidt again.

 

I disliked the Pan = Pied Piper angle in Nasty Habits at first absolutely, but mostly because I think they didn't get much of the saga. I missed the part of the selfish town leaders betraying the Pied Piper, although I know there are (wild) speculations that the saga might depict an event of some religious sect disappearing with children, young people of the town. And while on the show the townspeople were speaking of "children" hearing the pipe and disappearing, Pan then told Rumple it were just boys feeling lost and alone able to, and they showed only boys following the pipe. Get why they did it, suspense! Didn't want to give away 10 minutes too early, who the Piper could be, but not the best dialogue writing (aside the extras were acting terrible, or the director had no idea how to make them look better).

 

One of the problems this show has: they love their alleged surprising twists too much. Shiny toy to play with, but that is it often.

 

On the other hand, growing up with Pied Piper is probably one of the reasons why I always found Peter Pan a bit creepy, both luring kids away from home (Pan the Darlings, the Lost Boys were said to haven been orphans, still found it creepy why he wanted to help them to avoid growing up, but I was a kid thinking that being a kid is not per se the best time of life). Still I found their take on the saga rather mediocre, though a telling moment for Rumple and Bae/Neal and their relationship, showing thankfully that their was a lot more wrong in it than just Rumple not following Bae through the bean portal. Interesting that Pan and Rumple both had a thing with taking children away from parents.

 

 

I'd get rid of the dumbass Medusa fairyback in "The New Neverland" instead. It's bad enough that it came after the stupid "Save Henry" fairyback, but it was one of THE most useless fairybacks in the series with little to no connection whatsoever to what was currently going on. And Medusa herself was one of the worst CGI creations the show has ever put on screen. The flying monkeys coming only a few episodes later just reinforced how lame she was by comparison.

 

Medusa is though an even worse example for the shiny toy syndrome of Once. And this time an awful disservice not just to the mythology but to one of the characters. It made no sense to me at all that Snow would go and cut off the head of a creature to use it to stop Regina. Unless of course you think that Snow is either a practical person (then she should have not stopped Regina's execution maybe) or as bit of a bad streak herself. They really want to force that down our throats. do they, Snow as someone doing bad and even evil things as well, Regina is not alone. And what they both share as well: they're more worried about their own happiness and their loved ones than about others. The only problem I have with that is, that though Snow was a bit vain already in season 1, and thankfully not a flawless person, this leveling down of the good characters is not well done.

 

I don't mind grey and even dark, but the show is more a cheesy mishmash of nonsense. I just don't see the development coming from inside the characters, it's something more befalling them like a virus.

Edited July 24, 2014 by katusch

[Shanna Marie]

Medusa is though an even worse example for the shiny toy syndrome of Once. And this time an awful disservice not just to the mythology but to one of the characters. It made no sense to me at all that Snow would go and cut off the head of a creature to use it to stop Regina. Unless of course you think that Snow is either a practical person (then she should have not stopped Regina's execution maybe) or as bit of a bad streak herself. They really want to force that down our throats. do they, Snow as someone doing bad and even evil things as well, Regina is not alone. And what they both share as well: they're more worried about their own happiness and their loved ones than about others.

Except this is completely out of character for Snow. As you mentioned, she had Regina prisoner, they seemed to have had some sort of trial in which Regina was rightfully convicted of numerous crimes, and then Snow stopped the execution and let her go. So it makes no sense that Snow would later want to kill Medusa to kill Regina. I think one of the big problems with 3A isn't in the present-day story, but in what they did with the fairybacks, where there was no coherence or rhyme or reason. They just made up something out of thin air that was somewhat thematically related to what was going on in the present rather than trying to tell a story, and what they made up was not only filler, it was often contradictory to what we know about the characters or the story. It didn't move any part of the story forward, didn't reveal anything interesting. Or like the Hook and Tink flashback, was a big pile of "duh."

 

The backstory should have been about the Neverland past of our characters -- how Rumple's father became Pan, how Hook first came to Neverland, how Pan tried to get his mitts on Bae (I actually liked the Pied Piper twist, not that it was well executed), how Bae survived there and later escaped, and then the relationship of all three of them to Pan and how they were affected by their time in Neverland. When you think about it, they were all coming back to a place they'd been lucky to escape and where they'd all experienced some pivotal moments. There's a story there that could have worked like the season one fairybacks that told about the buildup to the curse.

[tennisgurl]

Ok so, I know I have heard about this a whole lot, but what exactly did Adam and Eddie say about Graham not being raped by Regina? I have tried to find the interview when they discussed it, and its hard to sift through all the interviews/podcasts, and quite honestly, I just cant stand to listen to some of the dumb stuff they say for too long. I know that they think they left it ambiguous in the enchanted forest (but...come ON guys!) but how did they explain away the fact that she had sex with him in Storybrooke while he was under the curse? I just don't get how they can explain that away!  

[stealinghome]

I thought their stance has always been that the sex in Storybrooke was consensual. (Which it clearly wasn't--it's not even understanding that the curse was a big roofie, but did you SEE

1x07, where Graham says that he doesn't know why he's sleeping with Regina but he still does???) I don't know where that was said though--I want to say twitter.

[Camera One]

Medusa is though an even worse example for the shiny toy syndrome of Once. And this time an awful disservice not just to the mythology but to one of the characters.

 

I'm pretty sure the writers just believe Medusa to be a typical evil monster.  So to them, it would be nothing more than killing a dragon, or an ogre.  The focus really wasn't on Medusa, but on Snow worrying about what Regina would do to her baby if she became pregnant.  So yeah, it's awful disservice to the mythology for a one-off plot, but unfortunately, that's the rule, not the exception.  I don't think it's supposed to reflect on Snow, but of course if you feel strongly about Medusa, then it would as an unintended effect.

 

I disliked the Pan = Pied Piper angle in Nasty Habits at first absolutely, but mostly because I think they didn't get much of the saga.

 

Unfortunately, the more one knows about these stories and the depth of them, the less satisfied one would be.  I think this was a case of "Wouldn't it be neat if..."  Pied Piper stole children and so did Peter Pan, maybe they're the same person!  Plus this would give a "clue" about Rumple and Peter Pan's past so we can drag it out for a few more episodes!   Aside from the "cleverness", the flashbacks were useless since we saw nothing new we could have learned from the Young Bae/Rumple relationship.  Added to the fact that the young actor has aged, it almost made it difficult to mesh with previous flashbacks.  It just made so much more sense to have flashbacks dealing with Bae's time in Neverland (continuing on from after he left Hook's ship) and how that transitioned into adult Neal, but the writers wanted to focus on Rumple, and his past on Peter Pan so we got what we got.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Camera One

[Serena]

Ok so, I know I have heard about this a whole lot, but what exactly did Adam and Eddie say about Graham not being raped by Regina? I have tried to find the interview when they discussed it, and its hard to sift through all the interviews/podcasts, and quite honestly, I just cant stand to listen to some of the dumb stuff they say for too long. I know that they think they left it ambiguous in the enchanted forest (but...come ON guys!) but how did they explain away the fact that she had sex with him in Storybrooke while he was under the curse? I just don't get how they can explain that away!  

First I want to say, I don't think they ever said anything about it in any podcast or official interview. This is because the media sucks and has never actually called them out on it. So it's actually been things Adam has said on his Twitter. I would say this Twitter conversation says it all: first, when asked when they're gonna address Regina raping Graham, Adam says "she also killed him" which seems to imply that he's admitting it was rape. However, some months later he also said that we don't know what went on in her "bedchamber" in the Enchanted Forest. And then he keeps insisting that in Storybrooke there's free will. 

Interestingly enough, Jane Espenson said in an interview once (it was about Henry/Regina and how her abuse of Graham relates to it) “Look at the relationship that Regina had with Graham where she’s like: ‘Okay, you’re gonna be my sex slave and have no say in it’. That’s… no. And they’re having sex in the house.”. Jamie Dornan also called Graham "controlled from the very start".

And may I add, if Regina had been an ugly old magician who cursed Snow White the same way Graham was cursed... NO ONE would be saying it's not rape. Just imagine the SAME EXACT Regina/Graham storyline, but someone like King George is in the Regina part and someone like Snow (or Emma, or Belle, etc) in the Graham part. That shit would NOT fly. 

[Jean]

I'm pretty sure it was on Twitter too and it was a long back and forth thing. Maybe some diehard Graham fan page or something will have it. It was right around the time of Welcome to Storybrook when they touted Graham's return and Adam/Eddy and Lana gave interviews like Graham and Woegina was in some sort of cutesy rom-com. Adam basically insisted that because insertion was never shown, we don't know that they had sex and therefore couldn't be rape. This Graham fan, I'm guessing, laid out all the "circumstantial" evidence like Dani-Ellie and ShadowFacts did and Adam kept repeating nope, didn't see sex, they could've been doing anything like playing Candyland!

 

It's that type of delusional fangurl mentality that's basically turned this show into a Woegina fanfiction and has warped every aspect of it. I bet the actual show isn't all that different from the Woegina fanfiction that exists online. He didn't even have to address it. He picked out a tweet insulting Woegina, out of the hundreds on other topics that he gets? and it was like a battle cry. "I need to defend our St. Woegina to the death!

 

It's why I only like reading Robert's interviews now.  He's a straight shooter and I've never heard him make excuses for Rumple. When he was asked on what Rumple was going to do with the whole Henry undoing thing, he said something like, Rumple is the type that when faced with doing the right thing or the wrong thing, he will most likely do the wrong thing. Imagine if the swing scene was with Woegina. Adam and co. would be claiming we didn't physically see her cut the rope! Her hand was just twitching. It's Henry's own fault. Maybe if he wasn't so fat, the rope wouldn't have broken away. And it's Snow's fault for making him fat cause she kept shoveling cookies into his mouth.

[Mari]

It's Henry's own fault. Maybe if he wasn't so fat, the rope wouldn't have broken away. And it's Snow's fault for making him fat cause she kept shoveling cookies into his mouth.

Well, the White family doesn't think about consequences.  They probably didn't realize how fattening cookies are.

[KingOfHearts]

I did some digging on name meanings. Found some interesting findings!

 

- Regina means "queen". Reasoning is self-explanatory.

- Cora means "heart". Self-explanatory.

- Zelena means "green". Self-explanatory.

- Nolan, David and Kathryn's surname, means "noble"

- Mary Margaret Blanchard. Mary probably alludes to the Virgin Mary, representing holiness and purity. Margaret means "pearl", which also stands for purity. Blanchard means "whitish" or almost white - Snow White reference.

- Killian Jones. Killian means "Church of John", while Jones means "Son of John". So, his name is double the John! Killian also means strife.

- August W. Booth is probably an allusion to John W. Booth, the man who assassinated Abraham Lincoln. Wayne, August's middle name, means "craftsman".

- Cassidy means "curly-headed" or "clever".

- Emma and Henry might allude to a 1709 poem by Matthew Prior called "Emma and Henry". This poem was also referenced in Jane Austen's novel, Persuasion. Their names could also be a homage to Aunt Em and Uncle Henry from Wizard of Oz.

- Kathryn means "pure". In this case, it's probably referring to the fact that in the love triangle, she was actually innocent. That's my theory, anyway.

- Milah derives from Mila, which means "dear" or "favored". Milah was dear to both Rumple and Hook.

- Baelfire means "bonfire", while Bae means "babe".

- Glinda means "good". Self-explanatory.

- Dr. Whale's name takes after the director of Frankenstein, James Whale.

- Walsh shares his name with Pat Walshe, the actor who portrayed the head of the flying monkeys in the Wizard of Oz movie.

- Emma's surname Swan could be a reference to the Swan Princess movies. Her appearance, especially in There's No Place Like Home, is very similar to the original princess's in the movies. 

- Maleficent means "evil" or "malicious"

- Jefferson and his daughter Grace are a reference to Jefferson Airplane, a band with female singer Grace Slick.

- Eva means "life" or "mother of life".

- Johanna means "gracious".

- Lumiere means "light".

- Graham means "gravel homestead". My reasoning is the Huntsman lived in the wilderness as his home.

- Greg Mendell is an homage to Gregor Mendel, the father of modern genetics.

- Belle and Moe's surname French alludes to the setting of Beauty and the Beast being France.

- Ashley's surname Boyd means "yellow", but commonly refers to blonde hair.

 

I skipped some of the obvious allusions, like Mr. Gold and Ruby.

Edited July 24, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[kili]

-

Emma's surname Swan could be a reference to the Swan Princess movies.

 

I assumed that Emma's last name is a reference to the Ugly Duckling fairytale. The cignette was separated from its family and ended up unloved and abused by everybdoy, It grew up to be a beautiful swan and found a family (other swans).

[Shanna Marie]

Emma's name could also link to the tale The Six Swans, in which a girl has to make all kinds of sacrifices, like not speaking for years while making shirts out of stinging nettles, to save her brothers. So, being isolated and having to sacrifice much of her life to save her family from a curse fits.

[FabulousTater]

I assumed that Emma's last name is a reference to the Ugly Duckling fairytale.

It is a reference to The Ugly Duckling. Someone asked Adam about it ages ago on Twitter and he said it was a reference to the Ugly Duckling. Jennifer Morrison also later on confirmed the reference. It's also why she dubbed Emma's fans the Ugly Ducklings.

[YaddaYadda]

-

 

I assumed that Emma's last name is a reference to the Ugly Duckling fairytale. The cignette was separated from its family and ended up unloved and abused by everybdoy, It grew up to be a beautiful swan and found a family (other swans).

 

Swan is also a reference to a constellation.

 

ETA- Fabulous Tater confirmed the whole Ugly Duckling thing.  I'll keep the constellation as my headcannon.

Edited July 24, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

Rewatched The Pilot as part of my series rewatch before S4...

 

It really almost gave me chills. There are some major contrasts between S1 and now.

 

For one, the pacing is more manageable. It seems the writers were more capable of keeping the story going and relaying a lot of information without going PLOT PLOT PLOT. There was an elegance and completeness to the story that quite frankly isn't present today. Everything felt calculated, detailed, meaningful and thought-out. It had that Lost kind of depth.

 

It was also less cartoony/fantastic than today. It was more relateable because it was closer to the real world and not off in unicorn sticker land. The characters, although mostly cursed, felt more natural and less cartoonish. The dialog and interaction was more organic, and the only cliche lines were reserved for Regina.

 

I also noticed S1 was much more suspenseful. We all love these characters so much, and to see them cursed really plays with our sympathies. We get so excited about Disney magic and fairy tales, that we want the curse broken so bad. Now in the present, it's just not very edgy any more because like most episodic adventures, we know everything is just going to get reset after the latest mishap is dealt with. S1 had more questions to be asked, and we had no way to know when or how the curse was going to be broken.

 

The best of S1 was more elegant, less cheesy, fuller, deeper, more mature, and had much more thorough writing than what we have now. It makes me really happy to rewatch it, and shows me why I fell in love with the show in the first place!

Edited July 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Guest]

Rewatched The Pilot as part of my series rewatch before S4...

 

It really almost gave me chills. There are some major contrasts between S1 and now.

 

I started doing this but decided to abandon it.  I started getting really annoyed at how bad season 3 was by comparison.  It was coming to a point where it was stop the rewatch or give up on the show.  So I'm saving future rewatch for when I'm done or the show is, whichever comes first.

 

Season 1 really was everything I wanted the show to be. Comparing the seasons would be like saying season 1 put a modern twist on stories that have survived hundreds of years and season 2 and 3 were inspired by going through the ride at Disneyland.

[MaiLuna]

 

- Cassidy means "curly-headed" or "clever".

I always thought Neal's name was just based on Neal Cassady

[Mathius]

S1, 2A and 3A are all generally pretty strong, IMHO. It's really just 2B and 3B that suck, though I'm not hopeful for S4.

[KingOfHearts]

 

S1, 2A and 3A are all generally pretty strong, IMHO. It's really just 2B and 3B that suck, though I'm not hopeful for S4.

I pretty much agree with this. 

 

S1 gets boring in the middle on rewatch. If you already know how the Kathryn murder case ends, it's really not worth watching, unless fairybacks are your cup of tea. 1x01-1x07 are good for the most part (although I really don't care for the Archie/Ashley fillers), and 1x17-1x22 are the best streak of episodes the show has ever had. They're almost like a six-part season finale.

 

S2 is passable up to 2x09 (Queen of Hearts). It doesn't pick up the pace again until 2x14 (Manhattan), but it quickly dies off in 2x16 (The Miller's Daughter). The rest of the season after that is really crappy.

 

S3 has momentum in episodes 3x01 to 3x03, but doesn't become particularly interesting until 3x07 (Dark Hollow). From then on, it's an above average series of episodes that lasts until the winter finale, 3x11. (Going Home) All of 3A is better than S2... except for Nasty Habits.

 

3B starts off strong with New York City Serenade and Witch Hunt, but quickly falls short with The Tower. It takes four whole episodes to recuperate, then shoots off from zero to sixty with A Curious Thing, 3x19. From then on, it's just average until the finale.

 

Once is really good when it's good, but downright terrible when it's bad. Its quality is very bipolar.

Edited July 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I thought of a way that 3B could have been even worse.  What if #SaveHenry was the theme for the ENTIRE third season?

 

Maybe not just Peter Pan was after Henry.  There was also the team of the Evil Scarecrow, the Evil Tin Man and the Evil Lion, who also wanted Henry, for the Brain of the Truest Believer, the Heart of the Truest Believer (Tin Man and Peter Pan are archnemesis - actually the Tin Man is Peter Pan's father) and the Courage of the Truest Believer.  

 

So they end up fighting and defeating Peter Pan but immediately kidnap Henry to Oz, so there is no happy reunion.  

Edited July 26, 2014 by Camera One

[Mathius]

S1 gets boring in the middle on rewatch. If you already know how the Kathryn murder case ends, it's really not worth watching, unless fairybacks are your cup of tea. 1x01-1x07 are good for the most part (although I really don't care for the Archie/Ashley fillers), and 1x17-1x22 are the best streak of episodes the show has ever had. They're almost like a six-part season finale.

Agreed on all counts but two: I wouldn't consider the Ashely episode "filler" at all since this is when Emma ends up owing Gold a favor, which is what ultimately reunites him with Baelfire/Neal, so that's a pretty major plot point. And I wouldn't say the middle is entirely boring: 1x08, 1x10, 1x12, 1x15 and 1x16 are all still great to watch, IMO, even when you know the outcome of the murder case (yes, the fairybacks are the main attraction in all of these, but I personally enjoy the Storybrooke stuff too.) 1x09, 1x11, 1x13 and 1x14 are all pretty lame, though.

[Jean]

I liked both the Kathryn murder stuff and the Cinderella arc, not by itself but in the context of what those 2 stories mean in the larger picture.

Kathryn's case was probably the most interesting stuff Snow and Charming got as a couple. I know they like to pretend Heart of Darkness was a cautionary tale about Snow being The Evil but for once I thought finally Snow gets to have a sensible reaction to someone who killed her dad, entire villages and has been hunting her. I bet that's Ginny's favorite episode for to her play too. It also showed why and how Snow and Charming were a true love couple and why Rumple was messing with them. And it was also the turning point for Emma and Snow's relationship and Emma wanting to take down Woegina. Before that she was pretty much c'est la vie.

Cinderella's story set up how complicated Rumple's plans were. And he used her to first get Emma's name from her parents, the final ingredient of his curse and then in modern day to get Emma to owe him which ultimately ended up being the final step in finding his kid. If anybody should get credit for helping Rumple reunite with Bae it should be Cindy. The character itself got the short end of the stick though. Her love story with her prince wasn't given very much either.

[angelwoody]

I'm re watching the finale and just remembered something that really bugged me the first time I watched.

I don't understand why Snow and Charming make Emma wait to find out Snowflake's name with the rest of the town. They blather on that it's a royal family tradition and how all that matters is that they're together and yet... Emma is treated not like part of the family but just like everyone else. It's just kind of crappy.

[Serena]

I'm re watching the finale and just remembered something that really bugged me the first time I watched.

I don't understand why Snow and Charming make Emma wait to find out Snowflake's name with the rest of the town. They blather on that it's a royal family tradition and how all that matters is that they're together and yet... Emma is treated not like part of the family but just like everyone else. It's just kind of crappy.

Maybe they were afraid that if they told her the name before it was official, she'd punch them in the face and make them change it?!

[angelwoody]

Maybe they were afraid that if they told her the name before it was official, she'd punch them in the face and make them change it?!

I would pay good money to see that scene. It still makes me angry that the baby is named after the person (second to Regina) who caused Emma the most pain in her life. Way to go parents trying to show their daughter how much they love and understand her!

[Mari]

I'm re watching the finale and just remembered something that really bugged me the first time I watched.

I don't understand why Snow and Charming make Emma wait to find out Snowflake's name with the rest of the town. They blather on that it's a royal family tradition and how all that matters is that they're together and yet... Emma is treated not like part of the family but just like everyone else. It's just kind of crappy.

It's crappy, but it's kind of in-character for how they (particularly Snow) treated Emma after the Echo Cave scene.  After the Echo Cave scene, they obviously liked Emma, but definitely seemed to keep their distance. 

 

In some ways, it's understandable.  They like Emma, but haven't exactly had huge amounts of family bonding time.  Since Emma is pretty guarded, and did not immediately jump into the relationship Snow expected them to have it can be read one of two ways:  They wrote Emma off after the Echo Cave scene, or they were respecting Emma's wishes as they saw them.

 

I've wondered if their relationship would be different if Emma had been raised by foster parents in the Enchanted Forest.  Does being raised in the forest give you different expectations when it comes to family relationships being impacted by curses/magic/random Evil Dooer #89, and so you'd be more open to brand new parents your own age?

 

 

 

I would pay good money to see that scene. It still makes me angry that the baby is named after the person (second to Regina) who caused Emma the most pain in her life. Way to go parents trying to show their daughter how much they love and understand her!

True, but do the Charmings know that?  Henry does, but Henry does only because of the spell Regina did that allowed Henry and Emma to experience Emma keeping Henry.

 

I know that Snow was given some information, but Snow doesn't have the kind of life experiences that allow her to understand how deep that betrayal went.  Her main betrayal was from a stepmother that had been rather distant even before she went on the killing spree(s).  After Snow was on the run, she consistently met people that were kind and/or loving.  I can see her misunderstanding the true Neal/Emma situation, and in her head giving it the same type of misunderstandings that she and Charming were (much more briefly) separated by.

 

If they don't know the whole story, naming Nealflake after Emma's ex could be interpreted as the Charmings clumsily trying to connect with Emma and Henry--a kind of "See, we value this person you valued, too!"

[Dani-Ellie]

It makes me so angry that we have no idea if Snow and Charming even know what Neal did to Emma. These are the things we should know if the characters even know about each other. And yeah, I buy Emma not exactly offering up the information, but I don't buy Snow or Charming not at least expressing an interest. Henry and Hook both know. (And I couldn't even tell if when Emma told Hook onscreen if that was the first time she'd told him! He didn't seem surprised by the information and he did get in that earlier dig to Neal about how he'd already left her once, but did he know the extent of it then or was that dig just from observation?) Wouldn't Henry and Hook at least want to fill them in? Not in a going-behind-Emma's-back kind of way, but just as a way of letting them know that he deeply, deeply hurt her and maybe they should try to find out why?

 

It's like, if they know, great. If they don't know, great. But it shouldn't be a question if they know or not. That should have been clear in the narrative.

 

I can see her misunderstanding the true Neal/Emma situation, and in her head giving it the same type of misunderstandings that she and Charming were (much more briefly) separated by.

 

I see that side of it, too, but at the same time, cursed Mary Margaret Blanchard had such a better insight into Emma than Snow seems to. Mary Margaret would have gently pushed to find out the whole story before she passed judgment and decided Emma was just being Emma and "owed it to herself to he happy" with the guy who made her so miserable in the first place.

 

I just don't understand what the writers were doing, and if it had led to something, some big emotional parent/adult-child standoff, I would have accepted it. As it stands, though, it just makes Snow and Charming look so out of touch with their own daughter and Emma's accepting it just because it's better than anything she's had so far.

[Crimson Belle]

With the myriad of problems surrounding this show, and very little being done right after the first season (and lots not even then), the most disappointing issue of all is the complete lack of the creators/writers to have any understanding of family dynamics.  I signed on for the "Emma finds her parents"/family bonding and drama that should have flowed very naturally and freely from the premise of the show.  There was so much there that could have fueled seasons of drama and plot, but they ignore it for St. Regina the Unredeemed. 

 

Snow and Charming don't know about Neal and what he did, primarily because Adam and Eddy show one thing and tell another about what he did.  If Snow or Charming knew, Neal would be a eunuch.

[Serena]

Looking at the bright side, it could be worse: Snowing knowing what Neal did, and still insisting that he's a "hero" like the narrative wants us to believe.

[Dani-Ellie]

If Snow or Charming knew, Neal would be a eunuch.

 

Ha! Very true.

 

But even Snow and Charming not knowing is problematic, because why don't they? Okay, I mean, I get that the reason they don't know is because Adam and Eddy have no desire to truly deal with it, but in-story, why don't they know? Have they ever asked? Have they ever stopped to think, "Gee, I wonder what the hell happened between those two?" Because like I said above, assuming it was just a bad break-up is so damn out of touch, considering we know what really happened, and the longer it goes, the deeper that wedge is driven.

 

I mean, at this point, I think we can safely assume they'll never know. So they'll never know that this guy they all think is a hero dumped their 17-year-old daughter in jail. They'll never know about this very important piece of Emma's life, an experience that, for better or worse, made her who she is today. How can they ever really know her, then? How can they ever see things from her perspective or truly appreciate the woman their baby girl has become if they're not allowed to know what made her who she is? (Which is a problem not just with Neal but with everything from Emma's past.)

Edited July 30, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Camera One]

Have they ever stopped to think, "Gee, I wonder what the hell happened between those two?" Because like I said above, assuming it was just a bad break-up is so damn out of touch, considering we know what really happened,

 

"Considering what we know" is the key.  In their perspective, it was an ugly break-up, one that Emma had made peace with, as far as the writers are concerned.  We don't see her holding onto resentment for Neal (despite what one would personally have done under the circumstances).  I don't think Charming would go right out and ask Emma to explain what happened with Neal.  Snow would be more likely to ask, but she's trying to respect that Emma will tell her when she's ready and if she wants to.  People compartmentalize, and not everyone wants to discuss their past intimate relationship problems with their parents, even if they grew up together and Emma did not grow up with them.  I do think they should have dealt with it fully, but would people be willing to sacrifice Hook time to fully deal with the whole Emma/Neal thing properly?  At this point, I think the ship has sailed, and should have been dealt with in Season 2B or 3A, at the same time that they should have shown Emma herself facing and trying to deal with it, and at the same time they showed more of Neal's backstory to reconcile Young Bae and Adult Neal.  And for this to be done properly, it would have to be in lieu of the Captain Swan/triangle stuff.  I suppose some people just have a deep need to hear Snow and Charming denouncing what Neal did?  The guy has died by this point and I don't think Emma would find that particularly cathartic to hear at this stage.  She knew she was treated poorly and it doesn't look like she needed validation in that area.

 

If Adam and Eddy really wanted to make Neal a hero, they could have done a hell of a better job than "Bleeding Through".  As it were, Neal sacrificed his life for pretty much nothing.  Emma didn't defeat Zelena.  If Rumple wasn't alive, Zelena wouldn't have a Brain (though they never did and probably never will explain why she needed Rumple's brain exactly).  Zelena used Rumple for tasks that any Flying Monkey could have accomplished.  All Rumple did was to reveal Zelena's identity and any idiot should have been able to deduce that with the big ass green broach she was wearing.  

Edited July 30, 2014 by Camera One

[Dani-Ellie]

I suppose some people just have a deep need to hear Snow and Charming denouncing what Neal did?

 

For me, part of it is that. Part of it was, if Snow is going to push her daughter towards this guy, shouldn't she want to know the whole story? How can she properly judge whether Emma's just being Emma or whether Emma has a valid reason to be conflicted if she doesn't know the history? Because to me, a mother pushing her daughter to reunite with the guy who'd dumped her 17-year-old self in jail was grody. I'm not at all saying Snow was intending to be grody; I think her heart was in the right place. But she was talking out of turn, and it was painfully obvious that she'd never once asked. She just assumed she knew best, and I can't imagine any mother giving her daughter the same advice if she had known.

 

Part of me would like to see Snow and Charming taking an interest in their daughter's life. And no, Emma's not going to freely share everything, but I would like to see them at least offering to be that ear for her if she ever needs/wants it. (I do love when Daddy Charming comes out to play so I love when they have him talking to her and presenting himself as a judgment-free zone.) I would have liked to see them ask Emma if naming the baby after Neal would be all right with her, as a way to honor Neal's sacrifice and his place as Henry's father. Yeah, Emma seemed happy with it, but at that point, it was a done deal. What if she hadn't been? It just would have been nice to see them take her into consideration.

 

A large part of it is, though, the fact that Snow and Charming not knowing about Neal is indicative of a larger problem. This family doesn't know each other. We have parents making decisions that affect their daughter without consulting her or even filling her in (and I'm sorry, but nothing will convince me that Emma was not hurt by her parents deciding to give up and stay in Neverland). We have a daughter who's been so hurt by life in general that she can't bring herself to trust anyone, we have broken promises from mother to daughter, and where does the story attention go? Snow working on her relationship with the woman who took her daughter from her in the first place.

 

At this point, the ship has sailed on a lot of the stuff I desperately wanted to see. Maybe I can hope that Emma being more open with them now will allow them to get into some of this stuff, but I seem to remember saying the same thing regarding Emma getting her memories back and hoping the eleven years of fake memories along with the one year of real ones would have tempered her hurt a bit and opened her up enough to talk. And we all saw how 3B worked out, so I'm not exactly holding my breath for it. It just frustrates me because the Charming Family is a freaking emotional goldmine that could have provided potential storyline material for years and the show has squandered it.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[kili]

As it were, Neal sacrificed his life for pretty much nothing.  Emma didn't defeat Zelena.

 

Neal didn't sacrifice his life at all. He did something amazingly stupid and paid the price. He didn't do it to help Emma defeat Zelena (he didn't seem to care two sticks about what Zelena was up to). He did it to get back to his son which he did not achieve.

 

Neal knew that all magic comes with a price. He knew he'd be dealing with some serious dark magic. He knew that a witch with questionable motives was trying to trick him into resurecting his dad.  He knew that he would be enslaving his father once again under the dark curse. He knew there wasn't any real urgency (just a desire on his part not to wait).  His dad's girlfriend begged him to wait until they could do some research. He's like the guy who decide to save time and blow dry his hair in bathtub despite the fact he has 4 hours before he wants to leave. You don't deserve to die because you are stupid and ignore all the warnings, but it doesn't mean you're a hero who sacrificed his life.

 

If Adam and Eddy really wanted to make Neal a hero, they could have done a hell of a better job than "Bleeding Through".

 

Definitely. That was a mess. I guess they just figure if they tell us he is enough times, we'll believe it.

 

I suppose some people just have a deep need to hear Snow and Charming denouncing what Neal did?

 

I don't necessarily need a denounciation (although a nice punch in the nose like Charming gave Hook or Whale would have been a "Hell Yah" moment for me), but it does rankle that they actually lauded Neal and named their other child after him.  It's not like they don't know other heroic people they could have named their son after.

Edited July 30, 2014 by kili

[Camera One]

It just frustrates me because the Charming Family is a freaking emotional goldmine that could have provided potential storyline material for years and the show has squandered it.

 

I totally agree with this and I so wish the writers felt that way.  There was so much potential lost in S2 and even in S3 despite their claim that they would give us more Emma, Snow and Charming.  

Edited July 30, 2014 by Camera One