A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[tennisgurl]

I'm still super amused by thinking of Regina trying to get into the Queens of Darkness group by doing shots of booze and playing magic chicken with a train. That's not the stuff of supervillains, its the stuff of silly Lifetime movies about peer pressure. No wonder no villains had minions if minion school was so lame.

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I'm still super amused by thinking of Regina trying to get into the Queens of Darkness group by doing shots of booze and playing magic chicken with a train. That's not the stuff of supervillains, its the stuff of silly Lifetime movies about peer pressure. No wonder no villains had minions if minion school was so lame.

And remember how Emma was so worried?  "Enter the Dragon" was such a joke both flashback-wise and present-day.  As we coined it, "How Fifi Got Her Groove Back".  It's like the Writers had no idea what tone to take with the Queens.  I guess they were just bold and audacious, that's all.

[MadyGirl1987]

So I am starting a rewatch on Netflix, while all the shows I watch are done for the season, and just watched the pilot. While season 1 is great as is, I started thinking, while rewatching the pilot, of something that could have added an interesting dynamic to the first season. While they tell us from the start Henry is telling the truth, and the show tells us from the start the people from the EF were indeed brought to our world, what if they had played it ambiguous as to whether Henry is telling the truth or if he is really just connecting the stories to what is actually happening in Storybrooke. Are the flashbacks real events or how Henry sees the stories from his book in his head? This could have been a persistent question throughout the season until the finale when it is revealed  "OMG he is telling the truth!" It has been a while since I have watched the first season, so I am not sure how this would hold up with plots of the first season I am sure I am forgetting, but I can't help but think it would have been an interesting way to play it.

[Camera One]

On 6/3/2017 at 10:32 AM, Shanna Marie said:

I'm not sure where I got started on this mental rabbit trail, probably thinking about other shows from the discussion in the Other Fairy Tales thread, but it struck me how most of the villains on this show have been solo acts. The whole team of heroes has been up against basically one person, which explains all those static finales with one person fighting the villain while everyone else is frozen. It also probably has a lot to do with why the villains tend to be so overpowered. One person without minions or henchmen would be easy for a team of people to defeat, especially when that team includes people with magic powers, so the minionless villain has to have even more powers to be a viable foe.

In the past, Regina had her Black Knights, but where are they in Storybrooke? Did she send all of them to kill Baby Emma, so Charming killed them all? She had Graham and Sidney as lackeys, but wouldn't she have wanted her own private army, as well? Maybe a bunch of black-suited mayoral aides or bodyguards? Wouldn't she have wanted minions on hand to protect her if the curse broke?

This was also true for the heroes.  Where are Snowing's loyal knights whenever there is a threat?  

For the rare time their "loyal subjects" do show up (for example, when they all partook in the diluted Sleeping Curse), it was clearly a bunch of extras, so it felt totally fake and completely missed the emotional target.

I think it all comes down to the lacklustre worldbuilding, where A&E don't see the general population or even guest victims like Johanna or Edmund Dantes as real people.  The main characters don't give them a second thought once the episode is over.  It extends to repeat supporting characters like Marian or even Blue.  For example, no one showed any visible reaction when Blue came back to life the first time, and everyone was looking at Marian like she had three heads in the 4A premiere.

[Camera One]

Considering it was Zelena's last season, instead of that pointless flashback with the Tin Man, or the lame-o scenes with The Evil Queen, why not have Zelena go back to Oz to redeem herself to the Munchkins and other citizens?  Why not have her make nice with Glinda... where the hell is she anyway?  

If A&E did indeed know it was Ginny and Josh's last season, what was with all the filler for them?  Why would there not be a final adventure for Emma/Snow or Emma/Charming or Emma/Snowing?  When did they decide Snow didn't want to be kickass and just wanted to be pathetic Mary Margaret?  I mean, these ARE the same Writers who decided in 5B that Snow didn't want to be MM anymore, right?  Or did they knock their heads and totally forgot that?  The influx of the Land of Untold Stories people (driven away by the Evil Queen, maybe) could have really made Snow re-evaluate her life.

And then, there was Belle.  When did A&E decide she was out?  Rumple is staying on the show, so why was all the focus still on him?  Belle didn't even get to spend some time with Adult Gideon after they were reunited.  

And this doesn't even touch the Emma's last season stuff, though A&E gave the impression that they knew early enough to create their dumb "reboot".

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

I think it all comes down to the lacklustre worldbuilding, where A&E don't see the general population or even guest victims like Johanna or Edmund Dantes as real people.  The main characters don't give them a second thought once the episode is over.  It extends to repeat supporting characters like Marian or even Blue.

True. Their world was extremely limited, with little thought to what existed beyond the main characters. The world was weirdly unpopulated. They managed to fit an entire kingdom (and more) into a small town (did they ever say what Storybrooke's population was? I'm from a town of about 2,000 at the time I lived there, so I have a different perspective on what counts as a "small town"). They fought a war, so there must have been armies. What did the people who fought for Snow think about her becoming best buds with Regina, the person they were at war with? We don't know because they ceased to exist. I guess they had a crack in the wall in town that made people vanish throughout the series, like that season of Doctor Who in which people kept being swallowed by the crack so that they had never existed. Season one, Storybrooke seemed like a real town. By season 6, you could easily walk down the middle of Main Street in the middle of the day and the only risk you'd run was if Zelena was having a driving lesson. After they forgot about the Untold Stories people, the only customers at Granny's were the main characters. Snow and Charming, who'd been ruling two kingdoms, had no allies other than their close friends, no enemies other than the Guest Villain of the Arc. They had what looked like an army of servants, based on the scene in the musical, but where were those people in Storybrooke? And what about that castle full of guests we saw in the Missing Year? Where were they in Curse 2.0? There was never any sense of a culture or society.

[Camera One]

19 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Snow and Charming, who'd been ruling two kingdoms, had no allies other than their close friends

It makes no sense why they would need to do absolutely everything themselves.  Not once did the "heroes" go to the Fairies or other sage hero characters for advice or knowledge.  Never did they have extra muscle on Main Street.  They went to the library themselves (usually it turned out to be useless, meant to get them offscreen), or begged for the help of Rumple.  Regina and Zelena seemed to know everything for no reason ("The Dark Curse is going to start at 6pm sharp!", "Looks like The Evil Queen baked a failsafe in that double heart Sleeping Curse", etc.).   None of the rulers of the other countries (Aurora/Philip, Eric/Ariel, Cinderella/Prince, etc.) were ever consulted on anything, not to mention the people.  In the Enchanted Forest, they relied on their War Council, but when was the last time Granny, Gepetto, Grumpy, Jiminy or Blue were even included in their decision-making.  And "decision-making" was almost always blindly reacting to situations with zero preparation or forethought.  

Edited June 5, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

None of the rulers of the other countries (Aurora/Philip, Eric/Ariel, Cinderella/Prince, etc.) were ever consulted on anything, not to mention the people.

That's a really good point. There's royalty from other kingdoms in town, and yet Snow and Regina seem to be making all the decisions, and Regina is not only unquestioned as mayor, they stencil "queen" on her door at the end. Cinderella and her prince are still in town, we know. Maybe Philip and Aurora (unless they went through the doorway back to their world when the Camelot and Sherwood people left). But they're treated like subjects. That also makes the unpopulated town even weirder, since there are people from multiple kingdoms there, and yet the streets are deserted.

[Camera One]

There are so many hero types in town that you'd think everyone would be tripping over themselves to be the sacrifice that the villain-of-the-month demanded.

[KingOfHearts]

How do entire populations from many kingdoms fit in a single small town?

[Camera One]

"Storybrooke is bigger than it appears"

[KingOfHearts]

11 minutes ago, Camera One said:

"Storybrooke is bigger than it appears"

Storybrooke is a Tardis now?

[Camera One]

Just now, KingOfHearts said:

Storybrooke is a Tardis now?

Don't give away the plot for Season 13: Jason's Revenge.

[Camera One]

Time has only reinforced for me that the musical episode should have been the last episode.  There was nothing in the 2-hour finale that added anything significant or meaningful for any of the characters.  

[KingOfHearts]

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

Time has only reinforced for me that the musical episode should have been the last episode.  There was nothing in the 2-hour finale that added anything significant or meaningful for any of the characters.  

I didn't think the musical episode was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it was by far the best episode of the season. It provided more closure for the characters than the two hours of the finale combined. The finale was a big, "Oh yeah, we have to resolve the Black Fairy/Gideon plot." You can't persuade me to believe the writers didn't just throw that together last minute. 

I'm not sure how you would rework the musical episode as the finale, though. You'd need to intersperse the songs with character moments and plot. I would say it would have needed to be double length, but would be either too many songs or having the songs too spread apart.

[Camera One]

Aside from the musical numbers (minus the repetitive sing-off), much of the musical episode was weak and boring.

5 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm not sure how you would rework the musical episode as the finale, though. You'd need to intersperse the songs with character moments and plot. I would say it would have needed to be double length, but would be either too many songs or having the songs too spread apart.

The Wedding song causes the black cloud in the clocktower to disperse and The Black Fairy explodes.  The End.  We're never going to be getting quality character moments anyway, given the dreck was saw in the 2-hour finale.  

[Shanna Marie]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm not sure how you would rework the musical episode as the finale, though. You'd need to intersperse the songs with character moments and plot. I would say it would have needed to be double length, but would be either too many songs or having the songs too spread apart.

Well, I think for one thing, Emma's confrontation with the Black Fairy that used the Song in the Heart spell should have been the big, climactic final confrontation -- the Final Battle. It was weird having this thing went back to before her birth and included people who were enemies at the time but who one day would become important in her life, and she was carrying their songs with her along with those of her parents, and yet it only came into play in a minor skirmish that wasn't actually the Final Battle and that Emma provoked to try to head off the Final Battle that she still had to fight. So this spell that went back to before her birth just maintained the status quo. She would have had the exact same outcome if she'd spent the day getting spa treatments with her mother at the Three Bears' place instead of doing all the things she and the others did that led to her needing to unfreeze everyone. If the musical had been the finale, that would have meant the musical spell meant something. Everyone joining in the song as one chorus could have been the extra oomph needed to defeat the Black Fairy.

A two-hour musical episode with the wedding as the coda (replacing the Last Supper at Granny's) might have improved the pacing. There was so much time wasted in the finale with stuff that I guess was kind of entertaining but that meant nothing, like the beanstalk climb. I'd have rather had a musical as the two-hour finale gimmick than the return to the Enchanted Forest.

As much as I like some of the songs in the musical, I'd have rewritten the musical entirely. It still bugs me that most of the songs are "villain" songs that just state the main characteristic of those characters from their origins without telling us anything new. I'd rather have musical numbers that meant something, that brought out something they might not have expressed otherwise, and that meant that Emma was carrying around their true inner feelings rather than their obvious superficial traits. Emma particularly has some things in common with Zelena and Hook, with all of them being abandoned children. It would have been interesting and meaningful if their songs had been about things they had in common with Emma, and it turned out that carrying their songs with her through her whole life had been part of what helped her survive and gave her strength. As it is, you have to wonder what good it really did her to go around with "Revenge," "Wicked Always Wins" and "Love Doesn't Stand a Chance" in her heart.

[Camera One]

29 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

As it is, you have to wonder what good it really did her to go around with "Revenge," "Wicked Always Wins" and "Love Doesn't Stand a Chance" in her heart.

They are what made Emma bold and audacious.  

Yeah, the villains songs were almost like theme songs based on taglines.  Zelena... let's write a song called "Wicked Always Wins".  Hook sings about skinning a croc.  The Evil Queen can call Snow a bitch.  

Edited June 8, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

The Evil Queen can call Snow a bitch.  

Word.

[KingOfHearts]

In retrospect, Frozen should have been its own spinoff. The Frozen story was very self-contained. Other than the Emma/Elsa friendship no one has ever spoken of since, there wasn't any value to any of the interactions with the main characters. Ingrid's connection to Emma was pretty irrelevant when you really think about it. I would have preferred to see Anna and Elsa defeat the Snow Queen in Arendelle, but maybe with some cameos from other characters. Blackbeard, Rumple, etc. I thought the flashback narrative was okay other than Anna's grand tour of the Enchanted Forest. (Which, now that I remember, takes up a huge chunk of it.) 

Quote

 Zelena... let's write a song called "Wicked Always Wins".

From the master storytellers™ who brought you "Pan Never Fails". 

This show is difficult to rewatch because it banks so heavily on impending doom and shocking twists. Very little of it stands on its own. It's mostly the characters going, "Oh my gosh! This villain is trying to kill us! This totally hasn't happened before! We need to angst over this for nine episodes!" There's never any satisfying ending. A touching story about Charming coming to terms with his daddy issues? Nope, we got to have that Hook murder twist. The origin and death of Cruella DeVil? That's not good enough, we need to make Emma go dark from murdering her too.

Edited June 8, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

In retrospect, Frozen should have been its own spinoff. The Frozen story was very self-contained. Other than the Emma/Elsa friendship no one has ever spoken of since, there wasn't any value to any of the interactions with the main characters. Ingrid's connection to Emma was pretty irrelevant when you really think about it. I would have preferred to see Anna and Elsa defeat the Snow Queen in Arendelle, but maybe with some cameos from other characters. Blackbeard, Rumple, etc. I thought the flashback narrative was okay other than Anna's grand tour of the Enchanted Forest. (Which, now that I remember, takes up a huge chunk of it.) 

I am glad the Frozen story took place within the show, because despite its flaws, it was a good example of how to bring in guest arc characters, connect them deeply with main characters, while telling the guest characters' stories in a coherent and grand fashion.  Yes, it was self-contained and didn't affect much after, but that's the same with almost every arc since.  The Emma/Elsa friendship developed Elsa, but it also allowed us to see Emma dealing with being a magical person and all that entailed.  As convoluted as Ingrid' backstory was, it did afford an opportunity to see Emma's younger years and have her reflect on them a bit.  There was even a half-hearted attempt to incorporate Snow and draw a parallel with Elsa's parents, though that ended up on the cutting room floor (they missed out on Elsa helping Snow to become a leader/mayor since Elsa was a reluctant ruler).  Plus the interesting issues raised in "The Snow Queen" were dropped in the next episode.  Anna's tour through the kingdom wasn't a bad idea per se, just poorly executed.

The main problem of that arc for me still remains the B and C arcs with Regina/Author/Robin and Rumple/Hat Box.  If they had just done Regina working hard at redemption (doing stuff like returning all the hearts to the citizens and dealing with not being mayor anymore), and Rumple could have a storyline of trying to get over his trauma of being dominated/kidnapped for half an arc and losing Neal, this arc could have been well done.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

I am glad the Frozen story took place within the show, because despite its flaws, it was a good example of how to bring in guest arc characters, connect them deeply with main characters, while telling the guest characters' stories in a coherent and grand fashion.  Yes, it was self-contained and didn't affect much after, but that's the same with almost every arc since.  The Emma/Elsa friendship developed Elsa, but it also allowed us to see Emma dealing with being a magical person and all that entailed.  As convoluted as Ingrid' backstory was, it did afford an opportunity to see Emma's younger years and have her reflect on them a bit.  There was even a half-hearted attempt to incorporate Snow and draw a parallel with Elsa's parents, though that ended up on the cutting room floor (they missed out on Elsa helping Snow to become a leader/mayor since Elsa was a reluctant ruler).  Plus the interesting issues raised in "The Snow Queen" were dropped in the next episode.  Anna's tour through the kingdom wasn't a bad idea per se, just poorly executed.

The main problem of that arc for me still remains the B and C arcs with Regina/Author/Robin and Rumple/Hat Box.  If they had just done Regina working hard at redemption (doing stuff like returning all the hearts to the citizens and dealing with not being mayor anymore), and Rumple could have a storyline of trying to get over his trauma of being dominated/kidnapped for half an arc and losing Neal, this arc could have been well done.

The Regina/Author/Robin was my problem too. It could have been a good story if she was working hard at redemption or even just searching for who the author was that could have been interesting.  Instead she was looking for the Author because he was wrong about her and wanted the Author to write her a new Author. First, the book was never anything but recording what happened, she knew that, everyone knew that so listening to Henry and Regina claiming the book was wrong was ridiculous. Second a happy ending for Regina? If it ended with Regina learning she didn't deserve one or needed to work towards redemption that too could have been something. But it didn't and we never had anyone point out why she deserved one after everything she did. Having everyone jumping in believing that Regina deserved a happy ending and working to help her? Then we still had to sit through poor Regina losing Robin because the wife Regina murdered in the original timeline was back. Sit through her tearing into Emma for saving a woman's life, listening to Snow encouraging Regina to have an affair with Robin, who's wife was only in prisoned by Regina because Marian knew where Snow was and wouldn't give up her location. I'm still amazed by the complete insanity in Regina's arc.  

[Camera One]

The Writers never even bothered getting a handle on why The Sorcerer aka Merlin created the job of a Writer, what a Writer does, or what powers a Writer even has.  Not once did Merlin explain anything in 5A.  Henry records events randomly when he sleeps, but what about all the things happening in the Enchanted Forest?  Or in Other Realms?  Is he responsible for recording those stories?  Would he have to travel a lot?  If not, why is a Writer even necessary?  The "Writer" is just a tool of the Pen... anyone could be the Author.  Then, whenever it's convenient, his power is used, but at other times, using the Author's power is frowned upon.  Why would Isaac need to write Rumple's happy ending inside a book?  The Season 4 finale made zero sense.  Why was there another edition of the Storybook in the New York library?  Why did Henry become a zombie writing jibberish at the end of Season 6? 

Since next season focuses on Henry, the "reboot" will inherit this mess of a concept.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

54 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

The Regina/Author/Robin was my problem too.

That was such a weak, weird storyline. I think I was at peak fandom between seasons 3 and 4 because the season 3 finale left me with very high hopes. I had all kinds of thoughts going on for what might happen with Regina's story, ranging from her truly slipping back into evil as she tried to find a way to get rid of Marian before Marian could tell Robin what had happened to her to her really having a lot of personal growth out of it, gaining some empathy at last as she finally realized that her evil had caused so much harm to someone she loved. But they didn't do either of those things. They went in a totally different direction that made no sense -- no one reacted like a normal person, and Regina never really learned anything or grew as a person. There was that whole scene of him talking about what losing Marian did to him, then Regina found out she was at fault, and never once did she have a moment of "I was the one who did that to him!"

The Rumple/Hook story was okay up to a point. The two actors are incredibly dynamic together, which is the one thing that has me even slightly looking forward to the next season. However, the setup was so very clumsy (especially now that we know of even more horrible things Hook did while he had the hook, which makes the whole "evil hand" thing utterly silly), it got repetitive, and then it had perhaps the lamest payoff of any storyline other than the Final Battle.

48 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Why would Isaac need to write Rumple's happy ending inside a book?

That really made no sense, since none of Isaac's other meddling writing created an alternate reality inside a book. It just made things happen. The only thing I can think of is that this was changing the past, which can't be done. He wasn't just changing Rumple's future. He was making him never have been a Dark One and instead the Light One (the Savior? And does that mean that if that reality had become real, he'd have had to fight his mother?), and also changing all the other people. And we still don't know what Regina would have done if she hadn't had a change of heart about making the Author write her a happy ending.

51 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Why did Henry become a zombie writing jibberish at the end of Season 6? 

He was on deadline?

[CCTC]

Camelot had so much potential and they barely mined any of it.  Too bad because they had charismatic actors in Arthur and Merlin and I thought Nimue was creepier and scarier than the Black Fairy.  There is no reason they should not have been able to flesh out their characters more and make Camelot an interesting place full of its own kind of magic and quirks.  So much of it seemed throw away and a waste of an epic legendary tale.

[Kktjones]

10 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think I was at peak fandom between seasons 3 and 4 because the season 3 finale left me with very high hopes.

Same with me - I was so excited to see where they would go with a number of different things they set up at the end of Season 3. Then 4x01 came along which should have telegraphed how poorly they would handle everything that season. First they had Regina feeling sorry for herself and considering killing Marian again instead of having any self-awareness. Then they had Emma holding Hook at arms length the entire episode only to ditch him for Regina at the end. And finally it set up a season-long Emma/Regina arc that I absolutely despised. Their entire "friendship" arc was all about Emma's obsession with making Regina happy and getting R to like her. And all that after Emma had seen firsthand how Regina terrorized her mother in the past (including presumably burning her alive). Looking back Season 4 isn't as bad as Season 6, but I still think the author storyline is the worst one they've done. 

[Rumsy4]

12 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

Their entire "friendship" arc was all about Emma's obsession with making Regina happy and getting R to like her. And all that after Emma had seen firsthand how Regina terrorized her mother in the past (including presumably burning her alive).

This is one of the biggest reasons why S4 lowered my estimation of Emma. The REC makes the "heroes" look like enabling fools with little self-respect. It's mind-boggling that Emma was so ready to go along with the ridiculous plan to make an author rewrite Regina's life-history becasue the book was "wrong" about her. Tell that to her victims (other than Snow and Emma I mean).

Edited June 9, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

10 hours ago, Kktjones said:

I was so excited to see where they would go with a number of different things they set up at the end of Season 3. Then 4x01 came along which should have telegraphed how poorly they would handle everything that season.

I think the season 3-season 4 letdown was worse than the season 1-season t letdown. While 2A wasn't everything I hoped for and was excited about based on the end of season 1 -- the fallout of the curse, consequences on Regina, reunion of the Charming family, all the fairytale characters remembering themselves and forming a new society, etc. -- in retrospect, it's pretty good for what it is. It's one of my favorite arcs, although I was disappointed in it the first time around. The season 3 finale was what got me really excited about the series. It was between seasons 3 and 4 that I finally bought the DVDs and rewatched the whole series. I guess I didn't necessarily have high hopes for particular plot stuff, not like at the end of season one, but there was a lot of stuff I was enjoying, and there was some potential. But 4A was really pretty bad. The Frozen stuff was okay, but mostly wasted. I guess you could say it wasn't bad. The Hook and Rumple plot had potential but fizzled. The Regina plot was utterly terrible. The followup of the Hook and Emma relationship was lame, starting in the first episode and going to the arc finale, from her pushing him aside because of her fears and her guilt about Regina to her not reacting at all when her fears of losing someone she loved actually played out, and then her shoving his heart back in and running off to do shots with Regina. They barely spent any time together during the season, and we certainly didn't get any fun adventures with the two of them like we got in the 3 finale.

10 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

This is one of the biggest reasons why S4 lowered my estimation of Emma. The REC makes the "heroes" look like enabling fools with little self-respect.

That's an ongoing problem of the characters not being allowed to act like human beings. Emma got to see Regina in her full Evil Queenness, saw how Regina treated her mother, was imprisoned by her and scheduled for execution, and watched Regina execute her mother. You'd think that would have changed the way she viewed Regina, but instead it was treated like "oh, that wacky Regina back when she was a totally different person when she was evil," and then Emma even went on to beg for friendship from her. Who would do that? It made no sense and made Emma look like an idiot.

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

then Emma even went on to beg for friendship from her

And her reason for doing that was apparently because she pushed her toxic friend Lily away when they were kids, and her way of making up for it as an adult was to force Regina into a toxic friendship with her.

[Camera One]

10 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

And her reason for doing that was apparently because she pushed her toxic friend Lily away when they were kids

Gasp.  Did you just call Lily toxic?  She was a victim!

[KingOfHearts]

13 hours ago, Camera One said:

Gasp.  Did you just call Lily toxic?  She was a victim!

A victim like Rumple, of course!

[Camera One]

Didn't anyone else cry when they realized Baby Rumple would be left without a mother after that horrible Blue banished her?  All Fiona wanted to do was to protect her child.  The world is so unfair.

[Camera One]

On 6/7/2017 at 8:04 PM, Shanna Marie said:

As much as I like some of the songs in the musical, I'd have rewritten the musical entirely. It still bugs me that most of the songs are "villain" songs that just state the main characteristic of those characters from their origins without telling us anything new. 

After listening to the songs yet again, this comment really resonated with me.  It's like most of these songs are providing REVIEW for audiences that might have quit the show over the course of S3 or S4 or S5 or S6, to "review" everyone's origin stories and motivations.  Launching into a 2-hour finale which was basically the Season 1 Curse all over again so any lapsed ex-fan can tune in and sort of understand what was happening.  

[Shanna Marie]

On 6/9/2017 at 11:03 PM, Camera One said:

Did you just call Lily toxic?  She was a victim!

A victim of these writers' inability to develop their concepts. I think that was a big part of the problem with the entire Author storyline. That whole story was built around the idea of heroes and villains, darkness and light, good and evil, but I don't think they were ever clear about what any of that meant. Sometimes, heroes and villains were basically sports teams -- if you were a hero, you wore the white jersey, and if you were a villain you wore a black jersey, and you could change teams by changing shirts, or at times it was like you could never change teams, no matter how much you did. At other times, heroes and villains were based on what the book said about you. And sometimes it was actually about what you did -- but then sometimes you were always doomed to a villain ending even if you became a hero, and sometimes villains could get happy endings if they changed their ways and attitudes. But then it turned out that the Author didn't do anything in the book, and there wasn't a rule about villains not getting happy endings if they changed, unless maybe there was? And then sometimes they used "dark" and "light" interchangeably with "villains" and "heroes," and sometimes that was about what a person did and sometimes it was like a physical condition, so someone was predestined to be dark or light based on something done to them before birth. And they didn't seem to have a clear idea what "darkness" even was -- was it a tendency toward evil? Was it a tendency to make poor choices? Was it bad luck? They seemed to say with Rumple that it was evil, but with Lily it was like it just kept her from making good choices (and then later they seemed to equate it to depression). How can they build a coherent story around a concept they haven't figured out for themselves? It's not even like they were exploring different possible answers to the question of what a hero was and what a villain was. They just seemed to change the approach to the concept based on the needs of the plot for that particular episode.

The Lily stuff may have been some of the most offensively bad writing in the series. You'd think they were hardcore fundamentalists, what with the pregnant woman's worth being judged on the basis of the fetus she was carrying and the sense of the "elect" in having your fate decided before birth, like some kind of original sin vs. born with purity if your parents just do the right thing.

[Writing Wrongs]

Before the season started, they hyped up Aladdin, Jasmine and Jafar and now I can't really recall much of that storyline. Wasted opportunity.

[KingOfHearts]

Not sure which thread it was, but we were talking about villains being solo acts. Regina's position as the Evil Queen is a bit ridiculous. It was pretty obvious, by the end of season 2, that Rumple was the only reason she was still on top of things. He was constantly obligated to clean up her messes. That's not really a terrible idea. In the first person, she's portrayed as a sly but ruthless ruler. To find out Rumple was the real mastermind makes her role a bit more complex. The problem is that she's still regarded as "Queen". The show has never addressed the fact she's actually spoiled and not that bright when it comes to leadership. The game was rigged. She doesn't stand on her own, but the writers beg to differ.

I did like how in S1, Regina had her team of lackeys in Storybrooke. Sure they were working against their will, but at least she had to network to get things done. Sometimes Sidney screwed up, and sometimes people like Graham would defect. That made the conflict more interesting and complex. It wasn't just, "we gotta kill Regina in her sleep".

Quote

After listening to the songs yet again, this comment really resonated with me.  It's like most of these songs are providing REVIEW for audiences that might have quit the show over the course of S3 or S4 or S5 or S6, to "review" everyone's origin stories and motivations.  Launching into a 2-hour finale which was basically the Season 1 Curse all over again so any lapsed ex-fan can tune in and sort of understand what was happening.  

It's obvious the songwriting was outsourced. The writers gave the songwriters a briefing on each character, then they just went off that. All the characters were basically singing, "Here's my character description... in song!" For supposedly being directly tied to the show's mythology, the musical had little to do with anything.

Edited June 12, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The problem is that she's still regarded as "Queen". The show has never addressed the fact she's actually spoiled and not that bright when it comes to leadership. The game was rigged. She doesn't stand on her own, but the writers beg to differ.

That's a big trouble with the dwarfs bowing to her at the end. Maybe I could buy everyone tolerating her presence, but bowing to her as queen? She never truly demonstrated leadership, not even in that Guardians of the Galaxy moment, since that was saving Robin from the consequences of what she demanded that Emma do, to erase the consequences of her own evil. She just stepped up to save her boyfriend. The Evil Queen was the one acting queenly during the Black Fairy's curse. And Regina was a terrible queen. She did so many horrible things that had nothing to do with Snow.

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

All the characters were basically singing, "Here's my character description... in song!" For supposedly being directly tied to the show's mythology, the musical had little to do with anything.

And their character description from their initial introduction, at that. It doesn't work as a catchup, unless someone's never watched at all, and in that case, the songs just make things more confusing. If you needed to be reminded that Hook was after revenge, you'd be wondering why Emma was marrying him. If you needed to be reminded that Regina hated Snow, then you're probably confused by the whole series. If you needed to be reminded what Zelena's deal was ... well, then I guess you could still have been watching the show all along and forgot because Zelena's been so random all along and disappears from the story for long stretches of time.

I think the songs are just a factor of the songwriters being Broadway people. They wrote perfect Act One songs for these characters if this were a Broadway musical. They just didn't make sense for songs that fall into what's essentially the last few scenes of a show, since this is the sixth season of the series and near the end of this phase of the series. Didn't they say that these songwriters approached the producers with the offer to write songs for a musical episode? I don't think they needed to be given a description. They got the characters. I have this theory that these songs were just their demos to show that they could write songs for these characters, and it was the series writers who created the story framework and stuck in these songs.

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

That's a big trouble with the dwarfs bowing to her at the end. Maybe I could buy everyone tolerating her presence, but bowing to her as queen? 

And to think that was Eddy's favorite scene.  And there were people tweeting Adam how they loved that scene.  It really makes one wonder.

[Shanna Marie]

12 minutes ago, Camera One said:

And there were people tweeting Adam how they loved that scene.

Of course there were. Regina has a legion of fans who identify with her and who have such a strong head canon about her that they've lost track of what actually happened on the show. Then again, that's often how she's written, where what's on the screen often has very little relationship to what's been on the screen. Are the writers reading Regina-centric fanfic and forgetting that this stuff didn't happen in the show?

[txhorns79]

I have a question.  They establish that the characters are trapped in a repeating time loop until Emma first comes to Storybrooke and time begins moving forward.  No one ages and Regina simply experiences the same day over and over.  However, it's also established that Henry clearly was not trapped in that time loop as he was adopted a baby, and has aged to the point where he goes out to find Emma in the pilot.  I may have missed it, but did they ever establish what, if anything, Henry had been told about why no one seemed to age and days repeated themselves?  Even if Regina tried to convince him there was nothing going on, I don't see how that cover would be all that plausible.  I mean, once he was in school, wouldn't he notice that the lessons never change, and he ages, but his class doesn't?  

[Camera One]

No, they never established what Henry was told, other than that he was crazy and he should go into counselling.  I suppose if Henry grew up in that type of situation, he might think it's normal?  Or maybe Regina brewed some memory tea every night.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Of course there were. Regina has a legion of fans who identify with her and who have such a strong head canon about her that they've lost track of what actually happened on the show. Then again, that's often how she's written, where what's on the screen often has very little relationship to what's been on the screen. Are the writers reading Regina-centric fanfic and forgetting that this stuff didn't happen in the show?

As a former Regina fan, I found no joy in the dwarves' queen scene. Even if you take away all the crap from the rest of S6. The dwarves, especially Grumpy, were some of the most skeptical of Regina's redemption. They were happy to watch her die in S2. Regina has always insulted them, called them children, munchkins, whatever. They've always had this mutual antagonistic relationship. I guess the writers thought that made the scene all the more compelling. It would be powerful if Regina had done anything major to earn their respect. But, again, she gets a freebie just for being the writers' pet. I would have rather seen her go on a date with Nottingham or something. I'd ship that sooo hard. (Here's hoping for S7.)

Edited June 13, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Bringing up Henry in that environment was probably the most abusive thing Regina did to him. He stood no chance of having friends when he kept growing up and all the other kids stayed the same age. He wouldn't have been able to have a girlfriend since he would have kept growing older while all the girls stayed the same age. He'd have maybe been able to maintain a relationship for a year or two at most. Getting married would have been impossible. Would she have let him leave town to go to college? What if he wanted to take a job outside Storybrooke? Or would she have kept him more or less a prisoner in her house as he grew up, grew older, eventually got older than her, and died of old age, all while she stayed frozen in time?

3 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It would be powerful if Regina had done anything major to earn their respect. But, again, she gets a freebie just for being the writers' pet.

That's where I got the feeling that they forgot that their fanfic headcanon wasn't what happened on the show. It was like they thought there had been some major thing that Regina had done to really earn her office and earn the respect of the dwarfs. It was such a random scene with no real reason for it. I can't imagine that the loose end anyone felt needed tying up was what the dwarfs thought about Regina. They haven't interacted much other than her belittling them. She doesn't seem to have cared whether or not they respected her. She's coming back for the next season, and the dwarfs easily could, so it's not like we needed to wrap up their relationship now. That scene was a big "what the hell?" and "why?"

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

That scene was a big "what the hell?" and "why?"

I didn't even notice "QUEEN" on the door the first time I watched it. That made it confusing.

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

She's coming back for the next season, and the dwarfs easily could, so it's not like we needed to wrap up their relationship now. That scene was a big "what the hell?" and "why?"

She's coming back next year, so they could easily have done The Evil Queen sacrifices herself for all humanity next season too.  Yet they thought it was appropriate to give her the spotlight in the 2-hour finale which ushers out half the cast.  These Writers have the knack for reaching new depths when you thought the game of limbo was over.

[RadioGirl27]

Quote

That scene was a big "what the hell?" and "why?"

The writting of this show in a nutshell. 

[TheGreenKnight]

12 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Not sure which thread it was, but we were talking about villains being solo acts. Regina's position as the Evil Queen is a bit ridiculous. It was pretty obvious, by the end of season 2, that Rumple was the only reason she was still on top of things. He was constantly obligated to clean up her messes. That's not really a terrible idea. In the first person, she's portrayed as a sly but ruthless ruler. To find out Rumple was the real mastermind makes her role a bit more complex. The problem is that she's still regarded as "Queen". The show has never addressed the fact she's actually spoiled and not that bright when it comes to leadership. The game was rigged. She doesn't stand on her own, but the writers beg to differ.

I did like how in S1, Regina had her team of lackeys in Storybrooke. Sure they were working against their will, but at least she had to network to get things done. Sometimes Sidney screwed up, and sometimes people like Graham would defect. That made the conflict more interesting and complex. It wasn't just, "we gotta kill Regina in her sleep".

I agree with all of this. This is why I'm still angry that we never got the Rumpel versus Regina battle I expected to happen from watching S1. I almost had a glimmer of hope we might finally get it with the whole TEQ storyline being the cliffhanger at the end of S5 (I had a post in the Villains of OUAT thread on how TEQ could've worked as a serious threat instead of just an excuse to have more of Lana in costume), but nope. That was the Final Battle I always assumed was being foreshadowed. Rumpel versus everyone, perhaps Rumpel versus the universe (ie, the Greek gods, or the Norse gods, something mythical) in his pursuit of power. Regina was always a pawn--of both Rumpel and Cora (part of the reason I wanted the show to write Regina as being Rumpel's daughter during the S2 Cora flashbacks). If anything, the flashbacks in later seasons flanderized her to a degree, making her appear even more driven by emotions and unintelligent. At least in S1, we had the present day tug-of-war with Emma and the flashback of Regina manipulating Sidney to kill the King.

And I thought the dwarves bowing to her in the S6 finale was stupid, too. I can perhaps believe that Snow, Emma, and Archie (and ofc Henry and Zelena) might be as close to Regina as they are (through extraordinary forgiveness), but everyone else in the main cast and the town I can only see as having a civil relationship with her, or a snarky, sniping relationship like with Grumpy/Belle. I can't believe that was the "ending" for Regina (as far as the original cast all being together goes), but she got a much better run on this show than Rumpel. I don't hate the show like a lot here seem to, but there were quite a lot of missteps and lost opportunities over the years for this show's characters. And I still liked Regina at the end, although they never pushed the character as far as they could have.

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I agree with all of this. This is why I'm still angry that we never got the Rumpel versus Regina battle I expected to happen from watching S1. I almost had a glimmer of hope we might finally get it with the whole TEQ storyline being the cliffhanger at the end of S5 (I had a post in the Villains of OUAT thread on how TEQ could've worked as a serious threat instead of just an excuse to have more of Lana in costume), but nope. That was the Final Battle I always assumed was being foreshadowed. Rumpel versus everyone, perhaps Rumpel versus the universe (ie, the Greek gods, or the Norse gods, something mythical) in his pursuit of power. Regina was always a pawn--of both Rumpel and Cora (part of the reason I wanted the show to write Regina as being Rumpel's daughter during the S2 Cora flashbacks). If anything, the flashbacks in later seasons flanderized her to a degree, making her appear even more driven by emotions and unintelligent. At least in S1, we had the present day tug-of-war with Emma and the flashback of Regina manipulating Sidney to kill the King.

And I thought the dwarves bowing to her in the S6 finale was stupid, too. I can perhaps believe that Snow, Emma, and Archie (and ofc Henry and Zelena) might be as close to Regina as they are (through extraordinary forgiveness), but everyone else in the main cast and the town I can only see as having a civil relationship with her, or a snarky, sniping relationship like with Grumpy/Belle. I can't believe that was the "ending" for Regina (as far as the original cast all being together goes), but she got a much better run on this show than Rumpel. I don't hate the show like a lot here seem to, but there were quite a lot of missteps and lost opportunities over the years for this show's characters. And I still liked Regina at the end, although they never pushed the character as far as they could have.

I would have loved to see a Rumple and Regina battle! That would have been a lot of fun. Plus with their history, their powers and their personalities you really would have thought they'd gone up against each other at least once in a big epic battle. Regina had no issues over learning she'd been duped into casting the Curse for Rumple? That he built it into fail from the beginning and all the other ways he manipulated her? Why didn't she ever targeted him? She blamed Snow for everything why not blame Rumple too and go after him for Revenge? It doesn't make sense she never would have. Same with Rumple, from Regina holding Belle the entire time to her comments at the end of season one when Regina tells him she found away to keep the curse intact why wouldn't he have gone after her at the Curse was broken? Yes, I know Belle made him promise not to but it never stopped him later. He could have gone after when she sided with Cora to kill him or while "Lacey" was around that would have been more fun then Tamara and Greg in season two. Speaking of Lacey that could have been another reason to build towards Rumple and Regina battle. That could have been a lot of fun! Pan could have taken advantage of the two distracted in their fight to still kidnap Henry, Its amazing we never even saw one battle between them. 

Edited June 13, 2017 by andromeda331

[Shanna Marie]

14 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

That was the Final Battle I always assumed was being foreshadowed. Rumpel versus everyone, perhaps Rumpel versus the universe (ie, the Greek gods, or the Norse gods, something mythical) in his pursuit of power.

That would have made a lot more sense for a Final Battle (TM) than a character who only just now appeared and who doesn't really have any relationship or history with anyone but Rumple. While they went a bit overboard with every villain having a deep, personal connection with one of the main characters, this one just seemed irrelevant, in spite of being a relative. In spite of that blood tie, Rumple himself had no relationship with her. No one but Blue (who was strangely offscreen for most of this) knew her. She just came out of nowhere, not connected to anything, and without any reason for doing what she was doing other than prophecy. A climactic final battle should have involved more of the characters.

10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Regina had no issues over learning she'd been duped into casting the Curse for Rumple? That he built it into fail from the beginning and all the other ways he manipulated her? Why didn't she ever targeted him? She blamed Snow for everything why not blame Rumple too and go after him for Revenge? It doesn't make sense she never would have.

That has never made sense to me. He duped her into murdering her own father to cast the curse, the curse wasn't what she really wanted, and he planned for it to fail. On top of that, her mother was killed to save his life. And she happily co-exists with him? She never schemed to get revenge on him?

10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Same with Rumple, from Regina holding Belle the entire time to her comments at the end of season one when Regina tells him she found away to keep the curse intact why wouldn't he have gone after her at the Curse was broken? Yes, I know Belle made him promise not to but it never stopped him later.

He made the one attempt with the Wraith, and then it was like he shrugged his shoulders and said, "Well, I tried." (And I'm not sure why the heroes bothered saving Regina from the Wraith. At that point in the story, she more than had it coming.)

[Camera One]

Look at how Maleficent didn't spend a minute getting angry at Regina for keeping her in dragon form underground for 28 years, or Rumple for using her as potion storage knowing she would die to get it out.  Her only anger was at the eggnappers.  It's ridiculous.