A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The Neal thing I think is just bad math.  You seriously think they went, "Wouldn't it be cool if an adult slept with an underaged girl?"

I don't think they thought it was cool. I just don't think they considered that it might be problematic that an adult man (or who looked like one) was sleeping with a teenage girl. I'm not sure they really remembered exactly how young Emma was supposed to be (considering they showed her in a very adult-looking prison), in spite of the fact that her age and the fact that she was still a juvenile when she gave birth to Henry (since her records were supposed to have been sealed) were plot points in the first season. I don't think they even considered giving Neal a specific age during the flashback or that it might be necessary so we'd know how to read it -- did they mean her to be taken advantage of by someone older and more experienced without thinking that it would technically be considered statutory rape, or did they consider that since Emma and Neal were apparently contemporaries in the present, they were about the same age in the flashbacks? If the latter, the casting worked against them there because I couldn't buy him as 24, let alone 19 or so (seriously, they couldn't have mascaraed or rinsed the gray in his hair for the flashbacks?), and in the present he looked much older than Emma, in spite of the actors being close in age (JMo looks young for her age and is actually passing as around 30 in spite of being quite a bit older than that now, MRJ looks old for his age). And, as I mentioned, he was at a disadvantage, since we didn't know the "adult" Neal other than that brief scene, so we didn't have a basis of comparison to tell us that this was Neal at a different phase in his life (but when we did really meet adult Neal, he was exactly the same). The only onscreen hint we have as to his age was the Wanted poster, and whether or not it was meant to be accurate or legible, it was on the screen.

In general, they're bad about seeing what they meant to show rather than what's on the screen, and about not thinking things through or considering how things might read. Not just the sex stuff, either. There are those dwarfs that are bred for labor. There are all the non-consensual memory wipes used for control within relationships. There doesn't seem to be anyone on the writing or production staff with a cringe reflex who can say, "Um, we might want to reconsider that. It doesn't come across well." Or, in this case, "How old is Neal supposed to be here? Because Emma's young enough that she'll still be a minor nine months later, and this is looking a bit skeevy."

[tri4335]

I don't think they thought through anything with age differences between Emma and Neal. They just didn't want the "twist" that Neal was Baelfine to be revealed and for Emma's record to be sealed so she had to be underage.  The statutory rape thing was never what turned me off from Neal; It was his holier than thou attitude after he learned Henry was his son and how he treated Emma from that moment. But that too I blame on A & E!  To protect their twists, they deliberately keep their actors/actresses in the dark and I think MJR an JMO played their scenes with the thought that Neal was to blame for Emma's misfortune and he was deflecting blame. And as a result some/many of the audience members (I know this up for debate) responded accordingly then later, it was all "you had no choice etc" (basically the same shit they pull for anyone who screws over Emma and are now busy whitewashing everyone's motives)- yet Emma still is held to higher standards by both the creators and the parts of the fandom. As I've said in many threads all roads lead to A & E and their basic inability  to run a show!

[andromeda331]

4 minutes ago, tri4335 said:

I don't think they thought through anything with age differences between Emma and Neal. They just didn't want the "twist" that Neal was Baelfine to be revealed and for Emma's record to be sealed so she had to be underage.  The statutory rape thing was never what turned me off from Neal; It was his holier than thou attitude after he learned Henry was his son and how he treated Emma from that moment. But that too I blame on A & E!  To protect their twists, they deliberately keep their actors/actresses in the dark and I think MJR an JMO played their scenes with the thought that Neal was to blame for Emma's misfortune and he was deflecting blame. And as a result some/many of the audience members (I know this up for debate) responded accordingly then later, it was all "you had no choice etc" (basically the same shit they pull for anyone who screws over Emma and are now busy whitewashing everyone's motives)- yet Emma still is held to higher standards by both the creators and the parts of the fandom. As I've said in many threads all roads lead to A & E and their basic inability  to run a show!

I agree. While he looked much older the Neal. How Neal treated Emma and sent her to jail for his crimes were what made me hate him.

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

I seriously doubt they intentionally wrote a statutory rape scenario.

I also doubt they realized Regina was raping Graham for 28+ years until they heard the clamor from viewers. But it doesn't mean Neal's relationship with Emma wasn't statutory rape, or that Regina did not rape Graham. The one piece of evidence we do have on Neal's age is the Wanted Poster. I don't see why people are so reluctant to accept it. This was the time period when the Show was still reasonably okay with timelines. If that Wanted Poster had been seen in Season 5 onwards, I can understand the skepticism to take it as face value.

Baelfire was probably around 14/15 when he escaped Neverland and came to the Real World. It's unlikely he was able to steal an ID that showed him as 20 years old, or convince people he was actually 20. Unless there's another retcon/flashback showing that Neal was still in his teens when he was with Emma, I'm going to assume that he was 24 or pretty close to it at that time. 

ETA: Also, MRJ wasn't even artificially made-up/dressed to look like a teenager the way JMo was. She was in the standard TV-convincing teenager attire. Clearly neither prop nor the makeup departments were given instructions to age MRJ down. So, if people still want to believe that Neal was actually just 2/3 years older than Emma, then it's not because of canon. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Dianthus]

It's weird, though, because Jane E. worked on BtVS and they did an episode (Tabula Rasa) about Willow doing a memory wipe on Tara to make her forget about an argument they had, which subsequently ended up affecting the whole gang, and led to Willow and Tara's break up.

Angel and Buffy's night of passion was also statutory rape (and definitely a much older man[pire] with a teen), even as they made a big deal out of it being Buffy's birthday and she was supposedly (barely) legal. The Age of Consent differs from state to state (I think). In CA, that's 18, so she was still a year shy of that milestone.

[Camera One]

I don't see why people are so reluctant to accept it. This was the time period when the Show was still reasonably okay with timelines.

Mainly because with several shows I've watched, the writers/showrunners don't necessarily see/check every prop.  I've seen 15 year olds look like adults.

A&E may be dense but they're seriously warped or ill-read if they needed "clamor from viewers" to realize adults sleeping with minors is against the law.  I find that a completely different type of situation from Regina/Graham, where A&E did not see it as rape.  To me, it's more of a case that A&E forgot that Emma's records were sealed, didn't minus 28 from Henry's age, and there wasn't an explicit intent to create this age difference.  

Whereas the intent with Regina/Graham and Zelena/Robin were very blatant and points to their complete lack of sensitivity to the issue of male rape.

[KAOS Agent]

Bae first landed in Edwardian England. He was there a minimum of seven months before going to Neverland. This role was still played by Dylan Schmid.  If they wanted to imply that Bae was only a year or two older than this once he arrived here and met Emma, there would be very little problem in having Dylan play the role with a young actress playing Emma. Neal was meant to be older and jaded and not the idealistic young Baelfire. Having MRJ play the role gave the audience that visual cue rather than the show needing to explain it to us or show that journey on screen. MRJ even said that he did the whole glove thing on the swings on their first date to play on the older man taking advantage of the younger girl from "On the Waterfront". 

Statutory rape was not at all something they were thinking of. I really think they put zero thought into Emma's age. Even if they wanted Emma to be 18 at Henry's birth - very difficult since 10 year old Henry knocked on her door on her 28th birthday - there's still the 40 weeks of pregnancy to add and that assumes Emma & Neal slept together on the first night and she got pregnant instantly, which further complicates things since Emma didn't discover she was pregnant until she was in jail. That would put their relationship length in the realm of mere weeks. This is a level of detail the show would never get to. It's all very basic. Neal & Emma met. He acted as her mentor (also implying older) and her lover. He "helped" her by getting her to her destiny (aka we have zero explanation for why this was necessary other than a need to mesh with existing plot). Rather than bothering to give Neal a background that shows his time in Neverland, his time trying to fit into this world, his fear of his father, etc. They just said it's fate and absolved Neal of all crimes rather than delving into explaining his motivations for his actions.

[Amerilla]

7 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Statutory rape was not at all something they were thinking of. I really think they put zero thought into Emma's age. Even if they wanted Emma to be 18 at Henry's birth - very difficult since 10 year old Henry knocked on her door on her 28th birthday - there's still the 40 weeks of pregnancy to add and that assumes Emma & Neal slept together on the first night and she got pregnant instantly, which further complicates things since Emma didn't discover she was pregnant until she was in jail. That would put their relationship length in the realm of mere weeks.

 

 

 

 

 

They really have trouble with time, space and gestation on this show. Timestamps in Tallahassee and the S3 finale put Emma and Neal's meeting in 2001. Adam said at some point it was basically a summer romance, so Emma would have been 17-going-on-18, since her birthday is fixed at late October 23, 1983 and would have turned 18 in October 2001. If it was indeed a summer romance, taking place in the second half of 2001, then Henry couldn't have been born until the first half of 2002 even if he was conceived immediately. But that also means Henry can't *already* be 10 when he finds Emma in the pilot in October 2011 or 11 in Manhattan in the spring of 2012.

Most show wikis give Henry's birthday at August 15, 2001, based on the easter egg that Regina uses his birthday -- 815 -- for all her passwords which fits him being 10 in Oct 2011, but which can't be true if Emma and Neal meet in 2001, unless they met in early January, got pregnant immediately, and Henry was somewhat premature....and which would make Emma 17 when he was born, not 18 as she said. That also means he can't be 11 when he meets Neal in Manhattan, unless the time jump from the S1 finale to Manhattan was waaay longer than we thought, and Manhattan doesn't take place until the summer of 2002.

So I'm not sure I buy the "they paid more attention to timelines back then" argument.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Amerilla

[Shanna Marie]

I don't see how Emma could have already been 18 when Henry was born if he was already 10 on her 28th birthday, plus the fact that she was still in jail when she gave birth. Generally, a juvenile would be released at 18 from a juvenile offense. There have been huge controversies about people who killed as juveniles but who weren't old enough to be tried as adults having to be released when they turned 18, so I can't imagine that someone who'd been arrested for possession of stolen property would have been turned over to the adult justice system to serve out the rest of her time upon turning 18. And there was the sealed records thing. The story only works if Emma wasn't yet 18 when she gave birth. But then Emma's treatment is pretty ridiculous, on the whole. A homeless teen who'd run away from foster care and who was caught with one item of stolen property -- from a case where someone else was known to be responsible for the actual theft, with it on video -- probably wouldn't have been locked up the way Emma was and certainly wouldn't have been shackled while she gave birth. I'm not sure she'd have done actual time at all, maybe would have been put on probation and sent to a halfway house-style group home with more intense supervision.

But I suspect they didn't have any of the details worked out in the pilot. They just wanted a situation so desperate that Emma would have given up the baby for adoption, so pregnant in jail worked, and they didn't think about how she ended up in jail or the circumstances under which she got pregnant.

They also messed it all up with the Cleo flashback, with a bounty hunter going after Emma for an apparent later crime, which wouldn't have been under sealed records, and therefore Regina and Sydney would have been able to get the scoop on that. Not to mention, I'm not sure how Emma would have been able to be licensed as a bail bondsperson and allowed to carry a weapon if she had an adult record. How did she manage to get out of all that trouble? They wouldn't have stopped looking for her just because one bounty hunter died trying. She'd still have a warrant out for her arrest.

[tri4335]

The Cleo debacle is because they were well down the path of Neal is the hero who was the most heroic in all the lands narrative. The timing of Cleo should've dove tailed with the two years in Tallahassee.  She should've been watching Emma to see if Neal surfaced and then they could've become mentor/mentee with Cleo dying at the end of the two years and Emma "moving on" from Neal/giving up Henry and putting on her suit of armor.  Instead we get this two years before Henry shows up after we find out Emma was committing crimes as an adult, which clearly is in direct conflict with the Season 1 narrative. 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

But I suspect they didn't have any of the details worked out in the pilot. They just wanted a situation so desperate that Emma would have given up the baby for adoption, so pregnant in jail worked, and they didn't think about how she ended up in jail or the circumstances under which she got pregnant.

And Neal had to be such a jerk that Emma would lie about him to Henry. Neal had to be the man that made Emma harden her heart, got her pregnant, sent her to prison, and was sympathetically Baelfire. It's a side of effect of, "Wouldn't it be cool if Emma's lover was Rumple's son?" He has to be the hero and the douchebag. Regina's problem is the same, just on a larger scale. The writers need x character to antagonize the main characters so the plot will make sense, but they also want them to be seen as heroic later in order to dress up some phony character development. Plot > characters.

Edited April 21, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

23 hours ago, Camera One said:

That's what makes me the most angry... some retcons are whatever.  But this one, even though it's more subtle, is on the scale of eggbaby.  There was also the Baelfire retcon from earlier this season.  The bottom line is they don't care about the characters they are retconning.  

The problem is that they're not just destroying characters with these retcons. They keep undermining their own stories.

So, first we have the Charmings utterly desperate to fight the curse, like they're helpless against Regina. Then we learn that they actually had Regina captive and let her go. The curse never had to happen (yeah, Rumple would have found someone else, but they might not have targeted the Charmings or even that part of the world). At that time, it mostly made Regina look bad if she still cast the curse and did all the things she did to Snow during the curse after having been shown mercy. But then we learned about the village slaughter, which made Snow look pretty bad for having let go a person who'd been slaughtering her people. And then we learned that the village slaughter continued after Snow let Regina go. In the present we saw Snow unwilling to let Regina die to undo the failsafe (even though Regina originally planned to kill them all with it), even if it meant that they all died with her. And now we've learned that the Charmings had a chance to go to young Emma, but they chose to put their people first. Which means they were willing to give Regina a chance they never gave their daughter. Repeatedly.  The recent retcon wouldn't have been so bad if it hadn't been for the fact that they'd already let the person who'd slaughtered their people go so she could torment them again some more. They could have played the sacrifice card and said that as rulers they had to put the good of the entire kingdom first. But when they had a chance to do that, they didn't because Snow didn't want to feel bad. I think if I rewatched 2B now, I'd want to throw stuff at the TV.

At least the eggnapping, while stupid and weirdly out of character, doesn't really change that much. It does seem weird that they never talked about it, and it's awful that they brought up something that huge only to have it have no consequences, but you can pretty much isolate it to 4B, and who wants to rewatch that?

With Hook, they keep making the evil hand plot look even dumber. I complained at the time that it didn't make a lot of sense, considering that he was an upright naval officer and someone who was able to fall in love and have a long-term relationship while he had the hand, while with the hook he was driven to revenge. But they kept piling on stuff he did while he had the hook -- stealing Ursula's voice, killing his father, leaving his younger brother alone and orphaned, killing a helpless man who was tied up just to eliminate a witness. So the hand was going to turn him evil? The one possible rationalization was that he turned himself from a good man into a selfish pirate when he had the hand, but he turned his life around with the hook -- but then they gave us the additional backstory that he was a useless drunk who'd always struggled with darkness who turned his life around when he joined the Navy. That pretty much undermines a lot of the 4A plot, since the hand stuff was only to set up how Rumple kept Hook from telling the others what he knew about Rumple's scheming.

It doesn't help that the characters keep acting like they're learning the flashback stuff at the same time we are, even when they're the ones the flashback is about. It's like Snow and David didn't remember having the chance to go to Emma until now. Regina didn't remember taking the potion to make herself barren until we saw the flashback. The characters not only read the scripts to know what's important or whether they should be worried, they only have information about their own pasts when it shows up in a script.

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

They could have played the sacrifice card and said that as rulers they had to put the good of the entire kingdom first. But when they had a chance to do that, they didn't because Snow didn't want to feel bad. I think if I rewatched 2B now, I'd want to throw stuff at the TV.

You want some rage worthy stuff? I give you "The Cricket Game" (italics mine):
Jiminy Cricket: I fear the Queen will never change. We must dispense justice. 
Prince Charming: Agreed. What are our options? 
...
Granny: How about banishing her to another realm?
Jiminy Cricket: We can’t. It would be unconscionable to condemn another realm to the suffering that we’ve endured. 
Red: Jiminy’s right. She’s our problem, and we have to deal with her. 
Prince Charming: Then only one thing is certain – as long as the Queen lives, the kingdom is in danger. 
...
Snow White: You sure this is what we must do? 
Prince Charming: What choice do we have? As long as she draws breath, she will come after us – after you. 
Snow White: There’s always a choice. You stopped me from killing her once, took an arrow to save her. Why is this different? 
Prince Charming: I took that arrow to save your life, not hers. That was an assassination. This is an execution. If we don’t stop her now, there’s no telling what she’ll live to do.

Later in the episode:
Prince Charming: I’ve seen her kill, I’ve seen her terrorize. Every moment I’ve seen of her, has been one of evil. ... You want to rehabilitate the Queen? 
Snow White: Maybe showing her mercy is the first step. 
Prince Charming: But, if you fail, the entire safety of the kingdom is at stake. We cannot take that risk.

It's just mind boggling to read the arguments here and then see Snow choose to sacrifice Emma for the kingdom. Snow failed and Emma paid. Snow talked in the S2 finale about how she couldn't live with herself if she built her future on Regina's sacrifice. How can Snow live with herself after hearing Emma say this, "That look in his eyes. The despair. I had it back when I was in the foster system. Just a lost little girl who didn't matter and didn't think she ever would. A little girl who cried herself to sleep at night 'cause she wanted her parents so bad and could never understand why they gave her up." And the the next day, Snow actually told David that grown up Emma wasn't what she wanted. It's so awful. I thought the Baelfire retcon this season was bad. This one destroyed so much about Snow's previous moments with her daughter. 

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

And the the next day, Snow actually told David that grown up Emma wasn't what she wanted.

This new retcon makes that "secret" even more horrendous. Snow actually had the chance to raise 10-year old Emma and threw it away. Maybe Emma was already too stale by 10 years. But then, it's not like we ever see Snow taking care of her actual infant child anymore. Man, this Show has zero rewatch value, and barely any current watch value either. 

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

But then, it's not like we ever see Snow taking care of her actual infant child anymore. 

She sold that baby a few weeks ago.  Don't worry, we'll see the flashback in a future episode.

[Camera One]

Instead of calling episodes by their character centrics, we might as well call them by "The Object Of The Week".  So this past episode was the Crimson Heart episode.  The previous week was the Pixie Flower episode.  

[Shanna Marie]

14 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

It's just mind boggling to read the arguments here and then see Snow choose to sacrifice Emma for the kingdom. Snow failed and Emma paid. Snow talked in the S2 finale about how she couldn't live with herself if she built her future on Regina's sacrifice.

Yeah, we have Snow twice being willing to risk the lives of everyone in her kingdom for Regina's sake -- when she let her go after the war and when she wasn't willing to let Regina die destroying the failsafe -- but she wasn't willing to risk her people being reasonably safe, though cursed, for the sake of her daughter. It would have been such an easy fix -- just have Regina have made some kind of threat of what she would do to the people if she found out Snow and David were awake and had gone after Emma. Then at least there's a dilemma and lives at stake.

This also reflects on every other interaction with and reaction to Emma that Snow has had. I defended the Charmings in Neverland when they were talking about Snow staying with David because I didn't think it was so bad to allow their adult daughter to leave with her son and friends rather than leaving David utterly alone in Neverland, but now that we know they had a choice to be with Emma before and didn't take it, it makes this choice look worse. I can't imagine them ever being willing to choose anything other than Emma again. Or there was the debate about where to live during season two when they were growing beans. And what about when they were stuck in the Enchanted Forest, away from Emma again, and didn't seem to blink an eye, all while consoling Regina about losing Henry? That's what makes the retcon hard to believe, since it's so huge that it should have come up at all these other times, and it not coming up then makes the characters look unfeeling.

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

Instead of calling episodes by their character centrics, we might as well call them by "The Object Of The Week".  So this past episode was the Crimson Heart episode.  The previous week was the Pixie Flower episode.

Or maybe the previous week was the Wand Shard episode, since supposedly that's something that will help in the lead-up to The Final Battle. Though, going by the show's patterns, they'll discover what the wand piece does, be all ready to use it, and the Black Fairy will disintegrate it with a wave of her hand.

[KingOfHearts]

It's as though the arc didn't start until 6x16, "Mother's Little Helper". Everything before that was just an extension of 6A. Yes, Gideon was in town, but he was just as productive as the Evil Queen. Unlike her, he had a definite plan, which makes him look even sadder. Once the Black Fairy returned to the picture, immediately it felt like the show had an actual plot again. Ever since then, it's been about the "final battle" and stopping her. It's a very weak plot, but at the very least, it resembles one of the show's earlier arcs. Things are slightly better but that's by a microscopic amount.

Edited April 24, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Yes, Gideon was in town, but he was just as productive as the Evil Queen. Unlike her, he had a definite plan, which makes him look even sadder.

I wonder how many of the specifics of his plan were his plan, carried out under a general "get me to that world" order via his heart and how many were the Black Fairy's plan. Did the Black Fairy order him to get Savior tears in general, or did she specifically order him to send Emma's boyfriend away, then open a pub and pass out free drink coupons to lure Emma in for a girls' night out? And I still wonder how Gideon and/or the Black Fairy knew that Emma and Hook had a fight, when no one else knew about it. Was that a lucky accident that amplified the action of sending Hook away, or did one or the other somehow know about something that took place inside Emma's house, and they then capitalized on it?

We still don't know what the Black Fairy's goal is. There's all this "final battle" talk, but that's more a fate/prophecy thing. It doesn't tell us what the Black Fairy wants, so we're basically at Evil Queen 2.0 -- flouncing around town being generically evil while wearing goth drag queen attire.

[Camera One]

If Blue had such vital information, why wouldn't The Black Fairy have gotten Gideon to target her first?  The Gideon stuff doesn't really mesh with what we have now with The Black Fairy.  Why didn't The Black Fairy have Gideon prepare the crystals in the mines?  Instead of running around in the forest doing who knows what for several episodes.  

So what happened with Emma's prophesy visions?  Now she doesn't die from Gideon's stab wound?  Or is that still her destiny?  

Rumple is the one who called it The Final Battle.  Does he have no idea what it entails?  

As someone suggested in the episode thread, why don't they evacuate the town?  The Black Fairy's magic can't work in The Land Without Magic, right?  

She had that convenient crystal ball.  Why didn't she drop by conveniently when Zelena was putting all her magic into the Crimson Heart?  Why free Zelena and Regina so they could help Emma?  There's evil and then there's just stupid.

[jhlipton]

26 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Now she doesn't die from Gideon's stab wound?  Or is that still her destiny? 

Only when she has the shakes.

[Camera One]

I was reading an old article on how Netflix analyzed a variety of shows for how many episodes it took before the show "kept 70% of people on board for the rest of the season".  "Once Upon a Time" surprised me...  how many episodes do you think it took?  (the link tells you)

Edited April 26, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I'm not that surprised for binge watchers. That was probably the best shocking twist they've ever pulled off and the one that got me excited about the potential of what they could do with familiar fairy tales. You know, back in the day when they actually did something other than give villains sob stories or have random characters show up wearing familiar costumes and say "Hey, it's that famous Disney character. Bye, famous Disney character."

[KingOfHearts]

15 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I'm not that surprised for binge watchers. That was probably the best shocking twist they've ever pulled off and the one that got me excited about the potential of what they could do with familiar fairy tales. You know, back in the day when they actually did something other than give villains sob stories or have random characters show up wearing familiar costumes and say "Hey, it's that famous Disney character. Bye, famous Disney character."

I'm confused... to what shocking twist are you referring? I thought Episode 6 was "The Shepherd".

[Camera One]

Yeah, the ending was basically David gaining his fake Storybrooke memories.  I remember I felt really frustrated.  Maybe not to the point of quitting, but I picked up my season pass after the pilot, so I wouldn't have quit, even after that.  

Maybe "The Shepherd" solidified the audience that cared about Snowing and would see them through to the end of the season?  Since the previous two episodes were about supporting characters - Archie and Cinderella.  

Perhaps David is the lynchpin that held the key to the ratings of Season 1.  ;)

Edited April 26, 2017 by Camera One

[oncebluethrone]

I remember being hooked by episode 3

[Camera One]

The Pilot got me, but this show has been a roller-coaster for me from then on out.  I remember already losing faith a little by Episode 4.  The ending of "Snow Falls" with David's wife showing up already made me roll my eyes with the soap-opera-ness of it.  In Episode 4, Rumplestiltskin annoyed me, and I was extremely disappointed how they threw away the Cinderella story so cavalierly.   I hated that Emma had to owe Gold something by the end of it.  And then Episode 5, once again, we had Rumple the manipulator (which I was already tired of), and I thought the present-day mine storyline was really unengaging and unbelievable.  And then "The Shepherd" got me even more frustrated that The Evil Queen was winning again by getting David to remember the fake memories.  Then, the show hit a home run with "The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter" and pulled me back in completely.  Episode 8 showed for the first time that there is no payoff, with a silly Sheriff election instead of any actual fall-out or long-term consequences from the huge cliffhanger.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Camera One

[Arnella]

I clicked on the link and there were only a couple of shows I watch on it.  I realized that I don't get hooked on shows per se; it's a character (or actor) that sucks me in (for better or worse).  Here it was obviously Robert Carlyle (I'm still here for you Bobbie!).  Already a fan of the books for Dexter.  Only a casual viewer until hooked by Skylar for Breaking Bad and Daryl for Walking Dead although that show is seriously trying my patience as well.

I am so hoping that "final battle" really is final... as in series finale...

[oncebluethrone]

10 hours ago, oncebluethrone said:

I remember being hooked by episode 3

Actually now that I think about it, I became interested in the show by the end of the first scene and was hooked by the end of the pilot. I think Snow Falls was my first favorite episode (besides the pilot)

[daxx]

Honestly the scene with Emma and her cupcake then Henry showing up at her door was when I knew I was sucked in. 

[Shanna Marie]

13 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm confused... to what shocking twist are you referring?

When the first flashback showed Prince James being a jerk, so you think the flashback story is going to be about how he became a good guy. And then he got killed. And then we learned that Prince Charming was actually just a shepherd boy being forced to pose as a prince. It totally changed the way you see "Snow Falls," which is what a good revelation should do.

Though I was pretty much hooked by the opening scene of the pilot. But, yeah, that "Prince Charming" revelation was what got me excited for the show's potential. I think they've been trying too hard for shocking twists of that magnitude since then, but the problem is that the characters are already too well established for something that huge to work now. If we hadn't learned about the twin thing and had spent the whole series up to now thinking that David really was Prince James and then they told us about the switch now, I'd cry foul because it's so big it should have come up before now.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

It totally changed the way you see "Snow Falls," which is what a good revelation should do.

"What Happened to Frederick" did a similar thing with Kathryn. While not one of the best episodes of the first season, it subverted our expectations for her character. She was initially portrayed as the Disposable Fiancé, and rather unlikeable for complaining in the carriage, as well as breaking up Snowing. But in that episode, we learned she was actually a victim of Regina and King George. It totally changed how you saw the character. Yet, at the same time, it didn't retcon anything, either. 

And... then there was "The Stranger". The first bang-your-head-on-a-desk retcon. What exactly was the point of August if he didn't take care of Emma? Was he just there to give her moral support in Storybrooke? I'm only thinking in terms of S1. He was only there for the mystery element and, "Wouldn't it be cool if Pinnochio came with Emma to the real world?" There could have been better ways to service the plot, imo.

Edited April 26, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[andromeda331]

For me it was Emma slamming the guy's head against his steering wheel and her lack of concerned when he ran out of the restaurant because she already had a boot on his car so she just strolls out the restaurant. I knew I liked Emma then her cutting off a branch of Regina's apple tree only confirmed it. And later in the pilot episode when Henry gives the sad line "She doesn't love me, she only pretends to" I wanted to give him a hug. I liked Henry the most in season one. He was a cute kid with issues but I loved a lot of his and Emma's scenes "I'm not Pinocchio" "Right because that would be ridiculous." Henry grabbing the apple from Emma and throwing it over his shoulder. Emma had a lot of great reactions to the town.  I loved Emma and Snow meeting and Snow coming to bail Emma out later. Snow Falls I knew I wasn't going anywhere I loved Snow and Charming's cute meet and her smacking him with a rock, Charming later capturing her and them helping each other with ogres.  I didn't like Regina at all. The first episode she could have got rid of Emma just by playing nice and telling Emma she loved Henry, killing her father to cast the curse and destroying Henry by having him over hear that conversation between Regina and Emma. 

[Curio]

Ironically, the moment that sold me on the show was when Emma's lie detector knew Regina was lying about loving Henry...which has now been totally retconned. I quit the show for a bit after they didn't deal with Graham's death, so the moment that resold me on the show was the commercial introducing Captain Hook.

[Inquirer]

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For me it was Emma slamming the guy's head against his steering wheel

I don't like that moment.  It was trying way too hard to sell Emma as a "strong female character" when in actuality what happened was that Emma just flat-out physically assaulted a guy because he said something that hurt her feelings, he was not threatening her in any way.  That's behavior I'd expect from Regina, not Emma.  Taking a chainsaw to Regina's apple tree was better, since it was an indirect blow to Regina that was directly and justifiably in response to Regina's indirect blow to Emma in trying to have her arrested on false charges.  1x02 as a whole sold me much more than 1x01 did.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Inquirer

[Camera One]

49 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Thinking about the boring pattern of introduce villain, villain flounces around town being generically evil while heroes run around talking about needing to do something, and then villain finally acts and heroes respond in the arc finale ... it might be interesting to repeat part of the pattern of the first season in the sense of the villain actually succeeding in the premiere, and then they spend the arc working to defeat the villain. So, say, the villain arrives and successfully defeats the heroes to take over Storybrooke (or maybe transports them somewhere else to rule over them there) in the premiere. Then the rest of the arc is about the heroes being the resistance -- maybe winning small victories of defiance, learning more about the villain, spying on the villain, and coming up with a plan to overthrow the villain, which is carried out in the finale.

I guess in a way that's how things kind of go now, except the villain isn't doing much of anything during the time the heroes are trying to learn about the villain. It would make more sense if the villain isn't doing much because he/she is already in control and has carried out his/her plan.

Part of it is because the Writers' crutch is for the viewer to be in the dark about the villain, so the "heroes" must be as well.

That pattern described above sort of happened in 5B.  They were in Hades' world and had to play by his rules.  But the resistance didn't make much sense because he was MIA a lot and let so many things slide.  

In 6A, the heroes were solely in reaction mode.  Every week, they were passively reacting to whatever The Evil Queen or Hyde threw at them.  Even this past week, Zelena was just reacting to the gauntlet that The Black Fairy laid down.  The week before, they were just fixing the Curse that The Evil Queen put on Snowing.  The week before, Emma was reacting to/falling for Gideon's trap.  

[daxx]

It's so much better when the heroes have a specific goal (save Henry) than when they are just reacting to whatever the villain is doing.

[Shanna Marie]

19 hours ago, Camera One said:

That pattern described above sort of happened in 5B.  They were in Hades' world and had to play by his rules.  But the resistance didn't make much sense because he was MIA a lot and let so many things slide.  

They also weren't really trying to defeat Hades. They just wanted to get out of there and back to the world of the living. Henry occasionally brought up helping people in the Underworld move on, but that got forgotten for long stretches of time. The pattern kind of fits 3A, where Pan succeeded in his evil scheme to get Henry in the season 2 finale, and then the arc was about foiling his plan.

The kind of thing I'm thinking about would be if, say, the airship Hyde brought had been an actual invasion of Storybrooke, where he brought over people who were loyal to him, had an axe to grind against Storybrookers and/or had stories they wanted to see play out in their own way. He and his group of Vikings and Musketeers took over city hall, ousted Regina from the mayor's office and Emma and David from the sheriff's office, and pretty much took over the town, with the various Untold Stories people as enforcers. Liam 2.0 was out in the harbor in the Nautilus, patrolling, to keep people in town. Hyde was difficult to fight because magic didn't seem to do anything to him, and hurting him physically did no good. Our heroes tried to fight back in various ways -- sometimes by undermining him with the Untold Stories by helping those people and winning them over to their side, using the knowledge the people with Storybrooke memories had of classic literature to figure out what was going on. Sometimes they targeted Hyde's cronies, trying to weaken his power structure. All along, they were researching ways they might be able to defeat him. Some of them had to go underground or into hiding because they were being targeted. Maybe someone even got thrown into the psych ward prison/dungeon when they got caught. They got a lucky break when Jekyll turned out to be a weasel and went after Belle (later in the season, though), and Hook killed him, which also destroyed Hyde. Then the Storybrookers had more of a chance to defeat the more ordinary Untold Stories people who were still loyal to Hyde and win back control of the town.

[Camera One]

I'm not sure if anyone posted a count yet of our new favorite phrase.... yep, you've got it... The Final Battle.

"Mother's Little Helper" had 1 utterance of "The Final Battle" (plus 1 mention of "Final chapter")

"Awake" had a whopping 10 mentions of "The Final Battle".

"When Bluebirds Fly" had 7 mentions of "The Final Battle".

I can imagine it will only increase this Sunday.

---

For hilarity sake, let's review uses of our favorite phrase in the latest episode, so we can better incorporate it in our everyday conversations.

- What happens at the end of the book? The Savior fights the Final Battle.

- You look like you could use a friend, especially with the Final Battle approaching.

- The good new is, whatever her plan was for the Final Battle, she needs help.

- You really want to pick out centerpieces on the eve of the Final Battle?

- She has to fight in the Final Battle.  There's no escaping it.

- What I came here for... start the Final Battle.  But worry not.  You won't be around to regret your mistake much longer.

- Do we even know what the Black Fairy needs the crystals for?  To start the Final Battle, so she says.

-----

This is the line right after:

"And has she done it?  Has it started?"
"I don't know, Henry.  We'll figure it out."

So the Final Battle could have started and they might not even know it?  LOL.  Only on this show...

Edited April 29, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 so we can better incorporate it in our everyday conversations.

Excuse me, @Camera One, could you pass me the salt? I must eat what might be my last meal before the Final Battle™.

Edited April 29, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[jhlipton]

Since Europe is still active, do you think we can enlist them?  It's the "The Final Battle™!".

[Arnella]

Arnella, are you coming to my bridal shower?

Oh no, all weddings, bat mitzvahs, quinceaneras, graduations, etc. are cancelled due to "The Final Battle™".

I'm saving a ton of money...

[Souris]

Sorry, I need to stop in at Starbucks. I want to bring some Frappaccinos to The Final Battle. What would The Final Battle be without Unicorn Fraps, the Official Drink of The Final Battle?

Edited April 30, 2017 by Souris

[KingOfHearts]

CS Lewis came by asking me for a title for his latest Narnia book. I brought him some tea and told him I was brewing a special kind for the Final Battle, and then his inspiration struck!

Even if we do get a seventh season, S6 still feels like a complete waste for me. Even by S4/S5 standards. S4 had some okay moments, "amidst an ocean of darkness", and S5 did manage to hold its own special brand of gravitas. S6, though, has been bankrupt of any entertainment value. The only bright spots would be the Cinderella episode and possibly the musical, but even that is stretching things a bit.

Edited April 30, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

What differentiates Season 6 from even the depths of 3B and 4B is the lack of moments.  Forget an enjoyable arc, it is difficult to find enjoyable scenes in the entire season.  On top of that, there were further damaging retcons.  It is only now in the final 6 episodes where the plotline actually has a focus, that being "the final battle".  Of course, we have no idea what "the final battle" actually means, but this season's standards, that's already huge.  

[jhlipton]

Here, hold my beer, I'm off to fight the Final Battle.
OK, I'm back -- miss me?

[KAOS Agent]

Plot Twist: The Final Battle is already over. We missed it. 

[AudienceofOne]

33 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Plot Twist: The Final Battle is already over. We missed it. 

Super Plot Twist: The Final Battle was inside the Saviour all along. She was always only battling herself. She will win the final battle by marrying Hook and getting a house in the suburbs. It'll be super exciting television.

[Camera One]

Or super meta, the Final Battle happens as all the characters travel to Hollywood and raid the ABC offices.

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

What differentiates Season 6 from even the depths of 3B and 4B is the lack of moments.  Forget an enjoyable arc, it is difficult to find enjoyable scenes in the entire season.  On top of that, there were further damaging retcons.

One thing that I've noticed about S6 is the lack of gif-ing that's going on in the fandom. It used to be that after episodes there were several scenes that people would gif. Ship scenes obviously still get attention, but there is a significant absence of anything else. A lot of this has to do with the lack of enjoyable moments that evoke emotion from the audience. Plot, plot, plot doesn't do that. It all just blends together and there's nothing memorable enough to even want to spend time making gifs about it. I think that even if the show is still enjoyable, it's not something that sticks with you after watching. There's little to analyze or think about or even get excited about. It's just kind of there and something to watch if you're bored on a Sunday night.