A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Serena]

If I thought the writers cared about that, I would wonder if Regina will get pissed at Rumple for killing her sister.

[ShadowFacts]

 

It's sad that Zelena seemed to open to the idea of redeeming herself, only to be killed by Rumple just shortly after.

 

I am not convinced that Zelena is dead.  The dagger dispatched her mortal body but her green essence went floating through town to the barn.  Stopping at Regina's heart locker which contained the pendant which in turn contained Zelena's power.  Maybe not just the time travel spellarooni but Zelena herself left that jail cell.  In the lost year didn't she lead Neal to the key to resurrecting Rumple?  Maybe she knew how to use that on herself if the need arose. There's probably something wrong with this scenario due to my spotty memory for magic dagger details.

[FAU]

If I thought the writers cared about that, I would wonder if Regina will get pissed at Rumple for killing her sister.

 

Probably similar to how she reacted when Cora died.

[Camera One]

Their storytelling has always been influenced by LOST, but not in a good way for the most part, IMO! They repeat many of the early mistakes from LOST (example--too many new characters in S2, needless repetitive flashbacks, etc..). However the ending was received, LOST had really tight writing, and very few things slipped through the cracks. They made sure to have character moments in-between all that action. It's as if Adam and Eddy only distilled what they liked from writing for LOST, and now that they are showrunners, don't have other writers keeping them in check. With the good ratings OUAT has, it's unlikely the studio execs will interfere much at this point either. 

 

I totally agree.  The reason why I watched "Lost" was because they actually used their large diverse cast, and they were sure to give each character a lot of character moments in between the action (as least for the first 4 seasons).  The strange thing is the use of the large cast and embedding meaty character moments in each episode did happen in Season 1 of "Once Upon a Time".  Then S2 and S3 have actually felt more like the plot plot plot and the neglect of supporting characters of the last two seasons of "Lost".  I'm glad they kept "Lost"s narrative structure and they do play with time and character connections (also things I loved about "Lost"), though, but without the other two criteria, the show isn't as rich as the early seasons of "Lost".

Edited July 5, 2014 by Camera One

[Amerilla]

Then S2 and S3 have actually felt more like the plot plot plot and the neglect of supporting characters of the last two seasons of "Lost".  I'm glad they kept "Lost"s narrative structure and they do play with time and character connections (also things I loved about "Lost"), though, but without the other two criteria, the show isn't as rich as the early seasons of "Lost".

 

 

 

Yeah, to all of that.  

 

Seriously, I think the show could benefit hugely from a flash-sideways or flash-forward structure, just to mix things up a bit and give the actors some room to stretch out. 

[Camera One]

Just rewatched "The Jolly Roger", and it just struck me how well they chose the Ariel actress.  It also struck me that they can't even write an episode storyline for a protagonist without making her into an evil imposter.  Contrast this episode to the lame way in which they tried to use Tinkerbelle in the last episode "It's Not Easy Being Green".  Both these episodes tried to use a supporting character they introduced in 3A.

 

Halfway through, I was wondering... why does this episode have a good feel to it, and finally I realized why.  No Zelena!  A good ol' mystery/adventure... looking for Eric.  

 

Still, they again needed to throw in a healthy dose of "the good guys are stupid" nonetheless.  Regina creating the protection spell and literally everyone promptly leaving the apartment?  Good thing the Witch was otherwise occupied in someone else's body.  I was still (second time through) annoyed at how they made Emma master magic in a single episode.  Emma basically flipping through the elven spell book in half a second and going "Is there another way?"  Seriously?  I know book learning is not fun to watch but are we trying to build towards Emma becoming a master at magic or not?  We already KNOW she can do magic when she's panicked or in a life and death situation.  So again, this episode did nothing new with that.   

 

At the end of the episode, the friend I was watching with actually said, "Oh how nice!  They're eating dinner with the Evil Queen and she's part of their family now!"  I tried not to glare, LOL.  Seriously speaking, though, in this episode, the Regina redemption was still pretty good.  I was still kinda feeling for her and I didn't feel overwhelmed by it yet.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Just rewatched "The Jolly Roger", and it just struck me how well they chose the Ariel actress. 

 

I totally agree. I used to watch her on Reba, where she played the same kind of ditzy character. It was funny when I found her playing a similar character on Once.

[YaddaYadda]

I was watching Freaks and Geeks the other day and Johanna Garcia was on and her face has changed so little!  I always liked her, but I liked Ariel less in the Jolly Roger.  The episode wasn't a bad one, it just wasn't what I was expecting though.  I could care less about Zelena but I thought her scenes with Hook after she cursed him were good in the way he called her bluff and was actually allowed to think and refute the things she was telling him regarding Emma.  And he actually cares what happens to the Charmings.  I was super excited about this episode and it did fall a bit flat, sadly.

 

About the magic book, wasn't that written in runes?  Emma was pretty bad ass on the bridge.

[KingOfHearts]

So, I was rewatching A Curious Thing. In retrospect, the Snowing-casting-the-Curse twist was really, really dumb. The writers did some serious backflips to make it possible. They invented a whole "heart-splitting" device and "walls between the worlds" rule just to make it work. Zelena casting the curse, although predictable, would have aided the plot in ways the story desperately needed.

 

If Zelena had cast the curse...

* She would have been a more intimidating character. It would have put her close to the Evil Queen Zone.

* She was jealous of Regina casting the curse. Wouldn't she want to cast it herself to get even?
* The "caster keeps their memory" rule would have remained untouched.

* It would have given Zelena a reason why she hadn't succeeded in the Enchanted Forest. Perhaps she could have casted the dark curse because she needed Emma for her spell. Then Walsh could have pushed her to go to Storybrooke using reverse psychology, and Zelena could have been the one to give Hook the memory potion.

* She could have given fake memories to Snow about knowing her as a midwife in the Enchanted Forest. Snow's gullibility would have had a logical reason.

* Zelena would have needed the thing she loved most. She could have loved Glinda as a sister and friend and used her instead of just banishing her, or even her father could have sufficed. It wouldn't take much to write something like that in.

 

The writers tend to write in their big reveals and twists, then plan later. They'll bend over backwards and create plot holes just to get their twists in there.

Edited July 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

And wouldn't it be hilarious if she realized once getting to Storybrooke that she didn't have magic?  That would have leveled the playing field a lot and preserved the S1 pattern of magic in the Enchanted forest flashbacks with real-world approaches to mystery solving in present-day.

[Shanna Marie]

After rewatching season one, I have to agree with whoever said (in whichever thread) that if they were going to name Baby Snowflake after a hero who had saved them, he should have been named Graham. I'm no massive Graham fan (and the actor was weak enough that 50 Shades of Grey may be the comedy hit of the year), but there would have been no Baby Snowflake if not for him because he spared Snow White's life, essentially sacrificing himself in exchange, and he helped Charming escape from Regina's dungeon right before he was to have been executed. I think that's a bit more than getting his fool self killed while handing an immensely powerful being over to the enemy and then sending a message or two.

 

Also, I really wish they'd waited a while before sending Emma and Mary Margaret to the Enchanted Forest and let them be part of that initial readjustment period. I kind of liked the parts where Regina was actually afraid of what the people might do to her. They could have had a lot of fun with that whole phase of the storybook characters in our world and getting used to those dual identities. Just imagine the present-day stories and fairybacks they could have done related to reunions. What about the people who were married to the wrong spouses -- how did they work that out? It's one thing when they both had real spouses to go back to, but what if one of the people was single in their real identity and really fell in love with the fake spouse? And parents with the wrong children? Did they all just switch back without a second thought, or did they have to negotiate new family arrangements?

[Camera One]

I just rewatched "Bleeding Through", "A Curious Thing" and "Kansas".  At least there's a bit of momentum through these three episodes, albeit they were Very Special Regina episodes.  

 

On rewatch, what was up with the misdirect at the end of "Kansas" when Regina looked all sinister putting Zelena's pendant into the vault complete with evil theme music in the background?

Edited July 7, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

I think more tone-deafness from the writers. Adam and Eddie said in an interview that that was supposed to be a nice moment, because Regina's always wanted to win (eyeroll), and on that day she got to win.

 

...apparently they forgot to tell literally everyone else involved with that scene, from Lana P to the director all the way up to the music people.

[Shanna Marie]

Adding to my list of things that may not have come out quite the way they intended:

It might not have been the best idea to juxtapose Rumple's relationship history with the desperate measures Belle's father was willing to take to keep her away from Rumple. I know we're supposed to see Mo as horrible (and they had to do that to make Rumple look more reasonable in comparison), but when we're seeing that his wife told him why she was unhappy and offered a suggestion of what they could do to work things out, and his response was essentially "Keep trying harder to do it my way because I'm not going to change anything," and then we saw him murder his wife for leaving him, Mo's actions don't seem all that unreasonable, especially since the last time we saw him, Rumple was beating him nearly to death, and we know that Rumple didn't tell her that her father was looking for her. Okay, the memory wipe thing was too much, but she looks like an idiot for not even being willing to listen to the warnings about Rumple when we're meanwhile watching him coldbloodedly murder his wife.

 

I'm starting to wonder if someone put a memory curse on the writers sometime during the second season because they seemed to be setting up some really good stuff up to that point, and then forgot it entirely. Regina had her big "OMG, I've turned into my mother!" epiphany that led to her letting Henry go -- and yet she ended up teaming up with her mother in trying to kill everyone just a little while later. She was packing to move out of the mayor's office, and yet she's still mayor later on. Snow and Emma had that wonderful scene in the ruined nursery -- and then that relationship went off on all kinds of wacky paths that disregarded entirely what happened there. Snow was okay with being called "Snow" wherever she was once the curse broke, so where did that "here, I'm Mary Margaret" thing come from? And she was a total badass, not meek at all.

 

And then there's other stuff like Belle's "give me a call when you decide to be good" stance turning into "I love you even when you're evil because you have the potential to be good."

[Amerilla]

I'm starting to wonder if someone put a memory curse on the writers sometime during the second season because they seemed to be setting up some really good stuff up to that point, and then forgot it entirely.

 

 

Yeah, I was thinking that same thing. S2 was weak in general, but in my recollection, it started to crater right after The Miller's Daughter. They dropped set-ups, they had characters suddenly shift this way or that with no good foundation, they started getting more and more continuity errors. And it all got far worse in S3.

 

I wonder how much it had to do with OUATIW? If you figure they were doing pre-production on that in the winter of 2012-2013 and getting casting and early scripts ready for filming by spring 2013, that was all going on while they were writing and filming post-winter-hiatus episodes of OUAT. A&E are suddenly running two shows, and they don't seem like the type of guys who can easily multitask. Some of their writers and producers went over to the Wonderland side. I think not having Jane Espenson quite as hand's on as OUAT consulting producer and writer did a lot of damage.  

 

The problem is, once the Titanic starts to drift, good luck getting it back on course.

[Camera One]

A&E are suddenly running two shows, and they don't seem like the type of guys who can easily multitask.

 

I agree about that.  Though I would expect the major beats of the story would have been plotted out before Season 2 began production, or at least by Christmas.  I can definitely see running two shows affecting the day-to-day quality of the show in terms of continuity or dialogue, but I think Adam and Eddy would already have decided on the general idea of Tamara and Owen kidnapping Henry and Regina saving everyone, pretty early on, and that would already have pre-determined approximately when Cora would be killed off.  And if they don't plot out the season beats ahead of time, then it explains even more why their writing is a mess when you look at the bigger picture.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I was thinking that same thing. S2 was weak in general, but in my recollection, it started to crater right after The Miller's Daughter. They dropped set-ups, they had characters suddenly shift this way or that with no good foundation, they started getting more and more continuity errors.

Don't forget that they've said in interviews that they re-tooled some of the back half of S2 once they found out they could go to Neverland. That's got to be part of it.

[Camera One]

I've already written about their whole Neverland excuse above, but it will never cease to amaze me how they actually took the time in the back half of S2 to waste precious episode time creating new dummy plotlines like Lacey and Owen with a side of village massacring aka shooting yourself in the foot.  Plus they had one final episode with Eion Bailey, and they chose to do "Selfish, Annoying and Dumb Waste of Space: The Tamara Story".  You really have to work at it to create such a mess-terpiece.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

It's a real shame that they completely squandered the Owen/anti-magic storyline because it had some valid points to bring up. What are the implications of introducing magic to a World Without Magic? Does this pose some kind of threat to the rest of the world? Are there people in our world who have a latent talent for magic that can now be used? Owen could have been a complex antagonist. Really, his situation was similar to Hook's in that he had a legitimate gripe against a main character who is sometimes a villain, so when you look at the situation objectively, he's the victim. It's just his methods and actions that are questionable. He was a person from our world who got caught up in the curse and had his life ruined by it just as much as any of the Enchanted Forest folk did. He would have good reason to hate magic, but he would also be a very redeemable "villain" if he could be made to see that there's light magic and dark magic, and Regina isn't the best representative of the magical world. It totally sucked that they turned him into a villain who had to be killed when he was just a kid Regina tried to kidnap and bend to her will and who was left utterly alone in the world when he refused to give in to her and she killed his father.

 

Tying Pan to that storyline made no sense whatsoever.

[FAU]

I've already written about their whole Neverland excuse above, but it will never cease to amaze me how they actually took the time in the back half of S2 to waste precious episode time creating new dummy plotlines like Lacey and Owen with a side of village massacring aka shooting yourself in the foot.  Plus they had one final episode with Eion Bailey, and they chose to do "Selfish, Annoying and Dumb Waste of Space: The Tamara Story".  You really have to work at it to create such a mess-terpiece.

 

Boy was it ever, they made an even bigger mess out of August's character after having him sputter off while the main characters did their own thing and then we got ridiculous Tamara nonsense.

[Shanna Marie]

I mentioned this in the relationships thread, but I'm really surprised by how much I'm enjoying the first part of season 2, when I don't remember liking it much when it aired. Maybe it's because I can now watch it for what it is instead of being frustrated by what I didn't get to see. David got to be an actual person, with his own relationships, issues and storylines instead of just being Prince Charming. I liked seeing him taking on the role of sheriff and essentially running the town (we saw Regina moving out of the mayor's office, but did we ever learn who took over?). Snow was being a badass on her own turf, and I liked the relationship she had with Emma. Emma was actually allowed to say that all the bad stuff happening to them was really Regina's fault. Regina was showing signs of self-awareness and recognized that she'd harmed people, and Henry was allowed to see just how bad she was, even if he was getting to know her changed self. You got the sense that they'd never have a normal mother/son relationship because of all that had happened between them, but that they were building something new from the ashes of all that had happened before. I like the buildup of Cora as the big bad they were all going to have to team up to fight. I love Hook as a secondary antagonist because you can never be entirely sure where he stands -- and I'm not sure even he knows entirely where he stands other than wanting to kill Rumple.

 

Of course, it all goes straight to hell after that point when everyone gets a Regina lobotomy and Regina gets a Cora lobotomy and they bring in all that Home Office stuff.

 

One thing they really missed out on, though, was giving us the backstory of what ended up happening to George. I'm not sure why in that episode they did a Red backstory that didn't tell us much of anything new about her when the whole point of the present-day plot was that it wasn't about her at all but was about George trying to get back at David. For that to work, we needed to see what went down with them before. Also, someone in the mob remarked that "we aren't sheep," so does that mean that David's true origins were public knowledge by that point? How did that play out in the past, when people found out that the prince who'd ousted the king was actually a shepherd, not the king's son? That seems to be a lot more critical to the plot than Red learning to embrace her inner wolf while remaining human when it turned out that in the present she hadn't actually lost control or done any harm. They could have touched on those points through Red's role in David's campaign against George, since the critical point about Ruby in the present story was David's faith in her.

[Camera One]

One thing they really missed out on, though, was giving us the backstory of what ended up happening to George. I'm not sure why in that episode they did a Red backstory that didn't tell us much of anything new about her when the whole point of the present-day plot was that it wasn't about her at all but was about George trying to get back at David.

 

As much as I like Red, I agree that should have been a David centric to flesh out his backstory and to show how David adjusted to becoming ruler next to Snow (which would parallel his attempts to establish order in Storybrooke).  They could have used George as a villain for 2A and developed more of how the town reacted to the power vacuum, of people in the town loyal to Snow/Charming vs. those following George (riling people up against the Charmings) vs. those still clinging to Regina (nobody).  No magic.  Then, they could delay the Princess Plot to Jan-Mar, and in the fall, they could have done justice to the family dynamics, as Emma, Charming and Snow learned to work together to become the leaders of Storybrooke.  

Edited July 10, 2014 by Camera One

[Mari]

It's a real shame that they completely squandered the Owen/anti-magic storyline because it had some valid points to bring up. , , ,

 

Tying Pan to that storyline made no sense whatsoever.

No, no it did not make sense, and it wasted a perfectly good opportunity for a completely different type of conflict.  However, I've wondered if they've the left the details foggy enough that they could go back at some point.  Yes, Pan and the Darlings claimed responsibility for Home Office, but a lot of the details were pretty handwavey. 

 

Having Pan and the Darlings' Home Office end up being an actual thing they ended up--even inadvertently--starting could be interesting.

[Camera One]

Unless there's a retcon on the tree, I don't quite buy it, simply because it was the "Regrets" tree, not the "Tree of Stuff Everybody Can Tell By Looking At You" or "Tree of Stuff You're Willing to Share with Others".

 

Other possibilities? Maybe she's only able to feel bad about something she's done when she's directly experiencing the consequences.  She's only feeling bad while she's being caught?    Or maybe at some point after that, she basically said "Screw it.  I don't care."

 

It's problematic writing.  A couple of times now they've thrown away sensible, reasonable character development for POWER! moments that really damaged Regina's characterization.

 

And there are things that you can shake your head at and think "Character fluke."  But how do you "character fluke" the No Regrets thing?

 

They should have addressed this in "Bleeding Through".  It would have taken a simple question from Snow, "So, do you really have no regrets?"

 

I rewatched this episode last week with my friend who was catching up so I'll log my thoughts here while on the topic.  

 

I really hated that for every semi-nice apology that Regina gave, the writers forced Mary Margaret to apologize too.  The episode was so stilted towards Regina being wronged that it literally made me angry.  For example, Snow saying, "I'm sorry for what I did to your mother", and Regina clarifies with "murdered".  Having that once in the episode would be one thing, but the writers had already given Regina that crack where she pointedly said to bring Cora's spirit back, they needed both the murder weapon and the murderer.  I know Jane Espenson is supposed to be such a positive for the show, but she co-wrote this episode and must take some of the blame for the repetitiveness of "balancing" Regina and Snow as if their crimes were equal.  When Regina referred to Snow as murderer, Charming and Emma both looked like they had indigestion and neither spoke up to defend Snow.  

 

And then the biggest step for Regina saying near the end that maybe if she had known more, she *might* not have tried to go after Snow.  That wasn't even a real apology... and it was still countered with forcing Snow to say, "I was such a brat."   So being a brat gives someone the right to repeatedly try to murder you and all your loved ones?

 

Meanwhile, the flashbacks were practically designed to show that Cora was wronged, first by the gardener, and then by Leopold and the petty Ava.  Yes, they did include that Cora was being deceptive and selfish, but it was still from her POV and it was more than sympathetic.  The writers then chose to have Emma say, "I thought we were the good guys" and the Charmings now having to take on the mantle of being the root cause of Cora abandoning Zelena.  I wanted to hit my head against the wall.  Could they possibly stack the cards even more?

 

I found the whole message and rewritten history of this episode offensive.  But the actresses did a great job with it, and it was reasonably engaging and the mood was nicely set.  That's the dichotomy with this show... totally love/hate.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Camera One

[Mari]

Espenson helped write that episode?  I don't always notice who wrote the episodes.  That's so . . . depressing.  The stuff of hers I've noticed over the years I've usually liked.

 

I loathed that episode.  Absolutely loathed it.  From Rose McGowan's acting (which had been fine her previous episode but was bizarre this one) to the Cora the Victim storyline (Really?  Victim?  Really?  Her response to being taken in by a conman is to con someone else and abandon her child to die at the side of the road, and we're supposed to think Eva victimized her?  Really?) to Snow's continual apologies (for trying to save the lives of herself, her loved ones, and her town) that Regina condescended to almost accept. 

 

There might've been some really good moments in the episode, but I was too rage-filled to really absorb them.

 

Not even Regina's dress could save it.  And I loved that dress.

[Souris]

Yeah, I would say that "Bleeding Through" was definitely my least favorite ep of the season. I hated what they did with Ava, it made Leopold look super-skeevy that he married the daughter of the woman he almost married, and Snow saying she was a brat like it somehow absolved Regina of guilt for what all she did was rage-worthy.

[Camera One]

it made Leopold look super-skeevy that he married the daughter of the woman he almost married

 

And to cap it off, on social media, Adam claimed more than once that if you watch "The Stable Boy" really closely, you can tell they had this planned all along.  Yeah, whatever...

Edited July 11, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Not to mention the very weak seance storyline. It was about as corny as you can get. No wonder it was a new ratings low for the series.

[Camera One]

Watching back-to-back is weird, since there was Regina "winning" over Zelena at the end of "It's Not Easy Being Green", who didn't get her heart.  Then "Bleeding Through" started with Zelena distracting Regina while Rumple went to steal the heart from Robin Hood.  So I guess Zelena was watching after all... they never explained how she knew. 

 

"The Jolly Roger" is in between but it sticks out more back-to-back than when they are watched over three weeks.  I suppose "The Jolly Roger"  was a day of "rest" in between "It's Not Easy Being Green" and "Bleeding Through", with the calm crib building and long walks on the beach.

 

"Bleeding Through" and "A Curious Thing" are both structured the same way.  Some random new idea arises and they pursue it.  

 

The setup for "Bleeding Through" is really weak, since Regina figured out from Zelena's taunting that Zelena's plans have something to do with the past, so she went to Gold's shop to get the candle so she could resurrect Cora and ask her why she gave up Zelena...  I guess that's the really convoluted type of deductive reasoning.  And then Belle conveniently figured out from her books what spell Zelena was casting, while Zelena confirmed it with the audience by monologuing her plan to Rumple.

 

In "A Curious Thing", they gave Snow the "bright" idea that if they got their memories back, maybe they already know how to defeat Zelena and when Emma pointed out that kissing Henry doesn't work, Regina had the idea that Henry needs to remember too, so they went book searching.  Convenient this light bulb moment didn't come earlier.  And they're lucky they actually did know how to defeat Zelena.  Too bad Belle didn't have a book in her Library of Contrivance which described the Witches of Oz and their powerful pendants...

Edited July 11, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

The whole string of episodes from "Bleeding Through" to "Kansas" is generally rage inducing for me. The writers said that they wanted to build Regina up so she was on top of the world and then kick it all out from under her so she loses everything. Which okay, that would be fine if they didn't choose to build Regina up by tearing down numerous other characters. From continuing to allow Regina her victim blaming ways and having those victims explicitly agree that perhaps they were partially to blame for her murderous rampage to removing Emma's magic to having her love interest entirely dismiss her evil ways (bold and audacious, yes, but not evil), the show completely went off the rails morally in its quest to pretty much deify Regina. What enrages me further is that they think the idea that Emma not allowing Regina to murder her boyfriend's wife and bringing Marian into the future is completely destroying her. I mean, she's got Henry who is her true love and either totally forgot her previous abuse of him or just doesn't care anymore, most of the town is accepting of her presence and no one seems to be demanding justice for past atrocities, she's got a great house, a job that gives her power over the whole town and she can apparently access the ultimate power in white magic, but bring back the wife of her boyfriend of a few days and Regina is suddenly completely and utterly devastated and has, in the words of Eddy Kitsis, had her "life crushed". What the fuck, writers? 

 

Oh and the showrunners also explicitly stated that Emma crushed Regina's life "just like her mom did". Regina's delusion is apparently that of the writers as well. What are they smoking? It's clear from their comments that the writers think Regina is justified in her victim blaming rather than considering anything where the villains display a shred of self-awareness and examine how their own poor life choices resulted in their unhappiness. Nope, Emma is a life crushing bitch just like her mother and it's so great that Regina didn't rip out her heart right on the spot. 

[MaiLuna]

I'm scared about the writers' own moral compasses if they think it's ok to become a serial killer just because a "brat" was manipulated into telling a secret. Also, saving a man from a con marriage makes you one of the bad guys and saving a woman's life from her murderer it's a horrible thing to do to said murderer.

[YaddaYadda]

Emma is a life crushing bitch just like her mother and it's so great that Regina didn't rip out her heart right on the spot.

 

I'd like to see her try because that might actually shock everyone who isn't a Regina apologist back into reality.  Then again no one seems to be fazed by the whole Snow White being burned at the stake.  The only reason I'm not really giving a rat's ass about that part is because it happened in the past and they believe that she actually changed and because thinking about it gives me headaches and I'm not a fan of my headaches.  I'm all for people getting second chances, but I'm also all about them not squandering the chance they are given. 

 

I guess it will be interesting to see if Regina follows Hook's path or Rumple's.  Hook tried to revert to his old self during the missing year but couldn't and Rumple is pretty much still his old self minus the manic giggles and the get ups.  He tries to be good, but I think he'd rather be bad.  Where does Regina fall in this spectrum.

 

I think she would be so interesting to see, see how she struggles and deals with her issues if the writing wasn't so slanted towards her.

[RadioGirl27]

"Bleeding through" is, for me, the worst episode of season 3. When I watched it with my mom, she was amazed that someone could think that what Ava did was bad. The morals on this show are sometimes really wrong.

[Amerilla]

The screwy morals I can handle. What I hate is when they show us a story and have the characters tell us that we're supposed to interpret it in a completely different way, unsupported by the story you just told us.

 

If you want us to accept that Ava is the bad guy in the Cora/Zelena story, there are infinite different ways to write that story so Ava comes off as the bad guy. What they showed us was Ava being honest and sensible (if a tetch bitchy and self-righteous), and then having MM tell us, basically: no, no, her sainted mother had actually done something horrible. 

 

The classic example, for me, was Cora's dying line to Regina that "you would have been enough," when they'd just spent a dozen episodes showing us that, no, Regina never would have been enough. And now they showed us a story where Zelena was even less enough, making Zels look even dimmer for going to this extreme for to alter time to get back to someone who tossed her away like a chewed-up apple core. But our takeaway is supposed to sort of, kind of look at Cora as a victim?

 

It's very confusing. 

[Serena]

Basically, Leopold's feelings don't matter. The right thing to do would have been let him be victimized by Cora, made to believe another man's child was his, and that a woman who didn't care for him really loved him. 

It's actually really in line with every other storyline in the show. If you don't let yourself be victimized and fight back against someone who's trying to hurt you, then you're a terrible person and if you get murdered because of it, you got what was coming to you.

[Rumsy4]

I do think Leopold could have made sure Cora had something to live on once she had the baby--that action would have seemed more in-line with the benevolent ruler they were painting him as when he was older. However, in reality, Cora was lucky to have escaped without a prison sentence. Eva getting blamed is beyond ridiculous. No one forced Cora to dump her newborn in the middle of the woods. The fact that even Emma buys into that warped logic is beyond disgusting to me. Why are the villains never supposed to be held accountable for any of their actions? Emma is starting to sound too much like Snow these days--I hope she doesn't start kissing Regina's ass as well. I too was disappointed to find that Jane Espenson had written that episode, but at the end of the day, she is following the creators' vision, and A&E do the final tweaking of scripts.

 

Adam and Eddy are poor writers. In their desperation to be subversive, and try to prove that anyone can be good or evil, they have lost sight of logic. There were so many ways in which they could have taken this storyline to prove their point. They could have made Eva plant false evidence on Cora for instance. But A&E hold the "good" guys to ridiculous and strange standards, while assuming that giving a villain a backstory for turning evil, however shoddily written, means that they are not ever to be held accountable for their deeds, and are actually poor misunderstood creatures. 

[Camera One]

I wish we knew what the writers originally had planned for 2b before Colin broke his leg. I think it would be fascinating to know. 2a seemed to go so well, I can only assume switching currents mid sail must have thrown them off course.

 

I wish someone would ask Adam and Eddy about the original plan for 2B, if

- Colin had not broken his leg

- they had not gotten the rights to Neverland

 

Exactly how would it have been different?  Or can they not say because at that point, they hadn't really set anything in stone in terms of planning, so they can't say what they would have done? (I'm guessing it's the latter)

 

Would there still have been Owen/Tamara?  Was there any plan to give Neal a storyline?  I mean, at the end of the day, the season finale would still presumably have had Hook make the "big" decision to turn back instead of saving himself.  And they likely needed someone from Regina's past to come back and "zap" some comeuppance into her, so she could make the big sacrifice at the end of S2 (which I would bet was planned and one of the things they "really wanted to do").  

 

So honestly, I'm not sure very much would have changed and/or the changes wouldn't have made 2B any better.

 

For example, they have said their original plan/timing for Emma believing in Season 1 was different, but I haven't heard any details about what exactly they would have done.  

I forgot to point out that when Regina was tortured with electricity, I think that was meant as a sort of punishment for Regina and her evil deeds.  But notice they also had Snow mind-melded to Regina, so Snow would also suffer pain.  Because Snow murdered Cora and needed to be punished as well.  

Edited July 11, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I totally forgot about the awful mind-meld thing! And after all that, we got to see Regina smile when she'd heard that Greg and Tamara had died in Neverland. Great character growth! Regina always wins.

[stealinghome]

Right??? That's one of the things that annoys me to death about the tale Adam and Eddie have spun for themselves: they claim that Regina never wins, but I look at the show and as far as I can see, Regina always wins. Seriously--when has she not won????

[KingOfHearts]

 

And after all that, we got to see Regina smile when she'd heard that Greg and Tamara had died in Neverland.

 

I was smiling too, lol! Good riddance to those two.

 

In alternate 2B, I would have believed Cora coercing Regina into getting the failsafe so she, Regina and Henry could go to the Enchanted Forest. That would pit Cora in Greg/Tamara's place, and have Regina, after realizing the truth, defeat her mother after the failsafe is activated. Then we could do the Going Home ending, with everyone else going to the Enchanted Forest via beans while Emma and Henry stay behind.

[YaddaYadda]

Right??? That's one of the things that annoys me to death about the tale Adam and Eddie have spun for themselves: they claim that Regina never wins, but I look at the show and as far as I can see, Regina always wins. Seriously--when has she not won????

Well there was that week, I think it was the week of never but I can't be sure.

 

I wish they had kept Zelena so that she could keep knocking Regina on her butt over and over.  Seeing as Zelena was actually a hell of a lot more powerful than Regina, Regina being picked on by someone like that might've done her some good. 

[Camera One]

I'm surprised they didn't build an entire episode around how Owen's dad died in a tragic way which was partially caused by Regina but she repented in the last minute but it was too late to save him, so she tearfully buried him at the campsite.  The "What happened to Owen's dad?" mystery basically turned out to be nothing.  I really don't get that subplot at all.  Were we supposed to feel sorry for Owen?  It is impossible to, given we know nothing about the mindset of the adult version, who was smarmy, annoying, untrustworthy, stupid, unethical, heartless, and really bland, all at the same time (wow, what an accomplishment).  Were we supposed to be shipping Owen/Tamara?  

[KingOfHearts]

Did we even really need Greg and Tamara? The only thing they really accomplished was bringing Henry to Neverland. The Hipster Darlings could have done that much. Greg/Tamara didn't really add anything to the story in the long run. The Welcome to Storybrooke flashback was unnecessary, Tamara being Neal's fiance was just love triangle crap that went nowhere, and August's flashbacks could have gone a million other ways. Their involvement with flashbacks and Pan smelled like retcon to me.

Edited July 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I agree it was all unnecessary, but I don't think it can be considered retcon since that's when the writers go back and change the story.  In this case, the writers actually wrote this story.

 

I definitely agree that Greg and Tamara were not necessary and didn't add anything, but I think the writers included them for a few reasons:

- subplot with the "mystery" of Tamara... that actually dragged out for a few episodes

- the "surprise" factor of Tamara being in August's past

- Emma/Neal/Tamara triangle

- "answering" the question of what Storybrooke was like when the Curse first brought them there (A&E wanted to answer that since there had been so many questions about it)

- giving a "reason" for why Regina adopted Henry

- "punishing" Regina with the electrical torture to transition back to her trying to redeem herself 

- setting up Hook's redemption of sailing back 

 

The dumbest part for me is that Greg and Tamara were not working towards kidnapping Henry at all.  That just came out of nowhere in the season finale.  Why didn't Peter Pan just send the Shadow to kidnap Henry?  As someone mentioned before, Henry would have willingly gone with that thing.  Why didn't Greg and Tamara just kidnap Henry earlier?  It was another case of villains spinning their wheels doing practically nothing for 6-7 episodes.

[kili]

Did we even really need Greg and Tamara?

 

I think Greg and Tamara were always going to be there regardless of Neverland.

 

I suspect that they felt the need to explain why Regina decided to adopt Henry and to introduce some of the outside world. Hence Owen and his father.

 

There was no way they weren't going to complicate Neal and Emma getting back together. Since they didn't have a love interest for Emma, it was going to have to be Neal and she was likely going to come from our world. Adam and Eddie like their triangles. They can't have an innocent clueless person in a battle with Emma over Neal, so they had to make her evil.

 

If they knew about Neverland sooner, maybe we could have gotten something better. Instead of the Darling HIpsters, Pan could have held Michael and John hostage and had Wendy (or Wendy and one of her brothers) out there scouting for the truest believer. Neal and a Hipster-aged Wendy would have been a very believable story and her motivations woul dhave made sense. Plus, the actor and actress had some good chemistry (the actress was actually much older). Then, we wouldn't have had the squicky fact that Pan kept the only girl on the island in a cage for 100 years. A little teddy holding boy would have been able to convince Henry to save him too.

[stealinghome]

I suspect they originally intended to spin The Home Office off into its own legitimate magic vs. science storyline, one totally separate from Pan, and use Tamara and Greg as a gateway to doing so. But then when Tamara and Owen were despised by 99.9% of the fanbase, A&E decided (or were forced) to just cut their losses and drop that storyline all together.

 

There was way too much in Season 2 that was about magic vs. science--basically Whale's entire season story comes to mind--for me to believe that they didn't want to go there (especially since that was apparently a big theme on Lost?).

[FurryFury]

Since they didn't have a love interest for Emma, it was going to have to be Neal

 

Come on, Hook was obviously a love interest ever since "Tallahassee".

 

The worst thing with Greg/Tamara, it was a good idea, in its heart - real world fighting against magic, hell, you could build an entire show around this idea - but it was executed in such a hamfisted way, it's guaranteed to never be revisited again. And Owen himself could have a really interesting perspective/relationship with Regina, but of course he was made a villain, not her. Ugh.

 

Plus, the actor and actress had some good chemistry (the actress was actually much older).

 

Not much older. She was 19, I believe, so way too young to be a love interest for anyone except maybe Pan, were he not Malcolm.

[Camera One]

Yeah, me too. Especially the stuff with Ruby/Red, they've locked her into contract for a reason, and I think somebody actually said they've sidelined her because of Neverland.

 

I remember hearing/reading that as well.  I also wonder what Adam and Eddy's original plan for Red was.  It looked like they might have done Red/Whale from what we saw in "In the Name of the Brother", though one could argue they were already hardly using Red except for that episode and "Child of the Moon".

 

 

 

I suspect they originally intended to spin The Home Office off into its own legitimate magic vs. science storyline, one totally separate from Pan, and use Tamara and Greg as a gateway to doing so. But then when Tamara and Owen were despised by 99.9% of the fanbase, A&E decided (or were forced) to just cut their losses and drop that storyline all together.

 

 

That could have occurred, especially since the early Owen stuff really didn't gel with the mission to kidnap Henry.  Though at the same time, it's also consistent with A&E's way of thinking (one group being manipulated by a higher group/higher power with another agenda).  If they were going to do more with Dr. Whale and Science vs. Magic, you'd think they would have done more with Whale's character.  They didn't sign him on as series regular (not that it's necessary for a major role in the storyline but it would have indicated some of their intentions).  So it would have been a bit out-of-nowhere, if he had suddenly allied with Greg and Tamara and a human mob marching into Storybrooke.  And none of that science vs. magic stuff meshes with the Cora storyline at all.  Whale is another case of complete misuse of a good actor.  He was such a distinctive character on "Alias" and a "big deal", and on this show, he has the role of a glorified extra.  

 

Another question I have in terms of Adam and Eddy's original plans are:

- What were they going to do with August, if the actor had agreed to become a regular in S2?

- What were they going to do with Jefferson, if the actor had agreed to become a regular in S2?

 

Either of those additions could have completely changed the use of Captain Hook on the show.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

If they were going to do more with Dr. Whale and Science vs. Magic, you'd think they would have done more with Whale's character.... So it would have been a bit out-of-nowhere, if he had suddenly allied with Greg and Tamara and a human mob marching into Storybrooke.

But I remember feeling like 2A was super Whale-heavy. I fully admit that I don't really get the Whale/Anders appeal, so maybe I'm oversensitive, but I definitely thought that 2A was positioning Whale to have a bigger role in 2B (I also remember feeling like they were definitely headed for Frankenwhale).

 

I didn't necessarily mean that Whale would side with Greg and Tamara--simply that his arc was all about science vs magic, which suggests to me that it was a theme A&D definitely wanted to explore at greater length.

 

And none of that science vs. magic stuff meshes with the Cora storyline at all.

They could've had it on the backburner for S3. Honestly, I think the science vs magic stuff probably deserved a full season of its own.

[FurryFury]

- What were they going to do with August, if the actor had agreed to become a regular in S2?

- What were they going to do with Jefferson, if the actor had agreed to become a regular in S2?

 

I think they would have backed away from trying to make August/Emma happen, because of no romantic chemistry and no fan response, and I wouldn't be that shocked if they'd eventually kill him the way they did Neal, too. However, they may have modified August's role in the Neal/Emma backstory to make him less of a bad guy.

 

And I'm almost sure they would have made Jefferson Emma's love interest, because of the off-the-charts (imo) chemistry, the actors dating (then) and the general fan response. And even without that, he had so much potential just because of his connections to Regina, Rumple, Emma, Cora, etc, plus the Grace story... Yeah, I'm still bitter Stan didn't want to be on TV, although I can understand him.

 

But I remember feeling like 2A was super Whale-heavy. I fully admit that I don't really get the Whale/Anders appeal, so maybe I'm oversensitive, but I definitely thought that 2A was positioning Whale to have a bigger role in 2B (I also remember feeling like they were definitely headed for Frankenwhale).

 

I didn't think 2A was Whale-heavy. It was just one episode, and Whale/Red was just testing the waters, nothing major (I thought it was cute, though). Although I do love David Anders, so I may be biased a bit. Let's hope his new show will be successful.

Edited July 11, 2014 by FurryFury