A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[Camera One]

They didn't have time/interest to give him an investigative plot, though that could actually have been funny comic relief if everyone was hiding stuff from him.  Though they haven't known how to use the Henry character since his heyday in Season 1.  And now as usual, they have him as Regina cheerleader on Operation Groan.   I actually like Henry, and I have been so disappointed in the stuff he has been given, though I understand that most viewers want less of him, not more.  But I am still agog that they wrote the scene for him telling Gold to erase all his memories except the New York one.  They really don't have a handle on him at all.

[RadioGirl27]

If anything, the problem is every episode is based on "twists".  I agree that many of the twists lately have been lame, but having twists still seems to be the main goal, above character development or even organic plot development.

 

Ep 1

- Elsa and Anna's parents had a big secret!

- Anna is missing!

- Gold finds Mickey Mouse's hat!

 

Ep 2

- Kristoff knew David!

- Bo Peep is evil!

- Anna was the one who taught David how to sword fight!

- The Snow Queen was in Storybrooke all this time!

 

Ep 3

- The Snow Queen was in the urn!

- The Snow Queen was Elsa's aunt!

- Snow Queen knew Emma!

- Gold knew the Snow Queen!

 

I suspect they start with these and then just pad the episodes out from there with stuff for shippers, a dash of Woegina and then a bit of the time filler afterthought characters like Snow.

This is one of my biggest complaints with the writting of this show. And it's been going on since season 1, but every week it's more and more obvious. If they need to rewrite the previous episode to adapt it to the twist they have in mind, they do it; if they have to change the complete mythology of the show to include their new twist, they do it. That's frustrating and an exemple of bad writting.

And then this twist obsession, twists though that aren't much surprising and seldom innovative (but maybe I don't find that because I know many different version of most tales and not just the Disney version). The characters get no time to breath to develop in the here and now, at best we get some twisted past development. But sometimes having a past is not enough.

Yeah, I should have added that those twists are not very good either.

Edited October 19, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[myril]

All that stuff is pretty tame compared to the original source material. Fairy tales are gruesome, full of killing and maiming and then quickly forgiving and forgetting

This show is a fairy tale so it's pretty much expected.

 

Fairy tales were (and are) told sometimes more gruesome than what is on the show, what Disney showed, what most children's books tell, agree on that. Even the Grimm Brothers changed their versions and tuned things down a bit, reacting to critics saying, their stories were not suitable for children (go figure!). The first edition was not meant to be a book to read to or by children, it was more an academic collection for study, but as such it was not popular. Grimm's Fairy tales became popular with the so called "Kleine Ausgabe" (small edition), a compilation of 50 tales particular tailored for children. I still don't know when the idea came up, that fairy tales are something for kids and not so much for adults.

 

But there was no quick forgiving and forgetting in fairy tales, not even in the versions tailored for children, or particular not in those: The evil guys simply were punished, killed and got no happy endings. Snow White's stepmother (in first drafts it was her mother) is friendly invited to the wedding of Snow White with her Prince Charming and there forced to dance in glowing-hot iron shoes until she dropped dead. The wolf in Red Riding Hood is killed, Rumplestiltskin tore himself in two (though in the first Grimm version he ran away). Meanwhile no one was bothered, if  the princess not always had a say in getting married to the hero of the story to mark his happy ending,  no good, decent girl would say no to a formidable heroic rich guy, or it was unimaginable any would.

 

So in this I disagree: In fairy tale logic there is no all hold hands at the end of day to be expected, there would be happy ending for the good guys, punishment, death, at least loss and unhappiness for the evil ones. Fairy tales simplify characters maybe a bit, it is mostly very foreseeable, who get's the good end, and the evil guys seldom get much background at all, they're mostly evil by job title and/or nature (evil witch, evil queen, black fairy, wolfs, snakes, crows, beasts of any ugly or scary kind unless cursed prince), but it's never a peaceful we are all family and win-win feeling in the end, the good win, the bad lose.

 

The bad end is pretty much what Regina thinks she is getting (she wasn't forced to wear fiery iron shoes and dance until death though nor struck be lightning), so she wants to make the writer(s) change the rules of the storybook now.

 

I actually like Henry, and I have been so disappointed in the stuff he has been given, though I understand that most viewers want less of him, not more.  But I am still agog that they wrote the scene for him telling Gold to erase all his memories except the New York one.  They really don't have a handle on him at all.

 

Season 1  Henry was as kid okay, but now as teenager he gets close to become as sympathetic as Wesley Crusher, might not have his brain and intellect, but was declared the truest believer (fairy tale Wunderkind), though still not much more than a prop for his mothers.

 

Do they have a handle on any of the characters? I am at a point where I am considering if I should be somewhat glad, that characters like Red and Mulan are pretty much off the show, because they don't get a chance to ruin these characters for me. How sad is that. I am mostly still watching this show not for the writing but for the performance, I find the stories since somewhere in season 2 neither that compelling anymore nor that well written, but the cast is still mostly a joy to watch, they do their best to keep these IMO mostly flatly written characters miraculously somehow interesting.

 

And then this twist obsession, twists though that aren't much surprising and seldom innovative (but maybe I don't find that because I know many different version of most tales and not just the Disney version). The characters get no time to breath to develop in the here and now, at best we get some twisted past development. But sometimes having a past is not enough.

 

It's perhaps only fun when watching it as mindless fun. Any attempts to find meaningful and deeper going character development likely will lead to the loony bin. Is anyone offering a hotline for tv show fans driven crazy by a shows writing? (And now I am picturing a webseries with Archie or M.D. Jennifer Melfi in sessions with fans from various shows close to a nervous breakdown because of trying to make sense of the shows or suffering from  shipping dramas. Should open a virtual counselling center for tv show fans in crisis, including couple and family therapy for shipping dramas).

Edited October 19, 2014 by katusch

[KingOfHearts]

 

Season 1  Henry was as kid okay, but now as teenager he gets close to become as sympathetic as Wesley Crusher

Henry, Wesley Crusher, Walt from Lost... golden children are one of my banes.

 

I was wondering if Once would do better as dramedy than a straight-up drama. With all the crazy cheesy plot elements, there's a lot of comedy gold to be harvested. Lately I haven't been able to take the serious stuff on the show as all that weighty. Unless my favorite character dies, I really don't care much. The show has done humor better recently for the most part.

Edited October 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

I adore when this show pokes fun at the craziness. Things like Emma's "Not this shit again" reaction to Grumpy's latest town crier run down Main Street with the snow monster or making Little Bo Peep a warlord dressed in pastel finery goes a long way. Since the show is clearly not interested in exploring the consequences of the fairy tale nuttiness in any kind of real way, I also think it would behoove them to add more of that kind of humor.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[tennisgurl]

That's really why I`ve been enjoying this season (minus a lot of the Regina stuff). It seems like they`re actually having some fun again, at least when they aren't rushing through plot point after plot point, and wasting our time with pointless drama. This show is capable of bringing the drama when it really wants to, and at some point, I feel like it could have been a legit drama, but I much prefer it now as more of a slightly campy dramedy.

Edited October 19, 2014 by tennisgurl

[FurryFury]

I think pure fantasy adventure is the only stuff these writers can do consistently well. I liked the Arendelle stuff from the latest ep, I liked s3 finale, much of the Neverland arc and many fairybacks simply for this factor. They simply aren't good with drama, with consequences and long, drawn-out character arcs. But they can do fun light-hearted adventure, so when they do it, it's watchable, if not riveting. Maybe if they had more time to plan it out they could do something like season one, which married flashback adventure to present drama somewhat successfully, but it's quite clear it's impossible for them on a 22 episode per season network show.

Edited October 19, 2014 by FurryFury

[KingOfHearts]

 

Maybe if they had more time to plan it out they could do something like season one, which married flashback adventure to present drama somewhat successfully, but it's quite clear it's impossible for them on a 22 episode per season network show.

S1 is a completely different show. There is a huge stark difference S2 onward. Besides the less time, I wonder what happened to the writers that changed the feel of the show so drastically. First season was mostly just drama, and it did it really well, but in 2A things started getting super cartoony and adventure-focused. I believe 2B tried to replicate the Storybrooke drama setup but it failed.

Edited October 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FurryFury]

First season was mostly just drama, and it did it really well

 

S1 had plenty of other stuff, actually. Drama, comedy, adventure - it just was a really good blend of everything, plus some actual new stand-alone ideas. Thing is, is REALLY hard to write stand-alones consistently well. The only shows I've seen do it more or less OK were The X-Files and Buffy the Vampire Slayer (and even they had some flukes). There are good genre shows like Fringe or Person of Interest that have mostly snooze-worthy stand-alones. And I won't even start with non-genre stuff, it's even worse there, usually. So I understand why A&E made show more of an ongoing story starting with s2. It's just that when you do it, you should at least plan stuff like character development/arcs, long-term villains and their motivation, etc., and they, for whatever reason, haven't done it at all.

Edited October 19, 2014 by FurryFury

[KingOfHearts]

 

S1 had plenty of other stuff, actually. Drama, comedy, adventure - it just was a really good blend of everything, plus some actual new stand-alone ideas.

I meant in Storybrooke. Flashbacks will always be totally crazy fantasy in my book. :) It was far more serious than now. The whole real world attribute helped it feel more adultish. Now it's straight witches, fairies and unicorns the entire time. Like you said, S1 was more balanced.

Edited October 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FurryFury]

I think that, overall, I tend to prefer flashbacks to Storybrooke stuff in s1. I mean, we had the adorable Snowing romance vs soapy and tawdry David/Mary Margaret affair, badass Snow vs timid Mary Margaret, badass Charming vs douchy David Nolan, heartbreaking Red's origin vs cursed slutty (but still awesome!) Ruby, fabulous Regina's costumes and giggly Rumple (whom I still prefer to subdued Mr. Gold). Granted, Storybrooke had Emma, but still, it was the Enchanted Forest stuff that made me fall in love with the show (well, that, and the contrast, I guess). I mean, on paper, the Snow/Charming romance is something I should have hated at the first sight, because I tend to prefer my romances dark and angsty and twisted and up in the air when it comes to whether they would ever consummate. But I loved Snowing since their first meeting, which means it was actually well-written and acted. The Storybrooke affair, OTOH, made me want to fast-forward.

Edited October 19, 2014 by FurryFury

[Camera One]

Even in S2 and S3, sometimes, I did enjoy the flashback stories more than the present-day.  Even when the flashbacks did nothing in furthering the plot along, at least it tended to have a resolution at the end of each episode, so we could see the "heroes" get a win of some sort.  Whereas in the present-day, you had the villain of the season or half-season making a fool out of and constantly one-upping the useless protagonists, with the writers blatantly spinning their wheels by having the characters chase their tails.  Even in Season 1 Storybrooke, I was frustrated by the current-day plot as well, like the Mary Margaret/David stuff, or Regina/Sidney tricking Emma, etc.

 

But at least Season 1 Storybrooke had no magic, so it was a direct contrast between the magic-infused flashback and the everyday-life-non-magical current day.  Now, the current day has magic - worse than that, it's magic with no clearly defined rules.  

 

As we've said many times before, I think an easy way to try to improve the show would be to eliminate magical abilities in the present-day (no guarantees though since these writers can make a mess out of anything).  2B and 3B would have been so much better (on paper) if Cora and Zelena had to work within the laws of physics.  It would have prevented the tiresome formula of the megavillain being able to do whatever they wanted for 6 episodes before a deus ex machina or five suddenly result in their defeat, only to have a new megavillain emerge from the ashes.

 

Do people think the flashbacks this season might be better because they tell a coherent story, which is more akin to S1 which told the story of Snow White in flashbacks?  Back in S2, I was wondering how they could replicate that and initially I thought it would be telling the Sleeping Beauty story, but it would be tough if the entire cast of Sleeping Beauty wasn't in Storybrooke.  But now they're doing fine with only Elsa in Storybrooke, so I'm thinking they might have been able to do this in S2 if they had Aurora in Storybrooke with amnesia or something.  But they couldn't do that same formula for multiple seasons in a row... since revealing mysteries by flashbacks essentially only works if the title character doesn't remember what happened.  And they already did this in 3B, though much less successfully.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

Do people think the flashbacks this season might be better because they tell a coherent story, which is more akin to S1 which told the story of Snow White in flashbacks?

Yes. Granted, it helps that they're covering new territory, but I think the flashbacks thus far have been successful precisely for this reason.

[HoodlumSheep]

Yes. Granted, it helps that they're covering new territory, but I think the flashbacks thus far have been successful precisely for this reason.

I've been enjoying the flashbacks too. I also really like how the flashbacks are in order. They aren't skipping around causing timeline confusion.

[KAOS Agent]

It also helps that the flashbacks are tying in well with the present day storyline. It's not some story that's really reaching for a parallel.

[Camera One]

As predicted, Episode 4 of an arc is Rumple-Time.  

 

S1: The Price of Gold

S2: The Crocodile

3A: Nasty Habits

3B: Quiet Minds

4A: The Apprentice

 

I'm not sure if keeping to a formula like this might hold the storyline back or affect pacing, if they intentionally adjust plotlines just to give him the fourth episode.  In the case of "The Apprentice", I suppose it worked out alright.  But still... one of these days...

[Shanna Marie]

Looking back at the discussion of plot twists, I think that the problem is that this show does fake twists. They're surprises and a-ha! moments, but they aren't true twists or reversals because they seldom change the status quo or change the way you look at previous events. With the so-called twists on this show, either they aren't set up properly or they utterly fail in consequences.

 

One of the better surprises/twists on the show was the revelation that Prince Charming was actually a shepherd forced to pose as his long-lost twin brother. There was the big shock of seeing what we thought was our Charming being a total jerk, and then the bigger shock of seeing him die, followed by another shock at seeing the hair on the guy who really turned out to be our Charming. So those were all surprises in that episode, but that then the revelation made you look at previous episodes in a different way as it put "Snow Falls" into a whole new context as we realized what was really going on there. It even gave new meaning to Charming's plot to work with Cinderella to snare Rumple, since he came up with the idea of saying the baby was twins and adding that Rumple really likes twins. Then it had ongoing implications in the hold George had over Charming and the fact that George was willing to execute him, then later their rivalry in Storybrooke when George tried to challenge David for authority. It hasn't had quite as much impact since then as it probably should, since we never got to see Snow learning who he really was and they keep forgetting that he's only a prince by marriage (and maybe conquest) each time they've given him a crisis of confidence.

 

Snow being the one to cast the second curse should have been a huge twist with consequences, but they didn't bother to build up to it in a way that really made you look at it in a different light, and the only change to the status quo was making Snow mayor (which really only happened because Regina was pouting).

 

Regina being able to use light magic was more of an a-ha! surprise that didn't fit in context because it made no sense -- she had no heart, she wasn't even the most powerful dark magic user, she was keeping an innocent man locked up for her crime all this time and had even forgotten about him, she went right back to her bad self right away so how good could she have been?

 

Even a big reversal like breaking the first curse didn't have too many real consequences, as everyone kept going in their Storybrooke lives, other than going back to their real loves. It wasn't that big an upheaval. If they're going to do big surprises, they can't be so afraid of changing things.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Even a big reversal like breaking the first curse didn't have too many real consequences, as everyone kept going in their Storybrooke lives, other than going back to their real loves. It wasn't that big an upheaval. If they're going to do big surprises, they can't be so afraid of changing things.

Preach it!

 

This show gives perfect opportunities to fix some of the bad writing setups, then it totally passes it up for who knows why. A lot of the pacing issues in 3B could have been fixed if Storybrooke was magicless. In Neverland, the conditions were perfect for Snow to work on her relationship with Emma, but nope. In Bleeding Through, Regina could have finally worked out her issues with Snow. But nope. In Tale of Two Sisters, Regina seeing herself torture Marian in the mirror could have finally given her self-awareness. But nope.

 

Sometimes it's as if the writers know how to write it better but willingly choose not to.

[stealinghome]

It's because they're super uncreative with the characters. They don't know how to let them grow and change while still a) staying recognizably themselves and b) remaining compelling with interesting, tense, and unique interpersonal relationships.  So they never let the characters organically, and in a way that sticks, grow and change so that they'll never have to a) do the hard work of figuring out how they should evolve or b) admit that they have no vision and no plan.

 

imo you can see this most clearly in the way that they keep circling back to Emma=Savior and Henry=Heart/Book Guy way, way after both of those ideas should have naturally run their course and gone away. But the writers don't know what to do with an Emma who's not the Savior, and a Henry who isn't a Book-Guided Yoda, so they tie them to these concepts that hurt the characters more than they help. (Incidentally, that's been my mom's biggest complaint about Henry. She's not particularly a fan of the character--though she doesn't hate him nearly as much as some here do--but her comment for the last two seasons is that "They don't know how to let him grow up," and it's really true.

Edited October 21, 2014 by stealinghome

[Amerilla]

This is why I'm almost cool with the idea of a master storyteller....because the only thing that can excuse this level of plotting and characterization screw-up-ey is if it turns out that this is ultimately a show about an un-medicated schizophrenic writer who sits around all day writing and rewriting "Once Upon A Time" and "Once Upon A Time II: The Storybrooke Years."

I kid. Sort of.

[KingOfHearts]

"They don't know how to let him grow up," and it's really true.

They still write Henry as a 10 year old*, even though Jared is 14 now. Some of his behavior is just inappropriate now since he's no longer an innocent little kid any more. Take his talking back to Emma or attempting to steal a car, for example. Then there's the fact he's living in a creepy small town with no healthy social interaction or exposure, which fogs his judgement considerably.

Some of the problems on this show make me madder than they should because they're so easily remedied. The answer is always flashing right in my face, yet it's always skipped over or completely ignored. The writers go out of their way to make new contrivances which create new plot holes just to avoid their original plot holes. It's like a Ponzi scheme.

*I'm aware he's supposedly 12 on the show, but he still acts like he's 10.

Edited October 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

*I'm aware he's supposedly 12 on the show, but he still acts like he's 10.

My crack!fanwank for this is that in the S1 finale when Henry "died" he actually suffered from cerebral hypoxia, and as result when Emma revived him he came back with brain damage. The same thing happened to Snow -- brain damage due to cerebral hypoxia. That's how I explain away their persistent stupidity. Normally other people would notice that there's something wrong with them, but sleeping curses are so common in the Enchanted Forest that most of the population has brain damage and so they are truly amongst equals. Hook noticed all the brain damage at the end of S2 and that's why he took the magic bean, and he questioned Emma why she was going along with a plan put together by people who are clearly suffering from brain damage, but Emma was like "I know they're brain damaged, but they are my brain damaged people and I will go down with this stupid ship if it means I don't have to be alone anymore!"

 

That's my crack!fanwank and I'm sticking to it.

[KAOS Agent]

I'm aware he's supposedly 12 on the show, but he still acts like he's 10.

 

Henry didn't act 10 when he was 10. That's the problem. At the beginning, you could sort of suspend disbelief about his being so young and naive because of where he grew up and because he had the whole cute kid thing going, but now he's spent a year in New York City and isn't a cute kid, so that doesn't wash. At this point they have a 14 year old playing a 12 year old who often acts like an 8 year old. The actions that might be considered sweet for an eight year old to do like making the break-up basket come off as super creepy for a teenager. Something's got to give with Henry and his story.

 

I'm hoping that his weird out of character actions are meant to lead us into a Henry is growing up story line wherein he starts exhibiting Regina like tendencies and Regina starts to get a clue both about herself and the cycle continuing with her son. Henry thinking that it's good that Marian is frozen because it will bring his mom happiness could be the start of a very grey and hopefully evil Henry (I'm hoping the writers were inspired by Sleepy Hollow and want a sin eater Henry of their very own). Less heroes don't kill, more death to everyone who doesn't worship Regina's happy endings. The storyline is already ridiculous and makes no sense, so let's at least turn Henry to the dark side.

Edited October 21, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[FabulousTater]

Henry thinking that it's good that Marian is frozen because it will bring his mom happiness could be the start of a very grey and hopefully evil Henry (I'm hoping the writers were inspired by Sleepy Hollow and want a sin eater Henry of their very own).

I like where you're going with this. But we wouldn't want to be too blatant in copying Sleepy Hollow so I say ONCE writers make this Henry The Horseman of the Apocalpyse, War Pestilence. Yes, I think that will work quite nicely...

[KingOfHearts]

It's funny how Once has changed its focus so drastically over the seasons. S1 was main cast, 2A split its focus between Team Princess and Storybrooke, 2B put its focus all over the place, 3A put its focus on the cast in Neverland, 3B put its focus on Zelena, and 4A has puts its focus on Frozen. With that stuff going on, it's easy for the main cast to get lost in it all. Where the show's premise changes, so do the characters. Every arc we get a different Regina or Snow or Henry, and eventually they're unrecognizable.

 

I wouldn't mind if the show made big changes if the new content was actually... good, but so far most of the character development has been unfounded. There's no lead-up. The characters change to fit the plot instead of the plot to fit the characters. The cast from S1 are like a completely different set of people, except for maybe Emma and Charming. Development is good, but Once tends to rush it in order to get to an "exciting climax".

 

Frozen is by far the best part of S4 so far. (Including Dairy Queen) I haven't liked any of the main character arcs yet, to be honest.

Edited October 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I was thinking about how they've not only recycled the storyline from 3B about the cursed lips, but given that the Snow Queen knows Emma, it seems we also have another example of unknowing Emma being a target of a magic user ala New York City and Walsh. Now the Snow Queen may just be misunderstood and could be that she was wonderful to Emma, but since Rumpel said she wouldn't like it if Emma remembers, I'm thinking no. Not that I'm complaining about Emma getting actual stories, but back to back half seasons repeating the same thing is kind of ridiculous.

 

It's almost like their notion of character development is to give each character the same situation over and over again and when they do something differently, it's proof that they've changed. Of course, this completely ignores the idea that people will generally do something differently if whatever they did the first few times turned out badly. Look at Regina. She did something bad, bad things happened, she was sad. She then decided to be good since that might work out better for her (note: this is not the same as deciding to be good because it's the right thing to do), good things happened, but then her romance went south and she was sad. She then immediately decided being good wasn't the right choice either and flipped to option c which is to make someone else to act for her. It's trial and error, not character development. 

[Camera One]

given that the Snow Queen knows Emma, it seems we also have another example of unknowing Emma being a target of a magic user ala New York City and Walsh. Now the Snow Queen may just be misunderstood and could be that she was wonderful to Emma, but since Rumpel said she wouldn't like it if Emma remembers, I'm thinking no. Not that I'm complaining about Emma getting actual stories, but back to back half seasons repeating the same thing is kind of ridiculous.

 

Well said.  I want Emma stories as much as the next person, but I'm holding my breath in fear of this new retcon damaging Emma's backstory or being inconsistent with what we know about her and her past.

[Camera One]

This show has a new motto.... "Flashbacks always comes with a price!" and it's character assassination.  Charming finally gets his second one (in Season 4, no less) and apparently, he was a coward with horrible physical fitness who needed a young sassy girl who looks half his age to teach him how to stand up for himself and use a sword.  Emma gets her very first childhood flashback (again, in the freak'in fourth season), and it turns her present-day character into that reallllllllllllllllly needy person who follows people around and wants to be their friend. 

Edited October 28, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

This show has a new motto.... "Flashbacks always comes with a price!" and it's character assassination.

 

 

Cora got hers in 3B, then she became a naive whiny brat. Can't wait to see how far down Robin goes from where he is already when he gets his centric. *shutter*

[Crimson Belle]

So if Emma took a memory potion last year, why are her memories of the Snow Queen still missing?

[Rumsy4]

So if Emma took a memory potion last year, why are her memories of the Snow Queen still missing?

 

Same reason why Henry doesn't remember Regina mind-wiping him. :-p

[FormerMod-a1]

So if Emma took a memory potion last year, why are her memories of the Snow Queen still missing?

Different spell/curse.  The memory potion she took was to reverse the memories Regina gave her.  Not to recall memories the Snow Queen apparently removed.

[Mari]

Same reason why Henry doesn't remember Regina mind-wiping him. :-p

The DQ has the writers under "Do my will" spell, too? That would explain a lot. Zelena mustn't have gotten the info packet they give to villains on this show.

[KingOfHearts]

So if Emma took a memory potion last year, why are her memories of the Snow Queen still missing?

 

Snow Queen seems to have super strong magic, like all the villains on this show. Maybe her forget spells are stronger than what the forget potion can remedy.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Different spell/curse.  The memory potion she took was to reverse the memories Regina gave her.  Not to recall memories the Snow Queen apparently removed.

 

I'd buy into that except the memory potion was created  by Zelena to maintain the memories of a select few being brought into the second curse (it was intended for Rumpel), not to restore the memories taken when the first curse was reversed.

 

The whole thing is just more of the writers not having any rules or logic for magic in their world.

[FormerMod-a1]

I guess my point was different memory curses (adding, removing, by different people, for different numbers of people) and therefore different antidotes.

[Rumsy4]

I don't see why it wouldn't work. Zelena added a potion that would wipe people's memories into the Dark Curse 2.0 cauldron. And yet, her antidote to her potion restored Emma's lost memories caused by the disappearance of Storybrooke 1.0. Another potion has restored memory loss caused by Dark Curse-related stuff (Belle).

True Love's Kiss has restored people's memories, when the memory loss was caused by potions (Snowing & Regina/Henry) or Dark Curses (Emma/Henry).

Emma has experienced both a True Love's kiss and has imbibed a memory-restoring potion. And yet, her memories of the DQ haven't been restored. It smells like the plot-contrivance fairy at work again. Maybe they'll claim that when a person uses a spell, like Regina did on Henry, nothing will restore the memory, until another plot-comtrivance comes along.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Rumsy4

[kili]

So if Emma took a memory potion last year, why are her memories of the Snow Queen still missing?

 

Maybe traditional memory potions just hide the memory. They are still there, but the person cannot access them. The Snow Queen may be using Rock Troll magic. They actually remove the memory so it can never be restored (unless you put that stuff back in).

 

Of course, if my theory is correct, that means Rumple should know exactly what Emma said to him back in the Enchanted Forrest. If True Love Kisses can reverse memory potions effects, Rumple should know that Bae was going to "die a hero" after hearing the name Emma broke the first curse for him. He might have continued to choose not to do anything after the first curse broke since he still had not been re-united with Bae and he even may have been reluctant to do anything to change time afterwards because Bae had still not expressed his forgiveness of Rumple until he died (but it was too late by then). He would certainly know now.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I think the only way I'd buy it is if the memories are gone forever, never to be recovered. Then I could understand why multiple memory-breaking-things haven't worked-because there's nothing to be retrieved, the memories are entirely erased.

[Camera One]

I believe Adam and Eddy look over all scripts one final time and tweak them before they are approved. While the individual writers do the bulk of the writing, Adam and Eddy have a hand in the initial conception and the final product. In what universe did they, an of them, think it was as excellent idea for an episode to have the most un-selfaware character in the show verbally eviscerate the supposed main character and "good" guy of the show? The mind boggles. 

 

 

 

Also, quite frankly, if Adam and Eddie see that one writer is noticeably weaker than the rest, it's their job to a) get rid of that person or b) help them improve.

 

I tend to place the main responsibility on Adam and Eddy as well.  I am assuming that they determine the ultimate goal/endpoint and character development of each episode, which is often the overarching issue.  So A&E would have decided the gist of "Breaking Glass" was to have Emma decide she can't give up on Regina.  Since it was a new writer, either Adam and Eddy would have decided on the motivation of Emma's action (all she wants is to be Regina's friend), or they would have approved what the writer decided.  And in 3B, Adam and Eddy would have decided which episodes would feature Zelena, so that would be on them.  The specific dialogue and the details/flow of the plot-of-the-week I would blame the individual writers for.  

 

As someone said a while back, it's really hard to figure out who wrote what when episodes are written in teams of two.  Specifically, regarding Kalinda Vasquez, I actually thought some of the dialogue in "Quiet Minds" was decent (between Neal and Belle, for example).  Some of the other episodes she team-wrote were pretty bad, though (eg. "Tiny", where the specific details of what was occurring in Storybrooke made no sense, though the writer had to work around not having Cora and using Regina, which was very odd), but I assume for "Selfless, Brave and True" and "Kansas", the base problems with those episodes was with the whole planning process or in the case of the August episode, to build that entire hour around Tamara, which would be on Adam and Eddy.  Having said that, the whole sequence of the current-day events in Storybrooke in "Kansas" was just atrocious.  I looked through who wrote what in the summer, and every writer seems to have a mix of good but also truly horrific episodes.

 

"Breaking Glass" was a horrible episode overall, but I personally found the dialogue in the flashback of "White Out" to be much more clunky, and that was a veteran experienced writer.  Maybe it was just that Jennifer Morrison's dialogue delivery was still very good in "Breaking Glass" which lessened the impact of what she was saying.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

With Adam and Eddy's latest response on Graham's death, and them saying that Emma doesn't know Regina murdered him, I think we can put to rest two of the things we frequently wonder about. Are the good guys really that stupid? Yes. Everything needs to be spelled out for them. Do the characters have conversations off-screen about important things? No, never. 

 

We can safely assume that Snow and Charming also think that Graham died a natural death. We can pretty much be sure that Snow and Charming don't know anything about Neal and Emma's past relationship. Does Snow even know Regina got her father killed? Does Snow know Emma almost died inside Elsa's ice-cave? After all--such a scene was never shot, and we never saw any allusion to it on-screen! Does Emma know Henry is working in Mr. Gold's shop? etc. etc. I get that bringing Graham's murder or Henry's mind-wipe to light doesn't fit the writers' agenda, but these kinds of statements make it hard to take anything they do in the Show seriously. 

Edited November 2, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

Kalinda Vazquez was responsible for "bold and audacious". She's confirmed that she wrote that scene quite proudly. Just putting that out there.

[Camera One]

Yeah, individual lines like those, are the ones she can definitely be blamed for.  Yikes.  Though A&E allowed that to be included in the script, when it was practically a screaming four-alarm fire on paper.  

 

I get that bringing Graham's murder or Henry's mid-wipe to light doesn't fit the writers' agenda, but these kinds of statements make it hard to take anything they do in the Show seriously.

 

Henry's mind-wipe is another really good example of something that will never be mentioned again.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Henry's mind-wipe is another really good example of something that will never be mentioned again.

How about Regina's attempt to seduce Charming in The Stranger? (Or pretty much everything she did in S1 Storybrooke...)

Edited November 2, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I think the biggest sticking point with the Graham issue as opposed to all the other stuff that they don't want to acknowledge from Seasons 1 & 2 is that they brought Graham into the story in Season 4. I know that the intent was just to name check him in a See? We didn't forget about him kind of way, but they did this to themselves. By having Emma list Graham on her list of lost loved ones, they injected him into a Captain Swan roadblock and had Emma acknowledge in canon that Graham's death affected her strongly enough that it's part of the reason she's having a hard time opening herself up to another relationship. And whose fault is it that Graham is dead? Oh right. This then feeds into the ridiculousness of Emma taking all of Regina's abuse without a word about the Marian situation.

 

By not establishing who knows what, not acknowledging or providing closure for a huge moment in Season 1 and pretending that Regina's completely in the right in this situation (or not at least allowing the narrative to show that Regina is a complete hypocrite and delusional), they've created a huge problem. It's apparent the writers didn't see this coming and that's actually what is most worrying. They are so disconnected from the story that they've already told that they can't understand how badly the story they want to tell right now is affected by it. As I said in another thread, I do believe based on Eddy's response that he was seeing the problems with what occurred in "Breaking Glass" in conjunction with the lack of closure from Graham's death, he just didn't know how to explain it away to fix it. Because they can't fix it. And of course, they are currently filming the mid-season finale, so they are stuck with this story as is. However, if the cluelessness in the writing continues the way it has with regards to this and other issues, they will lose viewers and they have to know that.  

[Camera One]

It's apparent the writers didn't see this coming and that's actually what is most worrying.

 

 

 

However, if the cluelessness in the writing continues the way it has with regards to this and other issues, they will lose viewers and they have to know that.

 

They don't see most things coming, though, and they've been doing this since Season 2.  They choose to write something or to ignore something, and put no thought into the ramifications that would have for the characters.  This has occurred to varying degrees with all characters, even Regina.  The writers don't strike me as all that worried.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I don't disagree that the writers aren't worried, but given the dramatic drop in ratings in Season 2, maybe they should be. Season 1 told a very specific story of Emma coming to town to defeat the Evil Queen and save a kingdom. Rumpel and the Evil Queen were painted as more complex than simply just evil for evil's sake, but the story maintained that their actions were terrible and inexcusable. People were sold on that show. When Season 2 turned into the Regina victim tour and they refused to deal with the issues they'd created in the first season, people tuned out. The show had changed and it wasn't interesting to them anymore. 

 

Shows obviously evolve over time, but if you go from telling a story about a genuinely good person who tries to help people be the best they can be and get their happy endings to a story about an unrepentant mass murderer whining and blaming everyone for her unhappiness all while ignoring the things in her life that make it quite wonderful, you're going to lose viewers. That's not the story they tuned in for. I know that it's assumed that Regina has the biggest fan base, but I'm not sure that that's true. Many people love the Evil Queen, others love to hate Mayor Mills, but I'm not sure there's a whole lot of love for whiny, victim blaming Regina. especially not when her golden child status causes the narrative to paint her whining and abuse as justified. It's not a hopeful story when an innocent wife and mother needs to die because she's standing in the way of soulmates or when a woman who has been screwed over her entire life is repeatedly abused, insulted and belittled for doing the right thing. Where's the feelgood story of returning happy endings? It's all been sacrificed on the altar of victimhood. And now I've depressed myself just thinking about where this show has gone.

[Rumsy4]

 

It's not a hopeful story when an innocent wife and mother needs to die because she's standing in the way of soulmates or when a woman who has been screwed over her entire life is repeatedly abused, insulted and belittled for doing the right thing. Where's the feelgood story of returning happy endings? It's all been sacrificed on the altar of victimhood. And now I've depressed myself just thinking about where this show has gone.

 

I agree, KAOS. Do any of us have a doubt that Marian will be dead by the end of the season? When they did this plot, I had hopes that this would be when Regina finally gained some self-awareness. But that's not what has happened. Marian has been painted as a vanilla loser-type who is literally a frozen obstacle for Regina to get her Happy Ending. I'm still disturbed by the verbal and emotional battering Emma took in the last episode. This show has gone to a very morally dark and twisted place indeed. 

[Mathius]

I don't disagree that the writers aren't worried, but given the dramatic drop in ratings in Season 2, maybe they should be. Season 1 told a very specific story of Emma coming to town to defeat the Evil Queen and save a kingdom. Rumpel and the Evil Queen were painted as more complex than simply just evil for evil's sake, but the story maintained that their actions were terrible and inexcusable. People were sold on that show. When Season 2 turned into the Regina victim tour and they refused to deal with the issues they'd created in the first season, people tuned out. The show had changed and it wasn't interesting to them anymore.

Shows obviously evolve over time, but if you go from telling a story about a genuinely good person who tries to help people be the best they can be and get their happy endings to a story about an unrepentant mass murderer whining and blaming everyone for her unhappiness all while ignoring the things in her life that make it quite wonderful, you're going to lose viewers. That's not the story they tuned in for. I know that it's assumed that Regina has the biggest fan base, but I'm not sure that that's true. Many people love the Evil Queen, others love to hate Mayor Mills, but I'm not sure there's a whole lot of love for whiny, victim blaming Regina. especially not when her golden child status causes the narrative to paint her whining and abuse as justified. It's not a hopeful story when an innocent wife and mother needs to die because she's standing in the way of soulmates or when a woman who has been screwed over her entire life is repeatedly abused, insulted and belittled for doing the right thing. Where's the feelgood story of returning happy endings? It's all been sacrificed on the altar of victimhood. And now I've depressed myself just thinking about where this show has gone.

QFT.

And dropping some of my obligatory love for 3A, where "Save Henry" aside Regina was on the backburner and played a supporting role and Emma's own personal development was once again at the forefront of the show. A pity that 4A couldn't do the same.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Mathius

[Jean]

I don't blame the staff writers at all. Yes sometimes the dialogue is super cheesy or clunky but 95% of the time, the premise of the episode is the problem and no amount of good writing is going to fix it. The dialogue is like the frosting on the cake. It can only enhance the cake. But the cake is what gives you indigestion. I can't think of a single episode on this show where I thought, man if only they had good dialogue, this epsiode will be so much better. Because this show is so heavy on the plot, the words don't actually matter that much.

Take Bleeding Through written by Jane E. She's decent enough right, for this show? But can anybody make the premise, "Eva is an evil bitch because she told the truth and that bloodline keeps victimizing the poor poor Mills women" palatable? Serious question here. Yeah she wrote that line where Snow said she was a brat but if the point of the episode was that Eva and Snow ruined lives and Snow has to admit it, what sentence is going to make it sound good and still be in line with what they want the point to be?

Snow: I was a brat that killed Cora in self-defense but you're an evil whiny slug who killed my dad.

Like that would pass A&E 's approval? Not to mention it changes the meaning of the scene now.