S03.E03: All Debts Paid

[toolazy]

14 hours ago, Nidratime said:

Didn't that actually happen in the book?

No. Jamie rode to Helwater. 

[DittyDotDot]

22 hours ago, Nidratime said:

Didn't that actually happen in the book?

Perhaps you're thinking of when Jamie is brought back to Ardmuir after he escapes and goes looking for the White Witch? I believe he is tied behind a horse for that in the book.

[WatchrTina]

9 hours ago, mledawn said:

I didn't get the feeling that Frank threatened to take Brianne - he stated he was going and he was asking her, and he knew she would say yes. That wasn't a threat to me - he wasn't doing an if-then, he was telling her his plan.

If that's your reaction then that's valid but I think Claire's interpretation is that Frank intended to make Brianna choose between her parents -- to pick which side of the ocean she wanted to live on -- confident that she would choose HIM.  He didn't care how much it would hurt Claire to be separated from her child -- Jamie's child.  He had set things up -- stuck around long enough -- so that now he could have what HE wanted: a life with his daughter and a new wife and Claire could go to hell.

 

9 hours ago, mledawn said:

I was confused about Lord Grey dropping Jamie off at the castle - wasn't Jamie still indentured at that time in the books? LJG made it seem like Jamie was "free" when Jamie had the shackles removed.

Those shackles were put on at the very start of the journey -- we see it happen in the scene where they leave Ardsmuir -- so the shackles coming off is (I think) meant to signal that the journey is over, not that Jamie is "free."  Similarly he wasn't free when John took the shackles off earlier in the episode as payment for interpreting the ravings of the dying man -- his life was simply made less miserable than before.  The same is true here.  Jamie is still a prisoner but now he has been "paroled" to work on an estate for an unknown amount of time -- possibly forever.  He's out of that dark, dank prison cell.  But he's not "free."

[Nidratime]

Quote

Perhaps you're thinking of when Jamie is brought back to Ardmuir after he escapes and goes looking for the White Witch? I believe he is tied behind a horse for that in the book.

That's probably it. I do recall it happening at some point during this part of the story.

[AD55]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

If that's your reaction then that's valid but I think Claire's interpretation is that Frank intended to make Brianna choose between her parents -- to pick which side of the ocean she wanted to live on -- confident that she would choose HIM.  He didn't care how much it would hurt Claire to be separated from her child -- Jamie's child.  He had set things up -- stuck around long enough -- so that now he could have what HE wanted: a life with his daughter and a new wife and Claire could go to hell.

To play devil's advocate, I have friends whose children went to college in, or moved to, other countries at a young age. They were sad to be separated from them but supportive. Living in other countries is enriching, which Claire, with her background, would know. There's no reason to think Bree wouldn't/couldn't have spent summers in Boston or Claire couldn't have visited her in England. Also no reason to think that Bree would have lived in Britain forever. I don't fault Frank for wanting a new life, and a desire to hurt Claire was no doubt in the mix. People are complicated and sometimes petty. But I do hesitate to embrace the idea that Bree was being torn from her mother's breast. She might have chosen to live with Frank in the short term, but that's not quite the same thing as choosing Frank over Claire, though I agree with you that Claire might have interpreted it that way and felt rejected if Bree decided to live with her dad. If I'm honest, I think there might be a small cottage in my right ventricle (there's a tall hedge around it), where I wouldn't mind being the favorite parent.

I'm not nearly as close to the books as most people posting here, but IIRC (and as I think someone else said up thread), Frank did eventually support Claire's decision to go to medical school and took on the role of primary caregiver. University professors have more flexible schedules, can work at home, etc. Claire and Frank were in a position of privilege. Most parents have to make much more complicated, expensive, and fraught decisions when it comes to childcare.

I think the decision to make Frank a more sympathetic character is an improvement on the books. It makes for a more complicated portrayal of a marriage. I remember thinking that DG was very invested in our rooting for C&J as the couple for the ages, and vilifying Frank was one way to accomplish that while making sure that judgmental readers don't hate Claire for prefering Jamie over Frank. As I say, my recall of the books, which I read about 6 years ago is hazy, so I'm sure this opinion will be easy to shoot down.

P.S. I agree it was crappy for Frank to spring this on Claire the way he did, as though they both weren't invested in what's right for Bree. He could have said, "I've met someone, and I feel I need a clean break. You know I've never really adjusted to living in the US. I've been offered a job at Oxford and I'd like Bree to live with me. I realize this needs to be her decision, but I am hoping you will at least be willing for us to present it to her that way. I think we can both agree that putting Bree in a position of choosing between which parent she loves more would be bad for Bree." But people, especially those who have been badly hurt, don't always behave in measured, reasonable ways.

Edited September 29, 2017 by AD55

[GHScorpiosRule]

I promise, this is the last time I'll beat this dead horse and then I'll shut up because now, Frank is gone and DEAD. 

But.  The primary reason he wanted to take Bree away to England wasn't for culture enrichment or whatever. It's because he didn't want her to get involved with a Black man. Either she had a good friend who was Black, and he thought she was on the way to get romantic with him, or he thought that Claire was Fucking Joe Abernathy, and he thought that would influence Bree to do the same.

And since these first three episodes spanned and gave us snapshots of the 20 years of their marriage, I don't think it would have made him look like a moustache twirling villain if the writers could have sprinkled in this aspect of his character. 

Sae now, I'm just goooing tae sit bock and enjoy watching Claire return to Jamie and watch them reunite and hijinks on the sea! Even if it was a French Farce in the buik!!?

❤️???❤️

❤️????Jamie'nClaire 4EVERR!!????❤️

[AD55]

26 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I promise, this is the last time I'll beat this dead horse and then I'll shut up because now, Frank is gone and DEAD. 

But.  The primary reason he wanted to take Bree away to England wasn't for culture enrichment or whatever. It's because he didn't want her to get involved with a Black man. Either she had a good friend who was Black, and he thought she was on the way to get romantic with him, or he thought that Claire was Fucking Joe Abernathy, and he thought that would influence Bree to do the same.

And since these first three episodes spanned and gave us snapshots of the 20 years of their marriage, I don't think it would have made him look like a moustache twirling villain if the writers could have sprinkled in this aspect of his character. 

Sae now, I'm just goooing tae sit bock and enjoy watching Claire return to Jamie and watch them reunite and hijinks on the sea! Even if it was a French Farce in the buik!!?

❤️???❤️

❤️????Jamie'nClaire 4EVERR!!????❤️

Completely inexcusable. I couldn't agree more, but that wasn't included in the television series, which goes to my point that Moore et al. chose to make Frank a less easily loathed character. Folks disagree about whether that is a reasonable change from the book. I happen to be okay with it, but that doesn't mean I think everyone should be. I realize I left the door open to book comparisons when I mentioned the bit about Frank's eventually coming round to Claire's decision to go to medical school.

In brief, within the contours of the TV series, I think Claire and Frank are both flawed characters, who at various points in their lives could have, and arguably should have, made different choices.  That's what makes them interesting. I can look back at my own life and think "what the hell was I thinking?!"

I've found the Jamie story line more compelling this year, and I recall feeling the same way about the book, at least before Claire and Bree go to Scotland. I'm a sucker for stories about investigative journalism and historical mysteries. As someone said, it might sound dull to have characters sifting through boxes for archival information, but DG makes it really interesting (to me at least).

Edited September 29, 2017 by AD55

[DittyDotDot]

34 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I promise, this is the last time I'll beat this dead horse and then I'll shut up because now, Frank is gone and DEAD. 

But.  The primary reason he wanted to take Bree away to England wasn't for culture enrichment or whatever. It's because he didn't want her to get involved with a Black man. Either she had a good friend who was Black, and he thought she was on the way to get romantic with him, or he thought that Claire was Fucking Joe Abernathy, and he thought that would influence Bree to do the same.

And since these first three episodes spanned and gave us snapshots of the 20 years of their marriage, I don't think it would have made him look like a moustache twirling villain if the writers could have sprinkled in this aspect of his character. 

Sae now, I'm just goooing tae sit bock and enjoy watching Claire return to Jamie and watch them reunite and hijinks on the sea! Even if it was a French Farce in the buik!!?

❤️???❤️

❤️????Jamie'nClaire 4EVERR!!????❤️

Personally, I think Frank's real motivation for suddenly wanting to move back to England and take Bree with him had to do with something he learned about the conspiracy. Of course, I didn't come up with that theory until later, so my opinion of what Frank's motivations at the time I read Voyager was that he was just twisting the knife in Claire a little more now that he finally got her attention after years of failing to do so. The kid was Joe's son and Frank was jealous of the relationship Claire and Joe had--not because he was black, IMO, but because he was a man Claire gave affection to, even though it wasn't sexual, when Frank couldn't get her to give him the time of day. And the last close relationship Claire had with a man was Jamie...who she did fuck.

Anyway, I just don't think the show had enough time to really build up everything that was flawed with Frank--and it doesn't really matter in the long run, he's dies and Claire returns to Jamie--so they shortcut it to, "we had an agreement" and moved on. I'm fine with that myself. I don't need to hate Frank in order to like Claire or Jamie or root for Claire and Jamie over Claire and Frank.

Edited September 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[morgan]

I agree, DittyDotDot.  I am also very curious if we will see more from Diana in future books that really clarify if there was more to Frank wanting to take Bree away, at least in the book.  

There are so many layers to these books!  I think that is what makes them so re-readable to me.  And there is really no way they could cover it all in the show. 

[Juliegirlj]

No matter how one feels about Frank, it would be a horrible position to be in. He no doubt compared himself to Jamie, and wondered what it was that made Claire love Jamie so much, when Frank had the same type of love for Claire at the beginning. Perhaps his pride made him hold on to the marriage for so long, and Bri's graduation made him realize that if he and Claire could not rekindle what they had by that point then they never would. In a failing marriage, the two parties can and usually do hurt each other in ways no one else can.  Kids coming into adulthood is a common time for a marriage to end. ( it did with my parents). 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Okay, I just made a liar out of myself, but I will say two things: one, though I didn't and never liked Frank, I also am not obsessed or need him to be the present day version of his great great great, whatever Uncle Black Jack. Two, it was his idea to stay married; he wanted Bree to be "their" child, and if he wasn't getting the same love from Claire after she returned pregnant, then he more than consoled himself with the string of affairs he had, that Claire didn't know about, as well as still getting/having sex from/with Claire.

Sorry, I don't see him as some sad sack of a deceived victim. I'd post this in the Unpopular Thread, but there's no buik talk allowed there.

[Atlanta]

I thought he wanted to take her due to reading something about her in history. That's why he trained her to ride and shoot.

[nodorothyparker]

There's certainly a case to be made for connecting the dots between whatever Frank found out and wanting to take Bree to England, but the books never specifically say that's what it was.  It's all left to interpretation.

I do think we can assume that whatever it was, Frank never got beyond throwing his intentions in Claire's face to run the idea past Bree.  At no point in any of the books, does she ever mention that she had planned to move to England with Frank or that they ever even discussed it.  Considering that when we meet Roger, he's a pretty serious university level academic of his own, it seems a natural subject that might have come up.

[WatchrTina]

8 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Frank is gone and DEAD. 

Moms Mabley once said, "I know you're only supposed to say good things about the dead.  Well, he's dead.  GOOD!!"

Edited September 29, 2017 by WatchrTina

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Moms Mabley once said, "I know you're only supposed to say good things about the dead.  Well, he's dead.  GOOD!!"

FUCKING A!!!

[MsProudSooner]

Perhaps Bree and Roger bring more interesting documents and letters back to the Ridge with them in book 9.  

[WatchrTina]

I'm dipping in and out of old episodes of Outlander this morning.  I COULD watch the first episode of Season 4 on demand but I kind of want to work myself up to that moment by re-sampling season 3 again.

At any rate, I just dropped in to say, Sam Heughan is a FOOKING good actor.  I hits you right in the face when you see the flashbacks in this episode vs. the scenes set in the present.  The flashbacks are to a man who is in his 20's, happily married, a leader of men despite his youth, a man engaged in a cause he believes in.  The man in the present is nearly destroyed by grief, struggling to keep it together only because of the duty he feels toward his men.  In real life Sam aged 2 years between the shooting of those scenes but in the show you totally believe that over 10 years -- and much tragedy --  have passed between those flashbacks and he present.  

God I love this show.

Edited November 5, 2018 by WatchrTina

[Cdh20]

5 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I'm dipping in and out of old episodes of Outlander this morning.  I COULD watch the first episode of Season 4 on demand but I kind of want to work myself up to that moment by re-sampling season 3 again.

At any rate, I just dropped in to say, Sam Heughan is a FOOKING good actor.  I hits you right in the face when you see the flashbacks in this episode vs. the scenes set in the present.  The flashbacks are to a man who is in his 20's, happily married, a leader of men despite his youth, a man and engaged in a cause he believes in.  The man in the present is nearly destroyed by grief, struggling to keep it together only because of the duty he feels toward his men.  In real life Sam aged 2 years between the shooting of those scenes but in the show you totally believe that over 10 years -- and much tragedy --  have passed between those flashbacks.  

God I love this show.

When I sell everyone I know on this show I always start out with how fine the acting is! (I know some people lead with the sex, lol) These people make you feel these characters like no others on Tv- am I wrong on this? Sorry this is not about this episode although it is one of my favourites, for exactly that reason.