A New Beginning: OUAT 2.0

[tennisgurl]

The whole "time works differently" thing seems so confusing, especially because Hyperion Heights isn't some secluded little town on the seaside. Its in the middle of Seattle, a major metropolitan area. And, does that mean that Henry aged weirdly, and he saw Regina and Emma one day as a teenager, and then the next day he was an adult? That just sounds messed up, especially with Emma's history growing up without knowing her parents, and how heartbroken Charming and Snow were that they missed so much of Emma's life. 

Am I missing something?

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Am I missing something?

We're all missing something because they haven't explained the timeline and keep saying it will become clear. We don't know if time is working differently, or if it does, where it does. I don't think it's working differently in Hyperion Heights. I'm not even sure it's supposed to be different in the world where Henry went. Yeah, Emma, Hook, and Regina hadn't aged at all when they answered Henry's call, even though it has possibly been as much as ten years since the end of season 6. They didn't seem too surprised at how much Henry had aged, and Regina felt the need to catch Henry up on what was going on in town, like there are years for him to catch up on instead of months, and now they're saying Henry left home after 2017, which means that there's been enough time that all these changes would have happened while Henry was still in Storybrooke. If the battle against the Black Fairy really did bring about happy endings for all of Storybrooke, then in 3-6 years or so, you'd think that would already have been clear to him, and he would have known that Archie was officiating more weddings than he was seeing patients (I think Archie's counseling practice died off because Hook became the unofficial town counselor -- he started on that as early as late season 2 when he accurately diagnosed Regina's issue, and he was far more effective in helping Emma work through her issues than Archie ever was. I imagine everyone saying something like, "Yeah, Archie got a doctorate from a curse, but Killian's really been there, you know?"). But then Hyperion Heights is set in 2017, so time travel? If Lucy is Henry and Ella's kid, add another 10 or so years, since she hasn't been conceived yet in the flashbacks, but none of the adults seem to have aged a day.

At the moment, the timeline seems to go:
Equivalent of 1983 or so: Alice is born
2014 or 2015: Emma and Hook get married, it's happy endings for everyone in Storybrooke
One year after season six (maybe 2015 or 2016): Belle, Rumple, and little Gideon head off on adventures
2017: Adult Henry and his 10-year-old daughter, along with Regina, Rumple, and the Wish Realm's Hook, are in Seattle
2019: 18-year old Henry leaves Storybrooke to go get famous
2025 or so: Henry meets Ella, Rumple shows up in that world after Belle's death. Regina decides to stay with Henry, Wish Hook deages himself and stays with Henry, they run into 20-something Alice. Emma is pregnant
2032 or so (assuming Gideon is about 17 or 18 when he gets into a magical university, and assuming they haven't all been in a realm where time moves differently): Gideon gets into "Hogwarts" and Rumple and Belle move to Paradise Falls, where time moves faster and Belle dies
2036 or so (assuming Lucy is Henry and Ella's kid): the curse is cast and they're all sent to Seattle in 2017

It's enough to give you a headache.

[Camera One]

Interview with the actress who plays Victoria:

Quote

HL: Explain what the day looks like.  

GA: We film a lot of footage that we don’t know if we necessarily need, but it’s good to have in case. 

This is certainly interesting... "a lot" of footage?  She mentions that she's finding it a bit of a transition to get back in front of the camera instead of being behind the camera for 3 years, so the fact that she points this out may be significant?  Who's "we"?  The actors?  The director?  A&E?

It looks like this interview was done before Season 7 premiered, though, based on the last question.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

This is certainly interesting... "a lot" of footage? 

That's always been the case with the Show, though. They apparently write and film and lot more than ever gets used. That explains at least some of the continuity errors, deleted scenes, and script teases that never show up. 

[Camera One]

I thought maybe they had to tighten up their budget and have less of that, but I guess not.

[Rumsy4]

14 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I thought maybe they had to tighten up their budget and have less of that, but I guess not.

That would mean being more disciplined in writing their screenplays, wouldn't it? I guess they decided to cut down costs in other areas. ;-) 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

It's enough to give you a headache.

even Doctor Who's timeline is easier to follow than this.

Edited December 1, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

12 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

even Doctor Who's timeline is easier to follow than this.

Even in "The Pandorica Opens"/"The Big Bang," when the Doctor was bouncing around in time setting things up, Amy was in stasis, robot Rory had to spend a couple of thousand years guarding her (while real Rory was erased from history, except the robot was kind of real Rory, who ended up remembering the experience), and River was in the TARDIS that was exploding throughout time, all at the same time. That was straightforward compared to this.

But I think that's largely because the wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey is built into the plot and thought about. In this show, it was supposed to be a big deal that traveling in time to change the past violated the laws of magic, and it was nearly impossible to do, but then Zelena did it (without much difficulty and without any particularly nearly impossible special circumstances). But that was supposed to be a one-time thing. Neverland sometimes had time differences -- like when Wendy wasn't gone long but thought it was weeks -- but then became a 1/1 ratio of time passing, from what we can tell. You don't age while you're there, but a day there=a day elsewhere. Then they introduced the realm where time passed more quickly and Gideon became an adult in days. And then there's the issue that they don't really change the characters when they should be aging. Hook when he met Milah looked the same as when he must have spent about eight years with her (based on the change in Bae's age). And he looked more or less the same after Henry had been gone for years, and present-day Rogers looks about the same age. They used the ponytail and bangs to show when he was really young, and I think Colin played early Hook differently -- more brash young fratboy -- but the only appearance thing that's changed even slightly about Hook in what has to be at least 20 years (physically) for him is his wardrobe and his hair, and his hair has been subtle variations like the floppy hair of season 5 or season 7's short cop haircut. Not that I want him to have old-age makeup and salt-and-pepper hair, but if a character ages at least 20 years, he should maybe look different, or have a reason he doesn't look different. Or don't have that much time pass. They also could have just used Jen's new short hair instead of doing the bad wig, if ten years were supposed to have passed. Let her look more mature rather than having the princess hair.

But instead, we're left with a seemingly impossible timeline, and they keep telling us it will all be clear soon.

[Camera One]

I'm Pollyanna today, so I came in to say that the thing that impresses me most about Season 7 is the name Jacinda.  I think that was a cool modern name for Cinders.

[tennisgurl]

At this point, this time line is such a mess, I half expect Barry Allen to come by and apologize for running a bit too fast last week and screwing up time again! 

Of course, the big problem here is that the story itself isn't that interesting, and most of the characters are kind of boring and we dont know them very well, so we have to focus on crap like timeline issues instead of talking about the actual plot. Personally, I can deal with timeline screw ups and continuity errors if they help a good story happen, but this isn't a very good story. So, here we are. 

My issue here is the world building though, and not the time line. I cant keep track of the time stuff in general, but I CAN be baffled as to how this universe is supposed to work. 

[Camera One]

7 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Of course, the big problem here is that the story itself isn't that interesting, and most of the characters are kind of boring and we dont know them very well, so we have to focus on crap like timeline issues instead of talking about the actual plot. Personally, I can deal with timeline screw ups and continuity errors if they help a good story happen, but this isn't a very good story. So, here we are. 

I wonder... do you all think this season would have had a much different response if the chemistry between Henry and Cinderella had been through the roof, if Victoria had been an extra delicious villain, and if Lucy had been super sympathetic?

In other words... is it equally casting and the writing?  Or one more than the other?

Edited December 3, 2017 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

In other words... is it equally casting and the writing?  Or one more than the other?

I think its a combination of both, with poor casting effecting poor writing, and vice versa. I dont think the actors here are bad, exactly, but they arent perfectly cast the way the previous heroes and villains were, and that allows the bad writing to really start to show. I think a lot of the crappy writing in the past was greatly helped by actors who worked really well in their parts, and this time we dont have that as much. Of course, this is on a person by person base. I think the girl who plays Lucy is fine, but her writing is so inconsistent, and she is so ill defined as a character, that she really has nothing to work with, especially being so young. On the other hand, I think a better actress could have made Jacinda/Cinderella work a bit better, even if her writing isn't very good either. Maybe we could have seen more conflictedness in her in the EF, or more warmth Seattle, but instead, the actress comes off as too unsympathetic, or too dull to really be interesting. The biggest issue to me is that the casting, while good in some places, isn't hiding the bad writing the way it used to, so now end up focusing on plot details because we dont have the engaging characters or bigger plot threads to talk about instead. 

[Camera One]

I was watching part of the animated Cinderella, and Lady Tremaine is pure evil without actually killing anyone.  A&E thought making Tremaine shockingly murdering the Fairy Godmother automatically made her a big splashy villain.  Instead, it made her even more of a cartoon and I will become nauseous if they try to give her a sob story after that.  In the Season 6 episode, the actress playing Lady Tremaine was menacing as hell, long before she skewered Cinders in the stables.  Sometimes, less is more.  Similarly, the pathetic attempt to create (or should I say, re-create) an epic meeting between kickass Cinderella and Henry backfired and made her seem like a total user.  

In the present-day, instead of giving Henry and Jacinda room to develop, it's one crisis after another where the problem is always the same - Jacinda over-reacts and makes a bad decision.  They insta-bonded at the bar in the first episode, then had a big fight by the second episode before Henry saved the day. In the third episode, Jacinda makes a bad decision with Lucy.  In the fifth episode, Jacinda makes a bad decision with Sabine.  In the sixth episode, Jacinda gets mad at Henry again for spending time with Ivy.  

Edited December 3, 2017 by Camera One

[Mabinogia]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

In other words... is it equally casting and the writing?  Or one more than the other?

I love contemplating things like this. I know that the main reason I fell for this show was that Snow and Charming were just so freaking adorable. I believed their chemistry 100% even when the show wrote really boneheaded lines for them, Josh and Jinny really sold it with their charm. Regina is a terribly written villain half the time but Lana really gave it her all and made me enjoy watching Regina despite her rapist murderer tendancies. Robert gave Rumple enough charm to get me through a few season, but the writers totally destroyed the character for me to the point that not even Robert's charm and acting can get me to like him. 

I think the storyline they are going for this season has merit. I like the idea of Whook's true love being his daughter and that finding her took him away from his vengeful path. I like the idea of Ivy the unloved daughter living in the shadow of her "dead" sister and resenting it so much she learned evil magic to get back at her mother. I even don't hate the idea that some dumb kid read a book where someone who could be her mother meet some guy who she thinks is her fat....no, nothing can make the Lucy storyline anything but stupid. 

That said, though the bigger concept is fine, as usual, the detailed execution by the writers sucks. Unfortunately this time around the cast doesn't have that "pop" that the original cast had. Honestly, if the original story had been exactly the same only with these actors, if the actress playing Jacinda had been Emma, if the actor playing Henry had been Hook, if Victoria's actress had been Regina and Ivy had been Snow, I don't think this show would have lasted as long as it did. Actually, I could almost see Ivy as Snow. The actress has that pretty dark hair against the pale skin with the big ruby lips and the acting chops to carry a show. But other than that, no, I don't think OUAT would have been the success it is without the cast it had. And I think the writers are good at coming up with grand ideas but bad at the minute execution of said ideas. 

[Camera One]

55 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Honestly, if the original story had been exactly the same only with these actors, if the actress playing Jacinda had been Emma, if the actor playing Henry had been Hook, if Victoria's actress had been Regina and Ivy had been Snow, I don't think this show would have lasted as long as it did. 

Another possibility would be Jacinda playing Snow White, Adult Henry as Prince Charming, Victoria as Regina, Ivy as Emma, Lucy as the kid and Gothel playing a Rumple-type role.  Do you think that could have worked? 

It's a tough call.  A big part of the pilot hinged on the insta-chemistry between Snowing, and also the deliciously evil Regina waltzing in on the wedding.  The first Henry/Cinders scene in the first episode failed, even before she punched him, and Lady Tremaine/Victoria was rather flat from the beginning.  So maybe not...

Edited December 4, 2017 by Camera One

[Mabinogia]

I think anything that hinged on their being chemistry between the actors that play Jacinda and Henry would fail. Because this show is so much about true love the chemistry between couples is actually more important than pretty much anything in the casting of the couples.

Now, if Ivy had been Snow and Henry Charming that might have worked. They have a nice chemistry together which I think could build to a true love romance. I think the show really, really struck gold with Snow and Charming/Gin and Josh. 

[jhlipton]

On 11/30/2017 at 6:04 PM, Shanna Marie said:

2014 or 2015: Emma and Hook get married, it's happy endings for everyone in Storybrooke
2025 or so: Emma is pregnant

It's enough to give you a headache.

So Emma and Hook are married for 10 years(!!!) before they have a kid (and they're now in their early 40s, right?)

On 12/1/2017 at 2:34 PM, KingOfHearts said:

even Doctor Who's timeline is easier to follow than this.

Heck, Legends of Tomorrow's time-line ("We take a chainsaw to history!!!) is easier to follow!

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

is it equally casting and the writing?  Or one more than the other?

I agree with the others here -- both nature and nurture!

[Shanna Marie]

I think copying season one the way they have was a big mistake. In part, because it's really risky to invite comparisons to a far superior season unless you're doing something really special that either uses that structure and those expectations to give it all a huge twist or perhaps give a sense of destiny, that there are cycles of these events happening over and over again. And in part because of the way they're executing it, where they don't seem to be developing further than "it's like season one." Although they supposedly wanted this to be accessible to new viewers, I'm not sure that there's any resonance without knowing the references to season one since they aren't fleshing it out beyond the copy of season one. It seems like Lucy just went to find Henry because Henry went to find Emma. They haven't given us any other reason. Henry went to find Emma because she was his birth mother, and he had this strange storybook that told the stories in a different way than he was familiar with that told about Snow White's daughter who was the Savior. We still don't have any reason why Lucy thinks Henry is her father. She just does because that's they way it went in season one. We're supposed to be cheering for Ella/Jacinda and Henry because we cheered for Snow and Charming. After all, in both cases, she hit him soon after they met, so they're exactly alike!

One reason the Hook and Alice story is interesting may be that it's a story line that's not in any way a copy of anything in season one. I guess it helps that Hook wasn't in season one, so they couldn't copy his season one story. They had to actually write something new.

[KAOS Agent]

What if you put the past cast into the current storyline? Would Henry/Cinderella work if it had been Josh and Ginny playing them? Would Lana be able to make Tremaine work? Could Robert Carlyle make a gender swapped Gothel work? Does Lucy's character work if it were young Jared playing that role as Lucas? I don't really think so, but I think they might have made the characters more relatable than the current cast can. I think the original cast was better able to elevate the writing despite its vast shortcomings. However, I don't think that if they had tried this story using the original cast that it would have worked. 

[Camera One]

Yes, when the shoe is on the other foot (the original cast in the Season 7 roles), it is a sober reminder that the writing is not good.  All the things that seem to be similarities are actually a pale imitation lacking some essential ingredient.  Cinderella/Henry doesn't truly parallel Snow/Charming that well because viewers wouldn't bring with them any preconception of this brand new coupling.  In addition, the way Cinderella is written in both the flashback and the present-day makes her incredibly difficult to root for, even with a gifted actress.  Tremaine is not really Regina because her motivations are not defined, and also because Regina clearly did care for Henry in the pilot, which made her more than a one-dimensional villain.  As Shanna Marie mentioned, Lucy's reason to find Henry is weak and hasn't been developed since, whereas Henry's drive to find Emma was out of a sad attempt to find a loving parent.  And Adult Henry is no Emma because he has no vested interest in sticking around.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, KAOS Agent said:

I think the original cast was better able to elevate the writing despite its vast shortcomings. However, I don't think that if they had tried this story using the original cast that it would have worked. 

I agree. The original cast had the gift of alchemy for the most part, but even they couldn't spin the garbage writing of Season 6 into gold. So, I don't think having the original cast play the new charatcers would have succeeded. 

Also, whenever they've had guest stars in the Show before, they somehow clicked with the original cast, for the most part (again except for Season 6). This Season, there are too many cast changes, but without the writing to back up the changes. So, the actors are all floundering, and some of them seem to be trying to rely on social media to create a connection with each other and the viewers. But die-hard viewers are not going to fall in love with new cast members en masse, especially when many of our favs have been replaced. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

29 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

So Emma and Hook are married for 10 years(!!!) before they have a kid (and they're now in their early 40s, right?)

That's the way it looks if we take the timeline at face value and there aren't any time travel or time passage shenanigans. That's why it's annoying that they didn't clarify, because the passage of time has meaning. A couple married for 10 years, in their early 40s, who apparently hasn't yet had a baby and is finally expecting probably has had something going on in the meantime -- infertility issues, miscarriages, etc. If they hadn't been sure about having a baby and waited, they still probably would have started trying a few years earlier. That would explain the way they were acting, I guess, with him wanting her to stay at home and rest instead of rushing to Henry's rescue, and why Regina was acting like they were keeping a deep, dark secret from Henry and they were worried that Henry would want to come home if he knew. If they've had trouble either conceiving or bringing a baby to term and there are risks because of Emma's age (of course, it didn't seem to cross Henry's mind to come home, and it doesn't seem to have occurred to him that there might have been problems). Not that they seem to have considered this.

It's an entirely different story if Henry was only gone months from the Jones's perspective, and they've only been married a few years.

[Camera One]

I agree... the timeline makes a big difference for viewers who care about them.

22 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

If they've had trouble either conceiving or bringing a baby to term and there are risks because of Emma's age (of course, it didn't seem to cross Henry's mind to come home, and it doesn't seem to have occurred to him that there might have been problems). Not that they seem to have considered this.

It seemed like he couldn't care less.  Again, they should have used the opportunity to develop Adult Henry's character, which is rather nebulous and skin-deep at the moment.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Camera One

[tennisgurl]

Sadly, I think that even if you put the first season cast into the places of the newbies, I still dont think it would be a really good season. It would probably be better with the better casting choices, but the crappy writing choices (this lame curse that almost everyone knows about already, Murderella, Lucy being only mildly interested in getting her parents together, etc.) couldn't be saved by even the greatest cast ever assembled. The first season certainly had writing problems as well (things that would become BIG problems later were already there from the beginning, just not as overwhelmingly) but had a strong main plot, good characterization, and a mysterious but whimsical atmosphere that let me forgive it a lot more. Now all of that is gone. 

[Camera One]

I was thinking about Rumple this season, and other than Episode 4, what has he done?  In the old show, he often appeared in the flashbacks but there hasn't been Imp Rumple and he only showed up in one other flashback in a short chat with Regina.  I suppose The Guardian stuff will be important eventually, but it has hardly been mentioned.  I don't see any justification for why he needed to be in Season 7.

Whook is the one who seems to be used the fullest, with something new that the original Hook didn't get to explore, and a past that ties in with the Tremaine plot.  

Regina's role is boring, but at least her presence is justified as a supporting "mothering" player for both Henry and Jacinda, and a pawn for one of the villains (Ivy).

One has to wonder how they would have found room for Emma, if Jennifer Morrison had agreed to stay.  I suppose the Whook storyline would have been gone, if that had been the case.

[superloislane]

On 01/12/2017 at 2:04 AM, Shanna Marie said:

2025 or so: Henry meets Ella, Rumple shows up in that world after Belle's death. Regina decides to stay with Henry, Wish Hook deages himself and stays with Henry, they run into 20-something Alice. Emma is pregnant

Even if we don't take any timey-wimeyness into consideration, I don't think it has to be 2025. I have only seen the second episode so forgive me if they have said things about the timeline that I'm not aware of, but I assumed Henry is about 28 right now (because Emma was 28 and that seems to be their number) or maybe 30. That means that if Emma and Hook got married in 2015/2016 and Henry left when he was 18 in 2019, it could have only been about a year or two since they'd seen him and Emma is pregnant in 2020/2021 which would make Emma around 38 (Jennifer Morrison's real age!) and Emma and Hook could have been married for about 5 years which is a normal enough time to wait before having a baby especially in a town like Storybrooke. It also makes their reaction to adult Henry more realistic if it's only been about a year or two since they'd seen him instead of about 6 years, and if we believe that Abby Ross aged into Jennifer Morrison in about 2 years, I think we can believe that Jared Gilmore aged into Andrew West in 2 years.

[superloislane]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

One has to wonder how they would have found room for Emma, if Jennifer Morrison had agreed to stay.  I suppose the Whook storyline would have been gone, if that had been the case.

I figure maybe they would have had the same type of story but both Emma and Hook are separated from each other and their daughter. I'm guessing Emma would have had some relationship with Henry too but I'm wondering what they would have Emma doing in Seattle. If Hook is a cop is Emma also a cop or is that too similar to her real persona?

[Rumsy4]

I think Emma would’ve been in a coma and fake-married to some rando. Rogers is drawn to her because he’s the one who found her. One day, he reads Henry’s book to her and she wakes up. She could be a bail bonds-woman again and have to cooperate with Officer Rogers (Hook Prime) on cases. 

[daxx]

5 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I think Emma would’ve been in a coma and fake-married to some rando. Rogers is drawn to her because he’s the one who found her. One day, he reads Henry’s book to her and she wakes up. She could be a bail bonds-woman again and have to cooperate with Officer Rogers (Hook Prime) on cases. 

Or she’s a petty criminal he keeps catching.

[superloislane]

42 minutes ago, daxx said:

Or she’s a petty criminal he keeps catching.

That might be it! They love talking about how different Roni is (she wears jeans and boots now wow!) and Rumple and Hook are cops so they might like to have Emma be a criminal. Or would they have her be the total opposite of what she is and she now wears pantsuits and is a business woman (or Mayor...)?

[Mabinogia]

I wonder, if Jen had stayed, if the "love story" focus would have been Emma and Hook instead of Henry and Murderella. The Alice is Hooks daughter would have been scratched, or Alive would be Emma and Hooks daughter that they are searching for together. Emma would either work for Tremaine or Roni, or been the secretary at the police station. They wouldn't have her do anything else because then they'd need to build a new set. lol Or have her working with Murderella. UGH. Ideally they'd get rid of Murderella all together, but with Tremaine so ingrained in the storyline I guess that wouldn't happen.

[Camera One]

I think Henry and Murderella would still have been the new central love story.

Maybe Emma would have replaced Alice.  She's the criminal informant and the missing woman that Hook is truly looking for.

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, superloislane said:

Even if we don't take any timey-wimeyness into consideration, I don't think it has to be 2025. I have only seen the second episode so forgive me if they have said things about the timeline that I'm not aware of, but I assumed Henry is about 28 right now (because Emma was 28 and that seems to be their number) or maybe 30.

There have been interviews saying it's been ten years. Not canon on screen, though, so it's all just a guess since they've given us so little on screen. When they had Jen playing 17-year-old Emma, they changed her appearance to indicate that she was younger -- glasses, different hair and makeup, different wardrobe. While it's possible that we're meant to assume that flashback Henry is only about 20 and that only a couple of years have passed since he left town, they've done absolutely nothing to indicate any difference in age between the flashbacks and the present. Now that they've thrown in a character who's Lucy's father in Hyperion Heights and who's also present in the flashbacks, we don't even know for sure if Henry is Lucy's father, if maybe Ella already had her and Henry became her stepdad when he married Ella, so we don't have those ten years passing. But then that might mean that the time did pass before Hook and Emma saw Henry again, because they wouldn't have cast an actor in his 30s to play a 20-year-old character.

And that's what we're complaining about, that they've left it all so vague that there are vastly different potential interpretations that have vastly different implications, and if you try to put it all in a timeline, it makes no sense -- like Henry left home after 2017, but they're in 2017, and then there's Alice, who should be getting close to 40 except she's not, and have 10 or so years really gone by since the flashbacks? We've got a different story if Hook and Emma have only been married about five years when they see Henry again and she's pregnant than if they've been married ten years at that time, but we don't know which is the case. We've got a vastly different story if Ella already had a kid with Henry's friend or if Lucy is actually Henry and Ella's daughter and ten years have passed.

45 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Ideally they'd get rid of Murderella all together, but with Tremaine so ingrained in the storyline I guess that wouldn't happen.

I don't think it would happen because they wanted to build the story around Henry. Even if Jen had still been around, they wanted to reboot, so the returning cast are supporting characters for their main story -- until the ratings came in and they maybe switched gears (possibly at the network's insistence). The difference now is that there is no Emma, so they don't have the option of switching their focus to another couple. It'll be interesting to see if things shift after the holidays, when we're getting episodes that were written after the first few episodes aired. Will they cling to their vision, insisting they're right, or will they react to the low ratings and pretty universal dislike of Murderella and her relationship with Henry?

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Will they cling to their vision, insisting they're right, or will they react to the low ratings and pretty universal dislike of Murderella and her relationship with Henry?

It could go either way. It could depend on whether abc cares enough to step in. I can see A&E digging their heels in and sticking to their original plan.

[Mabinogia]

I agree ABC is going to have to force a change. A&E won't do it. They are oblivious to what is going on I think. They probably think their story is so advanced that we, the idiot audience, need time to catch up and once we do we will LOVE it. I mean, they decided to take one of the least liked characters, Henry, and center a show around him and an unknown quantity (Murderella) that has completely bombed. But not only did they take Henry, the changed him completely. So we don't even had the nostalgia of it being Jared. And they took the two main villains, Regina and Rumple, but they are not villains, they are basically window dressing and threw in two...three...new villains whose motives are pretty unclear. I get the impression A&E think they are geniuses for repeating old storylines. Now, if they had done it in a way someone upthread suggested, where it showed how life really does repeat itself, that could have been interesting, but it really just feels like they don't have any other ideas so they are using what worked in the past.

I think, beyond an obvious casting mishap, the big mistakes they are making this season are 1) recycling old storylines and scenes 2) making too many characters aware they are cursed too fast and 3) making Hyperion Heights feel so small. Storybrook had a sense of scope, it was an entire town full of people. HH feels like it is literally just our main characters and a handful of extras. It feels so small and fake. This season also lacks a sense of wonder. HH is pretty bleak.

[Souris]

44 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I agree ABC is going to have to force a change. A&E won't do it. They are oblivious to what is going on I think. They probably think their story is so advanced that we, the idiot audience, need time to catch up and once we do we will LOVE it.

I'm skeptical that ABC cares enough about the show anymore to step in. If anybody would, it would be Disney hoping for future cross-promotion, but I have my doubts about that, too.

But, yeah, A&E are too far up their own rear ends to acknowledge that what they're turning out isn't brilliant.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Souris said:

I'm skeptical that ABC cares enough about the show anymore to step in. If anybody would, it would be Disney hoping for future cross-promotion, but I have my doubts about that, too.

I'm thinking they just want it to die and go away at this point. It's not making Disney characters look any good. I mean, they're going to make beloved Rapunzel into hated Lady Tremaine! I'm guessing they are all in the "let's let the contract end and then pull the plug" camp now.

[PixiePaws1]

It wouldn't surprise me if the storyline they pitched to JMo for s7 was the absolute final straw for her and the reason she only agreed to one ep and not several....and likely that one ep had a restriction on it such as 'don't mess with the happy beginning'. 

After the vomit and rage inducing turn of having spineless Emma grovel at Regina's feet in Wish World...I had horror filled visions of HH cursed Emma as the submissive, put upon girlfriend of Regina's cursed HH persona. 

[Rumsy4]

29 minutes ago, PixiePaws1 said:

I had horror filled visions of HH cursed Emma as the submissive, put upon girlfriend of Regina's cursed HH persona. 

I would bet Emma's HH persona would have been in some way either subservient or beholden to Roni. 

[Kktjones]

18 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I would bet Emma's HH persona would have been in some way either subservient or beholden to Roni. 

Yep. That's why as much as I love Emma and CaptainSwan, I am actually glad JMo decided to leave. Season 6 was SO bad for her character and her relationship with Hook (the wedding notwithstanding), that I can only imagine it getting even worse in Season 7. For some reason I'm thinking of her in the Season 1 Mary Margaret role - timid, afraid to speak up for herself, pining over a man (Hook) who is married to someone else, etc. It would have been extremely painful with little chance for a satisfying payoff after the curse is broken.

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, PixiePaws1 said:

It wouldn't surprise me if the storyline they pitched to JMo for s7 was the absolute final straw for her and the reason she only agreed to one ep and not several....and likely that one ep had a restriction on it such as 'don't mess with the happy beginning'. 

I donno if A&E really thought JMo would sign on for another season (or more) after the way Emma was treated in S6. Maybe they hadn't planned on retaining JMo anyway. Officially, JMo only announced the fact that she wouldn't be signing on late Spring, IIRC. But the writers were already sidelining Emma majorly in 6B, and focusing on the charatcers returning for the reboot. But their current show of pique against JMo/Emma says otherwise. We'll never know. 

[Camera One]

I was thinking maybe they would have Rogers having a romance with Eloise Gardner aka Mother Gothel, thinking that she's the blond woman he's looking for, but Emma is actually Swanson, the timid barkeep at Roni's.  

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

I was thinking maybe they would have Rogers having a romance with Eloise Gardner aka Mother Gothel, thinking that she's the blond woman he's looking for, but Emma is actually Swanson, the timid barkeep at Roni's.  

So it would be as if Abigail had made a rape baby with Charming back in the Enchanted Forest.

[Camera One]

In the scenario I was thinking Jennifer Morrison would have replaced Alice, so no baby.

I'm wondering if they plan to have Eloise seducing Whook in Hyperion Heights later this season.

There are multiple people tweeting Adam on Twitter to kill/get rid of Whook and the "rape baby", and to bring on Real Hook with the CS child.  Do they seriously think that's going to be satisfying without Emma on the show?  

Edited December 5, 2017 by Camera One

[jhlipton]

On 12/3/2017 at 5:26 PM, KAOS Agent said:

What if you put the past cast into the current storyline? Would Henry/Cinderella work if it had been Josh and Ginny playing them? Would Lana be able to make Tremaine work? Could Robert Carlyle make a gender swapped Gothel work? Does Lucy's character work if it were young Jared playing that role as Lucas?

I think not.  We've seen the Original Recipe characters deal with lame plots, and they make them better, but still lame.  There's only so much even a truly gifted actor can do [coughArthurcough]...

14 hours ago, daxx said:

Or she’s a petty criminal he keeps catching.

Selina, is that you?

[daxx]

17 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

I think not.  We've seen the Original Recipe characters deal with lame plots, and they make them better, but still lame.  There's only so much even a truly gifted actor can do [coughArthurcough]...

Selina, is that you?

Having her curse name be Selina would be awesome. lol

[Souris]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

There are multiple people tweeting Adam on Twitter to kill/get rid of Whook and the "rape baby", and to bring on Real Hook with the CS child.  Do they seriously think that's going to be satisfying without Emma on the show?  

Ugh, WTF? Not to mention it would destroy the CS happy ending.

[Camera One]

5 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's frustrating to me that the Wish Realm and Alternate Forest are connected outside of Henry. WHook had already been there years before. So out of the infinite multiverse, with infinite possibilities, how the heck did WHook just happened upon the same realm Henry did? 

There's also the question of the multiple Wonderlands.  So is Alternate Forest closer to Alternate Wonderland, and that's why Alice, Jacinda's mother and Ivy automatically went to that one, and not to the other Wonderland?  Adam confirmed on Twitter that it isn't the same Wonderland with Will, the Red Queen, Cyrus, Cora, etc.

So if someone used a Hat, would the Alternate realms be in the same room with the doors?  Or would there be a different set of doors for each Alternate?  But then, how did Whook so easily get to Alternate Forest?  Real Hook and Emma used a simple bean to get back to Storybrooke.  Was there a Wish Wonderland created as well?

Edited December 8, 2017 by Camera One

[Noneofyourbusiness]

They haven't expanded on this in the show yet, but they said in interviews that the New Enchanted Forest in a different Author's book. So I guess the New Wonderland is in that book, too, and each has its own room of doors.

I'm glad Adam finally cleared that up. I asked him the same question on Twitter weeks ago and it wasn't answered.

[Camera One]

A&E's new Author book explanation doesn't make sense to me, in terms of the Alternate Forest and other Alternate worlds.  It was easy for Whook to travel there in the flashback.  It was easy for the Storybrookers to travel there in Episode 2.  It was easy for Rumple to travel there after Belle was gone.  If each Author is confined to their own "world", then why was Henry in the Alternate Forest writing down stories?  When Jared Henry rode off into the ring, did he immediate go to an Alternate World?  Or did he start off in the Regular Enchanted Forest?  '

So this season has major issues with time AND space.  This is quite a multidimensional series.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Camera One