A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[andromeda331]

30 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

We were all Belle when it came to Rumbelle. We always kept hoping in spite of all the evidence that Belle would one day wake up and smell the roses and leave Rumple for good. I think I only gave Belle up completely by the end of 6A. I don't even like her now. Rumple was her project, and she actively chose her life and death with Rumple, even over spending her life at a normal pace with her son.

Which reminds me--does reformed Rumple care about Gidiot now?

For me it was 4B with Belle all upset the Rumple might die because of his own blackened heart. He wasn't some innocent or misunderstood person. He was evil for centuries. He had endless chances to change and always chose not too. That part began to bug me about Belle. Rumple always chose not to change. She gave him chances and he always chose not too. Now he was dying by his own fault. Also, when she stood there when people came to Rumple for help and he turned them down. After she knew what he did in 4A, after she knew he planned to take her and Henry and leave everyone to die. 6A Belle was almost harder because she left Rumple, and no matter what she said or did. You knew it wasn't going to last. She was going to go back to Rumple. The end of 4A should have been the end of Belle and Rumple. She knew he lied to her about the dagger, she knew he was lying about everything, taking her away with Henry and leaving everyone to die. There really should have been no coming back from that. Rumple was never going to change. He didn't want too.      

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

For me it was 4B with Belle all upset the Rumple might die because of his own blackened heart. He wasn't some innocent or misunderstood person. He was evil for centuries.

What irks me is that Belle saw Rumple's victims being killed and tortured firsthand, yet gave him nothing but a slap on the wrist each time. 

[Rumsy4]

30 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

What irks me is that Belle saw Rumple's victims being killed and tortured firsthand, yet gave him nothing but a slap on the wrist each time. 

But he has a good heeeaaaaart. 

Belle is the poster-child of the abused wife who keeps going back to her abuser. What a legacy to leave for the Show's take on Beauty and the Beast! 

[Mabinogia]

15 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

The writers fell in love with Regina and Rumple, and ended up using all the other charatcers as plot devices in order to make those two more sympathetic. A&E don't seem to realize that they have ended up destroying their own legacy over the course of the series because of this.

They ruined the two characters they fell in love with. Regina and Rumple were both great villains in season one.

Regina's redemption could have been a fascinating story had it been done slowly and had the other characters not embraced her so easily and quickly. But they turned Snow et al into Regina's fan club and ruined her and them. 

Rumple and Belle's relationship is what ruined him. Because Rumple was the greatest big bad the show has ever had and he should have stayed that way. But they made him some romantic hero so he can't be truly bad, but he's their best villain so they can't keep him redeemed. It makes Belle look like a doormat and it makes Rumple look like an abusive asshole. 

They took two strong characters played by actors who completely inhabited their characters and ruined them by turning their storylines into wish fulfillment fanfiction.

34 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

But he has a good heeeaaaaart. 

I really wish Rumpbelle's storyline had actually been about how, no matter how much you try, some people are, in fact, irredeemable. Because Rumple is irredeemable and no matter how much fanfic they write into the show about his "good heart" he is a selfish, evil, conniving villain and he should have remained that way. I would like their storyline better if he were, in fact, admittedly manipulating her rather than some pathetic good hearted man who can't help that he's an abusive jerk. 

There is no romantic storyline more damaging that "an abusive, cruel man just needs the love of a good woman who is willing to take his abuse until he changes". 

[Camera One]

Then they felt the need to overcompensate by manipulating the viewers' emotions and using the music from "Beauty and the Beast" twice.  To me, that was a forced and insulting attempt to make us see them as Beauty and the Beast.  They didn't show Snowing once with the music of "One Song" in the background, even though that would have been similar.  The only time I remember them using a Disney tune was with Potion Snow in Season 1, played for laughs.

Rumple was even willing to condemn entire realms to death and destruction by refusing to help Henry as late as DURING the Season 6 finale, and yet he deserved a happy ending with Gideon and Belle?  That's why "Beauty" evoked zero emotions in me except anger and disbelief.  The final supper scene should have Henry exposing Rumple for what he did and everyone rushing over to strangle him to death. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Then they felt the need to overcompensate by manipulating the viewers' emotions and using the music from "Beauty and the Beast" twice.  To me, that was a forced and insulting attempt to make us see them as Beauty and the Beast.  They didn't show Snowing once with the music of "One Song" in the background, even though that would have been similar.  The only time I remember them using a Disney tune was with Potion Snow in Season 1, played for laughs.

Don't forget the jazz version of "Cruella DeVil", which I thought actually worked. Then there was Ursula singing the sea chantey from The Little Mermaid. The writers used a lot of Disney music in S4 for some reason. "Beauty and the Beast" was heavy-handed and could have been used ironically to showcase what the couple isn't, but the writers thought it was just the most romantic thing to ever hit the small screen.

[Camera One]

17 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Don't forget the jazz version of "Cruella DeVil", which I thought actually worked. Then there was Ursula singing the sea chantey from The Little Mermaid. 

Ah, yes.  I forgot those two.  I think those two were good uses.  The Beauty and the Beast was inappropriate because the "Once" versions were so twisted beyond recognition that it was dishonest to use that love song to evoke emotions in viewers (the intended emotion being awwwwww).  It would be like "You Can Fly!" playing in the background in 3A with Peter Pan, or "I See The Light" playing with Lady Tremaine in Season 7.  

[tennisgurl]

By the end, Belle and Rumple had some of the least in common with their fictional counterparts of any of the main characters on the show. Belle was mostly just Rumples wife and a massive doormat (Disney Belle would never have taken his shit) and Rumple has basically nothing to do with The Beast at all. I mean, even from the beginning, their story was extremely different from the Disney version they kept stealing iconic imagery from, but at least it had some similarities, and worked alright as a variation, if not the full on remake other characters got, but by the end, they were a disgrace to the characters they were pretending to be. 

Of course, the character that ended up being literally nothing like the character they were supposed to be was Robin Hood, who should have been roguish and charming, with an anti-authoritarianism attitude and a devil my care personality. Instead, while we got a bit of that at first, he was soon just Regina's cheerleader who cheated on his recently resurrected wife with her murderer (who was also a MUCH worse tyrant than Prince John even), and then when the aforementioned wife died (and no one cared), he just became Regina's lapdog and consolation prize for her to fret about and get kisses from, until he died to further Regina's angst. He could have been Regina's favorite part of shoes by the end, with the amount of characterization he got. Weirdly, Hook ended up having a more Robin Hood like personality, after he became a good guy, than Robin ended up having!

[tri4335]

One of A & E's biggest mistakes was bringing Belle to present time. She should've remained in flashbacks but had died in the past. We could've seen the love but then see without her Rumple was off the rails. Instead they brought her forward and proceeded to ruin her character.  My other wish was that Neal grabbed her hand and killed her (or they could've made it that she was in the vault and Rumple would need to free her by redemption and again the flashbacks would show the love but she wouldn't need to make excuses for current behavior).  I felt that would've been meaty work for MRJ and RC for Rumple to kill Neal's mother and Neal to have killed Belle and actually have these acts acknowledged.  I know that everyone was like you can't kill a Disney Princess but what A & E did was so so so much WORSE!

Edited February 26, 2018 by tri4335
fixed typo

[Rumsy4]

14 minutes ago, tri4335 said:

I felt that would've been meaty work for MRJ and RC for Rumple to kill Neal's mother and Neal to have killed Belle and actually have these acts acknowledged.

Interesting idea. For example, Zelena could have tricked Neal into using Belle to resurrect his father. As for acknowledging Milah's murder--that's a joke. My original theory on the 3B Dark Curse was for Zelena to have forced Rumple at Dagger-point to sacrifice Neal and cast the Dark Curse. That would have been such a "wickedly" cruel irony, and Zelena would then have been actually responsible for Bagel's death.

Either Rumple ought never to have been resurrected in 3B, or Belle and Neal should both have been killed off. Henry could be a lingering motivation for Rumple to stay good for a while and yet be tempted by power. Without Neal and Belle, Rumple falling back into villainy is more believable than the idea that Rumbelle was somehow True Love, and yet Rumple kept betraying and abusing her. 

[Camera One]

A&E needed someone to draw Rumple back to humanity every once in a while since he's supposed to be so complex, and that thankless role was Belle's job on the show.  Given Neal died, it wasn't fully believable that Rumple couldn't care less about Henry.  They started to build a bond between them in "Manhattan" and even a little in when Henry worked in his shop, but since then, they might as be unrelated.  

[KingOfHearts]

With the show back in 5 days, this hiatus didn't feel very long to me. It's probably due to the total lack of anticipation. The hiatus that felt the longest for me was 3A/3B. It was during that break that I began watching the show on Netflix and iTunes. I was really excited for the 3B premiere, not only because the setup was phenomenal, but because I hadn't watched live before. That was when I lurked on TWOP before it closed. I would have joined y'all sooner there if they hadn't closed off new accounts, lol. I can't think of any other hiatus that was particularly agonizing to wait through.

I know a lot of people were intrigued by the Dark Swan cliffhanger, but I wasn't entranced by it at all. It didn't change the status quo like A&E pleaded it did.

Edited February 26, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I was more dreading the Dark Swan arc (5A), since I could only imagine the ways in which they would try to make Emma as evil as Rumple and Regina.  All things considered, they thankfully didn't go that far (except equating Emma with Cora, which was so ridiculous it was hard to take it seriously).  I was also dreading the 2B arc, since I didn't like the idea of Cora or Hook coming to Storybrooke.  I wasn't excited about the 3A arc because I wasn't a huge fan of Peter Pan.  I wasn't excited about the 4A arc since I didn't like the "Frozen" movie that much (though ironically, this show made me like the Frozen movie more).  I wasn't excited about the 4B arc because... well, that one doesn't even need to be explained.  

So I too anticipated the 3B arc the most because there was just so much potential.  The only part of the cliffhanger I didn't like was Hook showing up at Emma's door, but I was excited to see Emma and Henry's new life in NYC.  I was excited to find out how she would remember her past, and get back to her parents.  The thought that Snowing, Granny, the Dwarves, Blue, etc. having to adjust back to life in the Enchanted Forest also intrigued me.  And then all our dreams were shattered.  The End.

[tri4335]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

A&E needed someone to draw Rumple back to humanity every once in a while since he's supposed to be so complex, and that thankless role was Belle's job on the show.  Given Neal died, it wasn't fully believable that Rumple couldn't care less about Henry.  They started to build a bond between them in "Manhattan" and even a little in when Henry worked in his shop, but since then, they might as be unrelated.  

Yes it was Belle's job but I feel in better writers' hands this could've been done in flashbacks versus in the present. At the end of the day, all incompetency is on A & E and not on any of the actors.

[scarynikki12]

I liked the idea of Dark Swan more than the execution.  When Emma became the Dark One I saw it as another stop on her hero's journey.  Taking a trip to the underworld is a classic, and important, part of said journey and no one can be called hero without it.  It doesn't have to be a literal trip like in ancient epics and a metaphor usually works better.  Harry Potter had King's Cross and Emma Swan became the Dark One.  In all honesty, nearly everything Emma went through in Camelot (before turning Hook) works for her metaphorical underworld journey.  The trip to the underworld is about the hero learning something very important, either about themselves or their mission.  Emma accepted that she isn't nothing.  And that proclamation is still my favorite Emma moment of the series.  But, because this is Once, it didn't last and Hook was turned, another Curse was cast, and Emma's Storybrook portion of the metaphor fell apart.  Then they had everyone literally go to the Underworld so that Regina could also check that off on her list and remind us that she was overtaking Emma's fairytale. 

And I absolutely enjoyed Emma tricking Henry for his tears.  I liked that bit of moral ambiguity and it served the little brat right for holding her to a higher standard than Regina or Rumpel. 

[Richard]

2 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I liked the idea of Dark Swan more than the execution. 

The same could be said for every story the show has told. 

[Rumsy4]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

And then all our dreams were shattered.  The End.

After Season 1, 3A was a brief flicker of real hope in a sea of bleakness. I think many of us have lasted this long solely because of the potential the Neverland arc held. 

5 hours ago, tri4335 said:

At the end of the day, all incompetency is on A & E and not on any of the actors.

Oh I agree. And after a while some of them like Ginny and to a large extent, Bobby, gave up even trying. Some of the lines they gave Mary Margaret were so bad, I can’t blame her one bit. As for having Bobby repeat the same one dang line of dialogue for a whole arc...

Edited February 26, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Taking discussion about Ginny and Snow from Media thread.

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

But even so, the scenes she did get were poorly written. A&E didn't utilize her time at all.

To me, this is the key. 

Despite Ginny's maternity leaves, I pretty much place the blame fully on A&E for destroying Snow as a character.  Time and time again, they chose to use Ginny in a way which prevented the actress from playing the emotional core of the character. 

In 3B, Snow had limited screentime, but she still had quite a bit considering she was pregnant.  They chose to use her scenes to comfort Regina over losing Henry and being an idiot drinking orange juice with the lady wearing the giant emerald broach instead of having the talented actress act out her grief over losing Emma again, or over seeing her former kingdom in such disarray, or seeing Knifington Palace for the first time since her father died and since learning her mother was murdered. 

Ginny said one of her favorite scenes in whole series was the "Lost Girl" scene with Emma, so I assume it's not lost on her that she never had a solo scene with Emma of that length in the next 3.5 seasons.  A&E chose to use Snow for one-off fillers or stuff that went nowhere, like with The Count of Monte Cristo in 6A, or Lancelot in 5A, or Hercules in 5B. 

A lot her screentime was standing around in the background doing nothing or providing exposition. 

In 5A, when Emma was Dark Swan in Storybrooke, A&E chose not to give a single solo scene with either Snow or David with Dark Emma.  It's unfathomable.

Just for fun, let's look at some of the lines Snow got to deliver in an episode from 5A.

"Oh no."

"I am so not dressed for this."

"Your Majesty."

"Our daughter, Emma, was... Is the Dark One.  She cast the Curse."

"Emma.  She's here in Storybrooke."

"Defeat isn't exactly what we had in mind."

"What is it?"

"Regina!"

"She obviously brought them here for a reason."

"Regina!  You okay?"

"She needs help."

"You have to get checked out."

"We won't let anything happen to him, but you need to let someone look at you."

"Now, if he gets fussy, he probably just needs to be changed."

Edited February 27, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

The discussion about Rumple and Belle reminded me of a remark made in one of these threads (I couldn’t find when I went looking for it) a few days ago about how in season one, Rumple seemed more redeemable than Regina. That was the way I felt when I rewatched season one last summer. It wasn’t even about the evils they did in the past. It was their Storybrooke behavior.

Regina became irredeemable to me with the stuff she pulled with Henry in season one. Not just the gaslighting, but specifically when she set up the situation to get Emma to say she didn’t believe him at exactly the time she knew Henry would be there. She was deliberately hurting her child in order to score points against Emma. If there’s a continuum of bad deeds, on one end there’s striking back at someone who hurt you, then there’s harming those who side with your enemies, then there’s not caring about collateral damage, and then on the far other end is hurting people you supposedly love in the name of your revenge. She talked a good show about having soothed every fever and changed every diaper, but she was willing to break her son’s heart to get a win. And then she did it again with Hansel and Gretel, sending them to almost certain death so that Henry would see Emma as a failure. And then there was ordering Kathryn’s death, even though Kathryn thought she and Regina were friends, so she could frame Snow for murder.

Meanwhile, season one Gold was kind of a Scrooge character, being all grumpy as he went around collecting rents, but he was helping Emma against Regina, which made it look like there was hope for him. Probably the worst thing season one Gold did was beat Moe, and that was kind of on Regina, since she’d told Rumple that Moe had killed Belle. Gold seemed like someone who could be redeemed if he could learn to love and put love ahead of power. We saw him reject Belle to keep power, but then learned why he felt he needed power, and that made his actions seem more sympathetic.

It’s interesting, both Rumple and Regina chose power over love — him letting Bae go rather than lose his power and her being willing to hurt Henry in order to maintain her control through the curse. But his was a split-second moment of panic that he instantly regretted and knew was wrong, while hers was a deliberate plan that she rejoiced in and considered a win.

Of course, everything changed after season one.

I think the problem with the Rumple and Belle relationship is that she was always written like she was dealing with season one Rumple. At that time, I think you might have believed he had a good heart and could be saved with love (but him learning to love others, not through the love of others, other than them creating a safe space for him to allow himself to love). Unfortunately, we then saw him hiding things from Belle, trying to isolate her from her father, we learned he murdered his wife, he gave Belle the fake dagger, did all the hat stuff, and generally deceived her, but she was still acting like he was the person we saw in season one. You'd think that after her mantra about his good heart, seeing that his heart was actually a charred bit of coal might have been a wake-up call.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Taking discussion about Ginny and Snow from Media thread.

To me, this is the key. 

Despite Ginny's maternity leaves, I pretty much place the blame fully on A&E for destroying Snow as a character.  Time and time again, they chose to use Ginny in a way which prevented the actress from playing the emotional core of the character. 

...

A lot her screentime was standing around in the background doing nothing or providing exposition. 

...

Just for fun, let's look at some of the lines Snow got to deliver in an episode from 5A.

"Oh no."

"I am so not dressed for this."

"Your Majesty."

"Our daughter, Emma, was... Is the Dark One.  She cast the Curse."

"Emma.  She's here in Storybrooke."

"Defeat isn't exactly what we had in mind."

"What is it?"

"Regina!"

"She obviously brought them here for a reason."

"Regina!  You okay?"

"She needs help."

"You have to get checked out."

"We won't let anything happen to him, but you need to let someone look at you."

"Now, if he gets fussy, he probably just needs to be changed."

 

Awful! 

I might give A&E the benefit of the doubt if they had actually given Snow/MM a bare minimum of a decent storyline. Saying Ginny probably asked for reduced screen-time is like saying she chose to get pregnant so she shouldn't complain about her crappy lines. It's like A&E immediately gave up on Ginny/Snow just because she got pregnant. This is not the first or last time women in Television have been penalized one way or the other for getting pregnant during a Show's run. OTOH there have been other shows and showrunners that have accommodated cast pregnancies without permanently shunting them to the sidelines. 

If it was a not too central character, I would understand or maybe just shrug it off. It would not be worth it for the writes to do too much to accommodate a peripheral character. But this was Snow White. Even the frumpy clothes the costume team started dressing Ginny in stinks of sexism, or at the very least, a lack of professionalism and care. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Unpopular opinion: I never really clamored to see more Charming family antics or to make the bond between Emma and her parents the main focus. To be honest, I would have preferred better quality writing for Regina, Rumple, Zelena, et al. I've never felt a real connection with the Charmings or found them that entertaining. I like Mary Margaret and Emma well enough in S1, but after the curse broke I lost most of my interest in them. I do agree that their storylines got the shaft and there's blatant favoritism at play. I feel sorry for their fans. At its heart, OUAT is an ensemble show and each character deserves their day in the sun. I would rather see a balance of everybody than the "Charmings show" or the "Regina show". When it comes to people who complain about too much Captain Swan or too much Regina/Rumple, I can see both sides of the argument. Captain Swan is a great couple but sometimes I think, under review, their flaws can get ignored. We already know what Regina and Rumple's problems are.

Quote

I think the problem with the Rumple and Belle relationship is that she was always written like she was dealing with season one Rumple. At that time, I think you might have believed he had a good heart and could be saved with love (but him learning to love others, not through the love of others, other than them creating a safe space for him to allow himself to love). Unfortunately, we then saw him hiding things from Belle, trying to isolate her from her father, we learned he murdered his wife, he gave Belle the fake dagger, did all the hat stuff, and generally deceived her, but she was still acting like he was the person we saw in season one. You'd think that after her mantra about his good heart, seeing that his heart was actually a charred bit of coal might have been a wake-up call.

The reason S1 Rumpbelle works is because we were under the impression Rumple's darkness was tied to the Dark One curse. Belle seemed to believe that too, since she thought a TLK would fix him. It was later retconned in later seasons that Rumple was always a bad person, even without magic. Now with the Guardian nonsense, it makes the TLK even more pointless.

Edited February 27, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[PixiePaws1]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

Awful! 

I might give A&E the benefit of the doubt if they had actually given Snow/MM a bare minimum of a decent storyline. Saying Ginny probably asked for reduced screen-time is like saying she chose to get pregnant so she shouldn't complain about her crappy lines. It's like A&E immediately gave up on Ginny/Snow just because she got pregnant. This is not the first or last time women in Television have been penalized one way or the other for getting pregnant during a Show's run. OTOH there have been other shows and showrunners that have accommodated cast pregnancies without permanently shunting them to the sidelines. 

If it was a not too central character, I would understand or maybe just shrug it off. It would not be worth it for the writes to do too much to accommodate a peripheral character. But this was Snow White. Even the frumpy clothes the costume team started dressing Ginny in stinks of sexism, or at the very least, a lack of professionalism and care. 

Look at the way JAG dealt with Catherine Bell's pregnancy....she was front and centre still with meaty storylines. 

[Camera One]

Quote

Unpopular opinion: I never really clamored to see more Charming family antics or to make the bond between Emma and her parents the main focus. To be honest, I would have preferred better quality writing for Regina, Rumple, Zelena, et al. I've never felt a real connection with the Charmings or found them that entertaining. I like Mary Margaret and Emma well enough in S1, but after the curse broke I lost most of my interest in them. I do agree that their storylines got the shaft and there's blatant favoritism at play. I feel sorry for their fans. At its heart, OUAT is an ensemble show and each character deserves their day in the sun. I would rather see a balance of everybody than the "Charmings show" or the "Regina show". When it comes to people who complain about too much Captain Swan or too much Regina/Rumple, I can see both sides of the argument. Captain Swan is a great couple but sometimes I think its flaws are ignored.

The main difference I guess is that Emma and her lost bonds with Henry and her parents were the lynchpin of the series in the pilot and the premise of the show.  I actually think it's quite common that many viewers tend to find the heroes boring and gravitate to the villains, which was eventually what happened with this show, starting with the head-writers. From Harry Potter to comic book movies, the obsession with villains is more popular than unpopular.  It's more rare these days for people to be interested in the boring good guys, especially when the relationship between Emma, her parents and Henry was more real-life and more mundane, which is sometimes not what fantasy viewers watch for or want.  I do agree that at the end of the day, balance was what was needed.  I personally enjoyed all the characters on this show to some degree; otherwise, I would not find it enjoyable to discuss it.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Camera One

[superloislane]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

In 5A, when Emma was Dark Swan in Storybrooke, A&E chose not to give a single solo scene with either Snow or David with Dark Emma.  It's unfathomable.

I remember Ginny was asked about Snow not having any scenes with Dark One Emma and she said she didn't even notice that. I don't know if she was just covering her disappointment with it by saying that or whether she really didn't notice the lack of scenes between them anymore. And she did an interview (around 4b time I think) where the woman asked her if Emma and Snow will finally bond and Ginny said we will see their EXISTING BOND threatened. I found that interesting as she was asked straight out whether they would FINALLY bond and she felt she needed to say they have an existing bond. 

[Rumsy4]

8 hours ago, Camera One said:

  especially when the relationship between Emma, her parents and Henry was more real-life and more mundane, which is sometimes not what fantasy viewers watch for or want.  

The stuff in 2A was amazing by A&E’s later standards. They had Emma go on an adventure with  Snow just after they realized their true relationship. Emma got to see her friend-turned-mother being badass. There was drama and emotional scenes as well. The scene in Emma’s abandoned nursery was pretty heartbreaking. They also had other characters like Mulan et al, Hook, etc., to balance the Snow-Emma interactions. 

The writers could have easily focused just a little more on Charming family scenes without compromising on other storylines or adventure stuff. They instead chose to turn Snow boring and dull, and never let her do anything interesting anymore. Whenever they did focus on Snowing, it was always about each other. You can’t believably portray a couple as “epic” True Love while also ruining their relationship with their children. It just ended up making them them look like horrible and selfish parents by the end. From 2B onwards, they were written as if they weren’t really Emma’s parents. Even their obsession with Snowflake turned out to be a flash in the pan. By 5A, Snowing were parenting Regina more than either of their children. 

If Snow and Emma weren’t Regina’s direct victims, I would not have cared so much over Regina taking over the Show. If her redemption had not been built on the premise of destroying other characters, I might even have cheered for her. As is, I will always feel cheated over the  change of direction in the Show’s focus from Emma and the Charmings to Regina and other villains.

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, superloislane said:

And she did an interview (around 4b time I think) where the woman asked her if Emma and Snow will finally bond and Ginny said we will see their EXISTING BOND threatened. I found that interesting as she was asked straight out whether they would FINALLY bond and she felt she needed to say they have an existing bond. 

I think I remember that interview.  Did she give a pause of thought before answering?  It seemed like she was trying to choose her words.  Because the straight-up answer to that question would have been no, they do not bond.  

[Camera One]

This isn't a spoiler, so I'll post it here.  From the interview from Deadline.

Quote

Was there a pitch for season 8?

Kitsis says there was, but preferred not to divulge:
“We’ll save it for the reunion when they approach us in two years.”

These Writers are really something.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

17 minutes ago, Camera One said:

These Writers are really something.

Do they plan on doing nothing else for the next few years?

[Rumsy4]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Do they plan on doing nothing else for the next few years?

I mean...

[KingOfHearts]

I used to think good writing was difficult or something, since A&E were so often rewarded for mediocre storytelling. But then I started watching other shows, and realized it really shouldn't be for their caliber. They don't obey simple rules or conventions. There are so many simple fixes to their problems that someone with no experience could point some of them out. It's not rocket science. I'm not saying writing a prime time fantasy drama is easy by any means, but it's certainly possible. It's not like OUAT's premise is too flawed by design or too complicated to work over the course of several seasons. It just needed some adjustments. 

When you hear anyone talk about OUAT, their comment is usually something along the lines of, "Oh yeah, that happened. First few seasons were good, but I stopped watching."

Edited February 28, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[RolloTomasi]

Quality of the actual writing aside, at the end of the day A&E are bad showrunners. The joke is that they get as far as “wouldn’t it be cool if...” and then stop there, but that’s not the entire problem. The problem is they have way too many of these “cool” ideas and then throw them all into the show, all at once, before getting bored and moving on to something new. Instead of a coherent thread running through a season, we get Land of Untold Stories/Evil Queen/Black Fairy/Savior Mythology/Aladdin/Final Battle, all done poorly because there’s too much going on. A good showrunner would throw most of those “cool” ideas out and go with two or three, and actually be invested in the execution. It’s pretty telling that the tightest season storytelling-wise was done with the help of Damon Lindelof.

 

(I mean, the writing is bad too, obviously.)

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Yeah, sending people to a place with a higher standard of living is a really dumb idea of a punishment. But like others have said, they might have been able to take some things from our world back with them. The dwarfs are good at figuring things out and making stuff. They might not have managed to build an Internet (and looking at a lot of what happens on the Internet, that's not an entirely bad thing), but I bet they'd be able to create a sewer system, indoor plumbing and a few other modern things. I guess it boils down to whether or not they want to be there, and the show never bothered to explore how people felt. We don't even really know if Regina actually wanted to stay there or if she was only there because of Henry.

Way back when, one of the scenarios I thought they might try for the final season would be Storybrooke being moved to the Enchanted Forest, and making that world habitable again, maybe rooting out an evil villain who had taken up taken over in their absence (we never really saw them effective against the Wicked Witch in 3B).  It would have been fun to see the Dwarves working on modernizing their old palace and creating some magical versions of modern conveniences like transportation fueled by magic dust, and maybe using modern knowledge to outsmart a villain they haven't done yet.  That would have allowed them to keep their Storybrooke setting AND have the Enchanted Forest at their doorstep.

[Rumsy4]

I think a permanent portal between Storybrooke and the Enchanted Forest should've been established. Forget this "last magic bean" nonsense. The show should have embraced its penchant for having a million ways to get between the worlds. Why couldn't Anton revive the magic bean field in Storybrooke? After all, other people were able to find Beans in later seasons. That way, people would be able to travel back and forth, visiting their friends and relatives, and deciding which life fit them best.

I couldn't see Emma permanently moving back to the EF. She would never fit there perfectly. I can't say Emma has been the best sheriff, but I think she would be fine continuing the position. But, the career choice of literally every other main character was odd. Why would Hook want to be a deputy sheriff? It doesn't make sense. He is not going to turn back to his pony-tail wearing naval lieutenant days. Some job where he could use the Jolly Roger would've fit better. I always thought he could've become a teacher as he seemed to enjoy mentoring kids. He could teach sailing and navigation, sword-fighting, medieval history of the enchanted forest, etc..

Why did Charms want to be a farmer again? It's not like he and his mother had been making their farm a success back in the day. He had leadership skills (as long as he wasn't listening to Snow's dumb advice). He could've stayed the co-sheriff, or run for Mayor himself. 

Snow/MM choosing to be a teacher was the worst! She was happiest when she was teaching during the Curse? That was stupid. She was repeating every day in a haze. And if her teaching style was anything like that physics lesson she taught, I pity the kids of Storybrooke. The writers ruined her too much to be an effective Mayor. But then, was she worse than Regina? I'm not sure what would be a fit role for Snowy Margaret because she had zero personality by the end of the Show. 

[Rumsy4]

31 minutes ago, Mitch said:

First, I think any of the non magic people would get in their cars and drive over to the LWOM instead of waiting for the next Big Bad in a low cut dress to threaten everyone on Main Street...

 

Which is what some of them were shown to do in one of the season DVD bits, IIRC. Realistically, there ought to have been a mass exodus. Unless, everyone's back account keeps getting magically refilled every night, and the latest model of smartphone appears by their bedsides. Regina can probably tweak the conditions of the Curse post-casting. 

Edited March 1, 2018 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

5 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I think a permanent portal between Storybrooke and the Enchanted Forest should've been established. Forget this "last magic bean" nonsense. The show should have embraced its penchant for having a million ways to get between the worlds. Why couldn't Anton revive the magic bean field in Storybrooke? After all, other people were able to find Beans in later seasons. That way, people would be able to travel back and forth, visiting their friends and relatives, and deciding which life fit them best.

What's funny is that one was established in 4x11 between Storybrooke and Arendelle, but it was never mentioned again. Ever since then I wished Captain Swan had their honeymoon in Arendelle.

Edited March 1, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

It would have made sense to me (and, like an idiot, I thought thats what they were going to do at first) if Storybrooke ended up as a sort of gateway between worlds, that would allow people from different worlds to all come and go, and meet up with people and stuff. That way the people who wanted to go back to the EF could go back, and people who wanted to start in Storeybrooke could stay. Then there would not only be more story opportunities and ways to play with different genres and franchises, but it means that the characters could have more agency in their happy endings, and they didn't just get stuck doing the same crap they did when they were cursed. Now, all those happy endings that we were promised just seemed tacked on without thought. Why would Charming want to be a farmer? Why would Snow want to be a teacher? They never seemed too attached to those jobs before, so why was that their happy ending? 

The plot holes on this show are so massive, but could have been so easy to write around, its actually amazing. Never before have I seen writing that is so crap, that it actually feels like the writers are trolling us at times, teasing us with cool ideas or interesting characters, and than yanking it away and giving us another Regina crying scene or some shit. And instead of coming up with super easy hand waves for their massive plot holes or contrivances, instead we get literal hand waves where magic jazz hands can do anything without any rhyme or reason, when providing actual explanations could have actually been easier than just ignoring stuff.  

[ParadoxLost]

20 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

It would have made sense to me (and, like an idiot, I thought thats what they were going to do at first) if Storybrooke ended up as a sort of gateway between worlds, that would allow people from different worlds to all come and go, and meet up with people and stuff. That way the people who wanted to go back to the EF could go back, and people who wanted to start in Storeybrooke could stay.

I never understood why they would create a room of portals in season 1 (Jefferson/Mad Hatter) and then not use it just as you described.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

I never understood why they would create a room of portals in season 1 (Jefferson/Mad Hatter) and then not use it just as you described.

Then Zelena was able to pick one up in Oz, since Jefferson had multiples. 

One fantasy/sci-fi trope this show hasn't done is taking a real historical figure and using the show's mythology as an explanation for their actions or disappearance. We had that Walt Disney reference, but the show was never explicit about it. Blackbeard doesn't count because he is a fictionalized version. I mean more along the lines of Amelia Earhart falling into a portal and winding up in Neverland. The Land of Untold Stories would have been a great vehicle for this. I'm not saying they should have done this, but we were talking about unused tropes a couple weeks ago.

Edited March 1, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

7 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

What's funny is that one was established in 4x11 between Storybrooke and Arendelle, but it was never mentioned again. 

 

That's what I was thinking too.  That door would still be in the Sorcerer's Mansion.  With the Wand of whoever (the Apprentice?  the Black Fairy?  don't remember), Zelena easily created a portal for Merida, the Merry Men and the Camelot people to go back.  Why them and not other people?  

Edited March 2, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I was watching bits and pieces of the clip show from before the Season 6 finale since I never watched it.  I guess I never realized that Regina's arc in Season 6 was learning to love herself.  She needed to learn to love the evil witch who got Edmond Dantes killed, put Snowing through all that turmoil, got Cinders impaled with a cane and murdered The Oracle.  Because that really was the biggest lesson she needed to learn.

Does that mean Regina knew all along that Hook killed David's father?  

Edited March 2, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

57 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Does that mean Regina knew all along that Hook killed David's father?  

How could she possibly know? Apparently Rumple knew about it too. (Which I guess makes sense considering he wanted to preserve his deal with George.)

[Camera One]

I was watching the Season 6 deleted scenes.  In "Changelings", they removed the Jack and Jill flashback with Rumple, which meant the baby Rumple stole was shown without context.  I remember not caring about the baby because it was basically anonymous.  Reading a synopsis of this episode bored me and reminded me how much I hated it.   There was so much annoying power-play between Rumple, The Evil Queen and Zelena, as if the scenes were highly intense.  I also rewatched the scene where Blue saves Belle and Blue says she has no idea how The Black Fairy turned evil.  This basically shows that at Episode 9, they had not even come up with The Black Fairy's origin story beyond becoming Rumple's mother.  

So how was Fetus Gideon able to communicate with Belle?  Was there something I forgot which explains this?  

[jhlipton]

On 2/22/2018 at 4:18 AM, superloislane said:

I don't know if I was thinking about who would get redeemed or not but Rumple was definitely the more redeemable one in the first season. .

I think the first time we see him, he murders a fairy (the Black character is always the first to die) for no good reason.  It would be hard for him to be redeemable after that.

On 2/24/2018 at 11:26 AM, Rumsy4 said:

So it's really confusing why they [did everything they did]t, only to mess it up this badly. 

Fixed that for you.

On 2/25/2018 at 1:00 PM, Camera One said:

The final supper scene should have Henry exposing Rumple for what he did and everyone rushing over to strangle him to death. 

That would actually fit the prophesy they made so much fuss about (and then forgot, in typical A&E fashion) about Henry being Rumple's undoing.

On 2/26/2018 at 8:39 PM, Camera One said:

It's more rare these days for people to be interested in the boring good guys

One of the many great things about Black Panther is that the Good Guys aren't boring, even when they're not fighting the villains.

On 2/27/2018 at 6:44 PM, KingOfHearts said:

Do they plan on doing nothing else for the next few years?

We can only hope!

13 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Ever since then I wished Captain Swan had their honeymoon in Arendelle.

Sorry, but they're never going back to that old school! Oh, wait, you said "Arendelle"... Never mind!

[superloislane]

2 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I think the first time we see him, he murders a fairy (the Black character is always the first to die) for no good reason.  It would be hard for him to be redeemable after that

I was saying out of both Regina and Rumple, Rumple was the more redeemable one in the first season, not that he should have been redeemed. And actually the first time we see him is locked up as Regina's prisoner and the first time we see Regina she's casting the curse and bursting in on weddings making threats. And just thinking about it - we even see Regina murder someone before Rumple - her father in the second episode.

[jhlipton]

I guess the scene where Rumple murders the fairy stoo0d out for me because of who nasty it was.

[Rumsy4]

Wasn't Rumple a prisoner of Snowing, not Regina? That tells us right off the bat--Snowing are the worst!!!

The episode where we found out that Regina had been raping Graham for decades I thought that meant Regina was not going to be redeemed in the Show. Post-episode, Adam and Eddy joked on the official podcast that they may have been "playing chess" in her bedchamber (completely ignoring the Storybooke rape, btw). 

Seven seasons in, we have Gothel, who am pretty sure has some tragic backstory to excuse her rape.

I can't say I thought much of Cinderella for not turning a hair seeing her fairy godmother murdered by Rumple (hmm...shades of Murderella there??). However, I did find Rumple more interesting and as having the potential for redemption much more than Regina the first season and a half. 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I can't say I thought much of Cinderella for not turning a hair seeing her fairy godmother murdered by Rumple (hmm...shades of Murderella there??). 

Yes, it confirms that complete dismissing death of redshirts was there from the beginning.  They only made it worse in 6A when they had Cinderella calling Rumple her fairy-godfather.  The real Cinderella full of kindness would have been so traumatized she wouldn't even have gone to the ball.

[Shanna Marie]

On 3/1/2018 at 8:17 AM, Rumsy4 said:

I couldn't see Emma permanently moving back to the EF. She would never fit there perfectly.

It's really hard to say, though, since they never got into that aside from raising the question briefly during season 2. She was a big wigged out during Team Princess, but mostly because she was still processing it all and was separated from Henry. She didn't seem to have any issues coping with Neverland or with Camelot. Once she accepted that she was the daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming and made it into the storybook, thanks to the time travel adventure, she might have been okay with it all. Henry didn't seem to have any trouble coping with either Neverland or Camelot, and he ended up choosing to move to a fairytale world. So who knows?

But like everything else in the show, it wasn't developed at all. I think that's the root problem with everything: the show is half-baked. The worldbuilding and magical system are undeveloped, the characters are underdeveloped. Everything exists only for the plot in a particular episode and may be forgotten by the next episode.

That's left them with all kinds of crazy stuff. For instance, just what in the heck does a map of that world look like, when you can't swing a cat unless the cat has a passport because there are so many kingdoms within walking distance of each other? There's Leopold's kingdom, and George's kingdom seems to be adjacent, with Midas's kingdom near that. Camelot's also nearby, since it's an easy walk from the Dark One portal, which is a walk in hotpants in the snow from Rumple's castle, which is a walk from Regina's castle with an unconscious woman over your shoulder. Not!Scotland is across the lake from Camelot. Eric's kingdom is close enough that Snow was able to run there while being chased by Black Knights. Henry Sr.'s father's kingdom must also be nearby, since Cora was delivering flour there but also walked to Leopold's castle grounds. Then there's Cinderella's kingdom, which was apparently close enough to get caught in the curse. Is Maurice a king of his own kingdom? They never said what his title was. There's Rapunzel 1.0's parents' kingdom. Possibly farther away but still close enough to not require a sea voyage are Aurora's and Philip's kingdoms.

All this would be okay if they planned it -- in fact, it would be the natural result of all those fairy tales in which the king gives half his kingdom and his daughter's hand in marriage to the guy who does whatever great deed. A few generations like that, and you've got kingdoms the size of a city block. On this show, it just happens because they keep writing stories that require kings, queens, princes, and princesses, and they want the characters to get around quickly rather than wasting time traveling.

But there are consequences to the proliferation of royalty. It means there are kings and princes in Storybrooke. Ashley's father-in-law is there. Eric was there with curse one. Abigail was there, so was Midas? Philip and Aurora were there for curse 2. Were these other kings and princes willing to keep living under Regina's rule? Why did none of them step into the power vacuum in 2A when Regina was kicked out of office and no one seemed to be mayor? It's crazy enough that people who were willing to die rather than give up Snow to Regina became okay with Regina being in charge, but even crazier that neighboring rulers who got caught up in Regina's curse are willing to be ordinary small town dwellers with Regina as mayor.

There was some good story potential here, but the kings were apparently as red-shirted as anyone else. They only existed for plot purposes in one episode, then vanished. That's the way they wrote everything.

[Camera One]

We know so little about even the main characters that we can't actually tell what they want or what they think.  On one hand, maybe Emma would go where her family was.  Apparently, she had zero friends or connections in the real world.  On the other hand, she would probably miss the modern conveniences.  Or would she?  Who knows.  Apparently, she didn't feel the need to move to where Henry was.  If Storybrooke was now boring and perfect, would she really be stimulated by being Sheriff?  And Emma is actually one of the more defined characters.  Snow or Mary Margaret or whoever she is at this particular moment changes depending on which direction a breeze blows (or whenever A&E gets a mood swing).  

That's why any "reunion" in the finale will ultimately feel empty and unsatisfying.  

Edited March 3, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

That's why any "reunion" in the finale will ultimately feel empty and unsatisfying.  

I think the only way it will be fun is if they have Emma and co. be aged up by 30 years. End with a second last supper where Emma, Hook Prime, Snowing are all pushing 60, and show it. The CS child is like 25-30. They all lived for three decades free of Regina, Rumple, and Henry. The grand reunion will be amusing at least.