A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[Shanna Marie]

I don't get the feeling that A&E have quit trying or that they're aware they're out of ideas. It seems more like they've become so impressed with their own brilliance that they've lost touch with reality. It's always come across like they couldn't take criticism, and now their writing reminds me of the kind of thing you get with some novelists when they become too big to be edited. Now their ADD writing style is really coming out, so that by the time they come up with an idea and develop it even the least bit, they're already bored with it, so nothing is developed at all and they jump from one idea to the next. The other writers are so bogged down in keeping up with the latest lurch that they can barely get their own scripts done, so there's no one questioning any of the decisions or suggesting they go further into something they've already set up rather than rushing off to the next thing. They were probably already bored with Cinderella by the time they wrote the first script, and then were excited about the idea that it would be a big surprise that Ivy was actually awake the whole time, but by the time that was written they were off on the Gothel tangent. It's very similar to what we saw in season six, where concepts were flying fast and furious, with nothing really developed. Other writers might have been able to get at least three seasons out of the material they used for season six, but instead we got it all, and none of it in a very satisfactory way.

I'm surprised the network isn't keeping a closer watch, given the money involved and the tanking ratings. Some of the frantic rushing from one thing to the next might be a panicked reaction to the ratings, but there's so much lead time from concept to broadcast and ratings that I doubt we've really seen a ratings reaction yet. That will come in the second half.

[Rumsy4]

37 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I'm surprised the network isn't keeping a closer watch, given the money involved and the tanking ratings.

I’m stunned how they keep adding more and more cast members to the mix! Even with the exit of Ginny, Josh, and JMo, it cannot be cheap paying all the new actors in addition to Robert Carlyle’s and Lana’s reworked pay. Colin likely is still on his original contract. 

[Free]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I don't get the feeling that A&E have quit trying or that they're aware they're out of ideas. It seems more like they've become so impressed with their own brilliance that they've lost touch with reality. It's always come across like they couldn't take criticism, and now their writing reminds me of the kind of thing you get with some novelists when they become too big to be edited. Now their ADD writing style is really coming out, so that by the time they come up with an idea and develop it even the least bit, they're already bored with it, so nothing is developed at all and they jump from one idea to the next. The other writers are so bogged down in keeping up with the latest lurch that they can barely get their own scripts done, so there's no one questioning any of the decisions or suggesting they go further into something they've already set up rather than rushing off to the next thing. They were probably already bored with Cinderella by the time they wrote the first script, and then were excited about the idea that it would be a big surprise that Ivy was actually awake the whole time, but by the time that was written they were off on the Gothel tangent. It's very similar to what we saw in season six, where concepts were flying fast and furious, with nothing really developed. Other writers might have been able to get at least three seasons out of the material they used for season six, but instead we got it all, and none of it in a very satisfactory way.

I'm surprised the network isn't keeping a closer watch, given the money involved and the tanking ratings. Some of the frantic rushing from one thing to the next might be a panicked reaction to the ratings, but there's so much lead time from concept to broadcast and ratings that I doubt we've really seen a ratings reaction yet. That will come in the second half.

In terms of ratings, it's a lost cause, it's not going to get any better this Spring and A&E certainly hasn't made it any easier with the spoilers of what we already know.

[Shanna Marie]

15 minutes ago, Free said:

In terms of ratings, it's a lost cause, it's not going to get any better this Spring and A&E certainly hasn't made it any easier with the spoilers of what we already know.

When the network should have stepped in and at least tried to figure out why viewers were leaving was early in season 4, when they got the big bump from Frozen and lost it rather dramatically a few episodes later and kept sliding. Obviously, something wasn't working, and they might have managed to fix things then. It does seem like season 3 overall was an attempt to fix the huge drop during season 2, but I think they missed the reasons for the drop. They blamed the sporadic scheduling and switched to that two-arc format for the season, with a big gap between arcs rather than the random weeks off, but they don't seem to have realized that the screwy morality, moving Regina abruptly to hero status (in spite of her plan to kill everyone in town) and turning Snow into a wimp who was treated like a villain for killing a mass murderer who was on the verge of obtaining ultimate power turned off a lot of viewers. When I talk to people about this show, the most common response I get is along the lines of "I watched the first season or so, but then it became all about Regina and they turned Snow White into such a wimp, and I quit watching."

[Rumsy4]

58 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

they turned Snow White into such a wimp

That's the final legacy of A&E. They put a spin on Snow White alright. 

[Camera One]

11 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I might agree, if they actually gave Regina and Rumple anything to do this season. I do think A&E's plan was to drop the boring heroes and focus on their favs, but they have done nothing with it. They had more going on for Regina and Rumple in Season 6 than they do now. Regina spews platitudes, while Rumple is disengaged from the narrative more than ever. 

 

I seriously don't understand why they wanted Rumple back for this season.  It's like they re-signed the actors playing their fav's, and THEN went, "Oh wait... what are we doing with them?"  They no doubt thought "Wouldn't it be cool if Rumple was a cop and wouldn't it be cool if Regina wore casual" was enough.  Having said that, Regina has always been heavier in the second half of the season, and they've teased some things for her.  In Season 1 as well, Rumple's more human side was displayed more in the second half, so maybe it will be the same this time around.   I also think A&E were quite proud of the "Up" episode for Rumple.  I must have taken out my heart and put it into a box because I wasn't moved at all.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Camera One

[Free]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

When the network should have stepped in and at least tried to figure out why viewers were leaving was early in season 4, when they got the big bump from Frozen and lost it rather dramatically a few episodes later and kept sliding. Obviously, something wasn't working, and they might have managed to fix things then. It does seem like season 3 overall was an attempt to fix the huge drop during season 2, but I think they missed the reasons for the drop. They blamed the sporadic scheduling and switched to that two-arc format for the season, with a big gap between arcs rather than the random weeks off, but they don't seem to have realized that the screwy morality, moving Regina abruptly to hero status (in spite of her plan to kill everyone in town) and turning Snow into a wimp who was treated like a villain for killing a mass murderer who was on the verge of obtaining ultimate power turned off a lot of viewers. When I talk to people about this show, the most common response I get is along the lines of "I watched the first season or so, but then it became all about Regina and they turned Snow White into such a wimp, and I quit watching."

They tried to 'fix' things each season but they never understood the core problems to begin with.

19 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I seriously don't understand why they wanted Rumple back for this season.  It's like they re-signed the actors playing their fav's, and THEN went, "Oh wait... what are we doing with them?"  They no doubt thought "Wouldn't be cool if Rumple was a cop and wouldn't it be cool if Regina wore casual" was enough.  Having said that, Regina has always been heavier in the second half of the season, and they've teased some things for her.  In Season 1 as well, Rumple's more human side was displayed more in the second half, so maybe it will be the same this time around.   I also think A&E were quite proud of the "Up" episode for Rumple.  I must have taken out my heart and put it into a box because I wasn't moved at all.

Yeah, the veterans barely have anything to do.

[CCTC]

29 minutes ago, Camera One said:

 I also think A&E were quite proud of the "Up" episode for Rumple.  I must have taken out my heart and put it into a box because I wasn't moved at all.

It kind of made Rumple and Belle seem really self-involved - like they had  no life outside of each other - no real friends - no interests - even their interactions with Gideon seemed secondary.  Plus their scenes together were so flowery and Hallmarky, it did not seem like a real relationship.

[KingOfHearts]

44 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I also think A&E were quite proud of the "Up" episode for Rumple.  I must have taken out my heart and put it into a box because I wasn't moved at all.

If Rumple had actually died at the end of that episode, I would have really liked it. It would have been a great send-off for character and really surprised the audience. Alas, we're stuck with this Guardian subplot and Rumple's character is metaphorically on life support. Moving Rumple to a Land Without Magic should have rendered him mortal. That should have been the reason behind the Curse - Rumple was manipulating Drizella or somebody to cast it so he could finally die.

Edited February 2, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

11 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

That should have been the reason behind the Curse - Rumple was manipulating Drizella or somebody to cast it so he could finally die.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's the twist revealed in the middle of 7B.  

[KingOfHearts]

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

Which mythology was your favorite?  I pick F.

A) The Dark One
B) The Author
C) The Sorcerer
D) The Savior
E) The Guardian

Ursula: "Pretentious. I hate him already."

[Rumsy4]

28 minutes ago, Mitch said:

I never understood why they didn't make Snow's father intentionally creepy.  He came off as a combo of a moron (now we know where Snow got it) and a perve...(come on..there is no way this old man married a buxom young hottie to just. "Give my daughter a mother.")  Regina's redemption would make more sense if she was forced into a marriage with this creepy old guy who only truly loved his daughter and she was indeed not able to live up to his first wife's image. Doesn't mean that eventually killing him and turning EVIL was a good thing but it would give everything more depth.

Yes. Instead, Regina chose to marry him even after she pushed Cora into Wonderland. And later she admits to Tink that she kept herself aloof from father and daughter and was administering sleeping curses to horses. Leopold didn’t seem to have forced her to actually be involved. And yet, we’re expected to sympathize with Regina that Leopold never danced with her!!

[Mitch]

16 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Ursula: "Pretentious. I hate him already."

Oh Zeus..we really need Cruella to be in whateverthehellthenameofthestreet is...I would just love to see her deal with a hipster doufus from our world!

[KingOfHearts]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Yes. Instead, Regina chose to marry him even after she pushed Cora into Wonderland. And later she admits to Tink that she kept herself aloof from father and daughter and was administering sleeping curses to horses. Leopold didn’t seem to have forced her to actually be involved. And yet, we’re expected to sympathize with Regina that Leopold never danced with her!!

I don't understand these writers. If they want us to sympathize with her misery, then make her miserable via what she couldn't control. Force her to marry Leopold. Make Leopold a negligent creep. Show us more of Cora's abuse. If anything, make the Evil Queen a false moniker for poor, misunderstood Regina. Make Snow actually do something horrible to her in adulthood. If your goal is to make a character relatable and pitiable, don't portray them smiling in front of the village they just burned down. I'm not saying they should have made Regina misunderstood, but if they were going to, they needed a different strategy.

Regina is a very difficult character to write due to her complexity, I would think. She could only work if you planned her redemption out from the start. But instead, the writers made her a straight-up evil antagonist in S1 and pulled a 180 in 2A, only to pull another 180 in 2B. You would have to be careful how she was presented before her come to Jesus moment, since she'd have to be evil enough to cast a curse but not enough to be irredeemable. A lot of the weight would have to be put on Rumple, as a lot of Regina's freedom would have to be stripped in order to push her into a situation she couldn't be held completely responsible for.

Edited February 2, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

During a bout of insomnia last night, I found myself thinking about the discussion in the Other Fairytales thread about sad backstories and whether or not they're excuses for villainy, and started ranking the sad backstories of all the major characters, from worst (most sad) to best (least sad). It beat counting sheep. Here’s what I came up with, though there are a lot of gray areas, as some are apples to oranges comparisons. It all depends on how you rank living conditions, family support, danger, etc.

#1 Worst: Hook. He was sold into slavery as a child by his father. Being a child slave in dangerous conditions (since they seemed to be in constant danger of stuff like storms and shipwrecks) pretty much tops any other way any other character grew up. He had a positive relationship with his father before he was sold, so that had to have been a massive betrayal. We don’t know exactly how he was treated by the crew, but given that the captain was willing to exploit him and get him blackout drunk (when he had to still be in his teens for his timeline to make any sense at all), I can’t imagine life was easy. Then he ended up in the navy in the middle of a war, learned that the land he fought for was corrupt and the king was planning genocide, and his brother who was his only family died. He pulled things together again and fell in love, only to have his lover murdered in front of him and his hand cut off.
#2 Worst: Emma. (Seemingly) Left on the side of the road, abandoned as a newborn, bounced around foster homes without being adopted. When she found a good home, something always ended up going horribly wrong so that she lost that home. Ended up on the streets, homeless, as a teenage runaway, then got sent to jail, pregnant, for her boyfriend’s crime while her boyfriend bailed on her.
#3 I went back and forth on this, but I ended up with Snow. Yeah, she was a princess and grew up in a palace, but when you look at it, her life was pretty screwy. Her mother died when she was a child, and it happened in a way that made Snow feel like she was to blame because she didn’t use the magic she’d been given to save her mother (even if it cost another life). When her father remarried, the stepmother she loved and thought loved her inexplicably went cold on her, and she had no idea what she’d done wrong. Bad things started happening around her that she didn’t quite understand — she had nearly impossible situations to deal with (like those bandits), her beloved horse went under a sleeping curse (and you know there had to be more little “gifts” like that from Regina). Then when her father died, she got driven out of her home and was to have been murdered. She had everything taken away from her — her title, her home, all her possessions — and became a homeless fugitive with absolutely nothing and a price on her head.
#4 Bae. He lost his mother when he was young, then his father went all weird and evil and let him go alone to another world rather than lose his powers. Was homeless and alone in a strange world, then got taken to Neverland, where he spent at least a century as a teenager (which had to be hell), then ended up in a strange world yet again.
#5 Zelena. Abandoned by the side of the road as a newborn. While she had a seemingly loving adoptive mother, her adoptive father hated her and thought she was evil, and he abused her behind her mother’s back. I might have ranked her worse, but it seems like her mother had only died recently before she left for the Emerald City, and Regina was already a queen by then, so Zelena was fully adult at that time and didn't spend much time alone with an abusive adoptive father.
#6 Rumple. Abandoned by his father, who wanted to be a kid again. But he was left in the care of people who seemed to have been good to him, and it didn’t seem like he had a great relationship with his father in the first place, so maybe he was better off with his father gone.
#7 David. Lost his father at a young age, and although he seemed pretty happy on the farm with his mother, it seems like they were always on the edge, trying to make ends meet or dealing with warlords who wanted protection money. He was forced to leave his mother to play a role he didn’t really want, and his mother was killed because he couldn’t go through with it and fought back. (I might even rank him worse than Rumple, but he seemed to have had a fairly emotionally healthy childhood in spite of the hardships, and that Neverland experience with Pan had to have been extremely freaky and traumatic for Rumple).
#8 Henry. Grew up in reasonable comfort, but it was a strange place where it was difficult to really interact with anyone. He couldn’t have friends because he kept growing up while the other kids didn’t. He had an emotionally distant mother who seemed more concerned with controlling everything than having a warm, loving home. When he started noticing that things were wrong, his mother gaslit him, putting him in therapy and trying to make him think he was crazy rather than seeing what was really going on. (I put him after David because David seemed to have more hardship and physical danger.)
#9 Cora. Had a useless father and had to work very hard in multiple jobs to keep her family going.
#10 Regina. Grew up in luxury in a mansion with a doting father, but also with a heartless (literally) “stage mother” who wanted her to be a queen. It didn’t seem from the child Regina flashback that she was actually mistreated (beyond memory wipes) until she was older and Cora’s plan to hook her up with Leopold was in motion and Regina was resisting. Her boyfriend was murdered in front of her.

Really, although they use Regina’s poor, sad history as an excuse for her villainy, her life was probably easier than that of any of the other main characters. She mostly just had a pushy mother who did take things too far at the end, but otherwise she didn’t have to do hard work, lived in comfort, was in no danger, and had one parent who doted on her (maybe a bit too much). I put her behind Cora because she didn’t have the hardship Cora went through. Cora may have been a lot of things, but she did seem to have been a hard worker, keeping the mill working when her father was drunk and also working at the tavern.

You could probably make a case for moving around the various ones in the middle, depending on how you rate physical hardship vs. emotional trauma vs. danger, but Hook hit all the categories, with parental abandonment, lack of any kind of home-like environment, lack of physical comfort, physical toil, physical danger, mistreatment and loss of loved ones. Emma also hit most of these, though she did have some positive foster care experiences along the way and doesn’t seem to have been used as slave labor. I was actually kind of surprised by how awful things were for Snow, once you start thinking about what she went through. I'd thought she'd be on the better end of the scale and ended up moving her higher on the list after thinking about it. Her life looks more like a villain origin story than Regina's does, and it's a pity they didn't explore that in the AU, showing her becoming evil as a result of what she went through, rather than just switching the actors playing the Snow and Evil Queen roles.

[KingOfHearts]

Pain on this show seems to be rated by who's the most volatile. Rumple and Regina victimized themselves the most and had the most emotional responses to their personal traumas. Hook and Zelena may have spent years on revenge, but they eventually gained self-awareness. Rumple and Regina never truly did. Emma and Snow* never used their past as an excuse to harm others. David almost did in S6. Henry downright romanticized his own past. Cora is tricky, because her actions weren't always out of entitlement spurred from her sad backstory. She pushed forward so hard she didn't care who was in the way. In a sense, it's in response to her humble beginnings and never wanting to go back to that. But on the other hand, she always had her eyes set on whatever she wanted in the moment. She didn't recount her past unless someone threatened to bring her back there. (Usually to guilt trip Regina.) 

*I'm not counting Evil!Snow or ShatteredSight!Snow.

Edited February 2, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I am never too enthused to watch procedural shows, but sometimes, watching them reminds me how much character building can still be done in a case-of-the-week type show (I was just watching two of "Lewis" at someone's house, having not watched any of the rest of the show).  

As much as I always seem to choose serialized shows, I think "Once" could have benefited from more of a stand-alone format.  Emma working on cases in Storybrooke to help some ex-fairy tale characters, with a fantasy-world flashback about them, and then having a relevant subplot with Hook in an episode, and then a subplot with her dad in another, and a subplot with her mom in a third, etc.  would have been refreshing.  I wonder if that type of format might have resulted in more enjoyable character moments.  "The world is ending" type plots are only effective once in a while, not every second episode.  

Edited February 3, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I randomly googled Dylan Schmid (the original young Baelfire) and found his instagram. He looks adorably like he could play a younger Gideon now. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Rumsy4]

7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I would argue that putting a sword in Snow's hand wasn't that incredibly innovative. Yes, it was something we hadn't seen before, but was it to anyone's benefit after S1? If you don't flesh something like that out and maintain some sort of consistency, it's pointless. That mere action alone is not enough to excuse five seasons of character assassination. 

Besides, it's disingenuous. They know very well they turned Snow into a boring cipher, but they want to claim credit for something they pretended to do in Season 1. They can't have it both ways. 

[Kktjones]

It is telling that the thing they're the most proud of happened in the very first episode. I guess it really was all downhill from there for both the creators and the fans...

[Camera One]

Quote

KITSIS: We are not trying to replicate what we did last year. We feel like that was a perfect ender to that book.

This quote pretty much shows why the potential would never have been met.  The Season 6 finale (well, the entire season) was poorly written and an insulting send-off to beloved characters.  And yet he calls it "perfect"?  

A&E's cancellation interview was so full of self-congratulation... apparently, everyone thought the show would be cancelled in 7 episodes, but look how long it has lasted.  That was totally over-stating the situation when the show premiered.  

I went on metacritic and read one of the reviews from 2011 when the show premiered, and newspaper critic said this:

Quote

One of the charms of classic fairy tales, even the ones spun into full-length Disney movies, is that they set up and resolved things in a tidy and efficient fashion.

To draw out the story by looping it through subplots and minidramas runs the risk of turning it into a fairy-tale soap opera - when what we really want to know is whether the tragic Snow White or the lonely Emma can in the end live happily ever after.

This is exactly what happened with the show.  And tragic Snow White and lonely Emma was pretty much destroyed in the process.

[KingOfHearts]

56 minutes ago, Camera One said:

This is exactly what happened with the show.  And tragic Snow White and lonely Emma was pretty much destroyed in the process.

It's funny that Eddy mentioned it in the interview, because "fairy tale soap opera" was one of the reasons the show didn't work half the time. Even the twists, such as Zarian's baby and Hook killing Charming's dad, were very reminiscent of a soap opera. It just kept going nowhere, over and over again. Every ending is a cliffhanger, nothing is ever tied up neatly, and the intent is never consistent. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's funny that Eddy mentioned it in the interview, because "fairy tale soap opera" was one of the reasons the show didn't work half the time. Even the twists, such as Zarian's baby and Hook killing Charming's dad, were very reminiscent of a soap opera. It just kept going nowhere, over and over again. Every ending is a cliffhanger, nothing is ever tied up neatly, and the intent is never consistent. 

But the point that is missed here is that a soap opera doesn't mean that twists go nowhere.  Soap operas tend to milk things like my sister is pregnant with my boyfriend's baby and my fiancée killed my Grandfather for drama.  OUAT just threw twists at a wall and then moved on.  Nothing had a consequence.

[Cindy McLennan]

I don't think it had enough soap (or at least it had the wrong kind of suds). Good soaps are character driven. When this show fell down, it was because it was plot driven. I wanted the relationships (and not just the romance, the family and friends stuff), but that was my mistake. This was action-adventure. 

The frigging curse resets and memory wipes were also over-used. 

I like  this:

On 2/3/2018 at 1:34 AM, Camera One said:

I am never too enthused to watch procedural shows, but sometimes, watching them reminds me how much character building can still be done in a case-of-the-week type show (I was just watching two of "Lewis" at someone's house, having not watched any of the rest of the show).  

As much as I always seem to choose serialized shows, I think "Once" could have benefited from more of a stand-alone format.  Emma working on cases in Storybrooke to help some ex-fairy tale characters, with a fantasy-world flashback about them, and then having a relevant subplot with Hook in an episode, and then a subplot with her dad in another, and a subplot with her mom in a third, etc.  would have been refreshing.  I wonder if that type of format might have resulted in more enjoyable character moments.  "The world is ending" type plots are only effective once in a while, not every second episode.  

Week to week, I think it should have been Emma helping this character or that with their happy endings. You could have a season-long or half-season big bad, who tied into several of the characters Emma was helping. Where the soap should come in is in the relationships, but that's not what this show did. It would touch on moments, but then they'd be dropped. 

6 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

But the point that is missed here is that a soap opera doesn't mean that twists go nowhere.  Soap operas tend to milk things like my sister is pregnant with my boyfriend's baby and my fiancée killed my Grandfather for drama.  OUAT just threw twists at a wall and then moved on.  Nothing had a consequence.

Yes! This. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Cindy McLennan said:

I don't think it had enough soap (or at least it had the wrong kind of suds). Good soaps are character driven. When this show fell down, it was because it was plot driven. I wanted the relationships (and not just the romance, the family and friends stuff), but that was my mistake. This was action-adventure. 

I think calling it action adventure still gives it too much credit.  There was still too little depth of character and way too much standing around and doing nothing for that.

I've thought about OUAT this way for a long time.

I wanted a show rooted in folk and fairy tales.  A show that plays on all the literature and movies that came before.  I was disappointed to learn that the show was based on and had all the depth of the rides at Disney World (without even the urban legend that Walt's head is cryogenically frozen under the Pirates of the Caribbean).

[KAOS Agent]

I just saw a gif set made to send off the show and it was all S1. Awesome Snow White & Charming, Emma & little Henry forming a bond, Emma & Snow becoming friends, Jefferson, fun twists that made sense, cool fairy tale adventures, creepy Storybrooke.  It reminded me how much I miss that show. I loved that show. I would have cried back then if it had been cancelled. Now I honestly could not care less. What a sad way for this show to go out. 

[jhlipton]

On 2/2/2018 at 10:34 PM, Camera One said:

I am never too enthused to watch procedural shows, but sometimes, watching them reminds me how much character building can still be done in a case-of-the-week type show.

Sleepy Hollow, season 1.  Brooklyn 9-9, every episode, every season.  Lucifer.

[KingOfHearts]

I'd love to do a comprehensive rewatch with you guys after the show finishes. Perhaps it's my affinity for analyzation, or just schadenfreude. This series has some dark corners we've forgotten that I think we could pull more from if they were to resurface. (Looking at you, all those episodes we dare not name.) There are still some parts of the series I've yet to binge rewatch, which would be pretty much everything from the latter half of 5B onwards. There's so much to tear down still, imo. Review after its completion provides a new perspective.

Edited February 7, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

15 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'd love to do a comprehensive rewatch with you guys after the show finishes.

Yes! And at a reasonable enough pace that it's easy to keep up with. Maybe more than one a week, but not every day. It will be interesting putting it all in perspective based on the entire series. How does what happened later affect the way we see what happened earlier? Will season one Henry be as cute now that we've met him as an adult?

5 hours ago, XrystalPond said:

I think what hurt those storylines the most was the lack of reaction to anything.

That's my big problem. They would do these huge things to the characters and then it just didn't matter anymore. It's really crazy if you think about it. They're all hanging out with and friends with people who murdered their parents. Who does that? Hook was mortally wounded, turned into a Dark One against his will, nearly killed all the people he cared about before he fought for control against the Darkness, was killed, spent time in the Underworld being tortured, and was brought back to life by divine intervention -- and it didn't change a thing. It wasn't even worth another mention. It didn't change his relationship with Emma. He didn't become a "live for the moment" guy, he didn't question his existence, he didn't try to make his new life count in a positive way, he didn't even change his clothes. Emma didn't react like someone miraculously reunited with someone she'd loved and lost. She ditched him right away to run off instead of not letting him out of her sight (wouldn't she have been almost afraid that it wouldn't last, that he'd disappear on her? In her shoes, I'd have handcuffed him to me for a while until I was certain it was for real and for good) and started pushing him away because of vague fears. When people did react to something, it was in an unrealistic way, like Emma claiming that Hook had never loved her when he disappeared after she told him to go figure things out. It would have been more in character for her and more likely, given the way their world is, to at least at first figure out whether something bad might have happened to him and give him the benefit of the doubt that maybe he was, you know, off figuring things out. He left with his brother and mentor on a realm-hopping vessel. That doesn't mean he never loved her (given how many times he's died for her). And then that was all totally forgotten after the temporary drama.

 

5 hours ago, XrystalPond said:

The Zarian baby thing was another one that was basically glossed over. What did Robin Hood think? How was he going to explain this to Roland?

How did he explain it to Roland? Roland said goodbye to Zelena like he knew her, and he knew the baby was his sister. But the relationship between Zelena and Roland should have been one-way, since Zelena probably got to know him while she was posing as Marian, but Roland would have only known "Marian." He'd never have interacted with Zelena. And would they have even told Roland that Zelena's baby was his sister? Especially since we'd never seen him around the baby before he left to go back to Sherwood with Little John. Almost as soon as the baby was born, it was off to the Underworld, and then almost as soon as they came back, Robin died and Roland left. So when did Roland get a chance to bond with his sister, and why would they have told him? Wouldn't that have been hugely confusing to a kid?

Still more major events that would be life-changing for the characters, but with no visible impact.

I guess one good thing about yet another rape plotline in season seven is that Whook acts more like you'd expect of someone who had that done to him. He's not hanging out with Gothel and happily co-parenting his rape baby with her.

[KingOfHearts]

I tried quoting your post, @Shanna Marie, but it's difficult on mobile.

I'd like to put each episode under a microscope and compare earlier episodes with later ones. Really get into the nitty gritty, spoilers and all. The good, the bad, and the ugly.

Also - Regina said they would wipe Roland's memory of Zarian, so nothing was explained to him. That makes it even creepier when he gives Robin's feather to Zelena. "Thanks for killing my mom, pretending to be her, raping my dad, and letting your boyfriend kill him!" Zelena shared responsibility for both his parents' deaths. I'm pretty sure he never knew about his half-sister, either. (Unless by some miracle we get a grown up Roland flashback in S7 to compliment the Robyn/Alice storyline.)

Edited February 7, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Regina said they would wipe Roland's memory of Zarian, so nothing was explained to him. That makes it even creepier when he gives Robin's feather to Zelena. "Thanks for killing my mom, pretending to be her, raping my dad, and letting your boyfriend kill him!"

That's why that scene makes no sense. Would they even have told him he had a little sister? Especially in what little time Robin was around him after the baby was born and before his death? If they wiped his memory of Zarian, then Zelena's just some random woman who has a baby. Maybe when Roland was a little older they might have explained it, but he was way too young to get into any of the details about how this woman he doesn't know has a baby who's his sister. And the touching goodbye to the woman who murdered his mother was beyond ridiculous.

7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'd like to put each episode under a microscope and compare earlier episodes with later ones. Really get into the nitty gritty, spoilers and all. The good, the bad, and the ugly.

Sounds like fun! And a way to keep this forum going. With seven years of episodes, that kind of analysis could take us a while. We might have to see about opening specialized threads for it, or I guess just use this one, since we can't spoil future episodes in episode threads (and with Netflix, there are always new people finding a series, so that probably shouldn't change -- I'd hate to start watching a series, only to be spoiled for it).

[CCTC]

4 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

And the touching goodbye to the woman who murdered his mother was beyond ridiculous.

Especially since, if I remember correctly, he probably had more time in that episode than with his father who he did not get to say good bye to or having any touching scenes.  That seems wrong for some reason...

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

And the touching goodbye to the woman who murdered his mother was beyond ridiculous.

He was also fond of Regina who... also murdered his mother. It's worth noting that Rumple nearly killed him under Zelena's control. Oh, and one of Zelena's flying monkeys attacked him. What's with the Mills family constantly terrorizing the Hoods? Even Cora gets into it with denying Robin the chance to be with his soulmate and attempting to put his rival (Sheriff of Nottingham) into power.

Quote

If we can see the train, then we should have seen traffic on Main Street, with people from the outside world thinking it was just a road, not knowing it was going through a town, and people in town seeing cars coming and going. It might not have been a busy road, but roads are built to go to and from places, so there must have been someone at some point needing to go to or from wherever that road went. The road was still there when Storybrooke was gone, so it wasn't a curse-created road to Storybrooke. And yet, people were always walking down the middle of Main Street, like they didn't have to worry about cars rushing through.

When Ingrid came to town, did they see a crazy woman wandering around with a scroll in her hand?

Edited February 8, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

5 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

And the touching goodbye to the woman who murdered his mother was beyond ridiculous.

With this show, it's very obvious what we viewers are supposed to think or feel.  We were supposed to find the scene heartwarming, what with the super cute kid giving a Robin Hood feather to Zelena.  It's like the Writers expect us to change our feelings for a character on a dime whenever they do stuff like this, regardless of how the character acted.  They do it with Rumple all the time... for half of 6A, he's a total jerk and then there's that elevator scene with Belle which is supposed to make everything A-Ok again.  It's funny how a lot of the people on this forum often have a completely different reaction to what the intended response was.  I suppose maybe most TV writing is like this, but I still find it strange.  Like with "Bleeding Through" when Jane Espenson said they weren't interested in Leopold in that episode, which seems to assume the audience should only be interested in Cora?   But how can you dictate what the viewers care about?

Edited February 8, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

With this show, it's very obvious what we viewers are supposed to think or feel.  We were supposed to found the scene heartwarming, what with the super cute kid giving a Robin Hood feather to Zelena.  It's like the Writers expect us to change our feelings for a character on a dime by doing this, regardless of how the character acted.  They do it with Rumple all the time... for half of 6A, he's a total jerk and then there's that elevator scene with Belle which is supposed to make everything A-Ok again.  It's funny how a lot of the people on this forum often have a completely different reaction to what the intended response was.  I suppose maybe most TV writing is like this, but I still find it strange.  Like with "Bleeding Through" when Jane Espenson said they weren't interested in Leopold in that episode, which seems to assume the audience should only be interested in Cora?  

Regina's infamous lasagna scene is the clearest instance of this. That scene shoved viewers into two boxes - either you must sympathize with Regina, or you're a terrible person because look at her tears. Funny thing is, there's still quite a bit chunk of fans who fell into the first box. No matter how terrible Regina has been written, a fanbase for her sparked that had all the pity in the world for her. Every single season I saw fans ask on various social media, "When is Regina going to get her happy ending?" In a way, A&E's manipulation actually worked to some degree. But, due to their inconsistent nature, they couldn't even hold the attention of the people who loved 2B.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Regina's infamous lasagna scene is the clearest instance of this. That scene shoved viewers into two boxes - either you must sympathize with Regina, or you're a terrible person because look at her tears. Funny thing is, there's still quite a bit chunk of fans who fell into the first box. No matter how terrible Regina has been written, a fanbase for her sparked that had all the pity in the world for her. Every single season I saw fans ask on various social media, "When is Regina going to get her happy ending?" In a way, A&E's manipulation actually worked to some degree. But, due to their inconsistent nature, they couldn't even hold the attention of the people who loved 2B.

What always made me crazy is that they would manage to wear me down eventually.  I'd get to a point where I would accept it because what other choice was there. None.  But just when I would do that, they'd throw out some flashback or twist that undercut their entire manipulative agenda.

I'd finally accept Regina has been accepted by the Charmings and part of the "family" and then she would murder a village of people that supported Snow or something and I'd be furious all over again with Regina's unearned redemption and Snow's lack of loyalty to the people that helped her and general cheerleading of Regina.

I might have gone along with whatever they were trying to sell if they weren't ping ponging back and forth the whole time.  It was the problem of wanting to have Regina and Evil Queen being both hero and villain.  That's why they ultimately split them.  Its too bad they weren't good enough with character development to make one good character instead of two one dimensional characters.

[Rumsy4]

36 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

That's why they ultimately split them. 

And yet, they still couldn't bear not to give the Split Evil Queen a crappy redemption and a boyfriend to boot. 

[Camera One]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

And yet, they still couldn't bear not to give the Split Evil Queen a crappy redemption and a boyfriend to boot. 

Yep.  And they couldn't have waited to do this in Season 7 and actually use the characters who were going to exit the canvas forever. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Rumsy4 said:

And yet, they still couldn't bear not to give the Split Evil Queen a crappy redemption and a boyfriend to boot. 

On the flip side of that, I'm gob smacked that they haven't reverted to Roni doing Evil Queen stuff or EQ flashbacks.  Even WishRealm EQ didn't really do much campy wickedness.

It makes me think that LP really prefers the heroine role and that may have played into a lot more into the direction of the show than just A&E.  It would help explain why they were so consistently inconsistent about it.

[Camera One]

I see a lot of comments on websites that the show should have been cancelled last year, etc.  While that would have made more sense since half the cast left, I think it's unrealistic to think that Season 6 or the finale would have been any better.  A&E would still have waited until the wire, with no urgency to provide a proper ending.  Because they already see their Season 6 ending as "perfect".  90% of the finale would still have been the same.  At most, we would have gotten an extra 2-3 scenes, to replace the Adult Henry/Lucy ones, which could have been license for more Evil Queen time.  This season's stuff hasn't been good, but I don't feel it does much more damage to the show than some of the worst stuff in Season 6 (retcons with Snowing and Baelfire). 

Now if ABC had specified right from the start of Season 6 that it has to be the final season and didn't give A&E any option to continue, they might have made more of an effort to bring back more guest stars from previous seasons for cameos (and I'm not talking about August).

Edited February 8, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I'm grateful S7 happened, because I view it wave slightly better than S6. Arguably, it has tied the character stories up more neatly. (Other than Snowing's.) I'd prefer a CS baby and an Up ripoff than a rushed wedding or Belle twisting her ankle, respectively. Now, there's aspects of S7 I don't like involving the former mains, such as whatever the hell they've done so far with Regina and Zelena, but I hate S6 enough to have hope S7 will come through just a little bit more. At least we've got more material to discuss and think about when viewing the OUAT canon in retrospect. I'll bet the S7 finale is less offensive than S6's.

You have no idea how much I loathe the S6 finale. I've heard people say it was a great ending. No. It wasn't. It was garbage. I refuse to romanticize it.

Edited February 8, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I haven't even watched the S6 finale. It sounded awful and I thought it would taint the last few positive feelings I had about the show to watch it. As far as I'm concerned Emma & Hook got married end of story. The Black Fairy wisely decided Storybrooke was a waste of time and not worth ruling, so she left.

Season 6 was mostly garbage. I was bored. I became apathetic about everything. That's when I know a show has lost me. I stopped caring and realized I was only watching out of habit.

[Camera One]

I hated the Season 6 finale too, but mainly because it was unoriginal, boring, nonsensical, a retread, a waste of basically the final two hours of the show, with a 4 minute ending montage which was unsatisfying, pathetic and dumb.  However, I don't think it ruins the show or anything, because everything that happened was pointless.  Instead of spending the last two hours together, Emma was segregated from everyone else except Henry and Gold.  This was very similar to the Season 5 finale, where Emma was segregated from everyone else except Henry, Regina and Gold.  You'd think, in the final two hours with the whole cast, you'd have everyone fighting together.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

16 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I haven't even watched the S6 finale. It sounded awful and I thought it would taint the last few positive feelings I had about the show to watch it. As far as I'm concerned Emma & Hook got married end of story. The Black Fairy wisely decided Storybrooke was a waste of time and not worth ruling, so she left.

Season 6 was mostly garbage. I was bored. I became apathetic about everything. That's when I know a show has lost me. I stopped caring and realized I was only watching out of habit.

 

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

I hated the Season 6 finale too, but mainly because it was unoriginal, boring, nonsensical, a retread, a waste of basically the final two hours of the show, with a 4 minute ending montage which was unsatisfying, pathetic and dumb.  However, I don't think it ruins the show or anything, because everything that happened was pointless.  Instead of spending the last two hours together, Emma was segregated from everyone else except Henry and Gold.  This was very similar to the Season 5 finale, where Emma was segregated from everyone else except Henry, Regina and Gold.  You'd think, in the final two hours with the whole cast, you'd have everyone fighting together.

 

That was when the show lost me too. Season Six. It was all big pile of nothing. Nothing happened and nothing was really resolved. These writers can't be bothered to put together one story. One with a beginning, middle and end. Land of Untold Stories? Never finished, never bothered to explain why they came or why those characters. The Evil Queen? Again nothing happened except for yet another sleeping curse. She walked around. She got her nails done. She was turned into a snake. Aladdin, again nothing happened, no story, nothing. The Black Fairy? Nothing about her made any sense. We got the stupid and pointless reveal that Hook killed Charming's father. No reason for that twist. By the finale I was done with the show. Even if Emma had stayed I still would have quit. I was tired of seeing her sideline for Regina, I was tired of Snow and Charming being sideline and really sick of Regina and Rumple. And Henry. Unless A&E pulled off a finale like the season three there was no way the finale would keep me and it didn't. They knew four big characters were leaving. They chose not to wrap any thing up for them, they chose to continue to give more time for Regina and the Evil Queen, and once again Rumple refusing to help anyone until he decided to kill his mother. Which he wanted to do anyway. But gets declared a hero and invited to dinner. All the finale did was give me more reasons to quit.

Edited February 9, 2018 by andromeda331

[jhlipton]

Season 6 ended with the wedding, right? Emma vanquished the Black Fairy with the Power of Song and then everyone celebrated.

That's the way I remember it!

[Rumsy4]

As far as I am concerned, after Zeus sent Killian back from the Underworld, Killian proposed to Emma, and then they got married. Then we skipped to 7.02 where we heard they were having a baby. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

My current "mental fanfic" that I use to amuse myself during bouts of insomnia is an alternate season six that actually starts before the season five finale. When Zeus resurrects Hook, he also gives him his hand back because either he's making a soul corporeal and there's no reason the soul wouldn't have both hands or he's healing a corpse that's been dead for months and if you can heal that and all the unhealable wounds, you can give a hand back. That means that the hand is a tangible sign that Hook's a new man after being revived, but it's also part of what he's struggling with after being brought back to life -- he's been "Captain Hook" for so long, but if he isn't Captain Hook anymore, then who is he? I wouldn't think that he'd spend a season wallowing in existential angst like Buffy did because his death experience was very different. For him, a god choosing to bring him back to life as a reward for a service he did might have actually stopped a lot of the brooding. He might still feel bad about individual bad things he did, but he might finally get over the worst of his guilt complex and his "I'm the worst person who ever lived" attitude. Still, figuring out what he is if he isn't the horrible person he always believed he was might have been something of a challenge, and then there's the trauma of everything he went through. He ends up seeing Archie after he and Belle get into an argument about her snoring and his waking up yelling from nightmares (yeah, Belle still goes to live on the Jolly Roger because I liked that, but we actually see them talking more). There's a bit of humor as he tries out various personas and different types of clothes and jobs as he figures out who and what he wants to be as he settles in this world.

There's no stupid "destroying magic" plot and trip to New York, no split Reginas. They do go to the Land of Untold Stories because I think it looked cool, but it's Emma, Hook, and Emma's parents who all end up there together for some other reason, and they actually do have an adventure there. Rumple hijacks their return portal to team up with Hyde, so we get the Untold Stories people in Storybrooke -- but they all matter. There are culture clashes and fish out of water problems, not just people in costume in the background. There's no prophecy of doom or shaking hands for Emma.

[KingOfHearts]

19 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Rumple hijacks their return portal to team up with Hyde, so we get the Untold Stories people in Storybrooke -- but they all matter. There are culture clashes and fish out of water problems, not just people in costume in the background. There's no prophecy of doom or shaking hands for Emma.

The shaking hands were so unnecessary. The LoUS people could have created a lot of conflict because they could have been literally anyone. Hook's half-brother is here now, what do we do about that? Clorinda and Tremaine sure caused a lot of trouble for Ashley. Heck, even Monte Cristo's mission to assassinate the Charmings wasn't a terrible plot point. (It just needed to be with a less famous character, since his context was forsaken.) The Aladdin story should have been in its own arc.  Hyde should have lasted longer than four episodes, Jafar needed a bigger part, and I'm not even sure what to do with the Black Fairy. She could have used a complete overhaul, starting with NOT making her Rumple's mother.

With so many pointless subplots taken out of the equation, the writers would actually have to flesh out their main plots... oh no! 

Edited February 8, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[PixiePaws1]

15 hours ago, Camera One said:

I hated the Season 6 finale too, but mainly because it was unoriginal, boring, nonsensical, a retread, a waste of basically the final two hours of the show, with a 4 minute ending montage which was unsatisfying, pathetic and dumb.  However, I don't think it ruins the show or anything, because everything that happened was pointless.  Instead of spending the last two hours together, Emma was segregated from everyone else except Henry and Gold.  This was very similar to the Season 5 finale, where Emma was segregated from everyone else except Henry, Regina and Gold.  You'd think, in the final two hours with the whole cast, you'd have everyone fighting together.

Couldn't agree more!!!

..and Regina giving Emma the 'find another way' speech instead of her husband who has supported her through EVERY SINGLE SELF DOUBT moment since he fell in love with her...or maybe her mother?? Father??....made me want to projectile vomit!!!

Then there is welcoming arsehole Rumple to family dinner....aaarrgghh!!

[CCTC]

15 minutes ago, PixiePaws1 said:

Then there is welcoming arsehole Rumple to family dinner....aaarrgghh!!

While we joke about a lot of the flaws of this show, I found Rump;e's latest redemption disturbing.   He was so abusive to Belle the beginning of season 6, both physically and emotionally threatening, and then after a promising episode or two where it looked like Belle might realize she was in an abusive relationship and stick up for herself, she slid back into "there is good inside of him".  One thing that the show captured realistically was the cycle of abuse between these characters -Belle thinking if she loved him he could change - Rumple promising to change emotionally manipulating Belle to return to him, only to revert to form almost immediately.  The fact that this happened multiple times really made the final redemption ring false.  You know if they would not have done a reboot he would have been sneaking behind Belle's back by episode 7 x 3.   The glossing over the (in some ways pretty realistic) abusive relationship might have pushed me away from the show as much as the cast departures.

Rumple being at the Last Supper rang false in two ways - I don't think everyone would have really wanted them there, but even more likely, he himself never would have wanted to be there.  Even in his best days, he never really liked any of them and would not have blinked an eye if anything would have happened to any of them.  He would have been OK sacrificing Emma about 15 minutes before that scene.   Being that they thought the show was worthy of mimicking "The Last Supper", I am surprised they never did a Madonna or Joan of Arc framing for Regina at some point,.   Perhaps copying the Pietà as Robin died in her arms -- or looking like some noble martyr, beautifully back lit as she offers to sacrifice herself for the greater good.

I actually thought Season 6 had some good episodes and some good scenes in some mediocre episodes, but as a whole it was pretty disjointed and none of the arcs really had  a decent pay-off, including the final battle which was pretty much not an epic battle.  I still cannot believe they could not even have the Clone Queen have her come-comeuppance (ok, maybe I can).  Do they realize, that while people like an occasional redemption story, they really like to see a villain get his or her just desserts.