S03.E07: Dating in the Light

[orangeiguana]

15 hours ago, Impatient said:

Has anyone else noticed Jeanette going more and more "hollywood"?  The glasses with the bedazzled frames, the holes in her jeans, the platform shoes.  I mean she has always been out there for a 50 year old woman, but she is pushing the envelope!  Just another symptom of her need for attention?


 

OK, I'm in the TV industry and live in Hollywood. Nobody dresses this way out here or has the weird glasses. And I'm in my 50s. She just seems...an outlier. Really, no one in Hollywood would be caught dead with those silly specs.

[ClareWalks]

9 hours ago, Impatient said:

Clarewalks, I totally agree with you, but I also believe that, in light of the underskirting issue, stalls might also not be the answer.  Remember the congressman from Oregon who was forced to resign after sexually soliciting in the Minneapolis airport men's room, using tapping on the floor between stalls?

Not stalls, single-stall bathrooms, where the entire bathroom is one toilet/sink and is lockable :) They are already a lot of places, usually called "family restrooms," and at most gas stations.

[orangeiguana]

3 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

Not stalls, single-stall bathrooms, where the entire bathroom is one toilet/sink and is lockable :) They are already a lot of places, usually called "family restrooms," and at most gas stations.

Yes! One-holers. Or like a restaurant near me, that has a unisex sink area but floor-to-ceiling individual toilet rooms. 

[Impatient]

One thing that really bothers me now is how little they are doing to help Nicole look more convincingly feminine.

I remember reading once, that Marlo Thomas had personal approval for every actress cast on "That girl" back in the 60's. She also had rules about being the only one allowed to wear certain colors (orange and green were reserved exclusively for Marlo Thomas).  She wanted to ensure that she was, in every episode, the "prettiest young thing".  

I can't help but wonder if Jazz is similarly treated.  Not suggesting SHE is controlling this, but the producers are.  It is as though every other girl seen on that show HAS to be less attractive than Jazz.  Nicole, Jazz's cis friends.  They are always rather plain, certainly not with styled hair or makeup.  Or clothes.  

It is starting to grate on me that this spoiled girl gets PEDICURES for herself and her friends at age 16, eats out all of the time, has a closet full of  boutique clothing she can no longer fit into, and gets to be the prettiest girl at every ball on top of all of that.  And does this with her dad's money.  She never ever has to consider whether she can afford something, but is depicted as being extraordinarily pretty to boot.  Just how important is it for Jazz to be "super girl"?  I KNOW there are prettier girls than Jazz in her school, in her crowds.....  and we never ever see them.

It all just feels so fake.  

 

[orangeiguana]

7 minutes ago, Impatient said:

One thing that really bothers me now is how little they are doing to help Nicole look more convincingly feminine.

I missed something. Who is Nicole? Do you mean Noelle, maybe?

Edited August 5, 2017 by orangeiguana

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, Impatient said:

It is starting to grate on me that this spoiled girl gets PEDICURES for herself and her friends at age 16,

What's odd with getting pedicures with your friends at 16? Of all the things Jazz does that's one of the most "typical" things about her.

I liked getting pedicures with my friends at that age....

[Impatient]

It just seems to me to be an expensive thing to do to treat 2 friends to pedicures.  when I was 16, I painted my toenails but would never have had the nerve to ask my dad to pay for a pedicure much less for that of my friends, too.  

Maybe it's just another show set-up scenario, but if it's real, ---- especially in an economy where 58% of the population survives on household incomes below $30K/year ----- it seems totally extravagant to me.  And yes Orangeiguana, I meant Noelle.  Sorry.  We do seem to make that mistake here a lot.

[Scarlett45]

5 minutes ago, Impatient said:

It just seems to me to be an expensive thing to do to treat 2 friends to pedicures.  when I was 16, I painted my toenails but would never have had the nerve to ask my dad to pay for a pedicure much less for that of my friends, too.  

Maybe it's just another show set-up scenario, but if it's real, ---- especially in an economy where 58% of the population survives on household incomes below $30K/year ----- it seems totally extravagant to me.  And yes Orangeiguana, I meant Noelle.  Sorry.  We do seem to make that mistake here a lot.

Ah I understand what you're saying. I don't think it was set up or particularly extravagant.

At that age my Mom would take my friends and I to get mani/pedis and other Moms would take me with their daughters etc. I think it depends on where you grow up/your social circle. 

My friends and I also took ourselves to get our nails done with our own money.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Scarlett45

[Cotypubby]

12 hours ago, orangeiguana said:

 

Anyway, Jazz's narrative is disturbing, and this person (I'm not going to be bullied into using the pronouns) has been railroaded into a strange life during the formative years. My heart goes out to Jazz, and hope Jazz has access to whatever will enhance Jazz's adult life.

You refuse to use the word "she" when discussing Jazz and claim you're being "bullied" to do so, clearly your heart does not actually "go out to Jazz" or you would realize how despicable that is.

And do not claim to speak for all women on the bathroom issue. You don't. I don't care one bit who is in the stall next to me, and neither do any of my female friends.

For those of you who said the women's room should only be for post-op TGs, what about transmen? And you think someone who looks like Jazz wouldn't cause upset by using the men's room?

[Otter]

Well, I just watched this episode.  I'm sorry that the word "haters" is hurled at people with such a broad brush.  If one demands tolerance, tolerance must be given.  Having a difference of opinion, or the misuse of pronouns does not make one a "hater" and Jazz does the TG community no favors.  There are indeed real "haters" in the world, but this episode makes me believe that Jazz now thinks Grandpa is a hater.  Anyway, building bridges is better than burning them, including calling all politically conservative people "ignorant".   

Shane is a nice kid, but I have to wonder how staged the date was.  But how insulting to him that Jeanette didn't ask him inside to wait, but maybe more evidence of staging since the camera and sound crews were all set up.  Lol, Jazz's table manners showed up again, unfortunately.

As an aside, I had no idea who this Tomi person is, so googled her.  She's like Ann Coulter's little sister, a bomb thrower and laughing all the way to the bank.  

[Impatient]

Well Cotypubby, my suggestion was that we have bathrooms with fully enclosed stalls with doors, as you find in upscale restaurants or in hospitals.  The only alternative might be to have separate bathrooms for Transgender people OR make the rule that ladies' rooms be used by post-operative transgender people and pre-pubescent children.  Now I admit the issue of Jazz or Noelle or any other pre-surgical, trangender adolescent using a men's room is extremely scary and I don't think that is safe or acceptable either.  But if any of my suggestions is followed, pre-surgery transgender individuals would have their privacy and safety without being in any way in jeopardy.  

But remember, the same ugliness that Jazz and Noelle might face is pretty routinely faced by almost all women at some point in their lives, so I do think their rights are as important as Jazz's and Noelle's.  

[ClareWalks]

26 minutes ago, Impatient said:

OR make the rule that ladies' rooms be used by post-operative transgender people and pre-pubescent children.

The problem with this is that it would be absolutely impossible to enforce. Even if there was a doorman at every public bathroom checking IDs, you can get your gender changed on that without having bottom surgery. You'd have to literally succumb to a pants-dropping genital examination by a medical professional every time you went into a bathroom.

[Desert Rat]

The bathroom issue it's getting absurd.  There are approximately 330,000,000 people living in the U.S.  when you consider all the school's, government buildings, restaurants, shopping malls, gas stations, and all the places that have restrooms for employees, I would guess that there are hundreds of millions of restroom facilities in this country.  

The most generous estimate of transgender individuals is 1,400,000.  That means that the TG community is only about 0.004% of the total population.  That is statically insignificant.  If spread equally among each of the 50 states, there would be 28,000 transgender people in each state. In my large city, that is a neighborhood.  We have stadiums that are more than twice that size. 

So, even though this population is so tiny it would only fill a small city, the transgender community is asking for access to the bathrooms of their choice, without regard to the safety and privacy concerns of non-transgender individuals. And a compromise (which I understand is not acceptable to TG people) of separate stalls and wholly separate facilities for every individual ignores the enormous cost of such a change. Are we really expected to change hundreds of millions of restrooms because a few people feel uncomfortable with their own bodies?  Does that even make sense?  Can businesses afford this?  This is not the same as modifying restroom to accommodate wheelchair access,so please don't respond with that argument. Adding wheelchair access involves only expanding an existing stall and raising the toilet seat.  It does not require modifying every stall or adding a separate restroom. 

Businesses, especially small businesses, are struggling enough without forcing them to make radical restroom changes on the unlikely chance someone claiming to be transgender comes to their business. 

[ClareWalks]

5 minutes ago, Desert Rat said:

And a compromise (which I understand is not acceptable to TG people) of separate stalls and wholly separate facilities for every individual ignores the enormous cost of such a change. Are we really expected to change hundreds of millions of restrooms because a few people feel uncomfortable with their own bodies?

The compromise is actually to let transgender people just continue using the public restroom of their choice, just like they've been doing for decades and nobody seemed to care. Also, consider this, folks: registered sex offenders can use public bathrooms as comfortably as they want. And yes, those sex offenders may also rape other males. 

This whole "we're gonna get raped in the bathroom" thing is just getting to be a ridiculous level of paranoia. As if rapists adhere to a strict moral code about whether they enter their appropriate restroom. I have been trying to be as diplomatic as possible as I understand there is discomfort, but seriously. If a bathroom is so sketchy you think you might get raped in there, don't use it.

Edited August 6, 2017 by ClareWalks

[Desert Rat]

15 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

The compromise is actually to let transgender people just continue using the public restroom of their choice, just like they've been doing for decades and nobody seemed to care. Also, consider this, folks: registered sex offenders can use public bathrooms as comfortably as they want. And yes, those sex offenders may also rape other males. 

This whole "we're gonna get raped in the bathroom" thing is just getting to be a ridiculous level of paranoia. As if rapists adhere to a strict moral code about whether they enter their appropriate restroom. I have been trying to be as diplomatic as possible as I understand there is discomfort, but seriously. If a bathroom is so sketchy you think you might get raped in there, don't use it.

Rape is not the issue.  Also, TG do not want the status quo.  The status quo is no men in the women's room. PERIOD. The TG community wants to allow any man in a woman's restroom who merely claims to want to be a woman.  But there is no standard. This would allow perverts into the women's restroom, and then if called out on it, they can simply claim to be transitioning to female, even if it is a complete lie.  Why? Because there is no standard for what is or is not transgender.  

[Sew Sumi]

With that logic, lord help a FTM transgender forced to use a men's bathroom where there are potential perverts EVERYWHERE. My husband refuses to use urinals. I guess that makes him a target for perverts in the men's room, probably from the predator gays. Yes, that used to be a thing. My husband has had no incidents, and we've been to plenty of stadium events in the last 25 years. 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Sew Sumi

[possibilities]

4 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

Even if there was a doorman at every public bathroom checking IDs, you can get your gender changed on that without having bottom surgery. You'd have to literally succumb to a pants-dropping genital examination by a medical professional every time you went into a bathroom.

And that means checks on everyone, right-- cis and trans alike, because you never know who might be harboring the wrong genitals until they're exposed. Or do we wait til someone accuses you, and THEN you have to show your genitals?

Forget your i.d? No toilet for you! Bladder about to burst? Too bad!!

There is a lot of violence AGAINST trans people, let's not forget about that, either.

And if it's all about the danger of cis men hurting women, maybe we should just bar cis men from bathrooms, since they're the real problem here. We can start issuing three forms of I.D. now, with the following options: "potentially rapey cis man" or "easily raped cis woman" or  "trans person of any gender, more likely than any demographic to be murdered by a stranger". Must prove full bladder or emergent poop situation to gain entry to public facilities if cis male since you're most likely to rape, or if you are trans of any gender because people are scared of you.

At some point, we need to look at the difference between our conditioned panic and what is really a threat and come up with real solutions that really protect people, without collectively punishing the innocent.

As a cis lesbian, I admit I don't want to see a penis, ever. Even when they aren't threatening, I find them ugly. But I am confident we can actually solve real problems of safety-- and protect all people, trans people and cis people, if we don't just compete for whose safety matters and whose is acceptable collateral damage, and instead look at it as a problem of violence, not a problem of identity. We shouldn't be profiling people. We should be protecting people.

My off the top of my head idea is that if you are a female with a penis, use a stall in the bathroom. I doubt that's controversial, since it's what cis women do, too. Locker rooms can provide some privacy screens in otherwise open locker areas, so anyone who's shy or has dysphoria or wants to be hidden for any reason can change clothing without being seen. It's a non-judgmental way of allowing for modesty, keeps trans people of all genders safe from attacks (because cis people won't see their genitals and freak out), but can also be used by someone who is just modest for any reason, so it doesn't make trans people a target, either. Maybe someone is just shy.

As far as peeping is concerned, anyone of any gender or genital type who's hanging around a locker room just looking at others, needs to be ejected by management. If you're in there actively using the facilities, you should be in and out quickly, doing your business and minding your business, and keeping your eyes where they belong.

Edited August 6, 2017 by possibilities

[Cotypubby]

5 minutes ago, possibilities said:

And that means checks on everyone, right-- cis and trans alike, because you never know who might be harboring the wrong genitals until they're exposed. Or do we wait til someone accuses you, and THEN you have to show your genitals?

There have already been instances of masculine looking women barred from using the women's room and forced by the police to prove they were actually female.

But I'm guessing that kind of stuff doesn't really bother the bathroom busybodies, since they're generally the kind of people who think women should have long hair and dress feminine to begin with.

[Desert Rat]

1 hour ago, Cotypubby said:

There have already been instances of masculine looking women barred from using the women's room and forced by the police to prove they were actually female.

But I'm guessing that kind of stuff doesn't really bother the bathroom busybodies, since they're generally the kind of people who think women should have long hair and dress feminine to begin with.

Actually, after watching Jazz, it seems that MTF transgender people seem to think that being a woman is all about dresses, breasts, long hair, and other so called feminine things. But that is the problem with Jazz, Noelle and the others. Being a woman is not those things.  We feminists fought hard and rejected these limited notions of womanhood. Now men are trying to push women back to the dark ages. Jazz has no concept of womanhood.  It is not boobs, vaginas, pedicures, dresses and long hair.  As a feminist, I reject Jazz's perception of womanhood.  

[Impatient]

Clarewalks, in regard to enforcability, i was referring to the appalling men who might attempt to claim transgenderedness as an excuse for using the ladies' room, when really they were there for perverse pleasure.  In those cases, by making the requirement more than just a personal claim about one's feelings or emotional state, an adult penis would get you locked up.  And in a way, that would protect people like Jazz too, as she clearly does not have a penis capable of rape.  Although, i admit,  are talking about things that do not just mean rape.  Under-skirting, masturbation, sexual assault not involving rape, etc..  

 

This is actually something that has confused me:  jazz was asked by more than 1 doctor if she is orgasmic, if she had, as yet, had an orgasm.  Does that mean that her micropenis is capable of giving her an orgasm?  I thought part of the issue here is that the nerve endings had not formed because there had been no puberty.  

 

The person i worry about is Noelle, or Jazz's other friend from the support group (was her name Lynn?).  I want them to be safe and worry that these bathroom issues, NO MATTER WHAT THE LAWS ARE, would lead to danger for them.  

Desert rat, you are off by two decimal places.  Not 4 in 100,000, but 3 in a thousand.  The Williams Institute at the UCLA law school did the math.  Your figuree support that too.  About 1/300= ~0.3%.

[Granny58]

6 hours ago, Desert Rat said:

Actually, after watching Jazz, it seems that MTF transgender people seem to think that being a woman is all about dresses, breasts, long hair, and other so called feminine things. But that is the problem with Jazz, Noelle and the others. Being a woman is not those things.  We feminists fought hard and rejected these limited notions of womanhood. Now men are trying to push women back to the dark ages. Jazz has no concept of womanhood.  It is not boobs, vaginas, pedicures, dresses and long hair.  As a feminist, I reject Jazz's perception of womanhood.  

Interesting comment...which wheels us right back around to what does it mean to "feel" like either gender?  I stated somewhere on the IAJ board that I don't know what it feels like to be a woman, I just feel like me.  I believe (though haven't tested) that I could be dressed as a male, fake beard and all, and go about my business and not really care if I was perceived as male.   And my male cousin says the same thing, he just feels like himself.  I can understand both sides of the bathroom issue.  Perhaps if there was some way to better understand this first hurdle, we could envision better solutions to the bathroom situation.  

Edited August 6, 2017 by Granny58

[Impatient]

The question of the statistics of danger to the trans community motivated me to do a little research.  Someone here made the statement that trans women were in off-the-charts greater danger of being murdered by a stranger.  In fact, while tossed about a great deal, that statement has not been substantiated by any factual statistic.  I refer you to an excellent analysis of the data here:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/05/murder-statistics-of-transgender-people/

 

given that there are 333 cis people using a bathroom for every trans person, it does seem to me that cis women's safety is the greater public health priority.  And when it comes right down to it, I am guessing the objection to using a trans specified bathroom would be that it reveals one's gender at birth, when what is being attempted is to "pass".  

 

For Jazz, this is not an issue.  She passes flawlessly.  But for a Noelle, there is going to be great difficulty in passing.  No matter what the bathroom designation.  The trans community needs to come up with reasonable solutions in my view that take into account more than their own concerns for their own safety.  It is in their own best interests to do so:  imagine the anti-trans backlash that would happen if a child is ever raped in a public bathroom by a man claiming to be transgender.  So perhaps by having gender neutral bathrooms in large public spaces that can afford them, we achieve the greatest degree of safety, though forcing some trans people to acknowledge tha they don't convincingly pass for the gender they feel themselves to be.

[Granny58]

1 hour ago, Impatient said:

For Jazz, this is not an issue.  She passes flawlessly.  But for a Noelle, there is going to be great difficulty in passing.  No matter what the bathroom designation.

Even for a Noelle, I don't think I would be wary in the bathroom.  It is obvious that she is TRYING and takes it seriously.  But as someone said (Orangiguana?), what is the standard?   There used to be a guy at a local retailer who dressed as a woman, but you could clearly see it was a man.  I suspect it was because he couldn't afford the treatments, BUT, it is a simple enough thing for a guy to throw on a dress and lipstick and say he's TG and USE that to enter women's private areas.   But if the climate is such that you can't say anything about it (the Planet Fitness situation comes to mind), then you're screwed.   

[Scarlett45]

22 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

Even for a Noelle, I don't think I would be wary in the bathroom.  It is obvious that she is TRYING and takes it seriously.  But as someone said (Orangiguana?), what is the standard?   There used to be a guy at a local retailer who dressed as a woman, but you could clearly see it was a man.  I suspect it was because he couldn't afford the treatments, BUT, it is a simple enough thing for a guy to throw on a dress and lipstick and say he's TG and USE that to enter women's private areas.   But if the climate is such that you can't say anything about it (the Planet Fitness situation comes to mind), then you're screwed.   

The bathroom legislation bills are a topic of conversation in my Sib Group as most caregivers are women- if these bills pass they would be unable to take their brothers into the women's restroom with them. My disabled sibling is a sister so I have never had this issue, but based on stories I have heard from my other Sib friends, while most of the time there is little or no commentary regarding their adult brothers being in the restroom (especially if they "look obviously disabled") there are instances of unkind people calling mentally disabled men "retarded freaks", making them cry, and causing a bigger ruckus and inconveience for everyone because they've now had an accident. While most people are understanding there are always the assholes (that's life). 

Society being as it is, there is little discussion of keeping transmen out of men's rooms. Personally I have no problem with individuals using the restroom they feel most comfortable. If I see an adult of the opposite gender in the restroom my thought is that they have a reason to be there. I'd don't consider public restrooms or changing facilities places of absolute privacy (compared to a private residence, a hotel room or a Drs office).  I do wonder why mixed gender restrooms (not shower/changing facilities) with stalls are not more the norm. 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Scarlett45

[orangeiguana]

17 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

You refuse to use the word "she" when discussing Jazz and claim you're being "bullied" to do so, clearly your heart does not actually "go out to Jazz" or you would realize how despicable that is.

OK then, my heart doesn't go out to Jazz. Jazz is a spoiled brat and is incredibly inconsiderate to those around Jazz, without regard to biological women, the feminism we worked so hard to attain, and women's concerns about privacy and safety. Apparently we don't matter at all.

[Granny58]

48 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

The bathroom legislation bills are a topic of conversation in my Sib Group as most caregivers are women- if these bills pass they would be unable to take their brothers into the women's restroom with them. My disabled sibling is a sister so I have never had this issue, but based on stories I have heard from my other Sib friends, while most of the time there is little or no commentary regarding their adult brothers being in the restroom (especially if they "look obviously disabled") there are instances of unkind people calling mentally disabled men "retarded freaks", making them cry, and causing a bigger ruckus and inconveience for everyone because they've now had an accident. While most people are understanding there are always the assholes (that's life). 

Society being as it is, there is little discussion of keeping transmen out of men's rooms. Personally I have no problem with individuals using the restroom they feel most comfortable. If I see an adult of the opposite gender in the restroom my thought is that they have a reason to be there. I'd don't consider public restrooms or changing facilities places of absolute privacy (compared to a private residence, a hotel room or a Drs office).  I do wonder why mixed gender restrooms (not shower/changing facilities) with stalls are not more the norm. 

I know I keep bringing up my English side of the family, but they are the ones who give me a different perspective...so here I go again.  A while back when this was more in the news we discussed it.  And they couldn't understand why it was an issue.  Until my female cousin came here and saw the huge gaps between doors and partitions, the giant spaces underneath and doors that don't top 6 feet high.  When I was there the stalls were MUCH more private.  Not certain if I was just lucky or if the entire culture is geared that way, but I mentioned that if bathrooms here were like bathrooms there it would be a different story.  

 

I don't remember this being a topic for most of my life, until about the past 5 years or less.  So what has changed?   Where did TG people before?

Edited August 6, 2017 by Granny58

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, Granny58 said:

I know I keep bringing up my English side of the family, but they are the ones who give me a different perspective...so here I go again.  A while back when this was more in the news we discussed it.  And they couldn't understand why it was an issue.  Until my female cousin came here and saw the huge gaps between doors and partitions, the giant spaces underneath and doors that don't top 6 feet high.  When I was there the stalls were MUCH more private.  Not certain if I was just lucky or if the entire culture is geared that way, but I mentioned that if bathrooms here were like bathrooms there it would be a different story.  

 

I don't remember this being a topic for most of my life, until about the past 5 years or less.  So what has changed?   Where did TG people before?

(Italics mine)- Transgender people have been using the public restrooms that they feel most comfortable in- what's changed is that the Transgender community has been more vocal and as such there is more vocal opposition. 

I hate making this analogy, but in the many decades where "homosexual behavior" was illegal in many states, there were still gay people, still gay couples with families and kids, working, living life, being a part of their community, but there was less public (or no) discussion of the rights of same sex couples because people didn't want to be arrested/backlashed/fired/physically attacked etc. In a world where you can be thrown in jail for being gay, you're less likely argue about your right to get married/inherit property etc. 

[Kid]

17 hours ago, Otter said:

 

Well, I just watched this episode.  I'm sorry that the word "haters" is hurled at people with such a broad brush.  If one demands tolerance, tolerance must be given.  Having a difference of opinion, or the misuse of pronouns does not make one a "hater" and Jazz does the TG community no favors.  There are indeed real "haters" in the world, but this episode makes me believe that Jazz now thinks Grandpa is a hater.  Anyway, building bridges is better than burning them, including calling all politically conservative people "ignorant".   

 

Unfortunately, this is a common trait among those who demand tolerance today.   And this may all be staged, but Jazz and her mother are starting to get on my nerves for exactly this reason. Just because people do not agree with them does not mean  ignorance.

[Impatient]

Amen to the posters objecting to the casual use of the term "haters".  Seeking answers is so often condemned as being ignorant and worse, malicious, when  in fact, nothing could be further from the truth.  Jazz's grandfather is a perfect example.  

 

Reasonable discourse is only possible with true mutual respect.  

And for me, that means, giving people the benefit of the doubt.

[Desert Rat]

3 hours ago, Impatient said:

Clarewalks, in regard to enforcability, i was referring to the appalling men who might attempt to claim transgenderedness as an excuse for using the ladies' room, when really they were there for perverse pleasure.  In those cases, by making the requirement more than just a personal claim about one's feelings or emotional state, an adult penis would get you locked up.  And in a way, that would protect people like Jazz too, as she clearly does not have a penis capable of rape.  Although, i admit,  are talking about things that do not just mean rape.  Under-skirting, masturbation, sexual assault not involving rape, etc..  

 

This is actually something that has confused me:  jazz was asked by more than 1 doctor if she is orgasmic, if she had, as yet, had an orgasm.  Does that mean that her micropenis is capable of giving her an orgasm?  I thought part of the issue here is that the nerve endings had not formed because there had been no puberty.  

 

The person i worry about is Noelle, or Jazz's other friend from the support group (was her name Lynn?).  I want them to be safe and worry that these bathroom issues, NO MATTER WHAT THE LAWS ARE, would lead to danger for them.  

Desert rat, you are off by two decimal places.  Not 4 in 100,000, but 3 in a thousand.  The Williams Institute at the UCLA law school did the math.  Your figuree support that too.  About 1/300= ~0.3%.

Please explain how my math is wrong.  There are 330 million people in US.  There are approximately 1.4 million transgender people according to the most generous estimate I have seem.

1,400,000/330,000,000 = 0.00424242

That's a very small number. As I said, less than 28,000 people per state, if distributed evenly.  

While I have compassion for transgender people, I we need to be careful making such radical changes to laws regarding restrooms that affect everyone to accommodate the feelings of a statically insignificant number of people. At what financial cost?  At what cost to our privacy.

Again, let me be clear, I am NOT concerned about Jazz, Noelle or other sincerely transgender MTF people using the women's room.  My concern are the fakers, those predators who will pretend to be transgender, to gain access to the women's room.  The law demanded by the TG community would allow all men access to women's rooms by simply stating, "I feel like a woman today."  Even if they are are not.  Because there is no standard, there is no way to prevent these people from using the women's room.   

[orangeiguana]

41 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

The bathroom legislation bills are a topic of conversation in my Sib Group as most caregivers are women- if these bills pass they would be unable to take their brothers into the women's restroom with them.

All of this is so laissez faire. I can't imagine anyone would have more trouble with a Sib bathroom visit than a woman bringing a young son inside, although I've had my fill of the little punks crawling under the stall... But thank you for bringing up this topic of which I was previously unaware. There is something nefarious about the legislation of all this...why can't all of these groups quietly use the bathroom as they always have? I recently spoke with a college friend who'd been male during school and later transitioned surgically to female. She said the most horrifying instance of using a private area was trying on clothes in the communal Loehmann's dressing rooms. I bet any biological woman would agree! ACK! The problem is, once it's legislated, men can, and have, taken advantage of the law. They don't need to don a dress or lipstick (not sure how that makes someone female) just go inside and say you're female. And just try calling 911 on that. Yeah yeah assault is illegal. The cops have much more important things to do and by the time the guy has, er, come and gone, the cops still aren't there. Because they aren't coming. But at least if there's no TG law in place, women can shame him into leaving. And in my experience, women are very empathetic to TG people and know the difference.

[ClareWalks]

The 0.0042 translates to 0.42 percent, though, not 0.0042 percent.

[Scarlett45]

15 minutes ago, orangeiguana said:

I can't imagine anyone would have more trouble with a Sib bathroom visit than a woman bringing a young son inside, although I've had my fill of the little punks crawling under the stall... But thank you for bringing up this topic of which I was previously unaware.

I don't want to go too off topic but yes people do have problems. I've seen it with my own eyes.  Pre-pubescent young boys (although annoying when they climb under the stall), are expected to be in the women's restroom. Also many women have been mothers and understand the "Mom of young boys" issue more than the Sib issue. When your brother is 6ft 4inches tall, 250lbs, and looks "different" yes you may get hateful rude comments in the women's room. Even if he's just standing politely to the side, waiting for his sister- never mind if he needs assistance toileting. 

 

Back on topic- I honestly don't believe "shaming a sexual assaulant" (male or female) into leaving a place that shouldn't be has stopped someone from getting hurt.

I think transgender people do want to use the bathroom as quietly as they always have, but are now fighting against legislation that would prohibit that. I need to look at the statues but I don't know if in IL (my state) currently you are breaking any laws by using an opposite gender bathroom. If these laws pass, I, Scarlett45 would be breaking the law if I used the men's room at Target because the women's was full/being cleaned etc (assuming there was no family restroom). People have very little to say about keeping transmen or women out of "men's restrooms". 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Scarlett45

[Desert Rat]

1 hour ago, orangeiguana said:

OK then, my heart doesn't go out to Jazz. Jazz is a spoiled brat and is incredibly inconsiderate to those around Jazz, without regard to biological women, the feminism we worked so hard to attain, and women's concerns about privacy and safety. Apparently we don't matter at all.

Bingo!  The more I watch this show and read about this issue, the less sympathetic I become.  This transgender issue is beginning to look like another way to abuse and hold biological women down.  Women are being reduced to boobs and vaginas in dresses.  Our concerns about safety and privacy and are dismissed as hateful.  Yep, this is another way to silence women and reduce them to body parts.  

[Desert Rat]

39 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

The 0.0042 translates to 0.42 percent, though, not 0.0042 percent.

You are correct.

[SongbirdHollow]

27 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think transgender people do want to use the bathroom as quietly as they always have, but are now fighting against legislation that would prohibit that. 

I agree. The crime is peeping Tom/sexual assault and there are already laws against it. Having to relieve one's self is not a crime and I don't believe for a second that a penis owner is waiting for it to be legal to enter a women's restroom so he can commit that rape he's been waiting for.

What ought to be a crime is peeing on the seat and not wiping it up. Or not flushing. Or otherwise leaving a disgusting mess.

[ClareWalks]

What really chaps my ass is when women bring their school-age sons into women's bathrooms. I see it all the time at Disney parks, boys as old as 12/13 looking humiliated as Mommy drags them into the ladies room. These boys can easily see through the cracks. There are family restrooms for children with disabilities. Give me trans women over awkward tween boys in my bathroom any day ;)

[Impatient]

Dear Desert Rat,

 

Your 1.3 million out of 440 million calculation was correct but your placement of the decimal when using percent as you did is incorrect.  0.004 = 0.4%.  

This statement from your original comment:

"The most generous estimate of transgender individuals is 1,400,000.  That means that the TG community is only about 0.004% of the total population. "

0.004 converted to percent is 0.4% = 4 out of 1000.  But 0.004% is what you wrote and that means 4/100,000, which is indeed a huge difference.  

[Impatient]

When I was reading the Daily Mail today they described a transgender woman who transitioned at 14 with hormone blockers,, then synthetic estrogen.  This was in London and paid for by the National Health service. She did not have any surgery.  She decided after a year she was not satisfied living as a woman, there was still something wrong, so she transitioned back and lived as a gay man.  Now she is re-transitioning to female, and paying for it herself, since there has been a huge hew and cry.  

And the thing she is doing first?  She is having EE implants made.  Which I am sorry, makes the WHOLE story ridiculous.  

It just does project women back to a time of being nothing but a collection of body parts.

[Desert Rat]

15 minutes ago, Impatient said:

Dear Desert Rat,

 

Your 1.3 million out of 440 million calculation was correct but your placement of the decimal when using percent as you did is incorrect.  0.004 = 0.4%.  

This statement from your original comment:

"The most generous estimate of transgender individuals is 1,400,000.  That means that the TG community is only about 0.004% of the total population. "

0.004 converted to percent is 0.4% = 4 out of 1000.  But 0.004% is what you wrote and that means 4/100,000, which is indeed a huge difference.  

Oops. My bad. 

[ClareWalks]

@Impatient I would be very interested to see statistics of the number of people who transition who end up transitioning back, or at least being highly regretful about transitioning in the first place. I am guessing the number is quite low, since it seems that most people who transition are dang sure about what they want to do beforehand. It might be more of a challenge with the very young kids who transition, though.

[Desert Rat]

4 minutes ago, Impatient said:

When I was reading the Daily Mail today they described a transgender woman who transitioned at 14 with hormone blockers,, then synthetic estrogen.  This was in London and paid for by the National Health service. She did not have any surgery.  She decided after a year she was not satisfied living as a woman, there was still something wrong, so she transitioned back and lived as a gay man.  Now she is re-transitioning to female, and paying for it herself, since there has been a huge hew and cry.  

And the thing she is doing first?  She is having EE implants made.  Which I am sorry, makes the WHOLE story ridiculous.  

It just does project women back to a time of being nothing but a collection of body parts.

There is an ugly side to this whole issue. We are starting to see that with this show as the lipstick wears off.  

I do have some sympathy for Jazz. She didn't really choose this. As I understand her story, she started transitioning at a very young age, say 3 years old, before most have any concept of difference between boy and girl.  And why was this path chosen for Jazz?  Because according to the parents, Jazz preferred girl stuff, dolls, dresses, etc.  No wonder Jazz seems so angry and depressed.  Anyone man would be if deprived of their manhood simply because when they were a toddler they played with dolls instead of trucks. Apparently, Jazz said at a young age she wanted a vagina. Who talks like that?  Most girls, unless they are abused, don't know they have vaginas until they near puberty.  Which leads me to another weird thing about Jazz and the talk of wanting a "beautiful" vagina.  Does Jazz have any concept of female anatomy?  Does Jazz know that it is an integral organ?  Good grief. 

1 minute ago, ClareWalks said:

@Impatient I would be very interested to see statistics of the number of people who transition who end up transitioning back, or at least being highly regretful about transitioning in the first place. I am guessing the number is quite low, since it seems that most people who transition are dang sure about what they want to do beforehand. It might be more of a challenge with the very young kids who transition, though.

I agree about the young children.  Jazz did not have a choice. Her parents made it for her at around three years old or so.  As a child, one cannot possibly understand the consequences of such a decision and the impact it will have on one's life. I suspect that is why Jazz is so angry. 

[Cotypubby]

I think where the disconnect is coming in is, OK let's just assume that there will be a minuscule percentage (and as small as the actual TG % is, this will be even tinier) of men who will claim to be TG to use the women's room. OK let's say that is all true. That still would not give them the right to be a peeping Tom or to flash their penis at a woman or to assault anyone. None of that would suddenly become OK.

 

AFAIK, transpeople have always used the bathrooms they felt most comfortable in and it's never been an issue until the past few years. It's a pretty good bet that at one point in your life, the people in this thread have shared a bathroom with someone TG without knowing it. I mean, if you had never heard of Jazz before, no one would ever look at her and think she was anything but female. I'm curious what was it that made this suddenly become an issue a few years ago?

[Scarlett45]

@Desert Rat I think that in "casual language" most people who aren't medical professionals, use the term "vagina" to mean "vulva and vagina", the same way many use "nipple" to refer to "nipple and aerola". It drives me nuts (because it's not medically accurate) but I don't think Jazz is out side of the norm in that respect. 

She means she wants a labia majora, labia minora, clitoris and vaginal opening that's aesthetically appealing to her. 

Many women say "I need to get my vagina waxed", no honey there isn't hair in your vagina- you're getting your mons pubis, inner thighs waxed (depending on how much hair you have). 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Scarlett45

[ClareWalks]

5 minutes ago, Desert Rat said:

I agree about the young children.  Jazz did not have a choice. Her parents made it for her at around three years old or so.  As a child, one cannot possibly understand the consequences of such a decision and the impact it will have on one's life.

I have noticed especially in this episode that the parents constantly defer to Jazz about everything. They are so confident and certain that Jazz knows best for herself, and knows best about transgender issues. They let her basically get away with murder, how she talks to her grandfather. While I'm not doubting that Jazz has gender dysphoria, I think her parents are just letting her parent herself in general, which has made her spoiled and a bit of a brat. I think her grandparents are a bit more traditional as far as "we must guide our children," since Grandpa said he doesn't think Jazz needs to be dating right now (and I agree with him!).

[Cotypubby]

1 minute ago, ClareWalks said:

I have noticed especially in this episode that the parents constantly defer to Jazz about everything. They are so confident and certain that Jazz knows best for herself, and knows best about transgender issues. They let her basically get away with murder, how she talks to her grandfather. While I'm not doubting that Jazz has gender dysphoria, I think her parents are just letting her parent herself in general, which has made her spoiled and a bit of a brat. I think her grandparents are a bit more traditional as far as "we must guide our children," since Grandpa said he doesn't think Jazz needs to be dating right now (and I agree with him!).

I definitely agree with this. Getting back to the actual show, Jazz is incredibly spoiled and pretty naive. Her fight with her grandfather was pretty infuriating with her insisting on the woman at the talk being referred to as "he" when the woman presented herself as female and said she was only thinking of transitioning. Jazz was completely in the wrong there and her attitude really turned me off.

[SongbirdHollow]

On August 4, 2017 at 5:34 PM, desertrat said:

Now, if the TG bathroom laws prevail, woman and girls are no longer protected from these predators in the restroom.... if someone complains or calls the police, the man can simply say, "I feel like a woman in a man's body,  I am TG and have the right to use the woman's restroom."  These women are labeled haters if they object to a man exposing his penis in a restroom.  Who is to say whether this person is really TG or a man committing a sexual offense against woman and girls.

I was going to say that this is the literal definition of "transphobia" but then I realized that it's more like "transFAUXbia" because it's the fear of what somebody posing as a trans person will do.

Why punish trans people for this? That seems incredibly unfair.

As far as who is to say whether this person is really trans? The judge and jury when the victim presses charges.

[Desert Rat]

3 minutes ago, SongbirdHollow said:

I was going to say that this is the literal definition of "transphobia" but then I realized that it's more like "transFAUXbia" because it's the fear of what somebody posing as a trans person will do.

Why punish trans people for this? That seems incredibly unfair.

As far as who is to say whether this person is really trans? The judge and jury when the victim presses charges.

And this is why we should stick with the current law of biological men in the men's room, and biological women in the women's room.  No need for lawsuits over whether an individual is or is not transgender.  And what is the standard the court would use to determine who is legitimately transgender and who is just trying to sneak a peek?  Do you have to wear a dress?  Take hormones?  Undergone "bottom" surgery? Just feel like a woman for the day?  What is the standard?  Because if there is no standard, then effectively the new restroom policy proposed by the TV community would permit anyone man in a women's room based only on their claim to feel like a woman, whether sincere or not.  As a, biological woman, I am not comfortable with that.  It's degrading and demeaning to women.  

[Cotypubby]

24 minutes ago, Desert Rat said:

And this is why we should stick with the current law of biological men in the men's room, and biological women in the women's room.  No need for lawsuits over whether an individual is or is not transgender.  And what is the standard the court would use to determine who is legitimately transgender and who is just trying to sneak a peek?  Do you have to wear a dress?  Take hormones?  Undergone "bottom" surgery? Just feel like a woman for the day?  What is the standard?  Because if there is no standard, then effectively the new restroom policy proposed by the TV community would permit anyone man in a women's room based only on their claim to feel like a woman, whether sincere or not.  As a, biological woman, I am not comfortable with that.  It's degrading and demeaning to women.  

Except it's not that simple. That would mean you'd have this person in the women's room.

[Desert Rat]

8 minutes ago, Cotypubby said:

Except it's not that simple. That would mean you'd have this person in the women's room.

This is likely the reason the military is pushing to ban transgender people. The military is in the business of killing people and breaking things. It's not a place for social experiments or making people feel good.  

1 minute ago, Desert Rat said:

This is likely the reason the military is pushing to ban transgender people. The military is in the business of killing people and breaking things. It's not a place for social experiments or making people feel good.  

And again, we should not change restroom laws based on a relative handful of outliers.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Desert Rat
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