S04.E06: A Close Shave

[dubbel zout]

A reference to Hamilton: Peggy is the third, oft-forgotten Schuyler sister. It's sort of a catchphrase throughout the musical.

[slaterain]

Charles being relatively boring doesn't bother me as he does seem to keep his personal and business lives separate. Not perfectly (cough - LIza) but he generally does. He just seems relatively chill which I like. I liked the glimpse we saw of him in the hamptons.

The thing about the stupid text thing beyond why on earth would you send that sensitive info in a tweet - why on earth did he send it to Kelsey?!? LL Moore is not a Millennial imprint author - Kelsey has had nothing to do with him. It was just so thrown in there just so Kelsey's guy could see it and it was ridiculous. 

I haven't minded much of the fashion in the earlier seasons but it seems like they keep pushing some extremely non-flattering shapes on these beautiful women this season. I am not a big fashionista and keep it pretty basic but it is fun to see some cool outfits. However have thought they have gone too much and way over accessorized this year. 

[Ailianna]

I think too many of us forget that in TV world, the only dating options for long term relationships are with other regular cast members, so employee/employer status has no meaning for TV relationships.

[MissEwa]

1 hour ago, Ailianna said:

I think too many of us forget that in TV world, the only dating options for long term relationships are with other regular cast members, so employee/employer status has no meaning for TV relationships.

Sure. But that doesn't mean that the power differential isn't a little troubling, or that TV writers shouldn't at least try to do better and not normalise this kind of thing. I feel like Charles has been a designated love interest (maybe even end game) since the beginning, and given that, they could have made the office structure different - say he was a managing editor of another imprint - Diana still did his Marketing etc but he didn't have any actual authority over Kelsey. He would still be older but Liza wouldn't be his employee and he wouldn't have the ability to fire her. Instead, they chose to make him the publisher and head honcho because that power makes him more desirable to the viewers, but it makes his actions towards Liza more sketchy (IMO, obviously YMMV). 

Edited August 4, 2017 by MissEwa

[Stuffy]

Can someone who knows about publishing clear some things up for me?  

For starters is LL Moore the skeevy Game of Throne like author?  If so, wouldn't they still make a profit off his earlier work?  I'm basing that on the Carrie Underwood situation which I know is music and different. When the newish head of Sony talked about being known as the guy who lost Carrie Underwood, he mentioned he couldn't believe she left her catalog behind.  Meaning they could still profit off her if they wanted.   

I don't know about publishing, but if it's similar to Carrie's situation,  Empirical will still make a profit. They should have some time to find an author because they're still profiting off old work. Also if it's the GOT knockoff guy how does the romance book situation work? Wasn't that a separate contract? I don't remember if it was successful for them it's been awhile. I don't actually remember if they got the romance book contract. 

[gesundheit]

On 8/3/2017 at 10:05 PM, Maharincess said:

I'm wondering about this myself. Not all lesbians are butch looking.  I don't understand how somebody can be a convincing lesbian. 

They can be convincing by convincing me they're attracted to women! It just feels forced from her. Appearance-wise, it's fine, I could totally buy her as high-femme particularly with how curated her whole look is. (The fingernails don't really help me believe the whole "she's a bedroom lothario" shtick, but that's par for the course with TV/movie queer women.) It's not all Mazar's fault, as I said before the character is written like a gay man's idea of a fabulous femme lesbian. (Kind of the way Samantha on SaTC was a gay man's idea of a sex-positive woman.) 

 

Anyway, I like the actress and the character, I just wish I liked both more.

[gesundheit]

22 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

Does Charles ever laugh? I find him so boring...and frankly, not that clever. His business acumen seems to be questionable, he is divorced so maybe he sucks at relationships, he doesn't have any friends on the show, and his outburst in this episode was ridiculous considering how it ignored the fact that he is Liza's ultimate boss. Like the other guys on this show, he seems to have been presented to viewers as "Good looking" as if that is a personality. He might as well be a cardboard cutout.

He bores me to tears. I have no idea what his personality is, he doesn't seem to have one, and he's never even said anything that makes him sound particularly intelligent or insightful. He's just handsome, rich, and older, which to me is just lazy character development as a "perfect match" for the lead.

[dubbel zout]

15 hours ago, Stuffy said:

Can someone who knows about publishing clear some things up for me?  

For starters is LL Moore the skeevy Game of Throne like author?  If so, wouldn't they still make a profit off his earlier work?  I'm basing that on the Carrie Underwood situation which I know is music and different. When the newish head of Sony talked about being known as the guy who lost Carrie Underwood, he mentioned he couldn't believe she left her catalog behind.  Meaning they could still profit off her if they wanted.   

I don't know about publishing, but if it's similar to Carrie's situation,  Empirical will still make a profit. They should have some time to find an author because they're still profiting off old work. Also if it's the GOT knockoff guy how does the romance book situation work? Wasn't that a separate contract? I don't remember if it was successful for them it's been awhile. I don't actually remember if they got the romance book contract. 

LL Moore is the GOT-like author. As long as Empirical has the rights to his books, it should make money from them, but you always want something current to keep the interest alive. Depending on the deals, it's possible the rights to the old books could move to the new publisher (or to the author himself, and he can assign them as he chooses). Which is why publishers want to keep their bestselling authors.

The GOT guy mentioned romance, but AFAIR, nothing has happened with that. If anything did, yes, it would probably be a separate contract, as it's a different series. I don't think finding someone to continue the dead romance writer's work has been successful yet. We've speculated that

Liza will end up writing them.

[HunterHunted]

On 8/4/2017 at 8:08 PM, Stuffy said:

Can someone who knows about publishing clear some things up for me?  

For starters is LL Moore the skeevy Game of Throne like author?  If so, wouldn't they still make a profit off his earlier work?  I'm basing that on the Carrie Underwood situation which I know is music and different. When the newish head of Sony talked about being known as the guy who lost Carrie Underwood, he mentioned he couldn't believe she left her catalog behind.  Meaning they could still profit off her if they wanted.   

I don't know about publishing, but if it's similar to Carrie's situation,  Empirical will still make a profit. They should have some time to find an author because they're still profiting off old work. Also if it's the GOT knockoff guy how does the romance book situation work? Wasn't that a separate contract? I don't remember if it was successful for them it's been awhile. I don't actually remember if they got the romance book contract. 

9 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

LL Moore is the GOT-like author. As long as Empirical has the rights to his books, it should make money from them, but you always want something current to keep the interest alive. Depending on the deals, it's possible the rights to the old books could move to the new publisher (or to the author himself, and he can assign them as he chooses). Which is why publishers want to keep their bestselling authors.

The GOT guy mentioned romance, but AFAIR, nothing has happened with that. If anything did, yes, it would probably be a separate contract, as it's a different series. I don't think finding someone to continue the dead romance writer's work has been successful yet. We've speculated that

  Hide contents

Liza will end up writing them.

 

I'm trying to figure out what is going on with Empirical, Edward L.L. Moore, and his Crown of Kings series. I would have thought that Empirical would have an exclusive contract for all Crown of Kings books. There is no way that Empirical is negotiating for each book. That would be colossally stupid. However in season 3, we learn that L.L. Moore is staying with Empirical because they signed him for his 50 Shades book written under a pseudonym. He's finished with Crown of Kings and Charles is begging Moore to write another book in the Crown universe. I just can't imagine that Empirical would have written the contract that badly that Moore could take the universe to another publisher. Is Crown done or not? Is this contract negotiation for any future work from L.L. Moore including his erotica or other non-Crown books?

[dubbel zout]

Typically a publisher contracts for two books at a time. If it's a series, the contract might cover more than two at a time, but the problem is that no one knows how long a series will last, either from the author's creative output or public demand. If the contract is specific to the series, then it would have to be renegotiated/amended if the series ended before the contract did. And if the writer wanted a break from writing the series, as LL Moore did with the 50 Shades thing, you'd have to renegotiate that.

It's not that the contracts are written badly, it's that neither side wants to get stuck in something that's not working, e.g., the series tanks after the third book, but everyone is locked in for five. Of course you can put in all sorts of riders that account for any number of possibilities, but it's a lot easier to be more straightforward. Also, depending on the terms of the contract, a new publisher could simply buy an author out of his/her current one. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I also wonder if they are weirdly making fun of millennials by dressing Kelsey and Liza the way they do?? Either that or they are so fashion forward it will take another lifetime for me to understand it or like it!!

I think that's really all the costumer.  She did something similar with Sex and the City and Ugly Betty.  The characters all started dressing like crazy people with unlimited budgets and horrible taste.

I do feel like Charles and Liza are end game, but it's hard to root for them.  He has minimal personality, and he thinks she's his 27 year old employee. 

[Atlanta]

I would be more willing to buy that her and Josh get back and have a baby and marry than her and Charles. He's too boring for her and I'm not a big Liza fan at this point.

[MissEwa]

1 hour ago, Atlanta said:

I would be more willing to buy that her and Josh get back and have a baby and marry than her and Charles. He's too boring for her and I'm not a big Liza fan at this point.

Yep. I've always been Team Josh to some extent but I feel like Liza ending up with Charles is basically her going backwards, to where she was before her marriage broke up (but with more money). I like the idea that Liza's mid(ish)-life crisis has given her a new perspective on herself - at first she really was just playing a role, but I think she's grown to genuinely like big parts of 27-year-old-Liza's life (including the people in it). Ending up with Charles turns all of that into a phase. 

I see the logistical problems with Josh (especially as he's all keen to settle down and have kids), but I prefer Liza how she is with him. She seems more confident and braver in herself, and like an equal partner in the relationship. With Charles she seems weaker. I know it's probably too late in the run of the show but I'd kinda love if they brought in a guy who was closer to her age, maybe mid-late 30s, maybe already with kids, but with more of that Millenial mindset. 
 

[dubbel zout]

12 hours ago, MissEwa said:

I know it's probably too late in the run of the show but I'd kinda love if they brought in a guy who was closer to her age, maybe mid-late 30s, maybe already with kids, but with more of that Millenial mindset. 

I don't think Charles is supposed to be that much older than Liza, is he? He has some big responsibilities, which I think is one reason he seems on the stuffy side. You can't afford to be flippant when you've got 75 people counting on you for their livelihood.

I do think Liza needs to date at least one more person before she and Charles do, especially if they're endgame, as they seem to be.

[buffyshrugged]

If a romance with Charles is what it takes for Liza to finally reveal her age at work, I'm all for it.  In fact, if Empirical throws their support behind her, there's a great book in there that's actually perfect for the Millennial imprint. "My Life as a 26-year-old" or somesuch, in which Liza sympathizes with the plight of today's 20-somethings while dropping some feminist life knowledge. Based on all of the interest in her anonymous interview with the psychologist author, buyers of both age groups would eat that up. The show makes a huge deal about her career with Millennial being over if her age was known, but it's not like anyone bats an eye at 35-year-old editors selecting books for 15-year-olds, and she could always move to another part of the company now that her editor bona fides have been established. The contortions the show has to go through to keep the age storyline going (and Josh in the picture) are getting too pretzel-y for me. 

[dubbel zout]

I think we're getting some sort of book from Liza, whether it's ghostwriting romances or "My Life as a 26-Year-Old."

58 minutes ago, buffyshrugged said:

now that her editor bona fides have been established

Yeah, I think it's time to reveal her age to everyone. There should be more personal than professional fallout, though if the latter is spun properly (see tell-all book), it could be minimal.

[MissEwa]

5 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I don't think Charles is supposed to be that much older than Liza, is he? He has some big responsibilities, which I think is one reason he seems on the stuffy side. You can't afford to be flippant when you've got 75 people counting on you for their livelihood.

He's not supposed to be - someone mentioned 43, in one thread? - but he seems it. And I don't necessarily mean that he should be partying every night, sleeping with models and letting Empirical burn, but he reminds me a lot of an MD I worked for when I was in publishing, who would come out of his office every now and then to ask me questions like 'so, Tweeter? What is that? Do we have it?' Only he was in his mid-50s. 

I think what the show forgets is that there has been a big generational shift over the past 20-odd years. 40-something now means something different to what it used to - 40-somethings are Gen-X and, the ones I know, at least, act it - even the ones who own companies. Charles acts how I thought 40-somethings acted when I was 25, but I'm pushing 40 now and he still seems twenty years older than me. 

(Of course, all this is IME, and there might be cultural differences at play too, given I'm not in the US.)

[txhorns79]

Quote

I think what the show forgets is that there has been a big generational shift over the past 20-odd years. 40-something now means something different to what it used to - 40-somethings are Gen-X and, the ones I know, at least, act it - even the ones who own companies. Charles acts how I thought 40-somethings acted when I was 25, but I'm pushing 40 now and he still seems twenty years older than me. 

I think there are all sorts of Gen-X'ers.  My impression of Charles is of someone who knows his place, and is content to be in that place.  He thinks of others, acts like an authority figure because he is, and recognizes that his job requires him to act in a certain way.  I mean, I'm not even Charles' age, but I related to his telling Kelsey that her Twitter war was a bad idea, and his getting angry at her for being too cozy with a competitor.  I mean, I recognize that Kelsey had blowback coming the moment she was dismissive of Charles' warnings, but he acted like an adult who was thinking ahead, while she didn't. 

Also, I know it's a pipe dream, but I wish Diana got more to do.  I love the scenes where she's clearly trying to be a mentor to Liza.  I feel like there will be some kind of ceremony where Diana passes the torch by presenting Liza with a collection of statement necklaces.  

[dubbel zout]

23 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Also, I know it's a pipe dream, but I wish Diana got more to do.  I love the scenes where she's clearly trying to be a mentor to Liza.  I feel like there will be some kind of ceremony where Diana passes the torch by presenting Liza with a collection of statement necklaces.  

So much this. Miriam Shor is criminally underused.

[msani19]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Miriam Shor is criminally underused.

I agree with this very much but given my history with watching his particular show-runners past shows, I have no faith that they would be able to provide us with an awesome, engaging and nuanced story line for Diana. So if having small doses of awesome is what it takes to keep her from being completely destroyed as a character, then I'll take the small doses!

[Eri]

On 8/3/2017 at 2:24 PM, dubbel zout said:

Kelsey doesn't need to be banned from dating anyone in the industry, she needs an in-depth course on confidentiality and social-media use. She's also getting a little cocky with the success Millennial has had; witness how taken aback Charles was when she rather haughtily told him he was borrowing money from Millennial for to keep Empirical afloat. Uh, it's all one company, Kelsey, and you were lucky you weren't fired on the spot for insubordination.

Yeah, I'm honestly shocked that Charles didn't reprimand her then and there, especially when she did that in front of Liza. She becomes such a snot whenever she's involved with a guy and they either end up a dopplebanger or someone related to her job. It's even more annoying that she hasn't seemed to learn that you don't mix business with pleasure after the married author, etc. The girl needs to get a grip!

[MissEwa]

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I mean, I'm not even Charles' age, but I related to his telling Kelsey that her Twitter war was a bad idea, and his getting angry at her for being too cozy with a competitor.  I mean, I recognize that Kelsey had blowback coming the moment she was dismissive of Charles' warnings, but he acted like an adult who was thinking ahead, while she didn't.  

100% agree with this. His stuffiness and older-feelingness isn't to do with how professional he is to me, it's about his persona and interests outside of work - what we've seen of them, anyway.  

ETA. I think that understanding of the boundaries with work stuff can come with age, but it's not necessarily generational - most of the professional 20-somethings I know are SUPER aware of the potential impact of social media, and wouldn't do what Kelsey did. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by MissEwa

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Deleted/extended scenes:

 

 

Clips:

 

[aradia22]

Highly unprofessional behavior from Charles and poor Kelsey but I did like seeing Charles admit to being jealous. It was a moment of life in this otherwise pretty dull season.