S01.E03: All the World's a Stage

[Guest]

Quote

Prince Escalus suggests a public wedding in hopes of convincing the citizens of Verona that Benvolio and Rosaline are madly in love; Livia bonds with Count Paris; and a conspiracy to keep the Montagues and Capulets feuding threatens Escalus' plans for peace.

[Kuther2000]

So we can all agree Lord Capulet is going crazy from guilt.

[Enero]

Isabella is an interesting character. She's playing innocent with Rosalind pretending to follow Escalus' lead when in reality she's pushing the Montague/Capulet marriage more than her brother. In fact, I would say she's driving it. If it weren't for her Escalus would be trying to marry Rosalind himself.

I wonder why Isabella has no interest in getting married off? She's definitely all about woman power (and there's nothing wrong with that). Her comment about men and kings in this episode though  makes me wonder if she prefers women.

I felt for Benevolio in this one. He has lost everyone he loves, but the chemistry between him and Rosalind is popping. I'm looking forward to seeing where their investigation into whose trying to destroy Verona leads - if there will be a romance - he still seems hung up on the prostitute and she on the Prince and who is behind the chaos, which has to be someone we've seen.

Lord Capulet and Montague are hilarious together. I can watch them snip at each other all day. 

I think the show is starting to hit its stride. Each episode is a little more coherent. It continues to be a fun summer escape. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Enero

[SimoneS]

I agree that Capulet is losing his mind. I don't understand why he doesn't just tell the Escalus in private that he is broke. Escalus would help him out to ensure that marriage takes place. 

I really liked Benevolio and Rosaline teaming up to chase the assassin. It was fun and showed what a good team they can be if they let their guard down with each other. Rosaline was very courageous and determined I like that. I don't buy Benevolio's love for that woman or wanting to run away with her. What would a wealthy spoilt young man do for a living without his family's support, especially at that time? It isn't like he could go work in a restaurant. He hasn't done a days' hard labor in his life as far as I can tell. Now if he was in love with a woman from his own social background where a potential marriage was possible, but thwarted like Rosalind and Escalus, I would fine his virulent opposition to the marriage more believable. 

Last week, someone speculated that it was the Doge of Venice is behind these attacks. It is looking more and more likely with the timing of those ambassadors visiting. Whoever is doing this is attempting to destabilize Verona.

I love that Isabella is a feminist. She might be a lesbian who knows. I wonder if they are giving her a love interest.

Edited June 20, 2017 by SimoneS

[Driad]

I think Isabella, like Elizabeth I of England, figures that if she had a husband, he would be her boss because of the way their society is set up.  So she may have decided she is better off single.

Did they establish that a prospective bridegroom's family pays a bride price to the prospective bride's family, instead of her family paying a dowry to his?

Rosaline and Benvolio suddenly reminded me of some of the odd couples we have seen on detective shows.  They might get along better that way.

[Irlandesa]

I've been giving Escalus the benefit of the doubt.  In Ep 1, I isaw him as a somewhat tragic figure who had to give up his love for his country.  In Ep. 2, I even tolerated his flip flopping because a) the heart wants what the heart wants and b) the heart can't have what it wants so while the blackmail was cruel to Rosaline and probably a couple ender for them, I could still respect the position he was in.

But tonight when he told Rosaline to stop torturing him when she had to play all in love with Benvolio---something he set up?  Ah hell no.  I don't have time for you whiny Escalus.  May your sister reign.

Sheesh I love every corny and soapy aspect about this show.  Ghost Juliet telling her father to beware?  Awesome.  Benvolio and Rosaline getting all excited about working together to find the common Capulet & Montague enemy because it means they won't get married yet seem quite flirty while planning it?  Double awesome.

Less awesome is this prostitute love of Benvolio's.  I feel like I'm missing her point, although she did seem quite practical.

And while I like Paris and Livia, I'm not sure I trust his intentions with her quite yet.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Irlandesa

[Enero]

3 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I've been giving Escalus the benefit of the doubt.  In Ep 1, I isaw him as a somewhat tragic figure who had to give up his love for his country.  In Ep. 2, I even tolerated his flip flopping because a) the heart wants what the heart wants and b) the heart can't have what it wants so while the blackmail was cruel to Rosaline and probably a couple ender for them, I could still respect the position he was in.

And while I like Paris and Livia, I'm not sure I trust his intentions with her quite yet.

I completely agree with everything you've said about Escalus. If he's going to give up his love for Rosalind for the greater good then give it up and be a man about it. Stop whining and being a whimp. It does nothing to make him endearing. 

Also, I'm with you about Paris. Maybe its just writing for plot which is very possible on this show, :) but I can't understand why he's okay with being confined to the basement of the Capulet house? He is a Lord. Now that he is well enough to talk, heck even walk the grounds of the castle, why is he not demanding for better treatment? At least to be moved to one of the upper floors or make contact with his family who have strangely not care at all about him being missing for how long?

I do wonder how the Capulet's got into so much debt. Was it the investment in the cathedral? Or have they been skating by for years? That might would explain why when Livia and Rosalind's dad died they were reduced to servants with no money rather than continuing on as Ladies with a dowry. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Enero

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Enero said:

I completely agree with everything you've said about Escalus. If he's going to give up his love for Rosalind for the greater good then give it up and be a man about it. Stop whining and being a whimp. It does nothing to make him endearing. 

Yes, this.  Give her up or don't, but don't be making moon eyes at her in public during her betrothal ceremony while telling everyone that they need to be convincing.

The Paris thing is weird. I know it's to keep him as a potential suitor for Livia, but it's just reached the ridiculous point.  "Oh, you just want to keep me in the basement.  Sure, why not?"  

Benvolio and Rosalind seem like they could make quite a pair if they decide to work together.

[AzureOwl]

11 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Last week, someone speculated that it was the Doge of Venice is behind these attacks. It is looking more and more likely with the timing of those ambassadors visiting. Whoever is doing this is attempting to destabilize Verona.

If that’s the case, then the Doge is either extremely reckless or extremely ruthless.

Setting off a cart-full of gunpowder in the middle of a public event where his own brother will be in attendance?

I think we can rule out him offing the ambassador on purpose as a false flag, as there is no way they could’ve intentionally directed that shard of wood to embed itself on his chest, and everyone else in the high place of honor made it more or less unscathed.

That means one of two things. The Doge doesn’t care if his brother gets hurt during the explosion which would make him callously ruthless. Or the Doge didn’t think it through or consider the possibility that his own brother would be put in danger because of the stunt, which would make him dangerously reckless.

And on the gripping hand, there's the chance that it is the Doge's agent provocateur who doesn't mind putting the Doge's own brother in danger in order to achieve his ends. That would be a dangerous game as the Doge would know who was really responsible for his brother's death.

Edited June 20, 2017 by AzureOwl
Tense of a verb.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, doram said:

Which is why it's more likely that Paris is in the basement for reasons that have nothing to do with Livia. She's just an unexpected perk and/or potential cog in the wheel to a greater scheme.

I meant that the writers are keeping him down there as a plot contrivance to be with Livia.  

[slade3]

I enjoyed this episode. It set up a dynamic between Benvolio and Rosaline that makes me curious about their future.

I agree that his "love" for the prostitute isn't 100% believable. It feels to me as if the writers couldn't think of another reason he would be so against marrying Rosaline. I think hate between the Montagues and Capulets, as well as the constant bullying from townspeople about their marriage, seems to be enough to me, but I guess I can see how it could become less believable after they've spent more time together.

I also think Isabella is gay.

Spoiler

The promo pictures from episode 5 put the thought in my head, 

and then I watched this episode and feel almost sure of it. Her line about not needing men and their sons was a big clue, I think.

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, slade3 said:

I think hate between the Montagues and Capulets, as well as the constant bullying from townspeople about their marriage, seems to be enough to me,

That and when they specified it was a prostitute he was hooking up with, I just figured they were going the, "he's a manwhore who doesn't want to get married because he wants to continue hooking up with prostitutes and anyone else he cares to." Especially since I felt like the show was setting up a triangle between him, Escalus and Rosaline. So with this sudden feelings for the prostitute, what, it's a relationship square?

[slade3]

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

That and when they specified it was a prostitute he was hooking up with, I just figured they were going the, "he's a manwhore who doesn't want to get married because he wants to continue hooking up with prostitutes and anyone else he cares to." Especially since I felt like the show was setting up a triangle between him, Escalus and Rosaline. So with this sudden feelings for the prostitute, what, it's a relationship square?

The more I think about it, I think I'm okay with this twist, even though I don't fully buy Benvolio has such strong feelings for her.

I don't really like love triangles because I start to lose respect for everyone involved the longer it goes on (I'm looking at you Scandal). I feel the person in the middle is being unfair by stringing two people along, and I feel the people waiting for the choice to be made are stupid for not moving on. So maybe Benvolio's "love interest" will make things a bit more even. 

I assume Benvolio and Rosaline will fall in love at some point, so I hope the fact that they have feelings for other people will make the who-falls-in-love-first aspect of the story more interesting. (I will be shocked if Benvolio and Rosaline don't fall in love by the end of the season.)

[Enero]

5 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

That and when they specified it was a prostitute he was hooking up with, I just figured they were going the, "he's a manwhore who doesn't want to get married because he wants to continue hooking up with prostitutes and anyone else he cares to." Especially since I felt like the show was setting up a triangle between him, Escalus and Rosaline. So with this sudden feelings for the prostitute, what, it's a relationship square?

I kind of think the prostitute is nothing more than a representation of Benvolio's desire to be free. In her arms he can be whom ever he wants without expectation. Hence his desire to run off with her and him saying that he'd happily embrace a life as a blacksmith and her as a madam. The fact that he doesn't want to run off by himself, where he'd be free to screw whomever he pleases, is interesting within itself. Maybe he does love the prostitute or just don't want to be alone. 

 

He and Rosalind are very similar in that they want to be free to live the lives they choose.  How fitting would it be if they figured out how to do this together.

[wanderingstar]

I enjoy the dynamic between Rosaline and Benvolio. 

Also Rosaline's relationship with her sister Livia.

Lord Montague cozying up to Isabella was interesting. She clearly doesn't like playing second fiddle to Escalus. 

Lords Capulet and Montague are ridiculous - like squabbling children. I like how the actors play it.
 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Gillian Rosh

[jhlipton]

No love for mocking Sonnet 18?  At least it wasn't 130 (although, truth be told, Rosalind's breasts are, if not  quite dun, then certainly brown!). 

23 hours ago, Kuther2000 said:

So we can all agree Lord Capulet is going crazy from guilt.

So very Shakespeare -- going crazy from guilt because of ghosts: Brutus, Macbeth, Richard III (and others, I'm sure)

23 hours ago, SimoneS said:

He hasn't done a days' hard labor in his life as far as I can tell.

Benvolio saying he could be a blacksmith -- LOL.  Has he seen what most blacksmiths look like?  Take a fair amount of hammering to get iron to take shape!

19 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

And while I like Paris and Livia, I'm not sure I trust his intentions with her quite yet.

I think he might have had his way with her -- as a servant, she would have no recourse -- until she said she was a lady.  And soon, we hope, she'll be a Lady.

Amping up our geometric figures (let me know when we build a tesseract..), perhaps Isabella is attracted to Rosalind or Olivia.

[legaleagle53]

27 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Benvolio saying he could be a blacksmith -- LOL.  Has he seen what most blacksmiths look like?  Take a fair amount of hammering to get iron to take shape!

Very true.  There's a reason that Henry Wadsworth Longfellow described the village blacksmith as 

Quote

The smith, a mighty man is he,
With large and sinewy hands;
And the muscles of his brawny arms
Are strong as iron bands. 

His hair is crisp, and black, and long,
His face is like the tan;
His brow is wet with honest sweat,
He earns whate'er he can,
And looks the whole world in the face,
For he owes not any man.

The Village Blacksmith, lines 3-12.

[Black Knight]

On 6/19/2017 at 8:34 PM, Driad said:

I think Isabella, like Elizabeth I of England, figures that if she had a husband, he would be her boss because of the way their society is set up.  So she may have decided she is better off single.

Did they establish that a prospective bridegroom's family pays a bride price to the prospective bride's family, instead of her family paying a dowry to his?

Re: Isabella - that's probably played into her thinking to date. But this episode shows her realizing that with her brother now the Prince, she's basically in that position anyway. Escalus made it clear twice that he doesn't care what she wants (he's followed her advice at times, but that's different - it's because he knows she's right about what's best for Verona - he's not doing it because it's what she wants) and will order her around like any other subject of his. I wonder if when her father was ruling, he granted her more agency. Or maybe he didn't and she thought things would be different once her brother took the throne. Either way, she's certainly not happy with how her situation is shaping up. And as self-serving as Lord Montague's words to her were, he's probably right - Escalus doesn't seem as natural of a ruler as she does. As far as her sexuality goes, I've thought some of her stuff with Rosaline pings, but as Rosaline is destined doubtless for Benvolio (I like those two together, by the way), that's dead in the water. And there aren't any other available options for her on the canvas - Livia has Paris, and who else is even around? Lady Capulet? The prostitute? Yeah, no. So, she may or may not be gay, but I don't expect any sort of romantic relationship for her if she is. I think her story will be about whether to support or overthrow her brother. Since she's always going on about what's best for Verona, she probably could rationalize a power grab to herself given Escalus's flaws. Lord Montague clearly plans to whisper encouragement for that in her ear, and likely plans to offer himself as a husband who will not restrict her.

As for your bride price question, that is canon from the play - at the end, Capulet asks Montague for a handshake as his daughter's bride price. "O brother Montague, give me thy hand. This is my daughter’s jointure, for no more can I demand." And in the show, Capulet mentioned in the previous episode that he would have a bride price coming from Montague for Rosaline.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Black Knight

[AzureOwl]

On 2017-6-19 at 10:34 PM, Driad said:

Did they establish that a prospective bridegroom's family pays a bride price to the prospective bride's family, instead of her family paying a dowry to his?

22 hours ago, doram said:

Yeah, that's what it would seem. 

Although it makes Capulet's decision not to let his nieces be Ladies that can be married off to rich men who will pay fortunes for them, seem even more ridiculous.

Or that Rosaline has to blackmail him to make Livia one. 

The writers seem to have mixed up the concepts of dowry and bride price, and are using the term bride price for both.

10 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Lords capulet and Montague are ridiculous - like squabbling children. I like how the actors play it.

Which is the right way to approach this conflict, as we have seen that there is nothing but resentment and petty squabbles at the heart of it. There is no great wrong done to start it, no great crime laying at its heart. 

It's just a mutual petty dislike that grew out of all proportion over generations.

[jhlipton]

2 hours ago, AzureOwl said:

It's just a mutual petty dislike that grew out of all proportion over generations.

Isn't that the way with most feuds?

The Hatfileds and MCoys were on opposite sides during the Civil War, I think, but the instigating factor in the feud occurred in 1878, after a dispute about the ownership of a hog: Floyd Hatfield, a cousin of Devil Anse's, had the hog, but Randolph McCoy claimed it was his,

[Happytobehere]

On 6/20/2017 at 1:54 PM, slade3 said:

I also think Isabella is gay.

  Hide contents

The promo pictures from episode 5 put the thought in my head, 

I agree with this assessment.  As I was watching the episode and listening to what she was saying, I too thought that Isabella is gay and didn't feel that she could openly declare herself as such.

I am actually liking the show more than I thought I would, so I know what that means in terms of its future.  Too bad ABC is giving it next to no promotion.

[thuganomics85]

Well, that was an explosive betrothal!  Sorry, so sorry.  Certainly hope Escalus has a "Sorry Your Ambassador Got Killed in My City" package ready.

Benvolio and Rosaline were definitely showing some chemistry here, and I certainly think it will end with the liking each other more then they would currently want to admit.  Of course, they still have to contend with whatever is going on with Rosaline and Escalus, and now Benvolio actually seems to have legit feelings for this prostitute, Stella (I think that's her name?)  I am looking forward to them teaming up to find out who this third party is that is trying to keep the Montague/Capulet feud going.

So, Lord Capulet is losing his mind and seeing visions of a Ghost Juliet.  A common trope, but Anthony Head is certainly doing a great job at the whole guilt-ridden, tortured soul thing.  Although, while I can understand why Lady Capulet is upset that he never even visit Juliet's crypt, I'm with him on that doll being just a wee bit creepy.

Lord Montague is becoming one of my favorites.  Grant Bowler is just having a ball pushing everyone's buttons and smirking his way behind the scenes.  And I love how he and Lord Capulet in up squabbling like children.

Isabella continues to be the smartest person on this show.

I want Livia to find happiness, but I'm not sure I trust Paris.

Still finding this show to be soapy fun for the summer.

[legaleagle53]

I loved the subtle jabs at the original source material (William Shakespeare).  The idea of one of his most famous love sonnets (written to another man, incidentally, or so the historians claim) being mocked as an example of terrible poetry amused me to no end.

I also loved seeing Rosaline twist the knife a few times where Escalus was concerned.  It serves him right for constantly leading her on.  I also liked the mutual blackmail between her and Lord Capulet ("Make my sister a Lady again, or I won't go through with the marriage to Montague."  "Go through with the marriage to Montague and make a big, convincing public show of how happy you are, or your sister will remain a servant forever.")

This show really is getting better, and I'm definitely in for the duration now.

[LydiaMoon1]

On 6/20/2017 at 9:19 PM, Enero said:

I kind of think the prostitute is nothing more than a representation of Benvolio's desire to be free. In her arms he can be whom ever he wants without expectation. Hence his desire to run off with her and him saying that he'd happily embrace a life as a blacksmith and her as a madam. The fact that he doesn't want to run off by himself, where he'd be free to screw whomever he pleases, is interesting within itself. Maybe he does love the prostitute or just don't want to be alone. 

I think it's the latter.  He doesn't want to be alone. In fact, this episode did a great job of emphasizing how profoundly lonely BV is.  I felt so sad for him when he told Stella that all he has left is his uncle who hates him, and having to fake a betrothal to a woman who despises him can't be helping his self-esteem .  The poor guy just wants to spend time with someone who actually likes him. 

Still, my empathy for him didn't stop me from rolling my eyes when he was talking about having money and running away with Stella to become a blacksmith.  Really, Boo?  Your uncle already said that you don't have anything that isn't his.  And did no one explain to you that smithing is hard work, full of long hours and hot, sweaty labor?  Pray tell, what in your experience of whoring and drinking and spending your uncle's money prepares you to make a living as a blacksmith? Come on now.

On 6/21/2017 at 7:16 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Lord Montague is becoming one of my favorites.  Grant Bowler is just having a ball pushing everyone's buttons and smirking his way behind the scenes.  And I love how he and Lord Capulet in up squabbling like children.

Isabella continues to be the smartest person on this show.

I want Livia to find happiness, but I'm not sure I trust Paris.

Still finding this show to be soapy fun for the summer.

Totally agree about Isabella, and about Lord Montague as well.  He is such a bitch.  Also, I'm glad I'm not the only one that doesn't trust Paris.  His whole situation is a little too sketchy for me, and Livia is alarmingly wide-eyed and innocent about the whole thing. I'm worried for her.

When Rosaline was running after the guy that caused the explosion, I couldn't help but be impressed.  While she wasn't the most graceful runner I've ever seen, she was able to run fast in that heavy dress.  That gown had to have weighed a ton!

Edited June 23, 2017 by LydiaMoon1

[Driad]

Quote

[Rosaline] was able to run fast in that heavy dress.  That gown had to have weighed a ton!

Maybe they have two or more dresses, one that has the proper details for close-ups, a similar but lighter weight one for running, etc.?

[jhlipton]

On 6/20/2017 at 9:19 PM, Enero said:

Maybe he does love the prostitute or just don't want to be alone.

It's not uncommon for people to fall in "love" with sex workers they see often.  It's far less common for sex workers to fall in love with their clients.

It's not unreasonable to think that Benvolio is in love with his image of Stella, with the character she plays for him.  It's highly unlikely that he ever sees the "real" Stella, though.

[ursula]

16 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

I loved the subtle jabs at the original source material (William Shakespeare).  The idea of one of his most famous love sonnets (written to another man, incidentally, or so the historians claim) being mocked as an example of terrible poetry amused me to no end.

I also loved seeing Rosaline twist the knife a few times where Escalus was concerned.  It serves him right for constantly leading her on.  I also liked the mutual blackmail between her and Lord Capulet ("Make my sister a Lady again, or I won't go through with the marriage to Montague."  "Go through with the marriage to Montague and make a big, convincing public show of how happy you are, or your sister will remain a servant forever.")

This show really is getting better, and I'm definitely in for the duration now.

I also loved the Shakespeare jabs and shout-outs. I imagine that we'll soon see Capulet rubbing off the 'damned spot!' from his hands soon. 

Gosh, Escalus was insufferable this episode. What does he want? He blackmailed Rosaline into this marriage and now he's acting hurt that she's trying to be happy with it? Screw him. 

Ratings were abysmal though. :/

[peachmangosteen]

58 minutes ago, ursula said:

Ratings were abysmal though. :/

 

Dammit. I mean I knew before even watching the first ep that this wouldn't do well/would get canceled, but I was still holding onto some hope.

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Ratings were abysmal though. :/

BOOOOO!!!!

[legaleagle53]

5 hours ago, ursula said:

I also loved the Shakespeare jabs and shout-outs. I imagine that we'll soon see Capulet rubbing off the 'damned spot!' from his hands soon. 

Gosh, Escalus was insufferable this episode. What does he want? He blackmailed Rosaline into this marriage and now he's acting hurt that she's trying to be happy with it? Screw him. 

Ratings were abysmal though. :/

He didn't blackmail her so much as he strong-armed her into it even after leading her on and after she had made it clear that she wanted no part of the marriage to Benvolio.  And her obvious public show of happiness was a deliberate twist of the knife, and she and Escalus both knew it (did you notice that she kept looking over at him every time she reaffirmed how happy she was and how much she was looking forward to marrying Benvolio? She barely contained her glee at the smoke that was coming out of Escalus' ears!).

[ursula]

9 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

He didn't blackmail her so much as he strong-armed her into it even after leading her on and after she had made it clear that she wanted no part of the marriage to Benvolio.  And her obvious public show of happiness was a deliberate twist of the knife, and she and Escalus both knew it (did you notice that she kept looking over at him every time she reaffirmed how happy she was and how much she was looking forward to marrying Benvolio? She barely contained her glee at the smoke that was coming out of Escalus' ears!).

Well, it came down to the same thing. He gave her a choice between doing what he wanted or being ruined, and her sister, too, which was despicable. I liked that she twisted the knife. She's confident in his feelings for her - she thinks that if she makes him jealous enough he might call the whole thing off. I wonder if she'll be proved right or wrong. 

Although considering the ratings, we might never find out.