Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[SimoneS]

It is telling that Jon gets a pass for executing Olly, a child, while Dany is attacked for executing Dickon Tarly, a grown man, who betrayed and made war on his liege lord and went on to reject a chance at living and protecting his mother and sister by some fans. I don't think that it is all even or even most of the fans who feel this way, but the vocal ones will have a meltdown if Dany burns alive Tyrion for his betrayal.

I saw speculation on FreeFolk (or somewhere) else that maybe why Emilia (and I think possibly Natalie) didn't film in Seville is because she filmed Tyrion's execution on Drogon in front of the green screen. I really hope all of this isn't true. In Martin's original outline Tyrion survives to the end. It seems like such a major change for his character.

 

1 hour ago, nikma said:

Tumblr is leaking...

I have no clue what this means.

28 minutes ago, anamika said:

Jaime has caused untold misery for the Starks and it was beautiful to see Dany unleash her dragon on him. The Lannisters have been getting one victory after the other, they killed Starks, imprisoned Edmure, murdered the Tyrells, defeated Stannis, murdered the Martells. It's only Dany that has been able to crush them in battle and I love her for it.

It was great seeing the Lannisters and their allies finally get what they deserved. It such a strong moment for Dany leading her army to war on her dragon. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by SimoneS

[bubble sparkly]

12 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

It is telling that Jon gets a pass for executing Olly, a child, while Dany is attacked for executing Dickon Tarly, a grown man, who betrayed and made war on his liege lord and went on to reject a chance at living and protecting his mother and sister by some fans. I don't think that it is all even or even most of the fans who feel this way, but the vocal ones will have a meltdown if Dany burns alive Tyrion for his betrayal.

How dare you, don't you know the Starks are the most moral people on GoT lol?  Dany has proven she is unfit to be a ruler by burning prisoners of war, if she wants to be a fair and just leader she needs to do what the Starks do with prisoners of war - have them eaten alive by dogs.  Clearly that is much more humane.  Or maybe she could hold a sham trial to judge her enemies and include sterling evidence like visions from a tree, or suddenly changing her story in respect of the death of a relative.  Or perhaps Dany could poison all the male members of a family who wronged her and start baking people into pies.

[nikma]

49 minutes ago, anamika said:

I think D&D will try to justify it so much it will look like Dany is unfairly judging/executing him.

I'm not sure that D&D love Tyrion so much that they would destroy the show's ending because of him. I'm sure their intention will be to create conflicted, bittersweet™ feeling.

And I'm sure a lot of fans will hate Dany after that, but so what? It's good to have morally grey™ hero, who wins at the end.  

[nikma]

54 minutes ago, anamika said:

And it's even more hilarious to see Stark fans hate on Dany and venerate Jaime. The Jaime who tried to murder Bran and Arya, crippled Bran for life, killed Jory, killed lots of Robb's men in battle, threatened to catapult Edmure's baby to reinforce Frey rule in the Riverlands.

I don't want to insult anyone but Sansa, Cat and Daenerys being controversial characters in the fandom, long before the show, is very indicative. Male nerds (not everyone) only love tomboy characters like Arya.  They will always find a way to hate strong female characters. 

And, yeah Sansa, Dany and Cat made mistakes, but so did Tyrion, Stannis, Jaime and so on, and male nerds love them very much.  Stannis is a bad person, and mental gymnastics they use to justify his crimes and his claim to the IT is annoying and laughable at the same time.

"Right of conquest" is the stupidest thing I heard in book fandom. I wonder why they don't use the same arguments for Boltons in the North. 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

I don't want to insult anyone but Sansa, Cat and Daenerys being controversial characters in the fandom, long before the show, is very indicative. Male nerds (not everyone) only love tomboy characters like Arya.  They will always find a way to hate strong female characters. 

Male nerds adore Margaery, who's the femmest of the femme and couldn't swing a sword to save her life, and Olenna, an old woman who spends most of her time on the show insulting male nerds' faves (Jaime, Tyrion, Tywin, etc.), so no, it's not about hating on "strong female characters" who don't happen to be tomboys. Also, the reasons Sansa, Cat and Dany get hate, whether valid or not, have everything to do with specific actions on their parts, not how feminine they happen to be or their uselessness in a fight. Claiming otherwise is just something Sansa/Cat/Dany fans say to comfort themselves when their faves run up against fan ire for things that they have done. I've heard it from Sansa/Cat/Dany fans many times. "Fans just hate Sansa/Cat/Dany because she's feminine and isn't a tomboy!" Nope! 

An Emmy video of Conleth, Liam and Isaac is being discussed at /Freefolk. You can watch for yourself, but their reaction when asked about their personal feelings about the ending is a little troubling, as summarized by /gnaams here:

Quote

The interviewer asks if without giving anything away, they can speak on whether they’re personally happy with the outcome of the season. At that point they all look at each other, with Conleth and Liam exchanging a look, after which Liam laughs. Isaac mentions the show being ‘divisive’ and doubles down by saying not everyone will be happy. Interviewer asks what their thoughts were after reading the script, to which Isaac says he had to pace around. Conleth appears to nod knowingly.

Liam repeats GRRM’s claim of bittersweet and seems to be in agreement. Goes on to say that the big issues are dealt with, but not everything will be tied up in a bow. He says the scale of season 8 is extraordinary, asserts its beauty. The interviewer tries to confirm whether we can expect a spring premiere, they confirm but Liam goes on to say that they’re not really sure and that it’ll be ready when it’s ready. That’s it for relevance, methinks. Someone else add if I missed something, please.

I watched the video, and it looked like Conleth made a sour face when asked about the ending, which prompted Liam to burst out laughing.

Someone else on /Freefolk reminded me that someone in the production described the ending as "brave" a while back. In light of these interviews, "brave" is increasingly looking like code for "dogshit."

Edited September 19, 2018 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

14 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

But yes, who exactly told the Starks that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and how did they know this? 

They would assume it.  The idea of Lyanna running off with Rhaegar wouldn’t occur to anyone.

[nikma]

13 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I watched the video, and it looked like Conleth made a sour face when asked about the ending, which prompted Liam to burst out laughing.

I think that's because Varys dies in the first half of the season. Killed by Daenerys as traitor. 

14 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

"brave" is increasingly looking like code for "dogshit."

Well what dogshit even means in terms of GoT? Tyrion dead, and Jon and Dany ruling could be dogshit to some people. 

[bubble sparkly]

If the majority of the cast really don’t like the ending I’m curious as to what they hate about it. Is it because fan faves like Jon, Dany or Tyrion die? Is it too “Disney” and they were hoping for darker? Or is it that they don’t necessarily hate the  outcome but hate the way it happens?

[onyxrose81]

18 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I can't imagine Jon just up and leaving his younger siblings who he was just reunited with. 

That's why the whole "Jon and Dany abandon Westeros and leave forever and ever" thing doesn't sit well with me.  The remaining Starks are still his family...you mean to tell me he never wants to see Arya, Sansa and Bran (even if he's the 3ER) ever again?  That makes no sense to me.  I almost rather he be dead.  

[SimoneS]

Martin uses the term "bittersweet" referencing the ending of Lord of the Rings (LOTR) as does the cast, but I would argue that none of the rumors are in that vein. Yes, it is bitter that Frodo leaves LOTR, but it is a gift for his sacrifice and to relieve his suffering which is sweet. Our speculation based on rumors are some version of Jon and/or Dany and their baby dying or Tyrion betraying Dany and being executed. Where is the sweet in any of these scenarios? Either Martin doesn't know what bittersweet is or the rumors are wrong.

Edited September 19, 2018 by SimoneS

[nikma]

1 minute ago, SimoneS said:

Where is the sweet in any of these scenarios?

Well, the sweet is that Dany and Jon will rule and have a child and "make the world a better place" ™.

[SimoneS]

24 minutes ago, nikma said:

I think that's because Varys dies in the first half of the season. Killed by Daenerys as traitor. 

It is difficult to believe that Daenerys executes Varys and then episodes later Tyrion. It would be more believable if both are executed at once. Varys could die in the war. We are bound to have random casualties.

Edited September 19, 2018 by SimoneS

[nikma]

28 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

It is difficult to believe that Daenerys executes Varys and then episodes later Tyrion.

Why not? Varys dies in E2 and Tyrion in E6.  Varys' death could even serve as catalyst for Tyrion's betrayal. 

I don't think that Varys will die  as some random casualty. His death will serve some purpose. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by nikma

[Eyes High]

22 minutes ago, nikma said:

I think that's because Varys dies in the first half of the season. Killed by Daenerys as traitor. 

They were asked about the outcome of the season, though, not about their individual characters. 

Quote

Well what dogshit even means in terms of GoT? Tyrion dead, and Jon and Dany ruling could be dogshit to some people.

A bad ending is a bad ending, regardless of the show in question, and I'd argue there are only a few ways in which a show can have a bad ending:

1. Last-minute twist that completely undermines the very premise of the show and/or throws a beloved character under the bus.

2. Gratuitous bleakness.

3. Lack of narrative payoff: either no resolution to key plot points/relationships, or unsatisfactory, perfunctory or rushed resolution.

4. Excessive pretentiousness.

Pretty much every terrible series finale I can think of falls into one or more of these four categories. So which is it going to be for GOT?

GRRM has been vocal about how much he hated the LOST and BSG series finales, so it would be hilarious if the GOT finale is just as hated as either of them.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

They were asked about the outcome of the season, though, not about their individual characters. 

Yeah, but the way Liam laughed when he looked at him, suggests it is about Varys IMO.

 

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

1. Last-minute twist that completely undermines the very premise of the show and/or throws a beloved character under the bus.

2. Gratuitous bleakness.

3. Lack of narrative payoff: either no resolution to key plot points/relationships, or unsatisfactory, perfunctory or rushed resolution.

4. Excessive pretentiousness.

1. I don't think that there will be twist that completely undermines the very premise of the show, but if Tyrion's betrayal is not written well, that twist could feel forced

2. No way

3. For some people everything is rushed, but I think we will get resolution to every major plotline, the NK will die, his army will be destroyed and Tyrgeryans will be back in power

4. I don't think that will be the case

6 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM has been vocal about how much he hated the LOST and BSG series finales, so it would be hilarious if the GOT finale is just as hated as either of them.

GOT finale was planned years in advance. GRRM and D&D knew the ending for years, even decades. LOST just improvised along the way. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by nikma

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Where did Cogman say he wanted to name that episode "the Mad King's Daughter"?

It's a 3 parter, I think P2 or 3

[nikma]

I don't know what is the intention behind this narrative that cast and crew don't like the ending, but I think almost everything is taken out of context. I mean we are at the point when we are analyzing actors' faces to read their minds LOL.

Some actors said not everyone will like the ending, which is true if Tyrion dies at the end as traitor and Dany and Jon are rulers. And to be real, every option for the endging would be hated by some people. 

 

Let's play a game, if you are in their shoes, how would you describe the ending where Tyrion dies and Dany and Jon rule? If you are David Benioff, what would you say about that ending? 

[GrailKing]

30 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

It is difficult to believe that Daenerys executes Varys and then episodes later Tyrion. It would be more believable if both are executed at once. Varys could die in the war. We are bound to have random casualties.

 

Varys could also be framed by Tyrion, where we find out Varys was innocent, hence Danny charcoals him.

28 minutes ago, nikma said:

Why not? Varys dies in E2 and Tyrion in E6.  Varys' death could even serve as catalyst for Tyrion's betrayal. 

I don't think that Varys will die in was as some random casualty. His death will serve some purpose. 

 

Or visa versa, Tyrion's betrayal can lead to Vary's death.

 

Oh, thanks. :)

Edited September 19, 2018 by GrailKing

[YaddaYadda]

I know a lot of people have taken the scene between Mel and Varys about them being fated to die in "this strange land" to mean that they will die during the war (unless I'm forgetting something from that scene), but Varys has been living in Westeros since Aerys brought him over. He has served 3 different kings and he is serving Dany now, so it's like he is planning to leaving Westeros any time soon. That scene almost felt like something to freak Varys out because of his experience with magic and Kinvara. It just seems like his "war" is going to be with Melisandre.

[domina89]

8 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Jon doesn't need DANY'S acceptance though. How does Dany's acceptance actually help him with his Stark acceptance? He wants to be a Stark. Not a Targaryen.

You'd have to strip Jon of all connections and relationships and personal desires to make it seem like Dany has something to offer to him on a personal basis.

He dreams of Winterfell...somehow Dany solves that puzzle for him?

How do you know Jon wouldn't want to be a Targaryen?  He has known exactly two Targaryens in his lifetime and he likes and respects them both (past tense for Maester Aemon- RIP).  They both befriended him and helped him at a time he needed it.  He has had positive experiences with both of them.  As a boy he idolized Daeron I and pretended he was the young dragon when he played with Robb.  Yes, the Mad King was hated by everyone, but he was understood to be mad and certainly not representative of all Targs.  Jon decided to take a risk and meet with Dany, despite advice to the contrary and knowing she could be like her father but he gave her the benefit of the doubt and was rewarded for it by gaining her support.  In other words, he doesn't seem prejudiced against the Targs in general.

What Dany offers him is belonging with no baggage.  The Starks love Jon, but there will always be that uncomfortable feeling of growing up being the black sheep, the odd one out, and he can't forget that.  I'm not saying he will lose or forget his Stark-ness.  That's who raised him and it will be a part of him forever.  But I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that he might consider being half Targaryen a good thing once he processes it and accepts who he is.

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

How dare you, don't you know the Starks are the most moral people on GoT lol?  Dany has proven she is unfit to be a ruler by burning prisoners of war, if she wants to be a fair and just leader she needs to do what the Starks do with prisoners of war - have them eaten alive by dogs.  Clearly that is much more humane.  Or maybe she could hold a sham trial to judge her enemies and include sterling evidence like visions from a tree, or suddenly changing her story in respect of the death of a relative.  Or perhaps Dany could poison all the male members of a family who wronged her and start baking people into pies.

All this shows is that the female characters tend to be far more more ruthless than the male ones.  Jon and Robb are/were willing to kill but it's not like they told their direwolves to maul the Night's Watch traitors and Karstark to death.   Oleanna and Ellaria wanted to torch King's Landing while Tyrion argued for restraint.  Doran wasn't willing to go to war and the Sand Snakes/Ellaria killed him and his son for it.  Cersei blew up the sept - meanwhile, Jaime dishonored himself forever to stop Aerys from doing something similar (and this was smug bastard Jaime). 

This does not make all the men awesome and the women horrible, but it sure looks like Jon would be the good cop and Sansa/Arya/Dany the bad cop if they teamed up in some sort of police show.

[Stella]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

4 hours ago, nikma said:

Tumblr is leaking...

I have no clue what this means.

Yeah good question. But I'm pretty sure it mean that anyone that doesn't agree with the Jon/Dany Targ ending is from Tumblr. 

6 minutes ago, domina89 said:

What Dany offers him is belonging with no baggage.

LOL. They'll need a semi to haul around their baggage.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Stella

[anamika]

It will be bitter for me if Drogon, Rhaegal, Ghost and Nymeria end up dying. We have seen them grow up on the show! I am more attached to these CGI pets than to some of the human characters on the show. I hope that even if Ghost and Nymeria end up dying on the show because of CGI budget, GRRM means for them and for Summer and Shaggydog to survive and have a happy ending in the books.

I hope there is still one magical pet alive at the end of it all.

[WindyNights]

10 minutes ago, domina89 said:

How do you know Jon wouldn't want to be a Targaryen?  He has known exactly two Targaryens in his lifetime and he likes and respects them both (past tense for Maester Aemon- RIP).  They both befriended him and helped him at a time he needed it.  He has had positive experiences with both of them.  As a boy he idolized Daeron I and pretended he was the young dragon when he played with Robb.  Yes, the Mad King was hated by everyone, but he was understood to be mad and certainly not representative of all Targs.  Jon decided to take a risk and meet with Dany, despite advice to the contrary and knowing she could be like her father but he gave her the benefit of the doubt and was rewarded for it by gaining her support.  In other words, he doesn't seem prejudiced against the Targs in general.

What Dany offers him is belonging with no baggage.  The Starks love Jon, but there will always be that uncomfortable feeling of growing up being the black sheep, the odd one out, and he can't forget that.  I'm not saying he will lose or forget his Stark-ness.  That's who raised him and it will be a part of him forever.  But I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that he might consider being half Targaryen a good thing once he processes it and accepts who he is.

Errrrr, no. You're forgetting about the incest aspect. Jon wants to be a Stark because he wants to be Ned's true son. It's all wrapped around personal love for Ned.

 

Jon just doesn't know Rhaegar. I can almost guarantee that Jon would rather be Ned's bastard son than Rhaegar's legitimate son. Besides, that's how GRRM writes. He writes for emotional intensity and melo-drama since he's a Romantic writer.

[domina89]

3 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Errrrr, no. You're forgetting about the incest aspect. Jon wants to be a Stark because he wants to be Ned's true son. It's all wrapped around personal love for Ned.

He wants to be Ned's true son because he wants to BELONG to the family.  He doesn't want to be the one everyone looks down on because of the circumstances of his birth- something out of his control which leads to an unfair evaluation of his character.  He tries so hard to be like Ned because he wants to do something, anything, to countermand the prejudice against him because he's a bastard.  He may consider Ned his real father, and he is his adopted father for all intents and purposes, but Jon will soon have knowledge that could disillusion him.  Ned lied to him for his entire life and that lie allowed him to be treated with disrespect by pretty much everyone.  I think Jon will understand why Ned did it, but that won't make it any easier to swallow.  This is what I mean about the Starks.... baggage.

[Colorful Mess]

7 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

6x09? "My reign has just begun."

That was the dialogue, but the script direction also says,

"She only allows the faintest hint of a smile. A smile that says: my tyranny’s not ended, motherfucker. It’s only just begun."

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

I don't know what is the intention behind this narrative that cast and crew don't like the ending, but I think almost everything is taken out of context. I mean we are at the point when we are analyzing actors' faces to read their minds LOL.

Some actors said not everyone will like the ending, which is true if Tyrion dies at the end as traitor and Dany and Jon are rulers. And to be real, every option for the endging would be hated by some people. 

 

Let's play a game, if you are in their shoes, how would you describe the ending where Tyrion dies and Dany and Jon rule? If you are David Benioff, what would you say about that ending? 

Well, let's see what the cast (other than NCW) have said about the ending, and I'm loosely paraphrasing here:

1. Lena: Surprising (seriously, that's all she said)

2. Emilia: Filming Dany's last scene "fucked me up," had to take a three-hour drive after learning the ending

3. Maisie: Ending wasn't what she or her mom guessed, had to go back to the beginning of her storyline to make sense of her arc

4. Kit: Not everyone will like it

5. Isaac: It won't go the way some people want, not everyone will like it but it's an ending a la Game of Thrones, had to pace around for a while after reading the last script

6. Liam: Won't say whether he's happy with the ending

7. Conleth: Made a face when asked whether he's happy with the ending

8. Joe: It’s an ending he doesn't think many people will be expecting and he thinks, on reflection, people will really, really enjoy

9. Deborah Riley: S8 does not pull any punches and is raw, honest and important

10. Iain Glen: thought it was brilliant, but we'll have to see, you know with something this big, you can't please everyone

Someone else called the ending "brave." Someone called it divisive (Isaac?).

One or two of them, maybe, but all of them apart from NCW? And even NCW when asked to describe Season 8 called it surprising, shocking, and heartbreaking.

36 minutes ago, Stella said:

But I'm pretty sure it mean that anyone that doesn't agree with the Jon/Dany Targ ending is from Tumblr. 

You take that back!

...Just kidding, I think Jon/Dany Targ restoration is still a strong possibility, even if I have my doubts.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

@Eyes High

As I said, it's taken out of context, if something won't please everyone, it doesn't mean they don't like it.

And again, how would you describe the ending where Tyrion dies and Dany and Jon rule? If you are David Benioff, what would you say about that ending? 

Edited September 19, 2018 by nikma

[Eyes High]

4 minutes ago, nikma said:

@Eyes High

As I said, it's taken out of context, if something won't please everyone, it doesn't mean they don't like it.

And again, how would you describe the ending where Tyrion dies and Dany and Jon rule? If you are David Benioff, what would you say about that ending? 

Pretty much what Isaac said: as long as we've done justice to the story, we've done our jobs, but not everyone will like it.

[SeanC]

Though in fairness, not everybody liking it was guaranteed no matter what.  There are far too many differing, often diametrically opposed expectations and interpretations in the audience for any ending to satisfy all.  The best to be hoped for is “most”.

The period after the finale airs is going to be a fandom bloodbath of spurned theorists and others taking out their anger or schadenfreude on an epic scale not seen probably since Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows was published.

Edited September 19, 2018 by SeanC

[anamika]

28 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Well, let's see what the cast (other than NCW) have said about the ending, and I'm loosely paraphrasing here:

1. Lena: Surprising (seriously, that's all she said)

2. Emilia: Filming Dany's last scene "fucked me up," had to take a three-hour drive after learning the ending

3. Maisie: Ending wasn't what she or her mom guessed, had to go back to the beginning of her storyline to make sense of her arc

4. Kit: Not everyone will like it

5. Isaac: It won't go the way some people want, not everyone will like it but it's an ending a la Game of Thrones, had to pace around for a while after reading the last script

6. Liam: Won't say whether he's happy with the ending

7. Conleth: Made a face when asked whether he's happy with the ending

8. Joe: It’s an ending he doesn't think many people will be expecting and he thinks, on reflection, people will really, really enjoy

9. Deborah Riley: S8 does not pull any punches and is raw, honest and important

10. Iain Glen: thought it was brilliant, but we'll have to see, you know with something this big, you can't please everyone

Someone else called the ending "brave." Someone called it divisive (Isaac?).

One or two of them, maybe, but all of them apart from NCW? And even NCW when asked to describe Season 8 called it surprising, shocking, and heartbreaking.

 

Even Sophie Turner came off as being less than enthusiastic and that's something new!

Quote

And for the people, when they watch it, I hope there's going to be some satisfaction in that it's come to an end and that's how it goes. There will be some people who are disappointed, I'm sure, because they will want certain people to end up in certain places. But at this point, I'm just happy with whatever David and Dan choose to do with the story. I've trusted them for the past nine or 10 years of my life with this. However they decide to end it is fine by me.

Her main thing was that the ending is unpredictable and that's what she liked about the ending:

Quote

"For me – without giving anything away, I guess – I was satisfied with how unpredictable the show's ending really is," said the Sansa Stark actress.

"People have come up with so many fan theories about how it's going to end, and who will end up where, and who will end up with who. It really is so unpredictable the way that it ends up. I'm very satisfied with that, and I think that the fans will be satisfied with that, too.

And it's funny that pretty much all of them after being hesitant on the ending have talked up the big battles and epic scenes. Liam here, Emilia in her interviews, Sophie in hers.

Quote

"I mean, they definitely upped the ante [in the final episodes]. They've got nice, big battle scenes, that's for sure."

I think GOT final season will make for some amazing spectacle. Writing wise, I would not expect too much from these guys.

Other than NCW and maybe Ian Glen, it feel likes Maisie Williams seems fairly pleased with how it all ends.

Quote

Maisie on the S8 ending: “It’s either going to be everything that everyone dreamed of or it’s going to be disappointing. It depends what side of the fence you sit on because there’s definitely going to be that divide. It depends what people want from the final season. I love it, but you never know

Isaac also said in that interview above that he liked it but it will be divisive.

28 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Someone else called the ending "brave."

Could we be getting GRRM's Jon-Arya romance?!!

Edited September 19, 2018 by anamika

[Colorful Mess]

6 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

And this is the obvious misogyny of the show that certain of the audience have bought into. Because the Lannisters's War - to basically hold onto the power that they had murdered Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon for - was not just. Tyrion had the option to surrender King's Landing before it was attacked, and chose instead to send innocent soldiers into battle to defend his criminal family. 

A just war is built into the narrative - its not just the show's misrepresentation.

Just wars would be Robert's Rebellion and the fight against the WW.

In comparison to those, Dany's invasion looks unnecessary because deep down its just about her own personal desires. No one is threatening her safety. Sansa and Jon attacking Winterfell was at least about self-protection - Ramsay wanted to kill all the heirs to House Stark and he also held their brother captive. 

If she was really an abolitionist she'd stay in Meereen and try to resolve the deep rooted inequalities that would exist during a reconstruction period. Especially when slavery isn't something that would reasonably be solved in a year or however long she was in Meereen. I wouldn't be surprised if she hears news in S8 that Dragon's Bay has fallen back into slavery. So not only are there other wars that look more justified than hers, she also has other opportunities to do good, outside of Westeros.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Katsullivan]

8 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

A just war is built into the narrative - its not just the show's misrepresentation.

And the point is that the Lannisters's War was not just by any representation.

All this proves is that there's a subjective veering on misogynistic double standard when it comes to portraying and therefore appreciating characters on the show.

It's why regardless of how much asspull D & D do this final season, Dany is going to look tyrannical for murdering poor-innocent-Tyrion because even when he's literally burning people with the equivalent of a chemical bomb, he will still get the in-story justification that Dany won't.

It's why Tyrion's acts of treason are regarded as "personal" wrongs against Dany alone, and not the indirect murders of allies and their equally Ed-Sheeran-esque "good guys just doing their job" soldiers. It's why per the leaks, Tyrion's defense of a mass murderer like Cersei will be regarded as some how "nobler" than his loyalty to Dany.

[Eyes High]

28 minutes ago, anamika said:

Even Sophie Turner came off as being less than enthusiastic and that's something new!

I agree. 

She was very excited about the beginning of the season (seeing Sansa assume her destiny as LOW, or however she put it), but the ending? If the only thing she found satisfying was the shock factor, well...

Doesn't sound like a Queen/QITN Sansa ending, either, because you know Sophie would be all over that shit.

Quote

And it's funny that pretty much all of them after being hesitant on the ending have talked up the big battles and epic scenes. 

Yassssss! Peter Dinklage was asked whether the show could top the Battle of the Bastards and he was like "OH MY GOD YES."

Quote

I think GOT final season will make for some amazing spectacle. Writing wise, I would not expect too much from these guys.

That's my take. I don't demand Shakespeare-level writing, but it would be nice if we could keep the cringe moments to a minimum.

Quote

Other than NCW and maybe Ian Glen, it feel likes Maisie Williams seems fairly pleased with how it all ends.

At least she'll come out and say she actually likes the ending, which only a few cast members have been willing to do.

If Arya ends up as Lady of Winterfell, I could see Maisie being a bit confused by that and feeling the need to go back to the beginning of the show to understand that endgame in light of her arc. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

It will be bitter for me if Drogon, Rhaegal, Ghost and Nymeria end up dying. We have seen them grow up on the show! I am more attached to these CGI pets than to some of the human characters on the show. I hope that even if Ghost and Nymeria end up dying on the show because of CGI budget, GRRM means for them and for Summer and Shaggydog to survive and have a happy ending in the books.

I hope there is still one magical pet alive at the end of it all.

It would crush me to lose all our CGI animals. I just don't see the sweet in any of this. 

[nikma]

Can someone explain to me what is the point of posting these quotes from actors? To convince us that S8 will be bad? As someone said not everybody liking the ending was guaranteed no matter what, so what are you trying to prove exactly? That actors saying the obvious truth means they don't like the ending? 

Edited September 19, 2018 by nikma

[Colorful Mess]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Tyrion is already liberally whitewashed on the show. Even if they write a Tyrion betrayal arc, I think D&D will try to justify it so much it will look like Dany is unfairly judging/executing him. Look at his arc last season - Tyrion, the voice of morality!! Plus, he's a wildly popular character among book readers and show viewers. Considering the hate Dany gets for just roasting some random Tarlys, imagine how big the response is going to be when she roasts Tyrion? This will be like the 'fuck Olly' meme but ten times bigger.  If Dany executing Tyrion using dragonfire is indeed Dany's last scene, I can perfectly understand Emilia's reaction.

She's a female Walter White. At a certain point you're supposed to stop cheering. 

[Eyes High]

14 minutes ago, nikma said:

Can someone explain to me what is the point of posting these quotes from actors? To convince us that S8 will be bad? As someone said not everybody liking the ending was guaranteed no matter what, so what are you trying to prove exactly? That actors saying the obvious truth means they don't like the ending? 

 

I think the significance of almost all the actors either expressing a lack of enthusiasm over the ending (especially those who in the past have been invariably enthusiastic and effusive), using neutral or ambiguous language to describe their feelings about the ending, or cautioning that it will be divisive among the fans is self-explanatory.

It's their job to hype and praise the show in these interviews. If they can't even bring themselves to fake any real enthusiasm (except over epic battle sequences) and instead spend their interviews making faces and warning how not everyone will be happy, doesn't that say it all?

Edited September 19, 2018 by Eyes High

[Colorful Mess]

15 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

t's why regardless of how much asspull D & D do this final season, Dany is going to look tyrannical for murdering poor-innocent-Tyrion because even when he's literally burning people with the equivalent of a chemical bomb, he will still get the in-story justification that Dany won't.

It's why Tyrion's acts of treason are regarded as "personal" wrongs against Dany alone, and not the indirect murders of allies and their equally Ed-Sheeran-esque "good guys just doing their job" soldiers. It's why per the leaks, Tyrion's defense of a mass murderer like Cersei will be regarded as some how "nobler" than his loyalty to Dany.

I don't know if we're supposed to think that the Lannister war is a just one. At least with Stannis' attack on KL, we're supposed to feel conflicted and see points on both sides in that battle. At least I did.

It's also good to recognize that some of these people stan the Lannisters as villains. Meaning, they are fully aware that they're terrible people but they like their ruthlessness. There's nothing wrong with that. 

Tyrion's endgame is a big fat question mark though. I actually dont think Dany kills him and I don't think he's going to switch sides to Cersei. I think he ends up with all sides furious at him.

Because he fears wolves howling in his very first paragraph in the books, I have a feeling its wrapped up in something he does to the Starks. In particular Sansa. She might get the Cersei comparison - killing her husband and installing her family member on the throne. So there's an ironic parallel, if they wanted to go there.

[nikma]

Quote

 

He compared it to how some of his own favorite shows — The Sopranos, Breaking Badand The Wire — ended in ways that left viewers “never completely satisfied,” although he assured us that Thrones will not end in a diner as “Don’t Stop Believin’ ” plays in the background.

 

I wrote the writers when I finished reading and just said, ‘I don’t think you could’ve done a better job at finishing this story.’ To me, it was very satisfying but also very surprising and all the things that I was hoping for. It still made sense. 

“All of the things that you expect from ‘Game of Thrones’, but at the same time since it is the last one, the emotions will be so much more intense,” she said. “I am very excited for people to see it. We have been working so hard on it.”

Speaking of spoilers, Turner refuses to reveal details about Game of Thrones’ eighth and final season. “What can you know…this season is bloodier than ever. It’s full of betrayal, full of war, full of danger. That’s all I can say without giving too much away.” 

 

Sophie: “People have come up with so many fan theories about how it’s going to end, and who will end up where, and who will end up with who,” she contemplates. “It really is so unpredictable the way that it ends up. I’m very satisfied with that, and I think that the fans will be satisfied with that, too. "

“I’m sure David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] don’t pay too much attention to people’s theories and speculation there is all over the internet, but it would be a bit of an anti-climax if a well popularised theory turned out to be the way it ended. There’s many pitfalls and I think they really have achieved that with this. It’s an ending I don’t think many people will be expecting and I think, on reflection, people will really, really enjoy.”

Nathalie: “They’ve taken the exact number of hours to tell the story they want to tell and it will be brilliant. [The showrunners] will never leave the fans unsatisfied, they won’t leave the fans left short, it will go over and above the fans expectations as they do every season.”

 

“Yes, I hope [it does]. I can’t tell but I am one of the few people who have read the script and I know the ending. When I read it, I thought it was rather brilliant. I am a bit of a fan of the series as well so it satiated my expectation and hopes,” Glen assures us.

“We’re filming till the end of June and, you know, it’s all very exciting and very large,” Headey told Press Association. “Bigger and better than ever!”

 

 

 

Can this false impression that cast doesn't like S8 now stop? 

[anamika]

12 minutes ago, nikma said:

I’m sure David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] don’t pay too much attention to people’s theories and speculation there is all over the internet, but it would be a bit of an anti-climax if a well popularised theory turned out to be the way it ended. - Joe Dempsie

Does this not basically rule out Jon on the Iron Throne? Considering the most well popularized theory is that Jon, being the legitimate heir of Rhaegar Targaryen, is going to end up as endgame king?

Just reading Sophie's interviews, and she seems to stress in two different interviews given 6 months apart,  that everything about the end in terms of who ends up in power and character relationships will be unpredictable.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

There have been so many theories and so many discussions with what people think is going to happen — where they would like things to go, and who they would like to see in power, and who they want to see die. There will be some people who are disappointed, I'm sure, because they will want certain people to end up in certain places

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-sophie-turner-previews-final-season-1066499

1 hour ago, anamika said:

People have come up with so many fan theories about how it's going to end, and who will end up where, and who will end up with who. It really is so unpredictable the way that it ends up.

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/game-of-thrones/news/a860935/game-of-thrones-season-8-ending-sophie-turner-sansa/

I don't think that Jon/Dany on the Iron Throne is what we are getting here. 

[nikma]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

I don't think that Jon/Dany on the Iron Throne is what we are getting here. 

I thought the same, until I saw Tyrion's death spoiler. If Jon and Dany don't rule, who will? Sansa? Dany alone is still possible I guess. 

If Tyrion is responsible for Jon's death and Dany kills him because of that... Well, that would be "ending not everyone will like" LOL

 

And tbh I would like that ending LOL

Edited September 19, 2018 by nikma

[Stella]

1 hour ago, domina89 said:

I think Jon will understand why Ned did it, but that won't make it any easier to swallow.  This is what I mean about the Starks.... baggage.

Sure these points are valid. Jon will have to reconcile why Ned wanted to protect him from being murdered by Robert and created this bastard narrative to do so. There was no easy solution for Ned and maybe he failed Jon and everyone else. 

This all will pale in contrast to the Targ baggage. Which is a very big deal. 

[Eyes High]

37 minutes ago, nikma said:

 

 

Can this false impression that cast doesn't like S8 now stop? 

A close reading of those quotes suggests the opposite:

1. The thing Sophie says that she finds satisfying about the ending is that it’s unpredictable...which suggests that the other aspects of the ending are not satisfying. She said fans would be satisfied with how unpredictable the ending is.

2. Glen actually follows the statement about the ending you quoted with “But we will have to see, you can’t please everyone, etc.,” and you know what Jon said about everything before the word “but.”

3. Joe says that the ending is one that fans will enjoy on reflection, which suggests that they won’t enjoy it at all at first.

4. Kit compares GOT’s ending to those of his favourite shows in that it won’t leave fans completely satisfied.

And really, you can’t have it both ways when it comes to NCW’s take on the ending (not the season as a whole, but the ending). Either cast interviews mean something, in which case we have to consider not only NCW’s take on the ending but also the unenthusiastic or neutral takes of Sophie, Lena and others, or  they mean nothing, in which case NCW’s enthusiastic take is as worthless as a predictor as Lena’s unenthusiastic take.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

Maybe I'm not that worried about the last season, because every "controversial" ending I can imagine is something I could see work.

 

WW killing everyone, Cersei on the IT at the end, Dany killing Tyrion, because he is responsible for Jon's death, Jon and Dany dead and Tyrion and Sansa ruling, Tyrion, Jon and Dany dead, only Tyrion dead, and Jon and Dany rule,...

[nikma]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

1. The thing Sophie says that she finds satisfying about the ending is that it’s unpredictable...which suggests that the other aspects of the ending are not satisfying.

How what she said suggests that? She used one adjective to describe S8. One that was used for every season. It doesn't mean that excludes everything else.

 

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

2. Glen actually follows the statement about the ending you quoted with “But we will see” and you know what Jon said about everything before the word “but.”

So now his statement "when I read it, I thought it was rather brilliant" will be twisted into "I don't like it"? 

 

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

3. Joe says that the ending is one that fans will enjoy on reflection, which suggests that they won’t enjoy it at all at first.

Well, Tyrion dies as traitor, it will be just like Ned's death or RW, Who enjoyed that at first?

 

 

6 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

4. Kit compares GOT’s ending to those of his favourite shows in that it won’t leave fans completely satisfied.

He still compared GoT to 3 best TV shows of all time.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

unenthusiastic or neutral takes of Sophie, Lena and others,

Lena said that it was "bigger and better than ever". How is that unenthusiastic? Even in the past she never said that much about future seasons. 

 

And Sophie said "I’m very satisfied with that, and I think that the fans will be satisfied with that, too. " So what's unenthusiastic here? 

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

That was the dialogue, but the script direction also says,

"She only allows the faintest hint of a smile. A smile that says: my tyranny’s not ended, motherfucker. It’s only just begun."

LOL.

[Eyes High]

47 minutes ago, nikma said:

How what she said suggests that? She used one adjective to describe S8. One that was used for every season. It doesn't mean that excludes everything else. 

"I was satisfied with how unpredictable the show's ending is" is not the same thing as "I was satisfied with the show's ending." There is a big difference.

Look very closely at what she said, as @anamika quoted:

Quote

"For me – without giving anything away, I guess – I was satisfied with how unpredictable the show's ending really is," said the Sansa Stark actress.

"People have come up with so many fan theories about how it's going to end, and who will end up where, and who will end up with who. It really is so unpredictable the way that it ends up. I'm very satisfied with that, and I think that the fans will be satisfied with that, too.

She's qualifying what it is that she finds satisfying about the ending: "I was satisfied with how unpredictable the show's ending really is." Not with how everything turns out, but with how surprising it is, and she thinks the fans will be satisfied, again, with how unpredictable the ending is. Not with the ending itself, but the fact of it being surprising. It's a very cautious, careful answer, especially in light of what she says here:

Quote

And for the people, when they watch it, I hope there's going to be some satisfaction in that it's come to an end and that's how it goes. There will be some people who are disappointed, I'm sure, because they will want certain people to end up in certain places.  But at this point, I'm just happy with whatever David and Dan choose to do with the story. I've trusted them for the past nine or 10 years of my life with this. However they decide to end it is fine by me.

So she's saying that what she liked about the ending was that it was surprising, which is pretty damning in of itself, and she hopes that fans will at least feel satisfied that it's over. I mean, really?

It also sounds like she was anticipating this question and gave some thought beforehand to something positive she could say about the ending, and "It was unpredictable" was the best she could do? Talk about damning with faint praise.

Quote

So now his statement "when I read it, I thought it was rather brilliant" will be twisted into "I don't like it"? 

Yes, because again, he qualified it by adding "But we will have to see" and talking about how you can't please everyone, etc. etc. Again, it's cautious, careful, neutral language.

If he had said "I thought it was rather brilliant" and left it at that, that would be one thing, but he didn't say that, did he?

Why all this cagey, cautious business and neutral language from Sophie, Iain and others if the ending is actually any good? 

Quote

He still compared GoT to 3 best TV shows of all time.

Yes, but the comparison was that the ending wouldn't leave fans completely satisfied, and there were a lot of unhappy fans after the finale aired for The Sopranos.

Quote

Lena said that it was "bigger and better than ever". How is that unenthusiastic? Even in the past she never said that much about future seasons. 

When asked specifically about the ending (not the season as a whole, but the ending), all Lena could say was "Surprising." One word. And again, "surprising" is a neutral adjective. 

At this point, I think we're going in circles a bit, so I'll leave it at that, but it's actually quite shocking to me how muted the cast's reaction to the ending is. The only thing they're willing to rave about are the battles, so maybe that's all we should get excited about for Season 8.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Eyes High

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

I thought the same, until I saw Tyrion's death spoiler. If Jon and Dany don't rule, who will? Sansa? Dany alone is still possible I guess. 

If Tyrion is responsible for Jon's death and Dany kills him because of that... Well, that would be "ending not everyone will like" LOL

 

And tbh I would like that ending LOL

 

The three Stark kids could rule like a Stark version of Aegon and his two sisters.

But I'm guessing that Boatbaby lives and they rule until that baby grows up.

A Time for Wolves.

Edited September 19, 2018 by WindyNights

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Does this not basically rule out Jon on the Iron Throne? Considering the most well popularized theory is that Jon, being the legitimate heir of Rhaegar Targaryen, is going to end up as endgame king?

Just reading Sophie's interviews, and she seems to stress in two different interviews given 6 months apart,  that everything about the end in terms of who ends up in power and character relationships will be unpredictable.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-sophie-turner-previews-final-season-1066499

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/game-of-thrones/news/a860935/game-of-thrones-season-8-ending-sophie-turner-sansa/

I don't think that Jon/Dany on the Iron Throne is what we are getting here. 

Well, most popular TV fan theories are informed by what happens on the show, so maybe we'll get closer to the ending by looking at the most popular endgame assumptions based on the hints and developments in Season 7 and assuming that they won't happen:

1. Jon and Dany will NOT end up on the Iron Throne.

2. Tyrion WON'T be endgame Hand and/or Lord of Casterly Rock.

3. Sansa WON'T be Lady of Winterfell.

4. Bran WON'T be an emotionless, omniscient robot forever.

5. Arya WON'T go wandering or end up as a knight or a King/Queensguard.

6. Jaime WON'T die with Cersei.

And so on.

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Could we be getting GRRM's Jon-Arya romance?!!

You mean an endgame Aegon/Visenya/Rhaenys setup with Jon, Dany and Arya? Anything's possible, I guess. 

What really bugs me is that I'm stuck on this talk of "brave," "beautiful," and "raw, honest and important." They're obviously alluding to something, but what?

Edited September 19, 2018 by Eyes High