Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

So If Jon forces Sansa into an arranged marriage to benefit his political position, he's being shrewd and pragmatic, yet if Dany does the same thing it's an example of her ruling by fear and will end with her burning down Winterfell in a fit of rage?

If Jon does X, it's shrewd and pragmatic, but if Dany does X, it's proof that she's an evil tyrant. I don't make the rules, sorry.

/sineadbelfast posted some more alleged info about Season 8 at /Freefolk, but someone in the comments section pointed out that she spelled rumour "rumor" (the American way), so I won't bother posting it here. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Eyes High

[tangerine95]

34 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Yes?

Indeed, the writers have specifically talked about the show’s version of Lyanna Mormont (who, again, is considerably different from the book) as somebody they introduced because they thought she’d be a fun contrast with all the old white dude lords we’d been seeing; and her role was originally only one scene, expanded subsequent because Bella Ramsey was an immediate hit on set.

Moreover, even in your reality where Lyanna tried to assassinate Dany, that makes her a regicide and liable for execution by Jon’s own pronouncement.

Right,like Jon killed a kid for participating in his own assassination so I'd say even in this imo very unlikely reality where Dany kills Lyanna for attempting to murder her,Jon doesn't have much room to judge.

[Colorful Mess]

I'm saying she would be shrewd and pragmatic if she tried to conquer WF through Sansa/Tyrion, but it will also backfire because she's boxed herself in with no other moves or allies. (I'm speaking in game metaphors because cyvasse is important foreshadowing). 

I'm just giving folks a realpolitik view of Dany's options right now.  If she wants all 7 kingdoms, she either achieves it by 1) fire and blood, 2) marriage, or 3) give up the game and refuse to play. 

If it's Option 1 - that explains the Winterfell leaked photo

If it's Option 2 - the only card she has is Tyrion. And if she chooses this option, Jon becomes her enemy.

If it's Option 3 - I doubt it. At least not as early as the Winterfell battle. 

There is also a 4th way - by doing some act that wins the people over. But this is why they have written the Northern Lords so stubbornly. They won't kneel to her.

The story has put these demands on her - not me.

Jon isn't the one conquering territory and trying to claim all 7 kingdoms, and he's not the type to use dragons to rule by fear. If he's endgame king, he has more built-in political capital and trust than Dany will have. If that's sexist, well...it's GRRM's issue. 

[tangerine95]

1 minute ago, Colorful Mess said:

I'm saying she would be shrewd and pragmatic if she tried to conquer WF through Sansa/Tyrion, but it will also backfire because she's boxed herself in with no other moves or allies. (I'm speaking in game metaphors because cyvasse is important foreshadowing). 

I'm just giving folks a realpolitik view of Dany's options right now.  If she wants all 7 kingdoms, she either achieves it by 1) fire and blood, 2) marriage, or 3) give up the game and refuse to play. 

If it's Option 1 - that explains the Winterfell leaked photo

If it's Option 2 - the only card she has is Tyrion. And if she chooses this option, Jon becomes her enemy.

If it's Option 3 - I doubt it. At least not as early as the Winterfell battle. 

There is also a 4th way - by doing some act that wins the people over. But this is why they have written the Northern Lords so stubbornly. They won't kneel to her.

The story has put these demands on her - not me.

Jon isn't the one conquering territory and trying to claim all 7 kingdoms, and he's not the type to use dragons to rule by fear. If he's endgame king, he has more built-in political capital and trust than Dany will have. If that's sexist, well...it's GRRM's issue. 

I don't think those are her only options.I think the fact that she's coming to protect the north is a lot more powerful than forcing Tyrion,a Lannister, to marry or consummate his marriage to Sansa.Imo it's going to be pretty simple and once she helps protect these people and they see she's their best chance they'll accept her.Kinda like in season 6 when Jon and Sansa asked for help from northern houses and got rejected by the majority and then once they won the battle and freed the north from the Boltons,Jon was pronounced king and they won the support of those who previously rejected them.It's the end of the world basically at this point,I don't think political games will be as important as they used to be at the start.

[Eyes High]

5 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I don't think those are her only options.I think the fact that she's coming to protect the north is a lot more powerful than forcing Tyrion,a Lannister, to marry or consummate his marriage to Sansa.Imo it's going to be pretty simple and once she helps protect these people and they see she's their best chance they'll accept her. Kinda like in season 6 when Jon and Sansa asked for help from northern houses and got rejected by the majority and then once they won the battle and freed the north from the Boltons,Jon was pronounced king and they won the support of those who previously rejected them.It's the end of the world basically at this point,I don't think political games will be as important as they used to be at the start.

Yes, exactly! Just as Jon said in Season 7, they'll see Dany for what she really is: a rescuer who puts her life on the line to do what's right.

I don't doubt there will be some resistance to Dany at the start--blah blah foreign whore blah blah--but I'm certain that will melt away once the shit hits the fan, as we know it will.

[Colorful Mess]

Dany won't be able to escape the politics, just because there are wights. That's too convenient. Every contender for the throne has to confront the same rules, and Dany is running up against a sentiment of fierce Northern Independence. They're not going to be impressed by her, no matter what she does. Jon knows this: "My people will never accept a southern ruler." Never. Then he says they'll see her for "what" she is. The only explanation for this contradiction is that he's flattering her. "What she is" is an ambiguous line thrown in by D&D, and quite foreboding if you think about how many times she's been told she's a conqueror and not meant to sit on an Iron Chair.

[shireenbamfatheon]

Someone leak the damn spoilers already.

[SeanC]

49 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Every contender for the throne has to confront the same rules, and Dany is running up against a sentiment of fierce Northern Independence. They're not going to be impressed by her, no matter what she does. Jon knows this: "My people will never accept a southern ruler." Never. Then he says they'll see her for "what" she is. The only explanation for this contradiction is that he's flattering her. "What she is" is an ambiguous line thrown in by D&D, and quite foreboding if you think about how many times she's been told she's a conqueror and not meant to sit on an Iron Chair.

The Northern lords are, to quote Sansa, “bloody wind vanes”. 

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Yes, exactly! Just as Jon said in Season 7, they'll see Dany for what she really is: a rescuer who puts her life on the line to do what's right.

I don't doubt there will be some resistance to Dany at the start--blah blah foreign whore blah blah--but I'm certain that will melt away once the shit hits the fan, as we know it will.

I think that statement is meant to be ironic considering that Daenerys was written to be controversial and D & D try to ham-fistedly write her that way.

 

Like, I think Daenerys is meant to go down in history as polarizing.

 

Then again, I've always thought she'd be loved in the North and hated in the South.

[Wouter]

On 30-7-2018 at 12:49 AM, Colorful Mess said:

This has many assumptions:

• "Invasion" excludes fAegon - we don't know that. Invasion comes in stages. In Aegon's day: "Aegon turned his attention back on Dorne in 4 AC. The king launched a new invasion, hoping to complete his conquest." (Aegon I wiki). fAegon could be included in a second stage of "Dany's invasion." Furthermore, we don't know who she will attack first. 
• The Dance ends with fAegon - we don't know that. It could be Part 1 of this entire "dance" anyway, because the first DoD was sprawling, and epic in scope. It probably involves more than just Varys' puppet vs. Dany's dragons. She could make short work of him, and the grey plague may even help thin out the Golden Company. Then we're left with a very weak reference to something that could be much more meaningful later on with a secret Targaryen (Jon) who will have more substantive interactions with her. So those romantic metaphors can take on more biting irony.
• fAegon can ride/steal a dragon successfully - are we sure? The first DoD had dragon riders fighting in the sky. Is fAegon going to be on that level, or ability, or narrative sense? The dude can't even ask for his own marriage proposal. He expects Jon Con to do it. I bet he will get roasted if he even tries. That's not very Dance-worthy, IMO.

[...]

There is no Night King in the books. So the show would be very off book in the home stretch, when they should be getting closer to GRRM's end by that point. If they replaced a Targ vs. Targ war with a Made-up-zombie-leader vs. a Targ, the entire significance of the term is lost. I know, I know, many people think they're just writing whatever they want, but I disagree with that view for S8. GRRM would be smart enough to write it in his contracts that they cannot completely rewrite the ending - there has to be some cohesion around the end. Different roads, same castle.

[...]

Winterfell burns, according to set photos - so I'll add more details to my speculation: I think Dany finds herself boxed in a corner up North.

 

When GRRM made his invasion comment, the audience had yet to be introduced to (f)Aegon. In 2006, every reader was expecting Dany to invade Westeros (at some point) and fight the current regime (Lannisters/Tyrells), probably Stannis and possibly the Starks. So, when GRRM said "the Dance isn't going to be about Dany's invasion" he would still be correct if it is about an internal Targaryen (or rather, Blackfyre/Targaryen) fight with Dany possibly not even getting to fight Lannisters if (f)Aegon and Dorne have already taken care of that.

We're not sure (f)Aegon can get his hands on a dragon - however, as you rightly point out, the NK doesn't exist in its show capacity in the books. (f)Aegon is one of the possible causes for Dany to lose a dragon, instead of what happened in S7. This may be indirectly (though Aegon likely has dragonblood, as Blackfyres are a Targ offshoot with very similar bloodline). There is the dragonhorn of Euron/Victarion, that will play a part. If Tyrion happens to get a  dragon in the books (Viserion was usually the one speculated), he could defect to Aegon and be one of Dany's big treasons (though if so, there should be fallout of that in the show, so it's rather unlikely). There is a mercenary with some dragonblood in the books, who may succeed where Quentyn Martell failed.

Or Dany could even gift a dragon to (f)Aegon directly (she may likely be delighted at first thinkinh Rhaegar's son survived), before realising he isn't quite who he is claimed to be (even if he himself may not even know that). There may be other possibilities I didn't think of.

So I don't think there will be an S8 conflict between Jon and Dany (except maybe some tension as his parentage comes out, or regarding Sam and the Tarlys). And while Winterfell seemingly burns, it looks like there will be survivors. Maybe Dany sets the castle on fire because if has been overwhelmed by wights (with survivors somehow escaping), or only the outer wall is breached and she torches the part between outer and inner wall to save the inner sanctum (or the defenders arranged this themselves as a last-ditch defense, with or without her help). Or maybe rumours about a Golden Company attack are correct and they torch the castle. Lots of possibilities here, still.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Wouter

[Colorful Mess]

I don't disagree with fAegon vs. Dany. I'm just not convinced that this dragon vs. dragon war stops with fAegon. Dany would still have 2 dragons after that, and fAegon doesn't have a plot where he flips the tables on her claim out of nowhere. R+L=J removes Ned's protection. The boatsex montage: "Promise me, Ned. You have to protect him." And, why does protection matter NOW in that particular instance? Answer: Dany will be a threat.

If blowing that cover won't matter to the story, then it should have happened before he even met Dany. Now, it will be revealed at the worst possible time because the North is going to be in a political quagmire over Jon's kneel. Jon's boned her too, so he's made it infinitely worse. He stepped into the dragon's lair without knowledge. 

Consider: the entire North pulls a Randyll: "You are not my queen." They shun Jon as a dragonspawn who gave up the North, in their mind, because he got a hard on for a hot lady (literally the worst reason ever).

Jon and Dany can marry, but he gives her no territory or castles that she needs to conquer Westeros - it just neutralizes his claim. So what now? Does Jon to help her take back the North with fire and blood? Jon would reject that option, clearly. Or does she back down and decide - naaah, I'll rule 6 kingdoms instead? 

fAegon has red herring written all over him; he would cause her to think all her treasons are out of the way. However, Jon became a contender for treason as soon as he said "my queen." Because a person can only be charged with treason if they're sworn into the crown's service. When old school book purists made those predictions about fAegon, they had no idea about these developments.

Finally, Ned called Jon a Stark in their parting scene. This is REALLY important, because Ned knew he wasn't one officially. I think this will be of crucial importance to the plot. I don't think Jon is going to say "I am a Targaryen and I'm a Stark" exactly - instead he will echo Ned's words to him: "I may not have the Stark name. But I am a Stark." Choosing Dany involves being run out of the North, his home, and the entire reason he met with her in the first place. Which is why I think, at minimum, he's the treason for blood. 

[bubble sparkly]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

Finally, Ned called Jon a Stark in their parting scene. This is REALLY important, because Ned knew he wasn't one officially. I think this will be of crucial importance to the plot. I don't think Jon is going to say "I am a Targaryen and I'm a Stark" exactly - instead he will echo Ned's words to him: "I may not have the Stark name. But I am a Stark."

I thought that conversation between Theon and Jon was a damn anvil, because there was absolutely no need for them to have that dialogue if it wasn't going to be foreshadowing for Jon.  There doesn't seem to be any logical reason why Jon can't embrace being both a Stark and a Targ, and it would be a bit of a slap in his dead mother's face if he turned away from his Targ side since she seemed to think it was so important that she gave him the most Targ name to ever Targ.

Bran will be able to explain that Rheagar and Lyanna were in love and got married, so Jon will know Rhaegar wasn't a rapist.  Both R&L's conduct was far from perfect, but that didn't stop Jon loving Ned when he though Ned broke his marriage vows.  From what we know R&L would have been loving parents to Jon if they hadn't died, so there's no reason he can't think of them both fondly.  Plus, Jon has known two Targs and loved and respected both of them so it's not like he's holding onto the same "all Targ's are evil" prejudices that some of the other Lords have.

Also, Jon has continually stated since season 1 that he's not a Stark, and said it again last season (at the same time he got swooped by a dragon, in a very anvil-laden moment).  He could have easily given himself the Stark last name after being crowned KITN, but he didn't.  It would have made better sense politically for him to no longer have a bastard name, but for whatever reason he didn't change his name.  In the books Jon has dreams that the king statues tell him he doesn't belong in the Stark crypts.  He turns down Stannis' request to be excused from his NW vows and be legitimised as a Stark.  Basically, every time Jon has the opportunity to be a "proper" Stark he holds himself back, probably his subconscious (or GRRM) preventing him from going full-Stark because that's not who he really is.

I think the logical conclusion to Jon's arc is to accept both sides of his heritage.  He will probably always identify more strongly with the Stark side since he was raised in the North and will surely still consider the Starks his siblings, but that doesn't prevent him from accepting the Targ side as well.

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Consider: the entire North pulls a Randyll: "You are not my queen." They shun Jon as a dragonspawn who gave up the North, in their mind, because he got a hard on for a hot lady (literally the worst reason ever).

 

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Choosing Dany involves being run out of the North, his home, and the entire reason he met with her in the first place. Which is why I think, at minimum, he's the treason for blood. 

If the Northerners are going to shun Jon for being evil dragonspawn then wouldn't he be run out of the North anyway?  Hiding out in Winterfell would be a danger to Sansa's rule because the Northern Lords would surely turn on her pretty quickly for harbouring dragonspawn.  Jon would either have to leave the North or risk the Starks being overthrown as leaders because of their association with his evil Targ self.

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Jon and Dany can marry, but he gives her no territory or castles that she needs to conquer Westeros - it just neutralizes his claim. So what now? Does Jon to help her take back the North with fire and blood? Jon would reject that option, clearly. Or does she back down and decide - naaah, I'll rule 6 kingdoms instead? 

S7 showed that Dany eventually acquiesced to every single suggestion/request that Jon made.  She let him mine dragonglass, she followed his advice not to attack the red keep with her dragons, she withdrew her objection to him going on the wight hunt, and she agreed to go North and help him fight the NK before he bent the knee.  If Jon told Dany point blank that he would marry her to unite their competing claims to the throne, but only on the condition that she had to cease burning people with her dragons and let the North be independent, based on s7 she would probably agree to those terms in the space of 1 or 2 episodes.

[SeanC]

8 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

If blowing that cover won't matter to the story, then it should have happened before he even met Dany. 

Nobody has said that the revelation won’t matter to the story.  But withholding the reveal until this point has the rather obvious effect of allowing him to fall in love with Dany without knowing they’re related.

[Leila6]

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

Nobody has said that the revelation won’t matter to the story.  But withholding the reveal until this point has the rather obvious effect of allowing him to fall in love with Dany without knowing they’re related.

And it allows Dany to fall in love with him and see the truth of the AOTD before learning Jon has a competing (better, from an inheritance standpoint) claim to the throne. If she had known that beforehand, she probably wouldn’t have grown to trust him as she does. They need to trust each other and act as a united front in this war if they have any chance of winning.

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, Leila6 said:

And it allows Dany to fall in love with him and see the truth of the AOTD before learning Jon has a competing (better, from an inheritance standpoint) claim to the throne. If she had known that beforehand, she probably wouldn’t have grown to trust him as she does. They need to trust each other and act as a united front in this war if they have any chance of winning.

Think about what this means from a Doylist standpoint. 

- the two heroes do everything they're supposed to do

- R+L=J is just a device for "personal growth" for the super special couple

- It makes for a good argument but serves no other purpose because everything goes back to normal

Yes, his cover helped get her North. There is no indication that trust will continue in S8, however. Dany has every reason to break HER promise now because of Cersei, and the fact that Jon made her think she has the North, when in reality she doesn't.

She will realize Cersei has the South, that she doesn't have the North, that the people of Westeros don't support her, and now Jon isn't who he says he is. That's less reason to trust everyone now.

[Colorful Mess]

7 hours ago, SeanC said:

Nobody has said that the revelation won’t matter to the story.  But withholding the reveal until this point has the rather obvious effect of allowing him to fall in love with Dany without knowing they’re related.

Seems to me like it won't matter if everyone just marches off to kill zombies together after they have a lover's spat.

Oedipus was "in love with" Jocasta, and we know how that turned out. 

Jon was in love with Ygritte and he still betrayed her.

Jon having sex with Dany makes things worse, not better.

[glowbug]

But Jon doesn’t even know he’s the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna so it’s not like he’s deceiving her. Why would she not trust him? Dany is in love with Jon so she’s not just going to do a 180 and think he’s evil. Jon is also in love with Dany, thinks she’s a good person and a good leader, and he doesn’t really want power in the show so he’ll probably still support her claim. I’m sure the revelation will create some tension in their relationship because both of them are going to need to grapple with the fact that what they believed about their families, themselves, and their positions in the world is based on a lie (obviously, more for Jon than Dany), but they both love and respect each other, and are going to be having a baby together so I predict it will be resolved between them. The revelation may cause issues between Dany and others like Varys or maybe Tyrion if she suspects they favor Jon over her but I can’t see her believing that Jon is conspiring with them. The solution to their competing claims is to get married and rule jointly, something that makes personal sense as well as political sense given the baby and their feelings for each other. If they don’t get married it will in all likelihood be because one of them dies before they can, although I’ll be sad if Jon’s fate is to end up fathering a bastard since it was one of his fears. He says he abstained from sex before the Night’s Watch because he didn’t want to risk it. 

Edited July 31, 2018 by glowbug

[SeanC]

18 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Jon having sex with Dany makes things worse, not better.

Why, since it almost certainly leads to Dany's miracle pregnancy, and by that point Jon had already shown himself perfectly willing to renounce any claims he might have.  I expect the aunt-cousin thing will lead to some angst, at least in the show (I don't think so in the books, since aunt-cousin relationships don't seem to be a problem in ASOIAF, whereas the show has a greater tendency to operate by anachronistic morals).

[Lemuria]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

and the fact that Jon made her think she has the North, when in reality she doesn't.

But any promise he made to her was made in good faith.  I don't believe she's justified in breaking it for a later development he knew nothing about.  It makes her look bad if she uses that as a justification to renege on agreeing to fight the AoTD.  And, besides, if she still intends to rule Westeros, she needs to make sure it still exists, doesn't she?

[tangerine95]

I don't think Dany will break her promise when she finds out Cersei betrayed them.She promised to fight the WW on the boat,before they got a truce and she knew there was always a chance that Cersei won't go for it and would try something.So I don't think that will be a problem at all.And she definitely won't break it when/if the north refuses to accept her because she didn't require him to bend the knee when he did and she's also fully aware they won't be happy about it.

Edited July 31, 2018 by tangerine95

[Colorful Mess]

I think there is a lot of jumping to conclusions going on about Jon. There are several visual warning signs that he's not as into her, as she is:

1) he never physically knelt to her like Tyrion, Daario, and Jorah. If he loved her, he should have physically bent those knees in public. I shouldn't have to question why he didn't.

2) he did not look back at her while he was leaving for the wight hunt, like Jorah did. I shouldn't have to question why they failed to execute this basic romantic trope when they've done it for other couples (Missandei/Greyworm, Jaime/Brienne).

3) I find it unbelievable that he actually wants to father a bastard. He has sex out of wedlock, willingly, when he couldn't even have sex with a whore? If he cares for her, he has a questionable way of showing it. He's wiling to dishonor her and violate the primary principle that he's lived his entire life. If he was "giving into passion," there should have been dialogue to indicate this. Or at least a first kiss. I shouldn't have to question why there wasn't.

4) The Greyworm/Missandei sex scene got 4:50 minutes of screen time, with proper undressing, kissing, dialogue, and sexual tension. Jon/Dany's got 28 seconds in comparison. These two run times should have been reversed. I shouldn't have to question why they spent more time on the love scene for an invented couple than the love scene for the couple who is the entire point of the series (apparently). He knocks --> they're fucking. It's about as "loving" as a john and his call girl. 

5) Jon's hesitation for knocking on her door. I just find the idea that he's nervous about having sex with "a queen" laughable and silly, if that's really what it is.

Since the Jon/Dany sex scene was so short, we should pay more attention to the montage and Tyrion's reaction. It's not just about "oh no it's incest," it's about how he's mixing sex and politics, how Ned's protection will matter to the future, and ends with them sailing into a storm (literally - we get a shot of where the ship is headed). These signs are not suggestive of a HEA. The montage was NOT telling us that Jon was created specifically so that he can cure Dany's infertility. It's quite a racist message if only the special magical superhumans can successfully breed with each other and keep the bloodline pure so they can continue to be magical and exceptional.

My guess is that in S8 the danger to Jon comes down to some combination of the following: his claim outranking hers; not wanting to live the Targaryen lifestyle of exceptionalism and incest because he wasn't grown up that way; anger at her for burning prisoners (Sams' family); Dany not keeping her promise to help because Cersei lied; her not having the North while Jon misled her into thinking that she would; Jon refusing to marry her; and Jon keeping the Targaryen name yet siding with the Starks - among other unforeseen things that could still happen. Regardless, I'd say that's enough table setting for a war, a la Hector vs. Achilles.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[GraceK]

Spoilers and set leaks have made it clear where season 8 is headed. This is all massive leaps and knot twisting to rewrite character motivations to fit a narrative that fits a certain bias. 

Jon loves Dany and Dany loves Jon. There is no conspiracy here. Dan and David have said it. Jeremy Podeswa, the director of the Dragon and the Wolf, has said it is cosmic DESTINY that has brought  these two together and that they are in love. 

Cast interviews, interviews with the directors, and writers, and showrunners have all stated, unequivocally, that Jon and Dany are really and truly in love. This obsessive need by some people to make it about Jon just wanting to get his cock wet, or that he is trying to manipulate Daenarys, or that is all part of some great scheme is bordering on deranged now. 

There is bound to be some conflict about his parentage reveal. Duh. But it’s not going to turn Them into enemies. There are 6 episodes left and the final boss has been set up as The NK. Viserion is dead and has become an undead white walker dragon  and the NK has crumbled the wall. Cersei has betrayed them.  Those are the threats they are facing . Dance of the Dragons has been set up clearly with the NK/Viserion and Dany/Drogon with a possible Jon/Rhaegal surprise. 

This thread has gone in circles for days now. Maybe someone should just start a “conspiracy theories” or “alternative facts” thread instead.

Edited July 31, 2018 by GraceK

[SeanC]

14 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

3) I find it unbelievable that he actually wants to father a bastard. He has sex out of wedlock, willingly, when he couldn't even have sex with a whore? If he cares for her, he has a questionable way of showing it. He's wiling to dishonor her and violate the primary principle that he's lived his entire life. If he was "giving into passion," there should have been dialogue to indicate this. Or at least a first kiss. I shouldn't have to question why there wasn't.

Remember Ygritte?  Jon already cleared that hurdle.

[Colorful Mess]

59 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

But any promise he made to her was made in good faith.  I don't believe she's justified in breaking it for a later development he knew nothing about.  It makes her look bad if she uses that as a justification to renege on agreeing to fight the AoTD.  And, besides, if she still intends to rule Westeros, she needs to make sure it still exists, doesn't she?

But he does know the development - he says that his people will never accept a Southern ruler. He knows how they're going to react. He knows they won't kneel to her. What else to make of this contradiction, except that he's flattering her?

Dany saw the army of the dead and the Night King - no doubt it affected her. But for some reason she's still fixated on Cersei: "I can't pretend Cersei won't take back half the country the moment I march North." 

Jon "knelt" to her and she STILL wanted more stuff? She saw the AOTD and STILL hesitates?

What kind of hero waits for a ceasefire before they march off to save people? 

[Colorful Mess]

17 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Also, Jon has continually stated since season 1 that he's not a Stark, and said it again last season (at the same time he got swooped by a dragon, in a very anvil-laden moment).  He could have easily given himself the Stark last name after being crowned KITN, but he didn't.  It would have made better sense politically for him to no longer have a bastard name, but for whatever reason he didn't change his name.  In the books Jon has dreams that the king statues tell him he doesn't belong in the Stark crypts.  He turns down Stannis' request to be excused from his NW vows and be legitimised as a Stark.  Basically, every time Jon has the opportunity to be a "proper" Stark he holds himself back, probably his subconscious (or GRRM) preventing him from going full-Stark because that's not who he really is.

I think the logical conclusion to Jon's arc is to accept both sides of his heritage.  He will probably always identify more strongly with the Stark side since he was raised in the North and will surely still consider the Starks his siblings, but that doesn't prevent him from accepting the Targ side as well.

I think the books aren't over yet, so those scenes are in the middle of his arc. It's self-denial for the catharsis moment at the end. "I am a Stark" would mean that he finally listens to what Ned, et al. are telling him. Ned told him this knowing that he was a Targaryen. He's saying, "no matter what your name is, this is who you are."

There is little dramatic irony in him saying "I'm a Targaryen and I'm a Stark." The "truth" is something that's been there all along - it's that he's a Stark.

He has no ties to his Targaryen side. He has no investment or interest in claiming that destiny. He would only be doing it for Dany, and as you can probably tell, I just dont think his love for her is that strong.

This ties into a larger theme. It inverts the entire feudalistic idea that the name is more symbolic than the person behind it. If you're a Lannister, you're supposed to act like a Lannister. If you're a Targaryen, you're supposed to want to be a Targaryen. If you're a Greyjoy, you have to act like a Greyjoy. Jon said to Theon that "maybe" he could be both - sure. You can identify that way privately. But what's funny is that you cannot be "both" in the realm of politics. Balon wouldn't allow him to be both. I think politically Jon takes the name. But I don't see him marrying a Targaryen. Targaryens marry each other, and that's just not what he's about. That's why fAegon is a better match for her.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[dragonsbite]

oh thank god. y'all have stopped arguing about Sansa.

[Colorful Mess]

43 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Remember Ygritte?  Jon already cleared that hurdle.

That was consensual?

[GraceK]

10 minutes ago, dragonsbite said:

oh thank god. y'all have stopped arguing about Sansa.

?????  

Edited July 31, 2018 by GraceK

[bubble sparkly]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

3) I find it unbelievable that he actually wants to father a bastard. He has sex out of wedlock, willingly, when he couldn't even have sex with a whore? If he cares for her, he has a questionable way of showing it.

Jon more than likely doesn't want to father a bastard, but you seem to be missing the point that he can marry Dany and thus their child would not need to be a bastard.  They are both single and in love, so there's nothing preventing a J/D marriage when Dany inevitably turns up pregnant.  Besides, the dragon pit scene was basically just Jon flirting with Dany and telling her that he would be more than willing to put a baby in her given half a chance.  Seems like he's pretty keen on knocking her up, and given his past comments must have therefore put some thought into marrying her.

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Jon's hesitation for knocking on her door. I just find the idea that he's nervous about having sex with "a queen" laughable and silly, if that's really what it is.

Considering Jon has had sex with one girl and that was about 4 years ago now, I don't see why he wouldn't be a little bit nervous seducing anyone, queen or commoner.  He's never exactly been a suave ladies man.  Poor guy was probably afraid he was going to embarrass himself.

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

I think politically Jon takes the name. But I don't see him marrying a Targaryen. Targaryens marry each other, and that's just not what he's about.

So Jon is going to let the world know he's Rhaegar's legitimate son, take the Targ name openly, use it to become KO7K, maybe even ride a dragon, yet secretly he's going to be all "Targ's suck, I'm a Stark only until my dying days"?  That basically makes it seem like Jon thinks the Stark name is too embarrassing and not enough of a cache to use openly if he's all about denying the Stark side of himself in public.

Also, Starks practice avuncular marriage, like Jon and Dany would be, so it's not like his family would bat an eye if he decided to marry the Dany.

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

But he does know the development - he says that his people will never accept a Southern ruler. He knows how they're going to react. He knows they won't kneel to her. What else to make of this contradiction, except that he's flattering her?

He literally explains his reasoning.  He changed his mind on Dany, and he believes everybody else will too.  It's that simple.

I think his kneeling to Dany was a stupid thing to do, based on what she'd already committed to doing at that point, but Jon was absolutely sincere in doing so.

Quote

Dany saw the army of the dead and the Night King - no doubt it affected her. But for some reason she's still fixated on Cersei: "I can't pretend Cersei won't take back half the country the moment I march North." 

Jon "knelt" to her and she STILL wanted more stuff? She saw the AOTD and STILL hesitates?

What kind of hero waits for a ceasefire before they march off to save people? 

She wasn't hesitating, she was concerned about how abandoning the south would affect her position.  And indeed, Cersei is planning to betray them and apparently does launch an attack that causes damage to the Stark-Targaryen cause, so being worried about her is in-universe the intelligent thing to do.

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

That was consensual?

The Jon/Ygritte relationship in the books is basically a male version of a bodice ripper, a romance novel genre that has a lot of influence on GRRM's writing, and in the show the questionable elements are even more downplayed.  Jon's feelings for Ygritte were genuine, as is undeniable from his POV.

Edited August 1, 2018 by SeanC

[Colorful Mess]

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

He literally explains his reasoning.  He changed his mind on Dany, and he believes everybody else will too.  It's that simple.

I think his kneeling to Dany was a stupid thing to do, based on what she'd already committed to doing at that point, but Jon was absolutely sincere in doing so.

I think the reverse. I think bending the knee was strategically his best option because she was not committed by that point. And he was half right - she was shown later to be indecisive and apparently invested in the waste-of-time ceasefire. What I have a problem with is his apparently naive belief that his people will be in awe of her. What should have impressed him more is that his uncle he thought was dead came out of nowhere to save his life. Jon knows that him bending the knee to her will also piss them off, and yet he tells her they'll just get over it? So it's the dumb naivety I have a problem with - that he thinks his people will come to love this Targaryen as their new overlord.

Jon snow is either flattering her or he lost all his brain cells because he's got a crush. If its the latter, he pulls a Robb when he should be learning from his mistakes. I'd rather believe the former. Time will tell on this I guess. S8 needs to come out now, please.

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

She wasn't hesitating, she was concerned about how abandoning the south would affect her position.  And indeed, Cersei is planning to betray them and apparently does launch an attack that causes damage to the Stark-Targaryen cause, so being worried about her is in-universe the intelligent thing to do.

That's not her reasoning, though. She's not concerned about Cersei attacking them, she's concerned about Cersei moving in while she moves her forces North. She says this is her dialogue. If Dany was really worried about Cersei, she wouldn't be meeting with her and attempting to make deals with her. She also gave away information to Cersei that one of her dragons had died. So now Cersei knows the dragons are vulnerable. Meeting with her at all - then trusting her word - was frankly not very intelligent. Cersei would have attacked them regardless of the ceasefire.

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

The Jon/Ygritte relationship in the books is basically a male version of a bodice ripper, a romance novel genre that has a lot of influence on GRRM's writing, and in the show the questionable elements are even more downplayed.  Jon's feelings for Ygritte were genuine, as is undeniable from his POV.

My point was, Ygritte initiated. And even in the show, he was still in a situation where he couldn't say no because it would blow his cover if he didn't. But Jon suddenly initiates sex with a woman out of nowhere, under the premise that he has no problems risking a bastard now? It makes no sense.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[WearyTraveler]

13 hours ago, dragonsbite said:

oh thank god. y'all have stopped arguing about Sansa.

 

[Eyes High]

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

The Jon/Ygritte relationship in the books is basically a male version of a bodice ripper, a romance novel genre that has a lot of influence on GRRM's writing

Dany/Drogo also seems ripped from the pages of a very specific type of romance novel--a virginal white princess is sold into marriage to hot barbarian desert chieftain who rapes her until she falls in love with him--that I don't think gets written anymore, for obvious reasons.

I fear that when GRRM does get around to writing Jon/Dany, it's going to be just as cringeworthy as Jon/Ygritte and Dany/Drogo. One thing I will say about D&D's writing is that they do a much better job writing decently healthy, respectful, consensual romantic relationships than GRRM, and I think it's because GRRM's ideas of fictional romance seem to have been informed by old romance novels. So as questionable as the writing for Jon and Dany's romance in S7 may otherwise have been, at least it's clear that it's genuinely respectful and consensual.

[nikma]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

. One thing I will say about D&D's writing is that they do a much better job writing decently healthy, respectful, consensual romantic relationships than GRRM

To be honest, I think that's because they had more experience in that area than him in real life.

[Eyes High]

52 minutes ago, nikma said:

To be honest, I think that's because they had more experience in that area than him in real life.

Naming one of the most loathsome characters in ASOIAF after an ex-girlfriend (and making that same character auburn haired like his ex-wife) and giving her a humiliating death at the hands of a character who has callously manipulated her into loving him doesn't seem like the healthiest thing to do, no. 

Quote

S8 needs to come out now, please.

I think we can all agree on this.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

32 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

1 hour ago, nikma said:

 

Naming one of the most loathsome characters in ASOIAF after an ex-girlfriend (and making that same character auburn haired like his ex-wife) and giving her a humiliating death at the hands of a character who has callously

Umm. ......I'm not sure I understand... Lysa?

Edited August 1, 2018 by nikma

[Eyes High]

9 minutes ago, nikma said:

Umm. ......I'm not sure I understand... Lysa?

Lisa Tuttle (Lysa Tully). 

[cambridgeguy]

10 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I think the reverse. I think bending the knee was strategically his best option because she was not committed by that point. And he was half right - she was shown later to be indecisive and apparently invested in the waste-of-time ceasefire. What I have a problem with is his apparently naive belief that his people will be in awe of her. What should have impressed him more is that his uncle he thought was dead came out of nowhere to save his life. Jon knows that him bending the knee to her will also piss them off, and yet he tells her they'll just get over it? So it's the dumb naivety I have a problem with - that he thinks his people will come to love this Targaryen as their new overlord.

That's the Jon/Ned/Robb way, though.  Ironically his stupid decision to capture a wight now means the Wall has been breached and there is no time for anyone in the North to worry about that.  Of course Jon didn't know that when he bent the knee but then again he was bailed out of his other dubious decision (let's attack Ramsey even though we're outnumbered and outgunned) by something he knew nothing about so it's consistent.

[Colorful Mess]

Cersei attacking the North - can someone recap the leak for that?

[Colorful Mess]

19 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

That's the Jon/Ned/Robb way, though. 

I guess. But each season they show him learning from his past mistakes, at least in some small way. Moreover, they included scenes to illustrate that he's at least partially woke to the "way":

• Jon: "I'm a Northern fool" - most idiots don't declare that they're an idiot.
• Jon: "My father was the most honorable man I’ve ever met, he was good all the way through, and he died on the executioners block." - he knows that acting honorable will get him killed
• Jon: bend the knee - so he learns from Mance but he doesn't learn from his own brother?

Sansa: "You have to be smarter than father, you have to be smarter than Robb." So in conclusion, he's just...not?

To account for these contradictions and actually achieve some character growth, I'd rather him be immoral and pragmatic than stupid and naive.

I do think that him refusing to make a deal with Cersei was a smart move.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[nikma]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Lisa Tuttle (Lysa Tully). 

So why did GRRM wrote her?

[SeanC]

Mark Gatiss confirmed he’s not in Season 8, so you can officially discount any supposed leaks that feature Tycho.

[Eyes High]

39 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Mark Gatiss confirmed he’s not in Season 8, so you can officially discount any supposed leaks that feature Tycho.

Tobias Menzies claimed he hadn't heard anything about Season 8 and was later spotted on the flight returning from Seville, so I think some skepticism is warranted here.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Eyes High

[bubble sparkly]

I swear we heard something about that Gatiss guy filming really early on didn't we?  From WOTW or one of those websites that appears to have some kind of "in" with production and is usually quite reliable?  As such, I think every leak so far has made sure to include a reference to Cercei or Euron having another discussion with the Iron Bank.  Or am I getting this guy mixed up with someone else, or s7 mixed up with s8 lol?

[SimoneS]

29 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Tobias Menzies claimed he hadn't heard anything about Season 8 and was later spotted on the flight returning from Seville, so I think some skepticism is warranted here.

Again, I am confident that it was not Toby Menzies in that photo with the cast returning from Seville.

[Happy Harpy]

It would mean that the Iron Bank had no other role but allowing Cersei to hire the GC.

I found the scenes between Cersei and Tycho to be on the tedious side so I'm not going to miss him, but I find it surprising. The Iron Bank was always there, just beneath the surface. Its sinister reputation was mentioned, and we didn't get to see the sinister yet. I had the feeling it was a set-up to play a major role, probably in Cersei's fall. I guess not, then!

I do miss the great PR BS detector a.k.a. true leaks, we had before S7...

Edited August 2, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[nikma]

His scene with Cersei in E3 was one of the best in S7 IMO. I wanted to see more :(

[bubble sparkly]

One reason I would have thought we might see Tycho again was solely so Cersei can have someone else to talk to.  With Jaime gone she's left with only Pycelle as her constant companion, which seems a tad boring.  I guess Euron could turn up at some point demanding a wedding and whatnot, and perhaps Cercei will have a scene with someone from the GC?  Or maybe Cersei really does end up with someone as a prisoner after the Winterfell battle and that poor sucker will have to listen to her monologuing all damn day?

[nikma]

Pycelle is dead lol

[bubble sparkly]

Oh yeah sorry, Qyburn.  All those grizzly, creepy old white guys kind of bleed together lol!