Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Eyes High]

34 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I am definitely on edge. Any bit of news that suggests Dany and/or Jon's death can set me off. I am trying so hard to hold onto that outline because there is a part of me that doesn't think that Martin really changed anything about who survives, but it is difficult.

I’m inclined to think that the original five all survive, but I’m not confident either way.

26 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Sorry, what I meant was: We know that there are battles, but we don't know exactly who and where the characters are fighting on the show. So every storyline, including the general outline, is kept tightly under wraps and not only Dany's and Sansa's.

The timing of the Jon/Dany are doomed theories is extremely interesting. And it's why I won't buy those but with rock-solid evidence.

I’d say we now have a decent idea of the shape of the season, even if the details are fuzzy. I did a rough outline a few pages back, and that was before all the Seville stuff came out. 

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Can you elaborate please? Why is the timing interesting ? 

In part, because the filming in Seville coincided with Emilia's promo in Cannes whereas D&D knew from experience that filming in Spain would be scrutinized and people would expect to see the final survivors. Cheaper way to mud the waters than filming multiple endings. The other part would be fandom talk.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I’d say we now have a decent idea of the shape of the season, even if the details are fuzzy. I did a rough outline a few pages back, and that was before all the Seville stuff came out. 

We know there's a battle in Winterfell. We know there's a battle in KL. There are some actors spotting (and some didn't film) and some pictures, without context. We can speculate about those bits and pieces, but true verified facts about the plot itself are scarce.

Example: Footage of a Red Priestress (Melisandre? no face in the picture IIRC) fighting the AoTD (verified by the actors' garbs). Those are facts. Why and how she's there, how it'll happen, how it'll end, who's fighting with her, etc. everything else is speculation. Some are logical deductions, some are probable, but they are not facts.

BTW, I remembered this article:

http://tvline.com/2018/05/17/game-of-thrones-series-finale-multiple-endings-season-8-emilia-clarke-interview/

which is mostly excerpts from this one, from may 16th:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/race/awards-chatter-podcast-emilia-clarke-game-thrones-solo-a-star-wars-story-1111352

Emilia claims she doesn't know the ending despite reading the script. She suspects they're changing stuff and she doesn't know what's truly going on. I personally believe she knows how it ends and multiple endings filmed is BS, but it shows that it's all PR and actors are going to say anything and everything...but what truly counts, imho.

Her perspective on Dany sounds much more positive in this one, btw.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Eyes High]

9 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

In part, because the filming in Seville coincided with Emilia's promo in Cannes whereas D&D knew from experience that filming in Spain would be scrutinized and people would expect to see the final survivors. Cheaper way to mud the waters than filming multiple endings. The other part would be fandom talk.

 

It's funny that so many seem to have zeroed in on Emilia Clarke's absence while ignoring that Kit either barely filmed or didn't film at all in Spain, either. If Dany's absence from day scenes filmed in Seville means that she's dead, then Jon's absence from Seville day scenes means the same thing.

Quote

We know there's a battle in Winterfell. We know there's a battle in KL. There are some actors spotting (and some didn't film) and some pictures, without context. We can speculate about those bits and pieces, but true verified facts about the plot itself are scarce.

No, I think there are plenty of true verified facts, it's just that the lack of comprehensive S8 spoilers has led them to be downplayed or overlooked. I don't think anyone would be complaining about the dearth of spoilers were it not for Lads' S7 leak dump.

Quote

Emilia claims she doesn't know the ending despite reading the script. She suspects they're changing stuff and she doesn't know what's truly going on. I personally believe she knows how it ends and multiple endings filmed is BS

The multiple endings claim is total bullshit in my opinion. 

My difficulty with Jon and Dany surviving is that I don't see any realistic outcome in which they would survive to the end and not end up on the Iron Throne. Multiple cast members have implied that the ending is not going to be straightforward or predictable and may even be divisive or unpopular (Joe Dempsie saying that the ending was one that the audience would like "on reflection"), which suggests that it's not going to be a simple Targ restoration ending.

Sophie, Maisie, Liam, and Peter have all been spotted in Belfast since Seville filming ended, so I'm guessing whatever Sophie was tweeting about on May 15th, it had nothing to do with it being the last day of filming for any of them.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Eyes High

[WearyTraveler]

25 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Joe Dempsie saying that the ending was one that the audience would like "on reflection"

Or maybe Dempsie has read a lot of comments from the people who think a Targ restoration is predictable and that they will be disappointed if Jon and Dany end up ruling together.  Context and the previous experiences of the speaker are important.  Not to mention, they are all probably told what to say to tease the audience and create suspense, which is one of the oldest PR rules in existence.

This is why I personally don't take anything the actors say too seriously.  I'm sure we'll hear "heartbreaking" and "bittersweet" about a million more times before S8 even begins.

[nikma]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

No, I think there are plenty of true verified facts,

For example? 

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sophie, Maisie, Liam, and Peter have all been spotted in Belfast since Seville filming ended, so I'm guessing whatever Sophie was tweeting about on May 15th, it had nothing to do with it being the last day of filming for any of them.

 

So it wasn't their last day filming together. She might have been referring to "what" they filmed? What was the fan talk about them looking sad about? Projection?

 

Quote

"It fucked me up. Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavour in someone's mouth of what Daenerys is..."

I was reading comments on WOTW and some of them interpret Emilia's comment as being about her emotions about filming Daenerys' last scene. I think that they are onto something after seeing her other comments and her GMA interview this morning.

Edited May 24, 2018 by SimoneS

[SeanC]

26 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

So it wasn't their last day filming together. She might have been referring to "what" they filmed? What was the fan talk about them looking sad about? Projection?

If, as many guess, they were filming epilogue material, it may be that she filmed Sansa’s last scene, even if it’s not Sophie’s last scene of the production schedule.  That would be emotional, I’d imagine.

[GrailKing]

28 minutes ago, SeanC said:

If, as many guess, they were filming epilogue material, it may be that she filmed Sansa’s last scene, even if it’s not Sophie’s last scene of the production schedule.  That would be emotional, I’d imagine.

Maybe Danery's is the unintentional death of Sansa?

As rumors fly that Sansa does die. 

[Eyes High]

33 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I was reading comments on WOTW and some of them interpret Emilia's comment as being about her emotions about filming Daenerys' last scene. I think that they are onto something after seeing her other comments and her GMA interview this morning.

I agree. 

4 minutes ago, SeanC said:

If, as many guess, they were filming epilogue material, it may be that she filmed Sansa’s last scene, even if it’s not Sophie’s last scene of the production schedule.  That would be emotional, I’d imagine.

The Seville day shoots were denouement scenes, pass it on.

Sophie could probably get away with tweeting about a “sad day” if it’s sad for Sophie (being Sansa’s last scene of the series), not Sansa as a character. And if Sansa makes it to the epilogue along with Bran, Arya and (possibly) Jon, there’s probably not much that’s sad about it for Sansa, except for Winterfell being totalled I guess. 

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I agree. 

The Seville day shoots were denouement scenes, pass it on.

Sophie could probably get away with tweeting about a “sad day” if it’s sad for Sophie (being Sansa’s last scene of the series), not Sansa as a character. And if Sansa makes it to the epilogue along with Bran, Arya and (possibly) Jon, there’s probably not much that’s sad about it for Sansa, except for Winterfell being totalled I guess. 

But with rumors ( true or not, or unknown )lets say Sansa, Brienne etc. are trapped at the pit and Danny tries a rescue with Drogon there could be collateral damage and Sansa could be one, and both Sophie's and Emilia's words could coincide.

As a Sansa fan, and on the fence about Dany, multiply me by a few thousand; I think it could leave a bitter pill about her, for Sansa fans, for Stark fans.

[SimoneS]

26 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The Seville day shoots were denouement scenes, pass it on.

For some characters, not all I think.

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

As rumors fly that Sansa does die. 

Rumors always fly that Sansa dies. Just like Dany, lately.

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

My difficulty with Jon and Dany surviving is that I don't see any realistic outcome in which they would survive to the end and not end up on the Iron Throne.

Leaving for some place warm and peaceful, like Jon wanted to do when he (technically) left the Watch, seems like a realistic outcome to me.

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

So it wasn't their last day filming together. She might have been referring to "what" they filmed? What was the fan talk about them looking sad about? Projection?

 

I was reading comments on WOTW and some of them interpret Emilia's comment as being about her emotions about filming Daenerys' last scene. I think that they are onto something after seeing her other comments and her GMA interview this morning.

Well....put all the comments together: 

Emilia:

Clarke revealed to Vanity Fair that she's already filmed her final Game Of Thrones scene. “It f*cked me up,” she said of her last moment on the show, in no way revealing whether she makes it all the way to the Season 8 finale or not. “Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavor in someone’s mouth of what Daenerys is ...." And with that she trailed off, unable to say anything more

---------

Emilia:

But she did talk about the out-of-body experience she had after reading the season 8 scripts. 

 Okay, so I read the scripts this season, and I…in some kind of a daze walked out of my house. The only thing I took was my keys, and about three hours later I arrived back home, and I still hadn’t taken it all in.

-------

Joe Dempsie:

“I’m sure David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] don’t pay too much attention to people’s theories and speculation there is all over the internet, but it would be a bit of an anti-climax if a well popularised theory turned out to be the way it ended. There’s many pitfalls and I think they really have achieved that with this. It’s an ending I don’t think many people will be expecting and I think, on reflection, people will really, really enjoy.”

------

Maisie Williams:

In a recent interview, the English actress said that the ending of the series finale will surprise fans as it won't end the way everyone expects it to be. "The ending is gonna surprise people, but it's just different to what you think it's gonna be," she told The Times UK.

 

-----

Maisie Williams:

Before she read the Thrones scripts, she and her mother “cracked open a bottle of wine and made predictions about how it was going to end. And neither of us was right.”

Was either of them close? “No. I don’t know if it’s gonna surprise people, but it’s just different to what you think it’s gonna be.” Word is that HBO is thinking of making each episode in the last season feature-length. That would be “amazing”, Williams says. “Milk it for all it’s worth, why don’t you!”

[SeanC]

20 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Leaving for some place warm and peaceful, like Jon wanted to do when he (technically) left the Watch, seems like a realistic outcome to me.

I don’t think that’s a realistic outcome for either of them.

[Eyes High]

39 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Rumors always fly that Sansa dies. Just like Dany, lately.

Leaving for some place warm and peaceful, like Jon wanted to do when he (technically) left the Watch, seems like a realistic outcome to me.

Realistic in the sense of the storyline and their characters. They're just going to ditch their friends and families, abandon thousands devoted to them who will only follow them (Unsullied, Dothraki, wildlings, etc.), leave Westeros in shambles, let millions of starving smallfolk figure it out for themselves, and find a beach house with a red door somewhere? It's possible, of course, but does it seem realistic? Not to me.

35 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Well....put all the comments together: 

Emilia:

Clarke revealed to Vanity Fair that she's already filmed her final Game Of Thrones scene. “It f*cked me up,” she said of her last moment on the show, in no way revealing whether she makes it all the way to the Season 8 finale or not. “Knowing that is going to be a lasting flavor in someone’s mouth of what Daenerys is ...." And with that she trailed off, unable to say anything more

---------

Emilia:

But she did talk about the out-of-body experience she had after reading the season 8 scripts. 

 Okay, so I read the scripts this season, and I…in some kind of a daze walked out of my house. The only thing I took was my keys, and about three hours later I arrived back home, and I still hadn’t taken it all in.

-------

Joe Dempsie:

“I’m sure David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] don’t pay too much attention to people’s theories and speculation there is all over the internet, but it would be a bit of an anti-climax if a well popularised theory turned out to be the way it ended. There’s many pitfalls and I think they really have achieved that with this. It’s an ending I don’t think many people will be expecting and I think, on reflection, people will really, really enjoy.”

------

Maisie Williams:

In a recent interview, the English actress said that the ending of the series finale will surprise fans as it won't end the way everyone expects it to be. "The ending is gonna surprise people, but it's just different to what you think it's gonna be," she told The Times UK.

 

-----

Maisie Williams:

Before she read the Thrones scripts, she and her mother “cracked open a bottle of wine and made predictions about how it was going to end. And neither of us was right.”

Was either of them close? “No. I don’t know if it’s gonna surprise people, but it’s just different to what you think it’s gonna be.” Word is that HBO is thinking of making each episode in the last season feature-length. That would be “amazing”, Williams says. “Milk it for all it’s worth, why don’t you!”

Yeah, it doesn't exactly scream Targ restoration.

If the only realistic options for Jon and Dany's storylines are "Iron Throne or death," these quotes seem to be pointing to the "or death" outcome.

...For my part, as much as a Jon/Dany/Iron Throne ending would be predictable, I have trouble seeing any other outcome--Westeros dissolves into respective kingdoms, Gendry gets the throne, etc.--as satisfying. The only ones who have been set up as any kind of endgame ruler material are Jon and Dany (even with all the questions D&D keep raising about Dany's judgment). Take them out of the picture, and anyone else doesn't even register, I think.

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

But with rumors ( true or not, or unknown )lets say Sansa, Brienne etc. are trapped at the pit and Danny tries a rescue with Drogon there could be collateral damage and Sansa could be one, and both Sophie's and Emilia's words could coincide.

As a Sansa fan, and on the fence about Dany, multiply me by a few thousand; I think it could leave a bitter pill about her, for Sansa fans, for Stark fans.

Sansa getting accidentally burned to a crisp by Drogon in a botched rescue attempt would certainly make for some lively fan discussions, but that outcome seems very unlikely to me. I could see D&D giving Robin a pathetic, comical death, but Sansa? Nah.

I doubt very much that Sophie would tweet about what a sad day she had during filming unless nothing sad actually happened to Sansa in whatever scene she was filming. Whatever is making Sophie emotional, it probably has nothing to do with Sansa or any other character's fortunes in the particular scene in question. And again, if the scenes filmed were epilogue scenes with Arya and Bran, Sansa probably doesn't have very much to be sad about.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Eyes High

[Eyes High]

I went back and I looked through that WOTW post from a while back about the bit parts and saw this:

Quote

The first of these is a strong soldier, for a male actor aged 30-40. The production is looking for a “physically intense performance from a strapping squaddie type.” An imposing presence and actual combat skills are specifically required, so this soldier is not the typical random guard; he’ll be involved in an action scene. Rehearsals begin on April 30 and the shoot will take place in Belfast on the week commencing on May 23.

Then there’s a young village girl who will play a rather typical part in Game of Thrones. Stop me if you’ve heard this before: the girl will be attacked by a man in a physically intense scene for which the actress, aged 18-25, will have to go naked above-the-waist. Though the aforementioned soldier doesn’t sound like this villager’s attacker, their rehearsal and shooting dates are exactly the same, so they must share their one scene.

We know from sightings and such that Kit, Liam, Maisie, and possibly Peter are in Belfast this week. (Peter was last seen on Sunday, but usually actors are gone by Sunday if they aren't filming the following week.) Indeed, it seems like there will be a few Jon/Davos/Arya scenes in KL. Could Jon, Davos, and Arya be involved in this scene?

Sophie was spotted in London yesterday, so she probably isn't involved. London's a quick hop from Belfast, but I think one of her IG stories a few days ago indicated she was in London.

Here are the late-season KL scenes so far, not in order:

1. Jon/Cersei

2. Jon/Davos/Arya

3. Davos/Tyrion/others (rumoured night scene)

4. Jon/Grey Worm/Unsullied at the dragonpit

5. Jaime/Brienne fighting

6. Mel on a horse

7. Arya, Jon, Dany, Jaime, Brienne, Mel, Bran and the NK involved in a big battle vs. the AOTD

8. Tyrion/Sansa/Brienne/Robin/others (?) at the dragonpit

9. Arya/Sam/Gendry/Davos/others (?) at the dragonpit

10. Village girl attempted rape scene

11. Clean-shaven grieving man scene (to be shot in June)

12. Mother and child scene (to be shot in June)

We can say with some confidence that #1 happens first, but everything else is a big question mark.

Given that Emilia has been MIA for most of the KL exterior shoots (and will be for the next little while), I'm guessing Dany will be riding Drogon and/or in labour for most of this. I kind of love the idea of a very pregnant Dany riding Drogon into battle, not gonna lie.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Eyes High

[Wouter]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I doubt very much that Sophie would tweet about what a sad day she had during filming unless nothing sad actually happened to Sansa in whatever scene she was filming. Whatever is making Sophie emotional, it probably has nothing to do with Sansa or any other character's fortunes in the particular scene in question. And again, if the scenes filmed were epilogue scenes with Arya and Bran, Sansa probably doesn't have very much to be sad about.

Last year before the spoiler flood of Awayforthelads came, Sophie and Maisie had indicated they had filmed a highly emotional scene together. This was also taken as a sign that Sansa would die, but as we saw during the season, it was about their reunion and/or LF's execution (and aftermath).

[GraceK]

I wish they would at least give us a release date. 

[screamin]

On 5/23/2018 at 8:58 PM, GraceK said:

I feel you sister. I am in the exact same boat, especially when it comes to down to Danys baby having to die. Like really? That just HAS to happen? Dany or Jon won’t be horrible enough, but let’s kill the baby too? What’s bittersweet about that?All these endings just sound horrific and sad to me!! So yes, I’m definitely on edge! ?

I can't really see the baby being the sacrifice in any possible iteration. Not only is such a thing impossible to call 'bittersweet', it doesn't fit in with the legend as we know it. Nissa Nissa pretty clearly gives up her life knowingly and willingly for the ultimate good as a cooperative effort with her husband. A baby cannot.

Not to mention in more prosaic logistics, I doubt there's going to be enough time with the Wall breaking and the NK charging south for Dany to incubate a baby for nine months, or even the minimum required seven. I expect she'll still be pregnant for whatever sacrifice goes down, and that the birth of the baby will be part of the bittersweet ending to compensate in part for whoever will have been lost.

[GrailKing]

8 hours ago, GraceK said:

I wish they would at least give us a release date. 

I think we should have a pool ( for fun ) with our own guesses.
My guess ~February 16 ( or after super bowl ) ends ~ March 17 2019( spring equinox )or there about  

[WearyTraveler]

When it comes to this whole Nissa Nissa businesss, I think people are confusing prophecy with lore / history, which are not the same in the books.

There are many little stories that we learn about Westeros throughout the books, some seem to be more historically based than others.  For example, when we read about Baelor the Blessed going on a religious fast and how he was such a godly man that the snakes refused to bite him versus Nan telling Bran the story of the 'prentice boys and the guy with the ax coming in the dead of night.  The first is based on a true historical figure (and later we hear from Oberyn, IRRC, say that it wasn't entirely true), the second is framed as a tale told to children like we have the Grimm brothers.

That said, there's a strong sense throughout the books that some of the lore we read a bout is more historically accurate than the people of Westeros believe (the WW come to mind), but in no way do the books imply that because these stories and lore happened in the past, they must happen again in the present or in the future.  Lore serves two functions in the books, as a cautionary tale, and as way to provide justification for a particular rule/belief of the current times.  A great example of this is the story of the Rat Cook, it is used as a tale to scare children and as a way to instill in people the importance of respecting guest rights.  But no one is expecting the Rat Cook to be born again, no one is expecting to see a giant rat around the Night Fort eating its children, and so on.  Frey Pie is a satisfying story point, but Manderly wasn't fulfilling any prophecy, he just used lore as inspiration and to get rid of evidence.

Prophecies are things that haven't happened yet in Westeros, and that some characters say will happen at some point in the future.  The Prince that Was Promised / the rebirth of Azor Ahai, Sansa slaying a giant in a castle made of snow, and Cersei's children having golden hair and golden shrouds, are prophecies.  Some have come to pass already, and some have yet to happen.  And there are indications that we may be right in the middle of a prophecy becoming true.  Cersei having three golden haired children was a prophecy made by Maggy the Frog which came true, Sansa slaying a giant hasn't happened (in the books, at least), and we seem to be in the middle of the Long Night prophecy coming true with the White Walkers rising and moving south; but we still don't know who is Azor Ahai reborn.

To me, the Nissa Nissa story is the past, it explains how Azor Ahai's sword was forged and why it is special, but it does not imply that this sword needs to be forged again.  People need to be born again, swords don't.  The second coming of Azor Ahai is a prophecy, the forging of Lightbringer is lore/history.  Note that the lore about Azor Ahai doesn't say that he was born out of fire the first time, he was just a regular man who forged a great sword to fight the Others and became a hero when he defeated them.  The prophecy says he will be born again when the WW rise again, this time out of fire, and he will end the Long Night.  So, there's a difference between the history (how things came to be) vs. the prophecy (how things will be sometime in the future).

Should the prophecy say that AA needs to forge a sword again, we would have heard about it by now.  We read about AA and TPTWP several times from several characters, we only read about the Nissa Nissa story once.  If the forging of the sword were important, we would have read about AA having to do it again.  Instead, we read about how Lightbringer is supposed to look like and how it's supposed to act, because the character that has the sword is supposed to be AA.  It's Westeros' equivalent to a DNA test.  This is why Maester Aemon asks so many questions about Stannis' sword and how he figures out that Stannis is a fake (the sword emits light but not heat). 

What the prophecy says is: 

"It has been foretold in the books at Asshai that when the stars bleed and the cold winds blow, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. That sword will be Lightbringer. The one who draws it will be Azor Ahai reborn."

So, all AA reborn needs to do, is pull a sword out of a stone pyre.  He doesn't need to temper it again.

Edited May 25, 2018 by WearyTraveler

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I think we should have a pool ( for fun ) with our own guesses.
My guess ~February 16 ( or after super bowl ) ends ~ March 17 2019( spring equinox )or there about  

I seem to recall someone in the know (cast or crew, I guess?) recently indicating the show wouldn't return before April. 

I expect the premiere date won't be too close to June, though, because they need to air enough episodes to qualify for the Emmys. They're not going to miss two awards seasons in a row if they can possibly avoid it.

When it comes to the filming schedule, it occurs to me that it's possible that Sansa doesn't come south with everyone else--Jon, Dany, Davos, Tyrion, Arya, Jaime and Brienne, that we know of--at all. Sophie has been absent from these KL exterior scenes, and the only KL stuff she has filmed is in Seville. Maybe she stays behind at Winterfell to rebuild, assuming it isn't overrun by wights, and only shows up at KL for the epilogue. /BoatsexBaby suggested that Bran may be "present" in the Seville scenes filmed through astral projection (which he has only previously used for traveling to the past). If so, his corporeal form has to be somewhere, and someone has to be taking care of it. Maybe Sansa and Bran are at Winterfell while all the shit is going down in KL. I guess it depends whether or not Winterfell is rendered uninhabitable by the battle that takes place there.

...On the other hand, it seems unlikely that Brienne would leave Sansa undefended at Winterfell. On the other other hand, Sansa has sent Brienne away before. So it's possible.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I seem to recall someone in the know (cast or crew, I guess?) recently indicating the show wouldn't return before April. 

I expect the premiere date won't be too close to June, though, because they need to air enough episodes to qualify for the Emmys. They're not going to miss two awards seasons in a row if they can possibly avoid it.

When it comes to the filming schedule, it occurs to me that it's possible that Sansa doesn't come south with everyone else--Jon, Dany, Davos, Tyrion, Arya, Jaime and Brienne, that we know of--at all. Sophie has been absent from these KL exterior scenes, and the only KL stuff she has filmed is in Seville. Maybe she stays behind at Winterfell to rebuild, assuming it isn't overrun by wights, and only shows up at KL for the epilogue. /BoatsexBaby suggested that Bran may be "present" in the Seville scenes filmed through astral projection (which he has only previously used for traveling to the past). If so, his corporeal form has to be somewhere, and someone has to be taking care of it. Maybe Sansa and Bran are at Winterfell while all the shit is going down in KL. I guess it depends whether or not Winterfell is rendered uninhabitable by the battle that takes place there.

...On the other hand, it seems unlikely that Brienne would leave Sansa undefended at Winterfell. On the other other hand, Sansa has sent Brienne away before. So it's possible.

 

WRG to Sansa, possible, but would Jon let her truly stay in a highly damaged fort, in the middle of winter?

As far as start date, I didn't see, about the start date; people can have a go with it as they like.

1 more year is soooooo longggggggg.

ETA: I couldn't spell truly correctly. : (

Edited May 25, 2018 by GrailKing

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

When it comes to the filming schedule, it occurs to me that it's possible that Sansa doesn't come south with everyone else--Jon, Dany, Davos, Tyrion, Arya, Jaime and Brienne, that we know of--at all. Sophie has been absent from these KL exterior scenes, and the only KL stuff she has filmed is in Seville. Maybe she stays behind at Winterfell to rebuild, assuming it isn't overrun by wights, and only shows up at KL for the epilogue. /BoatsexBaby suggested that Bran may be "present" in the Seville scenes filmed through astral projection (which he has only previously used for traveling to the past). If so, his corporeal form has to be somewhere, and someone has to be taking care of it. Maybe Sansa and Bran are at Winterfell while all the shit is going down in KL. I guess it depends whether or not Winterfell is rendered uninhabitable by the battle that takes place there.

...On the other hand, it seems unlikely that Brienne would leave Sansa undefended at Winterfell. On the other other hand, Sansa has sent Brienne away before. So it's possible.

The Wildlings wanted to pass the Wall because the AotD takes no prisoners, right? If the wights go as far as KL, I don't think that any life is possible. No one seemed to survive up North but in the 3ER cave and I don't see any rebuilding taking place before the war is over. If Sansa stayed North it would be in a grave, imo. I did think of Bran staying, he's the character I can't picture out of there, I thought maybe the crypt of Winterfell could become another magical cave etc. but it seemed quite farfetched to me in the end. I don't think he has enough powers yet to protect several people or survive alone.

[SeanC]

13 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

The Wildlings wanted to pass the Wall because the AotD takes no prisoners, right? If the wights go as far as KL, I don't think that any life is possible. 

That would depend on what exactly happens at Winterfell.  If the Night King is driven off and heads south to raise more wights, for instance, then the castle would remain garrisoned.

[Eyes High]

10 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I did think of Bran staying, he's the character I can't picture out of there, I thought maybe the crypt of Winterfell could become another magical cave etc. but it seemed quite farfetched to me in the end. I don't think he has enough powers yet to protect several people or survive alone.

I don't know if /BoatsexBaby's talk of Bran being present in KL in astral form is idle speculation or based on information from her source, but /BoatsexBaby did say that Bran was one of the characters she knows is involved in the KL battle, and Bran's not going to be much use in a battle unless he is using his powers, so...

Someone asked upthread about the basis for the theory that Sophie filmed in Croatia along with Kit and Lena. This is what dirty_diana05 at /Freefolk said:

Quote

 I'm fairly certain that Sophie was the 3rd cast member. I'm one of those who follow her closely (lol god that sounds really creepy) and her not attending her "Josie" premiere around the same time as Croatia filming, plus not being with her fiance during that time (Joe Jonas has confirmed she has not come to visit him in Australia, the times he's been down under, because she's been working on GOT) and plus the fact someone actually claims to have seen her there all adds up to her actually being there.

[SeanC]

I wondered the same thing about the Josie premiere, since she would normally be contractually obligated to show up for that, barring a superseding (i.e., earlier) contractual obligation.

[Edith]

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/news/local/exclusive-game-of-thrones-stars-kit-harington-and-rose-leslie-set-date-for-north-east-wedding/

Kit is getting married on June 23. He said he would get married when the show was over. That gives us three options:

1. He will continue filming after the wedding 

2. GOT filming ends sooner that we thought 

3. He wraps filming earlier. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Edith

[SeanC]

The wedding should be a big cast gathering.

[Eyes High]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

The wedding should be a big cast gathering.

Will it? Rose and Emilia are friends, but I don’t know how close Kit is to the rest of the cast.

The cast usually takes off on the weekends, anyway, so the wedding won’t throw too great a wrench into filming.

[SeanC]

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Will it? Rose and Emilia are friends, but I don’t know how close Kit is to the rest of the cast.

He’s talked about wanting to invite a lot of them in the past, if I recall correctly.

[Cujoy]

Emilia, Maisie and Sophie will almost certainly be at the wedding.  I expect D&D will be there and many others including former cast members.  If everyone comes they're going to need a huge wedding venue.  LOL

[WindyNights]

9 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

When it comes to this whole Nissa Nissa businesss, I think people are confusing prophecy with lore / history, which are not the same in the books.

There are many little stories that we learn about Westeros throughout the books, some seem to be more historically based than others.  For example, when we read about Baelor the Blessed going on a religious fast and how he was such a godly man that the snakes refused to bite him versus Nan telling Bran the story of the 'prentice boys and the guy with the ax coming in the dead of night.  The first is based on a true historical figure (and later we hear from Oberyn, IRRC, say that it wasn't entirely true), the second is framed as a tale told to children like we have the Grimm brothers.

That said, there's a strong sense throughout the books that some of the lore we read a bout is more historically accurate than the people of Westeros believe (the WW come to mind), but in no way do the books imply that because these stories and lore happened in the past, they must happen again in the present or in the future.  Lore serves two functions in the books, as a cautionary tale, and as way to provide justification for a particular rule/belief of the current times.  A great example of this is the story of the Rat Cook, it is used as a tale to scare children and as a way to instill in people the importance of respecting guest rights.  But no one is expecting the Rat Cook to be born again, no one is expecting to see a giant rat around the Night Fort eating its children, and so on.  Frey Pie is a satisfying story point, but Manderly wasn't fulfilling any prophecy, he just used lore as inspiration and to get rid of evidence.

Prophecies are things that haven't happened yet in Westeros, and that some characters say will happen at some point in the future.  The Prince that Was Promised / the rebirth of Azor Ahai, Sansa slaying a giant in a castle made of snow, and Cersei's children having golden hair and golden shrouds, are prophecies.  Some have come to pass already, and some have yet to happen.  And there are indications that we may be right in the middle of a prophecy becoming true.  Cersei having three golden haired children was a prophecy made by Maggy the Frog which came true, Sansa slaying a giant hasn't happened (in the books, at least), and we seem to be in the middle of the Long Night prophecy coming true with the White Walkers rising and moving south; but we still don't know who is Azor Ahai reborn.

To me, the Nissa Nissa story is the past, it explains how Azor Ahai's sword was forged and why it is special, but it does not imply that this sword needs to be forged again.  People need to be born again, swords don't.  The second coming of Azor Ahai is a prophecy, the forging of Lightbringer is lore/history.  Note that the lore about Azor Ahai doesn't say that he was born out of fire the first time, he was just a regular man who forged a great sword to fight the Others and became a hero when he defeated them.  The prophecy says he will be born again when the WW rise again, this time out of fire, and he will end the Long Night.  So, there's a difference between the history (how things came to be) vs. the prophecy (how things will be sometime in the future).

Should the prophecy say that AA needs to forge a sword again, we would have heard about it by now.  We read about AA and TPTWP several times from several characters, we only read about the Nissa Nissa story once.  If the forging of the sword were important, we would have read about AA having to do it again.  Instead, we read about how Lightbringer is supposed to look like and how it's supposed to act, because the character that has the sword is supposed to be AA.  It's Westeros' equivalent to a DNA test.  This is why Maester Aemon asks so many questions about Stannis' sword and how he figures out that Stannis is a fake (the sword emits light but not heat). 

What the prophecy says is: 

"It has been foretold in the books at Asshai that when the stars bleed and the cold winds blow, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. That sword will be Lightbringer. The one who draws it will be Azor Ahai reborn."

So, all AA reborn needs to do, is pull a sword out of a stone pyre.  He doesn't need to temper it again.

Here:

You may read it here. It is old and fragile." He studied her, frowning. "Archmaester Rigney once wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again, he said. I think of that whenever I contemplate the Crow's Eye. Euron Greyjoy sounds queerly like Urron Greyiron to these old ears. I shall not go to Old Wyk. Nor should you."

--------

 

One of GRRM's biggest ticks are that people who read are the wisest and the timid, fat man is usually a smart badass putting up a front (Illyrio, Wyman Manderly, Doran, arguably Varys)

[WindyNights]

11 hours ago, screamin said:

I can't really see the baby being the sacrifice in any possible iteration. Not only is such a thing impossible to call 'bittersweet', it doesn't fit in with the legend as we know it. Nissa Nissa pretty clearly gives up her life knowingly and willingly for the ultimate good as a cooperative effort with her husband. A baby cannot.

Not to mention in more prosaic logistics, I doubt there's going to be enough time with the Wall breaking and the NK charging south for Dany to incubate a baby for nine months, or even the minimum required seven. I expect she'll still be pregnant for whatever sacrifice goes down, and that the birth of the baby will be part of the bittersweet ending to compensate in part for whoever will have been lost.

Well if the baby is never born and it's tied to Dany's life then it would die when Daenerys sacrifices herself. I think it's there to partially serve as a temptation for Daenerys to live without sacrificing herself.

"Love is the death of duty."

 

Daenerys is too altruistic to be that selfish and they both die to save Westeros.

[Wouter]

9 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

Should the prophecy say that AA needs to forge a sword again, we would have heard about it by now.  We read about AA and TPTWP several times from several characters, we only read about the Nissa Nissa story once.  If the forging of the sword were important, we would have read about AA having to do it again.  Instead, we read about how Lightbringer is supposed to look like and how it's supposed to act, because the character that has the sword is supposed to be AA.  It's Westeros' equivalent to a DNA test.  This is why Maester Aemon asks so many questions about Stannis' sword and how he figures out that Stannis is a fake (the sword emits light but not heat). 

What the prophecy says is: 

"It has been foretold in the books at Asshai that when the stars bleed and the cold winds blow, a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. That sword will be Lightbringer. The one who draws it will be Azor Ahai reborn."

So, all AA reborn needs to do, is pull a sword out of a stone pyre.  He doesn't need to temper it again.

Interestingly, Jon already did this quite literally (Longclaw being arguably pulled from the fire he started in Mormont's room) and Dany did it figuratively, if we consider her dragons as candidates to be "Lightbringer" as a metaphorical sword, by burning Drogo's pyre. Both of those happened already way back in AGOT and both were shown prominently on the show.

One of the things that are engaging about ASOIAF (and by extension, the show) is that both Dany and Jon can easily be AA and/or the TPTWP by themselves (or together, as the case may be). Martin has not made it easy for the readers (and watchers) to say exactly who the prophecies are referring to.

[Cujoy]

I do not see any satisfying sending to Game of Thrones that involves Dany in any way sacrificing her child.  That isn't "bittersweet".   I do, however, easily see Dany sacrificing her metaphorical children, the dragons.  I also think that if Dany is responsible for burning down KL, even if it is forced upon her by the NK, that is enough reason for Dany to be horrified, and perhaps refuse the throne.  She didn't touch the throne in the burned out throne room during her HotU vision, so it could well be.  I am leaning towards this show ending with neither Jon nor Dany on the throne.  

[WearyTraveler]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Here:

You may read it here. It is old and fragile." He studied her, frowning. "Archmaester Rigney once wrote that history is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again, he said. I think of that whenever I contemplate the Crow's Eye. Euron Greyjoy sounds queerly like Urron Greyiron to these old ears. I shall not go to Old Wyk. Nor should you."

--------

 

One of GRRM's biggest ticks are that people who read are the wisest and the timid, fat man is usually a smart badass putting up a front (Illyrio, Wyman Manderly, Doran, arguably Varys)

Yes, which is why the WW are rising again and Azor Ahai is needed again, but that is not the same as creating a sword again, when the original one already exists.  It's not a new threat that comes from beyond the Wall, it's the same threat returning.  The hero will not be a new hero, it will be the same hero re-born.  The sword will be the same sword, and because swords don't die, it doesn't need to be re-born (or re-forged).  Think of it as the medallion carried by the orphan child that later serves to identify her as the heiress of a gigantic fortune.  The one who pulls the sword out of the fire will be AA, there's no need to temper the sword again. The way this particular story has been written, and the way Nissa Nissa is referenced, and the way the prophecy states what will happen all point to Lightbringer being the object that will identify AA/TPTWP, not that AA/TPTWP will rise, we will know who he is, and then he'll go forge a sword and temper it to create Lightbringer 2.0.  It is known as The Sword of Heroes.  It's a thing, like Dawn is a thing, Longclaw is a thing, Ice was a thing, etc. Only The Sword of Heroes is a bigger thing than all of those other swords.

Plus, how would this even happen in the show where there has been no mention of Nissa Nissa?

It is far more likely that:

1. The show will not deal with any AA/TPTWP stuff. Either Jon or Dany defeat the NK, or they do it together, and us book readers will know who is AA/TPTWP based on who defeats the WW.  We will then extrapolate show events to get an idea of what the story will look like in the books (if they are ever finished), or
2. At some point Longclaw will turn into Lightbringer, shining and radiating heat, and then everyone will know Jon is AA/TPTWP (Mel, Davos, Bran or Sam, will probably referenced that this sword really is Lightbringer and that Stannis sword was cold to the touch, ergo Jon is the one), and book readers that supported this theory will have it confirmed, or
3. Dany defeats the NK using dragon fire and we will know that she is AA/TPTWP and that the Lightbringer of the prophecy was a metaphor. 

I don't see any scenario where the show will go through the forging and tempering of a new Lightbringer, and I don't see it happening in the books either, because this particular point wasn't written that way.

Edited May 25, 2018 by WearyTraveler

[WearyTraveler]

49 minutes ago, Wouter said:

One of the things that are engaging about ASOIAF (and by extension, the show) is that both Dany and Jon can easily be AA and/or the TPTWP by themselves (or together, as the case may be). Martin has not made it easy for the readers (and watchers) to say exactly who the prophecies are referring to.

 

True.  I can see where the evidence has been laid out for it to be either one of them, or both of them together.  This prophesy in particular, though was very specific regarding the family and specific succession line of the family where TPTWP would come from, and Jon and Dany both fit it.  So, it makes less sense to me that the part about the sword is metaphorical and the part about the person is literal.  So I tend to think that both parts will be literal.  Then again TPTWP was the Westeros version and AA is the Essos version.  One could be literal and the other metaphorical.

 

Other prophesies like the ones given by the old woman in the forest are entirely metaphorical, so, there could be hundreds of interpretations.  There is literally no castle made of snow in the books or the show, or at least we haven't seen one, but, castles covered in snow there are a few, so.... 

 

I tend to think Longclaw will be revealed as Lightbringer at some point, since there has been so much time and some many emotional plot points invested in this particular sword.  There has been a lot of focus on what the sword means to Jon, one of the candidates for AA/TPTWP,  My book theory is that the NW will try to burn Jon's body and he will walk out of the fire with Lightbringer, but, we'll see.

Edited May 25, 2018 by WearyTraveler

[Wouter]

16 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I tend to think Longclaw will be revealed as Lightbringer at some point, since there has been so much time and some many emotional plot points invested to this particular sword.  There has been a lot of focus on what the sword means to Jon, one of the candidates for AA/TPTWP,  My book theory is that the NW will try to burn Jon's body and he will walk out of the fire with Lightbringer, but, we'll see.

That was how I imagined it would be, to (assuming Longclaw is indeed the famed Lightbringer). But the show didn't play it that way, so Dany as the other option is still in the running.

Longclaw as a heat-emitting sword would be very handy in a fight against the NK (and/or White Walkers), especially because the heat would help combat the cold that comes with those guys. And Jon did have a dream at some point (in the books) of him holding a glowing red sword, IIRC.

OTOH, fire-breathing dragons would be even more handy weapons against the entire army of the death and they ought to be crucial.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Wouter

[TarotQueen]

There is also a book theory that is much more figurative in that Jon himself is Lightbringer and the Nissa Nissa prophecy was a metaphor for Rhaegar deflowering Lyanna.  Agree with all that we are not likely to get a complete ruling on this in the show although it would be nice to have some hints.

[WearyTraveler]

4 minutes ago, Wouter said:

That was how I imagined it would be, to (assuming Longclaw is indeed the famed Lightbringer). But the show didn't play it that way, so Dany as the other option is still in the running.

Longclaw as a heat-emitting sword would be very handy in a fight against the NW (and/or White Walkers), especially because the heat would help combat the cold that comes with those guys. And Jon did have a dream at some point (in the books) of him holding a glowing red sword, IIRC.

OTOH, fire-breathing dragons would be even more handy weapons against the entire army of the death and they ought to be crucial.

Yes. But (there's always a but... he, he, he!), in the books fire defeats the Wights and dragon glass (a component of Valyrian Steel, magic and steel being the other ones) defeats the WW. In the show, dragon fire defeated the wights, but the NK killed a dragon, so one presumes VS /dragon glass is still needed to defeat the Walkers, ergo, we still need a sword wielding hero (or heroes) with the right weapons to defeat the WW.

Also, the show has had two intense stare downs between Jon and the NK where they were looking directly at each other and sending each other messages with their eyes and postures.  Jon didn't even need to say "I'm gonna kill you!", you just know that's exactly what he is thinking and the NK took notice of Jon when there was a fire-breathing dragon burning wights, being ridden by a beautiful Valyrian looking woman right in front of him.  I think those things are significant, which is why I speculate that in S8 Jon will definitely have a show down with the NK, one-on-one, real personal, and he will kill the NK using his sword, Longclaw, (which other sword would he use?).  Therefore, Jon = AA, and Longclaw =Lightbringer.

Perhaps the scenes Kit filmed in Seville (where he had to practice for some fighting) where for this final showdown.

[Wouter]

2 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

Also, the show has had two intense stare downs between Jon and the NK where they were looking directly at each other and sending each other messages with their eyes and postures.  Jon didn't even need to say "I'm gonna kill you!", you just know that's exactly what he is thinking and the NK took notice of Jon when there was a fire-breathing dragon burning wights, being ridden by a beautiful Valyrian looking woman right in front of him.  I think those things are significant, which is why I speculate that in S8 Jon will definitely have a show down with the NK, one-on-one, real personal, and he will kill the NK using his sword, Longclaw, (which other sword would he use?).  Therefore, Jon = AA, and Longclaw =Lightbringer.

 

A reasonable expectation, IMO. The show really did emphasize Jon vs NK, so the big boss fight between those two would not be unexpected. It could be preceded or coincide with a dragon-on-dragon duel involving Dany (if the former, both dragons could go down with the NK surviving to face Jon).

[TarotQueen]

Yeah there is definitely something distinctly personal about the Night King's response to Jon.  I mean I am sure he ... respects Dany maybe?  For her dragons and the power they represent but it is nowhere on the intensity level as with Jon

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Cujoy said:

I do not see any satisfying sending to Game of Thrones that involves Dany in any way sacrificing her child.  That isn't "bittersweet".   I do, however, easily see Dany sacrificing her metaphorical children, the dragons.  I also think that if Dany is responsible for burning down KL, even if it is forced upon her by the NK, that is enough reason for Dany to be horrified, and perhaps refuse the throne.  She didn't touch the throne in the burned out throne room during her HotU vision, so it could well be.  I am leaning towards this show ending with neither Jon nor Dany on the throne.  

I do think Jon and Dany survive (although I go back and forth on this a lot), but I don't see any realistic ending in which they survive and don't end up on the IT.

For all the cast members hinting otherwise, I wouldn't be surprised if the ending in sum turns out to be a lot more predictable than we expect: Jon/Dany on the Iron Throne, Tyrion at Casterly Rock, Bran and/or Sansa at Winterfell, and Arya off having adventures. 

I doubt Nissa Nissa will have anything to do with Season 8. After the finale everyone will probably be wondering where the hell GRRM is going with that in the books.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Eyes High

[screamin]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Well if the baby is never born and it's tied to Dany's life then it would die when Daenerys sacrifices herself. I think it's there to partially serve as a temptation for Daenerys to live without sacrificing herself.

"Love is the death of duty."

 

Daenerys is too altruistic to be that selfish and they both die to save Westeros.

"Danaerys sacrifices herself" is an "if", not a "when." If Jon is dead when the sacrificial time comes and he's therefore not a viable sacrifice, I can see a pregnant Dany sacrificing herself to save the world - after all, if the world is ending if she doesn't, then refusing to sacrifice herself won't save her baby - they'll all die anyway.

But if Jon is still alive when the time comes to make a sacrifice to save the world - well, the books have specifically set it up so that the "Prince that is Promised" of Targaryen blood from Aerys' line could be either a man or a woman. Both Jon and Dany qualify. So there may be a choice to make between them who shall act as the noble sacrifice to empower the other to be the Azor Ahai/Prince(ss) That Was Promised savior to put an end to the apocalyptic threat.

If Jon and a pregnant Dany face this choice and understand it - I think it's inevitable that BOTH of them would decide that Jon would be the necessary sacrifice to enable Dany and their child to go on living in a saved world. I can't imagine circumstances that would credibly make Jon decide to sacrifice his wife and unborn child and live on instead - and Dany to let him do it if there were an alternative. It would be completely out of character for both of them.

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

"Danaerys sacrifices herself" is an "if", not a "when." If Jon is dead when the sacrificial time comes and he's therefore not a viable sacrifice, I can see a pregnant Dany sacrificing herself to save the world - after all, if the world is ending if she doesn't, then refusing to sacrifice herself won't save her baby - they'll all die anyway.

But if Jon is still alive when the time comes to make a sacrifice to save the world - well, the books have specifically set it up so that the "Prince that is Promised" of Targaryen blood from Aerys' line could be either a man or a woman. Both Jon and Dany qualify. So there may be a choice to make between them who shall act as the noble sacrifice to empower the other to be the Azor Ahai/Prince(ss) That Was Promised savior to put an end to the apocalyptic threat.

If Jon and a pregnant Dany face this choice and understand it - I think it's inevitable that BOTH of them would decide that Jon would be the necessary sacrifice to enable Dany and their child to go on living in a saved world. I can't imagine circumstances that would credibly make Jon decide to sacrifice his wife and unborn child and live on instead - and Dany to let him do it if there were an alternative. It would be completely out of character for both of them.

Daenerys can always run away with her baby back to Meereen. So even if Westeros falls, she still has an out and can come back to save Essos. It dooms Westeros but not the world.

There are hints that Jon is going to outlive all the Starks and past the story to grow into a bitter, old man. There are hints that Daenerys dies.

I don't think there will be any time to have a discussion about it. It's a do or don't moment.

Like just cause I would take a bullet for my daughter doesn't mean I'll be available to take a bullet for my daughter versus my wife who is available to take that bullet.

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, Cujoy said:

I do not see any satisfying sending to Game of Thrones that involves Dany in any way sacrificing her child.  That isn't "bittersweet".   I do, however, easily see Dany sacrificing her metaphorical children, the dragons.  I also think that if Dany is responsible for burning down KL, even if it is forced upon her by the NK, that is enough reason for Dany to be horrified, and perhaps refuse the throne.  She didn't touch the throne in the burned out throne room during her HotU vision, so it could well be.  I am leaning towards this show ending with neither Jon nor Dany on the throne.  

Is Daenerys the only main character? If she were and that was her ending then it would indeed be more bitter than sweet but.....there a bunch of other main characters that could get a sweetish ending. 

Apparently, GRRM referred to Aegon II's ending as being bittersweet and Aegon II won the Dance and killed Rhaenrys but he lost all his children, his dragon, was crippled and then was posioned

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, Cujoy said:

I do not see any satisfying sending to Game of Thrones that involves Dany in any way sacrificing her child.  That isn't "bittersweet".   I do, however, easily see Dany sacrificing her metaphorical children, the dragons.  I also think that if Dany is responsible for burning down KL, even if it is forced upon her by the NK, that is enough reason for Dany to be horrified, and perhaps refuse the throne.  She didn't touch the throne in the burned out throne room during her HotU vision, so it could well be.  I am leaning towards this show ending with neither Jon nor Dany on the throne.  

 

According to GRRM, in writing fantasy, you have to go back to Tolkien and the bittersweet ending of the scouring of the shire. Although when he was younger, he thought that part was extra, the bitterness stayed with him and he realized that it was the point of the story.

--------

GRRM: "Frodo's sadness – that was a bittersweet ending, which to my mind was far more powerful than the ending of Star Wars, where all the happy Ewoks are jumping around, and the ghosts of all the dead people appear, waving happily [laughs]. 

--------

He did draw a distinction between killing a character early on to "establish that you're playing for keeps" (i.e. so that the reader will feel suspense in future dangerous situations) versus killing a character towards the end of an arc towards more of a bittersweet/tragic ending. 

------------

He[GRRM] also disagrees with the vast majority of genre books that have happy endings. He finds that inherently untrue. The moment he said that I flashed to Sansa and her "songs" that never quite come out the way she dreams them. George then related the story that when he was in little league he always knew he would hit a bottom of the ninth homer and win a game despite never having hit a ball during the game. It happened in the movies, why not to him?

The panel then agreed wholeheartedly with his statement that the Scouring of the Shire is evocative, costly, and profound. That ending, and not the one of the fields of Cormallen or the white tower of Minas Tirith is what sets the LotR trilogy apart in its greatness. Esther also pointed out that there are three typical endings - happy, tragic, and bittersweet, with the last being the best kind.

-----

Next morning we were up for a quick bagel and coffee breakfast (there are approximately 700 million coffee places in the Harvard Square area, and I wanted to try as many as possible) and a panel called "All You Need Is Love", about love and sex in fiction. It was okay, though it's not like Martin is a master of romance fiction, y'know? He[GRRM] did say he prefers tragic love stories (a la Romeo and Juliet) which gave me even less hope for Jaime and Brienne.

Edited May 25, 2018 by WindyNights

[screamin]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Daenerys can always run away with her baby back to Meereen. So even if Westeros falls, she still has an out and can come back to save Essos. It dooms Westeros but not the world.

 

That's assuming that what's happening in Westeros doesn't affect the rest of the world at all. I think that's a pretty unwarranted assumption. Magic rises all over the world when the dragons are reborn, not just Westeros. The Children of the Forest speak of magic dying out of the world, not just Westeros. It's the world that suffers years-long summers and winters, not just the continent of Westeros. IIRC, the legends of Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised came from different places and people, but GRRM gives us to understand that it refers to the same person - hence the subject of the legends is presumed to be of great importance to both those separate people and places. IIRC, in Braavos Arya noted that the canals are freezing over and people there are saying it's unusual, and the Dothraki are worried that the Sea of Grass is dying off.  Presumably if the Long Night becomes the Never-ending Night, and the seas freeze over so the NK can walk across it dry-shod, the whole world can't avoid ending. It can't be confined to geographical borders.

[WindyNights]

24 minutes ago, screamin said:

That's assuming that what's happening in Westeros doesn't affect the rest of the world at all. I think that's a pretty unwarranted assumption. Magic rises all over the world when the dragons are reborn, not just Westeros. The Children of the Forest speak of magic dying out of the world, not just Westeros. It's the world that suffers years-long summers and winters, not just the continent of Westeros. IIRC, the legends of Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised came from different places and people, but GRRM gives us to understand that it refers to the same person - hence the subject of the legends is presumed to be of great importance to both those separate people and places. IIRC, in Braavos Arya noted that the canals are freezing over and people there are saying it's unusual, and the Dothraki are worried that the Sea of Grass is dying off.  Presumably if the Long Night becomes the Never-ending Night, and the seas freeze over so the NK can walk across it dry-shod, the whole world can't avoid ending. It can't be confined to geographical borders.

I meant that she could retreat to Meereen to fight another day but sacrifice Westeros in the process