Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[John Potts]

Tyrion going, "The nobles are evil, so kill them all and they'll be paradise!" sounds idiotic. I'd prefer Tyrion killing those executing him out of revenge because at least then it wouldn't be presented as a heroic act. But anyone thinking that killing all the "bad people" will usher in the perfect society should look at the history of the French Revolution. Or the Russian Revolution. Or the Khmer Rouge. Or... well, probably any human revolution. That's not going to be a Bittersweet ending, it'll be yet another bloodbath, where the weak are preyed on by the strong.

(Not saying it won't happen - but it's an awful ending, if it's true).

Edited January 2, 2019 by John Potts
Because "would" and "wouldn't" mean different things!

[Minneapple]

Quote

 

Concerning Jon and Dany:

 

"They are already dead before the dragonpit scene. Tyrion kidnaps pregnant Daenarys but Jon thinks it is Cersei and goes to kings landing to save her. She takes him to the dungeon where Daenarys is chained and then Tyrion walks in and stabs Jon. Daenarys is already bleeding to death and she and Jon die beside each other. Their last scene is a shot of their hands reaching out to each other. It is a very heartbreaking scene."

 

There's a lot to doubt in that "leak," but this may be about the worst. Like, dumbest ending ever.

[Miss Dee]

I'll be honest: while 95% of me assumes this is fake, 5% of me kinda hopes it's not, just so I can snack while watching the ensuing meltdown.

That said: while I can see GRRM ending his series that way after the show has a more conventional ending, I cannot in any way shape or form see him agreeing to end the show like that ahead of his books. It would kill any future sales for not only SoIaF but also all the prequels and offshoots he's creating.

[GraceK]

It sounds like fanfiction written by a bitter Tyrion Stan who is unhappy with the  “Tyrion is executed” leaks and is trolling everyone.  Also, Bronn helps him?  The Bronn who makes his living off the nobles and doesn’t give a shit for the small folk? What’s he going to do in this new glorious future? He still wants his castle last time we checked in with him 😂😂😂😂

Edited January 2, 2019 by GraceK

[WindyNights]

6 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Lol that sounds so fake, I really doubt every main character is going to end up dead.  Also, I cannot fathom how it would be possible for Tyrion to kidnap Dany.  Even if he someone managed to make off with her, she has a telepathic connection with Drogon and could simply get him to dracarys everyone, allowing her to walk free.

Drogon is the big death at Winterfell so Dany's kidnapping happens after that.

 

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

Nonsensical, is the word I’d use.  It’s obviously fake, for a ton of reasons.

To cite just one, it would suggest the entire series is built around an indictment of the main characters that isn’t remotely true.  Indeed, the whole reason Jon is the (arguable) main hero is because he recognized the real threat to Westeros and acted accordingly, but Tyrion kills him because he only cares about power or some nonsense?  Bran?  Arya?

Jon doesn't die in the Dragonpit. He kills Jon out of jealousy before that.

 

his "spoilers" are amusing to read 

Edited January 2, 2019 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

This seems really fake. If we are meant to root for the smallfolk, why not make at least some of them real characters to begin with? 

To be fair, you actually are meant to root for the smallfolk within the books and show. 

Martin does put a lot of emphasis on the people not caring who sits the throne as long as they're left alone which they never are. 

 

A goid chunk of the books are devoted to the smallfolk' suffering.

[GraceK]

Make of that what you will, if you guys believe Friki. 🤷🏻‍♀️ 

[GrailKing]

beat me by --- this much  : )

[YaddaYadda]

49 minutes ago, GraceK said:

It sounds like fanfiction written by a bitter Tyrion Stan who is unhappy with the  “Tyrion is executed” leaks and is trolling everyone.  Also, Bronn helps him?  The Bronn who makes his living off the nobles and doesn’t give a shit for the small folk? What’s he going to do in this new glorious future? He still wants his castle last time we checked in with him 😂😂😂😂

Silly! Bronn becomes king. It is known. 

[whateverdgaf]

43 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

To be fair, you actually are meant to root for the smallfolk within the books and show. 

Martin does put a lot of emphasis on the people not caring who sits the throne as long as they're left alone which they never are. 

 

A goid chunk of the books are devoted to the smallfolk' suffering.

I hope we do get some satisfaction for the smallfolk next season, a cathartic moment where they call out the nobles (wasn't there a casting call for a 'scene stealing Northerner' or something similar?) and some strong indication that their lives will improve, such as Dany or Jon making reforms in their favour. With so many of the characters and plot lines in the same place and in close confines with the smallfolk, their ordeal might have a bit more focus. Especially as the poverty that comes with Winter has the potential to be a good source of conflict next year. It would also be good development for whatever character ends up on the throne.

[nikma]

If D&D and GRRM thought that perspective of smallfolk  is important they would't make all characters nobles.

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

If D&D and GRRM thought that perspective of smallfolk  is important they would't make all characters nobles.

But they are important. The heroes are the ones most sympathetic to the smallfolk and while the main characters are all nobles, they are surrounded by smallfolk-type characters.

 

AFFC is one long book on how much they've suffered under the War of Five Kings.

Edited January 2, 2019 by WindyNights

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

Make of that what you will, if you guys believe Friki. 🤷🏻‍♀️ 

I would hope no one actually needed Friki to tell them that a poster calling himself TyrionKillsEveryone and suggesting that every remaining major character is killed off at the end of the show is probably full of shit.

[nikma]

34 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

But they are important.

Their perspective is not. 

 

34 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

AFFC is one long book on how much they've suffered under the War of Five Kings.

Empty statement, if we don't really have smallfolk characters. 

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

A goid chunk of the books are devoted to the smallfolk' suffering.

Not a good chunk of the POVs, which is all you need to know. The focus is squarely on not just the nobles but the great houses of Westeros (Stark, Lannister, and Targaryen), and of the five lead characters, four are nobly born and one is nobly born but doesn't know it. Then there are the other POVs, including Lannisters, Greyjoys, Martells, and Brienne of Tarth. All nobles. There are characters like Davos as POVs, but they’re in the minority.

If GRRM really cared about the smallfolk suffering, he would have put them front and centre, but he didn't. 

Edited January 2, 2019 by Eyes High

[BadAssRobinArryn]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

But they are important. The heroes are the ones most sympathetic to the smallfolk

Which gives us a reason to root for the "heroes". But it doesn't give us a reason to root for what are mostly cyphers. I admit that it's worse in the TV series than in the books. But even in the books' we don't really know much about the smallfolks perspective. And if it were that crucial to the series' ending, than D&D would have spend at least some screen time for them as well.

 

Quote

and while the main characters are all nobles, they are surrounded by smallfolk-type characters.

Are they? Most of the likable Smallfolk-like characters in the show, like Hodor, are killed off by now.

Who is left?

- Maybe Missandei and Grey Worm, both of whom are deeply loyal to Dany and definitely wouldn't consider it a happy ending if she gets killed. And if the Dragon Pit gets blown up and the Friki spoilers are true, then Grey Worm dies as well.

- Gilly. But Sam is supposed to be in the Dragon Pit and would therefore die as well. So she would suffer by Tyrion's action, too.

- Gendry, but even he is really of royal Heritage.

- And Tormund, who is not smallfolk but a wildling and therefore an outsider. But he is far from having a spotless past and caused some sufferings as well (much as I like him), so why should we think someone like him would be a better choice than Jon or Dany? Besides, casting spoilers (or the lack of them in this case) indicate that he isn't long for this world anymore, too.

Edited January 2, 2019 by BadAssRobinArryn

[Wouter]

29 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Not a good chunk of the POVs, which is all you need to know. The focus is squarely on not just the nobles but the great houses of Westeros (Stark, Lannister, and Targaryen), and of the five lead characters, four are nobly born and one is nobly born but doesn't know it.

Jon is nobly born, too, even without the Rhaegar revelation taken into account. An acknowledged noble bastard is still a noble himself, with nobly privileges.

[GraceK]

Also, the smallfolk haven’t really been portrayed all that sympathetically either on the show. They had one justified riot back when Joffrey was King, but even then you had gang rapists and people tearing off heads. Real nice. Since then they threw shit and piss on a woman walking naked down a street, went along with the Faith militant, haven’t done shit to revolt against Cersei, are happy to throw things at anyone in chains. Euron summed up it best, the people of Kings Landing just like heads on spikes. The countryside is littered with bandits, and it’s every man for himself. What do you think will happen if there are no more kings and nobles? That it will turn into a utopian paradise where everyone takes care of each other and governs themselves with law and order? HA! The strongest will prey on the weak and a new king will just crown himself in his own territory. That’s how it works. 

Edited January 2, 2019 by GraceK

[Happy Harpy]

57 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

If GRRM really cared about the smallfolk suffering, he would have put them front and centre, but he didn't. 

 

Agreed. Even characters who have the most baseborn origin, like Varys, Davos or Melisandre, are now lords or counsel Kings or both. BTW, in spite of her royal blood Daenerys' trajectory is similar to theirs. The smallfolk has been a MacGuffin for now, instead of a player. it's actually quite realistic because kings or high nobles in the Middle Ages who cared about their subjects and considered them as human beings were a rare exception.

The biggest plot about common folks happened in Meereen -and it was widely qualified as "boring", wasn't it? It's probably the only place where the smallfolk was showed as politically divided, disagreeing with their ruler, and actually acting against their ruler.

In Westeros, nothing. No leader emerged from the riot against Joffrey in S2, and the people of KL acclaimed him in S3. They saw what Cersei did with the Sept and yet they follow her, after having followed the High Sparrow and spit on her during her Walk of Atonement. They're worse than the Northern Lords!

There was the Brotherhood, of course, which I could have seen as an embryo of a more popular movement but 1) their leaders were a lord and a knight and 2) it's now down to Beric and if things go according to books, he's toast too. I don't rule out some of them popping up in 8x04, since it seems the WF party will go through the Riverlands. But 6 episodes seem awfully short for the smallfolk to become a main actor, for some smallfolk characters to become prominent (especially in a last season where the audience wants to see the characters they already know and no time wasted on newcomers, imo) and for whatever change in Westeros to come from the base.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Happy Harpy
Multitasking and spelling, not friends.

[anamika]

9 hours ago, screamin said:

Do we know for certain that the scene of Jon surveying the damage to KL comes after ALL the fighting is over in the war?

 

I doubt Jon is taking a stroll through the streets of KL while the AOTD is knocking on the gates. Javi/Friki have mentioned that this is the aftermath of the war on the dead. Tyrion closes the gates of KL to prevent the folks from becoming wights - (i.e) during the fight against the WW.

Plus, we have this from Friki in response to the silly Tyrion kills everyone fake leaks:

Quote

Well he was firmly sure it wasn't happening. I think he was sure what happens at the DP and there is no big Tyrion speech with him saying they all need to die. Regardless he also says Tyrion killing Jon and Dany does not happen--that the Tyrion found out as a traitor does happen with Dany and Jon alive and NOT with a dead Jon and Dany flashback...that is a scene Friki has given out too. For TKE's spoiler to make sense--Jon and Dany need to be dead at that scene.

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/abw11s/friki_says_the_tyrionkillseveryone_spoilers_are/ed3e08y

Again, Friki is insistent that Tyrion's crimes includes a betrayal against the Starks, not Dany. More specifically I think it would have to be a betrayal against Arya, Sansa and Bran/WF in the North when they are up there for the first three episodes.

2 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

There was the Brotherhood, of course, which I could have seen as an embryo of a more popular movement but 1) their leaders were a lord and a knight and 2) it's now down to Beric and if things go according to books, he's toast too.

We did have the 'Broken man' show up as brother Ray in the community of peaceful hippies that takes in the Hound. But then a trio of outlaw brotherhood without banners swiftly dispatches them all confirming the show's central thesis that all good men must die.

Edited January 3, 2019 by anamika

[ParadoxLost]

23 hours ago, anamika said:

And well if the Starks took Tyrion engineering Jon's murder as a betrayal of the Starks, would not Dany - who also loves Jon - see it as a betrayal against her as well?  But Friki is pretty adamant that it is only the Starks that Tyrion betrays. Not Dany.

There is not much that can be distinctly seen as Tyrion betraying the "Starks", not Dany.

I would hazard a guess that its got to be about Jamie.  Something along the lines of they have a temporary truce while at war but ultimately Arya/Sansa demand he pay for throwing Bran off a building and they want a Lannister head on a pike for Ned, Cat, and Rob.  Tyrion can't allow that and takes an action that betrays the Starks to save Jamie at some point and Dany won't overlook it because that won't go over well with the North and allows Tyrion to be put on trial.

[nikma]

There is no reason that Sansa and Arya would want Cersei alive after the war. And even Jaime isn't safe IMO.

[anamika]

43 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

There is not much that can be distinctly seen as Tyrion betraying the "Starks", not Dany.

I would hazard a guess that its got to be about Jamie.  Something along the lines of they have a temporary truce while at war but ultimately Arya/Sansa demand he pay for throwing Bran off a building and they want a Lannister head on a pike for Ned, Cat, and Rob.  Tyrion can't allow that and takes an action that betrays the Starks to save Jamie at some point and Dany won't overlook it because that won't go over well with the North and allows Tyrion to be put on trial.

I could see Arya/Sansa/Bran be at cross purposes with Tyrion/Jaime. I mean, Dany's beef with the Lannisters is for the throne. But this book started with the enmities between house Stark and Lannister and has continued from then. The central political conflict was between these houses. House Lannister is responsible for what happened to Bran, Ned, Cat, Robb, Rickon, their loyal men and pretty much the destruction of house Stark. If Tyrion is going to choose his family at the end, then it could only see him going against house Stark in some way.

I leave Jon out of this cause while he is heavily involved in Northern politics in the books and wants to see all the Lannisters dead, show Jon seems to be only concerned about the AOTD. I would add Bran to this. If there is conflict between Starks and Lannisters on the show it will be Sansa/Arya Vs Tyrion/Jaime/Cersei

Edited January 3, 2019 by anamika

[Eyes High]

Personally, I see enough in S7 to support the idea that Tyrion could betray Dany: he’s insecure about Dany potentially turning on him, anxious to protect the Lannisters from her wrath, fearful of Dany turning into another Aerys, bitter about his unrequited feelings for her, whatever, fine. It’s Tyrion betraying the Starks and not Dany that makes no sense.

[screamin]

42 minutes ago, anamika said:

I doubt Jon is taking a stroll through the streets of KL while the AOTD is knocking on the gates. Javi/Friki have mentioned that this is the aftermath of the war on the dead. Tyrion closes the gates of KL to prevent the folks from becoming wights - (i.e) during the fight against the WW.

Maybe he is aiding in the search for survivors in cellars and such after the catastrophe? It would be characteristic of Jon to do so even if the war isn't over, even if such a search seems hopeless and even if the NK has not been killed but only fled after being dealt a heavy, though only temporary defeat.

Thing is, it just seems odd that the war should end and the NK be killed and both Jon and Dany survive it, without any reference to the Azor Ahai legend, requiring that the savior sacrifice something vital to themself to defeat the darkness. It takes  all the groundwork laid by GRRM (most repeated in the show) - the Azor Ahai story, the ancestry of both Dany and Jon, the clarification that the Prince that was Promised could actually be the Princess that was Promised - and basically tosses it aside as irrelevant. I still think one or the other of them has to go to enable the survivor to defeat the NK.

[anamika]

1 minute ago, screamin said:

Maybe he is aiding in the search for survivors in cellars and such after the catastrophe? It would be characteristic of Jon to do so even if the war isn't over, even if such a search seems hopeless and even if the NK has not been killed but only fled after being dealt a heavy, though only temporary defeat.

No, as per Javi they are surveying the destruction of KL at the end. Not searching for survivors while the NK is attacking through air and land. As per Javi, the person who is getting folks out of the ruble and rescuing survivors is Arya. She is on the KL streets helping people get out - while Tyrion is apparently making it harder by closing the gates.

18 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Personally, I see enough in S7 to support the idea that Tyrion could betray Dany: he’s insecure about Dany potentially turning on him, anxious to protect the Lannisters from her wrath, fearful of Dany turning into another Aerys, bitter about his unrequited feelings for her, whatever, fine. It’s Tyrion betraying the Starks and not Dany that makes no sense.

I agree that the build up is there for Tyrion betraying Dany as per last season. Plus, as per the books, Dany is due one betrayal for love and both the script and Dinklage have mentioned Tyrion's romantic love of Dany. We have original outline triangle and a deadly rivalry between Jon and Tyrion.

But as per Friki, Tyrion is betraying the Starks. And not Dany.

Looking at cast filming times, I get the feeling that Emilia has not filmed as much as the other main cast. This could be because Dany is doing a lot of dragon fighting - which requires just a week of hardcore filming on the dragon prop or Dany is getting sidelined towards the end because she is pregnant. Or she dies. I think BsB mentioned there are some really great fights/stunts between Dany/Drogon and Nk/Viserion.

Either way, just looking at which actors filmed the most, next season seems to be the season of Jon, Arya and Tyrion.  Looking back at the original outline, the final conflict was between Tyrion and Jon/Arya - Tyrion Vs Starks. And Kit, Maisie and Peter did the maximum filming on the KL set in the months of May - July. With Liam/Davos added in as an extra character. It could be that the Starks chase Tyrion all the way to KL after he does something shitty in WF.

[alcasinoroyale]

11 minutes ago, screamin said:

Thing is, it just seems odd that the war should end and the NK be killed and both Jon and Dany survive it, without any reference to the Azor Ahai legend, requiring that the savior sacrifice something vital to themself to defeat the darkness. It takes  all the groundwork laid by GRRM (most repeated in the show) - the Azor Ahai story, the ancestry of both Dany and Jon, the clarification that the Prince that was Promised could actually be the Princess that was Promised - and basically tosses it aside as irrelevant. I still think one or the other of them has to go to enable the survivor to defeat the NK.

2

I wonder if Melisandre somewhat fills this role. While she misinterpreted her visions, it eventually led her to Jon. She resurrected Jon through R'hllor, she brought Jon and Dany together, and we know that she turns some of the dead against the NK. It's likely that her sacrifice weakens the NK in some way. It's a battle between the servants of R'hllor and the Great Other. There are several arguments against this though because Mel wouldn't necessarily be someone vital to Jon in terms of importance like Dany, but without her in Jon's company, what would have happened to him if "For the Watch" still occurred. 

[GraceK]

9 minutes ago, alcasinoroyale said:

I wonder if Melisandre somewhat fills this role. While she misinterpreted her visions, it eventually led her to Jon. She resurrected Jon through R'hllor, she brought Jon and Dany together, and we know that she turns some of the dead against the NK. It's likely that her sacrifice weakens the NK in some way. It's a battle between the servants of R'hllor and the Great Other. There are several arguments against this though because Mel wouldn't necessarily be someone vital to Jon in terms of importance like Dany, but without her in Jon's company, what would have happened to him if "For the Watch" still occurred. 

It’s also possible that Bran is the prince that was promised and he’s the one who dies  in some sacrificial way. There has been almost no mention at all of Bran in filming leaks or spoilers ( so much secrecy around him ) and yet he is the one Stark besides Jon who has the strongest tie and connection to the WW and NK since season 1. It surprises me that with all the theories of Dany dies, and Jon dies, and Queen Sansas , everyone forgets Bran . I know he was sidelined in season 7, but they can fix that with pretty much zero effort in season 8 because we have 6 seasons of build up with his story and his “otherness”.  With this last season focusing so much now on the AOTD and the final battle he has to be a pivotal figure. Wouldn’t that be unexpected and surprising? 

Edited January 3, 2019 by GraceK

[anamika]

12 minutes ago, GraceK said:

It’s also possible that Bran is the prince that was promised and he’s the one who dies  in some sacrificial way.

According to Friki, Bran survives and is in the great council trial judging Tyrion after the great war. Friki speculates the final scene of the series will be a callback to chapter I of the books and the first episode of the show, where Ned executes a deserter and Bran watches. This time it will be Jon executing Tyrion and we will see it from Bran's POV.

I had a mentioned on the endgame thread a long time ago now a theory where the show would end with Jon being executed as a NW deserter by Bran, but it seems we now have a new candidate for execution at the end - Tyrion.

Edited January 3, 2019 by anamika

[screamin]

15 minutes ago, GraceK said:

It’s also possible that Bran is the prince that was promised and he’s the one who dies  in some sacrificial way. There has been almost no mention at all of Bran in filming leaks or spoilers ( so much secrecy around him ) and yet he is the one Stark besides Jon who has the strongest tie and connection to the WW and NK since season 1. It surprises me that with all the theories of Dany dies, and Jon dies, and Queen Sansas , everyone forgets Bran . I know he was sidelined in season 7, but they can fix that with pretty much zero effort in season 8 because we have 6 seasons of build up with his story and his “otherness”.  With this last season focusing so much now on the AOTD and the final battle he has to be a pivotal figure. Wouldn’t that be unexpected and surprising? 

Bran's no Targaryen, though.

[ParadoxLost]

18 minutes ago, GraceK said:

It’s also possible that Bran is the prince that was promised and he’s the one who dies  in some sacrificial way. 

I'm still not completely convinced that they win the battle against the NK but not the war and a Dany/Jon baby is the prince that was promised and this whole show/ book series is a prologue.  

[GraceK]

7 minutes ago, screamin said:

Bran's no Targaryen, though.

Maybe he is!!!!!!!’ Are we Really sure Ned is his dad? 😂😂😂😂😂

Edited January 3, 2019 by GraceK

[bubble sparkly]

It's also possible the AA prophecy is not straightforward and is not going to end up as a duplicate of the story we've been told.  For starters, prophecies have been shown to be pretty damn fallible.  Rhaegar was convinced for years that he was TPTWP, Mel killed Shireen because she thought Stannis was TPTWP etc.  Even if the AA prophecy is true, it doesn't have to mean that someone purposefully sacrifices themselves ala the tale.  There are a few popular fandom theories that the "stabbing" is sex and Jon or future baby Targ are lightbringer etc.

[GraceK]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

It's also possible the AA prophecy is not straightforward and is not going to end up as a duplicate of the story we've been told.  For starters, prophecies have been shown to be pretty damn fallible.  Rhaegar was convinced for years that he was TPTWP, Mel killed Shireen because she thought Stannis was TPTWP etc.  Even if the AA prophecy is true, it doesn't have to mean that someone purposefully sacrifices themselves ala the tale.  There are a few popular fandom theories that the "stabbing" is sex and Jon or future baby Targ are lightbringer etc.

Good point. Dany could be AA and her dragons could be lightbringer. Or it’s all just a metaphor for Jon being the one who brings light back into the world by defeating the NK, not a literal interpretation by actually stabbing his lover to death. 

Edited January 3, 2019 by GraceK
Redundancy

[WindyNights]

6 hours ago, screamin said:

Bran's no Targaryen, though.

TPTWP might not even be a Targaryen. The Ghost of High Heart got that TPWp would be born from Aerys and Rhaella's line  from the Old Gods aka Bloodraven who may have just told her that so Daeneys could be born to bring dragons back into the world.

[screamin]

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

TPTWP might not even be a Targaryen. The Ghost of High Heart got that TPWp would be born from Aerys and Rhaella's line  from the Old Gods aka Bloodraven who may have just told her that so Daeneys could be born to bring dragons back into the world.

But if Danarys is needed to revive dragons to help defeat the NK, then she DOES fill the criteria for the PtwP, willy-nilly.

[Wouter]

12 hours ago, GraceK said:

Good point. Dany could be AA and her dragons could be lightbringer. Or it’s all just a metaphor for Jon being the one who brings light back into the world by defeating the NK, not a literal interpretation by actually stabbing his lover to death. 

It's a long-standing theory among bookreaders that Dany's dragons are "lightbringer" (the magical weapon to use against the Others/White Walkers) and Drogo was the sacrifice to claim that weapon.

The existence of Jon, as a serious competitor as far as "prince that was promised" goes, is the main reason that this theory didn't get universally accepted.

[WindyNights]

9 hours ago, screamin said:

But if Danarys is needed to revive dragons to help defeat the NK, then she DOES fill the criteria for the PtwP, willy-nilly.

This also depends on that actually being a criteria and not something Bloodraven created and communicated through magical channels.

[screamin]

22 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

This also depends on that actually being a criteria and not something Bloodraven created and communicated through magical channels.

Seems to me that the whole Prince that Was Promised thing is a longstanding legend that predates Bloodraven, no? Even Bloodraven said he couldn't change the past.

[Colorful Mess]

On Lightbringer - yes, its Dany. However there is still a debate going on about what that entails. Most fans buy into the ice vs. fire dichotomy as bad vs. good because of genre expectations. But if you read closely it becomes clear that GRRM criticizes this motif by having a fanatic like Melisandre adhere to this kind of binary thinking. Meanwhile, he subtly introduces the Living Land as a counterpoint to pure Ice and pure Fire, mainly through Bran and the way his magic is rooted in the trees (and the animals). Hiding underneath the earth is also portrayed positively for the Starks. Blended elements are also more positive than any pure element by itself. Ned's sword is a mixture of ice and fire. Dragonglass is a mixture of earth and fire. Longclaw is also a blend of earth and fire (bears, wolves, pale stone). Purity is a bad thing in this universe, whether its blood purity (Targaryen incest) or religious fanaticism or extreme elemental magic. Fire in small doses is portrayed more positively, with the contrast between a torch/camp/hearth fire being "life" and wildfire/dragonfire being linked to "death." So it's not as simple as Dany=savior.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[GrailKing]

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

Seems to me that the whole Prince that Was Promised thing is a longstanding legend that predates Bloodraven, no? Even Bloodraven said he couldn't change the past.

Technically, you're not changing the past. It's a time-loop. Whatever you change was destined for you to change.

And then you have to factor in what was tweaked by Bloodraven.

And as we saw with Melisandre, Bloodraven can communicate with Fire priests.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Technically, you're not changing the past. It's a time-loop. Whatever you change was destined for you to change.

And then you have to factor in what was tweaked by Bloodraven.

And as we saw with Melisandre, Bloodraven can communicate with Fire priests.

If it was always so, that means that Bloodraven knew of the legend of the Prince That Was Promised ever since he was a child, when he heard it as an already ancient legend. If it existed in his timeline already, why would he feel the need to go back in time to insert the legend? It's there already. 

Aside from the paradoxical nature of it, it would be a terribly lame reveal on the show that would require a whole lot of unconvincing doubletalk by Bran speaking at secondhand about something he didn't do personally and Bloodraven never told him onscreen. The reveal of the significance of 'Hodor' worked so well because it required NO tiresome explanation. We were SHOWN Hodor's damage as a minor mystery from the beginning of the show. And when we saw young articulate Hodor in the flashback, it intensified the mystery and our curiosity - so that the solution of the mystery came as a shocking revelation. We didn't need an explanation that Bran's damage of Hodor was always destined to happen...we SAW it. We ALSO saw that it only could've happened if both Bran AND Bloodraven were ignorant of how that damage was caused - because Bran would never have been callous enough to have taken the actions that led to the death of Hodor, Bloodraven and everyone else who died in the WW attack if he'd been warned by someone with foresight.

Destiny is destiny because it can't be evaded. By the same token, it doesn't need to be engineered. If it's destined to happen, Bloodraven doesn't need to deliberately arrange it to happen. And we don't need to open the can of worms of WHY Bloodraven knows he's destined to originate in the distant past the legend of TPTW that he's known all his life as something that already existed - but at the same time be totally ignorant that Bran is destined to kill his ass. It would lead to a lot of tedious wrangling about free will - and DEFINITELY won't make good TV.

[GrailKing]

Anyone have a translation for Friki’s latest on Tyrion?


·
3 hours ago
I can do it. Give a bout 20 to 30 mins.

·
3 hours ago
Thank you in advance

 

level 3
queen_of_the_night18
15 points
·
2 hours ago
Breaking every 5 minutes. Here are the

He opens explaining that he's got about four or five direct messages talking about a new theory Tyrion Kills Everybody and from the start found it strange. U/farnorther has sent Friki a summary of all the threads. 01:39 Friki thinks he had a good start, but then said that Friki had the right information (about Tyrion being a traitor), but lacked a few facts. But Friki highlights that his leak is opposite to what TKE has suggested and, since just one of them can be true, he'd analyze point by point. 02:14 TKE says that Tyrion betrays Jon and Daenerys because he is jealous. Friki remembers that this is something everybody has already mentioned, including Peter Dinklage who admits that Tyrion may feel something for Daenerys. The scene of sex boat and Tyrion observing from the corridor is what suggests his jealousy.
03:01 What will Tyrion do with his feeling? First his is an accomplice of Cersei. They plan together to kidnap Daenerys, and Bronn carries the plan. Daenerys is taken to a dungeon as a prisoner, apparently after they all defeat the Night King. Daenerys is about to go into labor and starts to bleed a lot and pleads for her life and the baby's, but Cersei ignores her. Jon Snow goes to KL to rescue Daenerys. Jon almost makes it, but Tyrion, hid in the shadows, stabs him to death. Jon dies, Daenerys dies due her hemorrhage and the baby... dies. 04:09 Friki calls it a fan fiction, all is wrong and doesn't match with the order of the things neither with the info that Friki and Javi Marcos have. Above all, the best, epic saga from TV, one of the best of books, the great work of GRRM, that tells us the story of the Targaryen restoration cannot end with Daenerys Targeryen dying just like Joanna Lannister, Lyanna Stark and her now mother: childbirth. 5:19 Friki is against the theory of Daenerys dying on childbirth. It's a soap opera, a bad one and not an ending of great writers. Back to the TKE, all the timeline is completely wrong.

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queen_of_the_night18
9 points
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2 hours ago
05:25 "the" dramatical peak of the last season will be the fire in King's Landing. According to one of the first leaks, when KL burns, Cersei is no longer alive. Also, according to the leak that Javi Marcos has shared, Peter Dinklage's last scene was of Tyrion's walking through the ashes of Kings Landing. And he is with Jon Snow as well as Ser Davos.

06:13 Jon cannot come to rescue Daenerys in King's Landing because King's Landing will be destroyed.Completely. Jon Snow will only enter the city AFTER the city has been burned down. Tyrion will look around and see the massacre that's happened and feel guilty for it. There will be many burned bodies and none of them is of a wight. 07:00 TKE claims that this is false and it was HBO leading Javi Marcos to believe in something that will not happen. 07:13 Friki jokes that according to people, HBO is pulling an Ocean 11's plan, of misleading us all by faking amazing set ups. The lie that HBO is planting is to fool Javi and Friki to think Tyrion is the one burning KL down.

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1 hour ago
07:45 Friki highlights that Javi never said that Tyrion will burn King's Landing. 08:00 Javi has mentioned that Tyrion will be responsible for many deaths in Kings Landing. Period. And added that Tyrion will feel guilty for the horror that he will bring. Javi never said HOW will the massacre happen. Friki and Javi have discussed about the KL's burning, but they had different opinions for what would be Tyrion's role and how the fire will happen. 08:33 One THEORY had Tyrion being responsible for setting KL on fire and it's never been confirmed. the information that Javi shared never said he would be responsible, Javi's information was about Tyrion walking through the ashes of the city. Javi had heard about the theory of Tyrion setting all on fire while Friki was against it, claiming his bet would be that Tyrion's guilt will be of blocking the gates to keep people inside the city. That would cause all the deaths. Friki's information is based on the leak that it was shot a scene with a great number of extras and that they were heard screaming "open the gates". 09:30 so there is no such information that Tyrion is the one that starts the fire. 09:50 If it isn't Tyrion, who will burn King's Landing?

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1 hour ago
09:50 If it isn't Tyrion, who will burn King's Landing? Friki remembers one of the first leaks affirmed that King's Landing will be destroyed by dragon fire. All the photos from the set seem to confirm this leak. Friki doesn't believe that it will burn with wild fire. Maybe dragon fire ignites the wild fire, but that would be another theory. Fact is the dragon fire attack. 10:52 that dragon fire attack confirms that there will be a dance of dragons, meaning that the Night King will face either Jon or Daenerys on air. 11:26 There are claims that Bran would be responsible for starting the Dragon fire as he will warg into one of the dragons. Friki laughs a bit and admits that doesn't discard that Bran could warg into Dragon or even Viserion. If he wargs into Viserion, he could use the ice dragon against the Night King. But as a consequence, by accident Viserion ends up burning the city down. It's a theory, not a leak. 12:11TKE also claims that Bran and Sam travel in time and see Tyrion's treason. The treason of stabbing Jon Snow in the back. Friki laughs, saying that all the stabs that Jon's got from the Night Watch weren't enough and that the writers would not not have creativity of at least coming up with a new way to kill Jon, repeating themselves and not killing Jon heroically, opting to not have Jon's definite death as something epic. Eight seasons later the only death that they'd come up with is another stabbing. (Friki is being sarcastic in case someone reads as he is affirming this theory. It's the opposite, he is adamantly against it).

13:15 After Bran and Sam find out about Tyrion will be judged and he would demand to be judged at the Dragon pit. Friki takes another laugh about an accused man demanding on the address he'd rather be judged. Especially when he is accused to kill Jon Snow, no one would demand where Tyrion would prefer anything. Non sense. 14:50 the reason why Tyrion's judgement will happen in Dragon Pit is that King's Landing is destroyed, there is no other place. Friki reminds us that there are photos that show that King's Landing will be destroyed. 15:18 It doesn't stop there. Tyrion accuses all the noble families as responsible for KL's destruction and that everybody should die, including himself. So the series would end without any noble family, just the regular people rebuilding the city. 15:56 The end would be like that because just as Tyrion is blaming all the noble houses, he's previously had ordered Bronn to -- the same Bronn who would have kidnapped Daenerys -- start the fire on all hidden places of wild fire and it all explodes and everybody dies. That would be the reason the shooting in Spain didn't have green screens for efffects as it would cut to all the explosions. So there will not only have ONE fire, but two. One caused by Bran and another by Bronn. Friki laughs again. 17:31 Friki laughs as there is no sense at all to TKE's theory.

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queen_of_the_night18
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1 hour ago
17:34 There will be just one fire and Tyrion's trial will happen sometime AFTER the war is over. At the trial Tyrion's looks is one that appears that he was on the cells for weeks. Long haircut, ragged clothes. 18:42 the timeline is a big fire in King's Landing. Tyrion walks through the ashes in the aftermath. 18:49 two theories Tyrion caused the fire (Tyrion) or Tyrion closed the gates (Friki's). Tyrion's treason will be motivated by his feelings for his family as well as something that will be involved with the great massacre at King's Landing. Trial is attended by many characters already mentioned. 19:39 TKE is fan fiction and he managed all little theories and facts to explain why Daenerys and Jon are not at the trial. He opted for the awful suggestion of Daenerys dying at childbirth and Jon being stabbed. Again. 20:37 he goes back into laughing a bit on the absurd of TKE's theory and that poor Bronn is always carrying all the bad deeds ordered by Tyrion. Also there is no way that there will be no noble families in the end. Otherwise why rebuild The Red Keep and photos have showed. All no sense.

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57 minutes ago
Friki stands by his leak and that his source has confirmed that Tyrion will face another trial. That is it.

Friki also mentions that there are rumors that HBO will have its red carpet and screening of the first episode of Season 8 on March 25th. It it is confirmed, the airing would happen a week later. That means that it could be April 7th. It's possible because it was Big Little Lies 2 that could interfere with GOT's dates, but now BLL2 will start in June and True Detective will air two episodes back to back, so there is a chance to be true. Friki says that around January 15th a promo with the statues of all the characters should be aired and confirming the premiere date.

The end

[anamika]

54 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Friki jokes that according to people, HBO is pulling an Ocean 11's plan, of misleading us all by faking amazing set ups. The lie that HBO is planting is to fool Javi and Friki to think Tyrion is the one burning KL down.

I find this slightly hilarious coming from Friki of all people. According to Friki, HBO switched on the lights at night at Italica to fool Reddit into thinking that there were night shoots, had extras cut their hair and engage in fight training only to suddenly stand around guarding Tyrion and took actors like Joe Dempsie to Spain and made them lie about filming there.

[GrailKing]

38 minutes ago, anamika said:

I find this slightly hilarious coming from Friki of all people. According to Friki, HBO switched on the lights at night at Italica to fool Reddit into thinking that there were night shoots, had extras cut their hair and engage in fight training only to suddenly stand around guarding Tyrion and took actors like Joe Dempsie to Spain and made them lie about filming there.

I'm just staying neutral on all this shit as best I can. LOL 

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, screamin said:

If it was always so, that means that Bloodraven knew of the legend of the Prince That Was Promised ever since he was a child, when he heard it as an already ancient legend. If it existed in his timeline already, why would he feel the need to go back in time to insert the legend? It's there already. 

Aside from the paradoxical nature of it, it would be a terribly lame reveal on the show that would require a whole lot of unconvincing doubletalk by Bran speaking at secondhand about something he didn't do personally and Bloodraven never told him onscreen. The reveal of the significance of 'Hodor' worked so well because it required NO tiresome explanation. We were SHOWN Hodor's damage as a minor mystery from the beginning of the show. And when we saw young articulate Hodor in the flashback, it intensified the mystery and our curiosity - so that the solution of the mystery came as a shocking revelation. We didn't need an explanation that Bran's damage of Hodor was always destined to happen...we SAW it. We ALSO saw that it only could've happened if both Bran AND Bloodraven were ignorant of how that damage was caused - because Bran would never have been callous enough to have taken the actions that led to the death of Hodor, Bloodraven and everyone else who died in the WW attack if he'd been warned by someone with foresight.

Destiny is destiny because it can't be evaded. By the same token, it doesn't need to be engineered. If it's destined to happen, Bloodraven doesn't need to deliberately arrange it to happen. And we don't need to open the can of worms of WHY Bloodraven knows he's destined to originate in the distant past the legend of TPTW that he's known all his life as something that already existed - but at the same time be totally ignorant that Bran is destined to kill his ass. It would lead to a lot of tedious wrangling about free will - and DEFINITELY won't make good TV.

None of this will be on the show, don't worry, and I never expected it to be. The show won't even explain what the weirwoods are when that's kind of vital.

[WindyNights]

6 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Anyone have a translation for Friki’s latest on Tyrion?


·
3 hours ago
I can do it. Give a bout 20 to 30 mins.

·
3 hours ago
Thank you in advance

 

level 3
queen_of_the_night18
15 points
·
2 hours ago
Breaking every 5 minutes. Here are the

He opens explaining that he's got about four or five direct messages talking about a new theory Tyrion Kills Everybody and from the start found it strange. U/farnorther has sent Friki a summary of all the threads. 01:39 Friki thinks he had a good start, but then said that Friki had the right information (about Tyrion being a traitor), but lacked a few facts. But Friki highlights that his leak is opposite to what TKE has suggested and, since just one of them can be true, he'd analyze point by point. 02:14 TKE says that Tyrion betrays Jon and Daenerys because he is jealous. Friki remembers that this is something everybody has already mentioned, including Peter Dinklage who admits that Tyrion may feel something for Daenerys. The scene of sex boat and Tyrion observing from the corridor is what suggests his jealousy.
03:01 What will Tyrion do with his feeling? First his is an accomplice of Cersei. They plan together to kidnap Daenerys, and Bronn carries the plan. Daenerys is taken to a dungeon as a prisoner, apparently after they all defeat the Night King. Daenerys is about to go into labor and starts to bleed a lot and pleads for her life and the baby's, but Cersei ignores her. Jon Snow goes to KL to rescue Daenerys. Jon almost makes it, but Tyrion, hid in the shadows, stabs him to death. Jon dies, Daenerys dies due her hemorrhage and the baby... dies. 04:09 Friki calls it a fan fiction, all is wrong and doesn't match with the order of the things neither with the info that Friki and Javi Marcos have. Above all, the best, epic saga from TV, one of the best of books, the great work of GRRM, that tells us the story of the Targaryen restoration cannot end with Daenerys Targeryen dying just like Joanna Lannister, Lyanna Stark and her now mother: childbirth. 5:19 Friki is against the theory of Daenerys dying on childbirth. It's a soap opera, a bad one and not an ending of great writers. Back to the TKE, all the timeline is completely wrong.

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level 4
queen_of_the_night18
9 points
·
2 hours ago
05:25 "the" dramatical peak of the last season will be the fire in King's Landing. According to one of the first leaks, when KL burns, Cersei is no longer alive. Also, according to the leak that Javi Marcos has shared, Peter Dinklage's last scene was of Tyrion's walking through the ashes of Kings Landing. And he is with Jon Snow as well as Ser Davos.

06:13 Jon cannot come to rescue Daenerys in King's Landing because King's Landing will be destroyed.Completely. Jon Snow will only enter the city AFTER the city has been burned down. Tyrion will look around and see the massacre that's happened and feel guilty for it. There will be many burned bodies and none of them is of a wight. 07:00 TKE claims that this is false and it was HBO leading Javi Marcos to believe in something that will not happen. 07:13 Friki jokes that according to people, HBO is pulling an Ocean 11's plan, of misleading us all by faking amazing set ups. The lie that HBO is planting is to fool Javi and Friki to think Tyrion is the one burning KL down.

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level 5
queen_of_the_night18
Score hidden
·
1 hour ago
07:45 Friki highlights that Javi never said that Tyrion will burn King's Landing. 08:00 Javi has mentioned that Tyrion will be responsible for many deaths in Kings Landing. Period. And added that Tyrion will feel guilty for the horror that he will bring. Javi never said HOW will the massacre happen. Friki and Javi have discussed about the KL's burning, but they had different opinions for what would be Tyrion's role and how the fire will happen. 08:33 One THEORY had Tyrion being responsible for setting KL on fire and it's never been confirmed. the information that Javi shared never said he would be responsible, Javi's information was about Tyrion walking through the ashes of the city. Javi had heard about the theory of Tyrion setting all on fire while Friki was against it, claiming his bet would be that Tyrion's guilt will be of blocking the gates to keep people inside the city. That would cause all the deaths. Friki's information is based on the leak that it was shot a scene with a great number of extras and that they were heard screaming "open the gates". 09:30 so there is no such information that Tyrion is the one that starts the fire. 09:50 If it isn't Tyrion, who will burn King's Landing?

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level 6
queen_of_the_night18
Score hidden
·
1 hour ago
09:50 If it isn't Tyrion, who will burn King's Landing? Friki remembers one of the first leaks affirmed that King's Landing will be destroyed by dragon fire. All the photos from the set seem to confirm this leak. Friki doesn't believe that it will burn with wild fire. Maybe dragon fire ignites the wild fire, but that would be another theory. Fact is the dragon fire attack. 10:52 that dragon fire attack confirms that there will be a dance of dragons, meaning that the Night King will face either Jon or Daenerys on air. 11:26 There are claims that Bran would be responsible for starting the Dragon fire as he will warg into one of the dragons. Friki laughs a bit and admits that doesn't discard that Bran could warg into Dragon or even Viserion. If he wargs into Viserion, he could use the ice dragon against the Night King. But as a consequence, by accident Viserion ends up burning the city down. It's a theory, not a leak. 12:11TKE also claims that Bran and Sam travel in time and see Tyrion's treason. The treason of stabbing Jon Snow in the back. Friki laughs, saying that all the stabs that Jon's got from the Night Watch weren't enough and that the writers would not not have creativity of at least coming up with a new way to kill Jon, repeating themselves and not killing Jon heroically, opting to not have Jon's definite death as something epic. Eight seasons later the only death that they'd come up with is another stabbing. (Friki is being sarcastic in case someone reads as he is affirming this theory. It's the opposite, he is adamantly against it).

13:15 After Bran and Sam find out about Tyrion will be judged and he would demand to be judged at the Dragon pit. Friki takes another laugh about an accused man demanding on the address he'd rather be judged. Especially when he is accused to kill Jon Snow, no one would demand where Tyrion would prefer anything. Non sense. 14:50 the reason why Tyrion's judgement will happen in Dragon Pit is that King's Landing is destroyed, there is no other place. Friki reminds us that there are photos that show that King's Landing will be destroyed. 15:18 It doesn't stop there. Tyrion accuses all the noble families as responsible for KL's destruction and that everybody should die, including himself. So the series would end without any noble family, just the regular people rebuilding the city. 15:56 The end would be like that because just as Tyrion is blaming all the noble houses, he's previously had ordered Bronn to -- the same Bronn who would have kidnapped Daenerys -- start the fire on all hidden places of wild fire and it all explodes and everybody dies. That would be the reason the shooting in Spain didn't have green screens for efffects as it would cut to all the explosions. So there will not only have ONE fire, but two. One caused by Bran and another by Bronn. Friki laughs again. 17:31 Friki laughs as there is no sense at all to TKE's theory.

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1 hour ago
17:34 There will be just one fire and Tyrion's trial will happen sometime AFTER the war is over. At the trial Tyrion's looks is one that appears that he was on the cells for weeks. Long haircut, ragged clothes. 18:42 the timeline is a big fire in King's Landing. Tyrion walks through the ashes in the aftermath. 18:49 two theories Tyrion caused the fire (Tyrion) or Tyrion closed the gates (Friki's). Tyrion's treason will be motivated by his feelings for his family as well as something that will be involved with the great massacre at King's Landing. Trial is attended by many characters already mentioned. 19:39 TKE is fan fiction and he managed all little theories and facts to explain why Daenerys and Jon are not at the trial. He opted for the awful suggestion of Daenerys dying at childbirth and Jon being stabbed. Again. 20:37 he goes back into laughing a bit on the absurd of TKE's theory and that poor Bronn is always carrying all the bad deeds ordered by Tyrion. Also there is no way that there will be no noble families in the end. Otherwise why rebuild The Red Keep and photos have showed. All no sense.

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57 minutes ago
Friki stands by his leak and that his source has confirmed that Tyrion will face another trial. That is it.

Friki also mentions that there are rumors that HBO will have its red carpet and screening of the first episode of Season 8 on March 25th. It it is confirmed, the airing would happen a week later. That means that it could be April 7th. It's possible because it was Big Little Lies 2 that could interfere with GOT's dates, but now BLL2 will start in June and True Detective will air two episodes back to back, so there is a chance to be true. Friki says that around January 15th a promo with the statues of all the characters should be aired and confirming the premiere date.

The end

I don't believe TKE. But this makes Friki look like he knows even less than I thought.

[bubble sparkly]

Regarding the AA prophecy, it always makes me giggle to think how anyone could keep a straight face if Mel brings it up.  Like, girl has a terrible record with prophecies.  Terrible.  If she starts spouting that Jon's AA and he needs to kill (presumably) pregnant Dany, there would be a gaggle of people laughing her out of the building.  I can just imagine the speech Davos would give about her failures, and her previous insistence that Stannis was TPTWP and the whole Shireen debacle etc..  Mel has a massive credibility problem so I can't imagine Jon, or anyone else, being willing to risk killing someone they love on her flimsy say so.

I guess you could argue that maybe if Bran brings it up and asserts that it's the real deal then people might decide it has to be fulfilled.  But even then, Bran is not exactly infallible himself (Hodor says hi).  The NK has messed with his magic / visions in the past, and Bran is still figuring out how to really use his powers. I mean, the dude saw the Ned/Lyanna vision in s6 but somehow managed to miss the massive important secret of Lyanna telling Ned Jon's trueborn name even though he was right there, and had to go back into the vision a year later to hear that important nugget. 

Also, can you imagine Mr "you looked beautiful the night you were raped" delivering the message to Jon that he needs to kill his pregnant girlfriend/wife lol, I'm sure Bran's new lack of human emotions would make for a lovely conversation.

Edited January 4, 2019 by bubble sparkly

[screamin]

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

 There will be many burned bodies and none of them is of a wight. 

This bit doesn't make sense. Isn't a wight a zombie? How can one tell at a glance that none of the charred skeletons you're looking at were ever animated by a WW? Maybe he means none were White Walkers? Either way, it means that the burning of KL didn't get as many of the enemy as they thought they had. And if they're carefully checking the dead to figure out which are the enemy, it may explain why Jon is searching KL after the battle...maybe in the chaos of the explosion nobody knows whether the NK died in the explosion, and they're searching desperately for evidence that he did, like Visarion's charred bones.

I suspect they won't find it. Friki may be right about the destruction of KL being the series' big set piece - it will certainly be the most expensive and gaudy. But I suspect the killing of the NK will be a more intimate one on one affair that happens afterwards...after they figure out he's not dead, that he fled without his army but capable of raising another wherever he kills people, and think to consult Bran about where he went. And what's the best way to catch up to a fleeing NK on a dragon before he can make more mischief? Why, another dragonrider, of course...one who's willing to bravely pursue,  leaving their army behind.

I don't think Tyrion will be judged for the deaths in KL. Closing the gates on a burning city, trapping innocent people inside because you think that if they open wights and WW will flood out and overwhelm your army is a cold-blooded but militarily defensible move. I think what Tyrion will be judged for is engineering some failure of communication that means that Jon will fly in pursuit alone instead of with Dany and kill the NK, but without support from anyone else he will be killed in doing so.

Edited January 4, 2019 by screamin