Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, GraceK said:

Well that’s not enough apparently. There always has to be a mad queen evil Dany conspiracy theory thrown in 😂😂😂

I'm totally surprised with myself, after 7 years, I'm still effin on the fence with her.

6 hours ago, anamika said:

It's almost like he was manipulating her from the time they first meet.

The scene with Jorah, keeps Dany from killing him, then has him banished a second time.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, GraceK said:

I want her hanging out with Nymeria and Ghost ❤️

Think they survive?

I thinking not, maybe she gets one of Nymeria's pack.

[Happy Harpy]

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Anyone expecting Tyrion to act like an asshole towards Sansa in Season 8 should brace for disappointment. They've always had a good relationship in the show even under some pretty horrible circumstances, as the Sansa and Tyrion recaps pointed out. Tyrion and Sansa had plenty of time to decide they despise one another and they don't; they've only ever spoken well of each other since their parting. Sansa may well do her best haughty lady shtick with Tyrion in S8, but she's like that with pretty much everyone in the show now, so that's neither here nor there. I expect some awkwardness, but I don't expect awfulness.

 

Tyrion is obviously not happy about Jon/Dany and Sansa won't be happy about Jon/Dany. If anything, it indicates an opportunity to commiserate and bond.

It will be funny to compare the speculations, what the actors said, and what actually happens. Maybe also what they kept or not? I wonder if there are longer versions. It was edited, of course, but I felt that some sentences were cut in the middle.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[anamika]

Rory mentions Sansa in the one scene GRRM wrote in Blackwater. That's about it - more about Joffrey and the Mountain. Lots of Arya.

SanSan is definitely not happening next season.

I got very tragic vibes for house Lannister from their house vid. Tywin's line may very well end next season.

Edited December 11, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

And they had "I don't want to destroy my family" line from Tyrion.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Rory mentions Sansa in the one scene GRRM wrote in Blackwater. That's about it - more about Joffrey and the Mountain. Lots of Arya.

SanSan is definitely not happening next season.

I got very tragic vibes for house Lannister from their house vid. Tywin's line may very well end next season.

RIP SanSan. As ships go, it had a good run. There’s always fanfic.

[Minneapple]

Did anyone really think SanSan was going to be a thing? 

[whateverdgaf]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Tywin's line may very well end next season.

Although I think the Lannisters (and any house, really) is up for destruction, the whole thing about destroying 'Tywin's line' specifically counts more against its destruction than for, because that just flies against the whole 'not punishing for the father's' crime thing that has been going on. 

[SeanC]

12 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Tyrion's feelings on the matter of marriage to Sansa don't really figure into it (because they never did - he had to do what he was told).

During the Conquest we have Rhaenys Targaryen who took Torrhen Stark's daughter and married her to a child-lord in the Vale for peace-binding. These marriages were a type of hostage-taking to suppress conflict. The Targaryens used this strategy to secure territory and strengthen feudal bonds to their House. Fire and Blood emphasizes this point. I think it's going to circle back around as history always does.

As I've mentioned before, I think Dany (if she wants to conquer Westeros), will have to play the role that Rhaenys did. She would take an available Stark daughter and marry her to either Tyrion or Sweetrobin. Tyrion may resist it but it would be an interesting turn of events if Dany became Tyrion's new Tywin. Tyrion is her servant after all - as is Jon.

Dany has shown precisely zero interest in marriage-making since she got to Westeros; not even, as had been noted, the what should have been the super-obvious idea of marrying Jon so as to solve the whole sovereignty debate the characters spent the whole season having.  It would be very weird for her to suddenly become fixated on forcing marriages in the middle of a military crisis when all of the factions involved are already allied.

Moreover, Dany attempting to compel one of the Stark sisters to marry would just lead to her becoming acquainted with the business end of Needle in short order.

39 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Did anyone really think SanSan was going to be a thing? 

In the show, the possibility has been progressively shrinking from the get-go, despite occasional attempts by some fans to construct intended character parallels like them both eating soup.

[nikma]

SanSan was always pedophilic IMO. 

[Happy Harpy]

34 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Although I think the Lannisters (and any house, really) is up for destruction, the whole thing about destroying 'Tywin's line' specifically counts more against its destruction than for, because that just flies against the whole 'not punishing for the father's' crime thing that has been going on. 

That's why I think that at least one of them will have a descendance. Not Cersei, because the miscarriage was already written the S7 outline, and I think it might be the opening of S8. But Tyrion, Jaime, or even both.

It's interesting really, the good/bad configuration between the three Lannister siblings. When the show started, Tyrion was the odd man out as the only "good" Lannister. Now? Cersei stayed evil throughout. Jaime is  "good" (or "tries to be", at least). Will Cersei become the odd (wo)man out as the only "bad" Lannister vs Tyrion and Jaime? Or will it be Jaime, with Tyrion going for "bad", too? There will be some kind of symmetry, but which one could imo go either way.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[SeanC]

Just now, nikma said:

SanSan was always pedophilic IMO. 

SanSan is definitely a thing in the books, in some fashion — though obviously there’s no way to know what the long-term point of it is, since we don’t have the remaining books.

But its absence from the show has been pronounced from the very beginning, and as the seasons have gone by the most believable justification for why the writers might have downplayed it early while still planning to do it later (Sophie’s age during the first two seasons) has lost any plausibility.

[nikma]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

SanSan is definitely a thing in the books, in some fashion 

That doesn't change the fact that it pedophilic. GRRM likes to write about pedophilia and incest. 

Edited December 11, 2018 by nikma

[screamin]

54 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Although I think the Lannisters (and any house, really) is up for destruction, the whole thing about destroying 'Tywin's line' specifically counts more against its destruction than for, because that just flies against the whole 'not punishing for the father's' crime thing that has been going on. 

If all three surviving Lannisters die without issue - well,  Jaime and Cersei have done more than enough to deserve it. As for Tyrion - book Tyrion, IMO, has done enough that I wouldn't shed tears at the injustice of it. Show Tyrion is nicer of course - but I do believe in the betrayal theory. Dinklage was kind enough to acknowledge that Tyrion was blowing smoke up Dany's ass about the horror of attacking KL purely to save Cersei. Of course, he didn't intend to get their Dorne allies and the Queen of Thorns killed with his deliberate misdirection - just some of Dany's anonymous foot soldiers in the long-drawn out war he was condemning them to...but it was a betrayal just the same. I don't think it's too much of a stretch that he would do something similar but worse, and deserve what he gets for it.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

Did anyone really think SanSan was going to be a thing? 

There is something there in the books, maybe not romance; protection maybe ?

GRRM himself said there is something there.

[screamin]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

There is something there in the books, maybe not romance; protection maybe ?

GRRM himself said there is something there.

I expect Sansa will be a symbolic something representing the Hound's reformation and change of heart for him in the books, like Dante's Beatrice was symbolic for him of goodness and purity. This does not require the Hound ever meeting Sansa again, however - as seems likely to happen on the show.

Edited December 11, 2018 by screamin

[Colorful Mess]

Sansa also uses romantic embellishments with Dontos, and no one ships that. GRRM was surprised that people ship SanSan, if you watch that entire video where he talks about it. That he was surprised kills the idea that the ship was intentional. "Something" suggests a platonic BATB.  I dont think he ever intended Sandor/Sansa to be a romance. Sansa ships herself with Loras.

There is a possibility that Dany will only bring up marriage to Jon once she finds out he's a Targaryen. To me it makes more sense that she would want to marry him once he becomes a threat to her, to neutralize his claim and not before. Because if this were a story of partners who are equals, she would have married him while he was still a king. Right now he's Jorah 2.0, commander of her armies. Marriage has no political benefit to her while he's her servant.

Dany did arrange marriages in the show. Herself to Hizdahr. She was very forceful about it, which was a striking change from the books.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Eyes High]

Just a few days ago I was wistfully posting about wanting official character-specific recap videos set to music. The house videos are very satisfying on that score. Excellent editing, great use of GOT music, amazing callbacks and connections in the editing. (I'm getting kind of sick of the Light of the Seven trailer arrangement, though, which is used for the House Stark segment.)

The House Lannister recap seemed to hint (confirm?) that Dany is the YMBQ by showing a scene during Maggy's prophecy voiceover of Dany's hand touching the Dragonstone table. The House Lannister recap was probably my favourite. It was downright apocalyptic, and of course Cersei was the most prominently featured, which may account for the tone.

The House Baratheon recap ended with Stannis' execution, not Gendry's reappearance in S7 as I would have thought. I know he's not technically a Baratheon, being a bastard and all, but he is still alive and kicking.

I really liked the House Greyjoy recap, even though I think Alfie Allen rated his own recap (especially since Theon is one of the few remaining secondary characters from S1.)

I love Rory McCann's voice. His Sandor recap is very enjoyable, and of course there is heavy hinting at Cleganebowl as I expected.

[GraceK]

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The House Lannister recap seemed to hint (confirm?) that Dany is the YMBQ by showing a scene during Maggy's prophecy voiceover of Dany's hand touching the Dragonstone table. The House Lannister recap was probably my favourite. It was downright apocalyptic, and of course Cersei was the most prominently featured, which may account for the tone.

It gave me chills it was so foreboding. I loved it 😂 The Stark one brought me to tears and gave me goosebumps. Seriously I cannot wait until April. 

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

love Rory McCann's voice. His Sandor recap is very enjoyable, and of course there is heavy hinting at Cleganebowl as I expected.

He is so charming . I loved listening to him.

Edited December 11, 2018 by GraceK

[Eyes High]

10 minutes ago, GraceK said:

It gave me chills it was so foreboding. I loved it 😂 The Stark one brought me to tears and gave me goosebumps. Seriously I cannot wait until April. 

He is so charming . I loved listening to him.

Those house videos got me so hype! Even the ones for dead houses like House Tyrell.

Iain Glen has a sexy-ass voice. My goodness.

[GraceK]

Just now, Eyes High said:

Those house videos got me so hype! Even the ones for dead houses like House Tyrell.

Iain Glen has a sexy-ass voice. My goodness.

Where’s the Tyrell and Jorah videos? I didn’t see those!!!! 😩 

[Happy Harpy]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The House Baratheon recap ended with Stannis' execution, not Gendry's reappearance in S7 as I would have thought. I know he's not technically a Baratheon, being a bastard and all, but he is still alive and kicking.

It's going to be all or nothing, imo. Either he doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things (and neither does House Baratheon since it died with Stannis) either tHeY'rE hIdInG tHiNgS and Gendry is part of some "uNpReDiCtAbLe" they don't want to hint at before the season. LOL.

[Sunshinegal]

16 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

It's going to be all or nothing, imo. Either he doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things (and neither does House Baratheon since it died with Stannis) either tHeY'rE hIdInG tHiNgS and Gendry is part of some "uNpReDiCtAbLe" they don't want to hint at before the season. LOL.

Honestly if Gendry and Arya get together and get married I think it will be more likely Gendry takes the Stark name.  Gendry doesn't really have any attachment to the Baratheon name but Arya DOES have an attachment about being a Stark.  Being a Stark is what saved Arya from losing her identity and her family is very important to her. 

[GraceK]

54 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Those house videos got me so hype! Even the ones for dead houses like House Tyrell.

Iain Glen has a sexy-ass voice. My goodness.

Seriously. I just finished them thank you ! 

[OhOkayWhat]

24 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

Gendry doesn't really have any attachment to the Baratheon name

Well, he keeps mentioning his father. I think he will be legitimized as Baratheon next season and remain one for a while because he will not marry Arya.

[Wouter]

22 hours ago, GrailKing said:

As I see it something needs to bring Show Tyrion closer to his book Tyrion, and book Tyrion has a lot of resentment, on how he's treated, Sansa leaving KL, Not willing to bend the knee in the wedding, etc.

We don't know if book Tyrion would have any resentment for Sansa at the equivalent point in the books. Tyrion during ADWD has a lot of resentment for Jaime as well, but will it last? At the end of ADWD, he admits to himself that he misses Jaime (and possibly Sansa as well, depending on interpretation). By the time he comes face to face with Sansa again, he will also be back on top of the world, at least in the show he will come as hand to the Queen. 

And probably more concerned with limiting the damage, rather than the vengeance he wants during much of ADWD, when he's down, powerless and depressed.

22 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Things don't work like that in the books, where mere lack of consummation isn't enough to void a marriage automatically as it apparently is in the show, but I doubt it will matter for D&D's purposes either way, since Tyrion and Sansa's book endgames will be the same as in the show. If their book destiny is to remain married, D&D will simply have them remarry. 

I suspect that the writers were unusually sloppy (even for them) about Sansa's legal ability to remarry because it's not going to matter very much either way; I seriously doubt GRRM is going to bother with an annulment in the books. Either Tyrion/Sansa is going to die, freeing up the other to remarry without any legal problems, or they're going to remain married, meaning all D&D have to do is remarry them to get them to their book endgame marital status.

Not only is lack of consummation not enough by itself (in the books), one would expect this would have to provable in both book and show. Otherwise any marriage could be broken by one side claiming there never was consummation (see Robert and Cersei - since the children weren't his, he could have claimed this until he died).

It's possible that in the books, the main purpose of the marriage is to keep LF's plans for a Harry/Sansa marriage on ice, in which case it simply wouldn't be needed in the show (past the purple wedding).  Even if not, it may be annulled (in the books that we will never get) yet once a monarch sympathetic to Sansa (and optionally, to Tyrion) is securely in power and able to twist the arm of the Faith. 

To see the marriage last (so in the show, for them to re-marry or to reaffirm the validity of the original marriage), I think only a theoretical option wherein Tyrion is Aerys' bastard and Dany and Jon have no offspring (but one or both are around with a wish to preserve house Targaryen) could result in that. However, the probable existence of "boatsexbaby" makes this unlikely. The show has also downplayed Tyrion's possible bastard status since he freed the dragons. With Tyrion as a straight Lannister, there does not seem any reason for Sansa to commit or recommit to this marriage. 

20 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Tyrion's feelings on the matter of marriage to Sansa don't really figure into it (because they never did - he had to do what he was told).

During the Conquest we have Rhaenys Targaryen who took Torrhen Stark's daughter and married her to a child-lord in the Vale for peace-binding. These marriages were a type of hostage-taking to suppress conflict. The Targaryens used this strategy to secure territory and strengthen feudal bonds to their House. Fire and Blood emphasizes this point. I think it's going to circle back around as history always does.

As I've mentioned before, I think Dany (if she wants to conquer Westeros), will have to play the role that Rhaenys did. She would take an available Stark daughter and marry her to either Tyrion or Sweetrobin. Tyrion may resist it but it would be an interesting turn of events if Dany became Tyrion's new Tywin. Tyrion is her servant after all - as is Jon.

While I don't think Dany would force a Sansa/Tyrion marriage (except for the unlikely case where the future of her bloodline would depend on it), this is a good point relative to how Sansa could view Dany in early S8 (and in between S7 and S8). 

Sansa does not know Dany, she does know who her father is and what he did, though. In so far Dany has a reputation of her own, it's probably that of a foreign conqueror that brings Dothraki to Westerosi shores and who executes opponents with fire. Sansa is quite possibly aware of Torrhen Stark and what happened to his daughter, at the behest of the conquerors that made him kneel. Now, she knows that Jon has also knelt in much the same way as Torrhen did. Furthermore, it was indicated (in background material or interviews, IIRC) that Sansa seeks power exactly to be safe of such things like arranged/forced marriages. With merely Jon on his own as King, she was perfectly safe in this regard.

So if Sansa is far from thrilled with Jon's move (at first, before she gets to know Dany and before she gets to truly experience TAOTD), think about from her perspective. As absolute ruler, Dany could in effect take Sansa as a glorified hostage with or without a marriage that she would chose based on her politics. And since Sansa doesn't (yet) know what the relationship between Jon and Dany is (for all she knows, Jon had to make serious concessions on top of kneeling, to get the alliance he sorely needed, and he is merely one of her underlings now), she couldn't automatically count on Jon stopping it. Torrhen apparently couldn't or wouldn't stop it for his own daughter, either.

[ursula]

3 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

GRRM was surprised that people ship SanSan, if you watch that entire video where he talks about it. That he was surprised kills the idea that the ship was intentional.

No bone in this fight but I saw that as surprise that people had cottoned on to the ship after (what he thought was) him being subtle.

(This is the same dude that felt GOT was in the right hands because D & D guessed R+L=J. He clearly underestimates just how clever his readers are - and how much time he's given them to decipher all his clues).

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

No bone in this fight but I saw that as surprise that people had cottoned on to the ship after (what he thought was) him being subtle.

(This is the same dude that felt GOT was in the right hands because D & D guessed R+L=J. He clearly underestimates just how clever his readers are - and how much time he's given them to decipher all his clues).

Yes, GRRM has made a little hobby out of teasing SanSan. If I were a SanSan fan and S8 confirms the ship isn’t endgame, I’d feel legitimately jerked around by GRRM.

My sense from S8 filming info is that Sandor is going to perish as a result of Cleganebowl, so I guess that if that if I’m right, D&D found out a long time ago that Sandor either dies or at least is irrelevant to Sansa’s endgame.

I assume that D&D decided a while back not to even bother with the ship,  except as a one-sided thing on Sandor’s part, focusing instead on his bond with Arya. Sansa getting a couple of cats and calling it a day at the end of S8 just got even more likely.

As for @Wouter raising the possibility of an annulment of Sansa and Tyrion’s marriage in the books, I think that there’s no way. GRRM originally planned them to remain married for five years at least, so he was never planning on an annulment, either. You can kind of see the bones of the skipped five year gap in LF banking on Tyrion dying and not an annulment, too. Either one of them dies or they stay married, and either way, the show will get the characters to the same outcome. Considering how ghastly their first wedding was, D&D would probably think a do-over wedding would be more romantic than just deciding to stay married, anyway, so the need to get married again in light of the end of their previous marriage on the show would represent no real obstacle. And if Sansa’s destiny in the books is to end up as a cat lady after Tyrion dies, the show writers will get her there, too.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Eyes High

[anamika]

I am not sure how much we can take the word of God as hints for what he wanted to do, since he tends to obfuscate and straight up lie sometimes about his intentions and writing. For example, he keeps saying that he is still heading for the same ending that he came up with in the early nineties and that ending is Jon-Arya-Tyrion - and at some point it's clear that he did change the ending and at a con he told some Arya fans that he regretted some early foreshadowing in the first book (Possibly the Jon-Arya foreshadowing he put in). So the ending he is heading towards remains fluid depending on his troubles - 5 year gap and timelines - on getting to that ending.

As for GRRM being surprised by SanSan's popularity among women - I think that's a bit of a bluff on his part. In that video, he puts Sandor, Jaime, Theon etc. in the same category as villains who are troubled individuals with dark sides who have done very dark things and is surprised that people ship Sandor with Sansa. In which case, should he not be equally surprised by Jaime/Brienne? Since Brienne is also a good person who deserves so much better than  lying, child murdering, no good Jaime?  He is surprised people like these characters, which...why? Anti-heroes have always been massively popular from the time of Dickens, and are in most cases considered more complex and interesting than the good characters. And it's clear that's where he is going with characters like Jaime and Tyrion. And unlike deformed, noseless Tyrion, Sandor and Jaime are supposed to be hot in the books - which is manna for shippers. There's a reason for why Jonsa is popular - Jon is pretty much the only hot guy with good standing in the GOT universe that Sansa knows. So she just HAS to marry him.

And this is especially hilarious coming from someone who romanticizes Dany/Drogo after writing in the books about Dany crying in pain while Drogo brutally rapes her. Is Drogo supposed to be a good guy?  GRRM's romance is a genre of eighties romance called 'forced seduction' where the man brutalizes the woman and they end up falling in love. Whether it be Dany/Drogo or SanSan. Or even Jaime/Brienne - where all Jaime does when they first meet and travel is just non-stop verbally abuse Brienne until he loses his hand. And then these characters get a redemption arc because of their love for a good woman and the woman falls in love with these characters who abused them and all is well that ends well.

Before the show started and dropped a massive bomb on SanSan, it was the most popular ship in ASoIaF - and there's a reason for that. As GRRM himself says - despite his 'surprise' he was playing with it in the books. And even in book five, Sansa is imagining kisses with the Hound. No one else. It is book canon that Sansa lusts after/likes the Hound. And while book Sansa likes book Tyrion and thinks he is kind, she is repulsed by him. Staying married to him would ultimately be a sad ending for her.

We have also heard from showrunners (Cogman I think?) that GRRM is still undecided on whether to bring back the Hound.  Maybe the Hound is only there to set Sansa on her journey like Dany/Drogo. Maybe the Hound is there only to have Sansa make a hard decision between love and independent control and power for herself. Maybe the Hound dies saving Sansa or Sansa dies in the end.

It's clear that SanSan is now not going to be a thing in the show. Which indicates that this could be the same for Sansa in the books. I don't think Jaime/Brienne is going to end well in the books or the show either. One of them is going to die and it's most likely Jaime.

I think the Hound's journey on the show is now independent of Sansa and is headed for a Cleganebowl that has possibly no connection to Sansa. And from the recent house Lannister video and script, it looks like Dany is indeed the YMBQ. In which case, I think it's probably Arya/the Hound/ Jaime and possibly Dany who will be playing a role taking down Cersei in KL in episode 5 or 6 for next season.

And I think more and more that Sansa's story next season will be tied closely with Tyrion's. As I mentioned earlier, the original outline mentioned that Sansa and Tyrion were the two characters who were members of dubious loyalty to their respective houses. Maybe the final season will see these characters finally side with their families and clash with each other  - as Sansa makes sure that House Stark comes out on top and Tyrion is supposedly betraying everyone for his family and House Lannister.

Edited December 12, 2018 by anamika

[Colorful Mess]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

No bone in this fight but I saw that as surprise that people had cottoned on to the ship after (what he thought was) him being subtle.

(This is the same dude that felt GOT was in the right hands because D & D guessed R+L=J. He clearly underestimates just how clever his readers are - and how much time he's given them to decipher all his clues).

Are we talking about the same video? To me it sounds like the readers jumped on something he didn't intend. I see no coyness here. He just doesnt understand how some women like the bad boy tropes. Which is why I've always felt like in creating Darkstar he was asking those readers, "do you REALLY want child murderers for love interests?"

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

To me it sounds like the readers jumped on something he didn't intend. I see no coyness here. He just doesnt understand how some women like the bad boy tropes. Which is why I've always felt like in creating Darkstar he was asking those readers, "do you REALLY want child murderers for love interests?"

The same. He is (imo) surprised that people cottoned on to it, and even liked it. Wasn't expecting the Hound to be a favorite and/or the ship to be popular. As for not wanting people to ship Sansan?.... Giving Sansa a memory of a kiss that never happened seems counter-intuitive.

Also, I won't describe Theon's arc as a "bad boy" arc by any stretch of imagination. of course, ymmv.

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, ursula said:

The same. He is (imo) surprised that people cottoned on to it, and even liked it. Wasn't expecting the Hound to be a favorite and/or the ship to be popular. As for not wanting people to ship Sansan?.... Giving Sansa a memory of a kiss that never happened seems counter-intuitive.

GRRM is, as has often been noted, a huge fan of Beauty and the Beast as a narrative, and he worked on the cheesy 1980s TV show adaptation of it; and there are all kinds of Beauty and the Beast parallels/imagery built into the Sansa/Hound interactions in the book.  GRRM even said (back before the show was a thing) that Ron Perlman, who played the Beast on the TV show, was who he would cast as the Hound.  So I don't believe for a second that he was surprised by the fan response (whether or not it's going anywhere).

[anamika]

43 minutes ago, SeanC said:

GRRM is, as has often been noted, a huge fan of Beauty and the Beast as a narrative, and he worked on the cheesy 1980s TV show adaptation of it; and there are all kinds of Beauty and the Beast parallels/imagery built into the Sansa/Hound interactions in the book.  GRRM even said (back before the show was a thing) that Ron Perlman, who played the Beast on the TV show, was who he would cast as the Hound.  So I don't believe for a second that he was surprised by the fan response (whether or not it's going anywhere).

Not to mention the art that he commissioned for the 2012 ASoIaF calendar clearly had the Beauty and the Beast imagery for SanSan. The first is from the Calendar that he commissioned, approved and signed for fans and the second from the BATB TV series.

Which art is hanging on his wall at home as pointed out by eagle eyed SanSan shippers!

Courtesy of http://ladycyprus.tumblr.com/post/175830639763/grrm-and-sansan-or-stop-hiding-behind-the-author

And the show had the strongest SanSan scenes in Blackwater - written by GRRM.

And I just remembered that Jon/Ygritte was also pretty much the captive falling in love with the captor, lol! 

I wonder how he is planning on writing Jon/Dany in the books.  I think when they first meet, it will be as enemies. She as the Queen in KL and he as King in the North.

I am pretty damn sure that if the Hound was played by a younger, hotter actor with some burn make up on his face, SanSan would be a very popular ship on GOT with a lot of pissed off shippers angry at D&D for not going there. But Sansa has been shipped more with Jon, Dickon, Gendry, Jaime and freaking Pod on the show than with the Hound. One can see the pattern here.

I also get the feeling that the Hound is going to get paired up with Arya on her adventures next season as fanservice because of how much everyone liked their scenes in season 4 - David Nutter mentioned D&D taking into account what the fans want. I think we will get lots of chicken jokes (I think Maisie made a mention of chicken in her recap video) and Hound and Arya hanging out. Which I am not a fan of either unlike the majority of people who liked them together. Maybe because I am not much of a Hound fan and him and Arya were basically done with each other at the end of season 4 - she left him to die painfully for what he did to Mycah. I would rather Arya have scenes with her family and other important characters like Dany etc. than hang around with the Hound.

Edited December 12, 2018 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

and him and Arya were basically done with each other at the end of season 4 - she left him to die painfully for what he did to Mycah.

Well, the show included enough scenes post season 4 to make it (the reason why Arya left him) much more complex than that. That is precisely why I think D&D will include an Arya-Hound plotline in season 8.

Edited December 12, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[nikma]

Yes. It's clear that Arya wasn't able to kill him and she never hated him.

[WindyNights]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

I am not sure how much we can take the word of God as hints for what he wanted to do, since he tends to obfuscate and straight up lie sometimes about his intentions and writing. For example, he keeps saying that he is still heading for the same ending that he came up with in the early nineties and that ending is Jon-Arya-Tyrion - and at some point it's clear that he did change the ending and at a con he told some Arya fans that he regretted some early foreshadowing in the first book (Possibly the Jon-Arya foreshadowing he put in). So the ending he is heading towards remains fluid depending on his troubles - 5 year gap and timelines - on getting to that ending.

As for GRRM being surprised by SanSan's popularity among women - I think that's a bit of a bluff on his part. In that video, he puts Sandor, Jaime, Theon etc. in the same category as villains who are troubled individuals with dark sides who have done very dark things and is surprised that people ship Sandor with Sansa. In which case, should he not be equally surprised by Jaime/Brienne? Since Brienne is also a good person who deserves so much better than  lying, child murdering, no good Jaime?  He is surprised people like these characters, which...why? Anti-heroes have always been massively popular from the time of Dickens, and are in most cases considered more complex and interesting than the good characters. And it's clear that's where he is going with characters like Jaime and Tyrion. And unlike deformed, noseless Tyrion, Sandor and Jaime are supposed to be hot in the books - which is manna for shippers. There's a reason for why Jonsa is popular - Jon is pretty much the only hot guy with good standing in the GOT universe that Sansa knows. So she just HAS to marry him.

And this is especially hilarious coming from someone who romanticizes Dany/Drogo after writing in the books about Dany crying in pain while Drogo brutally rapes her. Is Drogo supposed to be a good guy?  GRRM's romance is a genre of eighties romance called 'forced seduction' where the man brutalizes the woman and they end up falling in love. Whether it be Dany/Drogo or SanSan. Or even Jaime/Brienne - where all Jaime does when they first meet and travel is just non-stop verbally abuse Brienne until he loses his hand. And then these characters get a redemption arc because of their love for a good woman and the woman falls in love with these characters who abused them and all is well that ends well.

Before the show started and dropped a massive bomb on SanSan, it was the most popular ship in ASoIaF - and there's a reason for that. As GRRM himself says - despite his 'surprise' he was playing with it in the books. And even in book five, Sansa is imagining kisses with the Hound. No one else. It is book canon that Sansa lusts after/likes the Hound. And while book Sansa likes book Tyrion and thinks he is kind, she is repulsed by him. Staying married to him would ultimately be a sad ending for her.

We have also heard from showrunners (Cogman I think?) that GRRM is still undecided on whether to bring back the Hound.  Maybe the Hound is only there to set Sansa on her journey like Dany/Drogo. Maybe the Hound is there only to have Sansa make a hard decision between love and independent control and power for herself. Maybe the Hound dies saving Sansa or Sansa dies in the end.

It's clear that SanSan is now not going to be a thing in the show. Which indicates that this could be the same for Sansa in the books. I don't think Jaime/Brienne is going to end well in the books or the show either. One of them is going to die and it's most likely Jaime.

I think the Hound's journey on the show is now independent of Sansa and is headed for a Cleganebowl that has possibly no connection to Sansa. And from the recent house Lannister video and script, it looks like Dany is indeed the YMBQ. In which case, I think it's probably Arya/the Hound/ Jaime and possibly Dany who will be playing a role taking down Cersei in KL in episode 5 or 6 for next season.

And I think more and more that Sansa's story next season will be tied closely with Tyrion's. As I mentioned earlier, the original outline mentioned that Sansa and Tyrion were the two characters who were members of dubious loyalty to their respective houses. Maybe the final season will see these characters finally side with their families and clash with each other  - as Sansa makes sure that House Stark comes out on top and Tyrion is supposedly betraying everyone for his family and House Lannister.

The Hound's not supposed to be hot. According to GRRM, the side of the Hound's face that's not burned is plain.

------

Fan: Maltaran asked about comparisons of Bretan Braith (from Dying of the Light) to the Hound.

He(GRRM) said yes, they are similar, but Bretan has much more duality in him, as he is handsome on the unburnt side, while Sandor was only average before the burning.

21 hours ago, Eyes High said:

RIP SanSan. As ships go, it had a good run. There’s always fanfic.

Jaime x Brienne probably isn't gonna happen either. Jaime's likely going to die before they ever get a chance at romance.

[Colorful Mess]

I think he might be confused why women like Sandor in a romantic way. Because Sandor is a rude asshole. There are few similarities between Sandor and Vincent. His Beast is an empathetic intellectual who quotes Byron and Shakespeare. This aligns more with the original Beast in La Belle Est Bette who was hideous on the outside, but already nice and a gentleman on the inside. 

Sandor calls Jonquil a cunt (so what does that make Sansa?). Holds a knife to her throat and demands she sing for her life. Later he says he should have fucked  her bloody (they bothered to include that last line in the show). Sansa rewrites everything dark that happens to her. 

The Hound being a brutal killer who has to be turned into a nice dude by Sansa's virtue is exactly what the trope is not supposed to be. 

I agree with him, I am baffled why some female readers go for a worse version of the Beast than the original story or his 80s show. What do they see in this guy?

As for Sandor's future I think he's just figuring out the basics of "doing what is right." His story is more about atonement than "romance." I expect Arya to share more scenes with him, thank god, because I think its a great dynamic. It would be interesting if they meet and the Hound is actually less bloodthirsty than her and reigns her back in.

[Eyes High]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

I think the Hound's journey on the show is now independent of Sansa and is headed for a Cleganebowl that has possibly no connection to Sansa. And from the recent house Lannister video and script, it looks like Dany is indeed the YMBQ. In which case, I think it's probably Arya/the Hound/ Jaime and possibly Dany who will be playing a role taking down Cersei in KL in episode 5 or 6 for next season.

And I think more and more that Sansa's story next season will be tied closely with Tyrion's.

We really have no idea what Sansa does between 8x02, when she's presumably still at Winterfell, and the Dragonpit scene in 8x06. Sophie missed not only all the Winterfell battle stuff and all KL exterior filming stuff but almost all the interior scenes that would have been filmed in March through June (except for whatever she filmed the last week of March and in the middle of April), including this supposedly super-spoilery 8x06 scene Hibberd saw filmed. Maybe Sansa heads to the Vale to wait for everything to blow over, and that's the last we see of her until the finale (apart from a few interior scenes with the Vale lords and Robin that Sophie could have filmed in the fall). Tyrion, Arya, Jon, and Davos, who seem to be in KL when the shit hits the fan in 8x05, don't seem to be as lucky.

Quote

Staying married to him would ultimately be a sad ending for her.

ASOIAF husbands are notoriously shitty (not that the wives are much better), so being married to anyone would be a sad ending for her. Cat Lady Sansa is probably her best bet.

In the show, at least, I don't think Tyrion and Sansa ending up together would be seen as a sad ending for Sansa, depending of course on how it's written. And as for the books...well, we're not likely to find out, are we?

8 hours ago, anamika said:

I wonder how he is planning on writing Jon/Dany in the books.  I think when they first meet, it will be as enemies. She as the Queen in KL and he as King in the North.

Maybe Jon kidnaps and abuses Dany and she falls in love with him. That seems to be GRRM's fictional romance MO. 

Quote

I also get the feeling that the Hound is going to get paired up with Arya on her adventures next season as fanservice because of how much everyone liked their scenes in season 4

I think it's more likely that the Sandor/Arya bonding stuff is setup for Arya giving Sandor mercy after he's mortally wounded by Frankengregor, and it's very sad and we all cry. (Not that that's likely to happen in the books, but I don't think D&D will be able to resist.)

In S8 news, Gwendoline Christie promised that we would all need professional help after the end of GOT. The article quoting her put the premiere date as April 5th, 2019, which is a...Friday. The Sundays in April are the 7th, 14th, 21st, and 28th, so this couldn't be a typo for another date ending in -5. Maybe GOT premieres as early as April 7th? That would be great.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Eyes High

[whateverdgaf]

4 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Jaime x Brienne probably isn't gonna happen either. Jaime's likely going to die before they ever get a chance at romance

They have been setting up this romance since season 2. A great deal of their scenes; Jaime telling Brienne they can't choose who they love, their farewell in season 4, Jaime giving Brienne his sword, has all be confirmed to have romantic subtext by the cast and is building towards something. 

Also, NCW has been very vocal in both his support for the final season (far more than season 7) and for the Brienne/Jaime ship. That in itself suggests a good conclusion for their story. It's not like Jaime is going to die in the first episode, if at all, and his story with Brienne has been a major part of his arc and is hardly going to be pushed aside after all the effort that went into building it up.

Edited December 12, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[anamika]

4 hours ago, WindyNights said:

The Hound's not supposed to be hot. According to GRRM, the side of the Hound's face that's not burned is plain.

Well, a person is not just hot because of their face you know. Yes, the Hound is hideously disfigured on the left side of his face, even worse than the show - hence the comparisons to the beast. But he is a huge (taller than Brienne, maybe 6 feet 8 or 9), heavily muscled man with an aura of danger  around him. Women have variously described why they find the Hound hot on GRRM's blogs and youtube vids on Sansan. Think show Drogo with one side of his face disfigured.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I think it's more likely that the Sandor/Arya bonding stuff is setup for Arya giving Sandor mercy after he's mortally wounded by Frankengregor, and it's very sad and we all cry. (Not that that's likely to happen in the books, but I don't think D&D will be able to resist.)

Yep, I think we are heading for Cleganebowl and a Jaime/Cersei/Arya show down in KL and Arya will end up giving mercy this time around. Since Joe did no KL filming, I am guessing Gendry is either out by this time or still busy making weapons.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Maybe Jon kidnaps and abuses Dany and she falls in love with him. That seems to be GRRM's fictional romance MO. 

lol. Pretty much.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The article quoting her put the premiere date as April 5th, 2019, which is a...Friday. The Sundays in April are the 7th, 14th, 21st, and 28th, so this couldn't be a typo for another date ending in -5. Maybe GOT premieres as early as April 7th? That would be great.

I thought from a few clues FF got before that the date was set for April 28th....

[Eyes High]

41 minutes ago, anamika said:

Yep, I think we are heading for Cleganebowl and a Jaime/Cersei/Arya show down in KL and Arya will end up giving mercy this time around. Since Joe did no KL filming, I am guessing Gendry is either out by this time or still busy making weapons.

The reason I thought Gendry makes it is that he filmed in Seville when they did the Dragonpit scene from 8x06, but if Friki is right and he didn't film anything for the show, then there's nothing that indicates he survives to the final episode. It does seem odd that Kit, Maisie, and Liam did extensive KL exterior filming without Joe if Gendry is still in fact alive by 8x05. Wouldn't he logically be there with them?

Quote

I thought from a few clues FF got before that the date was set for April 28th....

As far as I can tell, April 28th was a guess based on what was known about TD and BLL's episode counts. We now know that TD is doing a double episode airing on premiere night, meaning that the GOT premiere date could be moved up to April 21st.

There was that guy who posted a screenshot a few months ago of his HBO programming schedule showing the premiere date as April 21st, 2019, which is my guess for a premiere date. Any sooner would be nice, but I'm not betting on it.

It is strange that BLL is supposedly premiering in March and we have no trailer, no teaser, and not even a premiere date. The first TD new footage teaser came out in August. By that score, based on a March premiere date, we should have a BLL teaser in October, but nothing. They pretty much have to air BLL in that March/April slot, though, or else they're going to miss awards season. With that said, if BLL won't qualify for the limited series category and will have to compete with GOT in the main drama categories, maybe BLL has been pushed to later in the year to clear the Emmy field for GOT's last season? If that's the case, there's no reason why GOT can't premiere as early as April 7th.

[Stella]

11 hours ago, anamika said:

I am pretty damn sure that if the Hound was played by a younger, hotter actor with some burn make up on his face, SanSan would be a very popular ship on GOT

Certainly true.

And I am pretty damn sure that if SanSan was happening in the books then they would have cast a "younger, hotter actor" who was more in line with the actual age of book Sandor. This could easily have been done. GRRM was involved with the casting, commented positively on the Stark girl castings, etc. He clearly would have told the D's that it was important to his story for the actor who plays Sandor be in his mid 20's to 30. (Just like the book character.) To me the fact that they cast Rory McCann, a man well into his 40's is clear proof that SanSan was never happening and never meant to happen. 

3 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Sansa rewrites everything dark that happens to her. 

Sansa like many abused children rewrites memories, suppresses memories etc. as a means of coping with the abuse. It is disgusting that people want to romanticize this child abuse.

3 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

The Hound being a brutal killer who has to be turned into a nice dude by Sansa's virtue is exactly what the trope is not supposed to be. 

Amen.

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

They have been setting up this romance since season 2. A great deal of their scenes; Jaime telling Brienne they can't choose who they love, their farewell in season 4, Jaime giving Brienne his sword, has all be confirmed to have romantic subtext by the cast and is building towards something. 

Also, NCW has been very vocal in both his support for the final season (far more than season 7) and for the Brienne/Jaime ship. That in itself suggests a good conclusion for their story. It's not like Jaime is going to die in the first episode, if at all, and his story with Brienne has been a major part of his arc and is hardly going to be pushed aside after all the effort that went into building it up.

Sometimes things are teased but it never happens. Part of the tragedy could be that this had a chance but it never got to happen. 

Like the most that can be done is Jaime and Brienne bang once and Jaime leaves Brienne with a baby but considering how GRRM seems intent on wiping Tywin's line out, I doubt it. The satisfying conclusion is probably Jaime dying in Brienne's arms as they have an intimate conversation one last time 

[whateverdgaf]

4 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Sometimes things are teased but it never happens. Part of the tragedy could be that this had a chance but it never got to happen. 

Like the most that can be done is Jaime and Brienne bang once and Jaime leaves Brienne with a baby but considering how GRRM seems intent on wiping Tywin's line out, I doubt it. The satisfying conclusion is probably Jaime dying in Brienne's arms as they have an intimate conversation one last time 

I don't believe GRRM is intent on wiping out Tywin's line specifically, this actually goes against a very common theme throughout the show of not being punished for the father's sins.

I think we will see a fair bit of Jaime and Brienne together next season. Their actors have been seen together a fair few times during filming. With so much of their story to conclude, I wouldn't be surprised if nearly the majority of their scenes will be together. After all, Jaime needs a scene partner with Bronn gone, he is at odds with Tyrion and Jaime will be isolated up North, surrounded by enemies. It will only be natural he will cleave to Brienne. 

[Minneapple]

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I agree with him, I am baffled why some female readers go for a worse version of the Beast than the original story or his 80s show. What do they see in this guy?

Take a look at every "bad boy" that has been loved by fangirls. The bad boys rape and kill people, but hey, as long as they're hot and have a semi-tragic background, it's okay. Damon Salvatore. Chuck Bass. Spike. I remember JK Rowling gently trying to explain to her young female readers that Draco Malfoy was not the same thing as Tom Felton. I really do not like to ship shame or bash people for the ships they like, but this is always the trope, and the part of fandom, that raises my hackles. 

 

2 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

They have been setting up this romance since season 2. A great deal of their scenes; Jaime telling Brienne they can't choose who they love, their farewell in season 4, Jaime giving Brienne his sword, has all be confirmed to have romantic subtext by the cast and is building towards something. 

Also, NCW has been very vocal in both his support for the final season (far more than season 7) and for the Brienne/Jaime ship. That in itself suggests a good conclusion for their story. It's not like Jaime is going to die in the first episode, if at all, and his story with Brienne has been a major part of his arc and is hardly going to be pushed aside after all the effort that went into building it up.

I don't think it will be "pushed aside," in fact I hope and think they will interact a lot next season. But I would not put money on Jaime and Brienne having some kind of happily ever after, because I would also not put money on Jaime living. Perhaps they will admit to some kind of feelings for each other and then Jaime will die tragically after saving Brienne or something like that. Cheesy but an appropriate "redemptive" ending for Jaime. 

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Take a look at every "bad boy" that has been loved by fangirls. The bad boys rape and kill people, but hey, as long as they're hot and have a semi-tragic background, it's okay. Damon Salvatore. Chuck Bass. Spike.

Logan Echolls from Veronica Mars, too. 

It's funny, because in each of those four cases, the same damn thing happened: 

The bad boy is hot, charismatic, charming, sexually ambiguous, snarky, and oh so very damaged with a penchant for irresponsible living at best, violence at worst. Bad boy has a tragic past involving abuse and/or some beautiful girl breaking his heart. Bad boy falls passionately, maybe even obsessively in love with the heroine. The heroine eventually falls in love with him, even preferring the bad boy over her sweet, kind, far less problematic other love interest (if any). Bad boy gets some sort of half-assed redemption arc so that he's worthy of heroine. Romance ensues! Fin.

In three of these four cases, the heroine and the bad boy were endgame! And of course the fandoms for these respective shows favoured this pairing above others. The heart wants what it wants, I guess. Doesn't matter what the bad boy did--attempted rape, murder, assault, whatever--even what he did to the heroine--assault, abuse, attempted rape, etc.--it's all good. 

So when SanSan and Jaime/Brienne fans expect the Sandor/Sansa and Jaime/Brienne relationships to follow the same trajectory as in these other pairings, they're just anticipating the same storyline beats that so many of these romances tend to follow. Sandor and Jaime's terrible personalities and past horrible actions--child murder, attempted child murder, assault, etc.--really don't factor into it one way or another. To be fair, Jaime fits the Logan/Chuck/Damon/Spike type much better than Sandor, who is neither hot nor charming. 

GRRM, who seems to have gleaned his understanding of fictional romance from 80s romance novels as pointed out upthread, is thoroughly versed in these sorts of romance beats. He knows full well what he's doing with Jaime/Brienne and Sandor/Sansa, so I hope he's ready for the eventual wrath of shippers when they realize that neither pairing is going to be endgame.

I do agree with @Colorful Mess that as much as he eggs them on with his comments and his ship teasing, GRRM seems somewhat contemptuous of the female fans who go gaga for his fictional bad boys as romance material. (Barristan grumping in his ADWD POV that young girls go for worthless hot guys instead of nice, boring young men could be GRRM speaking.) That may well tie into how he resolves SanSan in the books. ASOIAF Sansa getting a rude wakeup call about the UnKiss never happening could be his answer to female fans who romanticize his horrible fictional men.

Quote

I remember JK Rowling gently trying to explain to her young female readers that Draco Malfoy was not the same thing as Tom Felton. I really do not like to ship shame or bash people for the ships they like, but this is always the trope, and the part of fandom, that raises my hackles. 

Cassandra Clare turned her Draco/Ginny fanfic into a successful book series, a movie, and a TV show, so do not underestimate the appeal. Fandom is weird.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

In case anyone missed it:

And from a e,Rddittor  who translated.

Traslation of the FK´s vid.
The frozen wolf that appears represents the fall of Winterfell after the attack of the army of the dead. In addition, also appear unsullied frozen which make us suppose that a part of the army of Daeneryas will die facing the KN´s army. In addition, the twins also appear, where it seems to form the dragonglass in the teaser. According to FK, there are people who defend what will be in this place where the final battle between the living and the dead will take place. Others argue that the NK wants to reach God's eye to be able to remove the fragment of dragonglass that he has in his chest.Therefore, in this area where the symbolic image of the fight between cold and fire appears. He speculates about the possibility of the deaths of the dragons when the dragon Targaryen appear frozen. But it's just a guess, it's not leak!
Another theory that he raises in the video: after the destruction of KL, Jon and Dany would move to Dragonstone leaving the government of the seven kingdoms to the Council of which I have spoken previously in anothers posts. Finally, FK refers to Maisie's latest statements about her character, suggesting again that it is very possible that Arya is Cersei's murderer.
That's all mates. It is not much since HBO is not giving us any information in this clip. And as I always tell you, I apologize for the errors that the text may have.

[Colorful Mess]

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Take a look at every "bad boy" that has been loved by fangirls. The bad boys rape and kill people, but hey, as long as they're hot and have a semi-tragic background, it's okay. Damon Salvatore. Chuck Bass. Spike. I remember JK Rowling gently trying to explain to her young female readers that Draco Malfoy was not the same thing as Tom Felton. I really do not like to ship shame or bash people for the ships they like, but this is always the trope, and the part of fandom, that raises my hackles. 

That's definitely true. People can ship whatever they want. But for some to claim that GRRM ships it too, when his interviews suggest otherwise, makes me raise an eyebrow. I think he did an interesting experiment with Darkstar. He created a perfect Boba Fett syndrome character but didn't give him a sympathetic backstory like he gave Theon or Sandor. For the most part the reaction was negative toward this character and people saw it as a failed creation. It really illustrated how people will excuse a lot of bad behavior, the more we know about them as characters. I feel like he's warning us that too much sympathy clouds judgment. 

[Wouter]

19 hours ago, Eyes High said:

 

As for @Wouter raising the possibility of an annulment of Sansa and Tyrion’s marriage in the books, I think that there’s no way. GRRM originally planned them to remain married for five years at least, so he was never planning on an annulment, either.

The five year gap does not imply it can’t be annulled afterwards. If Jon and Dany reign at the very end, they can easily arrange an annulment if this would be needed. 

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

That's definitely true. People can ship whatever they want. But for some to claim that GRRM ships it too, when his interviews suggest otherwise, makes me raise an eyebrow. I think he did an interesting experiment with Darkstar. He created a perfect Boba Fett syndrome character but didn't give him a sympathetic backstory like he gave Theon or Sandor. For the most part the reaction was negative toward this character and people saw it as a failed creation. It really illustrated how people will excuse a lot of bad behavior, the more we know about them as characters. I feel like he's warning us that too much sympathy clouds judgment. 

Darkstar wasn't created as a counterpoint to Theon or the Hound, he was, by GRRM's own admission, an attempt at replicating Oberyn's popularity.