S05.E13: The Soviet Division

[UncleChuck]

Are Philip and Elizabeth the ONLY capable Soviet spies in America?  Doesn't Gabriel know any operatives in Oklahoma, or Kansas, or Mississippi so that P/E can stay in Washington?  Someone had to be on the ground in OK there to provide Elizabeth with that pick-up truck--someone had to get to Kansas before them to learn about Agricorp and Gorp Guy and Lotus 123 girl--and any trainee spy could have gone to that field in Mississippi to dig up a stalk of wheat.   Wouldn't it have been easier for the Center to have illegals already living in or near Topeka Kansas taking up the seduction of the targets? No wonder the old Soviet Union failed--they seemed always to choose the most convoluted and difficult method of solving any task.

 

Another point...Why do so many posters refer to Paige (and maybe Henry) as 2nd generation "illegals"?  Paige may someday become a 2nd generation spy, or 2nd generation operative, but she can NEVER be 2nd generation "Illegal" because she is, and always will be a native born American Citizen, so she will never be "illegal".

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, UncleChuck said:

Another point...Why do so many posters refer to Paige (and maybe Henry) as 2nd generation "illegals"?  Paige may someday become a 2nd generation spy, or 2nd generation operative, but she can NEVER be 2nd generation "Illegal" because she is, and always will be a native born American Citizen, so she will never be "illegal".

It is a pretty inaccurate name. But I think it's because even though they wouldn't be Illegals, it's the second generation program that's part of the Illegals program. Really they're just "second generation" but it's important that the first generation were Illegals.

12 hours ago, UncleChuck said:

Doesn't Gabriel know any operatives in Oklahoma, or Kansas, or Mississippi so that P/E can stay in Washington? 

I don't think they're supposed to have Illegals in those places. There aren't that many of them so it's natural they're mostly in DC and maybe NY. They don't have people scattered all over the US on the odd chance something's happening in Mississippi the one time.

[kokapetl]

15 hours ago, UncleChuck said:

Good idea.  If only they knew of some 17 year old girl who could blend in better with Kimmie and her friends...oh, wait.

Kimmie is cool, Paige is a nerd. I mean, look at Paige's hair. 

Edited June 17, 2017 by Kokapetl

[Sarah 103]

20 hours ago, UncleChuck said:

Are Philip and Elizabeth the ONLY capable Soviet spies in America?  Doesn't Gabriel know any operatives in Oklahoma, or Kansas, or Mississippi so that P/E can stay in Washington? 

 

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think they're supposed to have Illegals in those places. There aren't that many of them so it's natural they're mostly in DC and maybe NY. They don't have people scattered all over the US on the odd chance something's happening in Mississippi the one time.

There's enough of the military industrial complex/aerospace in the southwest, there would have been Soviet operatives/illegals somewhere in that region. If something came up in the midwest that needed them, the Centre should have sent one of their southwest based operatives. 

[UncleChuck]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

There's enough of the military industrial complex/aerospace in the southwest, there would have been Soviet operatives/illegals somewhere in that region

There are also major military installations scattered all over those areas.  Oklahoma has Fort Sill, and Fort Hood in Texas not that far away, Kansas has Fort Riley, and also in the 80s Wichita, KS was part of Boeing's major aeronautics manufacturing.  Kansas has Fort Leavenworth--home of the Army's Command and Staff College--THE premier school for Army Colonels planning to one day be Generals.  Fort Benning in Georgia would be closer to Mississippi than P/E.

I must believe that the U.S.S.R. had plenty of operatives planted close to all of those military bases with thousands of military and their spouses living on and nearby those bases.  I'll also bet that the CIA had plenty of boots on the ground with access to major Soviet military installations.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, UncleChuck said:

I must believe that the U.S.S.R. had plenty of operatives planted close to all of those military bases with thousands of military and their spouses living on and nearby those bases.  I'll also bet that the CIA had plenty of boots on the ground with access to major Soviet military installations.

Well, now we're getting into the central disbelief of the show, which is that two Directorate S agents (as opposed to any other kind of operative) would be doing any of this, really. Based on the pattern of the show when they want this sort of thing done--a fake persona having an affair with somebody--they send a Directorate S agent and there are far fewer of them than there are every other kind of operative they would have. I mean, on the face of it of course it would make much more sense to put somebody else on this. Particularly somebody who would actually live in the area so they didn't have to carve out time out of their primary fake identity to travel for this other one.

[Sarah 103]

On June 18, 2017 at 10:39 AM, sistermagpie said:

I mean, on the face of it of course it would make much more sense to put somebody else on this. Particularly somebody who would actually live in the area so they didn't have to carve out time out of their primary fake identity to travel for this other one.

I would have thought with all of the high profile military industrial/aerospace in the south and midwest, the KGB would have had at least one pair of  Directorate S agents somewhere in that region (midwest or southwest). 

[White Sheep]

A very thin ending to a very boing season.  The reason for staying in the USA. Was so thin. Than again it shows how much different P&E are from coming here in 1965 and how much different they are from the start of the show.  

[CASinCHI]

How will it all end?

Philip and Elizabeth will return to the USSR, however they'll make it look like they died (in a car wreck or something) so that Henry will never know the truth.  Paige will stay behind and keep up the family business.  My 2¢ adjusted for inflation.

[Pike Ludwell]

So much filler this season it was ridiculous. The extended wedding scene in an earlier episode takes the cake for one of the most blatant, boring pieces of filler ever. Then there was the song sequence at the very beginning of the next episode.  I was hoping they'd quietly, elegantly dropped the ridiculous Kimmie subplot, but they brought it back in force. The scene was even more absurd than ever. Now the 45-year-old man is not just the heartthrob of Kimmie, but apparently of any teenage girl that sees him! And now we see the Kimmie thing will be a big deal next season too. Totally ridiculous. It's like they think the worst ideas are the best.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, riverclown said:

The extended wedding scene in an earlier episode takes the cake for one of the most blatant, boring pieces of filler ever.

Whereas I saw it as beautiful, riveting, and important character development. But mileage varies.

 

1 hour ago, riverclown said:

the 45-year-old man is not just the heartthrob of Kimmie, but apparently of any teenage girl that sees him!

Well, the girls don't know he's 45, and in my own personal experience, teenage girls can find attractive older men extremely hot (just like teenage boys do with women). And Phillip ain't too shabby. 

Edited June 23, 2017 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

34 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Whereas I saw it as beautiful, riveting, and important character development. But mileage varies.

 

Gotta agree there. Of anything I'd want to cut from the season, it definitely wouldn't have been that. I thought that was great.

34 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Well, the girls don't know he's 45, and in my own personal experience, teenage girls can find attractive older men extremely hot (just like teenage boys do with women). And Phillip ain't too shabby. 

I'd also say that he's not supposed to be catnip to any teen girl at all. Kimmy's friends are a very specific subset who would have a certain idea about him from her, and their relationship with her would also color how they react to them. So their reaction to him might not even always be primarily about him.

[Searchqueen]

I know that when I saw Kimmie on my TV screen this season I audibly groaned. I hated that storyline.

Regardless of whether or not I think teenagers will keep a secret (sometimes yes, sometimes no) or whether or not they think Jim is a skeevy old guy (some will think that, some won't), my problem with this storyline is that if Kimmie's dad is a CIA muckety-muck, there is NO WAY he leaves his troubled teenage daughter alone at home for hours at a time with his super secret briefcase. Not to mention that his domestic situation (single dad, troubled teenage daughter) would be a red flag at work and they would be watching his house and/or daughter's activities or taking precautions of some sort. But many things on this show cause me to suspend my disbelief and just go with it.

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, Searchqueen said:

Not to mention that his domestic situation (single dad, troubled teenage daughter) would be a red flag at work and they would be watching his house and/or daughter's activities or taking precautions of some sort. But many things on this show cause me to suspend my disbelief and just go with it.

Just a small point, but the briefcase isn't super secret. When at home it's probably got nothing secret in it at all as far as the dad knows. Also he's not a single dad, he's married, and probably doesn't consider his daughter troubled in the least. Ironically, it seems he's repaired the distance in their relationship in the past year as well, probably with some assist from Philip.

But still, he's CIA so him being extra paranoid would make sense. I have no idea if kids whose dads work for the CIA would have people watching her or the house so I can't say whether that would be a thing or not.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Just a small point, but the briefcase isn't super secret. When at home it's probably got nothing secret in it at all as far as the dad knows. Also he's not a single dad, he's married, and probably doesn't consider his daughter troubled in the least. Ironically, it seems he's repaired the distance in their relationship in the past year as well, probably with some assist from Philip.

But still, he's CIA so him being extra paranoid would make sense. I have no idea if kids whose dads work for the CIA would have people watching her or the house so I can't say whether that would be a thing or not.

Do you remember why she's alone so much, given that she has a stepmother? I didn't remember that detail until I read Searchqueen's post. They must have said something, since the logistics of being alone with Kimmie would be more complicated with a stepmother around.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Do you remember why she's alone so much, given that she has a stepmother? I didn't remember that detail until I read Searchqueen's post. They must have said something, since the logistics of being alone with Kimmie would be more complicated with a stepmother around.

Good question. I think she maybe said something about her stepmother being a socialite or something so her schedule was as busy as her father's.  She was around long enough to have the garden destroyed. :-( I guess she was helpful in making Kimmy feel replaced with her father but not there to be a mother. Win-win for the KGB!

[Searchqueen]

Quote

Good question. I think she maybe said something about her stepmother being a socialite or something so her schedule was as busy as her father's.  She was around long enough to have the garden destroyed. :-( I guess she was helpful in making Kimmy feel replaced with her father but not there to be a mother. Win-win for the KGB!

See, this is what happens when I rely on my memory and don't fact-check. I didn't remember seeing a mom-figure, and Kimmie is alone so much it made me think she only had a dad. Doesn't invalidate my point about she and her dad needing some supervision. 

Even if there is nothing secret in the briefcase, it is still something he carries into and out of his office daily, I would presume. Dad is way too trusting and Kimmie clearly loves to break the rules. It should be harder for Phil to manage the regular tape-swaps since she is unpredictable and he can't assume he will continue to have access.

But I'm hoping they don't make this a job for pitiful Paige. That would be so ridiculous.

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, Searchqueen said:

See, this is what happens when I rely on my memory and don't fact-check. I didn't remember seeing a mom-figure, and Kimmie is alone so much it made me think she only had a dad. Doesn't invalidate my point about she and her dad needing some supervision. 

Even if there is nothing secret in the briefcase, it is still something he carries into and out of his office daily, I would presume. Dad is way too trusting and Kimmie clearly loves to break the rules. It should be harder for Phil to manage the regular tape-swaps since she is unpredictable and he can't assume he will continue to have access.

But I'm hoping they don't make this a job for pitiful Paige. That would be so ridiculous.

Nope, your point is (and was) valid. You just got me thinking about where the step-mother was - and how she hadn't even been mentioned.

[dubbel zout]

23 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think she maybe said something about her stepmother being a socialite or something so her schedule was as busy as her father's. 

Kimmie's in high school. She doesn't need a babysitter.

It is a bit beyond belief that Philip hasn't shown up at the house when Kimmie's dad and/or stepmom is home unexpectedly, but that's not really was this show does.

[sistermagpie]

23 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Kimmie's in high school. She doesn't need a babysitter.

I agree. But I think the question was more why her stepmother seemed to never be home. Though I think it also helps that Jim doesn't actually come over that often so they'd have time in advance to know when neither parent would be home. That one time her parents did come home and he had to run out.

[Nash]

Well that was fun. 

Stuff has happened but if you pressed me for a detailed report I'd struggle. 

In fact I've broken my habit and read very little of the previous comments. Not a good sign.

so.....to show willing.....the Kimmy plotline is imho stupid beyond; all it needs is for either parent to come home and there's Jim, some good weed, a teenage girl and a phone call to 911 right there. 

the suicide plot - confrontational and it worked because P went off mission. Tuan won't do well - highly committed but I think he'll find himself on Border Watch on the Chinese Border. 

And Stan is getting played. Haven't a clue by who and why but he may have had a lightbulb moment. 

Overall.....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Roseanna]

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 6:17 AM, SlovakPrincess said:

I had no idea Elizabeth loved her house and clothes so much, lol.  She really looked like she was going to lose it as she thought about leaving everything behind.  

Thank you for telling me this. 

When Elizabeth was looking at her closet, I thought that she noticed that something wasn't in the same place where she had put it and began to suspect that KGB, not trusting them any more, had made a search in their house and put listening devices there. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎6‎.‎6‎.‎2017 at 6:34 AM, Milburn Stone said:

I liked the episode, and the season. But I'm glad I came here to understand the significance of the tape, and why Philip wanted to throw it in the river, because I just wasn't getting it. I think what stood in the way of my getting it was that I never felt that Philip really want to go back to Russia. For Philip to want to throw the tape in the river, he needs to see the tape as the obstacle in the way of all his hopes and dreams of returning to Russia. But he's so conflicted about the morality of the work Russia makes him do--and he's so conflicted about the burdens being placed on Paige--and he's so conflicted about having to dash Henry's dreams--and he has so many qualms about making his children settle in Russia--that it would have made just as much sense for him to jump up and down in gleeful excitement when he heard the tape, and to run as fast he could to play it for Claudia: "Oh boy," he'd be saying to himself,  "this gives me the perfect excuse for us to have to stay in America!!!"
 

Instead of staying in the US versus returning to Russia, it's primarily about leaving the spy work and and living a normal life versus continuing spying with the false identity and living with constant fear of being caught. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 5:42 PM, sistermagpie said:

So clearly we had a Philip/Alexei parallel. Not because P&E were also planning to kidnap their children to another country as a surprise (I have a feeling Elizabeth was wrong once again that Paige would just be okay with it and help with Henry)--since that never actually happened and wasn't even quite in motion yet. But Alexei chose to stay in the US while his family went to the USSR and that was something that got under Philip's skin, that they were breaking up the family. Presumably that was partly why he yelled at Henry that the family sticks together. It was a little like his Bible ripping.

But with Alexei we actually have some  backstory to explain his choice. Beyond just the obvious danger he would be in (and frankly I'm surprised that his wife and son wouldn't ultimately see the truth of his position and stay with him in the US) if he tried to go back--his father was sent to a prison camp. This is obviously something that shaped his whole life.

I think it should have been Alexei who should have understood how his wife and son feel. He complained constantly how everything was bad in the Soviet Union, but was never interested in how Pasha had in the school. If he had showed them to Jevgeniä and Pasha that they were important to him and even when there were now difficulties, the family would win the them together, maybe the result would have been different.

While understanding Alexei's past, he is one of those people to whom his ideals are so important that they neglect their family - thus a good character in the contect of the show.

[Roseanna]

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 8:20 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

One thing that I didn't understand is why P & E kept saying to Tuan that Pasha could have died.  Well, unless there is some kind of policy that prohibits the killing of a minor in KGB spy work, then, so what.  Why would two spies be more concerned with Pasha dying than their mission?  Yes, I know that they explained to Tuan that if he died, then the mother could become so distraught that she would be rendered useless, due to her grief, but, that's not really what I picked up on.  To me, it seemed like they really were concerned over the boy and had genuine feelings for his parents, should they lose him.  I suppose that is what Tuan referred to as bourgeoisie.  ? ( Though, that seems to refer to property than affection for family. )  I also thought that P & E stressing concern that Alexi's family had to be destroyed was odd.  The important thing is the mission.  Why this big focus on the family's welfare?  It just seems odd to me.  Like Claudia said....I can tell The Center, but, it won't matter.  I guess P & E think that with their clout, they get to have some people given special treatment. 

 

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 10:40 PM, MissBluxom said:

Elizabeth could have told Tuan that he is too young to appreciate what it's like to have a family and one of your children gets into real life threatening danger.

I don't think he would have really appreciated just how serious that could be. But at least he might get an inkling that what he did could be considered very wrong by adults and "the Center" just might view it much more seriously than he did. At least he might then give it a second thought and realize he didn't really appreciate the nature of the harm he did.

 

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 10:48 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I've tried to consider all options. I just don't see why The Center would be worried of how extreme you have to be to get a mission accomplished.  And that sacrificing some lives is a part of the job.  Why is Pasha's life more valuable than other lives that have been lost, like Hans? I mean, he was doing everything right, but, for the cause, he had to go. Collateral damage. They've always been fine with it before.  I don't buy this change in them regarding Pasha.   But, with Pasha, they really seemed to reguard his life with much more value.  I'm not saying that it was wrong, but, that it just wasn't characteristic of them and not what I would expect. Showing so much concern about Pasha to Tuan, just seemed out of character.  Hard for me swallow.  

 

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 11:03 PM, Chaos Theory said:

Hans would have died anyway.  He is a special case.  They didn't just kill him to be mean.  They killed him because the alternative was actually worse.  

P&E dont just kill people because it's the path of least resistance.  Even with the woman in Fo Mail Robots Dream of Electrical Sheep which was Elizabeth killing a civilian who had nothing to do with nothing she did it because she felt she had no other choice.

i am not saying she is right.  I am saying Tuan went too quickly for the easiest answer where P&E were trying to talk both parents into going voluntarily.  

I agree with Chaos Theory that Tuan went too quickly for the easiest answer. He also decided it on his own, without telling P&E who as senior agents should have made the decision, not him.

Also, Tuan underplayed the risk of Pasha dying. What if something had happened to prevent his parents to come home at the time they usually did? Or what if either of them hadn't gone at once to Pasha's room?

Pasha also kept saying that if the plan fails, then there would be a new one.  But would Pasha's mother returmed home without his son? Maybe, maybe not. After their child dies, some parents find comfort by clinging together  whereas in other cases their marriage falls apart.

Although P&E may value Pasha's life because his situation was the same as Paige and Henry would face in the Soviet Uniona and didn't like Tuan's cold-heartness, their estimation about the situation was right,  

[Roseanna]

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 6:30 AM, Erin9 said:

That was a very sweet final scene between Paige and Philip- him apologizing to her that things weren't different for her growing up. 

To me they were empty words. One can apologize only for something that one would have done otherwise but didn't.

But the fact is that Paige was born only beacuse P&E were Russian spies in the US. Thus, the alternative is that she wouldn't have born at all.  

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

To me they were empty words. One can apologize only for something that one would have done otherwise but didn't.

But the fact is that Paige was born only beacuse P&E were Russian spies in the US. Thus, the alternative is that she wouldn't have born at all.  

I thought the alternative was basically that Paige would have had different parents. Basically he was saying she deserved parents who weren't Soviet spies. Which is true, even if it's pointless. In a way it's an interesting line because it goes directly against how Philip described his mindset growing up. When Paige asked if he liked where he lived Philip says that's not something he would ever have considered, whether or not he "liked" the place where he lived. Iow, he would never look at the circumstances of his life and imagined a different life that he would like better or worse. Here he was doing that, imagining a life for Paige (not for himself) where she had a different life with different parents.

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Instead of staying in the US versus returning to Russia, it's primarily about leaving the spy work and and living a normal life versus continuing spying with the false identity and living with constant fear of being caught. 

I agree. That seems to always be what Philip's prioritizing. Heh--again, I'm remembering that conversation with Paige where he says the place he lives isn't about what he likes (even if there are things he likes where he lives) but protecting his family and keeping them together.

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I thought the alternative was basically that Paige would have had different parents. Basically he was saying she deserved parents who weren't Soviet spies. Which is true, even if it's pointless. In a way it's an interesting line because it goes directly against how Philip described his mindset growing up. When Paige asked if he liked where he lived Philip says that's not something he would ever have considered, whether or not he "liked" the place where he lived. Iow, he would never look at the circumstances of his life and imagined a different life that he would like better or worse. Here he was doing that, imagining a life for Paige (not for himself) where she had a different life with different parents.

I agree. That seems to always be what Philip's prioritizing. Heh--again, I'm remembering that conversation with Paige where he says the place he lives isn't about what he likes (even if there are things he likes where he lives) but protecting his family and keeping them together.

But Philip isn't protecting his family.

He's allowing Paige to get on the same horrifying Merry Go Round he's been on for most of his life.  He's not deceiving himself that she will never have to kill someone, or do a honey trap, or repeatedly expose herself to a prison sentence for spying or sabotage.  More, even though the show ignores Henry most of the time, he know his other child will be next.  He's condemning them to a life of lies and deceit and treason against their country.

He's allowing their lives to be taken over, their choices and futures in the hands of Center and whatever handlers they end up obeying.  What's more, it's worse for them than it's been for him, since they have absolutely no sentimental memories of Russia, and certainly no loyalty to the Soviet Union.  They will be slaves, and forced to betray their country, the one they know, the neighbors and friends they have, that are real, and not just marks like Martha and Young Hee and all of the others.

Most parents want happiness and security and health for their children, and their children's children.  However, because he "loves" Elizabeth so much, he's sacrificing his own children, because that's what makes Elizabeth happy. 

Philip's an ass.  At least Elizabeth still believes in this shit.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

But Philip isn't protecting his family.

He's protecting them from his pov, trying to keep them all together. He's the person he is, who is different than an American growing up in the 21st century, and different from the person anyone else might think he is or should be. 

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

He's protecting them from his pov, trying to keep them all together. He's the person he is, who is different than an American growing up in the 21st century, and different from the person anyone else might think he is or should be. 

I don't believe that, he knows what he's doing to them, he knows it better than anyone.

He's sacrificing his kids for one thing, Elizabeth.

ETA

That's probably why their love story no longer moves me at all.  I used to care about them, especially Philip, but no longer.  The cost is too high, and I can't forgive a parent who would do that to his children, just to keep his spouse.  It makes me sick.  It makes Philip unforgivable to me.  Hopefully he regains his humanity and starts to care about something other than Elizabeth by the end of this.

I'm less angry at Elizabeth, oddly enough, because as I said before, at least she believes in "the cause."

Edited November 7, 2017 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

But Philip isn't protecting his family.

He's allowing Paige to get on the same horrifying Merry Go Round he's been on for most of his life.  He's not deceiving himself that she will never have to kill someone, or do a honey trap, or repeatedly expose herself to a prison sentence for spying or sabotage.  More, even though the show ignores Henry most of the time, he know his other child will be next.  He's condemning them to a life of lies and deceit and treason against their country.

He's allowing their lives to be taken over, their choices and futures in the hands of Center and whatever handlers they end up obeying.  What's more, it's worse for them than it's been for him, since they have absolutely no sentimental memories of Russia, and certainly no loyalty to the Soviet Union.  They will be slaves, and forced to betray their country, the one they know, the neighbors and friends they have, that are real, and not just marks like Martha and Young Hee and all of the others.

How can the Centre "take" Paige and Henry if they are themselves willing? Whuch they hardly are.

The only method to get them consent would blackmail them, but that wouldn't cause good results. The whole plan is crazy and can't succeed.  

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I thought the alternative was basically that Paige would have had different parents. Basically he was saying she deserved parents who weren't Soviet spies. Which is true, even if it's pointless. In a way it's an interesting line because it goes directly against how Philip described his mindset growing up. When Paige asked if he liked where he lived Philip says that's not something he would ever have considered, whether or not he "liked" the place where he lived. Iow, he would never look at the circumstances of his life and imagined a different life that he would like better or worse. Here he was doing that, imagining a life for Paige (not for himself) where she had a different life with different parents.

How could Paige have had different parents? Only when P&E made love in some particular moment, the result was Paige. 

The options are only the real choices P&E could have made. And the truth is, there isn't a choice that didn't include risks for their children. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

How could Paige have had different parents? Only when P&E made love in some particular moment, the result was Paige. 

She couldn't. It's not a practical alternative. Things are what they are--as long as Paige Jennings the person exists, she's the daughter of Soviet spies. If Philip had made other choices, Paige wouldn't exist. But I think it still means something to say to Paige that he acknowledges what she doesn't have that others do. At least that's how I took it. 

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

The only method to get them consent would blackmail them, but that wouldn't cause good results. The whole plan is crazy and can't succeed.  

Yeah, it's funny because the point of the 2nd gen program seems to be that the Centre thinks they've got these loyal agents, and the agents have kids, and so they can have the kids too. Just "recruit them" like it's a simple thing. They're not thinking through the many reasons it's not that simple.

But if they start thinking about things like blackmail--like threatening their parents or whatever--then they're no longer 2nd gen Illegals as they envisioned them anyway. They're just people who are being blackmailed into working for the Centre. American people who are being blackmailed. They've lost everything they think makes them such great candidates and made themselves enemies of the whole family.

Edited November 7, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Blackmailed or coerced if they bring Philip or both Elizabeth and Philip back to the Soviet Union.  

But yes, I completely agree, it shows, to me anyway, how out of touch and apparently desperate Center is to have those second generation spies.  Even though they lost two spies already to murder, and the potential second generation spies, the sister, also dead, and the first target, also dead. 

Still, the persist in this pipe dream.  It's as if all their hopes are pinned on this one goal, which is why I said earlier that while Kimmie's operation may be important, it takes a back seat to this one (for them.)  Also, Kimmie's can't go on much longer anyway, college is looming, and sooner or later she will fall in love and not have time from Philip.  She's already closer to her dad. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎31‎.‎5‎.‎2017 at 6:05 PM, Umbelina said:

So, now Center has Tuan's report on them as well, especially Philip's refusal to listen to either Tuan or Elizabeth and marching straight to Pasha's in front of an FBI watcher, essentially blowing their cover if that FBI guy has a brain in his head.

I'm glad Alexi isn't going back to the Soviet Union.  The KGB will now just be able to blackmail his mother with the son only, not threaten two lives to keep her in line in her new spy job.

I don't hate Tuan.  He was right, they were wrong.  To accomplish what is an important mission for his bosses, the KGB, he alone did what it would take.  He did exactly what (former) Elizabeth would have done if she wasn't trying to pretend to be all caring now to impress Philip, or, more charitably, to sooth her stressed out "I don't wanna be a spy anymore" hubby. 

Tuan showed himself illoyal in two ways. First, as I said before, he acted on his own, although he had no right to do so, as P&E were senior and more experienced.  Second, they didn't report about his conscious breaking of rules, but he did report about their "mistake" (which was due his own willful action). 

I don't believe he will become a good agent. He is too smug and don't listen to advice.    

[Roseanna]

On ‎1‎.‎6‎.‎2017 at 11:23 PM, Umbelina said:

Tuan is a soldier in a war, just like Elizabeth has been until she watched Philip go completely nuts, even wanting to break down a back door to save one person, and realized he is more of a danger to her on missions than a help with this mental/emotional breakdown we've watched all season long.

Tuan, and I believe Elizabeth, if Philip wasn't there watching her, would be perfectly willing to sacrifice dozens to accomplish their goals of saving millions of people from the USA aggression, bombs, wheat poisoning (eye-roll) and chemical and biological weapons.

We kill kids all the time with our drones and the most expensive weaponry in the world.  Collateral damage. 

Tuan was right.  I'm glad he reported them.  So what if we saw one kid to tear at our heartstrings pretend to kill himself after being expertly instructed by Tuan?  Because we "know" him?  So that makes it bad, but hundreds of kids are killed all over the world every day.  That's reality, and probably the only realistic plot they had all season (aside from the whole ridiculous turn Pasha's mom into a super spy that can get a DEPUTY CHIEF OF STATION to spill secrets while fucking.  Or you know, blackmail him because of it.)

Because first humans lived in small communities, it's natural for us to feel empathy people we know. We learn to feel empathy for people that we don't personally know. To many people, it's people who live in the same country, to a few it's the whole world. 

Although there are situations where one must sacrifice lives of some in order to save lives of many, Tuan's complete lack of empathy showed that people like him are never going to create an utopia.    

[Umbelina]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Tuan showed himself illoyal in two ways. First, as I said before, he acted on his own, although he had no right to do so, as P&E were senior and more experienced.  Second, they didn't report about his conscious breaking of rules, but he did report about their "mistake" (which was due his own willful action). 

I don't believe he will become a good agent. He is too smug and don't listen to advice.    

Only because Philip and Elizabeth were uninterested in completing the mission, or doing what it would take to complete the mission.

Bottom line?  The mission succeeded because of Tuan, and it would have failed without him. 

What advice did they give him?  They pretty much left him alone.  I think he would have listened and been thrilled to learn from them, but they were terrible mission partners to him, distracted by their personal lives, and personal reactions to the marks.  That may sound cozy and kind of wonderful to us, because we are not the KGB authorities, and we are not spies.  To Center?  I doubt it sounds cool at all, if anything, worrisome, and more evidence that Philip has lost it, and may be taking Elizabeth down with him.

He probably reported his own rule breaking, and he certainly reported their unhelpfulness, and especially the fact that because of Philip and his emotions?  All of them were nearly burned.

[Roseanna]

21 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Only because Philip and Elizabeth were uninterested in completing the mission, or doing what it would take to complete the mission.

Bottom line?  The mission succeeded because of Tuan, and it would have failed without him. 

What advice did they give him?  They pretty much left him alone.  I think he would have listened and been thrilled to learn from them, but they were terrible mission partners to him, distracted by their personal lives, and personal reactions to the marks.  That may sound cozy and kind of wonderful to us, because we are not the KGB authorities, and we are not spies.  To Center?  I doubt it sounds cool at all, if anything, worrisome, and more evidence that Philip has lost it, and may be taking Elizabeth down with him.

He probably reported his own rule breaking, and he certainly reported their unhelpfulness, and especially the fact that because of Philip and his emotions?  All of them were nearly burned.

Actually, neither the protagonists nor we know whether Tuan's plan had succeeded if Pasha's parents had returned home without finding P&E and Pasha waiting on their doorstep. Would Pasha's mother gone dorectly to his room? If she had stayed some time downstairs, it could have been to late to save Pasha.

As far as I know, the Soviets have never favored, or indeed accepted, individual initiative like that of Tuan. That he now succeeded, it's no defence in their eyes. In their minds, Tuan is a maverick who would got in his mind any crazy plan and act on his own and without ever pondering if his deed helps or damages the great picture.

Of course, that's was also one of the general weaknesses of the Soviets. They could offer millions of their soldiers civilians without ever pondering if it was necessary or not, or how it influenced on their great utopian project.

Tuan indeed said that he had also reported about his own rule breaking (it's called "self criticism" by the Communists). But although he has experienced the war, he hasn't been a soldier and completely lacks understanding that the soldiers' chief motivation isn't patriotism or ideology but solidarity towards their comrades. As an informer Tuan can't expect that his fellow-spies would help him, or at least so much that they would endanger themselves, if he is in danger. 

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Tuan indeed said that he had also reported about his own rule breaking (it's called "self criticism" by the Communists). But although he has experienced the war, he hasn't been a soldier and completely lacks understanding that the soldiers' chief motivation isn't patriotism or ideology but solidarity towards their comrades. As an informer Tuan can't expect that his fellow-spies would help him, or at least so much that they would endanger themselves, if he is in danger. 

I wonder if Tuan reported his own rule-breaking as further evidence of Philip and Elizabeth's rule-breaking since they covered for him.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I wonder if Tuan reported his own rule-breaking as further evidence of Philip and Elizabeth's rule-breaking since they covered for him.

If he did, according to his bosses?  He would be correct in doing so.

I completely understand disagreeing about Tuan.  He was a poorly defined character, as were all of the supporting cast members this year.   Each of them required a lot of "reading between the lines" since the writers didn't bother to make them "whole" and mostly just used them as plot points to generate "good" Phil and Liz scenes.  So, my "reading between the lines" could be completely off, and yours could be completely on. 

Still, I stand by how I see Tuan. 

I just have a different take on him.  I see someone completely task oriented on his first big assignment, wanting to do well.  His actions could have been refined and probably would have been if Philip or Elizabeth bothered to talk to, train, or listen to him.  Still, it worked, and often when remote bosses look at reports, that bottom line is what really counts.  Did it work, did it achieve what we asked you to do?  

I also see Tuan as further helping Philip dig his own grave with Center, but who knows?  I barely recognized the writers this year, I may be giving them too much credit.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

If he did, according to his bosses?  He would be correct in doing so.

I completely understand disagreeing about Tuan.  He was a poorly defined character, as were all of the supporting cast members this year.   Each of them required a lot of "reading between the lines" since the writers didn't bother to make them "whole" and mostly just used them as plot points to generate "good" Phil and Liz scenes.  So, my "reading between the lines" could be completely off, and yours could be completely on. 

Still, I stand by how I see Tuan. 

I just have a different take on him.  I see someone completely task oriented on his first big assignment, wanting to do well.  His actions could have been refined and probably would have been if Philip or Elizabeth bothered to talk to, train, or listen to him.  Still, it worked, and often when remote bosses look at reports, that bottom line is what really counts.  Did it work, did it achieve what we asked you to do?  

I also see Tuan as further helping Philip dig his own grave with Center, but who knows?  I barely recognized the writers this year, I may be giving them too much credit.

Also young Chinese Red Guardist were "task-orinented" but what did they create? Nothing, they only destroyed.  Tuan is just like them. He never talks what his positive ideals are. He is just a robot.  

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

If he did, according to his bosses?  He would be correct in doing so.

 

They'd think he was right to report his own rule-breaking for any reason, sure. I was speaking more to Roseanna's point about how those actions would be viewed by people working with him. It makes him doubly untrustworthy to work with.

This conversation actually made me think that the time Philip was angriest at Elizabeth was when he found out she'd been reporting on him, her partner. She never verbally regretted that decision, but it ultimately led to her making the opposite choice.

Edited November 10, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

10 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Also young Chinese Red Guardist were "task-orinented" but what did they create? Nothing, they only destroyed.  Tuan is just like them. He never talks what his positive ideals are. He is just a robot.  

Because the writers didn't bother to let him.  It's my biggest complaint about last season.

In the past, the supporting characters were fairly "whole."  We saw Oleg, and Nina and Gaad and Tatiana and Vlad and the others at work, at home, we got to know them.  This season they just threw them in as plot points.

We didn't SEE Tuan do anything with Pasha, we only heard about it when he TOLD our main characters in order to move them on the chessboard.  We didn't see the bad-teeth lady fall in love, or with her son, or at her job, we only heard what she TOLD Stan.  We have a bunch of characters suddenly on screen, but nothing but them TELLING a main character something, including Oleg's parents, we only know them by what they TELL Oleg.

It leads to different interpretations based on various life experiences of the viewers, or expectations, or prejudices, etc.

That's the real reason why this season blew chunks compared to other seasons.  It's not that the new characters didn't have potential, it's that the writers didn't bother.

Hint to show writers, don't dump more than half your supporting cast, separate main characters by distance so there is almost no interaction, and then throw in a bunch of new characters only to be used as plot points to drive story for the main characters.

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

They'd think he was right to report his own rule-breaking for any reason, sure. I was speaking more to Roseanna's point about how those actions would be viewed by people working with him. It makes him doubly untrustworthy to work with.

This conversation actually made me think that the time Philip was angriest at Elizabeth was when he found out she'd been reporting on him, her partner. She never verbally regretted that decision, but it ultimately led to her making the opposite choice.

How would they know?  It's not like Philip or Elizabeth are going to meet with his future partners in a task set by Center.

Aside from that?  Many would agree with his actions, including the Elizabeth we knew when this show started, who reported Philip.

[sistermagpie]

24 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

How would they know?  It's not like Philip or Elizabeth are going to meet with his future partners in a task set by Center.

Aside from that?  Many would agree with his actions, including the Elizabeth we knew when this show started, who reported Philip.

They wouldn't necessarily know. I was just speaking in general to Roseanna's point. If they didn't know he was informing on him obviously they wouldn't have any reaction to being informed on. (Elizabeth and Philip do know, in this case, as it happens--maybe he'll continue to be vocal about it, we don't know.) The Elizabeth we knew when this show started would of course have totally have agreed with him. Philip's finding out about her trashing him, and his reaction to that, and the fallout, and what she eventually did made up a lot of the plot of S1 (and may figure into the climax for all we know). I assume Elizabeth was thinking a lot about all those years in the US when she gave Tuan her advice at the end.

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Because the writers didn't bother to let him.  It's my biggest complaint about last season.

In the past, the supporting characters were fairly "whole."  We saw Oleg, and Nina and Gaad and Tatiana and Vlad and the others at work, at home, we got to know them.  This season they just threw them in as plot points.

We didn't SEE Tuan do anything with Pasha, we only heard about it when he TOLD our main characters in order to move them on the chessboard.  We didn't see the bad-teeth lady fall in love, or with her son, or at her job, we only heard what she TOLD Stan.  We have a bunch of characters suddenly on screen, but nothing but them TELLING a main character something, including Oleg's parents, we only know them by what they TELL Oleg.

It leads to different interpretations based on various life experiences of the viewers, or expectations, or prejudices, etc.

That's the real reason why this season blew chunks compared to other seasons.  It's not that the new characters didn't have potential, it's that the writers didn't bother.

 Actually we saw Tuan to get to know Pasha and we saw both couples dine together with their sons. In this episode we saw Tuan to admit to Pasha that his suicide attempt could have gone wrong - so it seemed that Tuan had had doubts or even regretted his plan. Either Tuan was only acting that he was sorry or Pasha's answer that the plan worked made him again sure that he had been right.

If we had seen more of the boys together, Tuan pretending be Pasha's friend but provoking other boys to bully him, Pasha would have pitied more and Tuan condemned more.  

Although it's a famous rule "show, not tell", that can't applied strictly. If we had been shown Tuan doing something and then telling about it to P&E, that would have been needless repetition unless Tuan actually had done something else than he told to P&E.

In this show the most important matter wasn't Tuan but how P&E reacted to him which showed how they had changed. And it's just the same with Stan, Adelholt with her new Russian agent. 

That a minor charcater could be fully characterized although presented onlty with P&E has been shown in many cases, like Gregory, Young Hee and her husband, Patty and her husband or in this season the Nazi lady.

For this reason I think that the fault isn't with the new characters but rather a too slow rythm and that there wasn't enough interesting development about P&E and Stan. Also, Oleg's reserach about food was too late connected with Kansas story.          

[Umbelina]

You mention past seasons, which is exactly my point.  They were good, they didn't uses characters only as plot points, we came to care about them as individuals as well, and have understanding for them.  It doesn't take much, but it DOES take doing it, and it's worth it in my opinion.

The joint family dinners we us seeing Elizabeth and Philip.  We don't know why Tuan is working with the KGB, we didn't see him visit his sick foster sibling, we didn't see flashbacks of his childhood, his family murdered, how he lived as a child alone in war, we don't know anything about him really.

With past seasons?  We got to know them, and to me, that's the difference between character based realistic writing that is good, and plot point characters only there to move "our heroes" around.  It's terrible writing and the sad thing is, we know they could do better, and they got an entire extra season and wasted it.

Quote

In this show the most important matter wasn't Tuan but how P&E reacted to him which showed how they had changed. And it's just the same with Stan, Adelholt with her new Russian agent. 

This is exactly where we fundamentally disagree.

In the past we came to care about the supporting cast, and it made the entire experience more whole, more complete, and more compelling.  This season?  Not at all.  You just defined "plot point" writing, and I really hate it from writers we know could do better.

Other characters didn't "take away" from the Jenning's storyline in past season, they enriched it.  We watched suitcase girl work alone, fall in love, become a real person before she was stuffed into the suitcase.  We watched Vlad talk alone to Nina, not about work, but about his feelings.  We watched Oleg and Nina grow into a relationship, and Oleg and Tatiana carefully caring about each other.  We saw Stan and Martha, and Gaad at work and at home without Philip.  All of them, even Gregory was understandable because they showed where he came from and who he was. 

They used to do that.  Then they dumped 1/2 the cast and brought in people that could have been equally interesting, but instead?  Didn't bother to make them whole.  They only existed for Stan, Aderholt, Philip, Elizabeth to generate action on their stories.

I miss all those developed characters!  Even Arkady!  We got an entire season of telling not showing, very sad.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Umbelina

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, Umbelina, I agree. This is what happened to the last 2 seasons of Rectify.  They wanted to move towards a resolution and decided to push some well-known, trusted and loved characters to the background to make room for the "march towards the finale" ... but after several seasons of twists and turns and characters who turned out to be untrustworthy, even dangerous, the new characters remained "step-children" -- introduced late and opaque (because they were somehow fully formed when we met). 

I'm not sure if we're supposed to trust Tuan ... I didn't, and now do, but know -- too well -- I could be wrong.  With both Claudia and Gabriel we saw reasons to trust and reasons to fear (they had the power).  "Conflicts" were not the reasons to mistrust, approval was not a reason to trust.  P&E may loathe Claudia, yet she's their contact.  It's a job and there's work to be done.   I actually trust Claudia at this point.  William looked like a "weak link" for quite a while until his secret anguish (which Tuan echoes) was revealed.   

Stan's new girlfriend is gorgeous -- reminiscent of Kathleen Turner -- but I don't care about her or their relationship.   Too fast, too slick.  Yes, I don't trust her either, but I don't care very much.  (I liked the ex-Mrs. Stan -- Smart, funny, ambitous and reaching for happiness).  

Must mention poor cabbage patch kid Paige ... such a dull girl. 

eta:  They (P&E) have killed too many people and too many "our team" players have died ... after Young Hee, I pity anyone "befriended" by Elizabeth (those who came before didn't fare well either ... see also Suitcase girl) 

Edited November 12, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[Umbelina]

Yeah, I can't see this resolving the way the "real" illegals issues were resolved.  They were merely deported/exchanged, but they didn't murder any people, and many of those people murdered by the Jennings were completely innocent of any wrong doing even if you only looked at it from the Soviet point of view.  This season alone?  At least the scientist developing a better wheat, and the husband of the coerced Nazi raped teenager that had to watch her entire family  murdered and then bury them between her rapes.  Also?  Her.

This entire season's take away seemed to be "spying sucks."  Which?  We already knew.  Everyone's burned out.  Oh, and Stan's mystery woman that never came to anything, and supposedly might next year. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

We don't know why Tuan is working with the KGB, we didn't see him visit his sick foster sibling, we didn't see flashbacks of his childhood, his family murdered, how he lived as a child alone in war, we don't know anything about him really.

 

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, I can't see this resolving the way the "real" illegals issues were resolved.  They were merely deported/exchanged, but they didn't murder any people, and many of those people murdered by the Jennings were completely innocent of any wrong doing even if you only looked at it from the Soviet point of view.  

I was going to say that I wouldn't care for Tuan even if his foster family and past was showed. But thinking again, it might really have given the show something extra and just in the central question of this question. For wasn't Tuan's family who was killed by the Americans probably innocent (or at least the small children if the parents and older children were helping Vietcong)?

Two questions: Is it wrong only when "they" murder innocents that belong to "us" but is it also wrong when "we" do it to innocents who belong to "them"? And in the contrary, if you refuse to do anything wrong, do you actually allow "greater bad" to be done?  

[Roseanna]

Continuing: this same question also applies to the Soviets, although to them the crux of the matter is different as terror againts the own citizens who were political opponents or "class enemies" were accepted already by Lenin and when Stalin's crimes were condemned in 1956, it meant only faithful Stalinists and the top of the army, not even those Communists who belong to the opposition, not to speak of others.

The collabotor woman showed this hypocisy: Claudia and P&E condemned her because she killed "Soviet people" for the Nazis, but as we know, Gabriel has killed his own comreades, i.e. Soviet people, for his own government and lives free and retired. Of course, Gabriel was only a small fish, but nobody who made decisions was condemned (Beria was executed but for others reasons).

(BTV, I find Gabriel's background unlikely: operation officers didn't execute people but others did it, and anyway Gabriel was propably already abroad in 1937-8.)