S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Actually, no, I'm wrong. I double checked the wiki it's in Wichita! Whoops. For some reason I thought it was listed on SuperWiki at one point in Lawrence. Well, regardless Wichita is still 3 hrs from the bunker.

Good.  You saved me the trouble of deciding, LOL.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Good.  You saved me the trouble of deciding, LOL.

It really should have been in Lawrence though for the lulz

 

So it's 5 hrs from the bunker to Jody's. So it was a 10 hours round trip from the bunker to Jody's then another 3 hours to Wichita. Although the bunker is kind of on the way to Wichita so I guess they could have just dropped off Mary and Lady SheDeadNow at the bunker but Ketch still would have found them and he could still get into the bunker. Either way Dean being with Mary made sense.

Edited May 20, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Perhaps the leg injury was an attempt to make the fight between Ketch and Dean later more credible? Because, really, a healthy Dean man-a-mano with Ketch, Dean wins. Hands down. 

After this Season? I considered it a miracle that he was able to hold his own somewhat. Ketch has been established as a gifted fighter/killer and Season 12-Dean has been the opposite so IMO if they wanted to make it equal, they would have given Ketch the leg injury.

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Dean wasn't a perfect "father" but nobody is.  Dean also had to go where his dad told him.  He was still a kid. So, no, he wasn't going to be perfect, but it doesn't negate the fact that too much parental ability was put on his shoulders at too young an age.

 

 

I am sure there was plenty of discussion regarding that episode on this forum too (Just My Imagination) so I'm not going to go into particulars. Just suffice it to say that, for me, that episode was written to take a hatchet to previous show Canon that Dean was very self sacrificing and took good care of Sam. Yes, part of the episode I was laughing hysterically but most of it I was fuming. In addition, that was one of the too numerous episodes for me where the guest of the week (Sully) is written tons of dialogue praising hero Sam to the point it was, IMO, even more over the top than the Sam speech written into 22. Meanwhile, Deans backstory was retconned in an unfavorable way again. JMI is NOT one of my favorite episodes.

I actually feel the moving of Sam into the role of the lead Winchester began in earnest last season under unofficial showrunner Dabb ( Carver was busy trying to get his new show going) and kicked into overdrive this season under official showrunner Dabb.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

After this Season? I considered it a miracle that he was able to hold his own somewhat. Ketch has been established as a gifted fighter/killer and Season 12-Dean has been the opposite so IMO if they wanted to make it equal, they would have given Ketch the leg injury.

This. I was surprised they let Dean win the actual fight. But even though they let Dean win the fight, they let a defeated Ketch pull a gun necessitating Mommy having to save him. At least I did get to see an injured Dean give Ketch a good beat down. That was fun.

[Binns]

9 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

This ^ in a nutshell has been my issue with season 12.  Sam and Dean are the reason we watch.  They are the bread and butter.  They don't have to be in every scene of course, but they need to be involved and connected to whatever is at the forefront of the ongoing storyline.  Too much of A does this, meanwhile back the ranch B does that.  It's been an issue with both Cas and Crowley off doing their own thing or gone for weeks without explanation.

This is exactly why I wasn't super sad to see Crowley and to a lesser extent Cas go (if they are truly gone). I watch for the brothers and prefer if the storylines are theirs with a revolving supporting cast. 

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, Binns said:

I watch for the brothers and prefer if the storylines are theirs with a revolving supporting cast. 

I think the vast majority of fans think like this but it's just my opinion. I wish the writers could figure out this simple concept. It can be done effectively and still give the Js their time off.

[DeeDee79]

14 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

This. I was surprised they let Dean win the actual fight. But even though they let Dean win the fight, they let a defeated Ketch pull a gun necessitating Mommy having to save him. At least I did get to see an injured Dean give Ketch a good beat down. That was fun.

I saw Ketch punking out and pulling out his gun because Dean was beating his ass even with a bum leg. I didn't see Dean as needing to be saved but more as Mary getting hers also for what he put her through. But MMV.

[Geordiegirl1967]

19 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I think the vast majority of fans think like this but it's just my opinion. I wish the writers could figure out this simple concept. It can be done effectively and still give the Js their time off.

I  totally agree. There are many ways to achieve this while still giving the Js some time off, but this season they have not got this balance right. The brothers bond has been (until the last 2 eps) woefully underwritten and under attended. Instead the writers have been far keener on writing for Mary, Ketch, Mitch, Crowley, Cas, Kelly etc etc. 

Even though in ep22 they had the boys separated for a while (Sam on the raid, Dean on Mary duty) the focus of the ep was still personal to them, and about them. The scene Dean had with his mum in her head, and their conversation after Ketch was killed were both about the bond between Dean and Sam, their lives, their family - even though Sam wasn't there. Which shows that it is possible to do that. Its like they remembered only just as they came to write the last 2 eps that the show is Sam and Dean's story.

[Geordiegirl1967]

32 minutes ago, Binns said:

This is exactly why I wasn't super sad to see Crowley and to a lesser extent Cas go (if they are truly gone). I watch for the brothers and prefer if the storylines are theirs with a revolving supporting cast. 

I have mixed feelings about the last ep deaths. I was sad to lose Crowley and Cas because they have been good characters who have added to the richness of the show. But I also wasn't sad, because I actually think their stories were done. I am less optimistic than you though that their absence will mean more focus on Sam and Dean. Rather I expect we will see some more characters appearing e.g. the Nephilim, Lucifer maybe Bobby and Rufus who will take their place as the people in the scenes Dean and Sam aren't in. But I think they will be a more interesting diversion than Cas and Crowley have been in recent seasons. Crowley sitting on his throne in that dreadfully naff Hell HQ set shouting at underlings was getting very old. And Cas endlessly making stupid mistakes then making up for then by making more stupid mistakes, while the writers cycle through various ways of either keeping him away from the boys or curtailing his powers or both so that he doesn't suck all the jeopardy in their hunts was also getting very repetitive IMO.

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I. Instead the writers have been far keener on writing for Mary, Ketch, Mitch, Crowley, Cas, Kelly etc etc. 

This is one of my major gripes with this season.

5 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Even though in ep22 they had the boys separated for a while (Sam on the raid, Dean on Mary duty) the focus of the ep was still personal to them, and about them. The scene Dean had with his mum in her head, and their conversation after Ketch was killed were both about the bond between Dean and Sam, their lives, their family - even though Sam wasn't there. Which shows that it is possible to do that. Its like they remembered only just as they came to write the last 2 eps that the show is Sam and Dean's story.

Ditto. There were things I really didn't like about the episode but it did show you can write for the brothers without them being joined at the hip.

[Geordiegirl1967]

9 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I'd suggest Dean is a born leader, and Sam more the follower.  No matter the showrunner or writer - this has pretty much remained the same since day one.  We can't all be leaders. As Crowley would say - "It's math".   I'm a follower.  Nothin' wrong with that. 

I think that is true when it is Sam and Dean on their own. Sam definitely looks to Dean to call the shots. 

But in the hunting world they are both highly respected and I believe many hunters would follow either of them and that both brothers are capable of fulfilling a leadership role for others. That is what we saw in this ep. I don't think it was meant to signify any change in the leader role when it is just the 2 of them. That will stay as Dean.

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I have mixed feelings about the last ep deaths. I was sad to lose Crowley and Cas because they have been good characters who have added to the richness of the show. But I also wasn't sad, because I actually think their stories were done. I am less optimistic than you though that their absence will mean more focus on Sam and Dean. Rather I expect we will see some more characters appearing e.g. the Nephilim, Lucifer maybe Bobby and Rufus who will take their place as the people in the scenes Dean and Sam aren't in. But I think they will be a more interesting diversion than Cas and Crowley have been in recent seasons. Crowley sitting on his throne in that dreadfully naff Hell HQ set shouting at underlings was getting very old. And Cas endlessly making stupid mistakes then making up for then by making more stupid mistakes, while the writers cycle through various ways of either keeping him away from the boys or curtailing his powers or both so that he doesn't suck all the jeopardy in their hunts was also getting very repetitive IMO.

According to Jared's slip at JIBCON Cas isn't gone.

[Binns]

6 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

My number one rule of thumb is to never listen to what Dabb has to say.  I swear he doesn't watch his own show.    With that being said, I don't think we're ever going to agree on some of these things.  We just have completely different perspectives.  And it's not even the usual Sam vs. Dean stuff, because I am a Dean girl and I found Dean's part in the episode to be exactly what I'd been hoping for, and what had been missing from a good many episodes this season.  

ITA and I am also a total Deangirl. I found his speech to Mary to be perfect. For me, Dean has an almost pathological way of framing his life so that everything leads back to Sam- take care of Sam, is he safe, is he fed, is he sleeping well, is he happy. His world basically revolves around Sam. So when he's in that much pain because he feels he failed Sam and thus hurt him, it's terrible to see- Sam's pain means Dean's in pain. I definitely think some writers are better at showing this than others and in a lot of cases can make their relationship less...fraught. But here it was, to me, spot-on charactization. I'd venture a guess that Dean has completely compartmentalized and walled off his time in Hell to the point that he rarely thinks about it because he's so much more invested for lack of a better word in Sam's time in Hell. Do I wish the writers would remember it for him? Sure. But to me it's not OOC for him to gloss over it or not mention it.  Their relationship is unhealthy to be sure. But more unhealthy for Dean. And I adore that singleminded determination in him. It's like a touchstone. 

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I think that is true when it is Sam and Dean on their own. Sam definitely looks to Dean to call the shots. 

 

Then why is Sam formulating all the plans now. Every episodes Dean is saying something like " what's the plan" or so what do you want to do" I agree Dean used to be the leader. Dabb has spent pretty much his entire tenure as both unofficial and official showrunner flipping the dynamic. Sam is now the leader. (and the researcher, and the killer of all monsters, and the....sorry, back to my corner)

[Idahoforspn]

13 minutes ago, Binns said:

But to me it's not OOC for him to gloss over it or not mention it.  Their relationship is unhealthy to be sure. But more unhealthy for Dean.

I agree it wasn't OOC. I thought it was a heart rending speech and Jensen nailed it. I do wish the writers would quit making everything Dean end up being everything Sam. You would think after twelve years they could let the character grow a little. That said, I thought the speech was the best scene in the whole episode and am not particularly complaining about the content.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Binns]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

I agree it wasn't OOC. I thought it was a heart wrenching speech and Jensen nailed it. I do wish the writers would quit making everything Dean end up being everything Sam. You would think after twelve years they could let the character grow a little. That said, I thought the speech was the best scene in the whole episode and am not particularly complaining about the content.

Yeah, I mean, if we follow the parenting role to its natural conclusion Sam should be ready to launch here. Dean should want that to happen, too. And that would free up Dean to be the BAMF we all know him to be.  I'm also like some of you convinced they gave him that leg injury to give Ketch a fighting chance. 

[SueB]

14 minutes ago, Binns said:

Yeah, I mean, if we follow the parenting role to its natural conclusion Sam should be ready to launch here. Dean should want that to happen, too. And that would free up Dean to be the BAMF we all know him to be.  I'm also like some of you convinced they gave him that leg injury to give Ketch a fighting chance. 

A couple of comments on the Ketch fight:
- WHAT. AN. IDIOT.  Dude could have slit Dean Winchester's throat, grabbed Mary and ran. But NO. He had to prove he was the better fighter.  Even though his FIRST move was to smash a foot into Dean's injured knee. 
- Fighting Dean rather than flat-out killing him IS totally within Ketch's pyscho personality.  I think he wanted to put a beat-down on Dean since he met him.  More importantly, I think he wanted to impress his brainwashed gal-pal (thinking she was still brainwashed).
- That front door is damn squeaky, how did Lady Toni NOT see Ketch coming.  Her first instinct should have been to get Dean awake to help.  The way her throat was slit, it implies Ketch caught her unawares. Maybe she was staring into Dean or Mary's face -- we had that one moment where she appeared shocked that Mary was crying.  There were slight tears on Dean's eyes when woken.  Perhaps she was absorbed by looking at his face.  IDK... it just seems Lady Toni went down without a fight.
- That was a brutal fight sequence.  Count on Jensen to have a complicated stunt fight.  David did very well as well.  One of the things Josh Whedon tried to do on Buffy was to have Buffy use whatever handy "weapon" she could find.  I see that in Dean too.  So, I loved how the table leg became an important weapon in that fight.  
- Ketch did get in one decent psychological jab when he said Mary never talked about Dean (while smarmily implying he was intimate with her). But Ketch didn't know that those words would no longer have an impact on Dean -- he and Mary had reached their "moment" and that would was already on the way to healing.
- How much did I love Dean calling Ketch stupid.  Drugged, gimpy and Dean is still confident as all get out.  Such a BadAss.
- I agree, Ketch pulling a gun meant he LOST the fight.  Punk.

As I mentioned on Thursday, I love that Dean owned the "killer" title at that moment.  As he told Crowley two years ago, he kills for a reason.  Not for pleasure.  Ketch needed to go, and so Mom got the "honors" but Dean was right by her side.  

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

A couple of comments on the Ketch fight:
- WHAT. AN. IDIOT.  Dude could have slit Dean Winchester's throat, grabbed Mary and ran. But NO. He had to prove he was the better fighter.  Even though his FIRST move was to smash a foot into Dean's injured knee. 
- Fighting Dean rather than flat-out killing him IS totally within Ketch's pyscho personality.  I think he wanted to put a beat-down on Dean since he met him.  More importantly, I think he wanted to impress his brainwashed gal-pal (thinking she was still brainwashed).
- That front door is damn squeaky, how did Lady Toni NOT see Ketch coming.  Her first instinct should have been to get Dean awake to help.  The way her throat was slit, it implies Ketch caught her unawares. Maybe she was staring into Dean or Mary's face -- we had that one moment where she appeared shocked that Mary was crying.  There were slight tears on Dean's eyes when woken.  Perhaps she was absorbed by looking at his face.  IDK... it just seems Lady Toni went down without a fight.
- That was a brutal fight sequence.  Count on Jensen to have a complicated stunt fight.  David did very well as well.  One of the things Josh Whedon tried to do on Buffy was to have Buffy use whatever handy "weapon" she could find.  I see that in Dean too.  So, I loved how the table leg became an important weapon in that fight.  
- Ketch did get in one decent psychological jab when he said Mary never talked about Dean (while smarmily implying he was intimate with her). But Ketch didn't know that those words would no longer have an impact on Dean -- he and Mary had reached their "moment" and that would was already on the way to healing.
- How much did I love Dean calling Ketch stupid.  Drugged, gimpy and Dean is still confident as all get out.  Such a BadAss.
- I agree, Ketch pulling a gun meant he LOST the fight.  Punk.

As I mentioned on Thursday, I love that Dean owned the "killer" title at that moment.  As he told Crowley two years ago, he kills for a reason.  Not for pleasure.  Ketch needed to go, and so Mom got the "honors" but Dean was right by her side.  

I can support all that!

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Binns said:

ITA and I am also a total Deangirl. I found his speech to Mary to be perfect. For me, Dean has an almost pathological way of framing his life so that everything leads back to Sam- take care of Sam, is he safe, is he fed, is he sleeping well, is he happy. His world basically revolves around Sam. So when he's in that much pain because he feels he failed Sam and thus hurt him, it's terrible to see- Sam's pain means Dean's in pain. I definitely think some writers are better at showing this than others and in a lot of cases can make their relationship less...fraught. But here it was, to me, spot-on charactization. I'd venture a guess that Dean has completely compartmentalized and walled off his time in Hell to the point that he rarely thinks about it because he's so much more invested for lack of a better word in Sam's time in Hell. Do I wish the writers would remember it for him? Sure. But to me it's not OOC for him to gloss over it or not mention it.  Their relationship is unhealthy to be sure. But more unhealthy for Dean. And I adore that singleminded determination in him. It's like a touchstone. 

So, so true!

[catrox14]

Okay so I was looking at those big triangle spike things in the AU

and they look like GIANT ANGEL BLADES. What the hell??

source. SuperWiki

source: Winchester Family Business

Edited May 21, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Its the same way Demon Blood didn't actually make Sam an abomination.

I very much disagree Sam did have a choice in what he was.  It's like a child of a serial killer.  They might be tainted with those genes but that doesn't mean that person will automatically grow up to be one. 

According to Cas, and all the other angels (and demons and other monsters and even other hunters when they found out) it was the demon blood that made Sam an abomination.  So, it's not the same thing as the child of serial killer.  Not at all, imo.

[Binns]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Okay so I was looking at those big triangle spike things in the AU

and they look like GIANT ANGEL BLADES. What the hell??

source. SuperWiki

source: Winchester Family Business

Ooooohh...it's been killing me trying to figure them out. I thought "church steeples" when I first saw them but that doesn't make a lot of sense. Things are clearly very strange there as compared to original recipe universe- the demons are not ones we've seen before. i wonder if the piles of dust are meant to be piles of ashes (like human remains)?

[flyinghigh]

9 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

When the show first began, Sam was THE lead. Dean was basically the sidekick. Dean ended up being very popular so Jensen was made co-lead beginning season two. With Gamble, Carver, and especially with Dabb, it seems they are trying to go back to the season one roles. They seem to think, IMO, that Sam is the main star and not a co-lead.  They just don't know how to execute this on screen so it works for the fans. For example, under Carver, the not looking for Dean was the mature thing and I think Carver really thought the Sam/Amelia story was going to be the popular storyline. They needed to get rid of Dean for a while to set it up so they sent him to purgatory. Big surprise for them was the not looking for Dean was detested, Amelia was a flop and Purgatory was a hit. We still lost purgatory way to soon but I think Carver learned a bit of a lesson and started to balance things more.  And now we have Dabb who doesn't seem to be learning. Dabb is stillbtrying to give us hero Sam can do it all moments and to move Dean back into more of the sidekick role.  But the execution, like we saw this week, fails. IMO, Dabb just doesnt understand the mindset of the fans and how the writing will be received. They THINK they are making Sam look good but it ends up being over the top IMO and turns some fans off. If you have to have Dean and multiple guest stars multiple times TELL us Sam is a hero and Sam is smart and Sam is whatever, there is something wrong with the writing. I personally think the writing for Sam, instead of making him the hero LIKE THEY INTEND, makes him not look so good. I am not happy about that by the way. I think the writing for Sam has been pretty bad, the speech being the latest. It is just in a different bad way than the writing for Dean.  IMO, if they would just SHOW us two brothers who are both heroes, most of the fans would be happy and there wouldn't be all this fan frustration. I know I don't want Sam's writing sacrificed for Dean and I REALLY don't want Deans writing sacrificed for Sam. Just want a nice balance for TWO heroes who are co-leads. So basically, IMO, the writers and showrunner have unintentionally screwed both Sam and Dean and don't seem to be figuring it out.

So agree to all this!!

Though have doubts show runners will ever learn!!

[Geordiegirl1967]

6 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

According to Jared's slip at JIBCON Cas isn't gone

All we know is that Cas is 

Spoiler

In the Scooby Doo ep 16. That doesn't mean Cas didn't die as that ep could be aU, in their minds etc. Sounds from Misha like he still has a role in the show but whether that's playing Cas is far from certain. He corks be playing alt universes Cas or Jimmy, the Neph could possess him etc etc  

5 hours ago, SueB said:

WHAT. AN. IDIOT.  Dude could have slit Dean Winchester's throat, grabbed Mary and ran

Even more of an idiot when you put it together with the bizarre decision in the previous ep to lock them in the bunker rather than just shoot them for...you know.....reasons. 

5 hours ago, SueB said:

it just seems Lady Toni went down without a fight.

She was handcuffed to the table so I don't think she had much of a chance, but I agree that they made it. Look a simple kill. 

[Idahoforspn]

11 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

All we know is that Cas is 

  Hide contents

In the Scooby Doo ep 16. That doesn't mean Cas didn't die as that ep could be aU, in their minds etc. Sounds from Misha like he still has a role in the show but whether that's playing Cas is far from certain. He corks be playing alt universes Cas or Jimmy, the Neph could possess him etc etc  

 

When you watch the clip, it's obvious Cas is back. 

[flyinghigh]

12 hours ago, SueB said:

 

Bottom Line for the TL, DR: Berens/Sgriccia and Jensen/Jared/Samantha created a fantastic episode that dealt with meaty issues in a very satisfying way. Dean's story, in particular, was a jaw-dropping punch in the feels.  The level of sophistication in this episode was great. It has many layers and provided both good storytelling as well satisfying character progress.

The post is  very well analysed and written. I was initially trying to figure out how I can give you more than one "like". 

I haven't had time to sit and watch this episode again properly. After my first viewing I knew this is going to be one of those episodes which I would love to re watch. 

Edited May 21, 2017 by flyinghigh

[AwesomO4000]

15 hours ago, sarthaz said:

I totally buy it.  Crowley has hated his job for years, even before almost becoming human and bromancing with Demon!Dean.  To him, clawing his way to the top was the joy.  Actually being there made his skin crawl.  Think of all the times we've seen him falling asleep or rolling his eyes at the monotony and paperwork of ruling Hell. The only real joy he seemed to find was when he got to go back to basics and craft a nightmare contract like he did with Dick Roman.  There's a reason he always jumped right in when Moose or Not Moose called, because whatever they were doing was so much more interesting than what he was.

True! And I entirely get it too. I'm one of those people who much prefers to do the nuts and bolts stuff than the leading and the paperwork.

See, @rue721, being the leader can mean having to do the paperwork. ; )

Now the grant writing part is a little more iffy I admit... I guess maybe his business proposal to Castiel to try to get souls would be the closest comparison? Since souls are the currency/resources of Crowley's realm.

[AwesomO4000]

11 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

I am sure there was plenty of discussion regarding that episode on this forum too (Just My Imagination) so I'm not going to go into particulars. Just suffice it to say that, for me, that episode was written to take a hatchet to previous show Canon that Dean was very self sacrificing and took good care of Sam. Yes, part of the episode I was laughing hysterically but most of it I was fuming. In addition, that was one of the too numerous episodes for me where the guest of the week (Sully) is written tons of dialogue praising hero Sam to the point it was, IMO, even more over the top than the Sam speech written into 22. Meanwhile, Deans backstory was retconned in an unfavorable way again. JMI is NOT one of my favorite episodes.

And I still contend that the episode didn't do this.

I'm glad Sam got some praise from Sully - a rare character associated with Sam. Dean has long had Castiel who gives Dean praise. I thought it was a nice change for Sam to have an advocate of his own. As for there being too numerous episodes where Sam gets praised, we'll have to agree to disagree, since Sam gets enough where someone is just as likely to toss random insults, too. ("Devil May Care" comes to mind).

But Dean got his own praise from Sully as well - praising Dean's good job at taking care of Sam and that he (Dean) was "totally not a germ."

As for Dean being self-sacrificing, we had plenty of previous episodes to show that Dean was - and this episode, "Who We Are" re-inforced it in spades - but also episodes where he would leave Sam alone sometimes, either in the motel or at places like Plucky Pennywhistle's. * I am also of the opinion though, that that had nothing to do with not taking good care of Sam and made Dean human rather than a Marty Stu.

So Sam was lonely. So what? That was in no way Dean's fault nor was it Dean's responsibility to make sure Sam wasn't lonely and/or was constantly entertained. Again, for me, that has nothing to do with Dean not taking care of Sam. Nor was leaving Sam behind alone in "Just My Imagination" in any way Dean's fault - it was John's. No question in my mind.

And it's heartbreaking that Dean in this episode (Who We Are) had to think of himself as failing to take care of and/or protect Sam, because that in no way was on Dean, but squarely on John and to a lesser extent, Mary. Hopefully some day Dean will realize this, but it'll have to be something he realizes himself. Sam has already told Dean so more than once, and maybe someday Dean will believe it.

* I personally think some of the "canon" of Dean's self-sacrifice is tied up just as much in fanon and fanfiction as it is in show fact, but that's just my opinion on that.

[mertensia]

Sully is not the writers. A character-any character-can say and do things that the writers do not endorse nor believe. 

[MysteryGuest]

57 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And it's heartbreaking that Dean in this episode (Who We Are) had to think of himself as failing to take care of and/or protect Sam, because that in no way was on Dean, but squarely on John and to a lesser extent, Mary. Hopefully some day Dean will realize this, but it'll have to be something he realizes himself. Sam has already told Dean so more than once, and maybe someday Dean will believe it.

I actually think he's getting there.  I think this episode put both Sam and Dean in a much better place, emotionally.  Sam was able to acknowledge he'd made an error in judgment with the BMOL, without any accusations from anyone else, and no world-ending consequences from his decision (thank you, writers!).  The BMOL would have come after the American hunters eventually, whether Sam had signed up with them, or not.  He learned something about himself and was able to take action and fix things on his own (meaning without Dean). I think that was important.

Dean got much needed closure with Mary.  I don't think he ever allowed himself to admit that he hated her for her decision and the affect that decision had on all of them.  And then was able to move past that and forgive her because he understood exactly why she did what she did, since he's done the same thing.  

There was legitimate growth for both brothers, and 12 years in, that was a good thing.  It really is time they left their baggage behind them and moved forward.  I'm hoping for some sort of American MOL resurgence, and they absolutely are the men to lead that.

[SueB]

Just thought I'd share.... 

[Idahoforspn]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And I still contend that the episode didn't do this.

I'm glad Sam got some praise from Sully - a rare character associated with Sam. Dean has long had Castiel who gives Dean praise. I thought it was a nice change for Sam to have an advocate of his own. As for there being too numerous episodes where Sam gets praised, we'll have to agree to disagree, since Sam gets enough where someone is just as likely to toss random insults, too. ("Devil May Care" comes to mind).

But Dean got his own praise from Sully as well - praising Dean's good job at taking care of Sam and that he (Dean) was "totally not a germ."

As for Dean being self-sacrificing, we had plenty of previous episodes to show that Dean was - and this episode, "Who We Are" re-inforced it in spades - but also episodes where he would leave Sam alone sometimes, either in the motel or at places like Plucky Pennywhistle's. * I am also of the opinion though, that that had nothing to do with not taking good care of Sam and made Dean human rather than a Marty Stu.

So Sam was lonely. So what? That was in no way Dean's fault nor was it Dean's responsibility to make sure Sam wasn't lonely and/or was constantly entertained. Again, for me, that has nothing to do with Dean not taking care of Sam. Nor was leaving Sam behind alone in "Just My Imagination" in any way Dean's fault - it was John's. No question in my mind.

And it's heartbreaking that Dean in this episode (Who We Are) had to think of himself as failing to take care of and/or protect Sam, because that in no way was on Dean, but squarely on John and to a lesser extent, Mary. Hopefully some day Dean will realize this, but it'll have to be something he realizes himself. Sam has already told Dean so more than once, and maybe someday Dean will believe it.

* I personally think some of the "canon" of Dean's self-sacrifice is tied up just as much in fanon and fanfiction as it is in show fact, but that's just my opinion on that. 

As I said, I'm sure you guys discussed this episode extensively before. I don't agree with much of your post and neither of us are going to change our mind so agree to disagree. 

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

Just thought I'd share.... 

And I also saw tweets that when Jensen first read the script and saw Amara saying she was going to give Dean what he needed most, he thought it would be John.

[SueB]

17 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

This is all IMO so be prepared.

When the show first began, Sam was THE lead. Dean was basically the sidekick. Dean ended up being very popular so Jensen was made co-lead beginning season two. With Gamble, Carver, and especially with Dabb, it seems they are trying to go back to the season one roles. They seem to think, IMO, that Sam is the main star and not a co-lead.  They just don't know how to execute this on screen so it works for the fans. For example, under Carver, the not looking for Dean was the mature thing and I think Carver really thought the Sam/Amelia story was going to be the popular storyline. They needed to get rid of Dean for a while to set it up so they sent him to purgatory. Big surprise for them was the not looking for Dean was detested, Amelia was a flop and Purgatory was a hit. We still lost purgatory way to soon but I think Carver learned a bit of a lesson and started to balance things more.  And now we have Dabb who doesn't seem to be learning. Dabb is stillbtrying to give us hero Sam can do it all moments and to move Dean back into more of the sidekick role.  But the execution, like we saw this week, fails. IMO, Dabb just doesnt understand the mindset of the fans and how the writing will be received. They THINK they are making Sam look good but it ends up being over the top IMO and turns some fans off. If you have to have Dean and multiple guest stars multiple times TELL us Sam is a hero and Sam is smart and Sam is whatever, there is something wrong with the writing. I personally think the writing for Sam, instead of making him the hero LIKE THEY INTEND, makes him not look so good. I am not happy about that by the way. I think the writing for Sam has been pretty bad, the speech being the latest. It is just in a different bad way than the writing for Dean.  IMO, if they would just SHOW us two brothers who are both heroes, most of the fans would be happy and there wouldn't be all this fan frustration. I know I don't want Sam's writing sacrificed for Dean and I REALLY don't want Deans writing sacrificed for Sam. Just want a nice balance for TWO heroes who are co-leads. So basically, IMO, the writers and showrunner have unintentionally screwed both Sam and Dean and don't seem to be figuring it out.

No problems. I enjoy your thoughts. It's good to hear what others think. Shows me a perspective I might never have seen.

This is factually incorrect.  I'll respond in Bitch/Jerk.

[sarthaz]

12 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

Then why is Sam formulating all the plans now. Every episodes Dean is saying something like " what's the plan" or so what do you want to do" I agree Dean used to be the leader. Dabb has spent pretty much his entire tenure as both unofficial and official showrunner flipping the dynamic. Sam is now the leader. (and the researcher, and the killer of all monsters, and the....sorry, back to my corner)

I love them both and favor neither, so all the complaints about one character not getting enough dialogue and whatnot typically just annoy me and make me walk away from the forum.  But in this case, I'm forced to agree.  This season has been weird with regard to Dean.  He spends an inordinate amount of time standing in the background pouting and complaining like a teenage girl.  I don't recognize that guy.

[sarthaz]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Okay so I was looking at those big triangle spike things in the AU

and they look like GIANT ANGEL BLADES. What the hell??

source. SuperWiki

source: Winchester Family Business

I thought they were angel blades watching live, but I couldn't figure out the purpose.  Seemed like a weird prop.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think he ever allowed himself to admit that he hated her for her decision and the affect that decision had on all of them.  And then was able to move past that and forgive her because he understood exactly why she did what she did, since he's done the same thing.  

Maybe this is weird, but I didn't think it was really a big deal when Dean said he hated Mary. I mean, of course he's going to feel strongly about her, she's his mom -- so of course he's going to legitimately hate her sometimes or for some things. That's what happens when you love someone deeply IMO  -- they can sometimes really hurt you or really get under your skin, too. Welcome to the world of having a mother, Dean Winchester. :)

Granted, actually SAYING it is kind of asking for trouble. ;) Personally, I have never and would never tell my mother I hate her! But Dean and Mary were in pretty extraordinary circumstances lol

I DID think it was a big deal when he said he forgave her, though. That's not just something you feel, that's something you do -- a choice. Dean making that choice said something about who he is as an individual IMO.

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And I also saw tweets that when Jensen first read the script and saw Amara saying she was going to give Dean what he needed most, he thought it would be John.

Man, then I guess he has more faith in either actor who has played John making himself available than I do LOL. Also, I think that Jeffrey Dean Morgan legitimately doesn't like the role and doesn't want to be involved. He might be friends with the cast and not want to talk any shit about the role or show because of it, but he really keeps himself distanced. That he doesn't even really do the con circuit -- which is a lot of money for relatively little work, seems like -- is what seals the deal for me.

Honestly, I don't blame him because it seems like John inevitably comes under a lot of fire and gets a lot of venom from fans, and that can't be fun for an actor to deal with. Plus, I think that it was and is an ego blow that he was cast as the father to actors that aren't really much younger than he is. Samantha Smith probably has the same complaints, though. I hope that she can text JDM sometimes just to commiserate:  this is the hate you get when you play a could-never-be-good-enough parent to fervently beloved characters like Sam and Dean. This is the age-inappropriate casting you get when you're working on a CW (or formerly, WB) show ;)

13 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

He spends an inordinate amount of time standing in the background pouting and complaining like a teenage girl.

This is how I felt about the fights with Castiel. I hated the thing of Dean talking/complaining about Cas like Cas wasn't in the room. Like, "get a load of this guy!" stuff. It seemed catty, but in the way that someone's grandmother would be catty. I don't even have a strong opinion about whether that was "in character" for Dean or not, but regardless, I hated it because it was annoying.

[rue721]

I'm envisioning the demons using it to kill angels by impaling them. Kind of like this stacking toy, but with angels instead of hoops:

 

[gonzosgirrl]

rue721, I haven't seen video of it yet, so I don't know the accuracy of telephone-twitter, but it seems Jensen also knew they wouldn't be able to get JDM (too hot, too busy). I do believe we'll see him one day - in the final season. I'm not so sure about why he doesn't do cons - it sure seems like he got a LOT of love in Vegas. I don't recall any negative questions or comments about John at all. Now, anonymous people with keyboards on social media, that's a whole different kettle of fish. I've certainly been negative about Mary on Twitter, but I have nothing but love for Sam Smith herself. I make that distinction clear, but I see a lot of tweets that don't.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I'm envisioning the demons using it to kill angels by impaling them. Kind of like this stacking toy, but with angels instead of hoops:

 

*snort*

I laughed so loud I scared the cat.

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Maybe this is weird, but I didn't think it was really a big deal when Dean said he hated Mary. I mean, of course he's going to feel strongly about her, she's his mom -- so of course he's going to legitimately hate her sometimes or for some things. That's what happens when you love someone deeply IMO  -- they can sometimes really hurt you or really get under your skin, too. Welcome to the world of having a mother, Dean Winchester. :)

I think that's true of a child who grows up with their parent or parents.  They feel secure enough to have those feelings or at least to say that to a parent in a heated moment, because they know they are loved.  Dean didn't have that.  He lost his mother as a young child, and idolized that memory of her all of his life.  He played the good soldier for his father from Mary's death on, and once an adult, he and his brother have been in one world-ending crisis after another.  His image of his mother never changed.  But now that she's actually back, his adult self has had to come to terms with his memory of her and the reality of her.  I think it was a revelation to Dean to realize just how much he hated her, while loving her at the same time.  JMO

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

I'm envisioning the demons using it to kill angels by impaling them. Kind of like this stacking toy, but with angels instead of hoops:

 

Hee! That's hilarious!

I don't know, the alternate universe in general didn't do much for me. I thought they went too far with trying to make it different. I would've liked more subtlety, myself. Plus, if this really is going to be a place they return to in S13, I don't think they'll be able to maintain the level of visual effects required to make it compelling. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think that's true of a child who grows up with their parent or parents.  They feel secure enough to have those feelings or at least to say that to a parent in a heated moment, because they know they are loved.  Dean didn't have that.  He lost his mother as a young child, and idolized that memory of her all of his life.  He played the good soldier for his father from Mary's death on, and once an adult, he and his brother have been in one world-ending crisis after another.  His image of his mother never changed.  But now that she's actually back, his adult self has had to come to terms with his memory of her and the reality of her.  I think it was a revelation to Dean to realize just how much he hated her, while loving her at the same time.  JMO

JMOtoo. It seemed to me that Dean only realized it right there in that moment, watching her 'lie' to him about keeping him safe, and it was a kick in the gut. Jensen talked about it in his panel (haven't seen vid yet, so I'm paraphrasing tweets). He said the script called for him to cry, but he didn't want to/wasn't sure he was going to - but he ended up feeling for Dean in the moment and the tears came.

[rue721]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

They feel secure enough to have those feelings or at least to say that to a parent in a heated moment, because they know they are loved.

It's not that I disagree, but I think that in this case, Dean couldn't really love his mother before now because he didn't really know her before now. But along with love comes hate, because those strong feelings are going to be all tangled up.

Now that he actually knows and loves her, her betrayal is a real kick in the gut in a way it wasn't before. I think this was also the point of Rowena and Crowley's SL with Gavin (and Oscar).

Like I said, actually SAYING to her "I hate you" is pretty bold, but they were in extenuating circumstances and he had to really spill his guts in order to get through to her.

Having the feelings (expressed or not), though, is inevitable IMO.

[sarthaz]

Love it, but angels are too damn boring to have colors.  

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Man, then I guess he has more faith in either actor who has played John making himself available than I do LOL. Also, I think that Jeffrey Dean Morgan legitimately doesn't like the role and doesn't want to be involved. He might be friends with the cast and not want to talk any shit about the role or show because of it, but he really keeps himself distanced. That he doesn't even really do the con circuit -- which is a lot of money for relatively little work, seems like -- is what seals the deal for me.

From what I can tell, JDM is just really busy, but it sounds like he has no animosity for the show. He's said many times he would love to come back if they could work out the details. I think the bigger issue probably isn't his schedule, but that the show maybe can't afford him anymore. His career really took off after his stint on Supernatural.

I think he doesn't do the cons because he doesn't need that extra source of income and, IMO, I don't think he likes being on stage like that. He got a lot of love when he did one a couple years ago, but he seemed really nervous and uncomfortable. I think it's kinda daunting to stand up in front of all those people and talk about yourself, it's different than just performing, IMO. It's just not every actor's cup of tea.

[Ria]

I didn't buy the AU universe premise at all. The writers went with the most simplistic extreme. Angels don't need to create an apocalyptic  war with demons. They could wipe out 99% of them by showing their grace as we've seen. Cas killed a roomful with the palm of his hand glowing a few seasons back. Even Crowley was afraid of Cas once upon a time. The show has so downgraded angels and powered up demons so much the past couple of seasons the writers no longer remember how they started. Only the top demons and Knights of Hell would be a challenge. And presumably most of the archangels are around in the AU to deal with them.

Not to mention the angels orchestrated the birth of Sam and Dean and were unlikely to give up getting Mary and John together easily. Or are more likely to find another close line to get their vessels from. I just found the AU world cliched stupid. 

I'm assuming Cas will get resurrected until proven otherwise. I still don't care about the nephalim or understand why he would innately be evil. I hope this isn't another version of the Amara plot: rapidly growing and increasingly powerful evil being that must be stopped by the end of next season. We just saw that last year. 

Edited May 21, 2017 by Ria

[The Morning Star]

The more I think about it, the entire final moments of the episode were purposefully weird.

Cas running towards Lucifer like an idiot.

Convenient exist of the boys at the same instance.

The shot of Cas hitting Lucifer and failing miserably.

A weirdly long wait for Cas to suddenly appear.

Cas's confused and unresponsive attitude towards the brothers.

Standing there to get stabbed in the back by Lucifer.

 

If it wasn't for the broken wings effect, I would've argued that Lucifer had threw away Prime Cas before reaching him and what we saw was Alternate Cas stabbing Lucifer.

The final shots were just purposefully, misty...if that's a word.

[Idahoforspn]

25 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

From what I can tell, JDM is just really busy, but it sounds like he has no animosity for the show. He's said many times he would love to come back if they could work out the details. I think the bigger issue probably isn't his schedule, but that the show maybe can't afford him anymore. His career really took off after his stint on Supernatural.

I think he doesn't do the cons because he doesn't need that extra source of income and, IMO, I don't think he likes being on stage like that. He got a lot of love when he did one a couple years ago, but he seemed really nervous and uncomfortable. I think it's kinda daunting to stand up in front of all those people and talk about yourself, it's different than just performing, IMO. It's just not every actor's cup of tea.

Plus he was being asked stuff about John that was revealed after he left. For example, he didn't know John was in Vietnam. Pretty uncomfortable answering questions on things that weren't scripted when you were there.