S03.E23: Finish Line

[SyncMaster]

There were things that I liked about the episode and some that I didn't but deep on the like side, as always, was the appearance of Gypsu, Gypsayyyy, Gypsyyyy!  I loves me some Gypsy.  I liked her sudden appearance and I liked that horizontal portal that she created as an escape.

The other thing that I liked, again, as always, was the appearance of the real Flash, Jay Garrick.  Barry is always root-pootin' around and somehow shooting himself and the universe in the feet.  Jay, on the other hand, gets in and handles all of the business that he can.

On 5/24/2017 at 2:57 AM, Spaceman Spiff said:

And where was Jessie? Why wasn't she around to help? I'm sure Earth 3 could do without a speedster for a few minutes while she helps her friends.

I was hoping to see her as part of the speedster lineup because she was the only, or the first anyway, person to have fought, and injured, Savitar.

On 5/23/2017 at 11:25 PM, Trini said:

Caitlin/Killer Frost: I told y'all, she don't want to be saved. If they were just going to end the season with her figuring out who she is with these powers, they could have done that WITHOUT all the attempted murder! And since when is she more powerful than a speedster demon??

I don't think that she's more powerful than Black Flash but that undead speedster's focus is on other speedsters and they're always trying to outrun that thing.  Non-speedsters have to come up with other ways to deal with him as Malcolm Merlyn and Damien Dahrk did on Legends of Tomorrow.  Caitlyn, with her powers and her intellect probably figured using a super-low temperature blast was worth a try.

On 5/24/2017 at 3:05 AM, ottoDbusdriver said:

And they never did explain how Savitar traveled so far back in time to become the India god of Speed -- or who named him Savitar -- and they didn't explain how he was trapped by the Philospher's Stone.  So many unanswered questions that are all now moot.

And it's because of that history that I didn't think Savitar was Barry at all but an entirely different person.

[johntfs]

2 minutes ago, doram said:

that was just dumb af and one of the many stupid things wrong with this show/story. 

Grant did a good acting job with what he had, but he was directed totally wrong in that scene.  Really everyone except Iris reacted wrongly.  It felt like everybody but Iris got a text/phone to the effect of "Hey, don't worry, Barry's just going on a 3-4 month vacay in Speed Force Heaven.  Nobody tell Iris.  We in the Writers' Room like the taste of her tears."

[sarthaz]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

Grant did a good acting job with what he had, but he was directed totally wrong in that scene.  Really everyone except Iris reacted wrongly.  It felt like everybody but Iris got a text/phone to the effect of "Hey, don't worry, Barry's just going on a 3-4 month vacay in Speed Force Heaven.  Nobody tell Iris.  We in the Writers' Room like the taste of her tears."

My guess is CP got the same direction but said, "Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm better at this than you are, so I'm gonna be honest to my character amidst this idiotic scene, and you guys can eat me."  Seriously, I rewatched this scene and wanted to laugh at how cartoonishly stupid it is until Iris starts crying, and then I start crying, because she's just so damn convincing.  They're totally wasting her.

[sarthaz]

10 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

I have to whistle a ('nother) technical foul on that final sequence. 

Barry will now have to possibly endure eternity [as if, but play along] trapped within the SpeedForce as penance for both his own actions & consequences of said actions, but despite possibly never being able to see Iris, Joe, and the rest ever again... he seemed almost eager to go, overly so even.  It was freaking weird.  I don't think I would have been surprised at all - in retrospect - if he had of broken out in a song and dance before skipping into the SF with "mom".

OMG, this.  I totally see Barry's exit now like Sweet from Once More with Feeling. "Big smiles, everyone!  You beat the bad guy.  [tap dance number]  Now I gotta run. See you all ... in Hellllllll!"

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I mean, of all the times that Grant should have been written&directed to cry on this show - and be a waterfall-running, snot-dripping, hoarse mess of a crying jag - this was the time.  Instead, he's all smiles and contentedly tells the others to go on living their lives without him as he exits to "become one with the Force".

Guess they figured it was time for someone else to do it [the tears]?  Candice/Iris nailed the moment, and (it came off as) everyone else just mailed it in. 

This Show is currently night and day different from its S1 self.  And no, that was most definitely not meant as a compliment towards it or its PTB.

[immortalfrieza]

22 hours ago, RedVitC said:

I wouldn't be opposed to the wedding being during the crossovers, but like you I'm not sure how it would work (and ideally It'd be nice if they could give proper attention to it, which there might not be enough time for during the crossovers). I could see some kind of scenario where everyone comes to the same place for wedding festivities, but then oh no, shenanigans with a big villain and everything derails (this could be anything, a standard attack, other reality etc). And then in the final episode of the crossover, after everything is back to normal, the actual wedding would take place. That way the wedding would be important without necessarily being the focus of the episodes. But that would mean the wedding would take place during Arrow, and the Barry/Iris wedding should be a Flash episode.

Unless they have Felicity and Oliver also get married on Arrow at the end of it all. I'd the crossover to be something like the Fantastic Four wedding in the comics, where one supervillain uses some sci-fi tech or something to get a crapton of supervillains from all over Marvel comics to go and try to destroy the Fantastic Four, and it turns into a big battle royale between dozens of superheroes and dozens of supervillains, the good guys win, and Sue and Reed get married at the end of it. I could easily see a wedding with a superhero becoming a "let's all attack him on his SPECIAL day!!!" opportunity for supervillains.

HR had "disposable useless guy" written on his forehead from the beginning so no surprise he died here. Team Flash trying to redeem and help Savitar was nothing more than something to take up a few minutes and Barry was trapped in the Speed Force at the end of it... sigh.

I really really wish writers knew how to avoid insulting the intelligence of the viewers because they all seem to think that we are a bunch of 4 year olds that will actually buy into any of this.

Edited May 25, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[RedVitC]

51 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

Unless they have Felicity and Oliver also get married on Arrow at the end of it all. I'd the crossover to be something like the Fantastic Four wedding in the comics, where one supervillain uses some sci-fi tech or something to get a crapton of supervillains from all over Marvel comics to go and try to destroy the Fantastic Four, and it turns into a big battle royale between dozens of superheroes and dozens of supervillains, the good guys win, and Sue and Reed get married at the end of it. I could easily see a wedding with a superhero becoming a "let's all attack him on his SPECIAL day!!!" opportunity for supervillains.

That could actually be a fun idea. I'm not ruling out any potential wedding being Oliver and Felicity, but if the date on Barry and Iris' save the date is November, that could be a clue. We'll see. Maybe both couples will get married during the crossover (it'd be interesting to see the reaction to that). I guess we should wait and see in what kind of state Barry comes back, but between Iris' vows and you'll always be Iris West-Allen, they're practically married already.

All this talk about a crossover wedding is making me hope it'll actually happen.

[RedVitC]

14 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Barry will now have to possibly endure eternity [as if, but play along] trapped within the SpeedForce as penance for both his own actions & consequences of said actions, but despite possibly never being able to see Iris, Joe, and the rest ever again... he seemed almost eager to go, overly so even.  It was freaking weird.  I don't think I would have been surprised at all - in retrospect - if he had of broken out in a song and dance before skipping into the SF with "mom".

While I think they overdid it, I interpreted the way he acted on several fronts:

- I kind of see it like when you've done something you're not proud of, and it eats at you, and then when it does catch up with you, you almost feel kind of relieved even though you're about to face the consequences. The Flashpoint thing has been there in the background and sometimes at the forefront all season. Twice this season he was ready to basically die/made the decision to sacrifice himself very quickly (crossover and into the Speedforce). There was nothing he could really do to fix Flashpoint, and while this doesn't necessarily fix it, I guess now he feels he can do something to atone.

-Maybe partly this as well: To me he made the decision back when he was in Star Labs and said we give it what it wants. By the time they get outside he's already made his peace with it. Knowing he's going to leave them and Iris forever the last thing he'd want is for them to to see him super scared/or frightened. That last image of him turning around and looking at them the last time and smiling was for them. A kind of, don't worry about me. If he'd looked super broken none of them would be able to have peace with that as their last memory. If they were going to move on he needed them to see him at peace. I agree they probably should have had him show more sadness, but I did see sadness in between, but also needing to put a brave face for everyone.  

-I think they didn't want it to be as if the Speed Force took him kicking and screaming. For it to work as a sacrifice he had to do it willingly and be at peace with it. So that maybe played a part.

Maybe I'm reading way too much into it, though. It didn't fully work for me, but it also didn't not work for me.  I still cried at the scene (and yes, Candice did give an amazing performance.)

Edited May 25, 2017 by RedVitC

[SodaforceMaster]

Does anyone in the city just not notice the f*ckery around Star Labs? How about the couple of times Barry got stabbed by Killer Frost and somebody could've just unmasked him.

[legaleagle53]

I have to say that I felt sorry for Savitar when he explained to Team Flash why he could never be redeemed even if the team found a way to save him from the paradox.  As Savitar pointed out, he's got nothing to live for as a redeemed person.  Yes, he remembers being in love with Iris, singing to her and proposing to her, but it's BARRY she'd marry, not Savitar, and he'd have to watch it happen and live with it.  And where would he have lived and what would he have done with his life?  Would he have moved in with Joe and Wally or Cisco, and what sort of job would he have (Barry's already got what would have been Savitar's day job, remember)?

As hard as it was for me to see him revert completely to character in the end, he did have a point.  There was simply nothing left for him as a mere mortal, so it had to be "godhood or bust!" for him.

[DearEvette]

20 hours ago, johntfs said:

Grant did a good acting job with what he had, but he was directed totally wrong in that scene.  Really everyone except Iris reacted wrongly.  It felt like everybody but Iris got a text/phone to the effect of "Hey, don't worry, Barry's just going on a 3-4 month vacay in Speed Force Heaven.  Nobody tell Iris.  We in the Writers' Room like the taste of her tears."

You know, I was so damned relieved that Iris wasn't killed off that I didn't really even process that last scene properly.  But you are so correct.  Everyone's reaction of Barry being carted of to Speed Force prison was as if they were finally saying goodbye to someone who had been sick for a long time with a terminal illness and they were finally saying good bye with acceptance that it was time.  Only Iris was WTF???

Meanwhile Savitar is all, "man, if only I'd waited a bit longer...."

[ottoDbusdriver]

14 hours ago, doram said:

I'd have bought his "I can't live in a world where Iris isn't mine" line if he hadn't literally killed her a few hours ago. 

It's a big world with 7 billion people and he couldn't make a life for himself outside of Central City, Iris and the West-Allens? 

That's almost as lame as the excuse that he turned eveel because Team Flash weren't nice to him. 

That has got to be some of the lamest justification for a multi-millennium long killing spree lasting well into the future and then thousands of years from the past to the present.  Savitar, dude, get over yourself.  What's worse -- it was all for nothing, since now he never existed at all (but for some reason the results of his actions are still sticking around).  The writers need to get over themselves and write better stories for this show -- because S3 has shown that they either have to put down the bong, or go back to remedial script writing classes (or both).

Edited May 27, 2017 by ottoDbusdriver

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, doram said:

I'd have bought his "I can't live in a world where Iris isn't mine" line if he hadn't literally killed her a few hours ago. 

It's a big world with 7 billion people and he couldn't make a life for himself outside of Central City, Iris and the West-Allens? 

That's almost as lame as the excuse that he turned eveel because Team Flash weren't nice to him. 

But he didn't kill her, literally or metaphorically.  He only thought he had.

His question wasn't rhetorical.  What sort of life could he have had?  Remember that the reason he decided to become Savitar in the first place wasn't because of Iris' death or even being imprisoned in the Speed Force. It was because the rest of the team, for whatever reason, let him slide into irrelevance afterwards because he wasn't "the real Barry." That's exactly what he knew would happen if he were to somehow survive the paradox. He'd no longer be relevant to them, and therefore wind up abandoned and forgotten. Making himself a permanent part of the timeline would keep him relevant for all eternity, and there's some logic to that idea.

[Trini]

This is exactly why we needed at least an entire episode on Savitar's origin/backstory. I actually think the writers had some good ideas this season, but they were executed poorly.

[RedVitC]

Now that I think about it, wedding festivities could be a great excuse to have a separate adventure with just the women (which I've wanted for a long time). The men and women each go to their own activities, but then of course things go wrong when villains start to show up. Maybe Kara offers to host on her earth.

This is just adorable (this is the scene where Iris sings). Sorry for the terrible gif quality!

[mac123x]

On 5/25/2017 at 10:21 AM, johntfs said:

t felt like everybody but Iris got a text/phone to the effect of "Hey, don't worry, Barry's just going on a 3-4 month vacay in Speed Force Heaven.  Nobody tell Iris.  We in the Writers' Room like the taste of her tears."

 

On 5/25/2017 at 2:51 PM, sarthaz said:

 I totally see Barry's exit now like Sweet from Once More with Feeling.

I was thinking of that episode also, but Buffy's lament, and that's the direction they'll go with for season 4 angst.  Team Flash will discover (over the summer) a way to free Barry, and he'll be all "There was no pain, no fear no doubt, till they pulled me out... of Heaven.  I think I was in Heaven".

[johntfs]

6 minutes ago, mac123x said:

 

I was thinking of that episode also, but Buffy's lament, and that's the direction they'll go with for season 4 angst.  Team Flash will discover (over the summer) a way to free Barry, and he'll be all "There was no pain, no fear no doubt, till they pulled me out... of Heaven.  I think I was in Heaven".

I think that would be a cool thing to do.  It would be an interesting way to create problems between Barry and Iris without a silly-ass love triangle.  And yeah, there do need to be problems within various relationships because conflicts and problems are stories.

[mac123x]

Regarding Killer Snow / Caitlin Frost, I kind of liked what they did with that character.  Okay, "liked" might be a bit harsh, but I appreciated that they didn't forcibly cure her.  They left her some agency and gave her the choice.  As far as people wondering why she's suddenly not evil any more, they've been showing flashes (npi) of her non-villainy for several episodes, so it wasn't an out of the blue change of heart. 

Barry gave that saccharine speech about how they should try to save Savitar by working together instead of fighting him.  It failed with Savitar, but it actually worked with Caitlin.  Took a few episodes, but they showed her what they were willing to do to help her, and I think when Cisco gave her the cure and told her it was her choice, it finally broke the ice (pun intended that time).

[Whodunnit]

Did anyone else notice that Cisco's hair grew like three inches sometime within the last two episodes?

[Whodunnit]

I don't know why Savitar didn't immediately disappear or why Wally's powers still work, but I've always figured the reason that Gideon was still around past the death of evil wells was that since he's was an evil timetraveling genius from centuries into the future he had built in tech that kept all of his stuff from vanishing with his paradoxical demise... or otherwise Star Labs wouldn't have a lot of stuff, if it even would have existed without wells at all. I mean, the guy created a will so he knew his stuff was sticking around. Ugh, timetravel makes my head hurt.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Whodunnit
Correcting verb tense

[Cekrypton1]

I just re-watched "Flashpoint" (the season opener) and noticed a nice point of continuity. At the end of Flash's battle with The Rival, Flash turns his back and begins to walk away from The Rival, who he believes is unconscious. The Rival gets up and moves to kill Flash, and Joe shoots The Rival, in the same way Iris does Savitar at the end. Barry--quit turning your back on unconscious foes!

[Trini]

I wonder where this cut scene was supposed to go in the episode?

[phoenics]

On 5/30/2017 at 11:35 PM, Whodunnit said:

I don't know why Savitar didn't immediately disappear or why Wally's powers still work, but I've always figured the reason that Gideon was still around past the death of evil wells was that since he's was an evil timetraveling genius from centuries into the future he had built in tech that kept all of his stuff from vanishing with his paradoxical demise... or otherwise Star Labs wouldn't have a lot of stuff, if it even would have existed without wells at all. I mean, the guy created a will so he knew his stuff was sticking around. Ugh, timetravel makes my head hurt.

But didn't Barry create Gideon?

On 5/31/2017 at 8:52 PM, Trini said:

I wonder where this cut scene was supposed to go in the episode?

Is this a deleted scene?

[Trini]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Is this a deleted scene?

Apparently; a short clip of it was in the sizzle reel, and they had a couple promo pics of it. But it wasn't in the episode when it aired.