S05.E19: Dangerous Liaisons

[leopardprint]

6 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I know things can get pretty weird in comics, but ew. Maybe they ripped off Nolan for Arrow because they couldn't figure out how to bring comics faithful Ollie to TV without making him the villain. 

OMG, no kidding, so instead of mocking MG for ripping off Batman we should be praising him, what a twist. What strikes me is how dated he seems. I think even the little bit they included with the sister swapping was insurmountable. 

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Basically, Felicity and Lyla in this episode were behaving like the male characters. The male characters couldn't handle it. This was not an episode about THE DARK SIDE. It was an episode about paternalism.

I have to say, I didn't think the was paternalism at all. Neither Oliver nor Diggle said anything like "I'm your husband, do what I say" or  "You just don't know any better".  Or any other reductive thing IMO. Diggle appealed to Oliver to talk to Felicity because of their closeness and Diggle talked to Lyla as PARTNERS because they believed that on a professional and personal sense they were going over what they have ever done in the past.  I never got one paternalistic vibe from either Oliver or Diggle towards Felicity and Lyla.  YMMV

[Hiveminder]

1 minute ago, leopardprint said:

OMG, no kidding, so instead of mocking MG for ripping off Batman we should be praising him, what a twist. What strikes me is how dated he seems. I think even the little bit they included with the sister swapping was insurmountable. 

I don't think even Stephen Amell could have saved that. 

[BkWurm1]

8 minutes ago, way2interested said:

But if the problem is Oliver not backing her play, as you said and I agree with, how is that "paternalism"? Sounds pretty much just like a partnership problem which has been pretty consistent with Oliver and Felicity's (and Diggle and Lyla's) relationship issues, and not a misogynistic problem.

Idk, I get what you're saying, but I don't agree with it and just personally don't like when the idea of misogyny is thrown around as fact (personal issues/experiences, nothing to do with this). Just going to agree to disagree, and sorry for starting anything.

I don't think that Oliver or Diggle are misogynistic but I'm side eyeing the writers for letting Oliver and Diggle decide where to draw the lines for the women in their life when they don't agree on the same line for themselves.  I think it comes from a place that wants only good things for the women they love, but it's puzzling that Diggle seems to agree with Felicity when he's confronting Lyla about James, but still agrees with Olive that Felicity has crossed a line.  

[leopardprint]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I have to say, I didn't think the was paternalism at all. Neither Oliver nor Diggle said anything like "I'm your husband, do what I say" or  "You just don't know any better".  Or any other reductive thing IMO. Diggle appealed to Oliver to talk to Felicity because of their closeness and Diggle talked to Lyla as PARTNERS because they believed that on a professional and personal sense they were going over what they have ever done in the past.  I never got one paternalistic vibe from either Oliver or Diggle towards Felicity and Lyla.  YMMV

I think though that at least for Diggle/Lyla is that they are not partners at ARGUS. Lyla is the head of ARGUS and Diggle does not work there, so it kind of sounded like he was telling her how to do her job which she knows more about then he does since he's not involved in the day to day. Like, I was 100% Team Felicity and still slightly sideyed Diggle for that, even with my long history of internet activism against fictional illegal prisons (FU Barry).

Also, if Felicity shouldn't work with people who accidentally kill people during a mission, she shouldn't work with Oliver. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by leopardprint

[insomniadreams88]

My problem with this whole "Felicity has gone to the dark side" they said in this episode was that Lyla was super vague about James and then we see him being kept in a storage container? And she still wasn't being honest with the team even though they were helping her because she didn't tell them James was being kept elsewhere?

Also, think of it this way: if we didn't already know Lyla or ARGUS and they were just an organization in opposition to Helix like in this episode, would Oliver and Team Arrow side with them like they did? 

They were so set on saying Felicity went dark and having it be Felicity vs. everyone else, but it wasn't clear cut that we should be on "everyone else's" side. 

[statsgirl]

50 minutes ago, way2interested said:

By seeing she was siding with someone who felt no remorse in the idea of murdering people just to get what she wanted?

How many times has Oliver sided with Amanda Waller to get what he thought was the greater good? With the Bratva?  With Malcolm Merlyn?  Diggle said that he gets clarity from following the military code.  Doe he know what massacres the military has done without feeling bad about it?

This show has always been about acknowledging that sometimes you do things, or side with people that are bad but you make that decisions for the greater good.  Oliver and Diggle both voluntarily worked with Amanda Waller, who implanted bombs in the Suicide Squad's spines and would murder them if they didn't do what she wanted.

Compared to that, Helix is only medium grey.  Oliver wanted to wait and find another way to get Chase but how many more people was he going to murder in the meantime?

Quote

  I never got one paternalistic vibe from either Oliver or Diggle towards Felicity and Lyla. 

I can understand Diggle being upset at Lyla because the reality of what she's doing is so much bigger than what he imagined.  But Oliver's "You need to be better than that" was just all wrong.  Why does she need to be better than that when the stakes are so huge?  Would he have said the same thing to Sara?

Edited April 29, 2017 by statsgirl

[leopardprint]

6 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

They were so set on saying Felicity went dark and having it be Felicity vs. everyone else, but it wasn't clear cut that we should be on "everyone else's" side. 

Yes, totally agree, it wasn't so much the "dark side" as not on "their side", which given how absolutely loyal Felicity is, seriously rattled them and hurt Felicity who deserves some loyalty in return. 

Ultimately, they just didn't bother to establish Helix' dark bonafides and given Oliver and Lyla's compromised morality, it's hard to just take their word for it, especially over Felicity's. I know I am approaching dead horse drum on this, but at times it seemed like Felicity was the only one doing something about Chase. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by leopardprint

[Hiveminder]

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

I don't think that Oliver or Diggle are misogynistic but I'm side eyeing the writers for letting Oliver and Diggle decide where to draw the lines for the women in their life when they don't agree on the same line for themselves.  I think it comes from a place that wants only good things for the women they love, but it's puzzling that Diggle seems to agree with Felicity when he's confronting Lyla about James, but still agrees with Olive that Felicity has crossed a line.  

Can't he agree with both? Lyla shouldn't be keeping people in shipping containers with bags on their heads without a trial, and Felicity shouldn't be helping shady hacker organizations who kill people with elevators break some guy she knows nothing about out of aforementioned shipping container? They can both be in the wrong. They can all be in the wrong. 

I didn't see a hint of paternalism or misogyny in the episode. I didn't even see as much hypocrisy on Oliver's part as some have. (Diggle on the other hand, was totally hypocritical.) I saw Oliver seeing someone he loves going down a path he's gone down, a path that he is trying (however falteringly) to not walk anymore, and trying to warn her off it. Is that hypocritical, or is that just how people who care about other people should act?

I think some people read paternalism or sexism into it because Oliver and Dig are men and Felicity and Lyla are women, but I think if Roy, for an example of a guy both Oliver and Dig would care about, were still around and in a similar situation as Felicity they would try to stop him too. 

[insomniadreams88]

You know what I also wonder? I know there's some spec that James could really be Felicity's father. If this turns out to be true (I don't think it will, but still), and Lyla was holding her father, are the others still going to be Team ARGUS about the situation? 

[ComicFan777]

Wouldn't Lyla refer to him as Noah instead if he was Felicity's dad?  she worked with him and Felicity to stop Rubicon before, so she would have met him as Noah.

[insomniadreams88]

4 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

Wouldn't Lyla refer to him as Noah instead if he was Felicity's dad?  she worked with him and Felicity to stop Rubicon before, so she would have met him as Noah.

Unless she didn't want them to know she had him because she knew they wouldn't back her up? (Again, I don't think James is Noah. I think they just didn't show James' face because they haven't cast him yet.)

[statsgirl]

9 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I didn't see a hint of paternalism or misogyny in the episode. I didn't even see as much hypocrisy on Oliver's part as some have. (Diggle on the other hand, was totally hypocritical.) I saw Oliver seeing someone he loves going down a path he's gone down, a path that he is trying (however falteringly) to not walk anymore, and trying to warn her off it. Is that hypocritical, or is that just how people who care about other people should act?

I don't see Diggle as being hypocritical.  He did imprison Andy but he had proof that Andy was a very bad man.  And when he killed him, it was because Andy threatened to kill Lyla and baby Sara.  It's not like Digg did it without foundation or does it regularly.  But Lyla, as head of ARGUS, does that every day.  I think Diggle was shocked to learn just lengths she's got up to, certainly far worse than he has ever done.

I'm still not buying that Cayden James was bad enough to keep locked up in a shipping container without trial or due process. There's no evidence yet that he's hurt anyone.  Lyla said he was 200x more dangerous than Edward Snowden but I could make a good argument that Snowden was a kind of hero.

Oliver didn't want Felicity to go down his path but since his whole purpose since he got back to Starling City has been to sacrifice himself for the greater good, it's hypocritical to stop Felicity from being able to make the same choice herself.

[BkWurm1]

20 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

You know what I also wonder? I know there's some spec that James could really be Felicity's father. If this turns out to be true (I don't think it will, but still), and Lyla was holding her father, are the others still going to be Team ARGUS about the situation? 

I had that thought as well.  

22 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Can't he agree with both? Lyla shouldn't be keeping people in shipping containers with bags on their heads without a trial, and Felicity shouldn't be helping shady hacker organizations who kill people with elevators break some guy she knows nothing about out of aforementioned shipping container? They can both be in the wrong. They can all be in the wrong. 

I didn't see a hint of paternalism or misogyny in the episode. I didn't even see as much hypocrisy on Oliver's part as some have. (Diggle on the other hand, was totally hypocritical.) I saw Oliver seeing someone he loves going down a path he's gone down, a path that he is trying (however falteringly) to not walk anymore, and trying to warn her off it. Is that hypocritical, or is that just how people who care about other people should act?

I think some people read paternalism or sexism into it because Oliver and Dig are men and Felicity and Lyla are women, but I think if Roy, for an example of a guy both Oliver and Dig would care about, were still around and in a similar situation as Felicity they would try to stop him too. 

My issue is that Diggle and Oliver are the ones deciding it is wrong.  Full stop.  

And in Oliver's case, he doesn't seem to think it's wrong because it's the wrong choice or something he wouldn't do, (he's not even sure she is wrong) just that he doesn't want Felicity to do it.

 I do understand that he's worried that if she does things like he did, she could possibly become corrupted and he'd feel it's he fault.  But I'm not getting why THIS thing that Felicity wanted to do was the line that they wouldn't cross.

Oliver didn't care how she got her info before.  He was fine with her working with Helix when it was giving him answers before  and even praised Felicity for what she was doing as the thing Chase couldn't plan for, but a week later and suddenly she's in too deep in a dangerous group?

  The show has Oliver and Diggle judging Helix without giving me an understanding of why they are so against it beyond it has power in it's vast collection of knowledge. (And I don't even know if they know how much power) I need something more concrete than a hinkey feeling that Oliver and Dig have.  I need facts.  Yes, killing that agent was bad, but again, was it so bad as to let Chase go?  It's not like letting Chase go would bring Alena to justice.  It feels like judgment without justification.  Except for their say so.  And that's why I keep coming back to something feeling off.  

Part of me keeps coming back to wondering if all this worry and judgement had more to do with her drifting away from Oliver and Team Arrow than Felicity selling her soul. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by BkWurm1

[leopardprint]

26 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I saw Oliver seeing someone he loves going down a path he's gone down, a path that he is trying (however falteringly) to not walk anymore, and trying to warn her off it. Is that hypocritical, or is that just how people who care about other people should act?

I think some of the problem is that Oliver didn't ask Felicity why she was doing this or why she thought this was the best move. He just jumped straight to don't sell your soul to the evil hackers. And as he and she said, she's been with him for five years, she knows the consequences and is moving ahead with clear eyes and full knowledge. Honestly, it seemed like they were worried just because they didn't know about it, like her judgement couldn't be trusted. 

Now all of this is predicated on Helix being the bad guy to Argus' good guy which I don't think they successfully established so Oliver seemed slightly hysterical with his soul talk. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by leopardprint

[Hiveminder]

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I had that thought as well.  

My issue is that Diggle and Oliver are the ones deciding it is wrong.  Full stop.  

And in Oliver's case, he doesn't seem to think it's wrong because it's the wrong choice or something he wouldn't do, (he's not even sure she is wrong) just that he doesn't want Felicity to do it.

 I do understand that he's worried that if she does things like he did, she could possibly become corrupted and he'd feel it's he fault.  But I'm not getting why THIS thing that Felicity wanted to do was the line that they wouldn't cross.

Oliver didn't care how she got her info before.  He was fine with her working with Helix when it was giving him answers before  and even praised Felicity for what she was doing as the thing Chase couldn't plan for, but a week later and suddenly she's in to deep in a dangerous group?

  The show has Oliver and Diggle judging Helix without giving me an understanding of why they are so against it beyond it has power in it's vast collection of knowledge. (And I don't even know if they know how much power) I need something more concrete than a hinkey feeling that Oliver and Dig have.  I need facts.  Yes, killing that agent was bad, but again, was it so bad as to let Chase go?  It's not like letting Chase go would bring Alena to justice.  It feels like judgment without justification.  Except for their say so.  And that's why I keep coming back to something feeling off.  

I think we're being hindered from being able to completely understand Oliver and Dig's viewpoint because the writers got themselves in a bit of a pickle. They want to show Felicity going 'dark', but they won't actually let her do anything dark. If they're not going to let her make any real, big mistakes, then what's the point of this storyline?

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Oliver didn't care how she got her info before.  He was fine with her working with Helix when it was giving him answers before  and even praised Felicity for what she was doing as the thing Chase couldn't plan for, but a week later and suddenly she's in to deep in a dangerous group?

  The show has Oliver and Diggle judging Helix without giving me an understanding of why they are so against it beyond it has power in it's vast collection of knowledge. (And I don't even know if they know how much power) I need something more concrete than a hinkey feeling that Oliver and Dig have.  I need facts.  Yes, killing that agent was bad, but again, was it so bad as to let Chase go?  It's not like letting Chase go would bring Alena to justice.  It feels like judgment without justification.  Except for their say so.  And that's why I keep coming back to something feeling off.  

Yep. It seems like suddenly Helix was bad because they were going against ARGUS. 

Chase is still out there. A joint task force of federal agencies/SCPD/Team Arrow was getting nowhere. Helix doesn't seem so bad like that. 

And hey, maybe they could have worked something out with Helix but that never seemed to be an option. 

Also, what exactly is it that James apparently did? Something about maybe compromising ARGUS agents? So much vagueness about him from Lyla.

And did I read that Helix was using rubber bullets? If James had been at the first ARGUS site, did those agents have rubber bullets too? Or would it have been Helix's rubber bullets against ARGUS' real bullets? (That being said, Alena turning ARGUS' weapon on Diggle will never be okay.)

[BkWurm1]

20 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I think we're being hindered from being able to completely understand Oliver and Dig's viewpoint because the writers got themselves in a bit of a pickle. They want to show Felicity going 'dark', but they won't actually let her do anything dark. If they're not going to let her make any real, big mistakes, then what's the point of this storyline?

I found it interesting that many people (I'm thinking of that other board) insist that she's wrong because MG said this is her dark arc and that she's crossing lines, so even though what we see on screen isn't so black and white, that's the prism everything is viewed through.  She's totally wrong because that's what we were promised basically.  

18 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

 

Also, what exactly is it that James apparently did? Something about maybe compromising ARGUS agents? So much vagueness about him from Lyla.

And did I read that Helix was using rubber bullets? If James had been at the first ARGUS site, did those agents have rubber bullets too? Or would it have been Helix's rubber bullets against ARGUS' real bullets? (That being said, Alena turning ARGUS' weapon on Diggle will never be okay.)

James had access to data that could compromise agents but we heard nothing about him actually compromising any or having that intent.  It seemed that Felicity did the same thing that got James tucked in a metal box.  (Accessed Argus agent files) That bothered me.  

And yes, Alena had her hired guns use rubber bullets (that would have been nice to know for Felicity when she was turning down that gun) and yes I agree, she's permanently on my shit list for turning the turret on Diggle.  BUT Diggle was going around knee capping Helix's team with REAL bullets and presumably the same goes for Oliver.  It just muddies the water even more on who the actual bad guy in this was or who was more in the wrong.  

It feels like in the end, that either side could justifiably argue their position and I'm ok with that, so what then I end up focused on is that if Felicity wasn't wildly wrong, then was Felicity right about Oliver not backing her up cause he doesn't trust her?  I don't believe that but I now NEED to know WHY he couldn't support her play even if he didn't love it.   

Edited April 29, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Hiveminder]

6 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I found it interesting that many people (I'm thinking of that other board) insist that she's wrong because MG said this is her dark arc and that she's crossing lines, so even though what we see on screen isn't so black and white, that's the prism everything is viewed through.  She's totally wrong because that's what we were promised basically.  

James had access to data that could compromise agents but we heard nothing about him actually compromising any or having that intent.  It seemed that Felicity did the same thing that got James tucked in a metal box.  (Accessed Argus agent files) That bothered me.  

And yes, Alena had her hired guns use rubber bullets (that would have been nice to know for Felicity when she was turning down that gun) and yes I agree, she's permanently on my shit list for turning the turret on Diggle.  BUT Diggle was going around knee capping Helix's team with REAL bullets and presumably the same goes for Oliver.  It just muddies the water even more on who the actual bad guy in this was or who was more in the wrong.  

It feels like in the end, that either side could justifiably argue their position and I'm ok with that, so what then I end up focused on is that if Felicity wasn't wildly wrong, then was Felicity right about Oliver not backing her up cause he doesn't trust her?  I don't believe that but I now NEED to know WHY he couldn't support her play even if he didn't love it.   

I really think the writers dropped the ball. They wanted to do a dark arc with Felicity (because everyone and their mother needs a dark arc for some reason), but they want to keep her light. You can't do both. 

They didn't have the guts to make Felicity actually do something bad, or even try to do something bad, and, even though I think she should have been more suspicious of Helix, they apparently didn't have Helix completely dupe her into doing bad things for them without her knowledge. So what we ended up with was Felicity doing the same kinds of things she would normally do, but for people whose ultimate goals she doesn't really know because she was desperate to get Chase. As much as I haven't trusted Helix, and haven't liked how little Felicity questioned their aims and methods, from the beginning, the worst you can call her here is naive and rash. 

I never wanted a dark arc for Felicity, but Inwould have preferred for her to be the one to accidentally kill the Argus agent than whatever they're doing now. 

Of course, on a perfect show, Felicity's arc this season would have been starting her own company or getting PT back, renaming it Smoak Queen Technologies (because she seems like a woman who would hyphenate), and embarrassing Mr. Dennis in front of the board before she fires him. But I can't have what I really want. 

[bijoux]

When did they mention using rubber bullets?

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

renaming it Smoak Queen Technologies

I'd be disappointed if she didn't call it "SmoakNQueen" :))

[leopardprint]

18 minutes ago, bijoux said:

When did they mention using rubber bullets?

Curtis' babble about no Argus agents being injured. 

[UNOSEZ]

While I don't know about going to the dark side....This Felicity / Helix/ Argus situation my opinion is that team arrow for better or worse has worked with argus for years they dont all trust one another but there is respect not to mention the new boss is family for OTA now this csyden guy was doing some kind of illegal hacking when argus scooped him up and given their track record if argus says the person is a threat.. They're probably a real threat... So to me it's more about even if this can help us get closer to Adrian... Are we really gonna screw over lyla and release this dangerous person to this group we know little about when we know Felicity isnt in a great place??  Curtis (who I'm praying becomes more bearable soon) has seemed weary of helix and as the only other geek and ine without as much hatred fueling him compared to Felicity.. I tend to follow his lead,  I agree with those saying helix will come back to bite them

[Midnight Lullaby]

4 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

I really think the writers dropped the ball. They wanted to do a dark arc with Felicity (because everyone and their mother needs a dark arc for some reason), but they want to keep her light. You can't do both. 

They didn't have the guts to make Felicity actually do something bad, or even try to do something bad, and, even though I think she should have been more suspicious of Helix, they apparently didn't have Helix completely dupe her into doing bad things for them without her knowledge. So what we ended up with was Felicity doing the same kinds of things she would normally do, but for people whose ultimate goals she doesn't really know because she was desperate to get Chase. As much as I haven't trusted Helix, and haven't liked how little Felicity questioned their aims and methods, from the beginning, the worst you can call her here is naive and rash. 

I never wanted a dark arc for Felicity, but Inwould have preferred for her to be the one to accidentally kill the Argus agent than whatever they're doing now. 

Of course, on a perfect show, Felicity's arc this season would have been starting her own company or getting PT back, renaming it Smoak Queen Technologies (because she seems like a woman who would hyphenate), and embarrassing Mr. Dennis in front of the board before she fires him. But I can't have what I really want. 

That's exactly the problem. The worst thing Helix did was killing that agent and one could argue that one member going too far doesn't define them as a whole. They are potentially dangerous because of all the informations they have but we saw them helping Felicity free Dig and getting evidence on Chase. All good things. It's not the same thing as working with the Bratva that is a criminal organization that kills and tortures people, deals drugs, sells people for money and power. It doesn't need to be explained that they are the bad guys. And thinking about ARGUS Waller wanted to destroy Starling City back in season 2 just to make an example. They are shady and potentially dangerous as well. The difference is that they are a government organization but that doesn't necessarily mean good guys.

I don't even think the writers were telling us Felicity is wrong and the team is right because they had Felicity point out how Oliver acted in the past. If we are saying the end doesn't justify the means than no one is right. Not Felicity because she did something illegal to find Chase, not Lyla and the team because detaining a man in a basement is a violation of human rights. But also being a vigilante is still illegal the last time I checked, hacking is as well and killing a person, even if he is a super villain, is still murder so where is the line? LOL

I liked the way they showed everyone's POV that basically never happens.

[tv echo]

9 hours ago, leopardprint said:

4. I understand the loft scene is supposed to be about Oliver inspiring heroes not just psychopaths but I do wish it had been less about him. Felicity's entire storyline this season has been some method of supporting Oliver and he has just not done the same for her. (Or maybe I am just dead inside.) 

I read a media review that said that Oliver's past vigilante actions didn't just create Prometheus - they created Dark Felicity as well. And that's why Felicity's story was also Oliver's story.

[Hiveminder]

52 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I read a media review that said that Oliver's past vigilante actions didn't just create Prometheus - they created Dark Felicity as well. And that's why Felicity's story was also Oliver's story.

I don't like this idea that Oliver created Prometheus or 'Dark Felicity' (who isn't even that dark). Oliver didn't create Prometheus any more than a woman creates her own stalker, and Felicity makes her own choices. 

[Guest]

IDK, I'm not saying it's misogynistic but I did side-eye when even Diggle said that Felicity shouldn't have to make the morally questionable choices. It was likely not written that way intentionally but it did come across, to me, like little Felicity had to be protected by her male team mates. IDK. Just for a second it felt like they didn't quite view her as equal on the team which doesn't make sense seeing as she's been there every step of the way. Ultimately I know they love her and want her safe and don't want her to lose her light but there was a moment when I went hmmm.

11 hours ago, Chaser said:

It was great to see Felicity do her own thing. I had a hard time understand why exactly they weren't supporting her though. Yes Helix is shady but no shadier then Argus and Helix did free Diggle and helped expose Chase. It would be one thing if we were shown how bad James was but we were just told and not very convincingly either.  There just seemed to be a disconnect.

This. Bearing in mind that I haven't seen every episode, is Helix really bad? I know they're not innocent but the way Diggle and Oliver kept saying she was in something bad and had gone to the dark side and crossed so many lines, it made it sound like they were super evil murderers or something. I just didn't quite get it. 

I'm sure they'll turn out to be worse next season and Felicity helping to release James will definitely bite her in the ass at some point but right now I'm not quite seeing how horrific they supposedly are.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Guest

[ComicFan777]

I think they should have compromised - have ARGUS feed Cayden food/water with nanites (I doubt he would suspect anything since he needs to eat/drink sometime), let Felicity and Helix rescue him, have him track Chase for Team Arrow, then ARGUS can swoop in, EMP Helix's computer systems and recapture him.  It's not like he would go on some killing rampage if released for a few hours, he just tried to hack their transponder to pull data on their undercover agents.

I mean, I know that it had to go the way it did for plot, but still...

Edited April 29, 2017 by ComicFan777

[insomniadreams88]

43 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

IDK, I'm not saying it's misogynistic but I did side-eye when even Diggle said that Felicity shouldn't have to make the morally questionable choices. It was likely not written that way intentionally but it did come across, to me, like little Felicity had to be protected by her male team mates. IDK. Just for a second it felt like they didn't quite view her as equal on the team which doesn't make sense seeing as she's been there every step of the way. Ultimately I know they love her and want her safe and don't want her to lose her light but there was a moment when I went hmmm.

This. Bearing in mind that I haven't seen every episode, is Helix really bad? I know they're not innocent but the way Diggle and Oliver kept saying she was in something bad and had gone to the dark side and crossed so many lines, it made it sound like they were super evil murderers or something. I just didn't quite get it. 

I'm sure they'll turn out to be worse next season and Felicity helping to release James will definitely bite her in the ass at some point but right now I'm not quite seeing how horrific they supposedly are.

I think it's just that they seem to hold Felicity to different standards than the others and that may be because that's how they want her for themselves. They want her to be someone who doesn't make these decisions and so therefore she should be what they want. 

And yeah, it definitely seemed like a sudden "Helix is bad" from them especially considering I don't even think anyone but Curtis knows about the favor Helix had her do in order to rescue Susan? It seemed to come across as "Helix is opposing ARGUS right now so therefore everything about them must be bad and dark, including everything before now."

4 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

I don't see why they couldn't have compromised - have ARGUS feed Cayden food/water with nanites (I doubt he would suspect anything since he needs to eat/drink sometime), let Felicity and Helix rescue him, have him track Chase for Team Arrow, then ARGUS can swoop in, EMP Helix's computer systems and recapture him.  It's not like he would go on some killing rampage if released for a few hours, he just tried to hack their transponder to pull data on their undercover agents.

Shh, that would make sense. And then we couldn't have it be Felicity vs. everyone which was the whole point of the episode. Sort of like how when Oliver and Lyla were breaking Diggle out of prison, they had to shut Felicity out when she didn't immediately agree with their plan five seconds after hearing about it. There couldn't be another option voiced because then they couldn't tell the story they wanted to for the episode. 

[ComicFan777]

It's kinda funny that ARGUS sees Cayden as such a huge threat for trying to hack them.  Felicity probably could do just as much damage in her sleep, looking at how she hacks into ARGUS on a daily basis to use their satellites, programs, and pull intel in minutes without leaving a single trace.  If Felicity wasn't working for Team Arrow, that could have been her in the shipping container (assuming she'd ever get caught).

[statsgirl]

I think Lyla saying that James is 200x worse the Snowden was supposed to indicate that he would not only take information, he would use it in a bad/evil way.  But the whole thing is ridiculous because the Russians did just that, hacked US political organizations and released information that most probably influenced the election, and many people in the US are shrugging their shoulders and going 'so what?'.

Where Diggle bothered me more than here was in the earlier episode when he told Felicity not to go down the Helix path because they were a shady organization while he freely works with ARGUS and his wife is its head.  Of course no one should work with a shady organization but if you're doing it yourself and justifying it in your mind that you're right to do so, it's hypocrisy to tell someone else not to.

In this episode Oliver and Diggle were both against Helix because Lyla said it was bad.  They've given their trust and support to Lyla so when she says something is back, it's natural to take her side.  It;s only when Diggle found out just what she was doing as head of ARGUS that he balked.

The worst Diggle did in this episode IMO was to be horrified that there were black sites on American soil, which implied that it was okay for the American government to run sites like that as long as they were in other countries.

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I found it interesting that many people (I'm thinking of that other board) insist that she's wrong because MG said this is her dark arc and that she's crossing lines, so even though what we see on screen isn't so black and white, that's the prism everything is viewed through.  She's totally wrong because that's what we were promised basically. 

This is similar to Diggle's and Oliver's logic, that Helix is wrong because ARGUS says its wrong.

[tv echo]

I guess I'm a little slow, but I only just realized that this promo still was actually a b-t-s shot where they hadn't yet digitally added the laser web wall between Oliver & Felicity...

[statsgirl]

Quote

Felicity: I'm sorry. I am. I'm really hoping that you're gonna understand after we get Chase.
Oliver: Don't count on it.

Butt-hurt Oliver.

I liked the follow-up to this exchange:  later in the lair Oliver tells Felicity that he's sorry her friends dumped her and she replies "I thought you weren't going to lie to me any more."  She's really not letting him get away with anything any more, which is a glorious change from earlier when she called him on his stuff but forgave him everything, including thinking that he was going to kill them all in Nanda Parbat, because it was for the good of the mission.  Fortunately, he was sincere.

Edited April 29, 2017 by statsgirl

[leopardprint]

3 hours ago, Angel12d said:

Felicity helping to release James will definitely bite her in the ass at some point but right now I'm not quite seeing how horrific they supposedly are.

This comment made me realize an ongoing problem with this show and the logic used to justify the characters' actions. It seems like the characters act on information that the viewers aren't privy to. For example, everything about Susan said it would be stupid for Oliver to date her, but Susan never betrayed him. Oliver knew she wouldn't despite all evidence to the contrary. In this storyline, Oliver and Diggle don't want Felicity to help Helix because it's like they know some future terrible thing will happen based on nothing in the present. 

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I liked the follow-up to this exchange:  later in the lair Oliver tells Felicity that he's sorry her friends dumped her and she replies "I thought you weren't going to lie to me any more."  She's really not letting him get away with anything any more, which is a glorious change from earlier when she called him on his stuff but forgave him everything, including thinking that he was going to kill them all in Nanda Parbat, because it was for the good of the mission.  Fortunately, he was sincere.

Now, this I did like! I am glad that she's calling him out now, he's really not been there for her.

So I am of two minds on the "Don't count on it" line, on the one hand, Oliver tends to think he deserves whatever people throw at him so I was kinda glad to see him show some emotional fight. However, Felicity has, more than anyone, put up with so much of his crap, she deserves all the benefit of his doubts.

Also, was anyone else surprised by Oliver's reaction to Diggle's "I'm not the man she was going to marry." To me, it was very, "That's old news, why are you bringing this up at all?" Granted there were two mentions of their relationship this episode so that's 200% more than the entire season. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by leopardprint

[statsgirl]

Does Oliver think that Felicity listens to Diggle more than she listens to him?  Because frankly I haven't seen the much lauded Diggle/Felicity relationship pretty much all season.  Diggle didn't even go to her to thank her for getting the information that got him out of jail.

[leopardprint]

Yes, it was kind of a weird scene. Very, "wait, did you turn the lights off? I thought you were supposed to turn the lights off."

Now I'm headcanoning, but maybe they each thought the other was her sounding board and she fell through the cracks. ?Ugh, Felicity should have run off with Helix. 

Felicity was firmly placed on Felicity Island and then pretty much ignored, clicking and clacking away at her keyboard, so long as the information and pep talks kept coming, they didn't need to worry until she was trying to leave the lair in her Action Trenchcoat with matching Fieldwork Wedges. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by leopardprint

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Also, was anyone else surprised by Oliver's reaction to Diggle's "I'm not the man she was going to marry." To me, it was very, "That's old news, why are you bringing this up at all?" Granted there were two mentions of their relationship this episode so that's 200% more than the entire season. 

I didn't get a "that's old news" vibe, but more of a "stunned that anyone was going to bring that up" vibe, like it was one of the elephants in the room that he didn't think anyone was going to address. And that now that someone did, he was wondering "why are you bringing this up at all?" since it doesn't help the situation (in fact could actually make it worse if she took it in a certain way of "just because we were about to get married you think we can still have this conversation," but she didn't and instead took opposition with his argument rather than their previous relationship).

[Carrie Ann]

From the Spoiler thread, regarding this exchange:

Felicity: "I'm sorry. I am. I'm really hoping you're gonna understand after we get Chase."

Oliver: "Don't count on it."

3 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I don't think it was shitty at all. When he got back to the bunker he basically said he didn't know what to say to her about stepping in front of a bullet in order to ultimately stop Chase - then he drank about it. He seemed pretty shaken up over it.

I felt like the emotions on both sides didn't really track from that scene with the laser wall to the final scene. Oliver seemed angry (or possibly just upset or shocked), and Felicity seemed genuinely remorseful, if not for her actions then for the impact they were having on Oliver at that moment. And then by the end, Oliver is resigned and sad and sympathetic toward her, and now she's angry at him. And in both cases, the not-angry reactions felt the most understandable and right to me. So I'm just going to explain the anger reactions as the immediate responses to something upsetting happening; in Felicity's case, it was being unceremoniously bounced from Helix due to her association with GA, who attempted to stop them instead of supporting them.

Anyway, that also ties into the conversation about the paternalistic overtones of this episode. I actually thought the show did a lot to try to combat those connotations, but they probably didn't go far enough and can't overcome the 4.5 seasons of history of that kind of thing. First, Oliver suggested that Felicity's plan might be the right call. Then he was told--by Lyla--that no, he was wrong, it was a very bad plan because it freed a very dangerous man, and they would need to find another way to stop Chase that didn't involve letting loose more danger. Oliver knows basically nothing about Helix--and no one, including Felicity, knew anything about Caden James. So Oliver deferred to Lyla's greater knowledge, which again should undercut the paternalistic overtones. Later, in their conversation at the loft, he phrases his words to Felicity as "asking" her not to do this, he tells her that he knows he shouldn't shelter her from making tough decisions, and then reiterates that she's willing to sell her soul or whatever in order to stop something HE created. This scene, though I really enjoyed it, needed more precise dialogue, because I think some points were lost here and I'm merely guessing what Oliver was trying to say. But I think what he was going for was that because this was his fault, he also felt responsible to try to stop her from solving it in a manner he thought would cause further damage, including damage to her.

I also thought that Lyla and Felicity were both shown as being pragmatic in their plans, not just defiant or blindly arrogant (cough), so to me neither of them was really painted as being clearly in the wrong while the wise men were tut-tutting at them. I think the show wanted people to feel that what they were doing was understandable, but that there was also some room to judge their actions as morally wrong. The show judges Oliver and Dig's similar actions as being wrong, so that's okay, I think?

I've actually never had much of a problem with Oliver or Dig (when applicable) trying to convince people not to follow in their footsteps. I kind of compare it to a recovering addict telling a friend not to take drugs, or a boxer with CTE telling a kid not to take up the sport. They had a bad experience, know the risks, and don't want someone they love to go through the things they've been through. Unfortunately, on this show, it's almost always a guy saying this to a woman (Felicity, Thea, Laurel, Evelyn, even Dinah this season). Dig often says this kind of thing to Oliver, but he was already pretty far gone when they met and the plot of the show relies on Oliver to only listen to advice about half the time. And other than trying to divert Roy from superhero-ing at all, I don't think there was a lot of talk about his soul or anything. Ditto for Rene and Curtis, though...I may have skipped those scenes.

So anyway, I think the episode had to overcome all that history, and the optics of two dudes in the lair and later on a rooftop being like, "women be crazy, right?!" and it was not quite able to do that. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by Carrie Ann

[leopardprint]

9 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I didn't get a "that's old news" vibe, but more of a "stunned that anyone was going to bring that up" vibe, like it was one of the elephants in the room that he didn't think anyone was going to address.

Oh, I think this is the correct read of the scene, I may just be quibbling over the acting choices since "stunned" and "huh?" are probably pretty close on his acting range. 

9 minutes ago, way2interested said:

..like it was one of the elephants in the room that he didn't think anyone was going to address.

You probably didn't mean it this way, but this is kind of a meta statement for the whole season. ?

Edited April 29, 2017 by leopardprint

[insomniadreams88]

58 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Does Oliver think that Felicity listens to Diggle more than she listens to him?  Because frankly I haven't seen the much lauded Diggle/Felicity relationship pretty much all season.  Diggle didn't even go to her to thank her for getting the information that got him out of jail.

Very true. And that bothers me even more because Chase got thanked and Felicity never did. (And WM said that it was because of Chase that Diggle was free in that preview for 512.) 

Speaking of, did anyone bring up the fact that Felicity (and Helix) is why Diggle was freed? Not that I can remember. It seemed like everything about Helix in this episode was "bad" and "dark" and no mention of how they helped from those that were Team ARGUS. 

[leopardprint]

Helix has much more positively impacted Team Arrow than negatively. 

• exonerate Diggle
• Russia nuke
• save Susan
• outed Chase

The agent's accidental death affected ARGUS but 20xSnowden didn't actually hack the info. 

I know they shoehorned in that conversation in 516 or 517 while Susan was gone, but maybe this soul sacrificing talk would have had more impact when Oliver was more directly benefiting from their information but I guess he didn't realize how outside the "lines" they were then. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by leopardprint

[statsgirl]

50 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Very true. And that bothers me even more because Chase got thanked and Felicity never did. (And WM said that it was because of Chase that Diggle was free in that preview for 512.) 

Speaking of, did anyone bring up the fact that Felicity (and Helix) is why Diggle was freed? Not that I can remember. It seemed like everything about Helix in this episode was "bad" and "dark" and no mention of how they helped from those that were Team ARGUS. 

And how about the fact that Chase was the one who put Diggle in jail after Lyla and Oliver broke him out?

No one brought up the fact that Felicity, with Helix's help not only got Diggle out of jail but found the nuke the evil general was selling.  Diggle should have been more conflicted because if not for Helix and Felicity's association with them, he would still be in jail.

To me, Oliver and Diggle deciding to side with ARGUS when Helix has done more good things for them than bad is like when country X decides to support country Y even though they are doing bad things because country Y is an ally.  We've supported some pretty awful dictatorships because they've been anti-communists or anti-ISIS/Dayesh (e.g. Erdogan) or are willing to supply an airbase for our planes.  That's pretty much what Oliver and Diggle are doing, supporting ARGUS because it's been helpful to them in the past without truly weighing who is more right and who is wrong.

[Hiveminder]

I know Felicity put up that laser wall so Oliver couldn't run after Helix and Cayden, but does anyone else think that if she hadn't gotten it up in time what actually would have happened would have been him grabbing her and yelling at her for putting herself in front of a bullet like a mom yelling at her kid for running out into the street?

[insomniadreams88]

Question: the Helix mercenaries with Felicity and Alena on their mission were the same ones from earlier retrieving the second key, right? Did the team know then - or could they have known and just didn't check? - that they were using rubber bullets? 

I find it interesting to compare the two shady organizations. They know what ARGUS is capable of, and I wonder if that influences how the team and Lyla views other shady organizations. 

(You know, I kind of wish they'd delve into ARGUS more. They were too vague for me in this episode, and I wonder if the vagueness about James and why ARGUS had him is because they don't know how they might want to use him in the future and didn't want to commit to anything.)

[statsgirl]

I wonder if they are going to go more into Lyla and her role running ARGUS in the next episode or two.  It seems like a pretty big divide for Diggle right now.

I would imagine that they are planning to use Helix as one of the big bads next season, probably a minor one rather than the Bug Bad, and that's why we have so little information on are they a good witch or a bad witch.  Alena seemed nice, and paid her dues by giving Felicity the info to find Chase but if Cayden James is bad, I feel sorry for Felicity who finally found a hacker friend like her.

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I wonder if they are going to go more into Lyla and her role running ARGUS in the next episode or two.  It seems like a pretty big divide for Diggle right now.

I would imagine that they are planning to use Helix as one of the big bads next season, probably a minor one rather than the Bug Bad, and that's why we have so little information on are they a good witch or a bad witch.  Alena seemed nice, and paid her dues by giving Felicity the info to find Chase but if Cayden James is bad, I feel sorry for Felicity who finally found a hacker friend like her.

You just gave me a mental image of team Arrow fighting that one bug alien from Men in Black. I can't thank you enough. 

[leopardprint]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

I wonder if they are going to go more into Lyla and her role running ARGUS in the next episode or two.  It seems like a pretty big divide for Diggle right now.

?Don't you know they are going to have

Spoiler

martial issues! ?

[legaleagle53]

On 4/26/2017 at 7:14 PM, KenyaJ said:

Meanwhile, how do you solve a problem like Curtis? I liked him so much when he was first introduced. But now the writers are trying so hard to make him quippy and funny and it's just not working. They're trying too hard, and it just makes him seem like an inept fool who can't read social cues and can't take anything seriously. I don't understand why they think this is enjoyable.

THIS.  For those of us who watch The Flash, Curtis is like taking the worst parts of HR's personality and ramping them up by about 10,000.  I'm beginning to see now why Curtis' husband really divorced him.  Shut up, Curtis!

On 4/26/2017 at 7:47 PM, Angel12d said:

I hope they have Dinah evolve beyond the generic "badass" pose and one liners. That moment was a bit awkward for me.

You have to admit though, she has the best one-liners.  "Never grab a woman without her permission, dumbass!" will never not be among my favorite lines ever, especially the way Dinah just tossed it off so casually.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I thought the line was great but the context was really weird because, well, hello, fight scene? Like, was the bad guy supposed to fight her without touching her? And the exaggerated held pose just sunk the line for me. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I laughed at that line tbh. Who was she even talking to? The guy was down on the floor unconscious and she was looking straight ahead. It looked like a l' oreal commercial when the actresses look at the camera and say the catchy line to make you buy the shampoo.

Sara had similar lines but the actress gave depth to what she was saying..a meaning..this one just tosses around tough girl lines while posing and she ends up looking like she is trying too hard to me.