S08.E21: Guard Llama, Flag, Validated, Guardian Bikes

[Wings]

7 minutes ago, columbot said:

So you're saying...he's disrupting Shark Tank?

No.  I see that he irritates all of them!   

Edited April 17, 2017 by wings707

[HawaiiTVGuy]

  On 4/15/2017 at 0:28 PM, bilgistic said:

Two nights ago, I ordered a bunch of stuff I've been needing from various online-only stores. Normally, I might get them at Target, but I hate going out and fighting crowds. No app is going to improve that.

Yup. If an online store offers free shipping and free returns, and the prices are equal to or lower than brick and mortar stores, I'm ordering online. But if I'm going to a restaurant or event and there's no free parking (there's very little free parking in my city), I'd be interested in an app that validates parking or offers free rides. It would have to be much simpler than what the Validated guys demo-ed though. They should follow the "don't make me think" principle for their user experience.

Does Chris Sacca only own one shirt? In every episode and in all the photos I've seen of him he's wearing that black faux-cowboy one. Didn't his great-grandmother teach him to dress nicely when he's on TV?

I totally get what you mean and I understand what Sacca was saying that their app was too complicated. The thing I don't get, is why doesn't Sacca invest and guide them to making it simpler? Or maybe use that as the condition for his investment? Like how Cuban did for the bicycle company? It seemed like Sacca liked the idea but didn't like the execution.

[HawaiiTVGuy]

It was interesting because the theme for this episode seems to be fundamentally good ideas marred by the wrong entrepreneurs attacking the market.

Guard Llama: The hard part of this is not the key fob, it's integrating with tons of patchwork legacy emergency responders around the country/globe. So you hit the emergency alert button and the Guard Llama HQ has your photo and real time location, how does the cop nearest to you sitting in a patrol car get access to it and use it in an actionable way? It's not rocket science but it's a long hard slog of integrating with a ton of different services to try and make this a seamless experience. Once you've done the work however, you have a defensive moat and are attractive as an acquisition target. Imagine Apple being able to announce that the new iPhone 9 now has a feature where when you call 911, optionally they'll be sent your photo, any pertinent health info, real time location and a bunch of other stats? That's a real improvement in public safety and a huge selling point.

Flag: These guys didn't even talk about the huge differentiation factor in their business which is that photographs are a fantastic source for targeting data for advertising. The killer feature isn't the real estate per se, but the ability to become hyper targeted as you build up portfolios of info about your customer base. If your customers are taking photos of babies, you can start sending them offers for toddler clothing. If they're sending photos of the great outdoors, adventure equipment. Food, restaurant coupons etc. 

Validated: I actually thought this was a great idea but the criticism is right that their customer experience is way too convoluted. They should be straightforward offers of "buy at least X, get Y free". Like how Amazon's $35 free shipping limit often entices people to buy just a little more than they were planning to in order to get the offer, Validated should work with stores to craft offers that get people just over the line. Notice how basically every restaurant offer is about the price of 2 entrees plus about 20%? It's because it's a great way to get people in there and get them ordering drinks/desserts/other high margin goods and it works.

Guardian Bikes: These guys suck at sales and are too concerned about short term cash flow. They failed at licensing, assumed it was because licensing wasn't lucrative enough and built their own bikes because the money looks better. Instead, they should have just gotten better at licensing.

Yeah, it seems like they should have linked the fob to your phone to make a 911 call and put your phone on speaker and turn on your GPS for dispatch to locate you and listen in to the situation. 911 will tend to respond to dropped calls too, so if the perp grabs your phone and hangs up.
Interesting angle on Flag, you are right, maybe they should have just worked into their membership agreement to be willing to receive targeted ad emails from their sponsors. In other words, like you said, lots of babies, targeted emails for baby offers. Trip photos, targeted emails for vacations. Sports photos, targeted emails for athletic equipment etc.

[HawaiiTVGuy]

If Guard Llama had involved actually attack llamas, *I* would have invested.

I switched from Uber to Lyft a few months back.  I'd love to say is was motivated by Sacca, but it was primarily due to their strike-breaking when the yellow cabs were refusing to do pick ups at JFK in protest of...well, let's not get into politics.  And because their CEO is, if such a thing is possible, and even bigger asshole than Sacca.

I haven't lived in a place that's truly dependent on having a car for a while, so maybe my perception is skewed, but there's an upscale mall on Long Island called Roosevelt Field that I have a really, really hard time imagine someone Uber-ing to.  For one thing, it's got to cost a lot more than parking would, and if you live in an area like that, you have a car.  Probably a really nice car.  And it's not my experience that people Uber TO places.  FROM, yes.  I think the only time I've ever taken an Uber that wasn't home has been trips to the airport.  "They probably went to the mall in an Uber."  I went to the mall on the subway yesterday, Sacca.  Fuck you.

I have a very vague memory of a Web 1.0 website called FreeCar.com, that would essentially give you a car that was covered in advertising, a la NASCAR.  And as you can see, that concept was so successful that it forever changed the way commerce works.

Considering how much advertising costs (Super Bowl ads anyone), multiple sponsors paying for a 10K car to be driven around in perpetuity seems like peanuts.

[HawaiiTVGuy]

  21 hours ago, Amarsir said:

Nobody looks at the back of receipts either. (Or the front in many cases.) Doesn't stop that from being a common advertising spot.

I work in the newspaper business, and something I know is that most people don't actually read the ads or catalogues. What they do do is leave newspapers and catalogues lying around their house, where they catch glimpses of the ads and brands over and over again. So I can see the same appeal for the backs of photos, so long as they can convince the advertisers of it. 

Flag missed the boat, they forgot to give away free backless frames.

[starri]

10 hours ago, MrSmith said:

And because Uber and Lyft unfairly compete with taxis (and because taxi drivers go through actual background checks and have to have some "skin in the game" by paying toward their medallions), I'd never use either Uber or Lyft. Sure, using a taxi will cost me quite a bit more, but I'd rather spend more money (even if in LV where they tend to drive the long way back from the airport) on a service where I know the driver has a reason not to be a dick and where the driver is unlikely to be a criminal or attempt anything criminal.

The problem is that the yellow cabs basically ignore the entire city that isn't Manhattan south of 110th St and around the airports.  About five years ago, they introduced Boro Taxis, where are the only other cabs that you're supposed to hail on the street, which are green.  They can only pick up in northern Manhattan and the outer boroughs.  Except you rarely see them in the less affluent parts of those places.  So there are currently about fifteen Lyft cars within pickup distance of my apartment, but only one regular cab.  And in order to operate here, they have to follow most of the same rules as the regular cabs.

[MrSmith]

8 minutes ago, starri said:

And in order to operate here, they have to follow most of the same rules as the regular cabs.

Except they don't go through the same background checks and they don't have to pay for a medallion. So, I have no assurance the driver isn't going to be some nutjob that'll try to kill or rape my wife. A medallion doesn't speak much toward that, either, except that they're not cheap and serve as a sufficient barrier to entry for your garden-variety psychos. Plus, I just can't countenance patronizing a business that intentionally cheats (greyballing, and ordering then canceling rides with Lyft) or thinks that sexism and sexual harassment are "cool", among other things that I find distasteful about Uber.

If taxis aren't serving your area, then I would say that's something to bring up with the city. That's what regulators are for, you know.

[hkit]

1 hour ago, MrSmith said:

Except they don't go through the same background checks and they don't have to pay for a medallion. So, I have no assurance the driver isn't going to be some nutjob that'll try to kill or rape my wife. A medallion doesn't speak much toward that, either, except that they're not cheap and serve as a sufficient barrier to entry for your garden-variety psychos. Plus, I just can't countenance patronizing a business that intentionally cheats (greyballing, and ordering then canceling rides with Lyft) or thinks that sexism and sexual harassment are "cool", among other things that I find distasteful about Uber.

If taxis aren't serving your area, then I would say that's something to bring up with the city. That's what regulators are for, you know.

If I'm worried about shady drivers (I.e. I'm by myself), I order Uber Black. While not 100% guaranteed, I've always gotten a professional livery driver in a town car in between rides to the airport. Unless it is someone who owns their own car and livery insurance, it is often someone using a fleet car to make some extra money. Someone has done background checks on this person before putting them in a town car. Again, not without risk, but it's how I've been able to reconcile the lack of regulation. You pay for it though 2x more than uber xl  

Not sure if there is a similar option for Lyft.  

Edited April 17, 2017 by hkit

[starri]

8 minutes ago, hkit said:

Not sure if there is a similar option for Lyft.  

Lyft has Lyft Premiere.

[KaveDweller]

4 hours ago, HawaiiTVGuy said:

I totally get what you mean and I understand what Sacca was saying that their app was too complicated. The thing I don't get, is why doesn't Sacca invest and guide them to making it simpler? Or maybe use that as the condition for his investment? Like how Cuban did for the bicycle company? It seemed like Sacca liked the idea but didn't like the execution.

Most of the Sharks are willing to take businesses under their wing and teach the entrepreneurs if they like the product and/or the person. But not all of them (mainly Kevin). I guess Sacca falls into that category.

Plus, I think he liked being superior and if he gave them an offer, he couldn't be as critical.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Shark Tank Tries Out Braking Bad

Kevin O'Leary is the One Who Knocks...Other People's Businesses. And there's good reason for that on this episode, in which every pitch has its share of problems.

[Thriftykins]

Sorry for belaboring the point, but since I'm not the only one who hates Chris Sacca I guess nobody will mind.

 

Like I said, his statement that some huge majority of people at the mall took an Uber bothers me.  It's one of my berserk buttons.  There have been some pretty impressive leaps in technology in just the past 10 years.  The number of things you can do with a smartphone is astounding, but certain people live in this bubble where they think all the leaps in technology are going to make all the old ways obsolete overnight.  Uber will not only make taxis obsolete, but also apparently privately owned cars.  People won't make phone calls anymore!  It's all video chats!  Nobody is buying physical media anymore!  It's all video files!

 

Blech.  Some people are very cutting edge.  Sacca seems to be very much one of these.  Which is fine, but they act like the entire world operates as high tech as they do.  It's just not true, and a cursory glance at any retail store will tell you that.  Older things like phone calls, DVDs etc., are getting partially displaced, but they're still running strong.  Best Buy is full of DVDs.  Every business I've ever seen has ordinary land line phones.  Parking lots are full and parking in the middle of any big city is still an expensive pain in the ass. 

[Thriftykins]

The photo printing thing fails on so many levels.

Firstly, photo printing is a shrinking market.  Fewer people want that.

Secondly, photo printing is not that expensive.  I print mine at the Walmart for like 15 cents per 4x6.  Larger prints are more, but it's not horribly expensive.

Lastly, the ads on the back.  Who is looking at the back of photographs?  All my photographs are either a) pinned to a wall b) pressed into a photo album or c) placed into a frame.  I do have some pictures from a trip to the zoo 3 years ago that I never got around to putting in my albums, but those are just sitting in a pile in a box.

 

Who is this targeting?  People who make photo-collages on transparent mounts?  People who print photos and then just kind of scatter them all over the place like newspapers?  I can't figure it out.

[curbcrusher]

On 4/15/2017 at 11:32 PM, Shalmanese said:

Guard Llama: The hard part of this is not the key fob, it's integrating with tons of patchwork legacy emergency responders around the country/globe. So you hit the emergency alert button and the Guard Llama HQ has your photo and real time location, how does the cop nearest to you sitting in a patrol car get access to it and use it in an actionable way? It's not rocket science but it's a long hard slog of integrating with a ton of different services to try and make this a seamless experience. Once you've done the work however, you have a defensive moat and are attractive as an acquisition target. Imagine Apple being able to announce that the new iPhone 9 now has a feature where when you call 911, optionally they'll be sent your photo, any pertinent health info, real time location and a bunch of other stats? That's a real improvement in public safety and a huge selling point.

I think talking about integration is missing the point, there is no integration, or at least technical integration. Guard Llama is a like a personal On-Star. On-Star had a central HQ and when the button was pressed in the car, or the airbag detection went off, they tried to talk to you via their private communication network. Guard Llama is going to call your phone. Then it is the job of the dispatcher in the HQ to contact the 911 dispatch for the location.

I would think their real play would be to sell or license to On-Star and let them turn it into a personal, walking around safety product.

[theatremouse]

8 hours ago, Michael Stabosz said:

Who is this targeting?  People who make photo-collages on transparent mounts?  People who print photos and then just kind of scatter them all over the place like newspapers?  I can't figure it out.

People who carefully print the name of the person in the photo and the year ("James - 2017") on the back, so that in 50 years someone going through their things investigating a big family secret can flip the photo over and say "Who the hell was James?" (duhn duhn duhn) while also looking at a 50 year old Visa ad?

[questionfear]

21 hours ago, Michael Stabosz said:

Sorry for belaboring the point, but since I'm not the only one who hates Chris Sacca I guess nobody will mind.

 

Like I said, his statement that some huge majority of people at the mall took an Uber bothers me.  It's one of my berserk buttons.  There have been some pretty impressive leaps in technology in just the past 10 years.  The number of things you can do with a smartphone is astounding, but certain people live in this bubble where they think all the leaps in technology are going to make all the old ways obsolete overnight.  Uber will not only make taxis obsolete, but also apparently privately owned cars.  People won't make phone calls anymore!  It's all video chats!  Nobody is buying physical media anymore!  It's all video files!

 

Blech.  Some people are very cutting edge.  Sacca seems to be very much one of these.  Which is fine, but they act like the entire world operates as high tech as they do.  It's just not true, and a cursory glance at any retail store will tell you that.  Older things like phone calls, DVDs etc., are getting partially displaced, but they're still running strong.  Best Buy is full of DVDs.  Every business I've ever seen has ordinary land line phones.  Parking lots are full and parking in the middle of any big city is still an expensive pain in the ass. 

I agree 1000%. I think the biggest issue I have with people like Sacca is that they have blinders on to anything that isn't dense city living. I live and work in the suburbs. We're even talking about moving more rural. The last thing I need is an Uber, and I can't remember the last time I went shopping someplace that required me to pay anything for parking, let alone a significant sum. 

In Sacca's mind, of course you Uber to the mall to skip out on parking fees, because he's in a city where cars and parking both carry premiums. Neither of these things are an issue for, say, 80% of the mall locations in the country, but because they're an issue for Sacca (and apparently the complicated validated rewards guys), we must drop everything and fix this. 

[MrSmith]

1 hour ago, questionfear said:

I agree 1000%. I think the biggest issue I have with people like Sacca is that they have blinders on to anything that isn't dense city living.

Completely agree. This is basically why I hate Sacca so much. Really, it gets even simpler than this: He thinks everything he likes/advocates for is correct, while everything else is wrong, and if you disagree or you're not doing it that way, then you're not only wrong but you're stupid and a waste of time to boot.

[questionfear]

2 hours ago, MrSmith said:

Completely agree. This is basically why I hate Sacca so much. Really, it gets even simpler than this: He thinks everything he likes/advocates for is correct, while everything else is wrong, and if you disagree or you're not doing it that way, then you're not only wrong but you're stupid and a waste of time to boot.

Totally! And the other sharks aren't nearly as narrow in their worldview. They all seem to grasp that hipsters in SF are not the target audience for most of Shark Tank's proposals, and frankly don't care if they're selling water to fish if there's a market for it. 

[Jamoche]

On 4/17/2017 at 9:07 AM, Michael Stabosz said:

Chris Saca has been mildly bothering me for a while now.  His ugly shirt, his perpetual scowl, his stupid beard, his mercurial temprament... His comment that something like "80% of the people at the mall took an Uber" just pushed me over the edge.  It makes him look like an utter douchebag who is completely out of touch with everyone outside of big cities and his little Silicon Valley bubble.  Mark's retort "that's why the parking lots are empty, right?" was perfect.  Has Saca even BEEN to a shopping mall recently?  The huge parking lots are always full of cars.  Maybe it's different for downtown malls where you would have to pay through the nose to park, like the Circle Center Mall in Indianapolis... but most malls are out of the way and taking an Uber would be stupid.

He's even out of touch with Silicon Valley. We hate him here too. Nobody I know Ubers to the mall; at most they Uber from the airport.

I had a friend whose team was acquired by Uber - he only managed to tolerate the place for a few months, and bailed before the worst news broke. He convinced me to go to one of their tech recruiting events for the lulz - they were really pushing anyone who knew any female engineers to invite them. So I heard a lot of their engineering catchphrase: "make it as reliable as running water". Oh, boy. I was mentally going "Flint? East Palo Alto?" (Next town over. Don't ask. It's not polluted, but it is a long story.) And their new office building is far from any of Palo Alto's public transit, so to "encourage" the use of Uber they decided parking would cost employees several hundred per month. Which I'm sure just meant they parked in their neighbor's ample parking space - I used to work at the neighboring company. Plenty of parking.

[MrSmith]

3 hours ago, Jamoche said:

East Palo Alto?" (Next town over. Don't ask. It's not polluted, but it is a long story.)

I'm sure you're already aware we aren't letting you off that easy! Spill it! If you make us Google it, we will; but it's going to be hella more interesting and entertaining coming from you. :D

[Jamoche]

4 hours ago, MrSmith said:

I'm sure you're already aware we aren't letting you off that easy! Spill it! If you make us Google it, we will; but it's going to be hella more interesting and entertaining coming from you. :D

It's actually rather tedious and not much is on Google yet - EPA is a town that's mostly poor, but has a few sections close to PA that are Silicon Valley rich (not rich-rich, just expensive houses). Their water district hasn't installed water meters, so they bill based on "estimates" which are pretty arbitrary. A friend of mine bought a house there, did some minor remodeling, and got hit by a huge fee. When he asked them to justify it, they couldn't. So he's been fighting and uncovering problems going back decades, but since most of the people affected are poor (they get soaked too, only not as much), they've never been able to fight it. Getting enough ammo for the relevant agencies to be able to justify a lawsuit has been taking him over a year now. Also that water district has tapped into PA pipes  to the level that there wouldn't have been enough pressure if the fire department had needed to use it. 

 

tl;dr: East PA is poor and their water department is screwing them over.

[MrSmith]

@Jamoche Wow! I can't remember where it is, but we lived in a place that operated somewhat like this - except we all had water meters. It's just that they wouldn't read the meters every month and instead read them every few months. Made it very hard to budget and really pissed me off. I hope your friend gets things straightened out. Sounds like it'll benefit most of the people in that town, too, so that's nice. It also sounds like it's going to blow up into a much larger fight between East Palo Alto and Palo Alto, too.

[Thriftykins]

On 4/22/2017 at 2:52 PM, Jamoche said:

He's even out of touch with Silicon Valley. We hate him here too. Nobody I know Ubers to the mall; at most they Uber from the airport.

I had a friend whose team was acquired by Uber - he only managed to tolerate the place for a few months, and bailed before the worst news broke. He convinced me to go to one of their tech recruiting events for the lulz - they were really pushing anyone who knew any female engineers to invite them. So I heard a lot of their engineering catchphrase: "make it as reliable as running water". Oh, boy. I was mentally going "Flint? East Palo Alto?" (Next town over. Don't ask. It's not polluted, but it is a long story.) And their new office building is far from any of Palo Alto's public transit, so to "encourage" the use of Uber they decided parking would cost employees several hundred per month. Which I'm sure just meant they parked in their neighbor's ample parking space - I used to work at the neighboring company. Plenty of parking.

Great story.  Love to hear that Sacca is a douchebag in multiple contexts.  Uber's been drawing a lot of bad press from various angles in its few short years.  I have this feeling that something catastrophic is gonna break within the next 5 years.

Funny that Uber would charge for parking in their own building.  I don't get free parking where I work either, but I work in a big tall building downtown, for a company that just leases 4 floors of the building.  I could park in the attached garage, but that's $140 a month.  The buses stop 2 blocks from here and I did that for a while until Winter set in and it just got too cold (though I guess I could do that again now that it's warming up again).   I compromise on the cost by paying $85 a month for a lot 3 blocks from here.  Short walk that is tolerable as long as it's not super hot or cold, or rainy.

[sasha206]

On 4/19/2017 at 0:12 PM, Thriftykins said:

The photo printing thing fails on so many levels.

Firstly, photo printing is a shrinking market.  Fewer people want that.

Secondly, photo printing is not that expensive.  I print mine at the Walmart for like 15 cents per 4x6.  Larger prints are more, but it's not horribly expensive.

Lastly, the ads on the back.  Who is looking at the back of photographs?  All my photographs are either a) pinned to a wall b) pressed into a photo album or c) placed into a frame.  I do have some pictures from a trip to the zoo 3 years ago that I never got around to putting in my albums, but those are just sitting in a pile in a box.

 

Who is this targeting?  People who make photo-collages on transparent mounts?  People who print photos and then just kind of scatter them all over the place like newspapers?  I can't figure it out.

I completely agree.  Other than maybe goodwill you might have for getting free pics because someone put their ad on the back, you're pretty much looking at it once and then putting it away.  Or if you send it to family, they'll probably wondering why you're so fucking cheap you won't spring for pics and instead they get a tacky add on the back of their grandchild's face.

[SayMyName]

This episode replay is on now and I took a look at Flag to see what's up. It appears it is now dead as the app isn't in the store and the last (of 3!) Kickstarter campaign comments are filled with angry people that donated and haven't gotten any prints or updates from the company.

Who could have ever predicted that advertising placed where people won't look at wouldn't work?