S06.E17: Awake

[maryle]

Well, now I read the comments and the nostalgia for the show has left me.

1) So so tiresome all the supposing Emma fair critique. It is every week!  If I haven't watch the show I would think she is the one with a vault full of hearts and the most abusive person on the show.

Fortunately, I know she is presently preparing herself to fight the final battle to stop the greatest Evil to win over Storybrooke.

That why Snow and Charming wanted to be there to help and support her. And, the reason they wanted Hook to be there to help  Emma not being in a vulnerable position knowing something happened to Killian just before the fight.

Also, Snow said to Emma they as family will find another way to save them. Emma choose to believe in this possibility.

 Adding, this show is a cartoon it is really hard for me to get mad when character only think about the one aspect the writers choose to emphasise this week. If I do all the show will fall apart at this point.

2) the BF and Rumple was well acted but really!!  She just want her family back and want Rumple to join the dark side... Repetitive and underwhelming!! Everything in the Rumple family drama seem a watered down reddux of something else.

4) the Emma and BF scene remembered ne a little too much to a duel from a old Western the new villain come to town and defy the sheriff.

We need to see what is her endgame for the town and the citizens.  Does she want to make it like her own realm? There potential but the execution is lacking of build up for what should be the climax of all the show.

Edited April 18, 2017 by maryle
Spelling

[Tiger]

2 hours ago, superloislane said:

I'm actually shocked at what they're doing with Rumple. They made him the darkest dark one EVER and yet he seems weaker than he was before. It seems like everyone keeps getting his dagger and he hasn't done anything with his powers that's different to what he could do before. I really thought they were going to have him be the big bad after he took back the dark one curse but I guess not. I think he'll probably die at the end but now I think it will be a sacrificial death for his son or something and he'll go out a big damn hero. Ugh.

Dont forget, Rump was plotting to and got back his DO powers all while he had the pure heart of a hero.  And given that Emma nor Hook had any effects after 5A of ever being a DO, the entire arc was completely pointless.  

If Bobby didnt want to play sweetness and light rhen fine, but dont just revert everything to the way it was before 5A.  

On a related note, the writers could very easily explain TBF's connection to or hierchy with Nimur and the DO's with a simple throwaway line about using that dude Nimue killed to create the Dark One goo.  Throw in a line about Merlin being a fucking moron for good measure.  

That said, are they ever going to explain how and why TBF went dark?  Did Dick van Dyke rejext her spoon full of sugar?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Lots of comments to catch up on this week.  (Page 1)

On 4/16/2017 at 9:04 PM, Worsel said:

So even though Rumple is the most powerful darkest of the dark ones, the Black Fairy is even more powerful and of course took the Dagger. 

Yeah, the dagger which no one could get their hands on for several seasons, the BF can just poof into her possession.

On 4/16/2017 at 9:04 PM, KingOfHearts said:

Why can't we have one of the townspeople asleep perpetually so there's actually some sort of consequence?

Sleepy!  Oh wait...

On 4/16/2017 at 9:05 PM, mjgchick said:

Did they just have a Communion for Snowing on Easter Sunday? 

At least they didn't have them taking and eating of their flesh.  *shudder*

On 4/16/2017 at 9:34 PM, KingOfHearts said:

* If there was no magic in Storybrooke during the curse, how could the pixie dust flower grow?

For that matter, how did Rumple make the magic potion to put them back under the curse?  Regina had to reach through to the Enchanted forest to get the remaining bit of the original apple to make the tart for Emma.

On 4/16/2017 at 9:49 PM, thuganomics85 said:

 Or am I just thinking way too hard about all of this?

Yep - along with most of the rest of us.  :)

[Noneofyourbusiness]

48 minutes ago, Tiger said:

That said, are they ever going to explain how and why TBF went dark?  Did Dick van Dyke rejext her spoon full of sugar?

I'm sure they're going to cover that in "The Black Fairy".

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

That said, are they ever going to explain how and why TBF went dark?  Did Dick van Dyke rejext her spoon full of sugar?

Tiger Lily was eyeing her boyfriend, Malcolm, so the Black Fairy she had a child with him and banished her to Neverland. 

[Curio]

32 minutes ago, HariboPeach said:

I didn't, your post said MORE beef. I was just wondering where you found that to be true. Certainly not in this forum? I think there have been maybe 3 people in total that don't think the Emma/Killian flower petal reunion was the best thing eva. 

I should have also included the other part of your sentence, "but on other corners of the net." 

I don't think the flower petals plot was the "best thing eva," but given the circumstances, I find it difficult to believe that Emma choosing to save her parents in that exact moment would have been the better option than saving Killian. Emma is also the Sheriff and should be knowledgable about piecing together evidence and clues (even though it's not her forte in many plots where the idiot ball needs to be tossed around), so seeing a shadow with a hook attached to the foot clearly points towards Hook attempting to catch a ride on his shadow but falling off. If Hook wanted to give Emma a sign that he was okay, he would have taken off his necklace or something other than his hook and given it to the shadow instead of awkwardly attaching his hook to the foot of the shadow. If Hook wanted to give Emma his hook for some reason, why attach it to the foot? Why not hand it to the shadow instead? Emma understands Hook well enough to know he never takes his hook off unless it's absolutely necessary. The fact that Hades had Hook's hook in the Underworld was a clear sign he was in danger. If Emma didn't assume something was wrong when she was in the presence of a shadow from Neverland and saw the hook fall off the shadow's foot, she'd look like she was in denial about an obvious conclusion.

It's like the wheel chair example from earlier—if you see a wheel chair tipped over on the edge of a lake dock with a note next to it that says, "Goodbye," it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out something bad probably happened. Sure, you could try and look at the situation from many different lenses and say, "Maybe this person just went for a swim and wrote the note to say goodbye to sitting in a chair for a while," but there's too much evidence pointing at another conclusion to completely ignore it. Or if your goldfish mysteriously vanishes and your cat is wet, your first assumption probably wouldn't be, "Oh, Goldie is playing hide and seek and Mr. Mittens went outside in the rain." It's just using basic context clues to come to an accurate conclusion.

[Corvino]

The way Snow and Charming's shared sleeping curse was ended was scientifically plausible to me, because the same principle was applied several decades ago. Barnabas Collins on "Dark Shadows" was cured of being a vampire in 1968 by donating half his life force to the Frankenstein-monster creature Adam. When Adam came alive, the vampire curse was diluted between them so that neither was a creature of the night. And this was just by serendipity: Dr. Lang didn't even intend it to happen! Barnabas's whole soul and mind was supposed to be transferred to Adam's previously lifeless form, leaving his original body all dead. Instead, it was like a liver transplant, where both halves just grew back whole again. So I recognized and approved the principle when it was applied again here.

That must be why even after going to all the Holy Week services, I missed the Communion reference. Now that it's been pointed out, it's a clear shout-out for Easter! Almost as good as TCM showing "Night of the Lepus" as part of their evening of bunny movies for Easter.

[HariboPeach]

26 minutes ago, Curio said:

I should have also included the other part of your sentence, "but on other corners of the net." 

I don't think the flower petals plot was the "best thing eva," but given the circumstances, I find it difficult to believe that Emma choosing to save her parents in that exact moment would have been the better option than saving Killian. Emma is also the Sheriff and should be knowledgable about piecing together evidence and clues (even though it's not her forte in many plots where the idiot ball needs to be tossed around), so seeing a shadow with a hook attached to the foot clearly points towards Hook attempting to catch a ride on his shadow but falling off. If Hook wanted to give Emma a sign that he was okay, he would have taken off his necklace or something other than his hook and given it to the shadow instead of awkwardly attaching his hook to the foot of the shadow. If Hook wanted to give Emma his hook for some reason, why attach it to the foot? Why not hand it to the shadow instead? Emma understands Hook well enough to know he never takes his hook off unless it's absolutely necessary. The fact that Hades had Hook's hook in the Underworld was a clear sign he was in danger. If Emma didn't assume something was wrong when she was in the presence of a shadow from Neverland and saw the hook fall off the shadow's foot, she'd look like she was in denial about an obvious conclusion.

It's like the wheel chair example from earlier—if you see a wheel chair tipped over on the edge of a lake dock with a note next to it that says, "Goodbye," it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out something bad probably happened. Sure, you could try and look at the situation from many different lenses and say, "Maybe this person just went for a swim and wrote the note to say goodbye to sitting in a chair for a while," but there's too much evidence pointing at another conclusion to completely ignore it. Or if your goldfish mysteriously vanishes and your cat is wet, your first assumption probably wouldn't be, "Oh, Goldie is playing hide and seek and Mr. Mittens went outside in the rain." It's just using basic context clues to come to an accurate conclusion.

Let's flip it then. Say it was Regina in Neverland. Do you think Emma should have left Snow/Charming to rot in their sleep curses, or save her BFF whose shadow dropped an apple or something. You can say tomato/tomahto, because of the relationship, but if Emma was SO VERY SURE that the 'rents could be saved by some fuckery or another, than she would have been obligated to save Regina. But I think people would have flipped their shit if Emma had done that for anyone besides Killian.

It just seems like way too much dissecting and analysis to come to a very subjective conclusion. 

And like I said before, I can see both sides. I don't think that people saying she didn't make the right choice are necessarily wrong though. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

All but the last page of comments:

On 4/16/2017 at 11:48 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Actually, I also don't like how instantly Emma forgave Snow and David without even a little bit of angst to work through after Snow told her the truth, like it was nothing. 

On another show, we might see some anger and resentment about that filter through in future episodes.  But not this show.

On 4/17/2017 at 3:02 PM, Camera One said:

I forgot to add that in the flashback, a single Pixie flower broke the Curse for Snow AND Charming, AND created a portal to Emma.  Which meant a single flower could have broken the Sleeping Curse AND created a portal to Hook?  

I actually thought that's where they were going to go at first.  It would have been so much better than the Shared Cup of the Sleeping Curse.  Emma could have woken up Snow and Charming, then all three could have helped rescue Hook.

23 hours ago, CCTC said:

I thought Henry had been improving a bit as an actor.  I might have been premature with that assessment.

I thought he was perfectly terrible last episode.  Maybe not so bad this ep - but then he didn't say as much, so that's probably why he was better.  :)

5 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

While it's hard for me to get my mind around being okay with leaving your daughter alone, thinking about it, I wonder what would have happened if the Charmings had gone after her. I guess Snow might have had ID for a Mary Margaret Blanchard who lived in Storybrooke, Maine, but David wouldn't have had any legal identity, and since Snow got her ID from a curse, did the curse backstop it?

Your thoughts about whether or not Snow and Charming could have survived/gotten Emma outside of Storybrooke would have much more weight if we hadn't already seen Neal somehow survive (and do pretty well by the looks of his suit) with out a 'real' ID.  And August.  And Ursula.  And the Darling boys.

[Curio]

1 hour ago, HariboPeach said:

Let's flip it then. Say it was Regina in Neverland. Do you think Emma should have left Snow/Charming to rot in their sleep curses, or save her BFF whose shadow dropped an apple or something. You can say tomato/tomahto, because of the relationship, but if Emma was SO VERY SURE that the 'rents could be saved by some fuckery or another, than she would have been obligated to save Regina. But I think people would have flipped their shit if Emma had done that for anyone besides Killian.

If anyone's life was on the line in another realm and they needed to be saved quickly, I think Emma would ultimately choose to save the person's life over waking up her parents. At the end of the day, a human life is more valuable than taking a shorter nap. But the person stuck in the other realm does impact how the audience interprets Emma's decision. If the person trapped was Henry, everyone would be fine with Emma's decision. If the person trapped was Grumpy, people would probably be a little confused, but Emma is the Sheriff/Savior and saving people is kind of her job. If the person trapped was Regina, then we have an entirely different circumstance because Regina is the one responsible for placing Snow and Charming under the sleeping curse to begin with. So in that situation, yes, people would probably side-eye Emma's decision to prioritize the person who placed her parents under the sleeping curse instead of helping the sleeping curse victims. But Emma saving a human life over waking her parents is still the better moral decision, so I could accept it. On the other hook hand, Hook had zero involvement in cursing Snow and Charming and recently proposed to Emma, so the entire context of the situation changes. 

Quote

It just seems like way too much dissecting and analysis to come to a very subjective conclusion.

There's dissecting and analysis because the conclusion is partially objective. Interpreting how sad the shadow looks is subjective; noting that there's a hook attached to the foot is objective. Thinking that the shadow isn't a sign Hook is in danger is subjective; noting that most shadows come from Neverland—a place where they've seen firsthand danger—is objective.

Also, looking way too much into details, dissecting, and over-analyzing is kind of our shtick here. :)

Edit: Had some other thoughts about other discussions happening elsewhere on the web, but it's probably best not to discuss them here.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

54 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Your thoughts about whether or not Snow and Charming could have survived/gotten Emma outside of Storybrooke would have much more weight if we hadn't already seen Neal somehow survive (and do pretty well by the looks of his suit) with out a 'real' ID.  And August.  And Ursula.  And the Darling boys.

But they weren't trying to get custody of a child who was a ward of the state in foster care or having to provide for a child who'd need medical care, schooling, etc. The Charmings could probably have survived on their own, but unless they kidnapped Emma from the foster home and went on the run, they'd have had difficulty getting legal custody of her without any legal identity and with her having been abandoned but them never having filed a missing child police report. The Darling boys were trying to adopt Henry through an agency shady enough to let Regina have a child, but that seemed to be outside the system. Emma was in the state system, so the under-the-table adoption would have been unlikely.

[HariboPeach]

32 minutes ago, Curio said:

If anyone's life was on the line in another realm and they needed to be saved quickly, I think Emma would ultimately choose to save the person's life over waking up her parents. At the end of the day, a human life is more valuable than taking a shorter nap. But the person stuck in the other realm does impact how the audience interprets Emma's decision. If the person trapped was Henry, everyone would be fine with Emma's decision. If the person trapped was Grumpy, people would probably be a little confused, but Emma is the Sheriff/Savior and saving people is kind of her job. If the person trapped was Regina, then we have an entirely different circumstance because Regina is the one responsible for placing Snow and Charming under the sleeping curse to begin with. So in that situation, yes, people would probably side-eye Emma's decision to prioritize the person who placed her parents under the sleeping curse instead of helping the sleeping curse victims. 

There's dissecting and analysis because the conclusion is partially objective. 

Also, looking way too much into details, dissecting, and over-analyzing is kind of our shtick here. :)

 

And we're back to subjectiveness. I don't believe Regina cast the sleeping curse at all. Yes EQ is two halves of a whole but EQs actions were not Reginas actions and that is completely in the show's mythos. Everyone may not agree but there it is. 

And I'm sorry, I just don't feel it's as clear cut as you do. I think a real choice was presented. It wasn't a gimme, at least in my opinion.

I'm familiar with forum schtick. I meant this particular situation, not analysis in general. :)

[RadioGirl27]

1 hour ago, HariboPeach said:

2 hours ago, Curio said:

 

Let's flip it then. Say it was Regina in Neverland. Do you think Emma should have left Snow/Charming to rot in their sleep curses, or save her BFF whose shadow dropped an apple or something.

Do you realise that the hook is a part of Hook's body, not something you can compare with an apple? The shadow dropping the hook was the same as if it had dropped a hand. 

Emma chose to save the person who was in a more immediate danger and that was Hook.

Oh, and she couldn't have saved Regina with the pixie flower. They are not TL.

[Camera One]

Oh, and she couldn't have saved Regina with the pixie flower.  They are not TL.

Emma would have needed the Magical Lily Flower.  It's the one that can reunite true friends.  I think I saw an anther fly by during this episode.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, HariboPeach said:

than she would have been obligated to save Regina.

Well, I don't think Emma should ever be obligated to save Regina, so that example falls flat for me.

29 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

But they weren't trying to get custody of a child who was a ward of the state in foster care or having to provide for a child who'd need medical care, schooling, etc. 

Ingrid managed to do it.  

And at other times, Emma ended up on the street, where it didn't even seem she was missed.  So why couldn't they have just stolen her and figured things out from there?  IRL, as sad as it is, kids go missing for years and aren't found, so I'm not going to buy some magical shenanigans reason why they couldn't go through the portal and live with Emma.  

[Camera One]

Okay, alternate episode ending.

SNOW: You're right.  Let's be with our daughter.

SNOW and CHARMING walk through the portal door.

YOUNG EMMA: *screams*   STRANGER DANGER!!!!!!!!!!

SNOW: Emma, it's me, Mommy!  Have you read the story Snow White?  That's me!

YOUNG EMMA: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ORPHANAGE STAFF:  What is going on here?   What are you doing here.  Visiting hours are over.

DAVID: I'm her father.  Please believe us.  I put her into the wardrobe myself when she was a baby.

SNOW: Yes, I mean, I was supposed to get shut up in the wardrobe before I gave birth, but it didn't work out that way.

POLICE:  You're both under arrest.  Anything you say may be used against you in a court of law.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Camera One

[HariboPeach]

22 minutes ago, RadioGirl27 said:

Do you realise that the hook is a part of Hook's body, not something you can compare with an apple? The shadow dropping the hook was the same as if it had dropped a hand. 

Emma chose to save the person who was in a more immediate danger and that was Hook.

Oh, and she couldn't have saved Regina with the pixie flower. They are not TL.

I do realize that, thank you!

I used the apple as an example to make a point. Fine, lets say Regina dropped a foot. Better comparison?

Again, with the TL. I was making a point. About choosing who to save. No offense intended toward the epic and timeless love of Emma and Killian, I assure you.

17 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, I don't think Emma should ever be obligated to save Regina, so that example falls flat for me.

 

But if we're so beholden to canon, then their best friend relationship is established and fawned over by tptb.  So it would make sense for Emma to save her.

Edited April 18, 2017 by HariboPeach

[tri4335]

Why wouldn't Emma save Killian? Her mother's example is to always save David first.  Emma is last one everyone's list except Hook's.  Henry said he shouldn't have gone and brought her to Storybrooke. Her parents put everyone before her.  In her relationship with BFF Regina, it is always Regina's wishes that come first not to mention that ALL the shit she's had to deal with in her life is the direct actions of Rumple and Regina.  Why shouldn't she save the ONE person who loves her unconditionally?  Everyone else its all about what have you done for me lately!  In the same episode we see her parents not choose Emma but she is suppose to choose them?  I don't think so.

[HariboPeach]

1 minute ago, tri4335 said:

Why wouldn't Emma save Killian? Her mother's example is to always save David first.  Emma is last one everyone's list except Hook's.  Henry said he shouldn't have gone and brought her to Storybrooke. Her parents put everyone before her.  In her relationship with BFF Regina, it is always Regina's wishes that come first not to mention that ALL the shit she's had to deal with in her life is the direct actions of Rumple and Regina.  Why shouldn't she save the ONE person who loves her unconditionally?  Everyone else its all about what have you done for me lately!  In the same episode we see her parents not choose Emma but she is suppose to choose them?  I don't think so.

I'm just saying the decision should not have been as easy as it is being portrayed. Y'all disagree with me. Vehemently. And that's ok, my opinion is my own and I'm cool with that. I don't feel the same about the unconditional deal with Killian and Emma, though it seems like that's all part of the echo chamber up in here. It's good to have differing opinions, it obviously fires people up.

[Shanna Marie]

36 minutes ago, HariboPeach said:

Fine, lets say Regina dropped a foot. Better comparison?

Make it a hand, and it's more analogous to what was going on with Hook -- trying to ride the shadow back but pulled away from it and held back, and it can even have a ring on it that clearly identifies it with Regina. And then, yeah, I think Emma should choose to save the person in immediate danger, even Regina, over the people who've been under a sleeping curse for weeks. There might have been more ways to go to the rescue in Neverland, but the shadow coming alone with a body part hanging from it says that's pretty urgent and there's no time to find another way. But with the sleeping curse, there was time to find another way. Hell, if the Black Fairy's presence spawned a field of these flowers, wouldn't more grow while she's in town?

54 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Ingrid managed to do it.  

Ingrid arrived in our world before Emma was born, so she had more than a decade to establish an identity and prepare herself to get custody of Emma. If the Charmings did that, Emma would have aged out of foster care. Also, all those other people who managed to establish themselves in our world were capable of, and good at, lying, cheating, and stealing. The Charmings would have been hopeless at it. If they'd had time and the opportunity to plan and if they could have arrived somewhere other than Emma's bedroom, then maybe they could have posed as "adoptive" parents and adopted her, then later revealed to her that she was their birth daughter. Walking into her room like that, this:

46 minutes ago, Camera One said:

YOUNG EMMA: *screams*   STRANGER DANGER!!!!!!!!!!

is probably more accurate. The problem here is that I don't think the writers considered any of this when they set it up as a black-and-white moral dilemma.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

40 minutes ago, HariboPeach said:

But if we're so beholden to canon, then their best friend relationship is established and fawned over by tptb.  So it would make sense for Emma to save her.

Oh, I didn't realize we were beholden to canon in this discussion - because if that's true (being beholden to canon) then it's canon that Emma and Killian are True Loves due to the True Love's Tackle, so if it would make sense for Emma to save her BFF, imo it makes even more sense that Emma chose to save her True Love.  

30 minutes ago, HariboPeach said:

I'm just saying the decision should not have been as easy as it is being portrayed.

I'm not sure that the decision was as easy as you seem to be making it.  Of course, that could just be a by-product of how practically every significant moment gets rushed on this show.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Also, all those other people who managed to establish themselves in our world were capable of, and good at, lying, cheating, and stealing. The Charmings would have been hopeless at it.

This is the woman who was Bandit Snow you're talking about - stealing?  check.  Lying?  check (she convinced Mayor Mills there for awhile even just in this episode.)  Okay, maybe not cheating, but then again, I think Bandit Snow probably did some pretty shady things back in the day.  Also, David was lying about being Prince James when they met.  So I don't think they would have been hopeless at it.

I'll give you the possibility of the "Stranger Danger!" from Emma - but she was 10 and had already been in several foster homes by then, so she was probably already pretty jaded.  And she would have just seen some one materialize through a wall.  Not sure "Stranger Danger!" would have been the first thing that would have come to her mind.  As badly as little Emma wanted to be adopted, if Snow White and Prince Charming had appeared out of thin air and said they were her parents and come to take her "home" - I'll bet Emma would have willingly gone with them.  

Besides, you're speculation that they couldn't have survived is predicated on the presumption that Snow's Storybrooke ID wouldn't have worked outside the town line.  But I don't think there's anything in the history of the show to support that.  In fact, Mayor Mills Storybrook ID worked outside the town line (without magic) when she went to adopt Henry.

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

Cruella was canonized as the villain who was evil for evil's sake, not misunderstood, not a sad sack, just an evil gal who liked to do bad things. She didn't warrant even ONE flower??

Don't forget that time when there were like a dozen Dark Ones running around town. Apparently, they don't merit a flower either.

Won't more of those flowers grow with the Black Fairy around? Why did they just assume that they are wiped out for good? I'd find it amusing if she left a trail of flowers behind everywhere she walked.

[KAOS Agent]

Alternately, Emma could have let Hook/Regina/Henry/Happy/Random Peasant #2445 die in a selfish need to have her parents not sleep for a while. Emma sucks.

[asabovesobelow]

31 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

As badly as little Emma wanted to be adopted, if Snow White and Prince Charming had appeared out of thin air and said they were her parents and come to take her "home" - I'll bet Emma would have willingly gone 

Totally agree with you. I think that's why it bothered me so much when they walked away from her. She was a heartbroken little girl longing for a family...her parents, who could have healed that little heart, saw her and closed the door anyway. That hurts.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Don't forget that time when there were like a dozen Dark Ones running around town. Apparently, they don't merit a flower either.

I know it has to be a "sudden" evil, but my first thought was that Rumple probably woke up in a bed of pixie flowers every morning. Are we sure Nimue's flowers weren't pixies?

Quote

POLICE:  You're both under arrest.  Anything you say may be used against you in a court of law.

Next scene, Police Station.

SNOW: "You have to believe us, we're her parents. Run a DNA test."
DAVID: "What the hell is that?"
OFFICER #1: "We found this kid robbing the Circle K down the street."
OFFICER #2: "What's your name, boy?"
KID: "My name is Neal. Neal Cassidy."
OFFICER #2: "I'll take him. You put these two in that cell with the lady who thinks she's Cruella DeVil."

I also have a synopsis for what the next episode was going to be. "Neal Cassidy breaks Snow and David out of jail, but runs after discovering they're from the Enchanted Forest. Ursula bails Cruella out. August goes postal after his plans to keep Emma in pain go awry."

Edited April 19, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Evil is not a bad thing, everyone.  This show reminds us that True Evil actually creates beautiful flowers that reunite true loves.

[formerlyfreedom]

Enough. Agree to disagree and move on.

[Camera One]

33 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Next scene, Police Station.

SNOW: "You have to believe us, we're her parents. Run a DNA test."
DAVID: "What the hell is that?"
OFFICER #1: "We found this kid robbing the Circle K down the street."
OFFICER #2: "What's your name, boy?"
KID: "My name is Neal. Neal Cassidy."
OFFICER #2: "I'll take him. You put these two in that cell with the lady who thinks she's Cruella DeVil."

I also have a synopsis for what the next episode was going to be. "Neal Cassidy breaks Snow and David out of jail, but runs after discovering they're from the Enchanted Forest. Ursula bails Cruella out. August goes postal after his plans to keep Emma in pain go awry."

Okay, I know what I want my reboot to be.  Alt-timeline of Snow and Charming trying to build a life with Young Emma and then bumping into fairy tale characters all over the place.  At the very least, they could have done these flashsideways for the entirety of 6B of Snowing getting to know Young Emma, encountering the problems of the "real world", etc.

[KAOS Agent]

The idea of various scenarios of "what if" flashsideways vs the retconning flashbacks is very appealing. Creating an alternate version of events in this episode could have conveyed what it would have meant to Emma to have her parents and what it might have meant to the town without any character destruction.

[andromeda331]

14 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

The idea of various scenarios of "what if" flashsideways vs the retconning flashbacks is very appealing. Creating an alternate version of events in this episode could have conveyed what it would have meant to Emma to have her parents and what it might have meant to the town without any character destruction.

It would have fun to see that. Maybe while Snow and/or Charming were sleep via the sleeping curse. They could easily have dreamed about what it would have been like to raise Emma. That maybe they "wake up" during the Curse and find away to find her and raise her or raised Emma back in the Enchanted Forest like they would have if there had been no curse and (A&E's weird version of them in Wishworld).

[Shanna Marie]

Or, what did little Emma imagine about her parents? It's a pretty common fantasy among kids who have normal parents that their real parents are famous/royalty/magical and will one day come get them and take them away from their boring, ordinary life to that special life they really deserve. What would a child whose parents were totally unknown think? Did she ever have a crazy daydream that her parents were Snow White and Prince Charming, and the Evil Queen ripped her away from them?

On a totally different note, I just realized that we've totally neglected the real 'ship from this episode (really, the past three): the revival of Captain Floor! We had Hook knocked out by Jafar's magic. Then he was knocked out by Blackbeard. He woke up from that and was soon knocked out by Tiger Lily's dart. Then he got knocked down by the Lost Boys. And then there was the sleeping curse. Hook has been fully reunited with his true One True Love -- the floor.

[jhlipton]

21 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

The whole problem with the Saviour storyline this season is that Emma as the Saviour is fated to die.

I hate to tell you -- We are all fated to die ("No one gets out alive").  Some early and some late, but this line "Sucks to be the Savior because I'm gonna die" does not make any sense.  Emma could say "I'm going to die early" but a lot of people don't make to their 30s.

14 hours ago, asabovesobelow said:

That is a HUGE oversight!! Cruella was canonized as the villain who was evil for evil's sake, not misunderstood, not a sad sack, just an evil gal who liked to do bad things. She didn't warrant even ONE flower??

Puppy poppy, dogwood or muttwort?

 

11 hours ago, ferretrick said:

How To Get Away With Murder. But those people are all so annoying it's understandable.

The people on HTGAWM do care about killing people.  Just not enough to do anything about it.

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Maybe Season 7 we'll get MaryAnn and The Professor.

MaryAnn is (another) ex-fairy and The Professor is Gepetto's brother who had an affair with David's mom.

6 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Your thoughts about whether or not Snow and Charming could have survived/gotten Emma outside of Storybrooke would have much more weight if we hadn't already seen Neal somehow survive (and do pretty well by the looks of his suit) with out a 'real' ID.  And August.  And Ursula.  And the Darling boys.

And Rumple, who was dumped outside the town line with nothing but looked pretty dapper when he called on Ursula/

The problem with using the past as prologue here is TSTW never stick to anything ("Magic has a price!"  unless it doesn't!  [It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't repeat it 5 times every episode!]).  So just because [A] caused before, that doesn't mean it will again.

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

I hate to tell you -- We are all fated to die ("No one gets out alive").  Some early and some late, but this line "Sucks to be the Savior because I'm gonna die" does not make any sense.  Emma could say "I'm going to die early" but a lot of people don't make to their 30s.

Of course we're all going to die, but Emma is going to die young because she is the Saviour. Not because she got hit by a bus or got cancer, but because as the Saviour, she must fight the final battle and die. That's what was fated before she was born. Her parents supposedly had the chance to change her fate and keep her from being the Saviour and they chose not to. They sacrificed their little girl's entire childhood so that she could save them all and that was fine because they made the unselfish choice and gained a bigger family (sucks to be you, Emma). Now it turns out that their unselfish decision to leave their child will result in her death. Nice. But we're not supposed to make that connection at the end because we're supposed to see this beautiful message that abandoning your child sacrifice means other people will like you more and be willing to help when you need it. It's obnoxious to see them celebrating their decision to leave Emma because we know (and they know) that it not only meant a continuing miserable childhood, but it also was a death sentence.

Edited April 19, 2017 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

Quote

Her parents supposedly had the chance to change her fate and keep her from being the Saviour and they chose not to. They sacrificed their little girl's entire childhood so that she could save them all and that was fine because they made the unselfish choice and gained a bigger family (sucks to be you, Emma).

I don't think that is entirely fair since if we were to take this seriously from the characters' perspective, it was a very difficult decision.  I know it makes no sense but Rumple made it sound like if they didn't wait the full 28 years, the Curse would never be broken, so they were operating on that assumption.  To Snow, the Curse was on her shoulders.  An entire universe of people were suffering because of her.  How could she live with herself or tell Emma in the future that they are together but there was a giant price that other people are paying.  As a child, Snow couldn't sacrifice one other life to save her most beloved mother.  Of course, she wouldn't be able to make a light decision to sacrifice an entire realm of lives to save her daughter.  When they initially put Emma into the Wardrobe, it was to save her life.  If she hadn't gone in, the Black Knights would have killed her.  All they knew was in 28 Years, she would break the Curse and they would be reunited.  They weren't making a decision back then knowing that Emma would ultimately die from it.   And even if they were, it would have been a no-win scenario and I can't pronounce judgement.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Camera One

[Curio]

Do we think the switch to blow up the mines is an important Chekhov Gun, or will it conveniently be forgotten by the writers and placed back in the Chekhov Arsenal Reject Pile?

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, Curio said:

Do we think the switch to blow up the mines is an important Chekhov Gun, or will it conveniently be forgotten by the writers and placed back in the Chekhov Arsenal Reject Pile?

Wasn't it hilarious when Gepetto ran up and told Regina to be careful with the detonation device?  What did he think it was for?

[adam807]

14 hours ago, Corvino said:

The way Snow and Charming's shared sleeping curse was ended was scientifically plausible to me, because the same principle was applied several decades ago. Barnabas Collins on "Dark Shadows" was cured of being a vampire in 1968 by donating half his life force to the Frankenstein-monster creature Adam. When Adam came alive, the vampire curse was diluted between them so that neither was a creature of the night. And this was just by serendipity: Dr. Lang didn't even intend it to happen! Barnabas's whole soul and mind was supposed to be transferred to Adam's previously lifeless form, leaving his original body all dead. Instead, it was like a liver transplant, where both halves just grew back whole again. So I recognized and approved the principle when it was applied again here.

That must be why even after going to all the Holy Week services, I missed the Communion reference. Now that it's been pointed out, it's a clear shout-out for Easter! Almost as good as TCM showing "Night of the Lepus" as part of their evening of bunny movies for Easter.

Nice references! :)

 

It was a matter of execution and explanation for me. It played as if Regina had EQ's original potion. As if a bottle of wine were only meant to get two people drunk but if we all drink from it we'll stay sober, including the two lightweights who've already had 7/8 of it and passed out. Maybe it was meant to be like Barnabas, and Regina took it out of them offscreen, so the magic actually in them could be spread around, but it didn't play that way to me. 

[Camera One]

It didn't make sense to me based on the fact that we've seen it takes very little of the Sleeping Curse to work.  Regina could use the Original Apple again to make the Turnover for Emma/Henry.  

The way it played out, it felt more like if I invited a bunch of people for dinner, announced that the soup I made was way too salty, and then proceeded to pass around the salt shaker and everyone had to guzzle some, claiming it would help dilute the soup that's still simmering on the stove.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Camera One

[AudienceofOne]

On 17/04/2017 at 8:38 AM, Camera One said:

On paper, I should have liked this one... Snowing flashback, Emma and David have a conversation, Emma and Snow walk through the woods together, finally Sleeping Curse broken.  But sadly, I was mostly unmoved through much of it.  

Now now now, you can't expect The Writers to remember that.  They're on a tight deadline, you know.  This retcon makes no sense.  As many pointed out, Snow was meant to go with Emma, and she would still have become "The Savior".  It's obvious they spent zero time thinking about this because they had no creativity and couldn't write an "emotional" flashback without creating another shameful Snow moment where she says, "But it IS our fault."  Yeah, everything is, you know.

Another day,  another retcon. And like most retcons it verged on character assassination. If there's anything left of the characters to assassinate. I think at this stage, only Hook stands undamaged - even with the silly murder we're supposed to believe he committed.

Quote

Why would Tiger Lily suddenly know about The Final Battle and The Black Fairy was going to kill The Savior, when the people in Storybrooke found out in this episode?  Did she get a day-ahead news update from the Ex-Fairy listserve?

Yes. The fairy email blasts keep everyone informed of all fairy and former-fairy business - even for former fairies in other realms. 

On 17/04/2017 at 8:36 PM, RolloTomasi said:

I will never understand this idea that exists on the show and in so many corners of fandom that Emma constantly prioritize everybody else ahead of herself. It's completely absurd. 

I don't see it either, personally. Emma seems to be everybody's last thought and she spends her life running around trying to help everybody else. This does not include this season's 'Episode of the Pod People' a few week's back. The untold story of that episode was that Emma was replaced with a copy by aliens. These aliens were defeated offscreen but they may be back to host a Regina Love-in later this season. 

On 17/04/2017 at 9:06 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I also don't get the hierarchy of love, where one relationship supposedly always trumps all other relationships. Do parents always have to come first over your romantic partner, regardless of situation?

When I first read the 'Emma was selfish' posts, I was quite stunned. Emma didn't run off to save Hook and abandon her parents. Snow told her to go because they were looking for other ways to break the curse anyway and Hook's life was clearly in danger. She assessed the situation and made her decision, with her mother's blessing. The writers only set up the "choice" so that Emma could tell Hook she put him first for once. 

On 18/04/2017 at 0:00 AM, Camera One said:

Alternate ending for this episode.

THE BLACK FAIRY:  It's time for The Final Battle. Muahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!  Come and get me, Savior!

She walks into the Mayor Office.  Everyone is under a Sleeping Curse.

THE BLACK FAIRY: What the...

Perfecto. I wish.

On 18/04/2017 at 2:58 AM, Curio said:

Also, I'm going to nitpick the scene where Emma rescues Hook. After so many episodes being separated, Emma's rescue seemed very anticlimactic and rushed, and I think a lot of that has to do with the direction. 

When Emma came through the portal, I stupidly thought 'this is going to be epic'. After all, the Saviour has just come blasting in to save the day. And then Hook freed himself? One Lost Boy got knocked over? And they were free? What a letdown. Also silly and rushed? The proposal and David forgiving Hook. It's like they ran out of episode and wanted to tick off all the things they needed to achieve as quickly as possible.

I'm starting to think they're going to defeat the Black Fairy in two episodes and then devote the final few to a wrap up show of some kind. After all, most of the writers and actors are just phoning it in at this point anyway. 

On 18/04/2017 at 9:50 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Regina had to reach through to the Enchanted forest to get the remaining bit of the original apple to make the tart for Emma.

Which involved time travel. The same time travel they declared was impossible only a few seasons later.

Don't even get me started on portals...

[Shanna Marie]

9 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

It's like they ran out of episode and wanted to tick off all the things they needed to achieve as quickly as possible.

They put three events that could (and maybe should) have been climactic moments in an episode into one episode. Okay, maybe the proposal fit with the rescue because it stemmed from his disappearance and return, but Hook's rescue/return and the end of the sleeping curse should each have been climaxes of their own episodes. It's not like they were connected -- say, they needed Hook for the curse breaking to work. By throwing them in together, the episode actually had no climax and both big moments were robbed of their power. Both were too easy after all the buildup, and didn't have a lot of emotional impact.

[KingOfHearts]

Emma and Hook learned nothing after breaking up, being separated, and reuniting. Their relationship is in the same place was. How could Hook be so sure that Emma would agree to marry him right after getting back? Why didn't Emma ever think she might have overreacted? The angst didn't develop their relationship at all. It's like Hook's secret and everything else didn't happen.

Both proposals were crammed into episodes that had nothing to do with them.

Edited April 19, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Emma and Hook learned nothing after breaking up, being separated, and reuniting. Their relationship is in the same place was.

That's what I was talking about in the All Seasons thread about what they could have done with his side adventure. He should have learned something and come back at least a little changed. At the very least, he should have done something with Tiger Lily to prove to her that he had changed since his time in Neverland, and seeing her accept him as a different person might have allowed him to see that about himself and be brave enough to face up to David. Something more than just showing her a ring, but doing something heroic so that someone who'd only known him at his worst could see that he's a changed man.

It's harder to deal with Emma's side of things, since they've already forgotten that she gave up on him, and he never knew that she gave up on him. This is where they probably should have had a talk before they renewed the engagement. He needed to apologize for not having enough faith in her to come clean and know that she'd still love him, and he could talk about learning to accept the person he is now. She needed to admit that she'd given up on him too easily, and she can clearly see now that she shouldn't have because of what he'd done to get back to her.

[jhlipton]

17 hours ago, Curio said:

Do we think the switch to blow up the mines is an important Chekhov Gun, or will it conveniently be forgotten by the writers and placed back in the Chekhov Arsenal Reject Pile?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!  Magic 8 Ball says Chekhov's Rejected Arsenal Pile (I think that's the acronym you wanted...)

[Curio]

2 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Chekhov's Rejected Arsenal Pile (I think that's the acronym you wanted...)

Ha! Yes. Perfect.

[Camera One]

Did this episode have the first return of the shakes in a while?  I seriously don't remember anymore.  It just seemed convenient that Emma finds out about Henry's gobbledygook and suddenly the dreaded hand tremors are back.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Did anyone else think of some sort of cult suicide when they saw this? Everyone drank the Kool-Aid except Snowing.

[Camera One]

The fact that 80% of those people were extras was really distracting.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Camera One

[JonasArm]

So Hook frees his shadow and hops on it  and is only stopped by the lost boys. Doesn't it mean that he had the means to leave Neverland the second he arrived? Turning this whole adventure and Emma's seemgingly useless rescue mission (since he just had to push two boys and was already out of the camp) into a joke? Can we be more cheated?

[Camera One]

Yeah, that confused me.  Was he only able to cut his Shadow out because he was beside Peter Pan's magic tree?  At first, I assumed Tiger Lily meant there was magical stuff stored inside the tree.  But was the tree magic?