S01.E05: Picture Fades

[thewhiteowl]

No Description

[Bort]

More evidence that Brooke is bonkers: surgery on her brother, purposely not using anasthesia. Not to mention sending her goon to kill a helpless old man.

[TobinAlbers]

Oh, show. There was absolutely no reason for John to save H.G. given that he didn't want to go back to the future. He was given enough shades of complexity in his trying to save Henry although as Brooke pointed out, John's enough of a narcissist that he'd likely see Henry as an extension of himself and that's all the motivation he needs. Then again Brooke be cray cray so....

As long as they don't go down the John falling for Jane triangle. I'd rather it be John loves H.G. And that's why he saved him, but then that goes down the bad trope/stereotype of repressed gay men are evil killers but honestly I think Josh Bowman could sell it to make it plausible. 

Jane and H.G. I want to like them and find them rootable but I just don't. In fact I found H.G. obnoxious in his 'you can't change anything!' to John. Dude, you've already both affected the timeline by your disappearance and appearance in the future. Oddly, I was rooting for John to save Henry. Had the show given a bigger stake for why Henry had to die (his death galvanizes a pivotal win in the war) then maybe I'd have bought more into H.G.'s dilemma.

I guess they're not going with the whole theory that time finds a way to realign if something is fated to happen. I thought at first that Henry did die in the ambush but when John saved him, the timeline adjusted to kill him at the next branch (so to speak) at the cafe. The picture Jane found may not have existed before but when Henry lived, it came into existence for her to find. Had John saved him from that death, another picture or record could've 'been found' that shows him dying at the next 'branch'.  Instead it was just Jane saying 'whoops I found the real photo that shows how he really died.' Which...eh.

H.G. And Co. need to be more methodical about examining and noting the effects of time travel. Right now the show is making it up as they go along.

[Free]

8 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

Oh, show. There was absolutely no reason for John to save H.G. given that he didn't want to go back to the future.

Basically, it's to keep the whole cat and mouse chase going and part of his 'redemption'.

[Chaos Theory]

Although better then Timeless I don't really buy HG or John as their particular characters.  It might have been better if they were just random people from the past.  A random genius and a random serial killer.  

I do however like bad guy scientists lady.  I am still thinking she is in some way related to John  or a psychopath like he is.  Only using her darker instincts for science and not murder.

[Arnella]

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Although better then Timeless I don't really buy HG or John as their particular characters.  It might have been better if they were just random people from the past.  A random genius and a random serial killer.  

There have been several times when I have thought: "this is supposed to be Jack the @#$% RIPPER"!

Two characters brought up the fact that HG will have to go back to 1895.  Some heavy handed foreshadowing but I think it will just be an episode of angst and nothing will come of it since when he goes back, the series is over.

[methodwriter85]

2 hours ago, Arnella said:

There have been several times when I have thought: "this is supposed to be Jack the @#$% RIPPER"!

Two characters brought up the fact that HG will have to go back to 1895.  Some heavy handed foreshadowing but I think it will just be an episode of angst and nothing will come of it since when he goes back, the series is over.

If we go by the ending of the 1979 movie,

Spoiler

Jane goes back in time with HG to live out her life with him in the past. Kate and Leopold would rip that off 22 years later.

I feel like Josh Bowman is giving it his all here, but man it feels like a wasted effect because this show really should have just been like a 4-hour mini-series that aired on BBC America or something. Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying it, but I can't see this show getting a second season, and I'm just hoping they wrapped this up well as opposed to Timeless, which just had to end on a fucking cliffhanger. (With a good chance they aren't coming back.)

I honestly thought Jack was going to inadvertently do something that causes Henry to die. I also kept waiting for the other shoe to drop- that Henry's fiancee had a bun in the oven. That would be the only way to keep Jack's bloodline running unless he had more illegitimate kids. Since they didn't get to marry and Henry died, it would make sense if she didn't put him in the birth certificate.

Quote

I guess they're not going with the whole theory that time finds a way to realign if something is fated to happen. I thought at first that Henry did die in the ambush but when John saved him, the timeline adjusted to kill him at the next branch (so to speak) at the cafe. The picture Jane found may not have existed before but when Henry lived, it came into existence for her to find. Had John saved him from that death, another picture or record could've 'been found' that shows him dying at the next 'branch'.  Instead it was just Jane saying 'whoops I found the real photo that shows how he really died.' Which...eh.

I'm leaning towards the idea that it had always happened at the cafe, and that Jack's plan actually was what pushed him to the cafe.

The second idea would be cool, though. It doesn't seem like the show is allowing history to be changed, at least not yet. I would guess it seems to be going with the idea that everything that's happened already happened.

[partofme]

I don't understand the point of time travel if you can't change anything.

[zxy556575]

Picture fades ... as does my interest.

[Bort]

10 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I do however like bad guy scientists lady.  I am still thinking she is in some way related to John  or a psychopath like he is.  Only using her darker instincts for science and not murder.

So far I find Brooke to be the most interesting character, the only difference between her and John seems to be credibility.

And yeah, John being the apparent original subject of Project Utopia in 1980, which is right about when Brooke was probably born, is definitely intriguing -- though a little squicky, since she slept with him. Maybe they just tweaked her DNA to match key factors of his or something.

[BooBear]

2 hours ago, Lord Donia said:

Picture fades ... as does my interest.

One glaring problem is that this show kills ANY interesting plot. As was pointed out it might have been interesting for the son's gf to have a bun in the oven but I was getting most intrigued by Jack starting to soften at seeing his son. The best way to drag out this particular plot is for Jack the Ripper to soften and possibly become a good member of society that would last for several episodes only to have him have set backs.  The extent it looked like we were going there the humanity of his son or a grandchild could let Jack understand the pain of loss enough to make him want to reform. 

But this show is SO ABC, we must end our 42 minute show on a with everything back to where it was at the start and no real significant development to anything.  What now.. Jack is imprisoned, again, and he will inevitably escape, again. 

[KaveDweller]

19 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

I guess they're not going with the whole theory that time finds a way to realign if something is fated to happen. I thought at first that Henry did die in the ambush but when John saved him, the timeline adjusted to kill him at the next branch (so to speak) at the cafe. The picture Jane found may not have existed before but when Henry lived, it came into existence for her to find. Had John saved him from that death, another picture or record could've 'been found' that shows him dying at the next 'branch'.  Instead it was just Jane saying 'whoops I found the real photo that shows how he really died.' Which...eh.

I couldn't decide if they were suggesting Henry always died at the cafe or that he originally died with his squad, but after John saved him the universe course corrected, history changed, and that's why Jane suddenly found the new photo. Last week they said something about the people in the past moving at the same time as the present. So after John was in the past for X hours he made an impact and that's when Jane saw the new photo. 

3 hours ago, partofme said:

I don't understand the point of time travel if you can't change anything.

Well there's no point in using a time machine if you can't change anything, but it's a cool story to see how everyone ends up doing the thing you know they'll end of doing. For a few episodes anyway. Not a multi-year story.

[Free]

2 hours ago, BooBear said:

One glaring problem is that this show kills ANY interesting plot. As was pointed out it might have been interesting for the son's gf to have a bun in the oven but I was getting most intrigued by Jack starting to soften at seeing his son. The best way to drag out this particular plot is for Jack the Ripper to soften and possibly become a good member of society that would last for several episodes only to have him have set backs.  The extent it looked like we were going there the humanity of his son or a grandchild could let Jack understand the pain of loss enough to make him want to reform. 

But this show is SO ABC, we must end our 42 minute show on a with everything back to where it was at the start and no real significant development to anything.  What now.. Jack is imprisoned, again, and he will inevitably escape, again. 

Pretty much, these types of shows are so repetitive: the villain gets away for the umpteenth time, etc.

[MisterGlass]

2 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I couldn't decide if they were suggesting Henry always died at the cafe or that he originally died with his squad, but after John saved him the universe course corrected, history changed, and that's why Jane suddenly found the new photo.

I thought he always died at the cafe, but he always died at the cafe because John always went back and stopped him from dying with his troops.

And now we're in some situation where either John or his blood samples get sent back to the eighties to be the subject of some kind of clinical trials.

11 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Although better then Timeless I don't really buy HG or John as their particular characters.  It might have been better if they were just random people from the past.  A random genius and a random serial killer.  

At this point, this is kind of what it feels like.  Like someone had a time travel TV series concept but needed a jumping off point, and for some reason they picked a cult classic movie about H.G. Wells, and are now morphing that into a conspiracy soap opera.

[KaveDweller]

16 minutes ago, MisterGlass said:

I thought he always died at the cafe, but he always died at the cafe because John always went back and stopped him from dying with his troops.

And now we're in some situation where either John or his blood samples get sent back to the eighties to be the subject of some kind of clinical trials.

At this point, this is kind of what it feels like.  Like someone had a time travel TV series concept but needed a jumping off point, and for some reason they picked a cult classic movie about H.G. Wells, and are now morphing that into a conspiracy soap opera.

Yeah, I think if he always died at the cafe it must be because John always went back. I'm just wondering how long until the show start to articulate the rules and the characters realize they aren't able to change things (because they obviously thought they could).

[jhlipton]

13 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

It might have been better if they were just random people from the past.  A random genius and a random serial killer. 

You mean a random genius serial killer and a random average schlub chasing him -- that's what we have.  I see nothing "genius" about this H.G. Wells.

1 hour ago, MisterGlass said:

I thought he always died at the cafe, but he always died at the cafe because John always went back and stopped him from dying with his troops.

In as as much as anything works on this show, that fits with the 1980's party where Wells and Jane had always been there.

When did John have time to watch Star Trek, btw?

[SWLinPHX]

4 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Well there's no point in using a time machine if you can't change anything...

I disagree.  I think one way a time machine could actually work (without the inevitable "chicken or the egg" quandary) would be if you could go back to any time only to witness but were not seen or heard by others at that time.  That would still be interesting, to go back and witness something you remember in your own life, or anything in history.

[zxy556575]

1 hour ago, SWLinPHX said:

I think one way a time machine could actually work (without the inevitable "chicken or the egg" quandary) would be if you could go back to any time only to witness but were not seen or heard by others at that time.

It would be a boon for cold case detectives, at least!

[Dowel Jones]

And scriptwriters.

[iMonrey]

This show may have reached that "jump the shark" moment when John caved and helped Jane save H.G. and came back to 2017 with her. That's . . . really not believable, at all. And we're talking about a show where H.G. Welles and Jack the Ripper travel through time and yet this is what I find preposterous. Even if John had enough of a soft spot for H.G. that he would help Jane carry him to the time machine why on earth would he get into it and go with her? There's just no reason for him to do that when he has the upper hand and nothing to gain. I suppose you could say he still has designs on stealing the time machine but it's too much of a stretch. 

And I'm assuming "project Utopia" is/was an attempt to "cure" violent criminals like Jack the Ripper by altering their DNA or something, hence creating a "utopia" where there is no more violence or crime. I suppose the only thing keeping me intrigued is learning how all these people seem to know John and H.G. were in 1980 or thereabouts, and that they came there from 2017. That's really the only part of the puzzle left.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I think one way a time machine could actually work (without the inevitable "chicken or the egg" quandary) would be if you could go back to any time only to witness but were not seen or heard by others at that time.

I think the movie Millennium, where people from the future went back in time and "saved" people from doomed flights (while substituting them with already dead identical replacements), posited the only way time travel could truly work is if you went back in time, but did not disturb anything that could be missed.  Essentially, you might be able to take a glass of water from the ocean, but anything bigger could destroy the future. 

As to this show, I question how it really can work as an ongoing series.   

[jhlipton]

21 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

I disagree.  I think one way a time machine could actually work (without the inevitable "chicken or the egg" quandary) would be if you could go back to any time only to witness but were not seen or heard by others at that time.  That would still be interesting, to go back and witness something you remember in your own life, or anything in history.

There are a lot of "Did this actually happen" and "How did this happen" questions (what happened on the Andrea Doria, for example).  But that would be more of a History Channel (as long as there were alien Nazis involved) type of show.

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think the movie Millennium ... posited the only way time travel could truly work is if you went back in time, but did not disturb anything that could be missed.

The Ray Bradbury story "A Sound of Thunder" worked the same way.  The Time Travel Safari would find a T Rex about to die -- it would be the quarry for the Big Game Time Travelers.

[MisterGlass]

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Even if John had enough of a soft spot for H.G. that he would help Jane carry him to the time machine why on earth would he get into it and go with her?

My best guess is that the modern world was more to his taste, and he wanted a chance to get back there, even if it meant being a captive.  He's escaped a few times already, so what's one more?  That the time machine fits three people surprises me.

[iMonrey]

MisterGlass I think it's more likely they are trying to "humanize" John by showing him trying to save his son and then deciding to help save H.G. They have a problem with this character; he's a famous serial killer but just chasing him forever can't really be sustained indefinitely. Maybe this "utopia" experiment will work on him and he'll become "normalized" but then he won't really be Jack the Ripper anymore so it's kind of a Catch-22, and the reason why the premise for this show is on shaky ground.