Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[steeledwithakiss]

The same thing annoyed me to no end in s1. The guy seemed to fall in love with every girl he slept with (apart from Isabel). He's so desperate for a connection it cheapened even more his supposed love for Laurel. Don't get me started on  2x16 (the first suicide squad episode) where he was pushing away Sara then crying when he admitted he was scared to death to lose her. First it made it look like he never loved Laurel and made it hard for a lot of persons to buy the love confession to Felicity 7 episodes later. The fact that he would spleep with a lot of girls never annoyed me, it was more the "what we have is so special" thing. I know you can care about a lot of persons and have special bonds with a lot of persons, but it makes it hard to believe Oliver when he makes those statements. What's so special about Felicity this time? 2 years ago Laurel was the most important person in his life (more than Thea?!) and the one person who knew him better than anyone (better than Tommy?). I guess we're supposed to think he was delusional (too much Island herbs?).

Edited April 8, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[looptab]

Same. I don't care he said he loved Sara, or even Shado: I translate that as "I really cared about", loved but not IN love with.

But all those other things with the other women I can't reconcile with. What he said to Laurel in season 1 felt unearned and untrue; he still said it,though. I can convince myself that he just really wanted to believe what he was saying, but what about the others? The thing is, if every connection is deep and special and important, then none of them truly is. I wish the writers had been more careful in doing this, but what's new?LOL

[ostentatious]

But, if you think they realized that early that L/O wasn't going to work, then why did they give them moments like the "Those five years didn't change me, they revealed the person you always saw" convo?( I don't remember if there were other meaningful conversations such as that, this is the only one that comes to mind at the moment, ahah). Not trying to argue, BTW, I'm just really interested in your take on this.

Honestly it's something that bugs me a little, the fact that they gave Oliver moments of vulnerability with pretty much every woman he banged. Helena, McKenna, Sara, even Isabel.

Well, that's the pilot. I don't think they were going to rewrite the pilot during production, no matter how dire the situation. Plus who knows what order they filmed in?

The conversation is illuminating from the perspective of, this is the central argument they wanted Oliver to have inside himself wrt his LI. The idea that his time away hasn't made him a person any more worthy of love and trust than old cheatin' lyin' Ollie was. See, I am one who believes that Oliver trusts the Arrow more than he trusts pre-island Oliver. I think the man he's afraid will hurt Felicity is *that* guy. He isn't afraid of exposing her to the Arrow or the risks of the Arrow's enemies. He's afraid of exposing her to Oliver.

It's also illuminating because it tells you who you were supposed to think Laurel was. Consider if someone who had the kind of warmth EBR has was in that position. You would get the sense that the coldness was just a defense, and that she had little hope of being able to hold on to it because she is essentially a loving person. By that conversation, end of the pilot, you would see that she was easily melted. But KC isn't right for that kind of role and she and SA had no connection.

The pilot wrapped end of April, I think? 102 began filming in July, we know EBR was cast late July. I found notices from August about JdG's casting. JG wasn't far behind. They were already reaching into the CW vault to prepare. These were IMO contingencies.

And I actually totally agree about how Oliver seemed to fall in love with all of them, and I think that shows that they were truly trying to cover themselves. The LI had to be on stage by the end of the first season. Had to. As I have said many times, this show has never wanted to be about Oliver figuring out which woman he loves. It wanted to be about Oliver allowing himself to be with the woman he loves. The audience couldn't be expected to swallow that if they didn't put her into play during the first season. I think they immediately had that instinct about EBR but you have to go ahead and put other plans into place. This is a 22-yo n00b, and they'd already made one huge casting mistake with KC. You try selling that to the network. They had to have time. But I think that they'd gotten the go ahead by 112.

If Laurel had worked out, I think you would've seen that whole slowly growing trust arc between Laurel and the Hood instead of Felicity and Oliver. But think back on season one. When did they drop that build? When did they drop trying to frame Laurel as the one whose trust and belief in him was all inspirational and shit? I would have to go back and look but...pretty early, I think. We came back from Christmas with a new prime directive.

The absolute death knell for L/O was in Dodger when Oliver allowed Felicity to be the archer, with him truly an arrow. When he went with her moral guidance about what they should and shouldn't do. That was Laurel's job y'all. She had *one job*. And they gave it to Felicity permanently in that moment. Sure, Diggle is an influence, but Oliver is a straight boy and his fine upstanding older brother Diggle isn't someone who can reboot his system.

Edited April 8, 2015 by ostentatious

[Morrigan2575]

That's an excellent post and analysis.  

[steeledwithakiss]

I think the convo looptab is talking about happened in the season 1 finale, not the pilot. He was telling her she was the only person who always knew the real him, but he hadn't told her about being the Arrow. He also said there was a lot of things he didn't tell her about the Island, and she said he didn't need to because don't you know they had that special bond and she knows him in her bones (I know she didn't say that exactly until season 2 but it was in the same vein). That whole conversation was so no earned and really badly acted I might add.

Edited April 8, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[dtissagirl]

I'm not bothered by that convo, because Oliver was bullshitting himself as well as Laurel. His plan was to stop being the Hood after he took care of the Undertaking, NEVER EVER MENTION ANY OF IT TO LAUREL, and pick up where they left off pre-Gambit. That was his masterplan, really: hide who he became from her, ignore/repress the 5 years in hell and the vigilante-ing year back in SC.

 

Even if Tommy hadn't died, they set it up as a house of cards about to tumble down.

 

And then Tommy died and OLIVER RAN, because he was pretty set on the hiding part. Except Dig and Felicity didn't accept that from him, thank lordy for those two.

[nksarmi]

The same thing annoyed me to no end in s1. The guy seemed to fall in love with every girl he slept with (apart from Isabel). He's so desperate for a connection it cheapened even more his supposed love for Laurel. Don't get me started on  2x16 (the first suicide squad episode) where he was pushing away Sara then crying when he admitted he was scared to death to lose her. First it made it look like he never loved Laurel and made it hard for a lot of persons to buy the love confession to Felicity 7 episodes later. The fact that he would spleep with a lot of girls never annoyed me, it was more the "what we have is so special" thing. I know you can care about a lot of persons and have special bonds with a lot of persons, but it makes it hard to believe Oliver when he makes those statements. What's so special about Felicity this time? 2 years ago Laurel was the most important person in his life (more than Thea?!) and the one person who knew him better than anyone (better than Tommy?). I guess we're supposed to think he was delusional (too much Island herbs?).

Yes!  You have summed up perfectly how I felt about Oliver and his undying love for Felicity.  I'm not saying he doesn't love Felicity - I believe he loves her every bit as much as he loves Diggle, but the boy just falls in love WAY too easily.  Because I think he loves Felicity as a friend and partner (like Diggle) - perhaps him loving her will be strong than his love for previous women, but I honestly wish they had given us all of season three BEFORE they had him declare his love for her. 

 

I think this whole season and romantic story would have gone so much better if Oliver wasn't saying "I love you" to Felicity until one of these five episodes we have left.  I mean, can you imagine how potent it would have been IF Oliver had realized how much he loved Felicity as his lift was flashes before his eyes as he was dying?  If we saw that she was the last person he thought of WITHOUT the declarations of love first?  I think that would have been amazing!

 

No date at the start of this season, no "I can't be with you even though I love you crap," "no I don't want to be a woman you love rejection," - leave out all the melodrama to the fist half of the season and let it be when he comes back from NP that he realizes how much he can't live without Felicity.  At the same time, they could have started the relationship between Ray and Felicity a lot earlier so that when Oliver comes back, Felicity is dating Ray and we have a realistic reason why he doesn't go for it with her.

 

Then finally, once she breaks up with Ray (because he says ILY and she can't say it back) - then Oliver declares his love.  That would have been so much more believable and had so much more impact for me.  Maybe I can just pretend this is how it happened lol. :)

Same. I don't care he said he loved Sara, or even Shado: I translate that as "I really cared about", loved but not IN love with.

But all those other things with the other women I can't reconcile with. What he said to Laurel in season 1 felt unearned and untrue; he still said it,though. I can convince myself that he just really wanted to believe what he was saying, but what about the others? The thing is, if every connection is deep and special and important, then none of them truly is. I wish the writers had been more careful in doing this, but what's new?LOL

You know what really got me?  Was when he told Laurel in season two that he had "loved her half his life."  I was like WTF?  I mean, he cheated on her with Sara and probably with his baby momma, fell for Shado on the island, and had meaningful moments with who knows how many other women - but he could honestly stand there and say he LOVED Laurel for years and years?  Oliver needs to learn the definition of love because I think he has it confused with lust and I would prefer he figure that out before he settles down with Felicity.

[steeledwithakiss]

I can reconcile myself with him and Helena and Mckenna. He was craving human connection. As for Laurel, nothing makes sense if we are to believe he actually loved her. He just didn't, he couldn't. He thought he was but you don't treat a person you are in love with like this.

 

I actually believe Oliver was in love with Felicity at least since 2x10 (maybe 2x07) but didn't realize it until her I believe in you speech. So him being much more self aware in s3 and knowing he loves Felicity goes with my headcanon. I can live with all that happened and be pretty happy with it. I just need to erase from my mind 2x16 because that's the one thing I can't understand. Not so bad because if I shipped L/O I'd have to erase all 3 seasons and their backstory. One thing I appreciate is them not showing Oliver saying I love you before Felicity, I mean I'm sure he said it to Laurel at one point in their relationship, however they chose not to show it on screen.

Edited April 8, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[Free]

Well, that's the pilot. I don't think they were going to rewrite the pilot during production, no matter how dire the situation. Plus who knows what order they filmed in?

The conversation is illuminating from the perspective of, this is the central argument they wanted Oliver to have inside himself wrt his LI. The idea that his time away hasn't made him a person any more worthy of love and trust than old cheatin' lyin' Ollie was. See, I am one who believes that Oliver trusts the Arrow more than he trusts pre-island Oliver. I think the man he's afraid will hurt Felicity is *that* guy. He isn't afraid of exposing her to the Arrow or the risks of the Arrow's enemies. He's afraid of exposing her to Oliver.

It's also illuminating because it tells you who you were supposed to think Laurel was. Consider if someone who had the kind of warmth EBR has was in that position. You would get the sense that the coldness was just a defense, and that she had little hope of being able to hold on to it because she is essentially a loving person. By that conversation, end of the pilot, you would see that she was easily melted. But KC isn't right for that kind of role and she and SA had no connection.

The pilot wrapped end of April, I think? 102 began filming in July, we know EBR was cast late July. I found notices from August about JdG's casting. JG wasn't far behind. They were already reaching into the CW vault to prepare. These were IMO contingencies.

And I actually totally agree about how Oliver seemed to fall in love with all of them, and I think that shows that they were truly trying to cover themselves. The LI had to be on stage by the end of the first season. Had to. As I have said many times, this show has never wanted to be about Oliver figuring out which woman he loves. It wanted to be about Oliver allowing himself to be with the woman he loves. The audience couldn't be expected to swallow that if they didn't put her into play during the first season. I think they immediately had that instinct about EBR but you have to go ahead and put other plans into place. This is a 22-yo n00b, and they'd already made one huge casting mistake with KC. You try selling that to the network. They had to have time. But I think that they'd gotten the go ahead by 112.

If Laurel had worked out, I think you would've seen that whole slowly growing trust arc between Laurel and the Hood instead of Felicity and Oliver. But think back on season one. When did they drop that build? When did they drop trying to frame Laurel as the one whose trust and belief in him was all inspirational and shit? I would have to go back and look but...pretty early, I think. We came back from Christmas with a new prime directive.

The absolute death knell for L/O was in Dodger when Oliver allowed Felicity to be the archer, with him truly an arrow. When he went with her moral guidance about what they should and shouldn't do. That was Laurel's job y'all. She had *one job*. And they gave it to Felicity permanently in that moment. Sure, Diggle is an influence, but Oliver is a straight boy and his fine upstanding older brother Diggle isn't someone who can reboot his system.

 

I'd say it's around the time they tried to force her into the BC role after bungling up her character so much that she was left meandering for the first 2 seasons with terrible storylines like the addiction subplot to her messy storylines with her interchangeable trainers and just straight up shoving her into the costume and standing beside Oliver because too much damage had been done at that point and then to make matters worse spend an entire season giving another character backstory/connections/etc.  It was a huge disaster, character wise and the toxic relationship where nothing seemed to go right at all.

[KirkB]

Pilots often introduce characters and plot points which don't work or don't resonate with the audience for one reason or another. These are usually tinkered with until they become acceptable or are dropped all together and often never mentioned again. This can include romances and entire relatives. In fact I often say you can't judge a show by a pilot alone because the creators are usually still trying to figure things out. Where the Arrow EP's seem to have a disconnect with some of their audience (not all, by any means) is they said early on they heard the complaints and were aware of the issues and had done their best to fix them, but when that same portion of the audience was still complaining later it showed the EP's didn't consider the same things as problems. Laurel is probably the best example of this but by no means the only one. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Posting this here because of the discussion earlier about Oliver and Sara

 

[Sakura12]

Were people questioning if he loved Sara? I always thought he did, they did survive a lot together which would have bonded them together. And it was obvious he wasn't in love with her, nor was she with him. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by Sakura12

[steeledwithakiss]

That's what I always believed, and a lot of people I think. I don't think people were questioning his love but rather how could he love (as in in love) Sara and declare his love to Felicity 3 episodes after breaking up with her.

Edited April 8, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[apinknightmare]

Were people questioning if he loved Sara? I always thought he did, they did survive a lot together which would have bonded them together. And it was obvious he wasn't in love with her, nor was she with him.

No, I think most people thought he loved Sara (or at least cared about her a great deal), but there did seem to be a question as to whether he was in love with her.

[looptab]

Well, that's the pilot. [...]

And I actually totally agree about how Oliver seemed to fall in love with all of them, and I think that shows that they were truly trying to cover themselves. The LI had to be on stage by the end of the first season. Had to. As I have said many times, this show has never wanted to be about Oliver figuring out which woman he loves. It wanted to be about Oliver allowing himself to be with the woman he loves. The audience couldn't be expected to swallow that if they didn't put her into play during the first season. I think they immediately had that instinct about EBR but you have to go ahead and put other plans into place. This is a 22-yo n00b, and they'd already made one huge casting mistake with KC. You try selling that to the network. They had to have time. But I think that they'd gotten the go ahead by 112.

If Laurel had worked out, I think you would've seen that whole slowly growing trust arc between Laurel and the Hood instead of Felicity and Oliver. But think back on season one. When did they drop that build? When did they drop trying to frame Laurel as the one whose trust and belief in him was all inspirational and shit? I would have to go back and look but...pretty early, I think. We came back from Christmas with a new prime directive.

The absolute death knell for L/O was in Dodger when Oliver allowed Felicity to be the archer, with him truly an arrow. When he went with her moral guidance about what they should and shouldn't do. That was Laurel's job y'all. She had *one job*. And they gave it to Felicity permanently in that moment. Sure, Diggle is an influence, but Oliver is a straight boy and his fine upstanding older brother Diggle isn't someone who can reboot his system.

 

 

I think the convo looptab is talking about happened in the season 1 finale, not the pilot. 

Yeah, I was talking about the conversation in the mansion in the season 1 finale. Still, that misunderstanding aside, the other points you made seem pretty valid to me, @ostentatious. Thank you for your answer :)

[Morrigan2575]

Were people questioning if he loved Sara? I always thought he did, they did survive a lot together which would have bonded them together. And it was obvious he wasn't in love with her, nor was she with him. 

I always thought Oliver/Sara loved each other but weren't In Love. I think there was a lot of things going on with them, there was guilt, sorrow, shared loss/pain, shared experiences, history and love.  However, when they just fell back into a relationship it seemed to not be about being In Love but about holding onto each other, being with someone that knew them and could understand what they went through.

 

I think there was a possibility that they could have fallen In Love at some point if the relationship was allowed to develop slowly but the jump from sex in 213 to relationship in 214-219 just told me that wasn't going to happen.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Guest]

I've always thought Oliver loved Sara but wasn't in love with her. They had a connection that no one else shared because of what they both endured but it never came across as love to me. It always felt like comfort and god knows they both needed it. I actually didn't mind Oliver/Sara. It always had a shelf life, IMO. 

 

It's strange, I don't take any notice of pretty much anything Oliver once said to Laurel in s1. I'm not discounting his feelings but they just seemed doomed from the start. They were both trying to go back to the relationship they had before the island, even though that relationship was clearly not great to start with because he cheated repeatedly and she turned a blind eye to it. O/L in s1 felt like trying to repair mistakes that just couldn't be repaired because they had both grown into different people. And when Oliver told Laurel she always knew him or whatever, it didn't ring true because she didn't know him at all at this point. Even now she's in on his secret I still feel like there's a distance between them that I don't ever see changing. I don't see Laurel ever being the woman Oliver confides in.

 

And this doesn't even take into account the connections he made with other women in s1 (and s2 to an extent). I don't think he fell in love with McKenna or Helena but Oliver does care very deeply about people. I think that's a good thing. Oliver clearly longed for human connection and a sense of normality in his messed up world. I can't blame him for that. But love? No.

 

However, it feels different with Felicity. I have zero problems believing Oliver is truly deeply in love with her. She's the first woman to have seen - and accept - all sides of him. She's seen him at his worst and still supported him every step of the way. Her support has been unconditional. She believes in him. I'm really not surprised he fell in love with her and when he did, that was it for him. Just the fact that Oliver didn't go sleeping around this season proves to me his love for Felicity is fundamentally very different than his love for Laurel. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by Guest

[nksarmi]

The real strange thing is that I had an easier time believing the Oliver loved Sara (love or in love whichever you prefer) than believing he ever loved Laurel.  I don't care how many times he looked longingly at her picture while he was on the island - I think he always loved the idea of Laurel more than he loved her as a person.

 

I have an easier time believing Oliver loved (and might have been starting to be in love) with Shado than Laurel.

 

As well done as I think season two was - one of the things I really disliked was this whole idea that Oliver "choose" Sara over Shado.  I mean yes, Slade is nuts so he would see it that way.  But as recently as this season - Oliver still hasn't said, "I didn't choose anyone, I was hoping he would shoot me - I didn't want him to kill either one of them." 

 

But the days we see Oliver saying crap that needs to be said instead of just standing around letting people rant at him for no reason - I might cry.  Like when he just let Thea yell at him for lying to her about Malcom being her dad - he found out like 5 seconds before she did!  Why didn't he just say, "Hey its not like I've known for years or anything - I just found out and was trying to figure out how to deal with it."  But I digress.

 

Anyway, I think Oliver loved and probably will always have a special place in his heart for women like Sara and Shado because they went through things together that no one else can really understand and Shado in particular gave him hope and light as he was going through hell. 

 

I can accept Oliver being head over heels in love with Felicity, but I honestly wish they had played it out a bit differently - I really wanted more space between Sara and his "I love Felicity" moment - it felt too rushed to me.

[blixie]

 

 

It was all supposed to be backstory.

Which is dumb, and which is a mistake they made again with The Flash (audiences need to see and care about relationships as they develop) but which was their (bad) plan. They didn't take the entire Arrow lesson with them. Yes, they did better with the casting, but they still built-in the structural problem of expecting people to be invested in a relationship just because they told us to be.

 

I will never ever get why they think this is a good way to tell stories, especially romantic ones. Also you had Flashbacks built into the shows dna, but didn't use them to tell the Oliver/Laurel romance back story. So DUMB, so very very very dumb.

 

As to Oliver falling for every girl, I don't think he was in love with Laurel in the way past, or the near past, I don't think he was in love with Helena, or McKenna, or Sara, and certainly not Isabel. I think he *could* have fallen in love with Helena if she could have given up her nihilsm/vendetta against her father, but she didn't so that was the end of that. I think we are meant to see Pre Island Ollie as lacking the emotional maturity and complexity to be in love with someone, and post Island Oliver as to fucked up and damaged to risk falling in love with someone. Falling for Felicity is the best thing to every happen to him, and trying to run from it is the worst decision he's ever made.

[Guest]

I can accept Oliver being head over heels in love with Felicity, but I honestly wish they had played it out a bit differently - I really wanted more space between Sara and his "I love Felicity" moment - it felt too rushed to me.

 

Oh, I agree. I wish it had been done differently too. I said as much a few pages back on this thread - they could have stayed friends this season and Oliver still could have realized he was in love with Felicity but chose not to act on it because he knew he wasn't ready. Then we could have done without all the painful angst at times. I mean, I'm all for angst but sometimes it was just too much. 

 

But at the same time I can see why they did it this way too. It's just the execution has not been great. A running theme this season.

[Chaser]

It's interesting looking back on Oliver's past relationships. The more I think about it the more I don't think Oliver was in love with Laurel. I will never buy that a man who truly loves a person would treat someone that way. And when he got back from the island I don't think it was about being in love with her, I think it was Oliver looking for absolution. For taking Sara, for treating her like that. There is a lot of guilt involved. If he can be the man that the Laurel of past would love, then he can be forgiven for everything. I think that's way he could look for an emotional connection elsewhere, with Helena and Mckenna. And why he really was okay with Tommy and Laurel.

 

I'm of the opinion that he loved Sara and he loved Shado, but I don't think he was in love with either of them. Given more time though, I think he could have been. Sara for sure. The night and day way he treated Sara, Helena, Shado, McKenna vs Laurel is jarring. One could say that the five years changed him, but he still treated Sara better than Laurel in the flashbacks. At least, he was honest with her. 

[dtissagirl]

I can accept Oliver being head over heels in love with Felicity, but I honestly wish they had played it out a bit differently - I really wanted more space between Sara and his "I love Felicity" moment - it felt too rushed to me.

 

I know this is all about perception, but for me it was his relationship with Sara that came in the way of his burgeoning feelings for Felicity. Imo, Oliver was already in deep by the time he killed the Count to save Felicity, but he had decided way back then that he would not pursue her. Then she showed interest in Barry and he backed off some more, and then he tried whatever that was with Sara as comfort/solace/distraction from Felicity/helping Sara rebound from Nyssa/all of the above.

 

So, for me, by the time the not so fake I love you from the finale happened, my reaction was OH MY GOD, OLIVER, YOU FINALLY STOPPED LYING TO YOURSELF? GOOD FOR YOU, DUDE!

 

As I said, it's a matter of perception.

 

As to Oliver falling for every girl, I don't think he was in love with Laurel in the way past, or the near past, I don't think he was in love with Helena, or McKenna, or Sara, and certainly not Isabel. I think he *could* have fallen in love with Helena if she could have given up her nihilsm/vendetta against her father, but she didn't so that was the end of that. I think we are meant to see Pre Island Ollie as lacking the emotional maturity and complexity to be in love with someone, and post Island Oliver as to fucked up and damaged to risk falling in love with someone. Falling for Felicity is the best thing to every happen to him, and trying to run from it is the worst decision he's ever made.

 

This. I think he's getting there now in terms of emotional maturity, but those five years didn't just teach him how to be a ruthless killing machine. They also kept his emotional growth completely stumped. He came back from the island, and an entire year later, his idea of a relationship still was putting up a front with Laurel, by keeping her in the dark about his life.

 

And then when he started falling for Felicity, he legit had NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what to do with it. I mean, he slept with Isabel, got jealous of a dude in a coma, and re-started something with his ex-girlfriend's sister who, not only had just ended a super serious relationship, but had also just tried to kill herself. He's basically having all of the relationship growing pains one usually goes through in their early twenties, but at 28-29, in a super accelerated manner.

Edited April 8, 2015 by dancingnancy

[looptab]

It's interesting looking back on Oliver's past relationships. The more I think about it the more I don't think Oliver was in love with Laurel. I will never buy that a man who truly loves a person would treat someone that way. And when he got back from the island I don't think it was about being in love with her, I think it was Oliver looking for absolution. For taking Sara, for treating her like that. There is a lot of guilt involved. If he can be the man that the Laurel of past would love, then he can be forgiven for everything. I think that's way he could look for an emotional connection elsewhere, with Helena and Mckenna. And why he really was okay with Tommy and Laurel.

 

That's how I see it, too. The point of my original question was more from an outside-the.narrative standpoint, because I read all of your responses and see the sense in it, and agree with a lot of them, but sadly I don't think the writers gave it that much thought.

I'm not at all convinced that when they wrote certain beats and interactions they wrote them with the idea that Oliver was craving a connection, and that we were meant to see them as doomed attempts.  That's why it bothers me. The way they've written all of these different relationships, it kinda devalues them all.

[Chaser]

Honestly the only relationship that I see devalued is Oliver/Laurel.

 

Though I do understand what you mean. The writing could have been so much clearer.

Edited April 8, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[blixie]

 

that we were meant to see them as doomed attempts.

 

I don't see how we weren't meant to see them as doomed. Initially doomed because Green Arrow true lurves the Black Canary 4eva, but also just because Oliver was "damaged" and fucked up, and the one LI he wasn't lying to turned out to prefer vengeance to justice and loving on Oliver. But it also was pretty clear Lauriver wasn't working out, and damn this girl EBR  lights are our lead actor up like a Christmas Tree: SWERVE. I still maintain his thing with Sara in S2 was about comfort and convenience, and also agree with dancingnancy that it helped distract him from his Felicity feels, and Sara her feels for Nyssa.

 

The only Oliver relationship that aggravates me is Shado, Oliver "loved" and banged Shado because plot, and by then it was like does Oliver really need to bang every female ever cast on the show that isn't a member of his family? ( To this day I worry we'll find out he slept with Waller.)

[dtissagirl]

That's how I see it, too. The point of my original question was more from an outside-the.narrative standpoint, because I read all of your responses and see the sense in it, and agree with a lot of them, but sadly I don't think the writers gave it that much thought.

 

I'm not at all convinced that when they wrote certain beats and interactions they wrote them with the idea that Oliver was craving a connection, and that we were meant to see them as doomed attempts.  That's why it bothers me. The way they've written all of these different relationships, it kinda devalues them all.

 

I think the writers gave A LOT of thought to one specific thing they had to do in season one: minimize the importance they put in Oliver/Laurel in the pilot. They set up the entire show with that goddamn picture, and it didn't work out for them. So they had to find a replacement Love Interest, while at the same time, undo all of their Laurel/Oliver 4eva set up, without the audience noticing that's what they were doing.

 

As for Oliver's doomed relationships, I think that was also set up by the premise that his humanity was gonna be tied to the love of a woman. Every relationship he had/has that is not with that woman is doomed. The problem is it was supposed to be one woman, and it turned out to be another, so that added a good layer of confusion. Plus, you know, sister-swapping was involved.

 

I hope one day someone writes some academic papers on this, because seriously, this shit is fascinating.

Edited April 8, 2015 by dancingnancy

[tarotx]

I think the Larual picture was more about Oliver wanting his old life and knowing there was good there. It was him accepting that what was happening was his own fault and not just his Father's/Melcolm's fault.

I think moving away from Laural being his true love is the reason the show brought Sara on. She represented the things Oliver did wrong. She was a living breathing consequence. He was with Shado because he needed comfort and with Sara because she did. Comforting Sara was a way to fix his guilt As well. Both in what he did to land her in this head space and for choosing Sara over Shado and kind of causing the shit that was happening in Starling.

Edited April 10, 2015 by tarotx

[looptab]

Honestly the only relationship that I see devalued is Oliver/Laurel.

 

Though I do understand what you mean. The writing could have been so much clearer.

Yeah, at the end of the day, that one is surely the one suffering the most from this, since it was set up to be THE relationship. It's just that I'd have preferred if they had spared some things, you know? 

 

 

I don't see how we weren't meant to see them as doomed. Initially doomed because Green Arrow true lurves the Black Canary 4eva, but also just because Oliver was "damaged" and fucked up, and the one LI he wasn't lying to turned out to prefer vengeance to justice and loving on Oliver. 

The only time I perceived his fuckedupness was with McKenna, when he was there telling her he would transfer with her, when he knew very well that was not possible. But with Sara, that was treated as a viable and pretty much possibly lasting relationship, since they shared past and present experiences. I guess @dancingnancy is right and it depends on perception, I don't think we were meant to see them as just taking comfort in each other, even if that's how most of us saw it.

 

I think the writers gave A LOT of thought to one specific thing they had to do in season one: minimize the importance they put in Oliver/Laurel in the pilot. They set up the entire show with that goddamn picture, and it didn't work out for them. So they had to find a replacement Love Interest, while at the same time, undo all of their Laurel/Oliver 4eva set up, without the audience noticing that's what they were doing.

 

[...]

 

I hope one day someone writes some academic papers on this, because seriously, this shit is fascinating.

The Picture of Doom! LOL

You see, my point is that I don't see them minimizing L/O during season 1. Season 2, sure, but in season 1 what I saw with them throwing LIs at him was that they were trying to show that even if he tried to move on from Laurel, because that was the noble choice he was making, he couldn't really because True Love. Then again, I could very well have a different opinion if I ever dared to rewatch it. :)

 

And yes to the academic papers, I wish I knew everything about the writing/behind the scenes process and what influences what and how certain choices are made.

[CabotCove]

I know chemistry is subjective but the is something behind it, even if you just look at the stats on AO3 or fan fiction Oliver/Felicity dominates with sheer number of fics in the fandom compared to anyone else and Laurel is almost always paired with Tommy if the story allows for it.

Maybe its chemistry reasons, maybe its something else entirely why fandoms lurch on to something. To an extend some dynamics/ character relationships just have  better luck at attracting popularity and get fandoms that are more tech savy, talented and passionate. Chemistry isnt always the only or even a benchmark for such popularity and reception. Sometimes liking an actor  for example can drive people to ship something. 

Teen Wolf had a similar kind of issue with Stiles/Derek(Sterek) being majorly dominant in fandom.  They were extremely popular for having great comedic timing and chemistry but the show didnt agree with fandom and didn't put them together. The Vampire Diaries decide to not proceed with Caroline/Klaus relationship, despite massive popularity and being hailed as the best chemistry for either character. Sterek and Klaroline were probably even more popular than Olicity at the time. The buzz and free PR can be sweet for shows until its starts to interfere with potentially multi-million dollar spin off plans or the show's other plans for the characters/plots. 

 

My point is, what a majority fandom wants or say is, is not always what is necessarily true and right for the show. Maybe its true and right in this case, maybe its not, whether  the PTB/writers agree with it or not. Chemistry can be  a complex subjective thing Imo, yes to an extend, I do quite agree that it can be evidently there  I just dont think thats always true for every popular pairing/ship just because they have a majority in fandom. And I dont consider Chemistry to be the only important storytelling factor either. Arguably, sometimes it is not even the most important Imo.

 

I think that by 108, when the editing cuts directly from Diggle's "...when the right person comes along, you'll be ready for her" to Felicity entering Walter's office, they knew what they *wanted* to do, so they were putting those sorts of things in place.

Yeah if it wasnt intended it became a happy accident, Imo it likely was.

 

"Love is not about changing someone, it is about finding a person who is already the right fit"  or something like that

 

But while Diggle's further speech might ring  true for Oliver and are positive affirmation for him. For Feliity its not really, she is waiting for someone to change (thats arguably not an already right fit), Felicity has to wait and help change a person, Oliver. To me this pro Olicity quote, ironically exposes  a somewhat mismatch in them. Felicity is possibly going to majorly carry burdens that arent anywhere close to her own if not already, making sacrifices that will possibly put her own soul at risk. I for one wouldnt likely have much of problem, with such stories, if I didnt see it being used as ammunition against other ships.  Well what makes it any better than what Oliver was trying to do for Helena or Sara, I really dont see much of a difference except one ship is somehow able to get away with it.  If anything I think there is quite a huge imbalance between Oliver/Felicity than others, the way I see it, the extremely "good girl" and extremely "bad boy" type of ship. All too well reminds me of some "buzzy" CW ships of that trope, in the end the girl/woman, whose life gets destroyed or is set back for the romance. 

 

 

They're pretty popular regardless of bias. That said, I think if you're in a place that is friendly to one pairing above all others, than there's always some overestimating going on at that specific forum. But @wonderwall, the folks on those two specific sites tend to underestimate F/O's importance a whole lot, so they're also tipping the scales.

 

I Totally Agree.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Conell

[nksarmi]

Conell - I have said and I have seen others agree - that Oliver isn't good enough for Felicity right now.  I actually kind of hate the "Felicity needs to stay with Oliver because she is light or his humanity or his whatever" crap because it implies she has some obligation to make him a better person.  Now, it's great if someone says about the person that they love that "my wife (or husband) makes me a better person" or "make me want to be the best I can be" or anything along those lines because that is coming FROM the individual and is an expression of their love for their partner.

 

However, it is totally different to say Felicity needs to stay with Oliver to SAVE him - particularly when he is rejecting her.  Now I am not trying to feed into Oliver's self-loathing, but of all the things he takes the blame for that he shouldn't - not being emotionally healthy to be the man Felicity deserves is NOT unfounded.  However, what he shouldn't do is go around telling her he loves her if that is the case!  Either go all in or let the girl go. If Felicity chooses to be with Oliver because "the heart wants what the heart wants" even if he isn't all she deserves - that is fine.  But she needs to be allowed to make that choice, not have her heart played with because Oliver loves her, but refuses to be with her.  That is just awful and I hope it ends soon.

[steeledwithakiss]

My point is, what a majority fandom wants or say is, is not always what is necessarily true and right for the show. Maybe its true and right in this case, maybe its not, whether  the PTB/writers agree with it or not. Chemistry can be  a complex subjective thing Imo, yes I do agree that it can be evidently there to an extend, I just dont think thats always true for every popular pairing/ship just because they have a majority in fandom. And I dont consider Chemistry to be the only important storytelling factor either. Arguably, sometimes it is not even the most important Imo.

 

Yeah if it wasnt intended it became a happy accident, Imo it likely was.

 

"Love is not about changing someone, it is about finding a person who is already the right fit"  or something like that

 

But while Diggle's further speech might ring  true for Oliver and are positive affirmation for him. For Feliity its not really, she is waiting for someone to change (thats arguably not an already right fit), Felicity has to wait and help change a person, Oliver. To me this pro Olicity quote, ironically exposes  a somewhat mismatch in them. Felicity is possibly going to majorly carry burdens that arent anywhere close to her own if not already, making sacrifices that will possibly put her own soul at risk. I for one wouldnt likely have much of problem if any, with such stories, if I didnt see it being used as ammunition against other ships.  Well what makes it any better than what Oliver was trying to do for Helena or Sara, I really dont see much of a difference except one ship is somehow able to get away with it.  If anything I think there is quite a huge imbalance between Oliver/Felicity than others, the way I see it, the extremely "good girl" and extremely "bad boy". All too well reminds me of some "buzzy" CW ships of that trope, in the end the girl/woman, whose life gets destroyed or is set back for the romance. 

 

I totally agree that the most popular is not always a good thing for the show and to listen too much to the audience can actually can very detrimental to a show (GG being a prime example of a popular ship that IMO destroyed the show and one of the leading ladies for the sake of it).The writers need to balance what is popular with what they think works with the narrative. We cannot forget that in Arrow case the writers put Felicity in more scenes before the show even aired and then decided to give EBR a contract while the audience response was good it certainly wasn't as overwhelming as it became later. So yes Olicity and Felicity are fan favorites, but I think what we are seeing on the screen is because she and her dynamic with Oliver are writers favorites too.

 

Diggle's quote about love : I don't worry about Felicity being destroyed by Oliver darkness (the writers can always do it but I don't think it's a risk for her character). Felicity is a strong character and the way they handled their "break up" in 3x01/02/12 makes me think they are not willing to sacrifice Felicity for the sake of Oliver's growth. Oliver breaks up with her, for her own sake and the city's and what does she do? She doesn't beg him to reconsider, she doesn't compromise herself, makes him see the error of his ways and the strength of the great love they share because true love can overcome everything. He thinks he's going to die alone like Sara? Well ok but she's not going to wait for death with him, she's going to look for a life elsewhere because she wants more. He decides to work for a terrorist who ruined his sister's life and killed his ex, she prefers he stops telling her he loves her because if that's how he loves she doesn't want to be a part of it.

 

Felicity has received a lot of critics because she hasn't fight for Oliver, she should be the one to convince him, to "harness his light". While I don't disagree that she does help Oliver see there's another way to do things, she does it by arguing with him but always lets him come to his own conclusions.

"Love is not about changing someone, it is about finding a person who is already the right fit" while a very nice sentiment how can seriously anyone be the right fit with a guy that damaged like Oliver, especially in season 1. He was certainly not ready to be in a relationship. Also it comes from a man who married a woman then divorced her because of the damage of the war then got back together with her years later, after maybe they changed a little or were ready for it.

Edited April 9, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[dtissagirl]

The Picture of Doom! LOL

You see, my point is that I don't see them minimizing L/O during season 1. Season 2, sure, but in season 1 what I saw with them throwing LIs at him was that they were trying to show that even if he tried to move on from Laurel, because that was the noble choice he was making, he couldn't really because True Love. Then again, I could very well have a different opinion if I ever dared to rewatch it. :)

 

Of course it's still all about perception, but I really saw things in S1 that were purposefully distancing Oliver from the Picture of Doom Laurel/Oliver 4eva set up.

 

Helena was batshit cray and still her relationship with Oliver was based on telling each other the truth about their real selves. Direct contrast to Oliver hiding massive amounts of who he was from Laurel, even when he thought he had a shot with her.

 

McKenna's narrative role has a lot of similarities with Laurel's initial set up: she knew Oliver pre-Island [but with the bonus feature of not being weighted down by the sister-swapping backstory of doom], he was hiding who he really was from her, she even had a direct connection to Quentin. And she had the plotty "hunting the Arrow while dating Oliver" superhero cliché that was most likely planned for Laurel at some point.

 

If Felicity hadn't come along, I think Oliver would probably go to Laurel for help every week. Except he would seek her out as the Hood, and they would step up the Laurel is infatuated with the Hood vs. shading on Oliver without realizing they're one and the same thing. Hood/Laurel/Tommy triangle. Tommy would get jealous of Hood, Oliver would be ~conflicted about Laurel's reaction to his different sides. They actually did a little bit of this, but then I guess the EPs figured out Felicity was a more viable option to keep the "helper" narrative role, and she worked better with *Oliver*, instead of the Hood, because of the actors on screen chemistry.

 

They were insanely lucky with Felicity, because she fulfilled a practical role before they realized she was a better fit for the overreaching thematic Love Interest thing they had set out. They've admitted after the pilot aired at SDCC that one of the biggest complaints they got was how was Oliver good with the computer stuff after 5 years in a desert island? So they needed a computer person, STAT. And they made a choice when they went with the quirky sassy Chloe Sullivan/Penelope Garcia/Abby Sciuto type: they wanted a CW nerd-hot chick, because they were looking everywhere for LI alternatives. And it did work out pretty well for them.

[lemotomato]

If anything I think there is quite a huge imbalance between Oliver/Felicity than others, the way I see it, the extremely "good girl" and extremely "bad boy" type of ship. All too well reminds me of some "buzzy" CW ships of that trope, in the end the girl/woman, whose life gets destroyed or is set back for the romance. 

 

As an Olicity fan, I completely disagree that it's a "good girl/bad boy" relationship. That was what Lauriver was supposed to be in season 1, IMHO. What I and many others have said about what makes Olicity appealing is that the foundation for their relationship is based on friendship and partnership. They challenge, support, and trust each other. And I don't think Felicity forced Oliver to change any more than Diggle did. Would you call the Diggle/Oliver relationship imbalanced because Diggle comes from a more mature and emotionally stable place?

 

I'll concede that they lost some of what made them great in season 3 because the writers can't write romance and tried to squeeze Olicity into Lauriver-shaped emotional beats to keep them apart. 

Conell - I have said and I have seen others agree - that Oliver isn't good enough for Felicity right now.  I actually kind of hate the "Felicity needs to stay with Oliver because she is light or his humanity or his whatever" crap because it implies she has some obligation to make him a better person.  Now, it's great if someone says about the person that they love that "my wife (or husband) makes me a better person" or "make me want to be the best I can be" or anything along those lines because that is coming FROM the individual and is an expression of their love for their partner.

 

However, it is totally different to say Felicity needs to stay with Oliver to SAVE him - particularly when he is rejecting her.  Now I am not trying to feed into Oliver's self-loathing, but of all the things he takes the blame for that he shouldn't - not being emotionally healthy to be the man Felicity deserves is NOT unfounded.  However, what he shouldn't do is go around telling her he loves her if that is the case!  Either go all in or let the girl go. If Felicity chooses to be with Oliver because "the heart wants what the heart wants" even if he isn't all she deserves - that is fine.  But she needs to be allowed to make that choice, not have her heart played with because Oliver loves her, but refuses to be with her.  That is just awful and I hope it ends soon.

When exactly did Felicity let Oliver play with her heart? When she told him to stop dangling maybes and walked away in 3x01? When she actively pursued a life outside the Arrow Cave and dated some other guy? When did Oliver keep her from having a choice? When he took himself out of the running completely and told her he wanted her to be happy with someone else? All he's done this season is be a big dumb martyr 

 

And I never understood the argument that someone "doesn't deserve" someone else's love. It's one thing to say that Oliver is not in a good place emotionally to be in a relationship, but to say he's not good enough for Felicity puts her on a pedestal and that's really not fair to anyone. If I recall correctly, you liked Oliver/Sara. Why was it acceptable for them to be in a relationship but not Oliver/Felicity? Because they were both equally screwed up? I don't see how that's any healthier.

 

As for Felicity staying with Oliver to "save" him, I haven't seen anyone here make that argument, so I have no idea where that's coming from.

Edited April 9, 2015 by lemotomato

[nksarmi]

lemotomato - I was specifically referring to what some of the most extreme ship comments I have seen seem to want for Felicity.  And while I don't remember seeing people here say that about Felicity - I don't really consider this place extreme.  However, go over to Arrow's Facebook page and scroll through some of the comments after Felicity slept with Ray and you will see what I mean - it's filthy and awful.

 

But a lot of my comment was to point out that not everyone views olicity with rose colored glasses and can't see the flaws of the relationship.  I mean yes, for two seasons they had a wonderful building friendship that I can believe turned into love.  BUT that does NOT mean Oliver is in a healthy place for a relationship and that Felicity should be with him yet.  I mean, sure - they could have played it that way, but they didn't.

 

From what we have been shown this season, Conell is actually correct - Felicity and Oliver were not the "right fit" at the "right time" THIS year.  That doesn't mean they won't be in the future. It's interesting that Diggle and Lyla have been shown as being right, and then wrong, and then right again.  So while I think Diggle is correct - love isn't about changing someone - I think he would even say, sometimes the feelings are right, the person is right, but the timing is wrong.  That seems to be what they choose to do with Oliver and Felicity this season.

 

In regards to "doesn't deserve" someone's love or not being "good enough" for someone - I think that's an easy concept.  Pre-island Oliver did not deserve Laurel's love because he was cheating on her.  That doesn't mean she didn't love him - but she deserved better.  Many people here believe that Ray does not deserve Felicity and that he isn't good enough for her.  It really isn't that hard to apply that concept to Oliver as well. 

 

-Oliver needs to stop being self-loathing.

-Oliver needs to embrace life outside of being the Arrow.

-Oliver needs to realize that when you tell a girl you love her and then say you can't be with her, you ARE jerking her around.  If you won't BE with her, don't declare your feelings for her.  End of story. 

-Oliver needs to grasp that one failed date does not doom a relationship.

-Oliver needs to stop with the whole, if I can't make her happy - I'll step aside and let someone else try nonsense.  It's obvious Felicity is trying to be with someone else because she can't stand the idea of waiting for Oliver but she also loves him.  So, the only way someone else can make Felicity happy is for her feelings for Oliver to end.  How can she do that if she sees him every day? If Oliver meant business, he would ask Felicity to leave Team Arrow.

-Oliver needs to stop trying to have his cake and eat it too. Like I said, if Oliver meant business about wanting Felicity to move on and be happy, he would ask her to leave because there is no way she can if they stay in each other's lives.  He is keeping the emotional attachment going with Felicity because he needs her and can't stand to live without her without giving her the physical relationship and commitment that would be needed to complete the deal. 

-Oliver needs to stop being selfish under the guise of being selfless.  What Oliver is doing right now is really all about Oliver - not Felicity.  It would have been one thing if all this stuff with Ra's exploded and Oliver said, "Let me deal with this first and make sure Thea is safe and then you and I will see what we can be to each other if you are willing to wait for me."  But Oliver didn't say that.  He refused to be with Felicity when he was just fighting plain old run of the mill bad guys.  He knows he wants Felicity and needs Felicity, but doesn't know how to deal with being vulnerable like that and still be a hero.  He could choose to find a way to balance all of that and be with her, but instead he selfishly gets what he needs from her without giving her what she wants/needs from him.  There are a lot of good things about Oliver - and his friendship, trust, and partnership with Felicity is solid.  But he is still being selfish and only when that changes will I be able to look at them and not sometimes think "She should really quit the team and go get over him.  She really does deserves better than this."

Edited April 9, 2015 by nksarmi

[NumberCruncher]

As an Olicity fan, I completely disagree that it's a "good girl/bad boy" relationship. That was what Lauriver was supposed to be in season 1, IMHO. What I and many others have said about what makes Olicity appealing is that the foundation for their relationship is based on friendship and partnership. They challenge, support, and trust each other. And I don't think Felicity forced Oliver to change any more than Diggle did. Would you call the Diggle/Oliver relationship imbalanced because Diggle comes from a more mature and emotionally stable place?

Thank you for pointing this out because it was made very clear starting in the pilot episode that Laurel was the good girl always trying to smooth out the bad boy in Oliver. Cue Oliver's "Laurel, you always saw the best in me" spiel at his welcome home party. All of the Oliver/Laurel flashback scenes had this same tone as well. Felicity has never asked Oliver not to be what he is--even when she knew he was a killer. Same with Diggle, although he often questioned the morality of Oliver's methods.

 

As for Felicity staying with Oliver to "save" him, I haven't seen anyone here make that argument, so I have no idea where that's coming from.

I've never seen this either--even on Tumblr (the shippiest of all shipper havens). There has always been commentary on Felicity being a light, but it's been more along of the lines of her helping him believe in himself or overcome his doubts, not stop being a vigilante bad boy.

[lemotomato]

I've never seen this either--even on Tumblr (the shippiest of all shipper havens). There has always been commentary on Felicity being a light, but it's been more along of the lines of her helping him believe in himself or overcome his doubts, not stop being a vigilante bad boy.

Yeah, I see the "light" metaphor as more of illuminating his better side/a better way to do things rather than "an angelic light from heaven magically making him better".

 

@nksarmi: While I agree with your points about things Oliver needs to do to improve himself, I feel that your points about what he needs to do for Felicity-- kicking her off Team Arrow to spare her feelings?-- sound pretty paternalistic. If Felicity felt that she can't deal with the pain of not being with Oliver, that being around him keeps her from moving on with her life, she would have chosen to quit Team Arrow. If Felicity wanted something better, She would (and did try to) go get something better. What bothers me about the whole "she deserves better/he doesn't deserve her" argument is that it takes away a lot of Felicity's agency. It makes it sound like she doesn't know what she wants, or that she's stupid/weak for sticking around, when in fact, what we've been shown is that she's pretty good at compartmentalizing her feelings and she stays because she wants to, because she believes in the mission and the man, even when he's being a total idiot.

Edited April 9, 2015 by lemotomato

[nksarmi]

Yeah, I see the "light" metaphor as more of illuminating his better side/a better way to do things rather than "an angelic light from heaven magically making him better".

 

@nksarmi: While I agree with your points about things Oliver needs to do to improve himself, I feel that your points about what he needs to do about Felicity-- kicking her off Team Arrow to spare her feelings?-- pretty paternalistic. If Felicity felt that she can't deal with the pain of not being with Oliver, that being around him keeps her from moving on with her life, she would have chosen to quit Team Arrow. If Felicity wanted something better, She would (and did try to) go get something better. What bothers me about the whole "she deserves better/he doesn't deserve her" argument is that it takes away a lot of Felicity's agency. It makes it sound like she doesn't know what she wants, or that she's stupid/weak for sticking around, when in fact, what we've been shown is that she's pretty good at compartmentalizing her feelings and she stays because she wants to, because she believes in the mission and the man, even when he's being a total idiot.

Well honestly Oliver has proven himself to be paternalistic quiet often lol.  But sometimes the owness of ending a relationship IS on the person who only wants to go halfway in.  Yes, Felicity could choose not to be strung around and get some space to deal with her emotions, but while I love Felicity - she does have some weaknesses and one of them seems to be "the need to be needed." 

 

You see, I believe that olicity - THIS season - is being portrayed as the essence of a dysfunctional relationship.  Oliver needs Felicity, but won't risk everything it would mean to be her man.  Felicity needs to be needed and feel important to a cause (her flashback showed this as does her relationship with Ray) so she gets that from Oliver, but she isn't being honest with herself if she thinks she is getting everything she wants from him and that she is handling this "be my partner, just not my lover, even though I love you more than anything else in the world" stuff he is spilling without it crushing her heart.

 

So the owness has to be on one of them to be the grownup and say "this is a soul-crushing dynamic and it needs to change or end."  Could Felicity do that?  Heck yes.  But instead of doing that, she went out and tried to replace what she wasn't getting from Oliver with Ray so she could keep her emotional attachment with Oliver going while pretending she was doing ok with the way things were. (And now that I have thought out it like that - this is the biggest reason why Felicity needs to break up with Ray stat!)

 

When I said Oliver should put his money where his mouth is and stop being selfish - I was just addressing the fact that IF he meant business, that is what he would have done.  But the thing is Oliver doesn't mean business.  He doesn't want Felicity to go be happy with someone else.  He does want to be with her.  He knows he can't live without her.  He just won't act on it and I believe that is largely because he is selfishly getting enough from Felicity (emotionally) to not go all-in. 

[AyChihuahua]

"He doesn't want Felicity to go be happy with someone else."

 

What in his actions indicate that?  Obviously he was bummed about her dating someone else, but I never saw him being anything but supportive until he freaked out about the ATOM thing, but that was actually going back to wanting her to be happy even if with someone else, and thinking another vigilante won't be able to give her that.  I thought he was quite ridiculously UNselfish about all that, and deciding to take a little happiness for himself would have been a very positive thing for everyone...except Ray, who would have been dropped like a hot potato.

[nksarmi]

"He doesn't want Felicity to go be happy with someone else."

 

What in his actions indicate that?  Obviously he was bummed about her dating someone else, but I never saw him being anything but supportive until he freaked out about the ATOM thing, but that was actually going back to wanting her to be happy even if with someone else, and thinking another vigilante won't be able to give her that.  I thought he was quite ridiculously UNselfish about all that, and deciding to take a little happiness for himself would have been a very positive thing for everyone...except Ray, who would have been dropped like a hot potato.

Everything? 

 

He might be willing to accept Felicity going and finding happiness with someone else, but that is most certainly NOT what he wants.  I think I have given a very detailed analysis about how poorly I think olicity is being written this season and why it is unhealthy for both of them.  I have also explained why Oliver is indeed being selfish.  There is a big difference between what some on accepts and what someone wants.  It is obvious these are two very different things for Oliver and Felicity when it comes to how they deal with each other.

[ostentatious]

Yeah, I was talking about the conversation in the mansion in the season 1 finale. Still, that misunderstanding aside, the other points you made seem pretty valid to me, @ostentatious. Thank you for your answer :)

 

So sorry. I have to admit that it’s difficult to process unearned moments like that one. I think that what you have throughout the first season is, as I’ve said, contingencies with Felicity, Helena, McKenna, but you also have Laurel as a contingency. The prods may not have wanted her, but they couldn’t replace her yet. The network had a longstanding relationship with her. WB/DC has a longstanding relationship with the character. While the actual people who day to day had to put the show together figured out very early she had to be replaced and who the best person was to replace her, it’s not entirely their decision. I think what they were doing is kind of like…if I go to a trade show and there’s this upstart vendor with great technology that I think could replace a current vendor who needs replacing. I make my case up the chain, up the chain gives me the leeway to keep it under consideration, I start shaping my processes to accommodate *both* vendors for a while, proving slowly that the new vendor is capable and the product is improved…season two you can see that effort expanding beyond simply giving Felicity the important relationship with him but proving that, at least wrt Oliver, Laurel was unnecessary. She sat out several eps, they gave her very few scenes with him. And then the much overlooked 214…which I'll get to in a bit.

 

I think the writers gave A LOT of thought to one specific thing they had to do in season one: minimize the importance they put in Oliver/Laurel in the pilot. They set up the entire show with that goddamn picture, and it didn't work out for them. So they had to find a replacement Love Interest, while at the same time, undo all of their Laurel/Oliver 4eva set up, without the audience noticing that's what they were doing.

 

As for Oliver's doomed relationships, I think that was also set up by the premise that his humanity was gonna be tied to the love of a woman. Every relationship he had/has that is not with that woman is doomed. The problem is it was supposed to be one woman, and it turned out to be another, so that added a good layer of confusion.

 

YAAAAAS. This is it exactly.

 

Consider what Stephen said a few weeks back:

 

 

Both Laurel and Sara were elements of his past.  Obviously, Sara and Oliver tried to rekindle things.  But, both of those relationships really rely heavily upon the type of person that he was before he left.  As he has become more accepting, less introverted and less damaged by what happened to him the five years that he was away, the guiding principle in that transformation has been Felicity… Before this season, when I said, “There is one woman in Oliver’s life this year, and that is Felicity,” I don’t see that changing.

 

Oliver was always supposed to have a Transformation. That’s his character arc.And he was always supposed to have a Guiding Principle in that transformation, and it was always supposed to be one woman. Which again...how fucked do you think Trollenheim et al felt, knowing that Laurel was never gonna work, knowing it so soon?  

 

Regarding 214, I think it got lost at the time, but that whole “I am done running after you” speech from Oliver to Laurel in 214 is interesting. Most of us were just like “Since when is he running after her?” and arguing about who was shittier, Laurel, Sara, or Oliver. But from the show’s perspective, from his internal perspective, I think they consider that the moment when onscreen caught up to offscreen and their intent aligned. Also interesting that just before this time you had the AK interview (Jan 2014) where he was asked about Olicity and responded that he had learned from Berlanti that you should have a really great plan, but also know when to let that plan go.

 

In 214 in that one line he reframes the entire L/O relationship. He's no longer seeking her good opinion as part of his healthy maturation and hero's journey. No longer is she the source of any inspiration. Any illusions he had about that in season one are gone. He sees it for what it was: her punishing him and him feeling like he had to endure it because he made her this way. He was running after her looking for forgiveness from her, not being inspired by her old belief in his essential goodness and rightfully, healthily wanting to get it back, which is what they tried to sell at first. And it changes the way that whole “her photo is his talisman” thing must be interpreted. Truly, he saw their relationship through rose-colored lenses on the island. He forgot the reasons he resisted the idea of a permanent relationship with her. He has examined how he feels and this is his answer.

 

And that is probably why MG and SA both heavily promoted that ep/hallway scene. For them, on set and in universe, that was when it became official.

 

My point is, what a majority fandom wants or say is, is not always what is necessarily true and right for the show. Maybe its true and right in this case, maybe its not, whether  the PTB/writers agree with it or not. Chemistry can be  a complex subjective thing Imo, yes I do agree that it can be evidently there to an extend, I just dont think thats always true for every popular pairing/ship just because they have a majority in fandom. And I dont consider Chemistry to be the only important storytelling factor either. Arguably, sometimes it is not even the most important Imo.

 

"Love is not about changing someone, it is about finding a person who is already the right fit"  or something like that

 

But while Diggle's further speech might ring  true for Oliver and are positive affirmation for him. For Feliity its not really, she is waiting for someone to change (thats arguably not an already right fit), Felicity has to wait and help change a person, Oliver. To me this pro Olicity quote, ironically exposes  a somewhat mismatch in them. Felicity is possibly going to majorly carry burdens that arent anywhere close to her own if not already, making sacrifices that will possibly put her own soul at risk. 

 

First, I think in this case what the fandom wanted was also what TPTB wanted, so it was for the right reasons. More important than O/F’s chemistry was O/L’s lack thereof. That was the emergency. O/F's chemistry, while strong, is really of secondary importance. If Felicity had never existed, O/L's unsuitability and the impossibility of their relationship carrying the show would've still been dealt with somehow.

 

I think the crucial difference on the "changing or saving a person" is that Captain Save a Ho was *actively* trying to change Helena/Sara. That’s what Diggle was talking about. Oliver has changed as a result of Felicity’s presence in his life, but not because she took him on as a fixer-upper project. Felicity set boundaries for working with him, i.e. that she wasn’t going to support activities she felt were unethical. And then she walked away. If she had crumbled when he tried to physically intimidate her with that reboot his system line, THEN she would’ve been more like Oliver, hanging on too long. But she walked away, and it was Oliver’s choice to decide if she was important enough to go after. And when he wanted to back away from their relationship but still kind of keep her dangling, she set a boundary and walked away. Again. 

 

Some of this comes down to your concept of who Oliver really is. Did Felicity change this guy, or did being around her greatly facilitate his healing and completely appropriate maturation process? 

 

Any of y'all know Sondheim's Company? It comes down to this line, from Sorry/Grateful:

 

You'll always be what you always were

Which has nothing to do with/all to do with

Her.

 

My view of Oliver is Raisa's: maybe he's not a good boy, but he has a good heart. Everything else aside, lack of boundaries set by parents, giant fuckups, probable undiagnosed ADHD...at the base of it, he has a good heart. His core self can be trusted. But he doesn't trust that core self.

 

And Felicity shares this opinion of his heart:

 

Unfortunately, you don't really have the qualifications to run Queen Consolidated, but what you do have is passion.

You care about the company and the people that work there.

That's what you have to get across to them.

You got to speak from the heart.

 

Now arguments about whether or not he actually gives a single fuck about QC or not aside, this statement to me is clearly really about his relationship with Felicity. He has to trust his heart, not be afraid of his own feelings...this is getting so long and rambly, but you know who, from his perspective, is the fuckup? Who can't be trusted? It's the guy who fucked around on Laurel. It's the guy who knocked up some girl with his carelessness and then she had a miscarriage, the thought of which hurt him. It's the guy who destroyed the Lance family, the guy who got Sara "killed" twice and who put her at the beginning of a path that has led to her being an assassin, whose father murdered a dude and then killed himself for his sake, who just had to have sex with Shado thus fucking things up with his bro Slade, who got Shado killed, whose actions brought on Slade's wrath and thus got the city destroyed and many many people killed including his mom.

 

That guy is Oliver. Not the Arrow. The Arrow is not dangerous to...lbr...women. Look at all these hurt, dead women. From Oliver's perspective, Oliver did that. 

 

That is why Oliver is afraid of OLIVER. The Arrow is his escape. The Arrow is the one he can trust, because the Arrow doesn't feel passion. The Arrow slaps water. The Arrow is under control. Oliver had no control over his feelings, passions, actions, and look at all that happened. 

 

So, for me, what Felicity has done for Oliver isn't change him or save him, but allowed him to be the person he's always been. This is why it is so difficult for me to imagine that they didn't know what they were doing with the "I still feel like I can trust you" scene. That is the moment that sets Oliver on the path toward healing. 

Edited April 9, 2015 by ostentatious

[blixie]

 

but that whole “I am done running after you” speech from Oliver to Laurel in 214 is interesting. Most of us were just like “Since when is he running after her?” and arguing about who was shittier, Laurel, Sara, or Oliver. But from the show’s perspective, from his internal perspective, I think they consider that the moment when onscreen caught up to offscreen and their intent aligned.

 

Definitely I feel like Amell's own perspective on that came through pretty strong: it was DONE, they are never EVER getting back together. But yeah Oliver was so preoccupied with earning forgiveness for being the cad Oliver Queen, and S1 and 2 slowly showed him that whatever he and Laurel had (history, certainly and most of it really BAD), it wasn't something he needed to measure his worth or values by anymore, especially when he had much stronger anchors for that in Diggle and Felicity, and Thea/Moira. It was very easy to pivot from Laurel, because they'd already introduced legit alternatives for the Hero's transformation, though I don't subscribe or accept it happened because of, or has to be soley ascribed to ONE WOMAN. Felicity is a huge piece, the essential piece, but not the ONLY piece.

[Guest]

While I've not enjoyed Olicity as much as I think I could have this season, not once have I considered them unhealthy. I see two people clearly wanting to be together and hurting desperately because they're not, as well as angry about the reasons why, but I've never seen anything unhealthy.

 

IMO, what Laurel and Oliver did in s1 was unhealthy because their relationship was always a toxic mess since the moment he slept with her sister, and then even more so what they did to Tommy. Just remembering Oliver telling Tommy to give Laurel another shot and then going to see her instead is just so gross. Yuck. Talk about messed up.

 

I mean, sure, this season Oliver has been a stubborn dick at times and Felicity has lashed out in cruel ways but when you strip that back, it's just a reaction of how badly they want to be together when they can't. It's all mixed up in frustration and yearning. I understand it.

 

I should say I'm not negating anyone's opinion here. Just I find it interesting how we all perceive the relationships differently.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Guest

[CabotCove]

They challenge, support, and trust each other. And I don't think Felicity forced Oliver to change any more than Diggle did. Would you call the Diggle/Oliver relationship imbalanced because Diggle comes from a more mature and emotionally stable place?

 

I would think that the beats are different with a romantic relationship, with that kind of relationship you are trying to built a future and life and future with someone, a friendship doesnt really have those expectations among others. Different relationships, different rules imo.

 

-Oliver needs to stop being selfish under the guise of being selfless.

Urgh true.

Its the writers trying to have their cake and eat it too.

 

First, I think in this case what the fandom wanted was also what TPTB wanted, so it was for the right reasons.

Debatable IMO. In a different perception, I could see it as other shows TW/TVD being more brave & professional to put their foot down and of course thats is debatable too. 

 

Did Felicity change this guy, or did being around her greatly facilitate his healing and completely appropriate maturation process?

 

It could be a bit of both? Felicity has had her share of walking away from Oliver and giving him speeches to stop what he is doing, to be what she expect of him or think he is/ should be. Doesnt sound like to me like she just "allow him to be the person he's always been"  nor that she isnt trying to champion for his change either for himself/her/their relationship. And as much as I agree that him being around her is has been a positive influence in his life, I question the reality vs expectations of its effectiveness, except for the whole killing thing Oliver is probably worse in some ways than he used to be in early seasons. There has been some regression despite Felicity being in his life. And of course, something that most of us probably agree on is that she isnt the only one to credit for his growth and turn arounds. I would say that Thea and Roy have  been very influential this season.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Conell

[looptab]

Of course it's still all about perception, but I really saw things in S1 that were purposefully distancing Oliver from the Picture of Doom Laurel/Oliver 4eva set up.

 

So sorry. I have to admit that it’s difficult to process unearned moments like that one. I think that what you have throughout the first season is, as I’ve said, contingencies with Felicity, Helena, McKenna, but you also have Laurel as a contingency. The prods may not have wanted her, but they couldn’t replace her yet. The network had a longstanding relationship with her. WB/DC has a longstanding relationship with the character. While the actual people who day to day had to put the show together figured out very early she had to be replaced and who the best person was to replace her, it’s not entirely their decision. I think what they were doing is kind of like…if I go to a trade show and there’s this upstart vendor with great technology that I think could replace a current vendor who needs replacing. I make my case up the chain, up the chain gives me the leeway to keep it under consideration, I start shaping my processes to accommodate *both* vendors for a while, proving slowly that the new vendor is capable and the product is improved…season two you can see that effort expanding beyond simply giving Felicity the important relationship with him but proving that, at least wrt Oliver, Laurel was unnecessary. She sat out several eps, they gave her very few scenes with him. And then the much overlooked 214…which I'll get to in a bit.

 

 I have to admit I had never considered the parade of women from this perspective, but I do see your POVs and it makes a lot of sense to me. I really want to believe that's the thought-process that went behind it. I still have trust issues with these writers, though, ahaha. 

I really do appreciate your insight, and I'm loving this convo, you've certainly given me food for thought. :)

[steeledwithakiss]

Love your "rambling" ostentatious. For me too Felicity never tried to actively change Oliver and Oliver never tried to change for Felicity, it happened through them spending time and working together and Diggle is just as important I think. Those 2 have been with him almost from the beginning of his crusade and they were friends. That is I think one of the reasons it works so well with F/O because long before Oliver started to realize he was falling for her they were friends. A lot of people shipped them since the first meeting but I don't think Oliver, at least until maybe 2x06, thought they were more. Now with the distance, he's come to realize that she's been important for his journey (the first person he saw as a person) since day one. He was not saying he fell for her right there  and then(how could he? He was too busy hooking up with Helena, Mckenna, Laurel).

As for Oliver being selfish underneath it all IMO he's scared. Just like ostentatious said, he doesn't trust himself. Also, I don't think he knew he'd react like that with her moving on with her life. He's been supposedly doing the selfless thing with Laurel and Tommy in season 1, up until he decided he wanted her back, but we didn't see him really struggle with being the martyr. Now with Felicity he wants to be noble but it's seriously killing him, because he's not a cold killing machine anymore. Those almost 3 years back have changed him, he's opening up to others but also to feeling jealousy and hurt.

Edited April 9, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[kismet]

So I was trying to remember what it was like when I watched Arrow in s1, without knowing comics or having any relationship preferences. And I can remember rooting for L/O to get back together. IDK, I bought into the idea of star-crossed lovers. The chemistry was not great, in fact it was pretty bland, but I thought that might change overtime. I saw the push & pull as realistic and intriguing. I even like T/L being together as a possible but realistic delay. (I will admit that I actually did like T/L better than O/L, but still I bought into the potential of L/O. I probably could have even got over the sister cheating if it was handled properly. Where the show lost some of my support was when OQ slept w/ LL on the same day he promised his bf for decades that he would not come between him & LL. I thought that hook-up, esp the timing was just trope & cliche. Where the show completely lost all of my support is when they brought SL back from the dead & had OQ/SL picked back up their physical relationship. It just became too much baggage to handle. Not only that, but s2 went to far lengths to highlight the toxicity of the past & present L/O relationship. That hallway scene was probably the best acted & well written scene for SA & KC together. I felt both sides of that fractured emotion. It was good and a well needed transition for them. So by the time s3 rolled around I liked the repairing of a friendship between O/L and u catch 'em/ I fry 'em. Their relationship now is just awkward, but I blame that on the dysfunctionalization of all relationships this season due to PLOT!

 

So my question is beyond the comics reason, what is the current rationale that L/O shippers are using that L/O should be together over any other pairing? I mean I want to hear their side of the story. Because I honestly don't see O/L being together romantically at this point for any other valid reason than comics. And even that reason does not hold up well because, comics are always changing. I'm not saying there is never the potential that seasons down the road the writers may change their minds. But as of right now, I can't really see them being romantically together. Does anyone know what they O/L supporters use as their reasons?

[ostentatious]

It's at least 50% comics.

Most of them seem to think that something like the Picture of Doom (they are incredibly hung up on that) is a promise that cannot be broken. They also think that because multiple other characters who are not Oliver or Laurel have stated "u guys are totally meant 2 b" in various ways that that was the show promising them that was true, and never noticed that Oliver just stared at the speakers with that deliberately blank face of his when they said it. Similarly, when Laurel claims to know him better than anyone, they think that means the show is omnisciently saying this is a fact.

It's really a philosophical question to me, about how a person processes narrative. When someone onscreen TELLS me something outright - like "I spent five years on a deserted island" - I immediately think, oh *did* you now. Mm hmm, sure you did. I am suspicious of anything I am told but not shown. Laurel claims to know him best? Both what I have been shown and the look of "she is tryin' my nerves" look of stoic endurance on Oliver's face while she says it makes me go mm hmm sure you do honey.

I find them to be naive consumers of narrative, in other words. I find myself to be an overly suspicious consumer of narrative who vastly overestimates how clever writers are being because there is nothing I love more than an unreliable narrator, plus I'm an atheist so the only sense I ever get that anyone is actually in control of any universe is in fiction, and it's pleasant to feel like someone has a plan sometimes.

I don't think Diggle is unimportant, and he's second in importance in shaping Oliver after Felicity, but...the guidance he gives him, in word and in example - and David Ramsey and SA have both said this outright - is the example of a husband and father. He's his friend, they have bonded as brothers, but the lessons he's gotten from Diggle are about how to be with Felicity. Diggle doesn't outright counsel him on anything but his love life. So...as far as contributing to Oliver's transformation, Diggle has provided him with guiding principles to use to find his way toward the Guiding Principle. I think there is a difference between saying which characters are important to Oliver and which ones have provided examples and guidance. Thea is important, and reconciling with her is an enormous part of his healing, but she isn't providing examples and guidance, neither is Roy. Providing Roy with examples and guidance has been part of Oliver's healing as well.

Edited April 10, 2015 by ostentatious

[BkWurm1]

"Love is not about changing someone, it is about finding a person who is already the right fit"  or something like that

But while Diggle's further speech might ring true for Oliver and are positive affirmation for him. For Felicity it’s not really, she is waiting for someone to change (that’s arguably not an already right fit), Felicity has to wait and help change a person, Oliver. To me this pro Olicity quote, ironically exposes  a somewhat mismatch in them.

 

Where I disagree is that I don’t see Felicity wanting or needing Oliver to fundamentally change who he is or what he believes or what he does at this point.  He is the man that is the right fit for her…the issue is he thinks he can’t be.   The change needed is one of perception and understanding, not personality or the direction of his life. 

Felicity is possibly going to majorly carry burdens that arent anywhere close to her own if not already, making sacrifices that will possibly put her own soul at risk. …  If anything I think there is quite a huge imbalance between Oliver/Felicity than others, the way I see it, the extremely "good girl" and extremely "bad boy" type of ship. All too well reminds me of some "buzzy" CW ships of that trope, in the end the girl/woman, whose life gets destroyed or is set back for the romance

 

I don’t see Felicity as the extremely “good girl”.  She can’t be.  Not only does she have a very fuzzy view on any laws applying to information or computers but she rolled pretty quickly with helping a known murderer.  She’s not naïve, she’s not judgmental (even of those that arguably should be judged) she knows her limits and beliefs and is wiling to put her foot down when she feels it’s needed.   She’s very positive and upbeat but she doesn’t expect other’s to be.  She’s not risking her soul and she’s taken steps to create a life outside of her heroing business. 

 

Why I love Oliver and Felicity together is that while they seem like very different people and have had vastly different experiences, they generally agree and think along the same lines.  

So while I think Diggle is correct - love isn't about changing someone - I think he would even say, sometimes the feelings are right, the person is right, but the timing is wrong.  That seems to be what they choose to do with Oliver and Felicity this season.

 

I usually think of timing as he loves her but she's in a relationship only for her to realize her feelings for him but he's moved on.   In O&F's case they both want to be together but at least in Oliver's eye's they just can't be, I guess that's where the star crossed lovers troupe comes in.  Only it isn't the universe that needs to change, just Oliver's perception of his place in it while being in a relationship. 

  

But he is still being selfish and only when that changes will I be able to look at them and not sometimes think "She should really quit the team and go get over him.  She really does deserves better than this."

 

It's tough because he's trying to be unselfish (put the city's needs before his own) so even though we find his actions frustrating, they are still easy to sympathize with, one of the more clever moves the writers pulled this season.   I also think part of Oliver fully expected Felicity to walk away completely.  He keeps being surprised to find her still on the job while she's with Ray.  He's selfish for not challenging his fears and weaknesses while still wanting her around, but at the same time he thinks he deserves to lose her and keeps pushing her away.  

 

I love Felicity - she does have some weaknesses and one of them seems to be "the need to be needed."

 

Not sure if I get this vibe from Felicity, at least not on a strictly emotional level.   Between college and the IT department, we have no indication that Felicity had any life outside work.  No associations, no groups, no friends.  She was proud of her work, but not terribly challenged and she thrived on being a part of something bigger and more meaningful than just a normal existence.  Later when Oliver basically said it was only a matter of time before he too was dead on a slab down in the Lair, Felicity sought to create something outside of her work with the Arrow  - something she could hold onto even if Oliver let himself died alone on a slab, but she wasn't at that point working cause she needed to be needed.

 

I think she does get a little seduced by being able to share what she can do (even if she shouldn't do something like the supervirus she wrote intended for more benign purposes or the computer program that let Laurel use Sara's voice.  Sometimes her talent and ability is enough reason for her to try to do something but Ray desperately wanted her help, he told her he needed her but that wasn't what swayed her.  Later when she was helping him with the suit and based on Oliver "dying" stopped helping him, she again wasn't swayed by his need for her help.  So the need just to be needed - I just don't see.  

 

I think it's safe to say that she has a hard time saying no to Oliver but that's less IMO a psychological need being filled than wanting to please someone she loves and supports.  

[steeledwithakiss]

Well I think that her need to be needed is maybe very specific to Team Arrow. With them she found a home and a family, so when that place is endangered (2x14/3x15) she feels threatened and act out. I haven't seen her act like this with anyone else (Cooper, her mother) even with Ray she slept with him I think not because he needed her but because Oliver/Diggle made her feel like they didn't need her. Before that she was helping Ray rather reluctantly.

[BkWurm1]

So I was trying to remember what it was like when I watched Arrow in s1, without knowing comics or having any relationship preferences. And I can remember rooting for L/O to get back together.

 

I went into the show knowing a bit about the comics and fully expecting it to be Oliver and Laurel and wanting to get on that ship because it is NOT fun to hate the main ship (I came from Smallville, I did NOT like Lois at all  - to be fair I kind of despised Clark by the end of it too but that is a different story).  I even remember telling a friend that is a HUGE comic book guy that the show was being somewhat clever, getting all the unappealing "Green Arrow repeatedly cheats on the Black Canary" stuff out of the way and in the past so they can honor canon while they go forward. 

 

I was trying to be positive even though my first impression of Laurel was to raise an eyebrow about her turning off the TV scene followed by covering my eyes and watching between my fingers when she tore Oliver a new one for not still being dead on the bottom of the sea.  I mean ouch!  Justified but sooo uncomfortable.   I was really puzzled by at the end with her suddenly doing an about face and offering an ear if he wanted to talk.  I was like, ooh, that's not a good idea but she had a nice chemistry with that dude Tommy, so I was willing to hold off on forming  my opinion.   Things didn't get better though.  Every scene was uncomfortable.

 

But interestingly, where I just lost it and started hating Laurel was actually not something that she did but something the Oliver did because of her.  

 

I've always empathized with Thea and it couldn't have been more than a few episodes in when she took him to the headstones (of empty graves) and begged him to let her in, pouring he heart out how much she needed him.  She finally points out that he needs someone too and he goes off, thinks about it, picks up ice cream, knocks on some door in some hallway that even the second time I saw the episode I though was somewhere in the Queen Manor and instead of spending a little downtime with his baby sister who literally was screaming for some attention, he tries to force it on a woman that wants nothing to do with him and in that moment, I realized that Laurel and Oliver's obsession with what she represented on the island was a terrible influence on him and IMO lead him to make bad choices in his life again and again. 

 

Fast forward to "the climb" and Tommy watching and then Tommy saving her even though she'd broken his heart and he forgiving Oliver even as he lay dying...well, there as no chance of ever changing my mind about the toxicity of a Laurel and Oliver relationship after that.