statsgirl February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 I meant that it would be cheating Ray because he thinks she's ready to move on to a relationship with him when she's not. Unless they both agree that they're in a mutual rebound relationship, him from Anna and her from Oliver (although I don't think that's the case on his part any more), and it means nothing more than comfort sex to both. 1 Link to comment
KirkB February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 Okay, sorry, I may have read it wrong. In that case it would require Felicity and Ray talking to each other, which people on this show generally seem incapable of doing, especially when it counts. Link to comment
Password February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 One of the articles/reviews mentioned that Ray and Felicity were sort of denying themselves each other because of Oliver and Anna. Is that the impression anyone here got? Link to comment
tarotx February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 It's not cheating. But it isn't moral. I don't mean moral in some religious nastiness either. But then again Palmer is self focused any way and won't care The Felicity has strong feelings for someone else. He wants Felicity and has her. Felicity didn't go run off and start dating/doing right way after Oliver ended their present chance. That's in her character. It wasn't for a while even with Ray being Oh look at me constantly showing myself off that she allowed herself to partake in what he has indirectly offered. All of that is OK in my books. It's Felicity's relationship and her attitude with Oliver that makes everthing OOC. She's a bitter ex. She clearly needs to stay away from Oliver and move on. I mean quit team Arrow For her own sanity. I personally don't want to watch her and Oliver be bitter. I don't like couples that bring the worst out of each other. Ever since Oliver "died" and came back Felicity is just like season 1 Laurel. I don't enjoy that. Felicity and her PTSD cause everyone leaves and Oliver and his I have to be strong and smart enough (to make sure the ones I love or need to protect can keep their light or innocence) And will do want only I see is necessary. It's been frustrating in a bad way. Their natural chemistry friendship and relationship was the hope that a show like this needs to keep everything from being dreary. The show tries to have that with Ray and Felicity but it's not working for me. Their scenes seems out of place on the show and Ray as a character is just there to keep Felicity away. It is almost like Ray is the guy Felicity falls a sleep and dreams about. The couple's scenes are off kilter with the rest of the show. Its pacing, music and presentation is like their own show. I keep feeling like I'm watching a Bewitched era sitcom. 4 Link to comment
catrox14 February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 I look at Raylicity as delayed rebound affair. Ray isn't over Anna by a long shot IMO. And if Felicity was ever in love with Oliver, but she is no longer in love with Oliver then it's still a rebound for her but to a lesser extent. BUT if Felicity is still in love with Oliver then she is actually doing Ray a disservice by being with him. I don't view it as cheating but it's just kind of shitty thing to do. Especially if Ray, who seems pretty clueless about these matters, somehow decides he's actually in love with Felicity. And if Felicity is playing a game to get Oliver back then that is a Felicity I can no longer respect. 3 Link to comment
AyChihuahua February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 I go back and forth on this a lot, so I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the intelligent and informed discussion! 1 Link to comment
SmallScreenDiva February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 It's Felicity's relationship and her attitude with Oliver that makes everthing OOC. She's a bitter ex. She clearly needs to stay away from Oliver and move on. I mean quit team Arrow For her own sanity. I personally don't want to watch her and Oliver be bitter. I don't like couples that bring the worst out of each other. Ever since Oliver "died" and came back Felicity is just like season 1 Laurel. I don't enjoy that. Season 1 Laurel was definitely bitter, but I don't see that in S3 Felicity. Not in her and not in her interactions with Oliver. I see anger, though, lots of it but that's mostly because she's upset he's putting his life at risk over and over again for a cause/person she couldn't support (i.e. Merlyn). I'm sure there's also anger over the fact Oliver is "choosing" to die than pursue a life with her, but she doesn't seem to have let that seep into their interactions. Would she still have been mad at Oliver and said all those things she's said lately if they hadn't tried to pursue a romantic relationship? Absolutely! Oliver is her friend and she's always called him out on his bad decisions. If she's a little bit angrier than usual, well, it's because Oliver has been stupider than usual. They're fighting a lot, but I don't see it as them bringing out the worst in each other. Oliver has been fighting a lot with other people lately because of the decisions he's been making. Felicity is just one of those people. Their fights don't have anything to do with them being a couple or not. Well, maybe a little, but it's not the main cause. I do agree with what you said about how the tone of Ray and Felicity's storyline being out of place in the show. TPTB's have made "Arrow" so grim this season that their lightheartedness seems to be at odds with the rest of what's going on in Starling City. When Ray tries to become serious, the tonal shift is so jarring. Just one of the many things the show hasn't quite managed to balance well during this season. 13 Link to comment
lemotomato February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 We can agree to disagree here but I don't see in any way that it could be construed as cheating. Even if Felicity is head over heels in love with Oliver they've been on a grand total of one date which ended badly. They aren't married. Felicity is in no way obligated to stay celibate or pine away waiting for Oliver to get his head on straight. There is no reason she can't date Ray, or Barry, or anyone else really, just as there is nothing stopping Oliver from hooking up with Laurel or Helena or a random woman who catches his eye. We don't have to like it and I'm sure many won't, but until Oliver/Felicity is an official, onscreen couple (and they aren't) they are both free to play the field. I think it's referred to as "emotional cheating", when one person is in a relationship while wanting to be with someone else. I like Felicity, so I prefer to not think that she's emotionally cheating on Ray. I don't even consider it a rebound relationship because what is she rebounding from, exactly? One flirty summer and half a failed date? While there's no doubt that Felicity loves Oliver, I'm not convinced that she's ever shown she's in love with him. She's attracted to him, for sure, but I don't see any of this pining that everyone says she's done. She's never been jealous of any of Oliver's women for romantic reasons. Felicity didn't like Isabel because she thought she was evil and she was initially unhappy about Sara because she was insecure about her place on the team. Felicity can do what she wants; I just wish she wasn't doing the character I hate because she was the last character whose scenes I enjoyed. 5 Link to comment
NumberCruncher February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 (edited) Felicity can do what she wants; I just wish she wasn't doing the character I hate because she was the last character whose scenes I enjoyed. Yep, my sentiments exactly. I was one of those people who at the start of the season wasn't crazy about the whole love triangle thing because it's such a tired, overdone trope, but I was willing to go along with it if I had to because at the end of the day I was okay with Felicity finding some happiness elsewhere if she couldn't be with Oliver. She didn't (and doesn't) belong to Oliver as a mature, independent woman. I HATE her relationship with Ray--not because it's being thrown up as a lame roadblock to Olicity--but because I hate the Ray character as he's been written and also the way their relationship has developed I think sends a terrible message to women about what constitutes a great potential romantic relationship: have the man stalk a girl long enough under the guise of only being interested in her professionally until she relents, have him become her boss and show up unannounced at her home and still continue to ping her cell phone and follow her uninvited, make him dangle a designer dress in front of her to essentially bribe her into going out with him on a not really (but really) date complete with kissing her after promising to keep things platonic...wash, rinse, and repeat until he finally falls into bed with her because she sees what a beefcake he is in a towel. WTF???? It's like a misogynist's wet dream. Sure he says pretty things to her, but so do a lot of other men whose actions towards women are anything but pretty. Oliver was presented back in S1 as a hot (former) billionaire that Felicity lusted after but the show I thought at least did a decent job showing that Oliver was never in a position to tell her what to do. I see a lot of mention about how Felicity dating her boss (Ray) is no different than had she dated Oliver but I cry foul on that because by the time any serious romantic undertones were present in their relationship Oliver had long since told her she wasn't his employee and was his partner--implying that they were equals. Furthermore, her "job" as his EA wasn't even a real job--it was a ruse merely to allow her to be in close proximity so they could fight crime together. She certainly refused to let Oliver treat her like a subordinate as his "EA". Comparing the two boss/subordinate situations here is an apple and oranges comparison. Bottom line, this Ray/Felicity relationship dynamic bugs the hell out of me and not because of its implications regarding Olicity. It has reduced Felicity into a woman who chose to ignore huge relationship red flags that in a real-world situation would be dodgy at best and dangerous at worse. I know it's just TV, but I wonder if the showrunners realize just how young and impressionable some of these 'shipper fans are. Couldn't they at least introduced Ray without all of the yucky inappropriate tendencies? Edited February 28, 2015 by NumberCruncher 16 Link to comment
statsgirl February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 (edited) One of the articles/reviews mentioned that Ray and Felicity were sort of denying themselves each other because of Oliver and Anna. Is that the impression anyone here got? Nope. I got the impression that Ray thought he'd never care for anyone other than Anna but as he comes to appreciate Felicity as more than just a really smart person, he's taken aback. He doesn't really want to have feelings for another person but the more time she spends with him and helps him and now it taking care of him, that's what's happening. In this triangle, Ray is the only one I have sympathy for. I think they've written Felicity's role badly because they wanted to have their cake (Felicity loves Oliver) and eat it too (Felicity is attracted to Ray, especially when he does Oliver-like things like the office salmon ladder). If she really were in love with Oliver, I don't think she'd be giving Ray an appraisal, no matter how expensive the dress he gets her. Season 1 Laurel was definitely bitter, but I don't see that in S3 Felicity. Not in her and not in her interactions with Oliver. I see anger, though, lots of it but that's mostly because she's upset he's putting his life at risk over and over again for a cause/person she couldn't support (i.e. Merlyn). I don't think Felicity is bitter, she just wants it to stop hurting. Oliver refuses to talk to her much less listen to her, he tells her he loves her and then walks away, he won't give her any agency in their interactions (you can't even call it a relationship at this point). And meanwhile there's Ray, who listens to her, who values her brain rather than making her an EA, and who does what she tells him to do (take a shower, eat something) and even better, tells her that she was right. How can that not be balm to her wounded soul? I completely understand why Felicity did what she did. It's what coming next that I want to skip. Here's why this triangle bugs me: Remember when Oliver and Sara lunged at each other because Sara was hurt by Laurel yelling at her (you should have treated her better when you had the chance, Laurel) and Oliver was.. I'm not sure what. Still angry at Laurel? Anyway, they lunged at each other in 2x13 and instead of a night of comfort sex, they got into a relationship. Felicity was hurt because she felt excluded from the scarred fighters and because Oliver had told her he couldn't be in a relationship with someone he cared about but here he was doing just that. In the end though, it was Sara who was hurt the most because she thought that she and Oliver had a chance when really by that time Oliver belonged to Felicity even if he refused to acknowledge it. Sara, who already was feeling worthless because of her past, felt even more so and went off to sacrifice herself to the LoA to do some good in helping to save the city. (We'll just ignore that boarding the boat scene, maybe she realized that it was only Nyssa who truly cared for her.) Now we're in 3x15 and Felicity lunges at Ray. So most likely we're going to get hurt Oliver, torn Felicity, confused/hurt Ray. Maybe Oliver will see Felicity with Ray and decide that since he's lost her, he'll take Ra's up on his offer. Maybe Felicity will realize that even though Ray treats her much better, she still loves Oliver and dumps Ray, leaving him hurt. Meanwhile, we have a bunch of episodes where they're acting uncomfortable around each other and communicating even less than they do now. It was bad enough before but I'm going to have to skip every scene with Oliver and Felicity now. Is anyone who likes Olicity looking forward to this? Edited February 28, 2015 by statsgirl 1 Link to comment
SmallScreenDiva February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 Nope. I got the impression that Ray thought he'd never care for anyone other than Anna but as he comes to appreciate Felicity as more than just a really smart person, he's taken aback. He doesn't really want to have feelings for another person but the more time she spends with him and helps him and now it taking care of him, that's what's happening. In this triangle, Ray is the only one I have sympathy for. I think they've written Felicity's role badly because they wanted to have their cake (Felicity loves Oliver) and eat it too (Felicity is attracted to Ray, especially when he does Oliver-like things like the office salmon ladder). If she really were in love with Oliver, I don't think she'd be giving Ray an appraisal, no matter how expensive the dress he gets her. I don't think Felicity is bitter, she just wants it to stop hurting. Oliver refuses to talk to her much less listen to her, he tells her he loves her and then walks away, he won't give her any agency in their interactions (you can't even call it a relationship at this point). And meanwhile there's Ray, who listens to her, who values her brain rather than making her an EA, and who does what she tells him to do (take a shower, eat something) and even better, tells her that she was right. How can that not be balm to her wounded soul? I completely understand why Felicity did what she did. It's what coming next that I want to skip. Here's why this triangle bugs me: Remember when Oliver and Sara lunged at each other because Sara was hurt by Laurel yelling at her (you should have treated her better when you had the chance, Laurel) and Oliver was.. I'm not sure what. Still angry at Laurel? Anyway, they lunged at each other in 2x13 and instead of a night of comfort sex, they got into a relationship. Felicity was hurt because she felt excluded from the scarred fighters and because Oliver had told her he couldn't be in a relationship with someone he cared about but here he was doing just that. In the end though, it was Sara who was hurt the most because she thought that she and Oliver had a chance when really by that time Oliver belonged to Felicity even if he refused to acknowledge it. Sara, who already was feeling worthless because of her past, felt even more so and went off to sacrifice herself to the LoA to do some good in helping to save the city. (We'll just ignore that boarding the boat scene, maybe she realized that it was only Nyssa who truly cared for her.) Now we're in 3x15 and Felicity lunges at Ray. So most likely we're going to get hurt Oliver, torn Felicity, confused/hurt Ray. Maybe Oliver will see Felicity with Ray and decide that since he's lost her, he'll take Ra's up on his offer. Maybe Felicity will realize that even though Ray treats her much better, she still loves Oliver and dumps Ray, leaving him hurt. Meanwhile, we have a bunch of episodes where they're acting uncomfortable around each other and communicating even less than they do now. It was bad enough before but I'm going to have to skip every scene with Oliver and Felicity now. Is anyone who likes Olicity looking forward to this? Looking forward? No. But I'm curious as to how it's going to play out. It may happen exactly how you just laid it out, but I've found that a line here or a deliberate acting choice (by Stephen or Emily) there sometimes saves a dreaded Olicity scenario for me. 7 Link to comment
Password February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 Looking forward? No. But I'm curious as to how it's going to play out. This. I'm not going to watch this train wreck but I am awfully curious to know how it will come to a head. Oliver's character is in the dumpster, not quite sure what will make Felicity torn between he and Ray. More importantly how will they fix the car crash that is "communication" between Olicity. Or anyone on the show. 3 Link to comment
Genki February 28, 2015 Share February 28, 2015 I know there is a lot about how Oliver has his head up his ass while Ray is treating Felicity right but thinking back on the season Oliver has done a lot right by Felicity IMO, that shows he listens and cares about her. - When she said she didn't accept dying in the cave, he went to find Thea, started repairing their relationship - When she said it felt right to throw dirt on Sara's coffin he followed her lead - He supported Felicity during the Cooper drama while she saved herself and her mother - He doesn't hold her relationship (professional or personal) with Ray as a reason to treat her differently - He stopped touching her after she asked to stop dangling maybes - He helped Barry because she wanted him to - He does not lie to her I know deciding unilaterally that a relationship is wrong/distracting for him as the Arrow took away some of Felicity's say, but he has been shown be moving painfully, slowly away from that decision. While the stuff with Merlyn is monumentally stupid (and OOC) I can still see Oliver Plot induced reasoning. The stuff Palmer does is flashy and easy and since he isn't facing any moral dilemmas or extreme circumstances, they hold less value for me. 13 Link to comment
statsgirl March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 I know there is a lot about how Oliver has his head up his ass while Ray is treating Felicity right but thinking back on the season Oliver has done a lot right by Felicity IMO, that shows he listens and cares about her. - When she said she didn't accept dying in the cave, he went to find Thea, started repairing their relationship But Felicity doesn't know that he listened to her and started to repair his relationship with Thea. IMO, it doesn't count if he doesn't let Felicity know that what she says matters to him. From her perspective, all he does is keep shutting her out. - When she said it felt right to throw dirt on Sara's coffin he followed her lead - He supported Felicity during the Cooper drama while she saved herself and her mother- He doesn't hold her relationship (professional or personal) with Ray as a reason to treat her differently- He stopped touching her after she asked to stop dangling maybes - He does not lie to her These are just basic good manners though, things you do with your friends. Diggle supported her too during the Cooper drama, and so did Ray by giving her all the time off she wanted. Oliver has no right to hold her relationship with Ray against her, not that he knows what it is, and absolutely he should stop touching her if he's not going to follow through on the implicit assumptions. He doesn't lie to Diggle either. The one thing is that he helped Barry when she wanted him to, but that was on The Flash, written by a Flash writer. Every interaction Oliver and Felicity have had since he got back has been more toxic than supportive. I'm not mad at Oliver or Ray, but I am furious with MG who thinks this is great fun. 4 Link to comment
MsSchadenfreude March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 Is anyone who likes Olicity looking forward to this? Yes, I do want to see where this story goes. It probably helps that I don't think Felicity is some unlikeable needy pod person leading poor Ray on nor do I think Oliver is unlikeable either. Are Oliver, Felicity and Ray in for some hurt in the future? I'm sure they are, that's life. People get hurt and sometimes they hurt others too. 2 Link to comment
apinknightmare March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 I guess I'm just not sure how much hurt there's going to be between Ray and Felicity when they do end things. Felicity knows Ray lost his fiancee not even a year ago. Ray knows that Felicity has someone in her life that was more than a friend (not sure if he knows that person is back from the dead or not). They've both been pretty straightforward about the emotional things they're still holding onto. I'm sure that there will be some hurt, but when they realize that it's not going to work out that they'll see the relationship for what it was: a rebound. I think their parting of ways will be bittersweet and amicable. 4 Link to comment
Carrie Ann March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 I'm responding to some of this in the Felicity thread, because I'm mostly talking about her, I think. Link to comment
quarks March 1, 2015 Author Share March 1, 2015 This will shock everyone but I have a lot of thoughts. Starting with, this is television, which means its chief purpose is not to tell a great story, but to make money. Hollywood executives don't mind doing both, but the second is far more important. And from that point of view, yes, it absolutely makes sense to bring Oliver and Felicity together. Slow burn and on again/off romances with popular couples is a way for television to lure in viewers - and Oliver and Felicity are an undeniably popular couple. Putting those characters together after a couple of seasons also is a way for television to lure in viewers. I noted this before, and it bears repeating: ratings slowly trickled down with Oliver/Laurel, but started going up again as the show shifted to Oliver/Felicity, and then plunged when the show shifted to Oliver/Sara, even with viewers liking Sara. This season, ratings are back up. If you don't think network executives are paying attention to this, I have a bridge to sell you. If you don't think this is why the Ray/Felicity sex scene was so truncated, and why an announcement was made the very next day that Ray would be off the show soon and on his own show, with Caity Lotz, ensuring that both the romantic rivals are gone, I have three bridges to sell to you. (And yes, this is why I'm pretty sure there will be major Oliver/Felicity moments before the end of the season, since this show needs to sell DVDs.) So I don't think the issues are whether or not Oliver/Felicity can or will work together, but rather: 1. The producers believing, as they continue to state, that they are writing an "epic," and believing that an "epic" needs an "epic romance," which in their mind means "full of obstacles." (This is all debatable, but appears to be what they are thinking.) 2. The CW's ongoing insistence that love triangles sell and their viewership demands love triangles, no matter what the ratings for their shows might say. (And to be fair, some love triangles and on again/off again romances do very well. Hello, Scandal and Friends. The argument's not completely without merit.) 3. The decision to make the other side of this obstacle/love triangle, using Marc Guggenheim's words, a "romantic comedy" (again, debatable, but let's stick with what the show is saying it's doing here). That on its own is fine. The problem is that Arrow is not a romantic comedy; it's a drama with comic book/soap opera roots. Comedies can get away with a lot of questionable/crossing boundaries behavior because the character in question will get laughed at, but no one will suffer any other long term consequences. Arrow had someone die because someone else was trying to save legal files; someone lose a billion dollar fortune because he was distracted during his sister's kidnapping; various mooks die because they picked the wrong employer, everyone is suffering long term consequences from everything, and so on. On Arrow, forgetting boundaries/questionable decisions lead to consequences, even decisions made by Laurel Lance. (It's just that in her case other people tend to be the one suffering because of those decisions.) (To be clear, I'm not suggesting that some of Ray's more questionable behaviors – the phone pinging – would necessarily be ok in a comedy, either, or that playing some of that for laughs would be a good thing – but in a romantic comedy, we wouldn't be expected to admire this, necessarily; we'd be expected to laugh at it, and the characters can react back without worrying about long term consequences. Arrow is trying to put that sort of behavior into a comedic context in a non comedy show, and that's part of the problem.) 4. Doing this romantic comedy without casting an actual comedian or even skilled straight man in the role. I'm about to get very unfair here, so apologies in advance, but imagine, for a moment, these same exact lines and plot done with Chris Pratt's trademark goofiness. Or Will Farrell's ability to have his characters cross boundaries/go well over the top without realizing they're doing so. Or Terry Crews as the cuddly straight man able to pull off the ridiculous. Any of these portrayals could have softened what we're getting, or turned it into an actual comedy. As it is, though, Ray is getting funny lines without a straight man to play them against (one of the many reasons isolating Ray and Felicity into their own story has been a problem) and with just a couple of exceptions, most of the comedy has gone to Felicity. EBR can handle it – except that outside Ray/Felicity, she's not in a comedy; she's in a epic love story with a hero fighting the ultimate forces of evil; the temptations within his own soul. (Also, Ra's and Malcolm.) Obviously Arrow couldn't have afforded any of these guys, but there was no reason not to look for a comedian other than "the CW needs really good looking people." 5. Having almost nothing that Ray lead to negative consequences. So far, his unnecessary hacking got him control of QC; everything he's done with/to Felicity has led to her working with him/helping him gain control of the dwarf star company/getting her into his bed; although Felicity did note that it could cause problems, missing a week of work without notifying anyone at Palmer so far hasn't caused problems; Felicity's just covered for him; and now, after a few months of work - it's been less than a year since Anna died - he can fly around in a superpowered suit. He has it all: money, the girl, the suit. Iron Man dealt with this by giving Tony Stark heart shrapnel that could kill him at any point; Arrow previously dealt with this by giving the wealthy Oliver the backstory from hell and difficulty creating strong emotional bonds with people, and by showing Oliver almost dying in the current timeline more than once. And this is within a context of a story where two of the major characters went through complete hell, dragging others with them, for having one affair. Yes, a lot of that is on Malcolm, but in the context of the show, everything that happened specifically to Oliver/Sara was triggered by their decision to get on that boat. Otherwise, the only dead people would have been Robert Queen and the crew - and given what happened, it's even arguable that had Oliver not been on the boat, Robert Queen might have been the one to survive - and been able to stop Malcolm. The show at least wants us to believe that had Sara not been on the boat, Deathstroke wouldn't have gone after Starling. There are actual dead people because of this. So far, Ray got some light wounds from a fistfight that couldn't be blamed on him - that was self-defense. And that's it. Again, that can work in comedy - Hulu's little cartoon superhero show The Awesomes played with that idea, but played it for laughs and made that particular character unsympathetic. I know that we're supposed to feel sorry for Ray because of his dead girlfriend - but beyond the problem that Ray only played that card to explain breaking off his kiss with Felicity, and that just a few weeks later he's saying that he really cares for Felicity, we never really saw Anna on the show. We saw Cupid, and we got to see, directly, how Slade's Mirakuru soldiers affected her, but we never that with Ray. It's been said before, but if comics canon and the upcoming spinoff weren't telling me Ray is a good guy, I would assume he's being set up to go evil or to be the absolutely obnoxious romantic rival that the good guy has to defeat. And in some ways, he is the absolutely obnoxious romantic rival who gets everything while the good guy gets nothing - but that goes back to the problem that Ray is supposed to be a good guy. 6. The timing. Oliver's previous hookups/relationships mostly happened during downtime: he and Helena fought off the mobsters before hooking up; the bad guys of the week were mostly dealt with before he got together with McKenna; he and Isabel had their moment while he had nothing else to do while waiting for Anatoly's signal except drink; and he and Sara waited until after Nyssa had left the city before they hooked up. The only exceptions so far have been one dinner with McKenna while Felicity was tracking down bad guys (a dinner which stopped the moment he heard from Diggle), and Laurel - where he took a moment of believing that yes, things were over, and he could go back to being just Oliver Queen - and jumped right back to business once Felicity called him. (And then stopped to talk to Laurel even though, AUUGH the city was about to be destroyed, not the moment, Oliver.) This was also true of Felicity's first kiss with Ray - Cupid had been defeated, downtime - and her kiss with Barry. In this case, Felicity headed over to Ray's and slept with him when Oliver and Diggle were headed off to Nanda Parbat and, to repeat my irritation from earlier, Team Arrow was holding an assassin in the Arrow Cave. I don't really have a problem with Felicity having a nice hookup while Oliver and Diggle were flying over to Asia because that's a long flight, but Nyssa makes things trickier. Plus there's the problem that the show has now spent a couple of years showing Felicity terrified whenever she thinks something might have happened to Oliver. It's happened several times this season. If Felicity and Oliver were on bad terms - but that's the next problem: they're not. She was furious at him after his "Hi, I'm working with Malcolm" announcement, but by the next episode, she was snarking but working with him. This past episode, he only had to mention Thea, say "Please," and she agreed to help him. Sure, she snarked at him - but she's said worse to him before. And sure, a couple of episodes before, she said she didn't want to be a woman he loved - while also admitting that while he was gone, she'd fantasized about him. And this after the show has spent two years convincing us that Felicity has feelings for Oliver, to the point of having Isabel, Barry, Diggle, Moira, Slade and Malcolm note this verbally and Laurel and Roy acknowledge it non-verbally. So yeah, the timing of this is all wrong. It might have worked as comfort sex - but Ray/Felicity are being written as a romantic comedy, so their sex moment had to start elsewhere. The ongoing problem of the romantic comedy thing. It also might have worked as episode 7 sex, especially since at the end of episode 7, everyone was safe and no one was a prisoner in the Arrow Cave - but because episode 8 was the Flash crossover episode, the show couldn't have had any follow-up to that, which would have been a problem since this is supposed to be a relationship, not a hookup. So the hook-up has happened post Oliver's declaration, which is a problem; while Oliver is heading off to a potential death, which is a problem; and while Oliver is facing the choice of joining Ra's and losing still more of Oliver Queen, or fighting for Oliver Queen, something which has been tied to Felicity, also a problem. 7. Speaking of timing, the moment Ray sees Oliver and Felicity together (episode 17) he's going to realize that Oliver's the friend she's been talking about. Which in turn is why the show hasn't been able to allow Ray and Oliver to interact, thus increasing the sense that Ray and Felicity are off on their own show since not only are they the only two concerned about robots, but they rarely interact with others. 8. Having the romantic rival be someone the show wants to put in a spinoff. At least one show, Cheers, did do this successfully - spinning Frasier Crane off to a long running series. But Cheers only managed that after having Frasier Crane be a supporting character in a non romantic rival role for years. Otherwise, this really isn't a common thing, and having seen this play out, I think we can see why. 20 Link to comment
TrueMyth March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 Ever since Oliver "died" and came back Felicity is just like season 1 Laurel. I don't enjoy that. I agree with this, but I feel like it's been happening even before then. It's like the writers only think there is one way to write the "fated" 'ship. For example, the scene in the hospital hallway where she asks him to just be clear about his feelings for her and say that it's over and there is nothing between them... which Oliver actually had WITH BOTH GIRLS. It hit me while watching season one, but Oliver has the same conversation at the end of season one with Laurel as he has with Felicity in 3x01. Granted, he actually kisses Felicity and she has the strength to walk away where Laurel is drawn back to him, but it's the same scene of Oliver telling the girl he loves her in not so many words, but that he can't act on it because reasons. Now I think EBR is a more charismatic actor than KC, and she is able to play Felicity more sympathetically. All my sympathy for Laurel tends to come from circumstantial knowledge of the character. Still, both women tend to come off as shrill, judgmental exes. It's not fun to watch. Link to comment
wonderwall March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 Is anyone who likes Olicity looking forward to this? The only things I'm interested in this season are Digg and Olicity. Not Oliver and Felicity because it feels like Felicity won't do anything interesting other than have her relationship drama with Ray which imo I'm not really interested in, Oliver isn't making sense, and to be honest I don't care about anything else right now (villain sucks, plot sucks, other characters suck)... That being said, I'm not going to watch the remaining episodes (except for maybe depending on how the the preceding episodes turn out 20-23) only for Digg and Olicity. I'm interested in seeing how O/F will work things out. I'm interested in how they will mend their fractured relationship. I want to know when the relationship drama is over, whether we'll finally get to see the Felicity we saw in seasons 1 and 2 again (which will most likely be in season 4). This is why I'm a proponent to O/F getting together ASAP because I'd much rather sit through them working out their issues as a unit as well as not have their individual stories overshadowed by drama that isn't actually necessary. Do I wish the O/F relationship were done differently? Sure. But I don't mind the way they've been written so far. I think that this season has shown (with episodes 1, 5, 8, 9) that the writers know how to write O/F. It's just that they're too focused on what causes the most drama. So yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing them get over their issues and finally being a couple because I thoroughly believe that they make each other stronger when they work together as a unit. Also, I certainly don't think Felicity has become a pod person because I actually understand her actions and her motivations. I think people don't understand those things because the show isn't in Felicity's POV and her thoughts and emotions usually gets lost with everything else that's going on. If you look at each episode in a vacuum then of course, her actions wouldn't make sense. But taking everything into consideration including her history with her father, then yeah. It makes sense why she'd want to feel wanted for once, why she's giving Ray a shot (because he literally told her everything that she wanted to be told from a person), why she's having issues with Oliver's choices, why she hates Malcolm... I guess I'm in the minority here when I say that. 5 Link to comment
kismet March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 Felicity is trying out the old adage of "the easiest way to get over someone is to get under someone else/new". Do I think it is a healthy response? NO. Do I think it is a human response? YES. Will I hold it against her? NO. Is it cheating, absolutely not. Would I have recommended this course of action? Im not sure. TBH, I think if she had chosen to actually pursure RP on her own & sooner, I think I would have appreciated the storyline better. Felicity deserves to have an actual relationship, the problem is the way RP/FS have been written so far does not seem to be on course to a relationship. All of the major moments have been reactionary & generally reactionary to something Oliver did. I do not believe she is willfully trying to use or hurt RP. But as mentioned in previous responses, the manner in which RP pursued her did not give her as much agency and almost diminshed her. Do I believe that there will be collateral damage & hurt, oh absolutely. If this was just a 1 night stand it could be brushed off but all indicators point to it not being a 1ns, so emotional fallout will ensue. I have seen this adage play out in real life with both positive & negative results, so it will be interesting to see how it plays out here. Obviously, we know that eventually RP & FS will break up but how & what will happen as a result still remains to be seen. There are a lot of places the writers could go with this, so it might be worth watching for. I can only hope the writers choose wisely & not make it too cliche or tropy. I sorta hope their break-up has nothing directly to do with OQ, just as Sara's had nothing directly to do with FS. Since the writers decided to take us down this journey of relationship based self-discovery, I would love for them to actually make it about that and not just some dumb triangle. 3 Link to comment
looptab March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 I don't know how much of my opinion on the matter is genuine and how much is informed by the fact that I read spoilers and EP's interviews and such, so I "know" what their intention is with some decisions (that being said, I didn't buy into a lot of things they've been trying to convey anyway, i.e. Laurel's motivation), but I can get behind what's happening with Felicity and Ray. I can buy that she is so fed up with Oliver's one-track mind that, when seeing another person she cares about being headed towards that same path-and the deriving consequences of it, which she is witnessing right now- she would try and stop said person from going further. So I don't have a problem with her nagging Ray to eat, shower and sleep, because I believe that in Felicity's mind he is going to end exactly like Oliver if she doesn't do something about it. Sure, the stakes of the two men's struggles are very different and worlds apart, but that's because they're at very different stages of their respective journeys. And that's exactly what prompts Felicity; she said so herself, "Him, I can't do anything about. You're a different story." = For Oliver it's too late, but maybe I can do something with your situation. It's not that different from the advice she gave Barry in Flash 104, when she encouraged him to not shut everyone else out. I also disagree on the job situation issue, because if we admit that she was Oliver's partner and not his employee, the same can be said for Ray, IMO. But mileage may vary on this matter. The timing of the hook-up is out of place with everything else going on. I agree that this thing with Ray could have been handled better. But I'm willing to wait and see where it goes. 1 Link to comment
CabotCove March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 (edited) Starting with, this is television, which means its chief purpose is not to tell a great story, but to make money. Hollywood executives don't mind doing both, but the second is far more important. And from that point of view, yes, it absolutely makes sense to bring Oliver and Felicity together. Slow burn and on again/off romances with popular couples is a way for television to lure in viewers - and Oliver and Felicity are an undeniably popular couple. Putting those characters together after a couple of seasons also is a way for television to lure in viewers. I noted this before, and it bears repeating: ratings slowly trickled down with Oliver/Laurel, but started going up again as the show shifted to Oliver/Felicity, and then plunged when the show shifted to Oliver/Sara, even with viewers liking Sara. This season, ratings are back up. If you don't think network executives are paying attention to this, I have a bridge to sell you. If you don't think this is why the Ray/Felicity sex scene was so truncated, and why an announcement was made the very next day that Ray would be off the show soon and on his own show, with Caity Lotz, ensuring that both the romantic rivals are gone, I have three bridges to sell to you. You know what sells far more than the "will they wont they" love storylines, ;superheroes. The Flash is a very big reason why the ratings are up this season and possibly how much they have Batified Arrow. They announced a spin off after Ray's big flight in his new suit, thats striking it while the Iron is hot, this show will be a new money maker for them. Caity lotz has been gone for a very long time, her character is DEAD, she has been no way a romantic threat since then. Bringing her back again is what actually give her a tiny chance to be. Felicity brought Oliver exactly one cup of coffee, and even that was a gesture of friendship rather than a service. As a vice president of Palmer Technologies, Felicty had to nag Ray into eating and maintaining basic hygiene. She somehow seems much smaller than she once did, and watching Ray Palmer receive all of the big story beats that only Oliver himself has experienced is painful. What makes Felicity helping Ray not a gesture of friendship, it was not during working hours (but late at night) while it was for Oliver. Felicity straight up told Ray she doesn't do bringing boss "coffee" on her first day and never did. With Oliver she somehow changes her mind, but it is with Ray she is supposedly lacking her agency?. Edited March 1, 2015 by Conell Link to comment
quarks March 1, 2015 Author Share March 1, 2015 I don't think Felicity Smoak is a gold digger at all, which was one of the problems with the scene with the paintings. The major problem was that the paintings were there in an inept attempt to hide a quickly and poorly dressed set and the seams in the wall. To attempt to hide why they were trying to hide the seams, they had Felicity discuss the paintings. The issue is that Felicity's been exposed to the Queen money before this, which we know, in script, contained a major art collection, and felt comfortable enough with Ray's wealth to borrow his helicopter, so the whole "look, paintings!" not only felt a bit out of character for her but drew my eye right to the set problems. (To be fair, I was already there, but this just emphasized it.) I don't think it helped that these happened to be whatever paintings they could quickly grab from other Vancouver productions and at least two of them were prints. But having her say something a bit out of character, while doing something a bit out of character, just made me feel how forced this is. I should point out that I don't have a problem with Felicity getting some, and had Nyssa not been in the Arrow Cave at the time I'd probably be less grumbly than I am now, because, you know, rebound sex can be beneficial for everyone involved. I'd also be less grumbly if this entire thing was actually a romance for Felicity instead of a combined roadblock for Felicity/Oliver and an attempt to get Ray off the ground in more than one sense. 15 Link to comment
AyChihuahua March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 (And yes, this is why I'm pretty sure there will be major Oliver/Felicity moments before the end of the season, since this show needs to sell DVDs.) I hope their DVD sales for this season plummet. Like, no more than the copies MG buys himself plummet. Re Felicity being a gold-digger...I don't think she is, either, but the idiots writing this crap have kind of opened up that can of worms. She kissed him after the dress/necklace (in a very Pretty Woman scene), and now she hooks up with him after seeing his sweet original art. Lots of people on various comment boards are adding that in as a reason to hate her now. I think the producers really miscalculated how much crap characterization her character could overcome. 7 Link to comment
MsSchadenfreude March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 (edited) I should point out that I don't have a problem with Felicity getting some, and had Nyssa not been in the Arrow Cave at the time I'd probably be less grumbly than I am now, because, you know, rebound sex can be beneficial for everyone involved. @quarks I've seen you mention Nyssa being left in the Arrowcave when Felicity is with Ray and I am curious why it makes you so grumbly. :) It's not an issue for me, so I'm actually really interested in why others think it is. Oliver was the one with the plan to capture Nyssa so he could run off to Nanda Parbat. Then Oliver and Diggle go to NP giving no thought to Nyssa and now it is Felicity's job to babysit the assassin in a cage? Why? Of all the people on this new expanded Arrow team including Thea, she is the one least able to physically protect herself if said assassin got free. Besides, I would say Felicity already paid her babysitting dues when she got stuck watching mirikuru'd Roy while Oliver/Sara were off in a hotel having sexy times last year. Given that she was lucky Dig was around then since Roy was not in a handy little cage (although now that I think of it if they had put Roy in a cage they could have avoided all the trouble with the cop killing, but anyway...) I can't really blame her for thinking deadly assassin in a cage vs. sex with Ray. You know this whole stupid plan wasn't my idea anyway so yeah going with option number two. And if Felicity had been at the lair we may not have gotten that touching scene of Nyssa reminiscing with the woman she poisoned and tranq'ed about the Sara laughing in Ra's face. :) Edited March 1, 2015 by MsSchadenfreude Link to comment
statsgirl March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 (edited) MsSchadenfreude, I'm not quarks but my problem with it that it just shows how much Felicity has been dis-engaged from Team Arrow and everything that they're about at this point. Dangerous assassin in a cage? Let someone else worry about it, I'm off to my outside plot with Ray. I just want to clarify my earlier post that I think if there is any cheating done, it will be emotional cheating on Ray, not Oliver. From Ray's comments, we're given the impression that he is genuinely falling for Felicity whereas Felicity is either 1. in love with Oliver but can't have him or 2. too messed up and just looking for someone to give her some comfort (since her real friends Diggle and Roy are too busy with other people). I have serious issues with that examiner review. Anyone who thinks Felicity Smoak is a gold digger needs to get his or her head examined. The reviewer agrees. Her point was that they way they are writing Felicity makes her look like a gold digger, which she certainly is not. You know what sells far more than the "will they wont they" love storylines, ;superheroes. The Flash is a very big reason why the ratings are up this season and possibly how much they have Batified Arrow. I disagree, and so does Stephen Amell. As he said, it's not the action sequences that make the show, it's the emotional beats and the interactions among the characters. If you don't care about the characters, you won't care if they're in danger in the action sequences. This is the mistake Agents of SHIELD made in its first season and what it corrected in s2 when there was more about the characters other than Skye and less pure action. It's also the mistake Sleepy Hollow made in s2 by focusing on two characters few people cared about and the ratings took a nosedive. Arrow took off when the relationships gelled, when Felicity joined Oliver and Diggle (according to David Ramsey), when we started caring enough about Oliver in his relationships with Tommy and other characters, and people started caring about whether he won the battle or not, instead of just how cool the suit and fights looked. What makes Felicity helping Ray not a gesture of friendship, it was not during working hours (but late at night) while it was for Oliver. Felicity straight up told Ray she doesn't do bringing boss "coffee" on her first day and never did. With Oliver she somehow changes her mind, but it is with Ray she is supposedly lacking her agency? Because she has to babysit someone for whom at this point she only has minimal feelings. If it were Oliver, Roy or Diggle, she would be doing it out of real affection and caring for them. With Ray, it's because she works for him and because a good person should help anyone hurting himself as Ray is doing. At QC with Oliver, she was an equal and could decided whether or not to bring him coffee but if she decided not to, it wouldn't hurt Oliver that much. With Ray. he's in such a bad state that she'd be a monster to turn around and let him work himself to death, so there's really no choice here. Edited March 1, 2015 by statsgirl 5 Link to comment
Nagevs March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 (edited) I hope their DVD sales for this season plummet. Like, no more than the copies MG buys himself plummet. He probably thinks that huge volume of Black Canary and ATOM fans will sellout the DVDs and the 3.5 comics, that's who he wrote this season for after all. Edited March 1, 2015 by nagevs85 1 Link to comment
quarks March 1, 2015 Author Share March 1, 2015 You know what sells far more than the "will they wont they" love storylines, ;superheroes. Movies, absolutely. Television, more dicey. Of the seven superhero shows currently on network TV - Agent Carter, Agents of Shield, Gotham, Flash, Arrow, and Constantine, the two most popular are Gotham, averaging around 6 to 7 million viewers per week, with a high of a little over 8 million, and Agents of Shield, this season averaging between 4 million to 5 million viewers per week, and in the first season, reaching a top of about 12 million viewers, despite having a connection to extremely popular films. This is dwarfed by ratings for the all time on again/off again couple, Ross/Rachel on Friends, low of 16 million to a high of 52 million (a post Superbowl episode and the finale). Ok, that's pretty unfair. So to move on to fairer comparisons with current hour long dramas: Castle during their will they/won't they storyline (up through season four), running from 8 to 14 million viewers per week, still running 6 to 11 million viewers per week in its current season; Bones during their will they/won't they period, 8 through 12 million viewers per week (now down to 5 to 6 million viewers per week in season 10, still twice as high as Arrow and equal to Gotham); Grey's Anatomy, still pulling in 10 to 11 million viewers per week in season 10; Scandal (starting at about 6 to 7 million per week, now up to 9 or 12 million per week) Once Upon a Time, occasionally dipping just below 6 million viewers per week, but mostly running from 7 to 9 million viewers per week. It's not a guarantee, of course - Forever is only bringing in 4 to 5 million viewers per week - but television uses romance/sex for a reason. Regarding Nyssa in the Arrow Cave - yeah, Felicity has already paid her babysitting dues with Roy last year, and previously while working while Oliver was having a picnic with McKenna, but I still can't see her willingly leaving an assassin in a cage in the Arrow Lair, given that she's been so dedicated to Team Arrow that she stuck around even after Oliver pulled his "Don't ask me to say I don't love you," "died," and "Malcolm is awesomely good at the sword thing so we're allies now." I don't think she'd be doing it for Oliver in this case; I think she would be watching the cage for Team Arrow. This by the way has been one of my overall issues with Felicity this season: last season they had her say that some crazy guy in a leather suit told her she could be more than an IT girl, meaning part of Team Arrow, and this year, when she said she wanted more out of life than Team Arrow/dying with Team Arrow, that turned out to be...being an IT girl/personal assistant to Ray. So it's more than possible I'm dragging in previous baggage here. Link to comment
KirkB March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 (edited) I get what you guys are saying but Nyssa in a cage in the lair isn't really dangerous. I mean, obviously Nyssa al Ghul herself is incredibly dangerous, but if she gets out of the cage she isn't likely to hurt anyone who doesn't get in her way or try to stop her. At this point she just wants to get back to Nanda Parbat and hope the Malcolm pain train hasn't finished yet so she can jump on board. Strictly speaking, no one being in the lair if/when she gets loose would the best result for all concerned, especially since Oliver is the only one with any chance of stopping her without getting hurt and he isn't there. Edited March 1, 2015 by KirkB 3 Link to comment
statsgirl March 1, 2015 Share March 1, 2015 Speaking of Nyssa and her relationship with her father... when she hears that Ra's knocked her out of the succession and offered it to Oliver of all people, I hope she kills them both. Well maybe not Oliver but wow, way to dismiss your daughter who has been training all her life to be your Heir. 7 Link to comment
wonderwall March 2, 2015 Share March 2, 2015 I will accept it if Oliver is who Felicity wants and chooses but right now I sinceriously question how and why. Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you here. I don't think Oliver deserves her right now. Before this season, I absolutely thought that Oliver was an amazing person who deserved Felicity. This season? Not so much because he's been making terrible decision after terrible decision. I truly believe Oliver has hit rock bottom as a character and it leaves me to wonder whether or not this was intentional on the writers part. I think we all know who Oliver is and can be. I think what we all love about Oliver are the reasons why Felicity loves him too. Despite Oliver's terrible decisions this season, O/F have been building a solid relationship prior to their date where Oliver showed Felicity that he is a compassionate, caring, intelligent, resourceful, strong (no one can go through so many tragedies and still wake up in the morning), loving, and doting individual. I believe THOSE are the reasons why she loves Oliver. I want to emphasize that a season full of suck doesn't automatically wipe out the relationship O/F have built in the first two seasons. It doesn't cancel out why Felicity loves Oliver. You just can't view this season in a vacuum. While season 3 Oliver is a man who makes dubious decisions, I thoroughly believe that Felicity is still clinging onto season 1 and 2 Oliver. The Oliver I believe she fell in love with. And I think that, that Oliver's still there. Just buried under a lot of angst the writers are forcing our way. Now all that matters is whether Oliver grows from this point on. If he remains the same, if he doesn't grow as a person, then I don't think they should be together. But this show is still centered around Oliver's journey, and because of this I'm pretty sure we're going to get back the Oliver we had in episode 1 of season 3. That's the Oliver who the audience loves. That's who he's building up to become. That's who Felicity deserves. This identity crisis (for a lack of a better word) is a necessary evil in order for Oliver not to regress in the future, I suppose. I'm just grateful that O/F weren't actually together when he went through this. 11 Link to comment
CabotCove March 3, 2015 Share March 3, 2015 (edited) I want to emphasize that a season full of suck doesn't automatically wipe out the relationship O/F have built in the first two seasons.It doesn't cancel out why Felicity loves Oliver. You just can't view this season in a vacuum.While season 3 Oliver is a man who makes dubious decisions, I thoroughly believe that Felicity is still clinging onto season 1 and 2 Oliver. The Oliver I believe she fell in love with. And I think that, that Oliver's still there. Just buried under a lot of angst the writers are forcing our way. That is fair enough and i get what you are saying there, good history can always cushion a fall BUT sometimes the change in the person/couple can become just too much. For e.g the TVD has almost completely destroyed its two main couples Delena/Stelena after years of solid built ups, same for Steroline 5 years of good history and friendship is going down the drain due to one year of bad decisions. Good history is an advantage but it can be broken/damaged beyond repair too and TBH I don't really rate Olicity's (2 years) that high, it was a certainly healthy dynamic for the most part but not what I would call "epic love story" built up, JMO on that. Supposedly if its great, time will tell if they can use that to rise again above all this and more to come. Its not that Oliver is not a great guy, he is and a hero but its that Felicity has been given some genuinely good options IMO. She is also almost perfectly angelic and very intelligent, she is expected to yearn & thrive for the best for her self . When she ends up "choosing" Oliver it has to feel like he is the right and good choice for her not because Oh he is the leading character, he has to get his consolation prize and a trophy for his efforts. Good for him but what about what about what would be right and good for Felicity. I certainly hope it wont feel that way. That's where am I at the moment. Why is Oliver supposed to be the one to make her happy given how this season has played out? What is it about Oliver that she's supposed to love or wait for? He's the hero of the show but what exactly does he have to offer any woman seeing as he's dedicated himself completely to fighting crime, saving Malcolm, and besting Ras? I'm asking this in all seriousness because I'm not seeing it. If anything, this proves that Felicity isn't shallow. Abs and a tortured hero complex isn't enough for her. Being held at bay with a kiss and an I love you while Oliver chooses to go on another deadly quest isn't cutting it either. Anyway, I get that Oliver might be drawn to Felicity because she's his light but I have a problem with that because I don't know if he sees her for what she is either. While I enjoyed their friendship and saw potential, I don't like the idea of either one of them idealizing the other. I don't like the idea that she's supposed to pull him out of the darkness he's continued to choose for himself. Agree, that it what is what I have been asking myself even though sometimes i remember why I loved the Oliver character in the early season/s but you know you can't live on nostalgia alone or forever. Same for Felicity. Yeah I dont quite like the idea that she has to be the one to "save him". Help yes but it shouldn't have to become a burden and an obligation. Just a fact of life. It is not about keeping score but just helping each other when we need it most. The other/s who is in that relationship HAVE to understand and be okay and strong enough for that otherwise things will fall apart. They have to be willing to push past whatever block the other tries to put up and just keep chipping away. Yes it may get tiring, thinking you are doing all the work, but that's why they say it is selfless love. You are not a doormat you are a helper or facilitator. The joy and satisfaction you get when the person FINALLY is in a better place in life is unfathomable. I get this, I for one I'm a fan of second, third, infinite chances for loved ones but this a TV show, execution of that matters and can be very difficult. TV for the most part has idealized romances and fans expect something that is not very realistic, it almost has to be fairy tale like. In real life we dont have to be necessarily entertained by what two people do. And you might a well have described Lauriver there, in theory that likely how their relationship was planned to go, but we all know how that went. Edited March 3, 2015 by Conell 1 Link to comment
Trini March 3, 2015 Share March 3, 2015 Wasn't sure where to ask this... Have there been any fern sightings in the past few episodes? (It's a symbol for Oliver and Felicity; there, relevance!) Link to comment
wonderwall March 3, 2015 Share March 3, 2015 (edited) That is fair enough and i get what you are saying there, good history can always cushion a fall BUT sometimes the change in the person/couple can become just too much. For e.g the TVD has almost completely destroyed its two main couples Delena/Stelena after years of solid built ups, same for Steroline 5 years of good history and friendship is going down the drain due to one year of bad decisions. Good history is an advantage but it can be broken/damaged beyond repair too and TBH I don't really rate Olicity's (2 years) that high, it is certainly healthy but not what I would call "epic love story" built up, JMO on that. Its not that Oliver is not a great guy, he is and a hero but its that Felicity has been given some genuinely good options IMO. I agree that a change in a person/couple can be too much, especially if one participant in said relationship isn't changing with the other person. But I have to ask, have Felicity or Oliver actually really changed this season? Because I certainly don't see a drastic change in either of these two as individuals. I was always a proponent of Oliver growing up before being with Felicity. Even in season 1 & 2 he was the type of guy who made decisions for other people, who let his emotions sometimes get the better of him which led him to make stupid decisions (eg. his suicide mission to stop Slade in episode 21), who was really hard headed and blew up at the people who went against his wishes. Oliver is still that guy, but I feel like he's going to get better this season. And even then, Oliver righting his faults isn't a drastic change that could pull them apart. I also agree that good history can only mean so much. I just don't feel like Oliver has broken that yet, or if he will at all. Yes, Felicity and Oliver are at a crossroads, they're disagreeing on something extremely fundamental (should they let the ends justify the means?), but that doesn't mean that they've broken whatever they had before. Oliver still implicitly trusts Felicity, and Felicity still believes in Oliver and the cause, otherwise she would've abandoned him and gone to Ray full time. IMO Felicity is against Oliver and his decisions right now because she thinks he can be better. Like I said before, sometimes criticism is so much better than blindly praising someone. I don't subscribe to the idea that Oliver/Felicity are an epic couple. That's why I like these two. They're just two people going through the trials and tribulations of being heroes. Their romantic issues aren't larger than life, their feelings grew naturally throughout the course of the first 2.5 seasons... In the end, they are just two people who just really care about one another. I think this is what Sara meant when she told Oliver that he needs people in his life who don't wear masks. Because Oliver's life as the vigilante is loud and brash and life threatening, and I thoroughly believe that because of his life as a vigilante, all Oliver needs in his personal life is a normal(ish) relationship, one which isn't epic, one that's exactly what Felicity offers to balance out his life. To me, Oliver and Felicity haven't ruined their own history. No, Oliver did that with Laurel when he slept with Sara. I don't think that Oliver would ever be capable of hurting Felicity like that, and vice versa because regardless of whether or not they're fighting, they have too much respect for one another. And to me, that's part of the foundation of a good, healthy, sustainable relationship. Also, sorry I don't watch TVD so I don't really know how to relate to that. Wasn't sure where to ask this... Have there been any fern sightings in the past few episodes? (It's a symbol for Oliver and Felicity; there, relevance!) OH MY GOD WILL THE FERN DIE WHEN THE FOUNDRY EXPLODES?! God dammit. :p Also yeah, it's just there in the background. It's sort of omnipresent lol Edited March 3, 2015 by wonderwall 8 Link to comment
CabotCove March 3, 2015 Share March 3, 2015 Also, sorry I don't watch TVD so I don't really know how to relate to that. Thats Ok, no problem :). 1 Link to comment
Lord Kira March 3, 2015 Share March 3, 2015 (edited) Since Felicity deserves better than Oliver these days due to the writers purposefully making Oliver dumb to advance the plot, maybe the writers should go full out and please the people that want Oliver and Laurel together. You know, because "that's what happens in the comics." I want them to follow the comics and have them get married, show Oliver constantly cheat on Laurel, ruin his own life as well as hers, and go through a bitter divorce. That way when the same fans complain about how toxic the relationship is I can say "but that's what happens in the comics. You wanted this." Edited March 3, 2015 by Lord Kira 12 Link to comment
SonofaBiscuit March 3, 2015 Share March 3, 2015 ^ At least I could finally let this show go if the EPs went that route. 3 Link to comment
DrSpaceman10 March 3, 2015 Share March 3, 2015 I've been thinking about why Ray/Felicity's relationship feels unearned and uncomfortable to me. I think that it's a combination of a few things that when combined together make Ray look creepy. For one, Ray pinging Felicity's phone multiple times, Ray always being around when Felicity is crying/upset, Ray never interacting with any other characters, the entire situation with the date/necklace/dress, Ray showing up at Felicity's house uninvited, the constant comparisons to Oliver (ie: Ray doing the Salmon Ladder and the upcoming line about Ray being Barry in Oliver's body ), and Felicity having to remind Ray to eat/shower. I'm pretty sure the writers think all complaints about Ray are because of Olicity fans who'd rather see Felicity with Oliver, so they write off all of the (legitimate) complaints as only shipper problems. If the writers had taken more care in developing Ray as a person and focused less of getting Ray a spin-off, they could have avoided a lot of these issues. 10 Link to comment
Lord Kira March 3, 2015 Share March 3, 2015 Raylicity feels unearned because it is unearned. It is only exists to use Felicity to prop up Ray. The writers' mindset seems to be "Felicity likes Ray, and fans like Felicity, therefore fans will like Ray." Its all about getting Atom his own spin-off. They did the same thing with Barry, but at least that was only 2 episodes and back when the writing wasn't as terrible. I fully expect next season that Felicity will meet another man who is destined to be a hero and the process will repeat. Olicity, if it happens, will probably be in the series finale. After all, if they got together earlier than that and suddenly they wanted to introduce Dick Grayson how would they get fans to like him if he couldn't have romantic scenes with Felicity? Its a perplexing conundrum for the writers. 10 Link to comment
statsgirl March 3, 2015 Share March 3, 2015 LOL at getting fans to like Dick Grayson via Felicity. I've read a number of fanfic like that. From the Felicity thread: If he'd even let them go back to what they used to have, I think Felicity could have as you say chipped away at him pushing her away but he shut that door and iced her out, offering vows of love but refusing to even treat her like anything more than another tool for the Arrow to utilize. I can't do enough uptics for this. It's been a huge problem this season, created entirely for Ray and his spin-off. I'm sure MG feels like he can just park Olicity somewhere until he's ready for it in season 5 and everyone will still be excited for the ride. But this season has really cheapened the relationship between Oliver and Felicity all for the sake of plot. I've been thinking about why Ray/Felicity's relationship feels unearned and uncomfortable to me. I think that it's a combination of a few things that I'm pretty sure the writers think all complaints about Ray are because of Olicity fans who'd rather see Felicity with Oliver, so they write off all of the (legitimate) complaints as only shipper problems. Just like the viewers were upset about Laurel before because she wasn't the Black Canary yet, not about any real problems with the character or the writing. 1 Link to comment
jay741982 March 3, 2015 Share March 3, 2015 Raylicity feels unearned because it is unearned. It is only exists to use Felicity to prop up Ray. The writers' mindset seems to be "Felicity likes Ray, and fans like Felicity, therefore fans will like Ray." Its all about getting Atom his own spin-off. They did the same thing with Barry, but at least that was only 2 episodes and back when the writing wasn't as terrible. I fully expect next season that Felicity will meet another man who is destined to be a hero and the process will repeat. Olicity, if it happens, will probably be in the series finale. After all, if they got together earlier than that and suddenly they wanted to introduce Dick Grayson how would they get fans to like him if he couldn't have romantic scenes with Felicity? Its a perplexing conundrum for the writers. Yet there is no overwhelming love for Ray a lot of Felicity fans feel(Myself included)feel she's being used to Prop a newbie when she should be propped along with them having Felicity prop Hated Laurel. 1 Link to comment
jay741982 March 4, 2015 Share March 4, 2015 Oh god I can see them having Oliver and Felicity marry then in like season 7 or 8 kill her cause the Writers suck. Oliver would then settle for Laurel Link to comment
Guest March 5, 2015 Share March 5, 2015 (edited) From spoiler thread: For me Olicity has been tainted because the writers are forcing the two characters into the plot when it doesn't fit. Oliver making stupid decisions, Felicity propping Ray... Otherwise, I'm not bitter about the couple. I think that their issues are legitimate. It's so obvious to me that Oliver still loves Felicity. But I may have to backtrack my previous statements and say that Felicity still doesn't know just how deep her feelings for Oliver go. I think she was on the brink of understanding when Oliver returned, but he messed that up and so she walked away from him in order to protect herself. Agreed. It's all very contrived for one purpose - keep Oliver and Felicity apart a little longer while also propping Ray. None of it feels organic and has gone against all the progress Oliver (and Olicity) have made over two seasons. The agenda is so obvious. And I agree that Felicity's not aware of her own feelings. In s1 and s2 I felt like Felicity didn't think Oliver would ever think of her in that way and so she just compartmentalized her feelings for him. Even when she asked Oliver why he slept with Isabel, I don't think Felicity was angling for him to admit he had feelings for her. I think she genuinely wanted him to be happy and deserved someone better, even if it wasn't her. And the way she so easily dismissed herself when the Count kidnapped her - like it was almost unfathomable that she was worth saving, worth Oliver breaking his no kill rule. I don't think she believed he could possibly love her that much. And then of course Oliver jumping into a relationship with Sara only a few weeks later probably confirmed her own thoughts - that Oliver liked her only as a friend. However, I felt like she probably started changing that mindset during the 5 months between s2 and s3, with their increase in flirting and whatever else happened after Oliver's 'confession' at the mansion. And maybe in 301 she allowed herself to think about it a little more, only to have that hope dashed the same episode. So she probably went back to ignoring her own feelings and deciding that Oliver made a mistake as a way of protecting herself. But the thing is, every development in her relationship with Ray comes on the heels of something happening with Oliver. She accepted his offer to work for him after Oliver said he was going to end up dead like Sara. She kissed Ray after hearing Oliver say he couldn't be with anyone and had to be alone. She slept with him when Ray told her exactly what she wanted to hear from Oliver and also when Oliver left, yet again, to die. So while I think it's obvious she does love Oliver very much, she is clearly excellent at compartmentalizing her feelings but also seems quite afraid to let herself dwell on them. Just the way she changed her look after Cooper 'died' in the flashbacks in 305 made it seem like she just gets on with things rather than ruminates about what happened. I feel that's why she sometimes comes across as not loving Oliver because in her mind what's done is done and she has to move past that and there's no point dwelling on it. Basically I think Felicity is so afraid of love and getting hurt by it (and being left behind) that she refuses to even acknowledge what exactly she's feeling. She really needs to feel secure in what she's being offered before she willingly puts her heart out there. Ray's offering what she wants right now but she really wants that from Oliver. If only she had someone to talk to about it…Sigh. Sorry. I kind of went off tangent there but yeah. That's how I feel about the whole situation. It's shitty but I do understand it and that's why I'm still rooting for Olicity all the way, even if they're kind of annoying me right now. Edited March 5, 2015 by Guest Link to comment
dtissagirl March 5, 2015 Share March 5, 2015 (edited) Imo there's been nothing in the text of the show right now that tells me that the feelings between Oliver and Felicity -- expressed or not -- are over, or have diminished. Even with Palmer happening. Even with plot-driven Oliver doing his thing. But I realize that a lot of my lenience with this paring relies on the two previous seasons, and the few selected episodes this season, that have endeared Oliver, Felicity, and their relationship to me before The Dumb settled. Otoh, there's nothing in the romantic storyline right now that I actually wanna watch, so I kinda understand it when someone says F/O are over for them because of what has happened between F/O this season alone. Because I get that bad writing tends to kill whatever previous emotional attachment an audience had before The Dumb. Sadly, looking forward, I think it's more likely The Dumb will make me quit, rather than stick it out for the HEA. Edited March 5, 2015 by dancingnancy 6 Link to comment
apinknightmare March 5, 2015 Share March 5, 2015 Not sure what it would take to ruin O/F for me as a ship, but I'm not even remotely there yet. I don't care about Ray, I don't care about the stupid decisions Felicity makes in reaction to Oliver with him - I've slipped on my bad idea jeans when it came to relationships more times than I care to admit, unfortunately, and I know the people behind this show are desperate to make him happen and are using her to do it. And I don't care about Oliver being a dumbass as far as it relates to him and Felicity, because him being a dumbass is to keep Malcolm relevant and to enable this dumb ass Ra's Ollie Ghul (thank you, creator) storyline. Granted, a bonus for the writers is that it does create Oliver/Felicity conflict, but Felicity doesn't even make me mad about that, because I agree with her sentiments. I don't agree with the way she's delivering them necessarily, but I guess I can't have everything. I wish they'd talk it out so I could feel better about the whole thing, but I believe that Oliver would still do what he's doing with Malcolm and Felicity would still be against it, so I do have that going for me, which is nice. I'm in it for the rest of the season, if only because I'm too invested/morbidly curious to see where this whole storyline goes and how the teases we've gotten play out (or don't, if history is any indication). If I'm out at the end of the season, it won't be because of O/F. If I'm still in at the end of the season, it will be because of them, I'm sure. 8 Link to comment
statsgirl March 5, 2015 Share March 5, 2015 I'm pretty such that Olicity is not over, it's just taking a Stupid Break. There's no real logic to their actions, it's been demanded by The Writers because there seems to be a Television Law that as soon as two people are happy and comfortable with each other, they must be broken up and made miserable. I have no interest in seeing either Oliver or Felicity in the next group of episodes. I've reached the limit of how much dumbass Oliver and I can, and with Ra's giving him the offer, I know it's going to continue. I can say without doubt that while Ray and Felicity could be fun as friends, I hate with the fire of a thousand suns the idea that they are sleeping together and having to watch the next set of episodes. This is the point where I usually take a break from the show. I did it season 9 of ER, I did it seasons 3 and 4 of Castle. Luckily I'm not a TV reviewer and I don't have to stick around and watch that mess. 1 Link to comment
wonderwall March 5, 2015 Share March 5, 2015 I think what would kill O/F for me would be if either of them cheated on one another... Or something equivalent to that sort of deception. They haven't gotten to that point, and I don't think they will. And if it DOES happen, it'll be so forced because we know O/F respect each other too much to hurt each other that way. 4 Link to comment
Ang March 5, 2015 Share March 5, 2015 I completely agree that cheating on either party's part (or with each other if Felicity is with Ray, for example) would really taint that relationship for me. I watched some early S2 episodes today, at least one of which for the first time (I'd only read summaries and seen clips before) and I'm understanding the longing for TA:Original Flavor all the more now. They worked so well together and there was so much respect, tolerance, and affection. I especially loved Felicity's almost-background relationship with DIggle. Those two have, by 3x15, spent a TON of time together, and they had a true friendship and genuine love for each other demonstrated throughout S2. We've seen so little of it in S3. Are we to assume Felicity withdrew from him, too, when she started trying to move on from Oliver in 3x02? Or that Oliver's death drove a wedge between them? We've just seen so little direct interaction between the two, and those early episodes make me miss it. I'm also amused by how handsy Felicity is, not just with Oliver but with everyone. She hugs, kisses cheeks, touches hands and faces, grabs arms (including Quentin's - hee!), pokes chests. And in S2 the reactions to that were so fun - various people look down in disbelief, respond stiffly, are visibly charmed or mutually affectionate, and Felicity herself is occasionally taken aback by her own forwardness. It's another bit of characterization we've kind of lost in S3 that I've missed. 9 Link to comment
statsgirl March 5, 2015 Share March 5, 2015 Poor Felicity has been so traumatized in s3, no wonder she's not handsey any more. The girl really needs some PTSD therapy instead of separating her from her friends. I think the Diggle/Felicity friendship fell prey to MG's determination to move beyond O/D/F and he threw out the baby with the bath water. Diggle was pretty much cut off from Oliver except for the odd "I don't want to die down here scene" or going to Felicity all Team Oliver, and Felicity was emotionally cut off from Oliver, Diggle and Roy, and physically given to Ray and Laurel. I really wanted Diggle to give two shakes about how Felicity was feeling to be rejected again and again by Oliver but he only cared how Oliver was doing and Felicity got left out of 'warm and happy times chez Diggle'. One of the nice things about Nanda Parbat was that Diggle finally was able to share some bro' time again with Oliver, but it just made it more glaring how along Felicity is this season. 2 Link to comment
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