Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wonderwall]

When did Oliver and Felicity find out that they loved each other?

 

Oliver: I think that what's funny is that Oliver is the most emotionally constipated man on that show, but when it comes to his feelings about Felicity, it's just crystal clear. Granted, it wasn't always so obvious to him, but he got there in the end. I don't personally believe that there was a moment when Oliver went "Oh, I love her". I think it was a slow process of building a friendship, then a partnership, then something more. It started with a friendly love and somehow veered its way into romantic love. I honestly think it's a culmination of everything they've been through and a realization that maybe he can't really see a future without her. 

 

Felicity: It's interesting the dichotomy Oliver and Felicity create in terms of their feelings towards each other. While Oliver knows he loves her, I don't think Felicity knows how she feels about him or cares to acknowledge the depth of them even though she's the most emotionally healthy, and I can't blame her. Felicity is a woman who's been abandoned by her father and deems herself terminally single as just about every man she's kissed or had a relationship walked away from her. It's no wonder Felicity has trouble opening herself up to men or people in general, because I think she has some serious abandonment issues. This teamed with the fact that Oliver's never really had a great track record and had never really been honest with how he felt until the mid-season finale, I completely understand why Felicity would keep herself from falling in love with him, or at least repress her feelings just for the sake of her heart. While Felicity knows she really cares about Oliver and is attracted to him, she restrains herself because crushing and lusting on people is so much easier to get over than love. I hope that the back half of the season explores Felicity's feelings towards Oliver while he's not there. 

Edited December 19, 2014 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

I wouldn't have minded if they had actually explored Oliver's and Sara's relationship when they were with each other.  There's huge conflict in their history -- she liked him but Laurel arranged to get there first, he asked her on the boat and she agreed but then she 'died' but really she was tortured, and then they got together briefly but she 'died' again and now that they're both back in Starling City, what exactly are they?  Are they a passing fancy?  Old friends who had been lovers temporarily?  Two ships who should have connected but never had the chance to?   There's a ton of unfinished business there but the show was so busy burning through storylines and the Lance Family Drama, we never really got to see what Oliver and Sara were to each other. And now we never will.

 

In 3x02 when Felicity asks Oliver why he's so stoic when Sara "your Sara" is lying there dead, it was the first time I really felt what they could have been to each other.

 

I'm not sure that Felicity has acknowledged the depth of her feelings for Oliver. I think it's going to hit her when he doesn't come back and she's going to be devastated. Especially about not returning the I love you. And that's why I can't see her in a relationship with Ray. I could maybe see a grief stricken hook up, but even that's a stretch. Eventually, sure, if Oliver remained dead, but to just move on right now doesn't make any sense.

You know how Stephen Amells said at SDCC that Oliver would have only one woman this season because to have the caravan of women through his bedroom would undersell what they do in the season opener?

 

Well IMO that to have Felicity start a relationship with Ray two months after that goodbye scene and Oliver's kiss would completely go against not only the goodbye but all Felicity's emotions we've been shown over the past two seasons.

 

Felicity spent five years being single because of a guy she thought died in jail because of her.  It makes no sense at all for her to move on to Ray so fast.  (Not to mention, if the fandom turned against Sara for sleeping with Oliver, it's a mere shadow of what they'll do if Ray sleeps with Felicity, and the EPs want people to like Ray.)

 

 Meanwhile, even apart from Oliver's concern that being with Felicity might and did distract him from Arrow work, putting people at risk, and the concern that Felicity could become a target for Oliver's enemies if these enemies realize how important she is to him (thanks Slade), three of the seven women we've seen Oliver sleep with on the show died violent deaths (Shado, Isabel, Sara); one was badly physically wounded (McKenna); one was badly emotionally wounded to the point of developing a substance abuse problem and taking unsafe risks (Laurel).  There's also the implication that he helped ruin another relationship by sleeping with a woman right after the rehearsal dinner for her wedding.  The only woman that we've seen come off unscathed from this (relatively) is the mother of Oliver's child, who seems to have just been a pre-island one night stand.  And Oliver is pretty emotionally messed up. 

Wow. Forget the 582 women that Oliver already slept with. If Felicity is superhero catnip, Oliver is poison to any woman who gets seriously involved with him.

[BkWurm1]

I completely understand why Felicity would keep herself from falling in love with him, or at least repress her feelings just for the sake of her heart. While Felicity knows she really cares about Oliver and is attracted to him, she restrains herself because crushing and lusting on people is so much easier to get over than love. I hope that the back half of the season explores Felicity's feelings towards Oliver while he's not there.

 

I think she tried to keep herself from falling.  I think she tried to repress her feelings.  And I think she failed.  She's loved quietly from other side of the room from at least since she went back on all her ranting and served him a cup of coffee just because he looked sad.  She loved him when she got on a plane and was willing to jump out of it once it flew to the other side of the world.  She loved him enough to wish for his happiness even when she didn't think she would be a part of that future.  She loved him when she quieted all the discordant voices and sent him with her blessing to do whatever he needed to do.  And so many more little moments. 

 

I think Felicity knows she's in love with him.  That's what those quiet dreams are all about.  I don't think being in love with him is at odds with trying to move on when she thought/knows he won't be with her.  I think if she loved him less, it would be easier for her to just quit and restart her life.  But even though she won't bury her head in the darkness and wait silently for death to claim Oliver, she won't abandon that niche she has carved out for herself in his life and his world.  (Yes, her contributions to the team are about more than just her feelings for Oliver, but she's smart enough that at this point she knows if all she wanted to do was contribute and make a difference, she could find other ways to satisfy that desire without the Oliver issue, but she choses to stay.) 

 

I agree that she didn't let herself think Oliver could love her until after Unthinkable, but I think she knew she loved him long before he and Sara ever got together.  I suppose it's possible that she tried for a very long time not to put a name to the emotion but I think she's too self aware not to know what she is feeling eventually when she is running to him and throwing her arms around him or even just that stab of pain in Russia would wake her up, but since in her mind, it was one sided, she very practically set it aside.  I don't think her feelings went away but she is not the kind of person who will let herself pine.  Or at least not very often. 

 

Felicity for all her run on sentences and open and cheerful manner, she's not ruled by her emotions.  She's not as extreme as Oliver who refuses at times to let himself act like he even has emotions, but she makes choices and processes news in a far more level headed manner than say Thea or Laurel.  I think the closest we've seen to her making an emotional decision was when she accepted Palmer's job offer rather than just sitting around and wasting what life she still had.  It's that logical, pragmatic problem solving side that makes her so great with computers and technology.  That's why I think that she is able to accept that she loves Oliver and at the same time put up a wall between them.

 

I think the wall is what lets her function like life is normal and it's certainly the wall that lets her consider other men, but I don't think that stops her from loving him or being in love with him.  It does keep her from saying the words aloud when by all pragmatic logic, there is no upside to saying what she feels.  I'm sure she told her Daddy she loved him, but that didn't keep him from walking away. 

Edited December 19, 2014 by BkWurm1

[Ariah]

All this discussion made me wonder when I started to ship Felcity and Oliver. I remember at first I went with Laurel (the beginning of S1), because I remembered KC from Supernatural and liked her there. Also, the show was touching all the romance tropes from the book with them - on the surface.

 

However, I think the moment I saw Felicity and heard her bubbling (and saw Oliver's genuine reaction to her) I realized that would be cool if they got together.

 

But Felicity was just like us, regular girls: she had a crush on the hero, she wanted to be close to him, but she knew she's not really a part of his story. His story was with someone else ("Gorgeous Laurel", "Leggy model type"). And it was - sort of - fine. Untill it wasn't. Untill we felt along with Felicity how weird and disjointed Oliver acted when he got together with Sara. (Still, we knew it was not our story. We were never the girl in the story).

 

And then, the unthinkable happened: the hero confessed his love.

Which was a ruse.

But it wasn't.

 

And the girl that was not in the story, became the story. Because she was worth it. She was worth being not only a part, but a center of the hero's life. And the tiny sparks of affection, the tiny glimmers of hope that I as the person watching saw between Oliver and Felicity (but deemed them to be just in my mind, not the mind of the producers, because - canon) burst into a full-fledged flame.

 

Thus, a part of me adores Olicity because it shows that a regular girl, a girl who is not a skilled fighter, a girl who babbles and can be awkward, a girl who did not originate in the canon - can become the heart of the story. And if she can, we all can.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Ariah

[Kordi]

"Thus, a part of me adores Olicity because it shows that a regular girl, a girl who is not a skilled fighter, a girl who babbles and can be awkward, a girl who did not originated in the canon - can become the heart of the story. And if she can, we all can."

AMEN to everything you said. I agree entirely. :-) I think this is one reason why Olicity is so special. Because it is a love between a superhero and "one of/like us". Thus we can identify ourselves with one of the two lovers and thereby take part in this relationship in a way we couldn't if it were a love story between two larger-than-life superheroes.

[lakadyn]

True love kiss .... Awwww.

Honestly, I saw all the emotions from Amell in that kiss and how he played Oliver but not much from Felicity/Emily.

 

Yes I keep saying Oliver kissed Felicity but she never kissed him back. I think it's a conscious decision from EBR. And I support it, if a guy tells you he loves you but can't be with you, what are you to do? 

 

But Felicity was just like us, regular girls: she had a crush on the hero, she wanted to be cloe to him, but she knew she's not really a part of his story. His story was with someone else ("Gorgeous Laurel", "Leggy model type"). And it was - sort of - fine. Untill it wasn't. Untill we felt along with Felicity how weird and disjointed Oliver acted when he got together with Sara. (Still, we knew it was not our story. We were never the girl in the story).

 

And then, the unthinkable happened: the hero confessed his love.

Which was a ruse.

But it wasn't.

 

 I adore your analysis of the reason we all love this ship. "The regular girl" thing is so on point. I joined this forum for this post alone reposted on Tumblr.

Hi to everybody btw, first post here. :)

[Pyramid]

All this discussion made me wonder when I started to ship Felcity and Oliver. I remember at first I went with Laurel (the beginning of S1), because I remembered KC from Supernatural and liked her there. Also, the show was touching all the romance tropes from the book with them - on the surface.

 

However, I think the moment I saw Felicity and heard her bubbling (and saw Oliver's genuine reaction to her) I realized that would be cool if they got together.

 

But Felicity was just like us, regular girls: she had a crush on the hero, she wanted to be close to him, but she knew she's not really a part of his story. His story was with someone else ("Gorgeous Laurel", "Leggy model type"). And it was - sort of - fine. Untill it wasn't. Untill we felt along with Felicity how weird and disjointed Oliver acted when he got together with Sara. (Still, we knew it was not our story. We were never the girl in the story).

 

And then, the unthinkable happened: the hero confessed his love.

Which was a ruse.

But it wasn't.

 

And the girl that was not in the story, became the story. Because she was worth it. She was worth being not only a part, but a center of the hero's life. And the tiny sparks of affection, the tiny glimmers of hope that I as the person watching saw between Oliver and Felicity (but deemed them to be just in my mind, not the mind of the producers, because - canon) burst into a full-fledged flame.

 

Thus, a part of me adores Olicity because it shows that a regular girl, a girl who is not a skilled fighter, a girl who babbles and can be awkward, a girl who did not originate in the canon - can become the heart of the story. And if she can, we all can.

Well speaking as a male I find in my life as a superhero I would definitely go for a Felicity before a Laurel.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Edited to move to proper thread

Edited December 19, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[Happy Harpy]

Taken from my post in the Hopes and Fears thread:

   

I do think that Ray reflects badly on Felicity, and it will be worse if they get into a romantic relationship but thankfully, this is the third season. The audience can tell whether a character is written OOC and imo, it has already been the case in the whole Ray/Felicity thing.

I have many problems with the Ray/Felicity relationship and the way it was developped, and I won't reopen the stalking-or-not-stalking debate (although for the record, I'm totes in the first camp) but here are the three main reasons why it turns me off and irks me to no end.

 

First reason mentioned in the quote: for me, Felicity is often written OOC and it reflects badly on her.

-I respect and applaud her desire to move on* since Oliver doesn't want to risk a relationship with her. I've never seen her as pining for him, I think that until the ILY in the Queen Mansion she didn't imagine in a million year that Oliver could have romantic feelings for her and was at peace with it, so I'm glad that she isn't pining for him now that she knows he does. But since the Calm made it clear  that she wants to be with Oliver, since she admitted aloud that he's the one she loves in the Flash 1-04 (oh yes! I watched this one, too) what I can't imagine is that she'd try to move on by settling -imo, she's been portrayed as too honest with others and herself, almost to a fault, for her to involve with someone while still having feelings for somebody else. See: Allen, Barry. Even back in S2, her flirtation with Barry turned more into friendship, imo, when he made her realize she had feelings for Oliver. I can't see her engaging in a relationship unless she's definitely over Oliver -dead or alive, available or not: It isn't about him, but about her.

-IIRC, and I think I do, Felicity is well aware that Ray used underhanded tactics to take over QC. So I can't wrap my head around her speech about 50 Shades' honesty and loyalty and whatnot -sorry, I didn't watch it so I don't have the verbatim, but hey, I didn't get an acute eye rolling case either. This doesn't sound like smart and blunt Felicity Smoak at all. OOC in order to prop the last writers' pet, then, imho.

 

The second reason why Ray/Felicity irks me, is Ray. Not even in his polarizing way of "courting" her, in the conception of the character. Because so far, I feel that Ray is only defined as "the one who takes Oliver's place": at the head of QC, in Felicity's life, on the salmon ladder and possibly as one of the city's vigilantes. But the  2 years + of show give Oliver so much depth that it automatically makes Ray bland and shallow in my eyes in comparison, making him not Oliver-like, but Oliver-lite. And it's not his generic sob-story -really, they had nothing more compelling or original in store?- that is going to make him his own character in my eyes.  This makes a possible Ray/Felicity romantic relationship all the more "settling" in my book. Felicity is my favorite character, so I want better for her than what is for me a pale copy of the one she really wants. And accepting this would reflect badly on her character, imo.

 

The third reason is related. Ray/Felicity was planned, is "written", and it shows. The attempt at screwball comedy in 3-05 was all ropes showing, and I can't for the life of me imagine how it could ever compare to a relationship born from the show's dynamic.

After 2+ years of Oliver/Felicity relationship developping from allies to friends, and after all those battles they led together, the "crucibles" they went through together, how they suffered, how they smiled together, after I saw their bond deepen and strengthen onscreen for all this time, Ray/Felicity lacks any substance, emotion, or grip. It seems shallow and empty, it's such an artificial non-entity that it can't even be deemed a pale copy imo.  I can't believe that something so vapid is touted as a possible romantic alternative and it annoys me to no end.

 

*Although very honestly, her reaction at the end of the Calm doesn't really compute either. I can't help but think that after Oliver admitted he loved her, after it was obvious that he wanted her, wanted to be with her but thought he couldn't, The Real Miss Smoak would have had none of that manpain crap and would have reacted to Oliver's discourse with some romantic version of “You're not done fighting” and “My life, my choice”. But of course, Oliver/Felicity had to be broken-up for plot-drivel, er, plot-driven reasons.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[statsgirl]

I think the wall is what lets her function like life is normal and it's certainly the wall that lets her consider other men, but I don't think that stops her from loving him or being in love with him.  It does keep her from saying the words aloud when by all pragmatic logic, there is no upside to saying what she feels.  I'm sure she told her Daddy she loved him, but that didn't keep him from walking away. 

And Oliver said he loved her, but that didn't stop him from walking away and going to fight Ra's al Ghul.

 

That's one of the amazing things about Felicity -- that she's so open and loving even though she keeps losing those she loves. Her father left her when she was a child, she thought that her love (i.e. hacking ability) caused Cooper's death, Sara has just died, and now Oliver is going off the battle Ra's.  And yet she keeps loving.  (It's an interesting contrast to Laurel, who shuts people out when she gets  hurt, for years.)

 

: for me, Felicity is often written OOC and it reflects badly on her.

I'm kind of torn on that.  I think the writing could have been much smoother, and I don't find Ray nearly as charming as the EPs do, but I do understand Felicity to some extent.  For almost two years, she thought she didn't have a shot with Oliver except as a friend, and then suddenly she did, and then almost as soon, he ended it. Then Sara died and he shut down around her. There weren't even the touches on her shoulder any more, or the soft voice.  So she concluded, as she told Ray, that Oliver regretted kissing her.  And because she's just about the bravest person on the show, instead of shutting down herself, she went forward with life, to a new job, a new challenge, and when Ray kissed her, possibly a new relationship.

 

I think it depends on where they go now whether the Raylicity thing will work for me or not.  Oliver's last words before leaving were "I love you".  I can perfectly understand Felicity trying to bury her grief in helping Ray with his suit; but to date Ray would be OOC for her IMO.

[BkWurm1]

I can perfectly understand Felicity trying to bury her grief in helping Ray with his suit; but to date Ray would be OOC for her IMO.

 

Agreed. 

 

I have not hugely had a problem with the decisions and choices that Felicity has made thus far in regards to her working relationship with Ray or even the dinner and kiss.  (Had a harder time understanding the speech of praise than the kiss, lol) but unless the show does a massive time jump of like a year, at this point with what Oliver said, I can't imagine Felicity getting into a real relationship with Ray.  Sadly that does leave the possibility of some kind of grief hook up even thought that feels extremely out of character for Felicity the terminally single.  IF that kind of hook up did happen (shudder, please, please, please no) then I'd expect for her to immediately call it a mistake and go back to strictly business.

 

Again, I think it would be horribly out of character for Felicity to turn to Ray in that way but this is the CW.  Is the network really going to let the show go on much longer with nobody having had sex yet this year?

 

Suddenly I'm praying for sexy times with Laurel and Wildcat.  Hell, I'll throw Thea under the bus with douchebag DJ boy. 

[Password]

Eh I don't think they'll hook up before Oliver returns. But after that, the bets are off.

I had no time for Oliver and Sara, I have very little time for Felicity and Ray. I've side eye'd Felicity's "aw he's so sweet" attitude towards Ray since ep 7 so I'm preparing my soul for some SERIOUS crap thrown my way.

[BkWurm1]

Eh I don't think they'll hook up before Oliver returns. But after that, the bets are off.

 

If Oliver comes back and AGAIN says, nope, can't be with you.  Yeah.  Except if he does that, I think I'd be ok with Felicity dating Ray.  I mean, seriously, dude, change your tune.   

[Password]

If Oliver comes back and AGAIN says, nope, can't be with you. Yeah. Except if he does that, I think I'd be ok with Felicity dating Ray. I mean, seriously, dude, change your tune.

Mmm then of course we have that line about "I don't want to be a woman you love", which I am assuming comes from Felicity. I for one really hope Oliver doesn't come back 50 shades of messed up because....just why? AGAIN???? If he doesn't, I'd love to see Felicity being more than hesitant to get into anything with him knowing he's accepts death the way he does.

...frankly if he rejects her again, do you thing Felicity. Can't stand that it's Ray, but unfortunately he's whom we've been given.

But I'm hesitant to say that because, didn't one of the EPs say we'd be surprised how much humanity Oliver wants back? Have we already been surprised or are they keeping that for the final 3 episodes of season 3?

ETA: Actually I retract that "do your thing". I would like to see her at LEAST ask him why he keeps saying he loves her then retracting it. These two need to desperately TALK to each other. No more tunning scared damn it.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Limbo

[BkWurm1]

Mmm then of course we have that line about "I don't want to be a woman you love", which I am assuming comes from Felicity. I for one really hope Oliver doesn't come back 50 shades of messed up because....just why? AGAIN???? If he doesn't, I'd love to see Felicity being more than hesitant to get into anything with him knowing he's accepts death the way he does.

...frankly if he rejects her again, do you thing Felicity. Can't stand that it's Ray, but unfortunately he's whom we've been given.

But I'm hesitant to say that because, didn't one of the EPs say we'd be surprised how much humanity Oliver wants back? Have we already been surprised or are they keeping that for the final 3 episodes of season 3?

ETA: Actually I retract that "do your thing". I would like to see her at LEAST ask him why he keeps saying he loves her then retracting it. These two need to desperately TALK to each other. No more tunning scared damn it.

Moving to speculations without spoilers.

[Velocity23]

I would say Donna Smoak comes back to town and hooks up with Quentin. Wasnt there some implying that Charlotte Ross will be back.

[Orion]

Agreed. 

 

I have not hugely had a problem with the decisions and choices that Felicity has made thus far in regards to her working relationship with Ray or even the dinner and kiss.  (Had a harder time understanding the speech of praise than the kiss, lol) but unless the show does a massive time jump of like a year, at this point with what Oliver said, I can't imagine Felicity getting into a real relationship with Ray.  Sadly that does leave the possibility of some kind of grief hook up even thought that feels extremely out of character for Felicity the terminally single.  IF that kind of hook up did happen (shudder, please, please, please no) then I'd expect for her to immediately call it a mistake and go back to strictly business.

 

Again, I think it would be horribly out of character for Felicity to turn to Ray in that way but this is the CW.  Is the network really going to let the show go on much longer with nobody having had sex yet this year?

 

Suddenly I'm praying for sexy times with Laurel and Wildcat.  Hell, I'll throw Thea under the bus with douchebag DJ boy. 

 

I don't want them hooking up while he's "dead" or ever but I'll understand it if she does. I mean Oliver just dangled the ultimate maybe in front of her. He said I love you and then turned and left. Leaving Felicity to process that every "quiet dream she kept to herself" was about to come true. She's sitting in the foundry dreaming about what will happen when Oliver comes back from his dual with Ra's. She's picturing a future with him every minutes he's gone. She doesn't know he's not coming back, she's making plans and hoping. And everyday that goes by with no Oliver each one of those dreams is dying slowly and painfully as the fear that he's not coming back is creeping in.  If I were her I would be incredibly angry at Oliver when he comes back. If he had just not said that she would have to deal with the loss of a friend and a man she loves but because Oliver voiced her dreams they became more real and they died right along with Oliver.  He dangled not just a possibility this time but the full I love you. 

 

I think one of the hardest things as a viewer of Arrow to watch is that so many character moments that the people not Oliver miss out on would make their positions so much easier to understand. Will Felicity be settling with Ray? Of course, but that doesn't mean what they have wouldn't feel good. Ray praises her and compliments her and doesn't leave her alone to go save the city. For her being with Ray wouldn't be a "soul crushing" exercise in fear of his death and losing him. Right now he's just a guy who likes a girl. That has to feel so normal and nice. But the important thing for me to remember is that Felicity doesn't have all the information we have. She doesn't know she's involved in the "epic" romance of Arrow. She doesn't know that Oliver is the big forever and ever love that I'm hoping he is for her. And up until a week ago she didn't even believe that he loved her. She doesn't know that he told Digg that he doesn't want to die. And she doesn't know that he rethought what he said to Cupid and went to go talk to her. Felicity is dealing with limited information  that would make her feel differently. And while I won't like her moving on with Ray lots and lots of people find rebound relationships because they make the pain of breaking up with someone less. They let you get distracted and make you feel good. At this point Felicity has had to watch Oliver practically go off and commit suicide 3 times. She's had to talk him up and cheer him on. Being Felicity must be emotionally exhausting and I won't blame if she just wants something simple and nice; something that isn't going to break her or hurt her like Oliver's death. Is it the true, amazing love she has with Oliver? No, but it feels good and she's spent a lot of time hurting.

 

I think that speech about Ray was not about Ray at all and I think the show was trying to make that point. While she's talking to the Gardner's she's not looking at Ray, she's looking away, almost dreamy like and then as soon as she finishes talking the screen cuts to a shot of Oliver. I thought she was projecting in that scene. But on paper, again, I can't blame her. Ignoring the interpersonal problems Ray has,  he's a good person. He wants to give free electricity to the city, he wants to use QC to bring Starling City back, he tells her she's smart and important. We've seen how Felicity lights up when Oliver compliments her (I rely on you, we need you here, Pride). Ray's been telling her all season how important she is to him, for her brain while Oliver's been telling her to get her head in game.

 

I just think the producers are trying to walk a very fine line of presenting an alternative, the blue pen (to use other people's observation) while trying desperately not to break their red pen. It's not an easy thing to do. Ray has to be a good guy because he's Ray Palmer and he wouldn't be a legit choice if he was a villain but he can't be so perfect that Raylicity sets sail. I know I'm in the minority but so far I think they are doing a good job on Oliver and Felicity's story. It's everything else that I think is headed toward being a hot mess.

[statsgirl]

I could see Ray as a viable alternative relationship when she thought that Oliver didn't care about her.  But now she knows that he does, and she's scared that he's dead, or maybe she finds out that he's actually dead.

 

It took her five years to find another relationship she wanted to have after Cooper.  It took Ray six months after losing his fiance to find himself kissing another woman.  I can't see Felicity moving on to another man, even for comfort, so soon after Oliver's declaration that he loved her..

[SmallScreenDiva]

I agree. After that ILY from Oliver, it would be really difficult for Felicity to move on. But then again, it still is "just" an ILY. There's no promise that they'd try to work it out. That Oliver's feelings about pursuing a relationship with her has changed. There's not even a promise that he'll come back. Does it really change anything? Hopefully, because now thre's no room for maybes. Oliver told Felicity flatout. What I would love to see now is Felicity calling Oliver out on his BS about them.

[statsgirl]

If Oliver comes back and does his "I love you but I can't be with anyone because of what I do" again, I hope Felicity throws her hands up in the air (and throws something at him but not Fernlicity), and tries to move on with her life.

[tv echo]

Here's my discomfort with Ray... if he and Felicity got together, I can see him secretly drugging her and implanting a tracker under her skin while she's unconscious, so that he will always know where she is - and he'll justify it to himself as protecting her so that she doesn't get killed like his fiance Anna.

[BkWurm1]

He doesn't have to plant a tracker. He already knows how to find her.

[Password]

He doesn't have to plant a tracker. He already knows how to find her.

Shocking.

[ostentatious]

If Oliver comes back and does his "I love you but I can't be with anyone because of what I do" again, I hope Felicity throws her hands up in the air (and throws something at him but not Fernlicity), and tries to move on with her life.

I think this is exactly what will happen. I think they want to let Raylicity occur for a few eps, and I think they want to delay Olicity a while longer. So, this would be the solution. I'm not sure what song Oliver will be singing, but it'll have the same results.

[BkWurm1]

I just can't imagine Oliver singing that same tune.  At the very least he's got to tweak the chords so he can't be with her for other reasons. 

[dtissagirl]

It's like they can't avoid the typical storytelling formulas, so BY THE TV GODS, now that Felicity is the leading romantic interest, she has to have at least one on-screen present time relationship with a dude who's more or less an avatar of Our Hero, almost as if by default.

 

I really wish they'd break that mold, but the mere existence of Crazy Eyes, and the kiss, and the discussion of the kiss, and his sob story, tells me they'll stick to the tropes. SIGH.

[apinknightmare]

I just can't imagine Oliver singing that same tune. At the very least he's got to tweak the chords so he can't be with her for other reasons.

Maybe he'll see how devastated she is when she thinks he's dead and use that? I hope beyond hope this show surprises me.

[BkWurm1]

I guess the show could swing it around and have Felicity the one only dangling maybes, though I can't see that really happening.  The other route is the misunderstanding where Oliver comes back ready and Felicity is ready but they both or one of them thinks the other isn't ready and they pretend so then they both think it's not happening, though that would mean ruining the one tiny upside to the Olicity mess - the part where at least all the heartbreak isn't because no one has bothered to actually have a proper conversation. 

[statsgirl]

All these are really bad tropes, and  yet we're expecting one if not more to happen.

 

I wish this show would go back to when it worked against all expectations, and did the amazing thing.

[Password]

I wish this show would go back to when it worked against all expectations, and did the amazing thing.

Like when the Glades were half destroyed. Jaw dropping stuff and I loved it.

I give this show THIS season to get tropey crap out of the way. After that I have no time.

[ostentatious]

I think the best we can hope for is that whatever happens to Oliver in the interim, whatever the circumstances of his return, there will actually be something specific that he riffs off of that informs the song he sings. Right now not knowing if he's actually going to be up to something, or comatose, or imprisoned, or whatever, hard to even venture a guess.

 

All I know is that if they want me to believe that those two don't hit the nearest horizontal or vertical or slightly inclined surface and commence The Fuckening as soon as he walks in, they better get to work on some justification. Because alllllll that was ever needed was *Felicity* to get physical. The only physical moves she's made on him were hugs at moments of great emotional upset. If she'd spent a year and a half making sweet gentle love to his shoulders and upper arms and cupping his face etc etc, they would've been banging a year and five months ago, tops. I think that Felicity is over her reticence now, so another barrier must be erected.

Edited December 22, 2014 by ostentatious

[Chiny11]

I think the best we can hope for is that whatever happens to Oliver in the interim, whatever the circumstances of his return, there will actually be something specific that he riffs off of that informs the song he sings. Right now not knowing if he's actually going to be up to something, or comatose, or imprisoned, or whatever, hard to even venture a guess.

All I know is that if they want me to believe that those two don't hit the nearest horizontal or vertical or slightly inclined surface and commence The Fuckening as soon as he walks in, they better get to work on some justification. Because alllllll that was ever needed was *Felicity* to get physical. The only physical moves she's made on him were hugs at moments of great emotional upset. If she'd spent a year and a half making sweet gentle love to his shoulders and upper arms and cupping his face etc etc, they would've been banging a year and five months ago, tops. I think that Felicity is over her reticence now, so another barrier must be erected.

Nothing to add..except to state,

1. Hilarious post... Love it

[dtissagirl]

Felicity should just introduce Laurel and Crazy Eyes, seriously. They'd be PERFECT for each other.

[calliope1975]

Felicity should just introduce Laurel and Crazy Eyes, seriously. They'd be PERFECT for each other.

 

I don't even like Ray and yet I like him too much to wish this upon him. Laurel's fine over with Blandy McWildcat. Away. Far away. I would still rather Ray discover he's bisexual (based on nothing whatsoever.)

[statsgirl]

As much as I'm not a fan of Raylicity, I don't dislike Ray enough to want him with Laurel.  Every time he got a great idea, she'd crush it unless she had thought of it first.  Every time he wanted to go off book in their relationship, she'd accuse him of disrespecting what she wants.

 

I think Laurel is better with Ted Grant -- they both tend to see things in black and white, and a fist to the jaw is their best way of settling disagreements.

[ostentatious]

As much as I'm not a fan of Raylicity, I don't dislike Ray enough to want him with Laurel.  Every time he got a great idea, she'd crush it unless she had thought of it first.  Every time he wanted to go off book in their relationship, she'd accuse him of disrespecting what she wants.

 

I think Laurel is better with Ted Grant -- they both tend to see things in black and white, and a fist to the jaw is their best way of settling disagreements.

I feel like Laurel and Ray are two people who *look* like they should be a couple but would be a disaster for exactly this reason.

 

He looks like a Financehole and she looks like That Woman Financeholes Marry, but he is not a Financehole. He's a kind of befuddled guy. She would *ruin* him. He'd be the saddest panda, if he was with her.

 

At least Tommy kind of liked being her submissive, you know? He's into that, he likes that whole vibe where he has to dance and perform to please a woman who is nearly impossible to please. He found it rewarding, gamboling about until she finally cracked a smile. Ray would just be confused and either check out entirely and not even hear her, or totally lose his confidence.

 

He needs someone blunt who will happily detail exactly what she expects out of him. Laurel would be a disaster for poor Ray, emotionally. I'm fine with Ted for her too, because I don't think any of her nonsense would even penetrate. He'd do how he do.

Edited December 22, 2014 by ostentatious

[dtissagirl]

Hee. I love this discussion because you guys clearly have thought a lot more about Crazy Eyes than I ever did. I just think neither Laurel nor CE are real characters -- imo they're badly put together pastiches of what three dimensional characters should actually be, but aren't. Hence, fitting.

[KirkB]

Now that you guys have me thinking about it, Ray would have been a better option for early Laurel than Oliver ever was. He's also a billionaire who seems more willing to acquiesce to his partners wants and needs. Oliver was a lying, cheating sleaze who banged his girlfriend's sister while she was looking for a place for them to live. 

 

As it stands now though, it's Laurel who is a terrible partner for...well, anybody really. I wouldn't even wish her on Grant and I don't care about him at all.

Edited December 22, 2014 by KirkB

[TanyaKay]

I don't even like Ray and yet I like him too much to wish this upon him. Laurel's fine over with Blandy McWildcat. Away. Far away. I would still rather Ray discover he's bisexual (based on nothing whatsoever.)

 

Holy shitballs, I actually spilled my tea on my phone reading this.

Imagine if both Ray and Roy discover they are bisexual and get together with each other - oh the confusion alone with their names would keep the spark alive for a very long time.

 

Laurel is too much of a hassle for any person. The only person I was okay with Laurel hooking up was Sebastian Blood because they both knew how to hold a grudge - esp if it against a family member, to lie to every one around them and make everything about themselves (remember Sebastian whining to Slade before the siege of the city). In the end, even Sebastian Blood did something heroic (delivered the mirakuru cure to Oliver at the cost of his life) for the city - something that Laurel has failed to do once in 2 and half seasons so even Sebastian Blood seems to be too good for her.

I now think she will need someone like Lord Voldemort to make a suitable romantic pairing.

[Danny Franks]

Hee. I love this discussion because you guys clearly have thought a lot more about Crazy Eyes than I ever did. I just think neither Laurel nor CE are real characters -- imo they're badly put together pastiches of what three dimensional characters should actually be, but aren't. Hence, fitting.

This is why they'd be fine together. The writers could write them however they like, and no one would care. Ray's out of character? Big deal, get Oliver and co on screen.

[statsgirl]

At least Tommy kind of liked being her submissive, you know? He's into that, he likes that whole vibe where he has to dance and perform to please a woman who is nearly impossible to please. He found it rewarding, gamboling about until she finally cracked a smile. Ray would just be confused and either check out entirely and not even hear her, or totally lose his confidence.

 

He needs someone blunt who will happily detail exactly what she expects out of him. Laurel would be a disaster for poor Ray, emotionally. I'm fine with Ted for her too, because I don't think any of her nonsense would even penetrate. He'd do how he do.

Poor Tommy, he really did do her well as her submissive.  (There's a reason he's a sub in the Queen/Merlyn and Smoaking Billionaires fic.)

 

Ted is someone who does what he does without thinking of the consequences on the other person, as he did dumping his acolyte.  This wouldn't be a problem for Laurel, she'd just tell him what she wanted him to do and how to do it, and they'd spend half their time together ignoring what the other wants.  A perfect match because they would fight to get what they want and no third person would end up getting hurt.

 

Laurel is The only person I was okay with Laurel hooking up was Sebastian Blood because they both knew how to hold a grudge - esp if it against a family member, to lie to every one around them and make everything about themselves (remember Sebastian whining to Slade before the siege of the city). In the end, even Sebastian Blood did something heroic (delivered the mirakuru cure to Oliver at the cost of his life) for the city - something that Laurel has failed to do once in 2 and half seasons so even Sebastian Blood seems to be too good for her.

It's early days yet, she still has 14 episodes to do something heroic.

 

You've convinced me that Blood was the man for her.  Too bad he's gone.

[TanyaKay]

Poor Tommy, he really did do her well as her submissive.  (There's a reason he's a sub in the Queen/Merlyn and Smoaking Billionaires fic.)

 

It's early days yet, she still has 14 episodes to do something heroic.

 

You've convinced me that Blood was the man for her.  Too bad he's gone.

 

You still think she'll do something heroic even when EPs are telling us that she's gonna get her ass whopped galactically.

 

Ah, I am glad I could convince at least one other person of my match making skills.

 

PS: I never bought Tommy and Laurel romance because I never could figure out why Tommy would even like her, let alone love her. Laurel was barely civil to him most of the time she was rather bitchy to him the other times and she would always liken him with Oliver who was a horrible boyfriend to her even when Tommy was nothing but gentle and kind to her. Tommy/Thea were my first OTP of the show and I will always resent the TPTB for making them siblings.

[statsgirl]

I think Tommy was a Lost Boy after his mother died.  Malcolm disappeared for years and he seemed to end up at the Queen household because he had no family of his own.  I imagine that Tommy took after his mother or maybe she played Malcolm false and someone else was Tommy's father because he was nothing like Malcolm at all.

 

I think one of the reasons Tommy was attracted to Laurel is that she was so definite, she had plans and she was going to stick to them while Tommy himself was lost.  She was also beautiful and smart, which he would have found attractive, and I wonder if the fact that she was Oliver's girl played in there too. She did support him to some extent when Malcolm cut him off, and when Tommy did as she told him to, she rewarded him.  It's said that we are attracted to people who are like our parents (Harville Hendrix says it's because we wanted to be taken care of the way our parents took care of us) and there are definitely some qualities the same between Laurel and Malcolm.

 

I don't think their marriage would have lasted, but it would have lasted longer than Laurel being married to Oliver because either Oliver would have cut and run or he would have done something that humiliated Laurel too much and she would have started looking around for husband #2. 

Edited December 23, 2014 by statsgirl

[MostlyC]

A gentle reminder, lovely Arrow people, that this thread is for all the relationships, not just one couple or friendship.  If you feel you are dwelling on a particular relationship, or that the board is, then perhaps it is time to explore another relationship for awhile.

 

 

 

 

I am now returning to making a bow and arrow out of candy canes, (now a bit grumpily)- if Ollie can't make an arrow out of a boxing glove, then surely I can pull this off.

[ostentatious]

I think Tommy was a Lost Boy after his mother died.  Malcolm disappeared for years and he seemed to end up at the Queen household because he had no family of his own.  I imagine that Tommy took after his mother or maybe she played Malcolm false and someone else was Tommy's father because he was nothing like Malcolm at all.

 

I think one of the reasons Tommy was attracted to Laurel is that she was so definite, she had plans and she was going to stick to them while Tommy himself was lost.  She was also beautiful and smart, which he would have found attractive, and I wonder if the fact that she was Oliver's girl played in there too. She did support him to some extent when Malcolm cut him off, and when Tommy did as she told him to, she rewarded him.  It's said that we are attracted to people who are like our parents (Harville Hendrix says it's because we wanted to be taken care of the way our parents took care of us) and there are definitely some qualities the same between Laurel and Malcolm.

 

I don't think their marriage would have lasted, but it would have lasted longer than Laurel being married to Oliver because either Oliver would have cut and run or he would have done something that humiliated Laurel too much and she would have started looking around for husband #2. 

I think this is a terrific analysis.

 

I see Tommy's mom as being like, one of those beautiful, indulgent mothers who lets their son sit nearby while she's at her vanity table, and she kind of treats him like a pet. A very loved pet, but still mama's pet, receiving attention when she felt like giving attention, but otherwise ignored. So, he'd spend his life looking for beautiful women to let him hang around them while they mostly ignored him but occasionally petted him when his gamboling about had entertained them enough for them to notice him. Always trying to be good enough, never really succeeding. So I think Laurel would have both the mother *and* the father angle covered for him.

[Orion]

I think this is a terrific analysis.

 

I see Tommy's mom as being like, one of those beautiful, indulgent mothers who lets their son sit nearby while she's at her vanity table, and she kind of treats him like a pet. A very loved pet, but still mama's pet, receiving attention when she felt like giving attention, but otherwise ignored. So, he'd spend his life looking for beautiful women to let him hang around them while they mostly ignored him but occasionally petted him when his gamboling about had entertained them enough for them to notice him. Always trying to be good enough, never really succeeding. So I think Laurel would have both the mother *and* the father angle covered for him.

 

See I disagree with that. Tommy's mom cared enough about the Glades to not only open a clinic (I can't remember if she was a doctor or just owned the clinic) but to go down there and be hands on with treating the poor in Starling City. She was even at a Subway station when she died. My guess was that Tommy's mother was the "good" parent. The one that was involved with raising Tommy while Malcolm built his business venture. After she died Tommy was lacking in a loving mother figure while Malcolm threw money at him on his way to Nada Parbat. Clearly Tommy didn't get the structure he needed growing up and he also told Oliver that his family was more of a family to him than his own so he didn't get the nurturing influence either.   

 

It's one of the reasons I never liked Laurel and Tommy together. Other than her comment to him at the charity ball he organized for her (he told she looked gorgeous and snipped that look who learned big words.) I always felt that Tommy needed a more gentle hand. Laurel would boss and guilt and demand but Tommy truly grew when he stepped away from both Laurel and his father and started running Oliver's club. I'm never a fan of a relationship when one member of it steam rolls another. Sub and dom are fine in the bedroom but Laurel had Tommy under her heel begging for scraps.

 

Like I said a while back if I have to see a Laurel relationship on screen imo she needs a Scarlett O'Hara or Taming of the Shrew type love interest. Someone who won't put up with it and will push back against her. Laurel needs a Alpha who is not impressed not a Beta that will bend to her will. 

Edited December 23, 2014 by Orion

[Sakura12]

It's early days yet, she still has 14 episodes to do something heroic.

 

Laurel's always saving the world. (according to the two people that were brutally killed for her "journey").

ETA, If Quentin says that to her this season. Say your goodbyes to him. That sentence activates the death curse.

 

All of Laurel's relationships have been shown as toxic (Oliver) or all about her and her feelings (Quentin, Sara, Dinah, Tommy). She hasn't had one meaningful relationship with anyone in 2.5 seasons. She even treats her father like crap when he's always trying to prop her up. Sara was the sister in the wrong but Laurel's personality and attitude made people sympathetic towards Sara instead.  Now from some reason we're supposed to be "aww poor Laurel" when she's keeping the fact that his daughter is dead from the one man that should know about that before anyone else. 

 

I suppose they are saving that for Laurel to use to kill Quentin in 3B to give her yet another "Island/Journey". Apparently she needs about 800 of those to motivate her to do something productive with the skills she doesn't even have. 

Edited December 23, 2014 by Sakura12

[tv echo]

It's one of the reasons I never liked Laurel and Tommy together. Other than her comment to him at the charity ball he organized for her (he told she looked gorgeous and snipped that look who learned big words.) I always felt that Tommy needed a more gentle hand. Laurel would boss and guilt and demand but Tommy truly grew when he stepped away from both Laurel and his father and started running Oliver's club. I'm never a fan of a relationship when one member of it steam rolls another. Sub and dom are fine in the bedroom but Laurel had Tommy under her heel begging for scraps.

Sigh... for the story potential of Tommy - and even for the potential of a relationship between Tommy and Felicity.

[statsgirl]

Laurel's always saving the world. (according to the two people that were brutally killed for her "journey").

ETA, If Quentin says that to her this season. Say your goodbyes to him. That sentence activates the death curse.

Oh, douchebag DJ...........

 

Although after 3x09, I wouldn't mind it if Dinah were next.

 

After 2 1/2 seasons of Arrow, I'm not a fan of Katie Cassidy but the writing has really failed Laurel.

[foreverevolving]

Sigh... for the story potential of Tommy - and even for the potential of a relationship between Tommy and Felicity.

That's why Smoaking Billioniers fanfics exist.. To fill in this empty space.