Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[apinknightmare]

I mean... why would they let go of this (see below) gold mine for an obvious shit show?

 

Unffff. 

 

Generating more heat by just breathing than Oliver and Laurel could if they rubbed their tongues together for twenty minutes. Bless them.

[Guest]

I mean... why would they let go of this (see below) gold mine for an obvious shit show?

 

 

Unffff.

 

From the bitterness thread because I'm not really bitter when I say HOLY CRAP THAT IS ONE OF THE HOTTEST THINGS EVER. How do they make such a simple kiss so hot? 

[wonderwall]

This gif has around 13500 notes on tumblr which is a LOT:

 

 

I wouldn't worry about Oliver and Felicity. I think the writers are going to go with Oliver/Felicity and Laurel as BC. It's a way to appease most of the fans I suppose... Sucks for the people who don't like either though.

[Danny Franks]

Given the way the EPs apparently shoved Sara out of the plane without a parachute, and then said, 'huh? Sara? Who the fuck's that? Laurel is Black Canary. Excuse me, I've just got to kick some dirt into this carelessly dug grave', I'd say that Oliver/Laurel is still very much a possibility for the endgame romance.

 

These guys have shown that they are not interested in deviating from their plans for Laurel, no matter how badly they've worked out so far, and no matter how badly the writers and the actress have botched the things they've tried to do. I imagine Katie Cassidy is relying on that when she talks about how Oliver and Laurel will end up together, and it seems like she has a fair amount of precedent to fall back on.

 

They all know that Oliver and Felicity have much better chemistry, have a much better connection, and is far more accepted as a pairing by fans and media outlets. But then they also knew that Sara made a better vigilante, and was accepted more by fans and the media. Didn't change a damned thing. She's still dead, and it sounds like they're trying to erase her very existence. They're going to try and push Oliver/Laurel again, and if they get the slightest bit of purchase (such as fans saying they like Felicity with 50 Shades), I think they'll dig right in and say, 'okay, we know we're on the right track'.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Given the way the EPs apparently shoved Sara out of the plane without a parachute, and then said, 'huh? Sara? Who the fuck's that? Laurel is Black Canary. Excuse me, I've just got to kick some dirt into this carelessly dug grave', I'd say that Oliver/Laurel is still very much a possibility for the endgame romance.

These guys have shown that they are not interested in deviating from their plans for Laurel, no matter how badly they've worked out so far, and no matter how badly the writers and the actress have botched the things they've tried to do. I imagine Katie Cassidy is relying on that when she talks about how Oliver and Laurel will end up together, and it seems like she has a fair amount of precedent to fall back on.

They all know that Oliver and Felicity have much better chemistry, have a much better connection, and is far more accepted as a pairing by fans and media outlets. But then they also knew that Sara made a better vigilante, and was accepted more by fans and the media. Didn't change a damned thing. She's still dead, and it sounds like they're trying to erase her very existence. They're going to try and push Oliver/Laurel again, and if they get the slightest bit of purchase (such as fans saying they like Felicity with 50 Shades), I think they'll dig right in and say, 'okay, we know we're on the right track'.

Word. Basis of my fear since Ray appeared and Sara died. They are forging a path to O/L or BC/GA. Whether they take the path or not remains to be seen.

They had a perfectly good BC and killed her to make room for Laurel and her attempts at being BC.

They have a perfectly good romantic interest in Felicity. They just wounded Olicity. Olicity might not be dead yet, but internal bleeding isn't always evident right away.

Hey, it could happen. TIIC have shown they are not smart enough to avoid really dumb decisions.

ETA: I'm bitter I attempted to edit this post and I lost it because it had been moved.

I'm bitter about the direction most of Arrow is going. Don't follow the writer's anvils. It is their subtle signs you need to watch for.

Edited October 21, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[wonderwall]

To be honest, I don't get why people keep saying Olicity is dead or will be dead. I honestly don't think it is. They're going through growing pains right now because they still aren't really ready to be with each other. Oliver is still an ass, and Felicity needs to know she has a life outside of the team and Oliver (which she really hasn't in the past two years). In order for them to work together, they need to work on themselves individually, and I think that's what we're seeing now. Individual growth. Oliver will grow with the help of his team and maybe Thea. Felicity will grow with the help of Ray and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

I remember one of the EPs said that Oliver's journey in finding his humanity will be tied with Felicity and what he feels for her. That's not a little thing. That's actually a huge, HUGE thing that's in favor of Oliver/Felicity being endgame. That's just how important and powerful his feelings for Felicity is and that's not going anywhere even if he gets pissed with her from time to time. You don't just brush something off like this in favor of some other couple because it would be inconsistent and sloppy writing and no one would believe it. 

 

From the past two episodes I've seen no reason for Laurel and Oliver to get back together. Did he comfort her in the second episode? Yes. But he didn't in any way open up to her. Even while he was consoling her he was so completely closed off to Laurel you could even see it in his face. That's not love. And with Felicity, even though he didn't touch her, he opened up to her in a way he didn't do with anyone else. And what did Felicity do? She challenged him and fought for Oliver Queen (not the Arrow) and in the end she made him a better person for it. That's what Felicity does. She makes Oliver better from making him stick to his no kill rule to trying to fight for Oliver's humanity... She's been doing this ever since she made her entrance in the 3rd episode of season 1. When has Laurel ever made Oliver a better person? Yes, Laurel occasionally challenges Oliver, but she's never made him a better person. That says a lot about that relationship. 

 

I understand why people are worried about Laurel/Oliver getting back together. That will always be a threat and I have to say sometimes I get random bouts of nervousness as well. Regardless of what KC says, Laurel was never good for Oliver and Oliver was never good for Laurel. Their personalities completely clash whereas Felicity and Oliver, while they may not have much in common, they bring out the best in each other. I can't say I have complete faith in the EPs but I do have faith in the couple and how solid they are even when they aren't together and when they're going through a rough patch.  

Edited October 21, 2014 by wonderwall

[apinknightmare]

Word. Basis of my fear since Ray appeared and Sara died. They are forging a path to O/L or BC/GA. Whether they take the path or not remains to be seen.

They had a perfectly good BC and killed her to make room for Laurel and her attempts at being BC.

They have a perfectly good romantic interest I. Felicity. They just wounded Olicity. Olicity might not be dead yet, but internal bleeding isn't always evident right away.

Hey, it could happen. TIIC have shown they are not smart enough to avoid really dumb decisions.

 

But, I mean...Laurel IS BC in the comics. I think TPTB have shown a willingness to compromise with some areas of canon, and it seems like this is one area where they're not. And even though there has been a large amount of dislike for her character, they aren't entirely wrong in trying to see what happens when Laurel's brought into the main plot, because there does seem to be some excitement for Laurel to become BC from the fanboy contingent, and I still don't think the casual viewer knows enough about Laurel's "destiny" to even realize that's what's happening or care that much at this point. It's not my favorite idea, but as a last-ditch effort to see if it makes her character work? I can see why they'd try.

 

There's more leeway with the O/L relationship canon-wise, since it was always rocky and there are iterations where they're not even together. L/O didn't work as a couple, it was one part of the first season that was pretty much universally panned and is still brought up in articles about the show to this day. It's not out of the realm of possibility that they'll try it again, but Olicity is their publicity bread and butter at this point, and IMO there are other potential problems on this show that are worth the down payment of worry. This? Not so much.

Edited October 21, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

What I find sad and kinda funny, is that if you take away KC's comments no one whould be doubting that Oliver and Felicity were the main romance of the show. Sure, one EP said never say never, but that is the standard response. EVERYONE ELSE is prompting Oliver and Felicity. I'm not just talking big bold statements like SA or the EPs at SDCC, I'm talking Grant Gustin and David Ramsey talking casually about Felicity and Oliver being in love. About David Ramsey talking about how Felicity is to Oliver what Lyla is to Diggle. Even to casual viewers who don't stalk online forums, the narrative presented in The Calm was big flashing lights Oliver and Felicity are endgame (my mother, the casual viewer, couldn't get over the dinner scene and does not believe they could ever go back to Laurel - She also thought Thea should take over as the Black Canary with no prompting from me).

 

I do not believe that KC knows more than SA. I think she is hoping she can talk it into life, but she can't.  Also, you do not set up the most popular romantic pairing like that unless you are planning to follow thru . These are the people that storm twitter and messgeboards posting comments and trying to generate buzz. Its one thing to tease the fandom its another thing entirely to give them what they want and then rip it away - they live in a post-HIMYM world. I'm sure they took notes.

 

As for the introduction of Ray and taking Felicity away from Oliver/Team Arrow, I hate it but it needs to be done. Felicity does need to be fleshed out and she does need another option. I like the depth it could add to Felicity as a character and Oliver/Felicity as a couple.

 

I hate that they killed Sara. I will rage about it forever, but I do think its them holding tight to what they can from their original plan. Its the CW, you can get away with an unpopular character if you put a her in fishnets and punch a few guys - that's a definition of bad ass for a lot of general viewers (sadly). The main romance though? You can't mess with that on the CW. Olicity just over took Klaroline on twitter. That's massive. 

 

Yes anything could happen. Never say Never. But other then KC and our own worst case senarios, there isn't anything to support a Oliver and Laurel romantic reunion. And if that changes? Well, I wouldn't care because I would be out.

[statsgirl]

10Eleven12, your mother is a woman of great good sense.  Does she live anywhere near Vancouver or LA?

 

All these arguments are logical in a storytelling and business way.  I'm still preparing for the worst though.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

What I find sad and kinda funny, is that if you take away KC's comments no one whould be doubting that Oliver and Felicity were the main romance of the show. Sure, one EP said never say never, but that is the standard response. EVERYONE ELSE is prompting Oliver and Felicity. I'm not just talking big bold statements like SA or the EPs at SDCC, I'm talking Grant Gustin and David Ramsey talking casually about Felicity and Oliver being in love. About David Ramsey talking about how Felicity is to Oliver what Lyla is to Diggle. Even to casual viewers who don't stalk online forums, the narrative presented in The Calm was big flashing lights Oliver and Felicity are endgame (my mother, the casual viewer, couldn't get over the dinner scene and does not believe they could ever go back to Laurel - She also thought Thea should take over as the Black Canary with no prompting from me).

 

I do not believe that KC knows more than SA. I think she is hoping she can talk it into life, but she can't.  Also, you do not set up the most popular romantic pairing like that unless you are planning to follow thru . These are the people that storm twitter and messgeboards posting comments and trying to generate buzz. Its one thing to tease the fandom its another thing entirely to give them what they want and then rip it away - they live in a post-HIMYM world. I'm sure they took notes.

 

As for the introduction of Ray and taking Felicity away from Oliver/Team Arrow, I hate it but it needs to be done. Felicity does need to be fleshed out and she does need another option. I like the depth it could add to Felicity as a character and Oliver/Felicity as a couple.

 

I hate that they killed Sara. I will rage about it forever, but I do think its them holding tight to what they can from their original plan. Its the CW, you can get away with an unpopular character if you put a her in fishnets and punch a few guys - that's a definition of bad ass for a lot of general viewers (sadly). The main romance though? You can't mess with that on the CW. Olicity just over took Klaroline on twitter. That's massive. 

 

Yes anything could happen. Never say Never. But other then KC and our own worst case senarios, there isn't anything to support a Oliver and Laurel romantic reunion. And if that changes? Well, I wouldn't care because I would be out.

 

Actually there is one reason. It's been stated many times over the past few weeks as to why Sara had to die. "because comics!"

 

I don't pay much attention to what KC says. Honestly her interviews never line up with what is actually happening on screen. Next she'll tell us Laurel is going to suggest Oliver wear a purple suit. Her fans will latch on and the rest of us will roll our eyes while the internet explodes.

 

Strictly from a storytelling standpoint (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I've only seen the episodes once)

 

At the end of S2 Oliver became a single man. Laurel finds out his secret which drops many barriers between them. Suddenly she knows more about him although it still isn't enough to know him better than anyone else. Yet she was given multiple lines of dialogue to reinforce she knows him better than anyone else. Which these writers have proven is how they convey their message. Hit us with ridiculous dialogue which contradicts what we see on our screen.

Oliver professes his love for Felicity, except he doesn't. Interviews tell us "they've never been able to lie to each other BUT we'll explore that it means in S3." Translation: we know the audience is responding to them since they've been telling us since S1E3. We'll keep this card up our sleeve.

S3 begins and Sara dies a cruel and heartless death. AND OMG! Oliver and Felicity kiss but it is really a good-bye kiss (and not the "familiar 100th kiss" which was speculated around here). Olicity was paraded around and kept the press interested. They lead with and then buried us with Olicity... and a kiss... and date... and a fern. The death of Sara wasn't publicized in any way. Even though most shows use the potential for death as a hook to drag in and keep an audience (Ie Chicago Fire weekly). Why wasn't the death of a character teased? Because from a marketing standpoint it was a shot to the foot. After the S2 death watch for Sara, giving the audience better odds it would be Sara probably would have kept more than a few eyeballs away. 

Ray trots into town as the "charming" billionaire which is the polar opposite to Oliver. Since Oliver is doing his damn best to keep Felicity but not-so-much, let's bring his personality opposite and see how Felicity reacts. Oh look! They have "chemistry." Same was said of Barry and Felicity when they needed to slow the Olicity train down last year. Unless I'm remembering my timeline wrong, Sara and Oliver had an "adult" conversation which more than a few thought put to rest Oliver's penis and a Lance vagina uniting when she stayed in the mansion. Barry showed up and the chemistry wasn't as off the charts as they claimed it to be. Suddenly Oliver and Sara are using the Arrow Cave as their own personal sex den. Completely out of the blue for the characters, actors, and audience. Most are still scratching their heads. 

Sara is dead so there will be no more sister-swapping. Therefore Laurel can safely cozy up to Oliver without fear he'll cheat with her sister. In other words if Oliver is destined to be with a Lance because GA & BC 4eva! By elimination Laurel is left. It cures most of the sister-swapping complaints and fulfills the "because comics!"

Felicity won't wait to die with Oliver. Which could have been motivation enough to get a life outside TA. Oliver doesn't need a romantic rival. I don't buy Oliver needs some competition to realize the depth of his feelings anymore than Felicity isn't all in with Oliver and therefore would consider a relationship with Ray. Felicity has proven she's patient with Oliver. I think her feelings are real enough (despite her lack of returning his ILYs) and also deep enough she won't wilt in the darkness with Oliver but she isn't going to become someone she isn't. Felicity is loyal if nothing else. I don't see it being part of her character to love a man, but date another. 

 

Laurel didn't have to become BC. And she definitely did not have to become BC in Season 3. The character isn't working; revenge and a mask won't fix it. Sara could have remained BC for another season or two. Sara could have trained Laurel and we could have watched them bond so Laurel's grief at Sara's death would have been believable instead of cringe-inducing. However "because comics!" Laurel must be BC and we rushed it to get it done (and try and fix a character there is really no hope for).

 

I don't read the comics. I only know GA&BC 4eva from the internet. If I had watched the show and not visited forums and gotten an education, I might have believed we'd never see Lauriver again. However, I probably would have wondered how the show could kill the BC and why I'm expected to believe Laurel could fill her boots. 

 

The backlash of completely ending Olicity might destroy the show faster, but killing Sara is giving the show a beating. 

 

A few pages ago, I broke down the issue with Laurel and laid the blame equally at the feet of KC, the writers/EPs, and the director. If they don't make Laurel tone it back when 

Ted Grant comes to town.

Then I shift more blame to the writers/EPs and director. Because if KC is allowed to make the acting choice of being Oliver's lady love while SA endures scenes with her, they really have no motivation for success with their show.

Edited October 22, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[quarks]

So apparently Felicity will again be an Executive Assistant, this time to Ray Palmer and that makes me bitter to no end.

Here is the link x

 

 

I'm not bitter! Well, ok, I am, but I am surprisingly optimistic about what this means long term.

 

Back at the beginning of this thread we were chatting about love triangles, and I outlined the various types, including ending up in a threesome which is not where this show is going.  Mostly quoting myself to save time, here's the rival love triangles relevant to this situation:

 

1. The two rivals are fairly equal, allowing the genuine question of which one will she/he choose?  (Archie in comics, Downton Abbey Season Four, Star Wars Episode IV, Dawson's Creek, Stargate:Universe of all shows although wow was that one boring so I probably shouldn't have listed it as one that "works.")

 

This is currently (as of episode 3) the situation with Barry/Iris/Bland Guy and Iris/Barry/Caitlin and even (more arguably) Barry/Caitlin/Cisco over on Flash, proving that these producers/writers can write this scenario. Twice, even. Possibly three times.

 

2. One rival is clearly set up as a Temporary Love Interest/Rival who will be around for only a few episodes/chapters/seasons before leaving. (Almost every sitcom, Downton Abbey Season two, Castle season three, Bones when Hannah showed up; Burn Notice did this more or less successfully in an otherwise not great final season.)  Said Temporary Love Interest/Rival is usually a good person and/or a person who could be very good for the central character, and is almost always introduced as someone with no connections to the rest of the cast.

 

3. As it turns out, one rival is Not a Good Person at All (Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility [twice!], several Bond films.)

 

(The other cases I listed aren't relevant here - Felicity and Oliver are aware of their feelings; they just aren't dating.)

 

Here's the thing: this show hired BR as the temporary love interest - number two; but are trying to claim, in interviews, that he could be far more than that - a genuinely equal love interest for Felicity. In other words, number one.

 

But what we're seeing is number three. Ray's not freaking Han Solo. He's Mr. Wickham. 

 

I've said it before: this show is not subtle. They've had Ray take over Oliver's company using (unnecessarily) unethical methods. They've had Ray admit, in script, that he's stalking her. Now this.

 

Given

Ray's superhero identity, I think he'll probably end up being a good guy.

But this happening? I think it's because they don't want Ray to be a equal love interest with Oliver - they want the audience to continue to cheer on Oliver/Felicity.  I'm taking this as another sign of this.

[Orion]

How do you solve a problem like Laurel Lance? (Yes. You should sing that line out loud a la Sound of Music.)

 

I know it might not seem like it to some, especially rampant comic book 'must protect canon at all costs!' fans, but the trouble is the writers have jumped into Laurel's journey to BC way too soon. Her character is shaky at best and characters need a solid foundation to help drive forward even the weakest of plots. A strong character will win over a weak plot any day.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that they should have spent this season fixing everything about her character that didn't work. She should have earned her place as DA rather than blackmailing her way into the position and then receiving the title by default. She should have had more scenes with Sara - rebuilt their relationship properly so when Sara did die (they were always going to kill her off, no doubt about it sadly) we would feel a greater connection to Laurel's loss. That's one of the problems with 302 is that we never really saw her grieve. She just jumped straight to anger and everything felt orchestrated as moves to make her BC. If we could connect with Laurel on a baser level then everything else would be a lot easier to accept in the long run. 

 

I agree that the writers had to do something with Laurel and probably the only way to ensure she had any sort of relevance was to make her BC. Without BC she is nothing on this show. So I get it. But they've really gone the wrong way about it and everything else is suffering for it and when other characters that I love are being affected I only end up resenting her.

 

This, I agree so much with this.  But I also think it's symptomatic of a much larger problem with Arrow. The pace of this show is fun and adds to the comic book feel of it but so often because of the rushed storyline the relationships that show needs to support the weight of the characters are only written into the subtext. 

 

"Sara" was the first episode that was built on the relationship of someone outside of Team Arrow. So much of what was necessary to emotionally invest in it was structured on relationships we haven't seen. Laurel's grief was unrelatable because the last memorable scenes we had with Sara and Laurel was Laurel throwing a glass at Sara's head and Laurel grinning while Sara went off to Assassin summer camp leaving Laurel with a piece of clothing. I know Sara off handedly mentioned that Laurel and her were living together but that is not how you show characters having a relationship. Throwaway lines are not enough to build character. We needed several scenes of them being sisters, talking about the past and forgiving each other and not a scene where  Laurel says because you have a pretty name you must be a good person, umm what?

 

The same went for Diggle naming his daughter after Sara, if I tilt my head and squint I can see a friendship between Diggle and Sara but not one deep enough where you would name your child after her. That doesn't even go into Layla not having met Sara. That scene would have worked so much better if they had had Diggle say, "Layla and I were considering the name Sara for our daughter, after what happen we now think that's the perfect name."  Instead of being moved by Diggle's tribute I was annoyed that they played the naming of his child for a cheap emotional impact..

 

The downtime, the scenes that take work are things that these writers don't seem interested in constructing which is fine if they only want me to care about Felicity, Diggle and Oliver. Those relationships I saw slowly develop, I got the you're my partner scenes, I got Diggle looking after Felicity, I got Felicity worrying about Digg and Oliver, I'm good with Team Arrow. But the rest of the relationships there is no foundation there and when you put any story weight on them they collapse.

 

This goes for villains too. What was even the point of Vertigo 2.0? Who is buying drugs that make you hallucinate your greatest fear? Why would he even make something that like that? I was really hoping that Vertigo 2.0 would have some connection to Vertigo 1.0 so that it would explain his desire for revenge on the Arrow make sense but no, he was just some guy who used a drug invented by someone else.  Even villains that started out having clear motivations Slade and Merlyn were reduced to cardboard cut out villains.

 

The relationships can't be in the subtext. They have to slow the story down and do the work for each of these characters. If they want me to care about a season long search for a murderer then I have to care about who was killed (sorry Sara fans), if they want me to cheer on Laurel becoming something other than dead then I have to relate to her, and if they want me to be patient while they put stress on the relationships and take away the joy and entertainment that I found in those interactions then they have to give me something else to hold on to.  Eye contact and yearning looks are only going to take things so far. If the writers don't stop going 110 mile an hour and give me character growth, give me reasons to relate to these characters I'm going to get out at the next stop sign because if they don't care about writing character why should I care about watching those characters.

[apinknightmare]

 

The relationships can't be in the subtext. They have to slow the story down and do the work for each of these characters. If they want me to care about a season long search for a murderer then I have to care about who was killed (sorry Sara fans),

 

Hey, I liked Sara and even I don't care who killed her.

[wonderwall]

I've seen a lot of people complaining about Diggle naming his daughter Sara... I just have to say that I really liked that Diggle named his daughter Sara. I don't think he did it because he was particularly close to her, I think he did it because of who Sara was and what she represented. Sara was fearless, strong, beautiful, caring, smart, and good. Why wouldn't Digg want to name his daughter after someone like that? If Sara Diggle is half as amazing Sara Lance, then I think Diggle would be one ridiculously proud father. 

[apinknightmare]

I've seen a lot of people complaining about Diggle naming his daughter Sara... I just have to say that I really liked that Diggle named his daughter Sara. I don't think he did it because he was particularly close to her, I think he did it because of who Sara was and what she represented. Sara was fearless, strong, beautiful, caring, smart, and good. Why wouldn't Digg want to name his daughter after someone like that? If Sara Diggle is half as amazing Sara Lance, then I think Diggle would be one ridiculously proud father. 

 

Plus, the show relies on us (too heavily, IMO) to connect the dots of a group friendship that extends beyond what we see on screen. It's obviously not doing that great of a job, but Sara must've met Lyla at some point, and they must have gotten somewhat close. When Oliver asked Diggle if Lyla would give them access to A.R.G.U.S. systems to search for Sara's killer, Diggle replied that she'd give them access to A.R.G.U.S. to find out who did it. So, Sara was Lyla's friend too. They failed at ever actually showing it, but they are telling us here.

Edited October 22, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Velocity23]

I just wanted a nod to his brother  & hoped she would have been named Andrea.

[Orion]

Hey, I liked Sara and even I don't care who killed her.

 

I liked the idea of Sara more than I liked the execution (not the literal execution I hated that) of her (again, sorry Sara fans). My point was more about how they built the relationships with Sara then about her has a character.  They devoted more time to her kicking butt then her emotionally connecting to others on the show other than Oliver and that's where I think the episode failed. The writers needed those relationships strong so that the emotional impact carried over to the viewers and I think that's where they lost me right from the start. They built this arc on a foundation built on subtext

 

 

I've seen a lot of people complaining about Diggle naming his daughter Sara... I just have to say that I really liked that Diggle named his daughter Sara. I don't think he did it because he was particularly close to her, I think he did it because of who Sara was and what she represented. Sara was fearless, strong, beautiful, caring, smart, and good. Why wouldn't Digg want to name his daughter after someone like that? If Sara Diggle is half as amazing Sara Lance, then I think Diggle would be one ridiculously proud father. 

 

For me, and YMMV, but that scene wasn't played out to honor Sara. It was in the middle of Laurel complaining about how unfair it was that no one will know who Sara was (because of Laurel's choice to bury her in a wooden box in the middle of the night which is still making me insanely angry) it was about appeasing Laurel.  You listen good reason why Diggle might want to give his baby Sara's name but that wasn't how the scene was constructed and still doesn't involve Layla in the narrative choice.  It took story agency, naming his daughter, away from Diggle and Layla, for an emotional beat.

[Guest]

Agreed so much @Orion. But that's one of the problems with this show from the beginning. They do tend to rely on the 'tell don't show' aspect of storytelling (consistently telling us in s1 that Laurel and Oliver had some epic love while showing something else completely) when it really should be the other way around. They can tell us something repeatedly but until we actually see it, we won't believe it. 

 

And that goes for the relationships on the show. If they had shown us scenes with Sara and the other characters - moments of friendship and connection - then her loss would resonate more. As it stands, things like Diggle naming his kid after her just fall flat. Sara had some lovely bonding moments with Sin on the show but they didn't even have Sin on episode 302 which IMO would have improved the episode greatly. I just think of how much more brutal and emotional it would have been if Sin had found Sara's body, or if she had been at the grave. That connection is what was missing. 

[wonderwall]

I mean, Lyla probably liked the name too, maybe it doesn't have that much meaning attached to it for her, but she liked it. 

 

I'm hoping Digg and Lyla will wait to have a son in order to name him after Digg's brother. And you know they're gonna have another one :p That's why I'm not worried. This isn't going to be their only child, if it were and it was specifically stated, yeah, I would've been pissed I suppose. And maybe Sara fit better because of what she represented and what they were all going through. 

 

But I agree, in context, it didn't seem like Digg was honoring Sara. Just saying something to shut Laurel up :p This is me fanwanking. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by wonderwall

[ostentatious]

It's such a common name it could've just been on their short list already, so an easy choice.

[Sakura12]

I'm probably one of the biggest Sara fans on this forum and I don't give a shit who killed her. It was for Laurel so she killed Sara. 

 

This show sucks at showing most relationships and expect us to just go with it without seeing it develop. I think they just like to distract us with shiny action scenes.

 

I'm not watching this show anymore, but I kind of hope Diggle rolls his eyes every time Laurel opens her mouth in the lair. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by Sakura12

[DrSpaceman10]

I saw this on tumblr. http://amancangokillhimself.tumblr.com/post/100725608718/even-more-thoughts-about-arrow-ill-keep-this

 

 

And finally, I know why this broody version of Oliver is pissing me off so much.  He is acting almost exactly like he did during the later half of season 2, when he first got together with Sara.  He’s distant and cold and dismissive of Felicity.  There are a billion and one ways you can justify it by saying he’s distancing himself from Felicity because he can’t let himself feel, or he’s doing it to protect himself and her, but to me it reads as uncaring.

 

This is exactly how I feel. I don't know if it's an acting choice on SA's part or in the script, but I really hate the way Oliver is coming off in his scenes with Felicity.

[NumberCruncher]

It could be worse--at least he's not openly snapping at her or being a condescending ass like he was back in 2x10. Then again, the season is still young.

[Danny Franks]

It could be worse--at least he's not openly snapping at her or being a condescending ass like he was back in 2x10. Then again, the season is still young.

 

That'll happen when he finds out she's working for the guy who took his company away under shady circumstances. And like I said way back in the summer when this storyline was first announced, he should be upset about that. And this just feeds into the 'will they, won't they' issues, which I've said before result in me disliking the characters involved. Oliver is an ass, but Felicity went off in a huff and took a job with the guy who took QC away, thus continuing the process of them 'punishing' one another. Next up, it'll probably be Oliver saying mean stuff about her new boss/crush. Both of them would end up looking like complete dicks to me. Good going, show.

[Ceylon5]

That'll happen when he finds out she's working for the guy who took his company away under shady circumstances. And like I said way back in the summer when this storyline was first announced, he should be upset about that. And this just feeds into the 'will they, won't they' issues, which I've said before result in me disliking the characters involved. Oliver is an ass, but Felicity went off in a huff and took a job with the guy who took QC away, thus continuing the process of them 'punishing' one another. Next up, it'll probably be Oliver saying mean stuff about her new boss/crush. Both of them would end up looking like complete dicks to me. Good going, show.

 

No-one took away Oliver's company.  The fool signed it away on the corner of a piece of paper, and has done absolutely nothing to prove that he was a) worthy of running it in the first place (he was the worst CEO ever), or b) that he has the vision or ability to do better in the future.  Someone more competent (which, frankly, would be just about anybody) was given the job instead.  That's business.  If I'd been on the board, I would have been delighted to be given some option other than Oliver, so Ray really didn't need to go to the lengths he did to get the job.  That was just a plot contrivance to have the Buy More scene with him and Felicity.  Bottom line, Oliver has no justification whatsoever to have an issue with Felicity getting back a job at the company she's worked at for years and only lost in the first place because of moronic Oliver a) forcing her to be his EA, and b) then losing her that job by being a crap CEO.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Ceylon5

[Danny Franks]

No-one took away Oliver's company.  The fool signed it away on the corner of a piece of paper, and has done absolutely nothing to prove that he was a) worthy of running it in the first place (he was the worst CEO ever), or b) that he has the vision or ability to do better in the future.  Someone more competent (which, frankly, would be just about anybody) was given the job instead.  That's business.  If I'd been on the board, I would have been delighted to be given some option other than Oliver, so Ray really didn't need to go to the lengths he did to get the job.  That was just a plot contrivance to have the Buy More scene with him and Felicity.  Bottom line, Oliver has no justification whatsoever to have an issue with Felicity getting back a job at the company she's worked at for years and only lost in the first place because of moronic Oliver a) forcing her to be his EA, and b) then losing her that job by being a crap CEO.

 

Oliver signed the company away under the duress of his sister being kidnapped by a psychopath, as I recall it. But yeah, he was a big stupid, Felicity-ignoring meanie for trusting Isabel, a woman who had seemed trustworthy to him. As I understand it, 50 Shades hacked into company records to obtain information he used to present his argument to the board, after Oliver had made his play to regain control.

 

Still, this is the next stage of 'will they, won't they', in my experience. People picking sides and recriminations flying back and forth about who did what, when and to who. Glad I've quit the show.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Danny Franks

[Ceylon5]

Actually Oliver was okay with Ray winning the bid - it played well into his whole "I can't be Oliver Queen because I'm the Arrow"  blah, blah whatever.  So it would be a little petty to now begrudge Felicity a decent job.  I sort of got the impression she was marking time at Buy More till Oliver got QC back and she could go back and work there, so when he was okay with not getting it back, I don't see how he could reasonably expect a friend of his to stay at a crap job forever out of some weird misguided loyalty to him (the version of him that he's now denying the existence of, since Oliver Queen no longer exists, only the Arrow).  Her day-job isn't really anything to do with him.  Even a boyfriend would be walking on thin ice to try to have too much say in their girlfriend's career, but someone who isn't a boyfriend... I really don't get why his opinion is even under discussion.  

 

I don't think Ray has anything against Oliver personally - he wanted QC (for reasons as yet unclear) and he'll no doubt run it a lot better than Oliver ever could.  And on the plus side - with the QC stock going up, won't Oliver's iffy wealth increase?  He presumably still owns his shares, even if they've been magically diluted or whatever their reasoning was.

[apinknightmare]

Oliver signed the company away under the duress of his sister being kidnapped by a psychopath, as I recall it. But yeah, he was a big stupid, Felicity-ignoring meanie for trusting Isabel, a woman who had seemed trustworthy to him.

Well, uh...yeah. Because the first time Oliver met Isabel, she was what? Trying to take his company from him! He was stupid for trusting her.

Edited October 23, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Danny Franks]

Well, uh...yeah. Because the first time Oliver met Isabel, she was what? Trying to take his company from him! He was stupid for trusting her.

 

Then she agreed to work with him, convinced him she wanted the best for the company, supported him in his charitable efforts, they made something of a personal connection (whether she was BSing him in Russia or not, they did share a moment that Oliver believed was one of recognition and empathy) and then she disappeared for about ten episodes. What did she do that would cause him to distrust her? She didn't like Felicity? That's not a crime.

[quarks]

And on the plus side - with the QC stock going up, won't Oliver's iffy wealth increase?  He presumably still owns his shares, even if they've been magically diluted or whatever their reasoning was.

 

 

I think my answer belongs in the Hopes and Fears thread, since it's not a relationship answer, so going there.

[apinknightmare]

Then she agreed to work with him, convinced him she wanted the best for the company, supported him in his charitable efforts, they made something of a personal connection (whether she was BSing him in Russia or not, they did share a moment that Oliver believed was one of recognition and empathy) and then she disappeared for about ten episodes. What did she do that would cause him to distrust her? She didn't like Felicity? That's not a crime.

Did I write that not liking Felicity was a crime?

IMO he was stupid to trust her enough to sign the company over to her, especially since her initial motive was to take that company away and people who want to take your things usually manipulate you into trusting them. Which is what she did, and he played right into it.

So, no one took anything from him that he didn't willingly give away. And it's not like he ever really gave a shit about QC - he never really put that much effort into being CEO anyway.

[Password]

So, no one took anything from him that he didn't willingly give away. And it's not like he ever really gave a shit about QC - he never really put that much effort into being CEO anyway.

 

It really makes me wonder what exactly Oliver Queen wants out of life. I think we got that he wants the girl and babies and family, but life aspirations is something Oliver really has to sit down and work out for himself. He wants QC, but for what reason? Because it's his family business or because he wants to lead it? He knows nothing about business at all, and he's so consumed in his vigilante life that everything falls away. For all we know, the man wants to open a Dojo and train people. I hope this season handles at least some of that. At the end of the day, what is he balancing? His nightly activities with his daily activities, which include what exactly? Diggle is balancing home life, vigilante life and A.R.G.U.S. life so Oliver has a framework, but he needs to fill in the details.

 

Oliver slept with Isabel and thought he could trust her after that. It was a massive dodo moment and he'd do well to remember that.

[Ceylon5]

I decided to expand on my earlier post where I wrote out all of Laurel's and Felicity's interactions to the end of S2.  Up to that point, Laurel had only said: “I’m sorry, who are you?” and “Will you give us a moment?” to Felicity.  Let's see how things have progressed in S3:

 

S3E02: 

When they find Laurel in the Lair with Sara's body, the only person she talks to is Oliver.  She ignores Felicity & Roy, so no real interaction there.

 

Later, Laurel & Felicity are in the Lair, Oliver is out in the field.

Felicity: Oliver, I'm opening up a file now.

Laurel (about the picture on Felicity's computer): Is that him?  [No, Laurel, it's Felicity's screensaver. /sarcasm]

Felicity & Oliver chat.

Laurel: Put him on speaker. (Felicity does, even though she's really busy doing about 10 other things.)

Arrow conversation and action.

Oliver: I've found Le Croix.

Laurel:  I need to see what's happening.

Felicity:  Okay, pulling up the street camera feed.

They don't actually converse with each other for the rest of the scene.  Laurel yells at Oliver to get up and Felicity asks him anxiously if he's okay, but they don't talk to each other.

 

Later, Laurel leaves a message on Felicity's phone: Felicity, I really need to talk to you so please can you call me back as soon as you get this.

When Felicity calls back Laurel answers her phone with: I've got something.  Meet me at Verdant.  [Jeez, what does she have against saying hello?!]

 

Back in the Lair with the whole team.

Laurel:  AmerTek Industries.  It's an oil company based in Starling City.

Felicity: [not transcribing the techno-babble, but it included algorithms and things]

Laurel:  How long does that take?

Felicity (immediately): That long.

Then they all discuss the case...

 

At Sara's grave, Felicity tosses some dirt on the coffin.

Felicity: It's a Jewish custom.  (To Laurel)  I know she wasn't, but it feels right.  (Laurel doesn't respond and the only person to follow Felicity's lead is Oliver.  [Not sure what the implication of that was meant to be?  They make a lot of weird choices on this show.])

 

S3E03: Laurel calls Felicity while Felicity is at work.

Felicity (somewhat frazzled): Hello?

Laurel: Felicity, I need a favour.

Felicity (sounding surprised): Are we favour-friends now?  Are we friends?

Laurel (in a pissy tone):  What?!

Felicity:  Never mind.  Sorry. (Her other phone rings.)  Oh dear God.  One second. (She takes Diggle's call, then returns to Laurel.)  I'm having a bit of a day.

Laurel:  I need you to help me find someone by googling his phone or something.

Felicity: Pinging his GPS.  (Looks at her boss.)  Can I call you back?

Felicity presumably later does Laurel the favour, though we are spared seeing it happen. [ETA: What are the chances Laurel thanked her?]

 

So, yeah, not really seeing the flowering of BFFs here.  I know Laurel is short with a lot of people, not just Felicity (and Oliver also has a habit of bossing her about rudely, which I do not enjoy either), but jeez, show.  If you're going out of your way to make Laurel look bad, you're certainly succeeding admirably (though obviously that extends far beyond her interactions with Felicity).  Still, I give them an A+ for consistency, which I'm actually glad about.  If they'd tried to suddenly make them all buddy-buddy after last season, I, for one, would not have bought it.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Ceylon5

[KirkB]

Laurel treats everyone like that though. It's one of her defining traits and one of the few consistencies in her character.

[KenyaJ]

So, yeah, not really seeing the flowering of BFFs here.  I know Laurel is short with a lot of people, not just Felicity (and Oliver also has a habit of bossing her about rudely, which I do not enjoy either), but jeez, show.  If you're going out of your way to make Laurel look bad, you're certainly succeeding admirably (though obviously that extends far beyond her interactions with Felicity).  Still, I give them an A+ for consistency, which I'm actually glad about.  If they'd tried to suddenly make them all buddy-buddy after last season, I, for one, would not have bought it.

 

Yeah, I was glad the show actually addressed the fact that Laurel and Felicity aren't friends and have never even had friendly interactions. At least someone is paying attention.

 

As for the comparisons in the episode thread of Oliver and Laurel demanding things of Felicity, the difference is that Oliver's occasional moments of being rude to her are balanced out by all the times he's supported her, thanked her, told her her couldn't do what he does without her, told him she can confide in him, etc. Romance aside, he cares deeply about her and values her as a person, and we all know that. So does Felicity. By contrast, other than the time she was drunk, the only times Laurel has even deigned to acknowledge Felicity's presence were in the past two episodes when she needed/wanted something. Felicity was well within her rights to call her out on it.

 

Who knows, maybe that moment will be the starting point for developing a friendship between them. It's not something I need or really care to see, but I find it encouraging that the show acknowledged they aren't insta-friends just because Laurel knows Oliver's secret.

[Carrie Ann]

As for the comparisons in the episode thread of Oliver and Laurel demanding things of Felicity, the difference is that Oliver's occasional moments of being rude to her are balanced out by all the times he's supported her, thanked her, told her her couldn't do what he does without her, told him she can confide in him, etc. Romance aside, he cares deeply about her and values her as a person, and we all know that. So does Felicity. By contrast, other than the time she was drunk, the only times Laurel has even deigned to acknowledge Felicity's presence were in the past two episodes when she needed/wanted something. Felicity was well within her rights to call her out on it.

 

Before Oliver and Felicity were friends and partners, when she didn't know he was the Arrow yet, he came to her and kindly asked for favors, understood he was putting her out some, even offering that bottle of wine as a thank-you that one time. That's how people treat others they don't know very well when they need a favor. Even once she was in on the secret--when the figurative mask had dropped and he wasn't pretending to be Charming Oliver anymore--he continued to be kind and polite to her, when he wasn't under extreme stress. And when he was rude, he usually recognized it and apologized or reached out in some way after the fact.

 

They have built a relationship, and as you say, they have a mutual understanding of their respect for each other, so if Oliver is short when he needs something, Felicity can probably figure out why and if she doesn't like the reason, she usually calls him on it (Barry stuff, last season) or dishes it back to him. Laurel and Felicity don't have that background to their relationship, hence Felicity questioning her demand for a favor. I too appreciate that the show didn't make them magically become friends during the hiatus, because unlike Felicity and Roy, there are some roadblocks to a friendship between L & F that I don't want just swept under the rug.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[Password]

My favourite part of that interaction was how surprised Laurel was after Felicity asked her if they're friends. Hahahaha "What? Of course we're friends because I know about Oliver's night time activities."

[Chaser]

I find it funny that some people are pointing out that Laurel is doing the same thing Oliver was doing to Felicity in S1. I'm not going to touch on the differences in tone and manner, because I think so many have covered it so eloquently already. What I will say is people are forgetting Oliver was Felicity's boss then. Technically, he didn't even need to ask politely or come up with a range of cover stories.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I really didn't see Felicity's "Are we favor friends? Are we friends" as bitchy or rude or dismissive or argumentative or combative. If anything, there was a bit of a surprise and realization in her tone. Like she didn't consider them friends (because why would she, it seems like her interaction with Laurel has been pretty limited) and was surprised that Laurel apparently seems to think so. To me, the tone and delivery was key. Even considering the stress of juggling the requests in front of a boss who wasn't interested in leaving her alone, that scene was played to be lighthearted and funny and I think Felicity's tone with Laurel fit that. In fact, I think EBR was phenomenal in that scene and I would really love to see her in a rom-com.

Edited October 23, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva

[Ceylon5]

I find it funny that some people are pointing out that Laurel is doing the same thing Oliver was doing to Felicity in S1. I'm not going to touch on the differences in tone and manner, because I think so many have covered it so eloquently already. What I will say is people are forgetting Oliver was Felicity's boss then. Technically, he didn't even need to ask politely or come up with a range of cover stories.

 

I don't have a problem with the early S1 Oliver/Felicity interactions, but I don't agree that he was her boss, any more than he's her boss now.  Oliver wasn't even working at QC in S1.  Sure, his family's name was on the building and he owned a lot of stock, but that doesn't actually make him her boss.  At that point, Walter was her boss, with her IT supervisor as her immediate superior.  Oliver was the boss's stepson.  Not the same thing at all.

 

But Oliver is often snippy when he asks for information from Felicity, and while she generally doesn't seem to mind, I do.  I know he's supposed to be all focussed and in Arrow mode, but it's not necessary to be rude.  There's no need to stomp into the room and say "Where are we on...?" in a demanding way ("we", Oliver, really?), instead of just saying, "How are you going with...?".  With him it's also the tone and the attitude, and while he sometimes knows he's over the line (or she tells him he is) and he apologises, there have still been way too many unnecessarily demanding questions from Oliver and not nearly enough "thank you's" for my taste.  She doesn't work for him.  She has chosen to work with him, and should be treated accordingly.  Neither Diggle nor Felicity (nor Roy, for that matter), stomps about demanding things, and it's not attractive when Oliver does it.  It's possibly my least favourite thing about him and I hope he lightens up a bit this season and learns to chill, take a moment, and be nice to the people around him (who are all there voluntarily), rather than taking out his issues on them.

[apinknightmare]

I don't have a problem with the early S1 Oliver/Felicity interactions, but I don't agree that he was her boss, any more than he's her boss now. Oliver wasn't even working at QC in S1. Sure, his family's name was on the building and he owned a lot of stock, but that doesn't actually make him her boss. At that point, Walter was her boss, with her IT supervisor as her immediate superior. Oliver was the boss's stepson. Not the same thing at all.

But he was in a position of authority over her by virtue of his name being on the building. She wasn't in a position to tell him no, boss or not.

[Chaser]

The Queen family owned the company so techically he was her boss. The relationship has grown far beyond that now, but from Felicity's perspective one of the owners walked in and asked her to do something. I would treat it like an assignment from a higher-up.

[Password]

But he was in a position of authority over her by virtue of his name being on the building. She wasn't in a position to tell him no, boss or not.

I agree. Even the way she addressed him as "of course, you're Mr Queen" showed a healthy awareness of where she ranked in the scheme of things.

[NumberCruncher]

From the Laurel thread:

I also couldn't figure out why they did such a hard first meet between them. Maybe they would have chemistry if they had softened her approach, coming in swinging like that didn't do her any favors. Can blame her for it all though, Ted didn't come off great to me either.

Oh I completely get why the hard first meet--it's a standard "At first they hated each other but..." kind of relationship. I think the EPs/writers thought that the crackling dialogue would translate into crackling chemistry. Only it didn't. It came off heavy-handed. But he's sweaty and shirtless! She's indignant! These two crazy kids will get together! Come on.

[Starfish35]

From Bitterness thread -

I strongly suspect that Laurel was included as a character on Arrow because they intended to spin her off onto her own show. It's the only way not bothering to chem-test your two leads makes any sense, and because they're so spinoff-happy, it just makes sense to me.

I don't agree. Actually I tend to think exactly the opposite, that one of the biggest problems with Laurel is that she was thrown in as the love interest without sufficient thought given to giving her a logical basis for becoming BC. I'm not a comic book reader, but from what I've read about AK's run on the Green Arrow/Black Canary comics, my impression is that one of the complaints about that was that Black Canary was often just reduced to being Green Arrow's love interest and a damsel in distress for the Arrow to rescue, rather than being the kickass superheroine she was already established as. To me, that establishes a pattern of at least AK (and perhaps the other writers) thinking of Dinah Laurel Lance less as the Black Canary and more as the Green Arrow's girlfriend. And here, in the TV series, when they introduce her, they strip away almost everything except the name that would tie her to Black Canary. Her only real relevance to the story is as Oliver's wronged love. And even if she eventually does become BC, they've started her out at a major disadvantage. I think AK's remarks comparing Oliver and Laurel to Lois and Clark are telling, because I think that's how they see Dinah Laurel Lance, or did. Not as a superheroine in her right, but as the Lois to Oliver's Clark, the Mary Jane to Oliver's Peter Parker. And I think it's a major part of why she's been written so badly from the beginning.

Not sure if this makes sense - trying to type it out quickly on my phone. :(

Edited October 23, 2014 by Starfish35

[ostentatious]

My favourite part of that interaction was how surprised Laurel was after Felicity asked her if they're friends. Hahahaha "What? Of course we're friends because I know about Oliver's night time activities."

I thought it was more like, "What does that have to do with you following my instructions?"

 

And I think it's spot on, the observation that "Laurel Lance" does not have the makings of a proto-Black Canary, and was conceived entirely wrong for the role. "Laurel Lance the love interest" as conceived looks an awful lot like "Felicity Smoak" as portrayed by EBR. That's the personality, that's the tone they wanted. They wanted EBR's Felicity, if she was Oliver's college girlfriend he'd cheated on and treated horribly, and now it's five years later. They wanted you to see enormous warmth and positivity underneath the bitterness. Imagine EBR playing that intention. She wouldn't be able to hide her warmth, no matter how hard she tried. THAT is what Oliver would've held onto for all those years. This is why AU fanfic that puts Felicity into the Laurel role works so well. Suddenly, the personalities are right.

 

But Katie Cassidy cannot play Laurel Lance the love interest, and Emily Bett-Rickards cannot play the Black Canary, and *Laurel Lance the love interest* cannot turn into the Black Canary. Oddly enough, if it weren't for the baggage she now has and the fact that she'll now always be compared unfavorably to Sara, Katie Cassidy could've come a LOT closer to the Dinah Laurel Lance of comics and the Black Canary in tone than she ever came to Laurel Lance, if she'd had the right setup from the start.

 

Just an enormous disconnect all around. And that? That's on the producers. They did this.

Edited October 23, 2014 by ostentatious

[AustenChick]

On the Laurel/Felicity thing -- yeah, their exchanges irritate me because I love Felicity more than Laurel (I'm trying to like her).

 

But also, this show hasn't really shown a great female friendship. Granted, this is Arrow and about Oliver Queen and the people in his orbit, but that's why Sara and Felicity's friendship was so nice and unexpected. Even if we didn't get a huge amount of scenes with them together, in the season 2 ep, Time of Death, we see them bond when Felicity saves Sara. 

 

With Felicity/Laurel exchanges, I wouldn't mind some actual connection or conversation in there.

[patchwork]

I think I'd like to read fic that puts Felicity in the Laurel role does anyone have recs?

 

The idea of a Laurel/Felicity friendship doesn't work for me, their personalities are too different with no common ground aside from Oliver. Arrow business brings Roy, Diggle and Felicity together but they're shown to be allies who have grown to care about each other as friends without Oliver being a part of it. I fear that the show might use EBR's likeability to get the audience to warm up to Laurel/KC.   

 

A Thea/Felicity friendship on the other hand is something I am rooting for. 

[Carrie Ann]

I don't agree. Actually I tend to think exactly the opposite, that one of the biggest problems with Laurel is that she was thrown in as the love interest without sufficient thought given to giving her a logical basis for becoming BC.

I completely agree with that. But for whatever reason, I still think they had a spinoff in mind when they created the character. Part of the reason she may have been so sketchily conceived is that they had an idea toward saving her origin story/character journey for her own show (or a shared BoP show). We'll probably never know, because I don't think the EPs would discuss something like that unless it worked out. Anyway, regardless of their intent for her, they've basically screwed up at every turn in her development, and in every one of her relationships. So now, her grief w/r/t Sara rings hollow, because she was basically awful to her for most of last season. That in turn makes her path to vigilantism ring hollow because I just don't believe it. And on and on we go.

[A Cunning Stunt]

I saw this gif and it broke my heart all over again. He had actual hope, dammit. 

 

  

You know what takes the cake though? This moment:

 

 

He looks so utterly heartbroken. He wants what Digg and Lyla have, he wants a family and a future and there's no doubt in my mind he's looking at Felicity wanting that future with her. But he pulls himself back because he believes he can't have that. It's just such a tragic moment.

I can honestly say Stephen kicked me square in the feels here - the vulnerability & hope in the 1st, & the sheer heartache in the 2nd. From the outset I have enjoyed the subtleties he injects into scenes - conveying so much with an expression, which seems to largely go unnoticed critically in favour of bigger set pieces & stunts. I do love his physicality/involvement in the action, but it's this stuff...the character relationships (whether or not they are romantic) that provide the much needed grounding & give me something to root for.

The other scene I loved was the Oliver/Digg hug - such a simple action & I didn't realise how just how much I was wanting to see that until it happened. I'm missing Felicity/Digg interaction right now though - I adore their dynamic & the almost parental way he is with her, but without any condescension.

This is pure speculation and an overactive imagination on my part, but I'm pretty confident Felicity and Oliver would look damn good naked.

That thought may or may not have crossed my mind when they landed together in 2x01 due to that land mine situation.

From the conversation in the bitterness thread about the threat of Lauriver: 

 

I mean... why would they let go of this (see below) gold mine for an obvious shit show?

 

 

Unffff.

I look at this GIF & wonder how the hell they wouldn't go with the gold they accidentally struck if they're intent on Oliver having meaningful romantic love in his life that will also encourage him to make peace with both sides of himself & not be lost in darkness, but then the following is exactly where this season has left me at so far:

Given the way the EPs apparently shoved Sara out of the plane without a parachute, and then said, 'huh? Sara? Who the fuck's that? Laurel is Black Canary. Excuse me, I've just got to kick some dirt into this carelessly dug grave', I'd say that Oliver/Laurel is still very much a possibility for the endgame romance.

 

These guys have shown that they are not interested in deviating from their plans for Laurel, no matter how badly they've worked out so far, and no matter how badly the writers and the actress have botched the things they've tried to do. I imagine Katie Cassidy is relying on that when she talks about how Oliver and Laurel will end up together, and it seems like she has a fair amount of precedent to fall back on.

 

They all know that Oliver and Felicity have much better chemistry, have a much better connection, and is far more accepted as a pairing by fans and media outlets. But then they also knew that Sara made a better vigilante, and was accepted more by fans and the media. Didn't change a damned thing. She's still dead, and it sounds like they're trying to erase her very existence. They're going to try and push Oliver/Laurel again, and if they get the slightest bit of purchase (such as fans saying they like Felicity with 50 Shades), I think they'll dig right in and say, 'okay, we know we're on the right track'.

Having Felicity do things like plan to visit Barry is also a subtle (or not so much) way to create a possible opportunity for Laurel to work closely with Oliver but without the spectre of much better option immediately present, & see how viewers respond.

Somehow it's as though TPTB believe it's the lack of tights, mask, & not knowing Oliver's identity as Arrow that was the problem with this relationship, so, in their minds they are fixing that by fast tracking Laurel on a vigilante path in eps 3.1-3.3 (& the remainder of the season?), having her in the know & shoehorning her into the team thus providing a more even playing field for them to rebuild the L/O relationship on for the longer term.

Even with that soft reboot it still doesn't fix the complete void of chemistry between these two. It's so lacking that when I watched the Pilot I had to check Thea was meant to be a sibling given she had more going with Oliver than his supposed lady love, & I'm not even going to get into the sister swapping. The thing is I now don't put it past the Writers to completely ignore all of their past - I've lost whatever faith I had in them since the premiere aired, but I'd be very happy to be proven wrong on this.

I want to add something else but I think I have to take that to the spoiler thread, assuming I've got the rules correctly.