Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wingster55]

I think after knowing what his father did/was...he wouldn't want to be him.

If he was brought back to life after apologizing...

[Starfish35]

I think it was a directing choice to (try to) support the idea that Laurel will always be more important to Oliver than anyone else. I don't believe there was any conscious choice to try to make the audience react badly to her or think badly of her for her actions, or to deliberately give the impression that she thinks more highly of herself than anyone else. And I can't think of any possible reason why they would try to undermine their "leading lady" in the eyes of the audience like that. Why would they, if they're still keeping her?

What is that quote? Something about "never ascribe to malice what you can attribute to stupidity"? Lol.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

It's funny how it's supposed to be Laurel who brought Oliver out of his darkest hour, yet people only saw how unearned, forced, and untrue what Laurel said to Oliver. Even the casual viewers, I saw, didn't even believe it. Even the articles believed that it wasn't Laurel bringing Oliver out of his darkest hour, no, it was the information about Blood that brought him out of it and made him finally react. 

 

So yeah, any hopes of Lauriver died right there when the audience couldn't even believe it was Laurel herself who brought Oliver out of his rut. 

[catrox14]

 

I don't believe there was any conscious choice to try to make the audience react badly to her or think badly of her for her actions, or to deliberately give the impression that she thinks more highly of herself than anyone else. And I can't think of any possible reason why they would try to deliberately undermine their "leading lady" in the eyes of the audience. Why would they, if they're still keeping her?

 

I don't think it was intended to get a bad reaction though. I really do think that they thought it would be a good thing that Laurel is rushing to help Oliver and espouse that she knows Oliver better than anyone else. And to show that she had learned her lessons blah blah blah. I think it was supposed to be well received and to have us look at Laurel and think YAY LAUREL! But that requires an actor with skills that IMO KC doesn't have to pull off that kind of nuance.

[Starfish35]

I don't think it was intended to get a bad reaction though. I really do think that they thought it would be a good thing that Laurel is rushing to help Oliver and espouse that she knows Oliver better than anyone else. And to show that she had learned her lessons blah blah blah. I think it was supposed to be well received and to have us look at Laurel and think YAY LAUREL! But that requires an actor with skills that IMO KC doesn't have to pull off that kind of nuance.

I agree with that, completely. But earlier you said "we were meant to give that a sideeye" and that's what I didn't agree with. I don't think we were supposed to think anything wrong with the scene.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Starfish35

[catrox14]

 

I agree with that, completely. But earlier you said "we were meant to give that a sideeyee. I think we were meant to side-eye Laurel v Team Arrow

 

Sorry, I'm not articulating my viewpoint well. Maybe side-eye is the wrong word there. I think both things were intentional. I think there was supposed to be tension between Laurel and Team Arrow just because here she is crashing the cave. I think they wanted us to wonder what her deal was but then once she starts talking to Oliver we were supposed to see that as "LOOK LAUREL REALLY IS MORE IMPORTANT".  But none of it worked because KC just can't bring the nuance required for that. 

[Starfish35]

Ok yeah, I think maybe I see what you're getting at now. That we were supposed to side with Laurel? In that case I agree - I do think it was supposed to show us how amazing Laurel is and what a deep connection she has with Oliver. Obviously to most of us, at least on this board, that's not how it came across. But I agree that's what they were going for.

(Also, I think maybe you've included part of your reply in the quote? Was that meant to be down below?)

Edited September 13, 2014 by Starfish35

[TanyaKay]

Felicity was such a delightful cupcake in this scene.

[wonderwall]

I quite like this explanation of Oliver and Felicity's 'moments' as opposed to Oliver and Laurel's.

 

X

[statsgirl]

From earlier: 

Field work? Infiltrated places Diggle and Felicity couldn't have gone not being 1%ers?

Or could have been Oliver's go to guy for getting away from Arrow life (which is something I think he needs..but they killed him and Moira off)

 

I actually think Tommy could've taken Felicity's role as the person who Oliver could open up to...

 

Damn Laurel. I say that because after Laurel slept with Oliver I don't think Tommy could've ever been as close to Oliver as he was before if he did make it out alive. :/ 

I agree, but more than that, I don't think Tommy and Laurel could ever have had a trusting relationship again.

 

I don't think Oliver has willingly opened up to anyone yet except possibly Sara.  Diggle forced some things out of him because Diggle has been there himself, in a war, and he knows what Oliver is going through.  I don't think Oliver has really opened up to Felicity at all, the closest she's got is the anguished cry in the foundry "it was five years where nothing good happened" and her remark about Fantasy Island because of the number of women there shows how little he has told her about what happened there because her world is very different than Lian Yu was. For the same reason, plus Tommy dating Laurel, I don't think he could have opened up to Tommy either. Neither Felicity nor Tommy would be able to understand at all.  Oliver may have been afraid of them treating him like a freak if he told anything about what it was like.

 

Whenever I picture Tommy in The Foundry: I see him sitting on Felicity's desk and serving as the peanut gallery. He doesn't actually go on missions though. He is just a friend in on the secret. I like that image. 

 

Bonus: He flicks Felicity's ponytail and makes her blush - not in a shipping kinda way, just in a general flirty kinda way.

That's how I see Tommy alive too, a friend to all on the team but not directly involved in the missions except maybe very occasionally as a distraction.  Like Oliver, he's too well known to go undercover as Diggle and Felicity have done and he doesn't have any special skills like fighting or tech or tactics.

 

I feel like I had to wipe away the entire season 1 to be able to really understand it. I thought Oliver gazing fondly at Laurel's picture and wanting to fix things included sleeping with Sara. The retcon they did on Oliver and Sara's relationship was really jarring (excellent word). I just thought both of them knew better. 

I think 1st Year Island Oliver really did believe he wanted Laurel.  She was like a talisman to him, the vision of a better life and he wanted to make up to her everything he had done wrong.  2nd Year Island Oliver was different,  He was better able to survive and he had good friends in Slade and Shado (also a sexual relationship) so he didn't need to hold on the Laurel's picture like a lifeline. Also having Sara turn up changed how he thought about her -- she was no longer someone who had died because of his thoughtlessness, she was someone who had been wounded and had suffered like he had, someone who understand all he had gone through better than anyone in Starling City.  Sara dead was a wrong he had done and needed to pay for; Sara alive was a comrade he could connect with. 

[Password]

I have no problem with Oliver moving on from Laurel being his talismen of happiness on the island during the first year. What I'm saying is, the hookup was callous and completely scrapped everything we learned in season 1 about the way Oliver felt sorry. The history between the 3 of them provided me with a sense that both Oliver and Sara felt really terrible for their past, but it was undone in a matter of seconds. I like the descriptions some have made for Oliver and Sara's relationship, but I don't feel that's what came across because there was very little conversation between the two to provide me with that firm answer.

It seemed an undercooked relationship that just made them look bad.

[TanyaKay]

every relationship that Oliver has had in this show has been half cooked and most often one would wonder why are we even going there. I mean it is not just Sara, it is everyone, he had one dinner with Helena, just ONE, and he decided to save her and reveal his secret identity to her? He had one botched and one impromptu date cut short by Diggle's intervention with McKenna and he was willing to move to Coast City with her when we knew that he is the Vigilante of Starling and will never leave the city? I mean what was that? With Laurel in the past, we were only shown that he was insincere and a serial cheater and in the present, he told his friend to go for his girl and half an hour later he showed up and she climbed him like a tree and one was left wondering where did that come from.

Barring Felicity, who has been around for a couple of years, all these other relationships were undercooked and at times jumped at us from out of nowhere. The only other exception was perhaps his relationship with Shado, that took time and they actually built a camaraderie before they became intimate.

[Password]

every relationship that Oliver has had in this show has been half cooked and most often one would wonder why are we even going there.

I agree. That's probably why I like he and Felicity's relationship because it's not one night of bonding and then boom.

[wonderwall]

Reasons why I can't believe that Laurel and Sara have a good sisterly bond or whatever:

 

• Sara went on the boat with Oliver fully knowing what it would do to Laurel
• Laurel ratting Sara out so she couldn't be with Oliver or pursue him
• Sara bringing Oliver over to the disastrous family dinner regardless of Laurel's fragile state
• Laurel throwing glass at Sara (you yell if your'e angry at your sister, you don't intend to physically harm okay)
• Laurel immediately goes to Oliver (not Sara) to comfort him after she finds out that He and Sara are vigilantes which probably goes to show that she cares more about Oliver than she does Sara
• We never saw or heard Laurel try to comfort Sara and ask her what happened to her in those five years. It's like she didn't care at all. 
• Laurel didn't bat an eyelash when Sara left town in episode 22. She wasn't even worried about why she left in such a hurry. 
• When Sara is leaving with Nyssa, Laurel has this shit eating grin on her face. Come on, Laurel, your sister is leaving with a bunch of assassins! THIS IS NOT A HAPPY MOMENT. 

 

I'm sure there are more. But from what I've seen, these two don't seem that close or have a good bond. They've done so many crappy things to each other that I can't believe a sense of sisterly affection they may have towards each other. It feels as though both of them care more about Oliver than they do each other which is terrible considering Oliver doesn't deserve that sort of attention from the both of them... Smh, this relationship is terrible. 

 

Why is it that almost all of Laurel's relationships are terrible? She even screwed the pooch with hers and Tommy, which was probably the most normal relationship she could have. At least she has Quentin, I suppose. 

Edited September 14, 2014 by wonderwall

[Sakura12]

We're we supposed to see a sisterly affection with Sara and Laurel? Because they sure tried their hardest to show us how much they don't think about each other's feelings. Sara had a better sisterly bond/relationship with her adopted sister Sin. 

 

I always got the impression that there was a lot of competition between them, with Laurel lording over how much better than she is than Sara, while being jealous that people liked Sara better than her. Then Sara didn't think about Laurel much at all and just wanted to party and have a good time with whoever was willing to join her. 

[wonderwall]

With Laurel's terrible monologues about Laurel drowning in the boat with Sara and this:

 

 

I think it's safe to say that the EPs want us to believe they have a great relationship... Smh

[willpwr]

I view Laurel's relationship with Sara, the sister differently than I see it with Sara, the Canary. Laurel admires the Canary but she doesn't seem to think of what it took for Sara to become that. The same as with Oliver, she likes the idea more than what actually is IMO. It's why the question of S3 for Laurel makes sense to me and it ties with Laurel having told Sara that she stole her life. I'm not very good at phrasing myself but when I see that gif of Laurel saying "That's the Canary", I do see pride but then when a little later she gets handed the jacket, I see her grinning as her thinking that now it's her turn to get the admiration and glory that should have been hers in the first place. She doesn't question what her sister leaving signifies because it doesn't matter, all that matters is the jacket and what it symbolizes to her. Like she said a few times, her sister died on the boat so she might see this Sara as a different person.

[Orion]

Hmm, did Sara think she could keep her boat rendezvous a secret from Laurel? Her mother and Oliver's dad knew. It does seem that Sara and Laurel's relationship was already fractured if not broken when Sara cheated with Oliver. You don't do that to someone you have a sisterly bond with with unless you want to torpedo it.

 

And when she returned, she wasn't thinking about Laurel's feelings when she brought Oliver along to that disastrous dinner. Too bad TPTB didn't explore that more; I think it could have been interesting and given both characters layers.

 

It's weird I think the TPTB wanted it both ways. Sara says to Oliver on the Queen's Gambit that, "Laurel is going to kill me," as Oliver crawls into bed with her and Oliver responds, "she'll never find out."  When Moira breaks the news to Quentin and Laurel that Sara was also on the boat she says "a dock worker saw her sneak on board."

So either Sara got on that boat and went with Oliver because she wanted to have a good time and she never intended for Laurel to find out or Sara wanted her to find out to break up Laurel's perfect relationship fantasy.  Why sneak on the boat if you intend to use this to screw with your sister? Why worry about how Laurel is going to react.  I think the writers tried to fudge this with the I had a crush on you before Laurel conversation. They tried to turn it around to hooking up with the guy Sara liked instead of torpedoing Laurel and Oliver's relationship.

The same questions go for Oliver. If this was a move to get Laurel to end the relationship. Why call Sara and warn her away until Laurel leaves? Again why sneak her on board?  If you need Laurel to know you are cheating on her with Sara so Laurel finally says that's enough it seems this plan was destined to fail. The only thing that makes sense is that Oliver and Sara just wanted to have fun and it wasn't about Laurel at all. That there was some kind of attraction already there between those two.

IMO it started out as the writers trying to show what an bad guy pre-island Oliver was and once they decided to explore Sara and Oliver's relationship they needed to turn down the these two did a terrible thing together storyline but even that doesn't full answer how bizarre some of that story ended up playing out.

[wonderwall]

So based on Laurel's relationship between Oliver and Sara -- and how she is so completely enamoured by their masked counterpart, I think her motivation to be a hero will be "I wanted to be cool like my ex boyfriend and my sister"? 

[Starfish35]

Well the thing about Sara and Oliver just wanting to have some fun is that Dinah said Sara told her she was in love with Oliver. And the story Sara told Oliver on the island supported that. So....I'm not really sure what they were trying to do here.

I can maybe go with a head canon that Sara was always in love with Oliver, and being crazy in love she jumped at the chance of having his undivided attention for awhile, even knowing full well he was not in love with her and that she was just another name on his list. I'm not sure that's what the writers were trying to tell us though, and I'm not sure what it says about Sara.

As for Laurel, they've never shown us any reason why they were together in the first place, so it's hard to say whether Laurel's in love like Sara and just sticking her head in the sand, or what's going on there. Every flashback we've had of them had had negative undertones, whether it's them saying goodbye before he runs off to cheat on her with her sister, or laying on her lap moping about getting another girl pregnant while she tenderly strokes his brow, or her pressuring him to move in with her when he is clearly reluctant to commit. For a relationship that was supposed to be the show's OTP, they've done a damn poor job building a basis for it.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

Yep, her motivation is pretty much. "Gimmie!" in regards to wanting what Sara has. She wants the glory and the adoration. With what they shown so far, I wouldn't be surprised if Laurel kills Sara or gets her killed so she can take her place. 

 

Laurel is beginning to remind me of Carl from the Walking Dead, every time he killed a walker he said "I win". Of course he's twelve not a 30 year old grown woman with a career. 

Edited September 14, 2014 by Sakura12

[statsgirl]

I view Laurel's relationship with Sara, the sister differently than I see it with Sara, the Canary. Laurel admires the Canary but she doesn't seem to think of what it took for Sara to become that. The same as with Oliver, she likes the idea more than what actually is IMO. It's why the question of S3 for Laurel makes sense to me and it ties with Laurel having told Sara that she stole her life. I'm not very good at phrasing myself but when I see that gif of Laurel saying "That's the Canary", I do see pride but then when a little later she gets handed the jacket, I see her grinning as her thinking that now it's her turn to get the admiration and glory that should have been hers in the first place. She doesn't question what her sister leaving signifies because it doesn't matter, all that matters is the jacket and what it symbolizes to her. Like she said a few times, her sister died on the boat so she might see this Sara as a different person.

 

There are a lot of complaints that Laurel is written all over the place, but if you make the assumption that she's basically a shallow person, it all seems to fit together.

 

 

It's weird I think the TPTB wanted it both ways. Sara says to Oliver on the Queen's Gambit that, "Laurel is going to kill me," as Oliver crawls into bed with her and Oliver responds, "she'll never find out."  When Moira breaks the news to Quentin and Laurel that Sara was also on the boat she says "a dock worker saw her sneak on board."

So either Sara got on that boat and went with Oliver because she wanted to have a good time and she never intended for Laurel to find out or Sara wanted her to find out to break up Laurel's perfect relationship fantasy.  Why sneak on the boat if you intend to use this to screw with your sister? Why worry about how Laurel is going to react. 

For Sara, I can see that it might have been that she had a crush on Oliver from way back, from the time Laurel got her grounded so Sara couldn't hook up with him.  For all that he was a douche back pre-island, he would have been pretty hard for a 20 year old to say no to, especially given that Laurel was being a pill about Sara's warnings ("Why can't you just be happy for me?").  So she could have justified to herself getting on the boat that she was in love with Oliver, but she still wasn't open about it just it case it was fake.

 

For Oliver, it was like father, like son.  Robert gave Isabel promises, or maybe he just let her make assumptions that he had no intention of keeping and when it blew up in his face, the easy way out was to fire her.    Laurel was pushing Oliver to commit to something he didn't want to, and he took the easy way out, going with his father and asking Sara on the trip.  He probably was attracted to Sara, she was pretty and fun and liked sex, and he didn't bother to think it all the way through.  You don't sleep with the other sister unless you're intending to blow up the relationship as Laurel said, but the intention was unconscious.

[blixie]

 

For a relationship that was supposed to be the show's OTP, they've done a damn poor job building a basis for it.

 

And they actually had Thea LIST it out for the audience, it's really just beyond arrogant/stupid of the writers to think that having someone voice it means they've "addressed" it somehow. Oh yeah you and Laurel great idea bruh you cheated on her with randoms, you fucked her sister, and then her sister died while cheating with you, and she slept with Tommy while you were gone...RME. Guys that's actually a reason to never ever go there again, especially w/o balancing that with some insight as to why we the audience should believe Oliver/Laurel was ever something so phenomenal that it could overcome all that crap. It's not like they spent anytime establishing this epic in their bones connection in the current timeline. UGH.

[Sakura12]

We still don't even know if Oliver and Sara hooked up before the Gambit. I assume they have because you don't just invite someone you barely know on a month long cruise trip. I could see Sara at the same parties Oliver was at (while Laurel stayed home to study) and they hooked up at those. 

[writersblock51]

 

It wasn't that there were roadblocks put up between Oliver and Felicity--I completely get that's what happens to TV couples-- but rather the abruptness of switching gears to Oliver and Sara that didn't make sense to me and came off as contrived so that the showrunners could get from Point A to Point B. As you mentioned, it just ended up leaving Oliver look like a jerk because all the while he's sexing up Sara, he's still fostering Olicity moments and throwing his relationship with Sara in Laurel's face. Yuck.

 

I remember how 'what the ...?' the scene with Oliver and Sara was - and then the interviews came out over time from SA and CL where they said they worked together to come up with a backstory to try to fit with what was now happening on the show.  Bottom line - they seemed as surprised, even jolted, to have their characaters behave that way as many fans & critics were. 

 

Add that to Many Bennett's shocked reaction to being told Slade's motive for destroying Oliver was because he had been in love with Shado.  MB has said that up to that point, he'd never played Slade as being romantically interested in Shado at all. 

 

I put all of this on the EPs and then the writers.  And none of it has helped the characters whatsoever.  MB and SA were able to make the best of it and then some, IMO.  CL did a very good job as Sara throughout that mess. 

 

I would have liked to see how Slade and Oliver drifted apart and came to blows if a different, non-Shado angle had been explored instead.

[Starfish35]

I would a thousand times have preferred Oliver and Slade's fallout not to have been over Shado. :(

[DrSpaceman10]

I thought that the Slade/Oliver fall-out was somehow going to be about Slade's son Joe instead of Shado, but they seem to have completely forgotten about Joe...

[wonderwall]

I always figured that Slade and Oliver's fallout had to do with Oliver betraying Slade (thus the stabbing him in the eye deal) in the sense that Oliver didn't trust him only to find that Oliver was wrong. 

 

I feel like there could've been many scenarios the writers could've played at, they just chose the easiest way out, thus choosing the weakest choice in terms of motivation. 

[statsgirl]

Having the fall-out be over Shado is the sloppiest writing.  Apparently guys are always bros unless a woman gets in the way.

 

AK said in that infamous interview that Oliver and Laurel will always be important to each other because of what they've shared.  I don't get that at all.  If anything, they are like Capek's Romeo and Juliet, two children in love with love and the idea that they are being adults, with no real sense of who the other person is.  Most of the time it seems they were either lying to each other or to themselves.

 

If "always being in each other's life because of what they've shared" applies to anyone, it's Oliver and Sara.  They both started out as selfish children, went through some horrific times both separately and together, and came out of them determined to right the wrongs that are done to people who can't defend themselves.

 

Laurel says she's a good-doer but I've never felt she connected to the Arrow over wanting to do good, not like Sara did wanting to protect women and just generally stop bad guys.  While Oliver and Sara argued about killing, Laurel's "I looked into his eyes and he's a killer" just served put her an ocean away from Oliver.

[BkWurm1]

It's weird I think the TPTB wanted it both ways. Sara says to Oliver on the Queen's Gambit that, "Laurel is going to kill me," as Oliver crawls into bed with her and Oliver responds, "she'll never find out."  When Moira breaks the news to Quentin and Laurel that Sara was also on the boat she says "a dock worker saw her sneak on board."

 

I do think that Oliver was both using hooking up with Sara as a way to blow up his relationship with Laurel and while at the same time telling himself he would get away with it.  He had to know on some level that it was bound to come out.  He could sneak Sara on but once they got back there would be a long list of people that would have known about Sara that might give the secret away including Sara herself.   I think he just lived in denial over what he was doing half the time.  He also was so good with the half truth and lies that he bought into them as well. 

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Arrow is full of weak storytelling. It is most notable in the relationship department.

 

A) They determine Slade is going to be the villain of season 2. They've established in season 1 he and Oliver are on an island together and have teamed up. They must drive a wedge between them, but they fail to choose a wedge before they break the partnership up. Suddenly they throw Oliver's motivation for getting off the island in S1 (Laurel, his great love!) out the window and he's banging the only available chic on the island who Slade also happens to be in love with. Thus creating motivation for animosity.

 

First. I don't see why Shado would choose to bang Oliver. He's barely tolerable when she meets him. She endures him. Did a great love grow between them? Why would she choose him over Slade when she essentially could choose? Oliver is a child in comparison to her and Slade. Are we to believe Oliver and Shado loved each other? Were they just FWB? Did Laurel's picture float away one day while Oliver was bathing? Did it fall out of his pocket while he was stripping for some sweaty island sex?

 

B) Oliver and Laurel 4eva! The ending is written for them. Oliver is Green Arrow. Laurel is Black Canary. Green Arrow and Black Canary 4eva! *Yes, I realize the comics have them in a tumultuous relationship, however ever argument I've heard for Lauriver is "they belong together" because the comics say so.

 

Every OTP/endgame couple has obstacles to overcome. No TV series has ever presented a couple from episode 1 and kept them together until the final curtain call. However, you can't give them a highly toxic history and expect anyone to pull for them. Whether Sara or Laurel is your Black Canary why would you want Oliver with either of them? Regardless of which one he chooses he's still banged her sibling. I personally believe people can accept Oliver and Sara because she's the less abrasive of the two. However, both Laurel and Sara were horrible to each other and used Oliver as a conduit for their animosity. It wasn't that he wasn't willing to be used, but he wasn't much more than a weapon for each of them to hurt each other. I don't believe either girl actually loved him. There isn't reason to believe either girl had feelings more than caring a bit for him and reaping the benefits of his plentiful practice in the sex department. Laurel wanted to be a trophy wife (of sorts since she had the aspirations for a career) and Sara wanted the hot boy. I can't see an instance where either one of them showed a sacrificing love for him. It really came down to who was going to get the "w" this go around.

 

C) Oliver and Isobel. While they weren't in a relationship, they had relations. I do believe their hook-up was poorly planned and executed. It cast a negative light on Oliver. I might have believed Isobel seduced him if they hadn't addressed the rumors about Oliver and Felicity earlier in the episode. It would have played a lot more powerfully if Oliver and Isobel had screwed and then Isobel's line about taking the night off was thrown out at Felicity and shock had been written all over Oliver's face. Instead we have Oliver essentially proving he's a playboy who would sleep with a female coworker. Isobel has no reason to believe better. It undermines the relationship between Oliver and Felicity since he did nothing to combat Isobel's belief in him thus dragging Felicity down.

 

Isobel's motivation for hating Felicity and the affair with Robert were WEAK. I think it would have played out better had Oliver never slept with Isobel and she stole the company from him. When he stares at her in disbelief, she responds something along the lines of "your father wouldn't leave his family for me so I am leaving them with nothing." Instead the audience is taken out of the gravity of the situation when Isobel reveals she banged father and son as they are repulsed by the knowledge Oliver banged the woman Robert said he'd leave his family for. Isobel could have also offered a line about Felicity leaving Oliver because he was no longer CEO of QC.

 

The writers are building a house on a watered down foundation. They seem to have the materials but couldn't mix them properly.

 

My fear is they will ruin Oliver's one relationship with a female which has worked. They weren't concentrating on a relationship between Oliver and Felicity. It appears to have happened organically and surprised everyone. When they turn their attention to writing it, I'm almost certain it'll go the way of all Oliver's relationships. Why? Because they don't have a system of checks and balances. They use gorilla math and believe with blind luck they'll get the right answer. 

Edited September 15, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[calliope1975]

A) They determine Slade is going to be the villain of season 2. They've established in season 1 he and Oliver are on an island together and have teamed up. They must drive a wedge between them, but they fail to choose a wedge before they break the partnership up. Suddenly they throw Oliver's motivation for getting off the island in S1 (Laurel, his great love!) out the window and he's banging the only available chic on the island who Slade also happens to be in love with. Thus creating motivation for animosity.

 

First. I don't see why Shado would choose to bang Oliver. He's barely tolerable when she meets him. She endures him. Did a great love grow between them? Why would she choose him over Slade when she essentially could choose? Oliver is a child in comparison to her and Slade. Are we to believe Oliver and Shado loved each other? Were they just FWB? Did Laurel's picture float away one day while Oliver was bathing? Did it fall out of his pocket while he was stripping for some sweaty island sex?

 

This is so very true. Oliver was a whiny mess when Shado meets him. And that hair was beyond not attractive. Between still spoiled, rich boy Oliver and hot, Australian special forces Slade, I know who I'm picking. While the motivation would still have been weak, it would have made more sense for Slade to mentally lose it on the Mirukuru if he and Shado had been together. At least, it might have made Shadow! Shado whispering in his ear a bit more believable. 

 

My fear is they will ruin Oliver's one relationship with a female which has worked. They weren't concentrating on a relationship between Oliver and Felicity. It appears to have happened organically and surprised everyone. When they turn their attention to writing it, I'm almost certain it'll go the way of all Oliver's relationships. Why? Because they don't have a system of checks and balances. They use gorilla math and believe with blind luck they'll get the right answer.

 

 

I, too, worry TPTB will botch Olicity. They stumbled into it, completely flailed about last year when it stated accelerating out of their control, and instead of slowing it down organically, threw a stall pairing in the mix that made zero sense - even to the actors playing those characters. So yeah, I'm concerned. 

[Chaser]

I'm concerned about them ruining Olicity too. What I think works in their favor: They have a built foundation (trust/friendship), they aren't working backwards (Laurel), they are acknowledging we need Felicity to stand on her own (backstory) and they are keeping Oliver celibate (Lord Varys). I'm holding on to this. Tightly. 

[DrSpaceman10]

they are acknowledging we need Felicity to stand on her own (backstory) and they are keeping Oliver celibate (Lord Varys). I'm holding on to this. Tightly. 

 

I completely agree with these two points. In order for Felicity/Oliver to work as a couple I think they definitely need to do these two things. 

I'm choosing to believe that SA is right when he says that Felicity is the only woman in Oliver's life this year. Also, we're finally getting Felicity's backstory in 3x05 (presumably)

[wingster55]

Huh, could you embellish why? I just want to understand.

 

Sure...I think in s1 he really didn't have much interest in Felicity even as  a friend. She made him laugh but so did Dig, Thea and Tommy at various times IIRC.

In s2 the relationship was moving at a breakneck speed in the first half in a very non-subtle way. They even had him kill when she (not his mom, not Thea) was in danger. But we were never really given or shown a reason why or when. It was just s2 started and all the Olicity.

[statsgirl]

I'm holding on to Stephen Amell having a good idea of what works and what doesn't, and what the fans of the show want.  AK and MG may be married men but they seem to have no idea how to write a good relationship.

 

 

Did Laurel's picture float away one day while Oliver was bathing? Did it fall out of his pocket while he was stripping for some sweaty island sex?

It didn't need to float away or fall out of his pocket?  Oliver noticed that there was a very attractive woman on the island, and Laurel was history. Every time they try to tell us some more about Oliver/Laurel in the past, what they end up doing is showing us just how shallow that relationship was.

 

Didn't Slade have a son and a family back home? That's the only explanation I can think of for picking Oliver over him.

 

 

t would have played a lot more powerfully if Oliver and Isobel had screwed and then Isobel's line about taking the night off was thrown out at Felicity and shock had been written all over Oliver's face. Instead we have Oliver essentially proving he's  playboy who would sleep with a female coworker. Isobel has no reason to believe better. It undermines the relationship between Oliver and Felicity since he did nothing to combat the belief in him thus dragging her down.

YES!  I've seen it defended as wanting to distract Isabel from Felicity but all it showed was that Oliver will sleep with any female at the drop of a hat so yes, the chances are almost certain he's sleeping with Felicity too.  

 

I've been ranting about  how his lack of protecting Felicity from Isabel completely undermines the idea that he cares for Felicity since the episode aired. So much for his promise in 1x14 to protect her, or don't office politics and bitchy remarks from the joint Big Boss count? 

 

 

Isobel's motivation for hating Felicity and the affair with Robert were WEAK. I think it would have played out better had Oliver never slept with Isobel and she stole the company from him. When he stares at her in disbelief, she responds something along the lines of "your father wouldn't leave his family for me so I am leaving them with nothing." Instead the audience is taken out of the gravity of the situation when Isobel reveals she banged father and son. Isobel could have also offered a line about Felicity leaving Oliver because he was no longer CEO of QC.

I would have liked it better if Isabel associated Felicity with Moira (blonde hair, consort of the CEO) and played out her twisted fantasy for ruining Robert (Oliver) and Moira (Felicity) for what they had done to her in the past.

 

I like Oliver's horror that he had banged  his father's mistress, it reinforced that yes,  he was like his father, and that he had got so obsessed with Slade that he "was so distracted that he failed to notice that the real danger is right in front of him" (quote from Unthinkable).  It helped him go down further into the depths so that he could rise again.

 

 

I think in s1 he really didn't have much interest in Felicity even as  a friend. She made him laugh but so did Dig, Thea and Tommy at various times IIRC.

I don't think that they wrote him as having a romantic interest in her but they were building a substantive friendship.  When she left that team at the start of The Dodger, he went after her, apologized, and agreed to try things her way.    For the blinkered Oliver Queen who never apologized except for pre-island stuff, that was pretty big. (Diggle also got sort of an apology at the end of the season and it was well deserved.) The theme of Oliver listening to Felicity and taking her advice continued the rest of the season.  

 

Diggle had repeatedly warned him against working with Helena; in the Huntress Returns, he finally stops her not after she hurts Tommy but after she uses and ties up Felicity.  

 

One of the biggest changes in their relationship was at the end of Salvation when Oliver doesn't want "to be on an island any more".  He approached Laurel, she says "sure, let's get coffee sometime" and then goes after Tommy, whereupon Oliver went to Felicity and told her she could talk to him and she accepts.  Very trope. 

 

In s1 Oliver still believed that Laurel was the love of his life but he was more honest with Felicity and steadily growing closer to her as a friend and someone he relied on. There is a lot of honesty there, unlike his relationship with Laurel.

Edited September 15, 2014 by statsgirl

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Sure...I think in s1 he really didn't have much interest in Felicity even as  a friend. She made him laugh but so did Dig, Thea and Tommy at various times IIRC.

In s2 the relationship was moving at a breakneck speed in the first half in a very non-subtle way. They even had him kill when she (not his mom, not Thea) was in danger. But we were never really given or shown a reason why or when. It was just s2 started and all the Olicity.

 

I think the writer's actually stumbled upon making Olicity a viable couple versus planning for it which is why it works.

 

IMO Felicity does more than make Oliver smile. Honestly she makes him a better person. While others in his life also contribute, Felicity has consistently pushed Oliver to be more than he thinks he is. Felicity was the first to challenge him not to kill. When Tommy learned about Oliver's second life as a vigilante, it also furthered his desire not to kill. Felicity introduced Oliver to an alternative way. She also challenged him to not just target 1% but to pursue other criminals not on his list. She pushes him to be a better person.

 

In S1 Oliver had a focus which was right his father's wrongs and maybe have a chance at a normal life. Initially I think he wanted it with Laurel, then he realized Tommy and Laurel were together, there was some blah blah blah in between,  and then he and Laurel slept together. He thought he could hang up the hood and be Mr.Laurel Lance. I don't think he was thinking of Felicity romantically. However, sometimes that is how the best relationships start. While she verbalized her appreciation for his body, she also pushed him to pursue McKenna if it made him happy. Therefore while she might have been attracted to him, I don't think she was crushing on him. It made for a fun and playful dynamic. A trust was built as well as a friendship. I don't believe Felicity was ever an obligation to him. He cared for her. She cared for him. Their partnership began out of necessity but it grew and became more than just vigilante and IT support.

 

In S2 we see Diggle and Felicity bring Oliver back from Lian Yu. There is obviously a trust there as well as a friendship. Otherwise Felicity would have taken her million and splurged on shoes. Oliver comes back and wants to be different. Felicity basically tells him "be different then." She also believes in him otherwise she wouldn't have bothered redoing the lair. She would have upgraded her systems at home and lived a quiet life. They work together with Diggle (not ignoring him but focusing on the Olicity parts) as a team. It requires trust, honesty, and respect. Something Oliver doesn't have with Laurel or any other woman in his life. He's lying to everyone, but Diggle and Felicity. 

 

As S2 progresses I do think the natural chemistry between Stephen and Emily sped up the Olicity train. Their friendship strengthens the relationship of the two characters. It is evident they enjoy working together which I believe a lot of the audience has picked up on. The character of Felicity Smoak brought something to Arrow which was sorely lacking, a bright spot despite the overdose of angst and manpain. Stephen plays off of Emily with a lightness neither Katie nor Caity draw from him. 

 

I don't believe it is all Felicity though being good for Oliver. Sometimes we don't know our potential until someone knocks us out of our comfort zone. Felicity has a skill set and a natural empathy for people. She cares because it is her nature. Her IT skills allow her to help people. She is never going to suit up and parkour her way through SC. She is support for someone with those skills. She complements him as much as he complements her. Oliver gave her an alternative to Sci-Fi marathon TV viewing on the weekends. Each push the other to be more than what they are and see what they could be.

 

Why did Oliver kill the Count when he threatened Felicity? There are probably lots of theories. Was it to give Olicity a beat at the end of the episode? More than likely. However, Oliver had dealt with the Count before and it hadn't proven successful. I'm working off distant memories of the Count's time on Arrow. Wasn't this the third time he made an appearance? The Count was responsible for the vertigo Thea got her hands on. The Count was an imminent threat to Felicity. You could argue the Count was threatening/had threatened two women Oliver deeply cared for. Therefore he may have been dialed up an extra notch or twelve. 

Edited September 15, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[wonderwall]

That's an interesting view. You can basically skip this essay if you want :p It's basically my view of them and their progression.

 

I personally think their friendship in season 1 ran deeper than Felicity just making him laugh. All of Oliver's friendships in season 1 ran deeper than that. Oliver could trust Felicity, and vice versa just as he did with John. I think Oliver found Felicity to be endearing and not just funny which is one of the reasons why he wanted her to stick around. Even in season 1 we saw Felicity push Oliver to be smarter about his missions instead of just being murderous and burly. I personally saw a real give take in their relationship back then. 

 

In season 2, you're kind of right. They were moving really quickly in the first half of season 2, then Sara came and then Olicity got put in the backburner (talk about whiplash), then the final 3 episodes they were sprinting to the finish line again. I think the writers did well by developing their relationship in the first half of the season. That's the part where they grew from friends to partners/people whom the other can't really live without. Then the first half of the season ended and nothing happened because of all the Lance drama/Slade/the useless Helena episode because I think the writers didn't really know what to do (notice most of these episodes are filler episodes) so they just brought in an onslaught of DC characters... But then they resumed their development as a sort of culmination of the entire season and it showed us that Oliver and Felicity are truly confidantes and equals. I think what made this step between partners to confidantes believable was the tidbits in season 2b. Even when Felicity was in the background she silently supported Oliver regardless of who he was dating.

 

I personally don't like it that Oliver killed because Felicity was in danger, but I don't understand what that has to do with his relationship with Thea and his mother which has been strained to say the least. Felicity was, at that point, one of the two people who knew every facet of his life (aka Oliver Queen and the Arrow, bar his past), he vowed to keep her safe because he brought her into that world so I don't see why people tend to undercut their relationship as being less meaningful. I believe that Oliver killed because Felicity meant something to him, and I don't think he quite understood that at that point in time. Like I said, I don't like that he killed for Felicity, I don't think that's healthy, so I hope that season 3 allows Oliver to grow in that department. 

 

While I think that the writers did mess up with Olicity in season 2b in terms of pacing, I think they're one of the most well written relationships on the show. Which, I know, doesn't say a lot. But, there are other reasons why I like them more than any other couple I've seen on television. As EBR said, they complement one another. I believe Felicity brings out the best in Oliver and Oliver brings out the best in Felicity by bringing her into his life as the Arrow. They both benefit from being around each other and aren't afraid to go toe to toe with one another. They don't bullshit each other because they know the other deserves more than that, and most importantly, they're honest with each other. In the first episode of season 3 we'll see Oliver being open with Felicity and I think that, that's a monumental step for him! While there have been a few setbacks and a few WTFs, it didn't necessarily discount why they're good for one another for me. It also helps that while they're completely different, they share the same values and goals which is what a lot great relationships are based on. 

 

I feel like there's much to explore with this relationship and hopefully we'll see this in the third season, and I'm sort of happy about this. I hope the writers don't screw them up as they tend to do so with a lot of the relationships on the show, but yeah, I think that this is only the beginning for Oliver/Felicity. 

 

And I totally get that not everyone will feel the same as me, just thought I would add in my two cents. 

Edited September 15, 2014 by wonderwall

[KirkB]

Slade's main motivation for going after Oliver being Shado was, as some of you have said, weak writing. The Mirakuru messing with his head was supposed to be an excuse but if anything it made the situation worse. Had Slade and Shado already been in a relationship, or moving in that direction at least, when Oliver came along at least that element of the story would have made a little more sense. I think a better motivation for Slade coming after Oliver would have been his being injured (because of Oliver's actions), given the Mirakuru without his consent, being injured again (losing an eye this time) and being left, seemingly to die, on the island while Oliver got away.

Edited September 15, 2014 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

I think a better motivation for Slade coming after Oliver would have been his being injured (because of Oliver's actions), given the Mirakuru without his consent, being injured again (losing an eye this time) and being left, seemingly to die, on the island while Oliver got away.

True that he was injured because of Oliver's actions.  But Oliver only gave him the mirakuru to try to save him.  If the mirakuru hadn't been twisting Slade's mind by then, he should have got that.

 

The only reason Oliver left him to die (thinking he had killed him with an arrow through his eye) was because Slade was already crazy.

[wingster55]

 

While I think that the writers did mess up with Olicity in season 2b in terms of pacing, 

In 2b? I think it was jarring considering 2a but 2a was too fast as I've said.

Saying Felicity brings out the best in Oliver is ignoring Diggle (as s2 did) and how he was Oliver's go to guy for opening up, for getting his crap called on etc.

There was minimal that in s2 (I could count the significant Oliver/Diggle moments on one hand)

When one character has to be minimalized to help Oliver/Felicity get momentum...it's not working. 

[wonderwall]

In 2b? I think it was jarring considering 2a but 2a was too fast as I've said.

I guess that's your opinion. We'll agree to disagree :)

Saying Felicity brings out the best in Oliver is ignoring Diggle (as s2 did) and how he was Oliver's go to guy for opening up, for getting his crap called on etc.

Why can't two people bring out the best in him? I don't understand. I didn't discount Diggle's importance in Oliver's life because we weren't talking about Diggle we were talking about Oliver's relationship with Felicity, so I was just emphasizing Felicity's importance in his life. Diggle and Oliver don't open up to each other in terms of feelings, this has been stated as such by Digg. However, with Felicity, he doesn't have this problem. he opens up to her in a way he doesn't/can't with Diggle. Does that make Diggle/Oliver's relationship any less? No. I don't think so. More than one person can bring out the best in someone. They just bring out different kinds of 'bests' in Oliver. 

 

There was minimal that in s2 (I could count the significant Oliver/Diggle moments on one hand)

When one character has to be minimalized to help Oliver/Felicity get momentum...it's not working.

Diggle's involvement wasn't minimized because of Olicity and I think it's unfair to say so. Olicity had a maximum of five minutes per episode (and most of the time it's less than that). What really minimized most of the character's roles is the Lance family drama and Slade's half-baked story. I also believe that a lot of the flashbacks weren't necessary. If Digg's involvement was minimized, it wasn't because of Oliver's relationship with Felicity, it was the Arrow writers bringing on too much to fast. 

Edited September 15, 2014 by wonderwall

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

In 2b? I think it was jarring considering 2a but 2a was too fast as I've said.

Saying Felicity brings out the best in Oliver is ignoring Diggle (as s2 did) and how he was Oliver's go to guy for opening up, for getting his crap called on etc.

There was minimal that in s2 (I could count the significant Oliver/Diggle moments on one hand)

When one character has to be minimalized to help Oliver/Felicity get momentum...it's not working. 

 

I don't think Olicity needed help getting momentum. By the end of last season there were plenty of viewers who had purchased their ticket for the Olicity train. Personally I think the train was running on the coal of Lauriver. 

 

There are plenty of people in my life who bring out the best in me. However, we are talking about a romantic relationship. I don't think Diggle and Oliver will be bed buddies anytime soon. The discussion was geared towards Felicity and Oliver and the progression of their relationship. I do think Diggle is good for Oliver, but in different ways. Diggle was accepting of the killing as a soldier. Felicity helped Oliver see he didn't have to kill everyone. Sometimes Oliver has to kill and Digg can be his support when he has to. Everyone plays a different role because no one wants to watch a show with only a cast of Oliver. You need a Diggle and a Felicity to be partners. You need a Moira and Thea for family. The list goes on.

 

2b had too much going on. Most of which was a cluster. In an attempt to right the early decisions made by the writers and EPs, we muddled through a lot of useless filler. Effort was made to fix the dynamic of Oliver and the Lance sisters which brought them front and center. I don't think Olicity marginalized anyone so much as retconning to redeem Laurel took over. The focus became trying to fix the chaos and choose a Canary. Oliver became a pawn in his own journey because the writers won't commit to a Canary. 

[wingster55]

Diggle's involvement wasn't minimized because of Olicity and I think it's unfair to say so.

 

I think it is...in 2.22 when Oliver was having his moment of doubt it was only Felicity that was allowed to motivate him. Diggle was conveniently missing. 

What really minimized most of the character's roles is the Lance family drama and Slade's half-baked story.

 

Those things were in 2A as well. 5 minutes is an under...exaggeration (?) I think. 

 

Oliver don't open up to each other in terms of feelings, this has been stated as such by Digg.

 

Rewatching s1...that's not really true despite what Diggle said.

 

Honestly not to be rude...but if Felicity wasn't scaled back in 2b I don't think many that dislike it here would have hated it as much.

2A had all the things 2B did..just a bit more ramped while Felicity (and only her) was scaled back. 

 

Oliver can have two people in his life who mean the most..but the show tried place Felicity as being more important to him...than anyone in his life. 

Edited September 15, 2014 by wingster55

[statsgirl]

 

I think it is...in 2.22 when Oliver was having his moment of doubt it was only Felicity that was allowed to motivate him.

Diggle was there in the scene in 2.21 when both Diggle and Felicity tried to keep Oliver from sacrificing himself. And Laurel had the big speech to save Oliver at the end of that episode. Kreisburg even said that at his lowest point, Laurel brings him back up.  Because Felicity had been background scenery for most of 2b (even Diggle got his own Suicide Squad episode), they had to have Felicity affect Oliver in 2.22 in order to buy the ruse in 2.23.  If they hadn't, few people in the audience would have been pulled in by the "I love you".

 

Just think how much more time there would have been for Diggle... and Moira, and Thea and Roy... if they had dropped Laurel's addiction arc.  That storyline contributed nothing to Oliver's growth (unlike the scenes with Felicity) and little to the show overall.

Edited September 15, 2014 by statsgirl

[catrox14]

Oliver can have two people in his life who mean the most..but the show tried place Felicity as being more important to him...than anyone in his life.

 

I don't think that's been shown to be true at all.  Pretty much everyone in Oliver's life is important to him for different reasons. I would strongly argue that Thea and Moira (RIP) were the most important people in his life.

[BkWurm1]

I think it is...in 2.22 when Oliver was having his moment of doubt it was only Felicity that was allowed to motivate him. Diggle was conveniently missing.

 

I assumed this was just serving the plot of what is to come in 2.23

[HighHopes]

 

What really minimized most of the character's roles is the Lance family drama and Slade's half-baked story.

 

Those things were in 2A as well. 5 minutes is an under...exaggeration (?) I think.

 

The Lance Family Drama was in 2b, and it went for 4 straight episodes. 

 

I'm currently getting my older sister into Arrow, and we just finished 2x01 and her comments about the relationships on the show are interesting. She's not an internet person, so you could probably call her "the casual viewer" as she also had zero prior knowledge about this show aside from the fact that it's about the Green Arrow (who she also only knows about from Smallville). Three of her comments have stood out to me, two of them being about the Laurel x Oliver relationship. I can't remember which episode it was but she said that there is no way Laurel would ever forgive Oliver. Then after the scene with Laurel and Oliver at Tommy's grave in the second season premiere, she said "Snore, their back and forth kills me". (Her other comment was after Oliver and Felicity jump through the window, and she said quietly "he totally loves her." after I asked her what she said she said again "he loves her, he just doesn't know it yet"). 

 

I'm looking forward to her thoughts about the second season, especially the second half of it. 

Edited September 15, 2014 by HighHopes

[writersblock51]

 

2A had all the things 2B did..just a bit more ramped while Felicity (and only her) was scaled back.

 

I'd say that Team Arrow - and just the core 3 - got scaled back, not just Felicity.  I don't think Oliver does as well as a hero when he's away from this teammates.  Sara was added to the mix in a big way in 2B as part of the Team, Roy was a bit involved, too. Those all annoyed me.  But what truly threw me off the show in 2B was Laurel and the Lance family drama, and I say this as a fan of Quentin. 

 

Once Laurel started taking up more time on screen, the show got dropped from being watching live in our household and put on the DVR.  I watched the show only after I'd read comments on Twitter and TWoP.  I then had a good idea of what to Fast Forward through.

 

As others have pointed out, Laurel's addiction arc, such as it was, did NOTHING to contribute to Oliver's journey.  I'd rather have seen Roy's training, heaven help me.

 

Olicity moments vary from episode to episode but they are never the focal point of any episode.  They may generate the most buzz, so perhaps that contributes to the notion that their scenes took up more air time than they really did.

[wingster55]

Just think how much more time there would have been for Diggle... and Moira, and Thea and Roy... if they had dropped Laurel's addiction arc.  That storyline contributed nothing to Oliver's growth (unlike the scenes with Felicity) and little to the show overall.

 

Unfortunately Moira, Thea and Roy were characters that never really had significant focus.

Moira had a little in s1 but after the Glades her story kinda stagnated regardless. 

 

Not every story has to be about Oliver

 

I would strongly argue that Thea and Moira (RIP) were the most important people in his life.

 

I would agree but I don't think this has been shown so much on screen...particularly in the case of Thea. 

 

The Lance Family Drama was in 2b, and it went for 4 straight episodes.

 

I'd say it started ever since Laurel got busted for a DUI. 

I'd also say that I liked the Lance arc..it was necessary, and not *that* badly written.

Edited September 15, 2014 by wingster55