Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[tv echo]

I've read many media reviews of the final Olicity scene on Arrow and they can't even agree on where Oliver & Felicity ended up. I've seen it variously referred to as the "afterlife," "Heaven," "eternity," "paradise dimension," "bubble universe," "pocket universe," "another plane [of existence]," and so on.

Although the script has Felicity saying "afterlife," I think she was just making an assumption. Oliver just smiles and does not say anything. I think MG intentionally left the ending somewhat cryptic in that respect.

Edited February 2, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

This week I'm kicking off my own retrospective (from the perspective of an OTA/Olicity fan) by first posting the 2012 Arrow casting announcements for key roles. FYI, Arrow casting announcements were published prior to the 2012 pilot airdate in the following order: SA, DR, ST, KC, WH, CD, PB, JS, EBR and JB. Also, I'll post any producer/cast comments on their auditions. These announcements and comments will be posted in the individual character threads.

I may also post some early producer comments about what Arrow was supposed to be about that were made prior to the 2012 pilot being aired.

After that, I'll start posting my key scene transcriptions in the individual episode threads (and other threads, as appropriate).

Edited February 3, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I have finished posting my selected scene transcriptions for Season 1 episodes.

There were two S1 tie-in comic books (Arrow Volume 1 and Arrow Volume 2) that were published in 2013 and 2014. These comic books include additional events that happened during the first season of Arrow and some additional flashbacks. The stories in these tie-in comics were written by a lot of different people, including, among others, MG, AK, GB, Geoff Johns, Beth Schwartz, Wendy Mericle, and Ben Sokowloski.

Notable stories include: flashbacks to explain why Laurel decided to go to law school, some additional Olicity scenes that weren't included in the aired episodes, Felicity's disastrous date with a newly-met co-worker at QC, flashbacks to Laurel & Tommy's tumultuous relationship during the five years that Oliver was presumed dead, and what happened during Oliver's desperate motorcycle ride to CNRI to save Laurel in the S1 finale and why he felt even more guilt over not getting there in time to save Tommy. My transcriptions of these stories are posted in the Green Arrow In Comics thread.

Edited February 9, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I have finished posting my selected scene transcriptions for Season 2 episodes.

Another tie-in comic book (Arrow Volume 2.5) was published in 2015. This comic book included events that happened during the summer hiatus between Season 2 and Season 3 of Arrow.

Among other things, this comic book answers the question of: "How did Oliver realize that he had romantic feelings for Felicity?" 

My transcriptions from this comic book are posted in the Green Arrow In Comics thread.

Edited February 16, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Here's another 2012 SA interview that I had never read before, which I traced from a recent blogger tweet (this interview was published right before the pilot aired on Oct. 10, 2012)...

Fall TV Preview: Stephen Amell Reveals Arrow's Greatest Weakness: 'He's Going to Self-Destruct'
By Matt Webb Mitovich / October 9, 2012
https://tvline.com/2012/10/09/fall-tv-preview-the-cw-arrow-stephen-amell/

Quote

TVLINE | In your own words, describe what Oliver was like before the boat trip, and what he’s like when he comes back. Juxtapose those two men.
He was oblivious and totally insulated – he’s never had to fight for anything — and then he goes to the island and gets beat down to nothing, to his bare form.
*  *  *
TVLINE | Turning to Laurel Lance (played by Katie Cassidy): Is it intended irony that Oliver is now the kind of guy she probably always wanted….
He is now her dream guy.

TVLINE | …but he can’t be that dream guy for her.
Right. He is everything she has always wanted him to be, except that the person he is constantly showing her now is the worst version of himself, to try and push her away. But what keeps happening is, in spite of himself, he shows her the good things. Or maybe she doesn’t buy into the bad things?

TVLINE | Laurel’s kid sister was with Oliver on the yacht, and was among those who died. Were he and Laurel on a Ross-and-Rachel-like break at the time, or was it outright cheating?
[Laughs] I don’t know what the official backstory is, but in my head, Laurel probably called him on his s—t and he went, “You know what? Not only are you not going to do that, but I’m going to woo your sister and take her on a trip.” In his head, that probably would have brought Laurel closer to him, because he was a narcissist — “She’ll chase after me” and all that. We were probably dealing with a 20-year-old Laurel who hadn’t gone to law school yet and who was probably a little more impressionable, but when he comes back, the tricks that might have worked on her before don’t work now. She’s seen too much of the world.
*  *  *
TVLINE | Oliver and Arrow are obviously quite formidable people. What would you say is the greatest threat to what Oliver is doing here?
He has post-traumatic stress disorder, so the greatest threat to him is himself, at this point. If he doesn’t lean on somebody for help… he’s going to self-destruct.

TVLINE | Could that “somebody” be legal activist Laurel Lance?
It could be…. It could also be [Laurel’s father] Detective Lance, who’s an ally (played by Dresden Files‘ Paul Blackthorne). The relationship that we are going to explore sooner rather than later, which we didn’t get to do a ton of in the pilot, is with Diggle, Oliver’s bodyguard (Dexter‘s David Ramsey) He is not a patsy; he is a formidable character, and we delve into that relationship immediately in Episode 2.

Edited March 3, 2020 by tv echo

[scarynikki12]

Today is apparently Laurel Dissertation Day and I have MANY thoughts that are going to be spread across multiple threads. I apologize in advance.

7 hours ago, tv echo said:

501 (Legacy) – In a flashback scene, Laurel asks Oliver for a promise:

 

Laurel: "After tonight, I realized anything can happen. Which is why I need you to make me a promise." 
Oliver: "Anything." 
Laurel: "Please... please don't let me be the last Canary. That way, a part of me will always be out there with you."
Oliver: "I promise."

501 (Legacy) - DELETED FLASHBACK SCENE (included in Arrow trailer shown during San Diego Comic Con 2016, but not in any aired episode): A dying Laurel tells Oliver that he can't go it alone:
Laurel: "I need you to promise me something."
Oliver: "Anything."
Laurel: "Your instinct is always trying to go it alone. But Ollie, you can't."

 

They should have kept the original last words and not just because Laurel thought she was going to live and was planning to continue on as Black Canary. The original words are a far better set up for season 5 and the rest of the series. His lingering guilt about the way he'd treated her and then his grief over her death would guarantee that he'd try to live up to that promise. Just like working to honor Tommy when he died. So he'd purposefully build and mentor a Team Arrow, he'd search for someone who had tech/powers that were similar or the same as Laurel's collar (I disagree that the team needed a Canary Cry to get things done since Laurel's didn't seem to have much impact outside of a few specific scenes but they wanted to bring in Dinah so it's forgivable), and would strive to be a better partner in his personal life. He's still Oliver so he wouldn't fully succeed but he'd be making more of an effort than he might have otherwise.

The new words make it seem like Laurel secretly thought/knew she was going to die when the actual episode made clear that the opposite was true. She wasn't going to take a fancy lawyer job and give up being a vigilante but intended to continue being Black Canary.

Her confessing that she's still in love with Oliver can be explained away by her brush with death. In the previous episodes she was obviously building towards at least floating the idea of getting back together what with the face caressing, discussing their past relationship without the usual animosity, and the glare at Felicity when she realized Thea knew Oliver was going to propose. If Oliver and Felicity had not broken up I don't think she'd have made a move but they did and this was probably her only chance to try and get back together. I think her plan was to take advantage of the break up and have the same amount of one on one time with Oliver than Felicity used to, be someone he can turn to and depend on personally, and eventually broach the idea of going on a date or full on getting back together.

[tv echo]

 I always thought that the final aired words (Laurel: "That way, a part of me will always be out there with you.") gave off a creepy, stalkerish vibe.

[Mellowyellow]

21 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Her confessing that she's still in love with Oliver can be explained away by her brush with death. In the previous episodes she was obviously building towards at least floating the idea of getting back together what with the face caressing, discussing their past relationship without the usual animosity, and the glare at Felicity when she realized Thea knew Oliver was going to propose. If Oliver and Felicity had not broken up I don't think she'd have made a move but they did and this was probably her only chance to try and get back together. I think her plan was to take advantage of the break up and have the same amount of one on one time with Oliver than Felicity used to, be someone he can turn to and depend on personally, and eventually broach the idea of going on a date or full on getting back together.

I agree with you and I think this is why when Oliver reset the universe he dumped her ass on Tommy. He probably didn't want the inconvenience of her chasing him again!

Kept her dead too for good measure.

I felt like the reset wiped out Lauriver in so many ways. Oliver was obviously all aboard the Olicity train and so he walked back all the Lauriver as if it never happened.

I think being Spectre and knowing what happens, his life and love with Felicity, he threw himself into the flashback moment of 314 and just ran with that.

[Mellowyellow]

Olicity having a chat in Paradise one day:

F: What do you mean your previous romances don't exist Oliver?

O: I reset the universe. Wasn't in love with anyone but you after Lian Yu.

F: Oliver don't be ridiculous.

O: No it's true. You know what happened in the new timeline after I laid eyes on you.

F *exasperated*: You can't just go wiping out your romantic history to make up one that suits you better! 

O *smugly* (I thought he was a little smug and proud of himself in 810 at the prospect of telling her about 314): I can and I did.

F *amused*: You're incorrigible

O: Felicity... How do you feel about another baby?

***

Actually in my headcanon they go at it like rabbits and discover they have a paradise whoopsies. Felicity freaks out while Oliver is all chilled.

They then port back to earth and the kids find out about their whoopsies. William laments about how depressing it is that his love life is stagnant while even his parents are breeding in Paradise. 

They have baby Lucas and there are lots of shenanigans and bickering when Mia and William try to take care of the baby together whenever Olicity have to go off to do Spectre-y things.

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Mellowyellow

[Featherhat]

7 hours ago, tv echo said:

 I always thought that the final aired words (Laurel: "That way, a part of me will always be out there with you.") gave off a creepy, stalkerish vibe.

That was just wrong for the character, who even though she had confessed Oliver was the love of her life, also confessed she knew she wasn't his. Leaving aside that it made no sense because she didn't know she was about to due: It just came off weird and pathetic because they needed Laurel to anoint Dinah from the grave to justify a random BC suddenly on the team. I don't for a second believe she'd want someone with her name and a meta upgrade of her ability hanging around the team if she wasn't there. And she'd be furious that they let Siren take over her life and everyone kind of forget about it for ages. 

It also makes her final moments all about Oliver and not about her sister (the actual first BC) and/or their parents, but being forever remembered by the guy who treated her horribly and she's had a shitty relationship with until very recently. Unless she was planning on making it a haunting. 

23 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

In the previous episodes she was obviously building towards at least floating the idea of getting back together what with the face caressing, discussing their past relationship without the usual animosity, and the glare at Felicity when she realized Thea knew Oliver was going to propose. If Oliver and Felicity had not broken up I don't think she'd have made a move but they did and this was probably her only chance to try and get back together. I think her plan was to take advantage of the break up and have the same amount of one on one time with Oliver than Felicity used to, be someone he can turn to and depend on personally, and eventually broach the idea of going on a date or full on getting back together.

Well this was mostly the writers giving KC one last (hah) favour with her head canon for Laurel's feelings and it wasn't written into the earlier episodes but you can see her playing it as hard as she can. Like with the "you catch em, I cook em!" scene. I wonder if that glare elevator scene where it's clear Laurel realises there's a proposal in he offing was actually scripted or done by KC because it never came up again and Laurel's there applauding when they actually get engaged. 

I don't know what was supposed to be going through her head. If she had lived they wouldn't have tried Lauriver again and that scene wouldn't have existed and she'd probably be mourning DD killing Quentin but as it stands, her head would have been a bit of a mess when she realised Oliver was going to propose. That's why she managed to make LP Soullless!Sara almost killing Thea all about her and Oliver. And not about how idiotic it was to dump Sara into the pit 5 seconds after hearing about it with Nyssa who has lived next to it all her life, begging her not to. And how worried about Thea she is. And lets not forget about poor Sara who had to deal with it all. 

Longterm she can't have helped but hope when Olicity didn't immediately get back together that she and Oliver had a chance again. I don't think she was supposed to be the kind of person to be the other woman when they were together, but planning to watch your "love of my life" get married and have little archers and computer geniuses and be on his team long term.....yikes. Glutton for pain and punishment. When Olicity broke up and started dating other people whilst still on the team together, Felicity at least was actively trying to move on from the love of her life and ignore the ex engagement, even if it didn't work. Laurel didn't have a personal life at all after Tommy and Oliver, unless you count half hearted attempts with Blood, DA guy and Ted. 

I kind of wish they'd got a different actor that had better chemistry with KC and was able to stick around for Ted to see how that developed. Even though having seen the cartoons if not the comics it's weird to think of him as a DLL love interest. 

1 hour ago, Mellowyellow said:

I agree with you and I think this is why when Oliver reset the universe he dumped her ass on Tommy.

I thought the characters had chemistry and I'm glad E1LL got some happiness before her early death but Tommy was such a consolation prize for her whilst he was alive and an after thought after 2A, would Tommy being alive (and saving her) be enough to salvage what we saw on screen? Because I still need some things to have been the same and not completely changed like them being engaged before Oliver came home. Because you can be that would also have gotten disrupted in that case.

[lemotomato]

I posted this on twitter, but if people here want to play, I made a tournament bracket of Olicity scenes. 

Here are links to the scenes if you want a refresher 😊 It was pretty difficult to choose just 32 to start with. With the exception of season 8, there were so many to pick from.

301 First date
103 Oliver and Felicity meet

309 I love you
112 Felicity gives Oliver the notebook

320 First time
122 Very platonic circumstances

323 Drive into the sunset
117 Oliver finds Felicity after Helena attacks

206 Because of the life I lead
707 Slabside reunion kiss

207 There was no choice to make
708 Reunion sex

209 Felicity helps Oliver put on his mask for the first time
709 You will always be the love of my life

223 He took the wrong woman
722 Bigger than the universe

603 Apartment key+kiss
801 It's supposed to be red

604 Hallway dessert
802 Oliver puts ring back on

Earth X Crossover Reunion hug/kiss
810 Reunion hug/kiss

609 Wedding reception
618 I'm glue, baby

401 Ivytown life
509 I do believe in magic

406 Ying-yang kiss
522 Oliver's birthday party

409 Proposal
520 Bunker sex

416 You are my always
519 Oliver confronts Felicity about Helix

Edited March 27, 2020 by lemotomato

[way2interested]

I got 722 (down from 618 vs 722).

[lemotomato]

44 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I got 722 (down from 618 vs 722).

Endgame across universes!

Edited March 28, 2020 by lemotomato

[Featherhat]

Hmm, I love all of them. I was just on the Flash board saying I don't need a couple to be epic, meant to be soulmates and that's entirely true but they do make it very tempting with 7x22. 

First meeting in 1x03 otherwise none of the others would have happened. Random scene that turned into a meet cute turned into literally forever. 

[insomniadreams88]

Down to 810 vs 722, going to have to go with 810. 

[Mellowyellow]

618 vs 709 

With 709 "You will always be the love of my life" taking the win

[tv echo]

Now that I've finished posting my transcriptions from all Arrow episodes as part of my personal retrospective (unless MG tweets more script pages), I thought I'd start posting my collection of video clips of special, edited or deleted Arrow scenes in the appropriate episode threads (fyi, I did not collect all of the deleted scenes, just the ones that caught my attention).

Edited April 20, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

This is kinda fun...

what olicity phase are you?
https://uquiz.com/quiz/EF18n3/what-olicity-phase-are-you?p=412721

Quote

Your Result:

immortal olicity
who else can say their ship's love is bigger than the freaking universe and that they became immortal beings that'll be together forever in their little piece of the multiverse? oliver and felicity endured everything that life threw at them and they never stopped believing in and loving each other ❤️

Edited April 27, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

#FlashBackThursday - these SA and EBR interviews are old (from 2012 and 2013), but they're new to me, so maybe they're new to some of you as well...

Stephen Amell talks Oliver's threats and relationships on 'Arrow'
Danielle Turchiano  Jul. 29, 2012

-- SA: "When we first started discussing Oliver and Laurel, Katie and I discussed the back story. And then when we were prepping for the episode with David Nutter, who directed the pilot, Laurel was really going after me - Katie as Laurel was really going after me in the first scene where we chat, where she says, 'you know, I couldn't grieve, I couldn't do this, because my sister was dead. and that's your fault,' just really giving it to me. And David said, 'Katie, I want you to pull it back a little bit.' She said, 'Why?' And he said, 'Because the opposite of love is not hate, it's apathy. And Laurel is not indifferent towards Oliver. She hates him. At the moment.' And there's so many levels of irony because, right now, Oliver is actually the person that she always wanted him to be. And yet, because he's trying to protect her, he is presenting the very worst version of himself. What we're going to find in the coming episodes is, she's too perspective - she's too perceptive to not realize that he's putting on a little bit of a show. And she's going to say to him, you think you're fooling everybody, but you're not fooling me. She doesn't know what's going on yet. I mean, she can't conceive that he's a vigilante fighting crime as yet and that would be a bridge too far, I think, but she does know that something is amiss and that for the time being at the very least will keep her intrigued. ... I've only read till episode 3."

-- On when he thinks Black Canary will make an appearance, SA: "I'm going to steal - I'm going to steal Andrew Kreisberg's line. He said something to the effect of, sooner than you might expect, but not as soon as you think. ... I have no idea."

Stephen Amell compares 'Arrow' relationships to 'The Good Son' & stunts to 'Mission Impossible'
Danielle Turchiano  Sep. 8, 2012

-- SA: "In the pilot, he closes the door. Um, the door gets open again, but that's because they have stuff to deal with. Whether or not that leads to romance in the future is still very much in doubt." 
Reporter: "How much do you feel like it shouldn't at that maybe this point in the story?" 
SA: "He's obviously not good for her. I mean, he's not really good for anybody. He's good for one thing right now and that is, you know, to follow his father's advice. All the other relationships in his life he's destroying, slowly and painfully and, you know, maybe unnecessarily. But he's obsessed."

Stephen Amell hopes for an 'Arrow' love triangle worthy of '90210' status
Danielle Turchiano  Oct. 10, 2012

-- SA: "Well, Oliver's saying he's not very good for her. But, um, one of the things that he's dealing with is, he's lonely. Um, there's not a lot of - there's not a lot of people for him to - well, there's - actually, there's nobody for him to talk to, um, save us introducing a volleyball [unintelligible words], which is another one of the reasons why, um - I think Greg talked about this as well - that somebody is going to learn his secret a lot sooner than we expect.* As - as for Laurel, he does know that he's not good for her, but at the same time it - it wouldn't - it would cease to be a compelling relationship if they didn't continue to cross paths... There's so much history there that - that, uh, we see - we see, uh, the two of us together. I think the fun thing about this show right now is the depth of each character. I mean, we see Tommy in the pilot as this swashbuckling, carefree individual. And as we move through the series, we get to see a real substance in him and that our friendship is important... As Oliver, if I'm being truthful, I know what I did to Laurel and I know how important Tommy's friendship is to me. And if the best way for both of them to be happy is with each other, then I wouldn't stand in the way. But that doesn't change how I feel. So that has all the makings of a really good love triangle... I mean, if we can get an eighth of the way [unintelligible words-I think something about a love triangle on 90210]... Oh, you're right, it did go both ways... Uh, then that's a good thing. Um, after we finished filming the pilot and after it had been picked up, Peter Roth had some people to his home to have a nice dinner and we screened a movie. And I was going through his office and my favorite thing was a big cast photo with a huge cake from the 200th episode of 90210. 200 episodes. Yeah."

(* I think he's referring to Diggle, who found out that Oliver was the hooded vigilante in 1x04, which aired on Oct. 31, 2012.)

Checking in with Emily Bett Rickards about Olicity 
Danielle Turchiano  Nov. 22, 2013 [after 207 (State v. Queen) but before 208 (The Scientist)]

(This interview took place after Oliver told Felicity in episode 206 that, because of the life that he leads, he just thought it would be better to not be with someone that he could really care about.)
-- Reporter: "Okay, so last we left Oliver and Felicity, obviously we have to start with their relationship, um, she - it felt like they had an understanding, you know, that maybe she was a horizon type of potential -"
EBR: "Yeah. Like, maybe she was on his mind, but -"
Reporter: "But nowhere any time soon."
EBR: "Right."
Reporter: "Is that something that changes the way they work together, change the way she looks at him, reacts to him? Is she okay to maybe wait around?"
EBR: "I don't think she's going to wait around. I don't think that she - I think that she respects herself quite a bit, and she should. She's a very strong, independent woman. Um, every time I say that, I think of Destiny's Child... She isn't going to wait. Um, I don't want her to be a wet blanket... I think she's stronger than that. She's definitely smarter than that. She's lovable. Um, whether she's, you know, part of a horizon, a distant future, a distant star, or something for Oliver, like, he's either got to make a decision and do something about it or, you know, we're gonna have to - you know, or it's gonna switch and, you know, Season 3, hopefully, you know, fingers crossed, maybe they can work on it then. But it's either gotta happen or something else is gonna happen. Like, I'm not just gonna wait."
Reporter: "So it doesn't necessarily change the way she works with him?"
EBR: "I don't think so. I mean, the thing is, is if they got - that's kind of the worry, though, that, if they did get together, that would change the way they work together. I mean, that's the other side of it, is, you know, when you're friends with somebody and you make it into a loving relationship, you're like in a relationship, man, that could really screw stuff over."

-- Reporter: "So in episode 208 that we have coming up, Moira obviously is out of jail, they throw a party for her, there's a little bit more, I feel, Felicity involved in Oliver's world, not Arrow's world, Oliver's world, too. What does she think of Moira, the family, the situation?"
EBR: "I think she's interested in like sort of - their family, like, everyone in their family is very, very smart. Um, they have to be, they're business geniuses. I mean, they have a huge -  even having Walter Steele and - they just have massive, um, business smarts. And I think like, getting into his world a little bit and seeing how wealthy and just sort of being in that - it's very strange for somebody who, you know, who clearly isn't a billionaire and walks into somebody's house and it's like a mansion and you're like, okay, I know this is how you live, but I think it's always a little shocking for her. So it's just like, man, the chandelier, though. Sorry, what was that? Right? ... And yeah, we do get to see her sort of more in Oliver's world."

-- Reporter: "You said she's not just gonna sit around and wait for Oliver. Is there potential there with Barry maybe?"
EBR: "Yeah, there is, I think... Well, they are similar. They're both really, really smart. And I've said this before, it's like the wanting of getting to know someone that's sort of surprising for her, because she doesn't want to get to know a lot of people. There's not a lot of people who can keep up with her. Um, she's fast, she's awkward, and she's really smart. There's not a lot of people like that. Barry is pretty much the male version of that. So I think that's intriguing. And whether or not she's like going to get into a romantic relationship with him, at least she's intrigued. It shows that she's not like numbed to everyone. You know what I mean?"
Reporter: "So pitch for all of the Olicity fans why they have to give Barry a chance?"
EBR: "'Cause the scenes are really fun. Having two people that smart, that awkward. And they're both really real. You know?"

Emily Bett Rickards talks about 'Arrow' post-Barry
Danielle Turchiano  Dec. 4, 2013 [airdate of 208 (The Scientist)]

-- Reporter: "Last couple of episodes, she's gotten into a lot of trouble. I mean, she tries to help but taken captive, you know, kidnapped her. How as that - how was that affecting her? Do we start to see that manifest itself, that it does start to worry her, take a toll on her?"
EBR: "I think this is kind of what I've sort of decided, watching from an audience point of view of Felicity, is that if Oliver cracks, then she's going to break. I think there's stability in the - Oliver has this sort of like shield, sort of like a method to his madness sort of thing, you know... He's clearly not stable, but he's very secure in his instability. And I think that she sort of - she's not like that. But if he cracks, she's going to go A.W.O.L. I think that, you know, it's very surprising that she - she's clearly, you know - she's not, uh, you know, turning to booze or drugs, or like - she's not having nightmares at night, because she's clearly showing up and on her game. But I think it'll be - it's a very fragile, you know, all it needs is a trigger, you know?"
Reporter: "I mean, the show's called Arrow, so I can't imagine he's going to crack. So I think she's going to be okay for a little while."
EBR: "She'll be okay, but it's just really interesting, like, psychologically, like, why is she, you know, how is she dealing with that? How is she sleeping at night? Why is she not having night terrors? ... How does she show up at work and not be distracted, um, you know, from having like nightmares?"

-- Reporter: "Do you see Barry as a character who maybe she could bounce some of this stuff off of, like, the stuff that gets tough? I mean, he obviously has such a love for the world and wants to know so much about Arrow... Can she maybe help him handle some of the realities?"
EBR: "I really hope so... I mean, he would definitely be a book to fill up with the things she needs to talk about. But, at the same time, I don't know if Felicity feels that it's right to talk to anybody but to Oliver, because there's this sort of understanding, like, you can come to me if you need to, but also the not talking about it is probably the best part. It's like - it's like when you go to work and you come home, and someone is like, doesn't ask you how work was, but they - you both know that you both went to work. It's like one of those."

-- Reporter: "Now obviously at the end of [208], there's a big, big decision basically by Felicity to say, we need to bring somebody else in. How does that affect things, because she's taking the control in a lot of ways away from Oliver? I mean, it's for Oliver's good, but he's been so secretive and - and doesn't like it when... and he doesn't like it when people know. And now you have this kid who he doesn't really trust."
EBR: "Well, I think that he's gonna be upset... She made a decision. She saved his life. That's it. That's all that matters... When it comes down to that, the only thing she cares about - I mean, he shot the Count. Game over for that. She saved his life. She had to tell his secret to do it. But that we're all gonna make sacrifices. This whole show is about sacrifices. The whole show's about masks and transformation and sacrifices and like, you know, security, really trying to be secure."'
Reporter: "And abs, let's face it."
EBR: "And abs. A lotta, lotta abs. And biceps. Um, so - there was no choice. Like, what Oliver says at the end, um, you know, State versus Queen, 'there was no choice to make.' If he's going to get testy with it, there was no choice to make."
Reporter: "But he does get testy about it, I will assume."
EBR: "I think it'll sit there. I think it's going to sit there. I think it's going to be like, you told one more person."
Reporter: "Can Barry be trusted with the secret?"
EBR: "I trust him... I don't know."
Reporter: "But is Felicity a good enough judge of character?"
EBR: "Felicity is probably the best judge of character on the show."

-- Reporter: "Obviously, Barry being introduced into this world and spinning off on his own, and Felicity having a connection with him, do you feel like - have there been conversations - do you want there to be conversations about you maybe going back and forth?"
EBR: "That would be really fun for me. It would probably be really fun for Felicity. I don't know where the story's going, so I don't really, you know, I don't really want to impose... I wouldn't want to sacrifice a storyline just because I want to be in it. But yes, I would love to be in the show... Um, I think that would be cool. I don't - there's been nothing guaranteed. I mean, I haven't talked to any producers, [unintelligible word] writer or anything like that. Everyone keeps asking me... Well, I don't know, I don't know. I mean, I hope."
Reporter: "And also because the interactions have been with, um, mostly with Felicity, for him. And usually, you know, you go into a spinoff and he comes with people. So -"
EBR: "I think that people are going to really like their interactions. They might be waiting, like, they might sort of like to see how everyone reacts, because you guys have a lot of say. I mean, the only reason I'm on the show is 'cause the fan reaction."
Reporter: "Well, you were cast before -"
EBR: "Yeah, but I was only a one day-er."
Reporter: "No, but I mean, like, you were cast first. And then people reacted well."

Edited May 28, 2020 by tv echo

[tv echo]

In honor of International Kissing Day, also known as World Kiss Day (July 6)...

Edited July 6, 2020 by tv echo

[Featherhat]

On 5/28/2020 at 4:18 PM, tv echo said:

Reporter: "You said she's not just gonna sit around and wait for Oliver. Is there potential there with Barry maybe?"
EBR: "Yeah, there is, I think... Well, they are similar. They're both really, really smart. And I've said this before, it's like the wanting of getting to know someone that's sort of surprising for her, because she doesn't want to get to know a lot of people. There's not a lot of people who can keep up with her

So I was randomly watching an episode of NCIS:LA late yesterday and in a tired haze ended up thinking that Nell and Beale were kind of like a real world (very ish I know) version of early Barry/Felicity and that's kind of the type of relationship people would have been expecting Felicity to be in on the show, and there's where "she's just tech support how dare she be the main love interest for the lead!" partly comes from, beyond comics, they were expecting a beta and dorky type guy if she got anyone at all. Olicity completely upset expectations on all levels.

Looking at those old interviews again:

On 5/28/2020 at 4:18 PM, tv echo said:

Laurel was really going after me - Katie as Laurel was really going after me in the first scene where we chat, where she says, 'you know, I couldn't grieve, I couldn't do this, because my sister was dead. and that's your fault,' just really giving it to me. And David said, 'Katie, I want you to pull it back a little bit.' She said, 'Why?' And he said, 'Because the opposite of love is not hate, it's apathy. And Laurel is not indifferent towards Oliver. She hates him. At the moment.'

Ok, I don't get this. KC needed to pull it back after going for it *because* apathy is the opposite of love? If she was really going for it (which she did) why did he want her to pull it back and be less hate filled in that case? Does he mean she was supposed to play the layers so we see the love there as well? I mean I completely believed Laurel hated him in that moment, and I think it was called for after what happened. The actual problem is that they had no chemistry in fight scenes or in the scenes where they were supposed to bond/still be  in the same episode. And the last part was also part of the problem. 

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

Ok, I don't get this. KC needed to pull it back after going for it *because* apathy is the opposite of love? If she was really going for it (which she did) why did he want her to pull it back and be less hate filled in that case? Does he mean she was supposed to play the layers so we see the love there as well? I mean I completely believed Laurel hated him in that moment, and I think it was called for after what happened. The actual problem is that they had no chemistry in fight scenes or in the scenes where they were supposed to bond/still be  in the same episode. And the last part was also part of the problem. 

Yeah, his reasoning for telling her to pull back makes absolutely no sense. 

And I also believed she actually hated him. Like legit, rage-filled, burning hatred, and not the fun kind where there's some sizzling attraction underneath and you just know they want to bang it all out. Granted, it would've been difficult to play that because there was an allegedly dead sister in the mix (although a sister on the periphery is a feature not a bug of Oliver and Lance girls' relationships). Yet another way they set Lauriver up to fail with a backstory that should've been thrown in that garbage can (but I am also glad they didn't do that, LOL).

[scarynikki12]

The only thing I can think of is that maybe he wanted Laurel to be angry when we first meet her at CNRI, then to wear a mask of indifference with Oliver in that conversation and finally to start opening up later at the party? That would hit the angry and apathetic thing. I don't know.

What I do know is that idea of the protagonist cheating on his girlfriend with her sister and then having said girlfriend be the love of his life and endgame relationship was a really bad one and it was smart to move away from that early on.

[insomniadreams88]

50 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

What I do know is that idea of the protagonist cheating on his girlfriend with her sister and then having said girlfriend be the love of his life and endgame relationship was a really bad one and it was smart to move away from that early on.

But Sara could have given the toast at their wedding reception. “I know the bride and groom quite well. The bride’s my sister, and I’m sure everyone remembers what happened between me and the groom ... No? Didn’t see it on the news?” 

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

What I do know is that idea of the protagonist cheating on his girlfriend with her sister and then having said girlfriend be the love of his life and endgame relationship was a really bad one and it was smart to move away from that early on.

I watched the first 6 episodes of season 1 when they aired (gave up on the show after that and came back mid season 2), and I was certain that they would somehow walk back the backstory of Oliver cheating on LL with Sara. Have it be a misunderstanding and Oliver just let LL believe it to keep her at a distance, until it was time for them to get together and then she would find out it didn't happen and there wouldn't be any more obstacles between them. Instead, the show went in the opposite direction and added Tommy dying, Sara coming back and dating Oliver again, and a secret kid conceived when Oliver was cheating on Laurel. Yikes.

[Trini]

5 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

What I do know is that idea of the protagonist cheating on his girlfriend with her sister and then having said girlfriend be the love of his life and endgame relationship was a really bad one and it was smart to move away from that early on.

Yeah, not great. However, I don't think it was an insurmountable obstacle if they really wanted Oliver and Laurel to be together. Sara probably would have had to stay dead, though.

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Yeah, not great. However, I don't think it was an insurmountable obstacle if they really wanted Oliver and Laurel to be together. Sara probably would have had to stay dead, though.

According to MG recently they started discussing Sara being alive right after the pilot. Although we know they went through several versions of that, including Ravager. They could have brought her back and settled that obstacle, although Oliver would never have slept with her again in that scenario but they actually started moving away from Lauriver very early on and they certainly cared a lot more about Sara than Laurel in S2. In TV I don't think anything is insurmountable but they also completely gave up because of the anti chemistry and got rid of/reimagined all their pre show plotlines to focus on what actual worked. 

I guess David Nutter wanted to see the layers maybe so we see this erm "sizzle", but KC can't play them (and couldn't do so in the context of a redemption arc either). Apathy doesn't work well in the context of the 180 after a minute of talking about Sara later. 

I used to keep telling myself that TVD was extremely popular and that was one of the reasons why they were so sure this convoluted toxic backstory would work, as well as adding in the best friends triangle SA is promoting up there. But it just doesn't work when you change it to F/M/F and the context to a more earnest, redemptive show among everything else.  

[statsgirl]

On paper, it would make sense that Laurel is furious at Oliver when she first sees him, and then calms down and by the party is more interested in hearing him out.

My guess is that either SA is conflating that scene and the "apathy is the opposite of love" with another time occasion that David Nutter said it because I've read SA talk about Nutter saying that before, or Nutter was trying to pull KC back on the intensity because this was only the pilot episode and there was a long way to go before Oliver and Laurel got together.  It's also possible that he had been talking to the EPs and they were already thinking that Oliver/Laurel wasn't going to work out on the show and didn't want to make too much of it in case they did swerve away later.

20 hours ago, Featherhat said:

So I was randomly watching an episode of NCIS:LA late yesterday and in a tired haze ended up thinking that Nell and Beale were kind of like a real world (very ish I know) version of early Barry/Felicity and that's kind of the type of relationship people would have been expecting Felicity to be in on the show, and there's where "she's just tech support how dare she be the main love interest for the lead!" partly comes from, beyond comics, they were expecting a beta and dorky type guy if she got anyone at all. Olicity completely upset expectations on all levels.

Would they still have approved after Barry got his powers?  I doubt it.

Like Garcia on Criminal Minds. It is okay for the geeky girl to get a geeky guy, but not the hero.

[Featherhat]

18 hours ago, statsgirl said:

It's also possible that he had been talking to the EPs and they were already thinking that Oliver/Laurel wasn't going to work out on the show and didn't want to make too much of it in case they did swerve away later.

That's the rumour but I've never known how seriously to take it. The EPs realizing two pretty people together won't work in this case during the pilot that is. It makes sense with the idea that when they saw EBR they immediately made her recurring and put her on the path to joining the mystery/team with the investigation from Walter.

 Saying "and Laurel isn't indifferent to Oliver" doesn't make sense in terms of pulling it back but it might in terms of "we've got a whole 5 year plan with these two, don't vent everything at him right now". 

Someone here had the idea that Laurel should maybe start the pilot attempting to be apathetic or even forgiving towards him, finally losing her shit at him in the party scene and then start to go from there in eps 2+ rather than flip flop several times in the first two episodes alone, and that seems like a better idea, showing two different sides to Laurel without the whiplash. Although there was still the whiplash with the Hood.

18 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Would they still have approved after Barry got his powers?  I doubt it.

Like Garcia on Criminal Minds. It is okay for the geeky girl to get a geeky guy, but not the hero.

I suspect if Barry had become Smallville's Ollie Queen to Oliver's Smallville Clark as it were, there would still have been a push to cast an Iris for him, like people kept asking when Sue Dibney was coming for Ralph, but it might not have been as bad as it got in some quarters because secondary hero.

But I suspect there would have been a push to give her a geek or a Billy not Barry. It's funny I know it wasn't a new revelation, but I've watched FitzSimmons a lot this break/lockdown trying to get into AoS again but they didn't strike me as "this is the mould people wanted/expected for Felicity" in the same way LA did.

 

ETA: Also I guess this is the thread to talk about it. The question of the producers being afraid of Olicity fans "bullying" or worried about the potential popularity of other/potential ships as a reason "Oliver doesn't interact with any other female apart from Felicity in S6/7" has come up in a few places over the last few months.

Firstly, half the women he did interact with in earlier seasons: Laurel, Helena, KcKenna, Felicity, Sara, Isobel, Shado, Tiana were hired as love interests or potential love interests (seriously there's a reason Summer Glau was hired and not a woman in her 40s/50s). Once he got married there was no reason to write in these characters anymore. 

Secondly they killed off or wrote off his mother and sister for one reason or another so that was out. There were also no flashbacks so no need for a flashback girlfriend/mother figure. 

In S6 he interacted with Felicity, Dinah, Thea, Nyssa, Raisa, Watson, Jean Loring, Alena. Pollard, Lyla and a few day players and crossovers. In S7 E2 Laurel, Dinah, Emiko, Talia, Pollard, Alena, Lyla and day players and crossovers. Not huge amounts but take out his family and potential love interests and it's not vastly different from early seasons on a very male dominated show. S3 Felicity, Sara, Laurel, Nyssa, Thea, Tatsu, Cupid, Lyla, Waller, China White, not very different at all. 

Maybe "Oliver doesn't talk to women apart from Felicity anymore" is code for "I'm annoyed he wasn't the one spearheading Black Siren's redemption and falling in love with her?" or "she should be growing emotionally close to Dinah even though they're just work colleagues who don't like each other much after S6?" Because he and Dinah had a lot of exposition together in S7. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Featherhat

[tv echo]

FYI - I stumbled across this 2016 graduate thesis, which included three sections on Arrow shipping...

"Go Write Your Own Story: An exploration of online fan fiction and authorship through the themes of authority, conflict and legitimacy"
Thesis presented by Gemma Bothe for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy of The University of Western Australia, School of Social Sciences, Disciplines of Anthropology & Sociology, and Media & Communication 
2016
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2cc4/b2b3eab73940a1b2ff1b6522a1fe1632d958.pdf

Shipping in Arrow
(Pages 198-200 of thesis, or 207-209 of pdf doc)

Reading Olicity and Lauriver
(Pages 209-212 of thesis, or 218-221 of pdf doc)

Olicity v Lauriver
(Pages 215-217 of thesis, or 224-226 of pdf doc)

Edited August 10, 2020 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

On 8/10/2020 at 12:54 PM, tv echo said:

FYI - I stumbled across this 2016 graduate thesis, which included three sections on Arrow shipping...

"Go Write Your Own Story: An exploration of online fan fiction and authorship through the themes of authority, conflict and legitimacy"
Thesis presented by Gemma Bothe for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy of The University of Western Australia, School of Social Sciences, Disciplines of Anthropology & Sociology, and Media & Communication 
2016

That is an impressive and well-researched thesis. She did a good job of keeping a personal bias out.

#AcademicGoals

[tv echo]

Felicity and Olicity got dragged into this discussion in the comments section to this article...

Shantel VanSanten Opens Up About Truncated Flash Run: 'The Showrunner Put Me on a Train All of a Sudden'
Matt Webb Mitovich    Oct. 13, 2020
https://tvline.com/2020/10/13/shantel-vansanten-the-flash-season-2-cut-short-patty/ 

Quote

Trish says:
October 13, 2020 at 11:35 AM
I actually really liked Patty’s arc. She was a bit too much of a Felicity clone at the beginning, but she brought a lightness that the show really started missing after she left.
*  *  *
Tasaman1 says:
October 13, 2020 at 12:34 PM
I agree. And While I understand Shantel’s point about comic book cornerstones, there are rare instances where chemistry between two characters on a tv show necessitates a deviation from source material. One prime example of this was Olicity. Ignoring the kind of overzealous stuff that plagued the later seasons of Arrow, that was a situation where Stephen Amell had more chemistry with Emily Bett Rickards, than he did with Katie Cassidy, and despite the fact that Oliver and Black Canary are romantically linked in the comics, the writers did not hesitate to pivot away from that cornerstone and in fact one could argue they pivoted a bit too hard
*  *  *
Anya says:
October 13, 2020 at 12:48 PM
But SVS and Gustin didn’t have that great chemistry that there was an overwhelming number of people who thought they should permanently change the love story. Some people think they have better chemistry than Gustin and Patton, while others think Gustin and Patton have far better chemistry. With Arrow, I do think at least at the beginning there was an overwhelming response to Amell and EBR’s chemistry. But it led to the horrible treatment of Black Canary, because the show realized that no matter what the Oliver/Felicity romance could not hold up as long as Laurel was on the show, so they took drastic measures. It’s a lot more complicated for these shows, therefore, to simply “change course romantically.”

And re Arrow, yes part of it was chemistry, but Amell was also very much open to changing course right from the beginning, as was Guggenheim. EBR being introduced as early as she was added to that. Whereas, Gustin was very opposed to diverting from Barry and Iris, and the showrunners were uninterested in changing course as well.
*  *  *
cruachan says:
October 13, 2020 at 1:21 PM
Perhaps they wanted to avoid the backlash that Arrow got, but it’s brought it’s own problems with constantly having to find ways to include Iris in fights that she’s not equipped to be in. It was less of an issue at the time Felicity was introduced in Arrow because the show was grounded at that point, there weren’t powered villains.

So often with “love interest” (really hate that phrase) characters I think of Missy Pyle’s line in Josie and the Pussycats. I’m here because I was in the comics. Sometimes it feels like that, they’re there because of the source material without much thought to how they’re used, because they have to use actors who have a contract.
*  *  *
cruachan says:
October 13, 2020 at 3:53 PM
TBH that was an early trope on the Arrowverse for any girl who wasn’t the perceived endgame for the character. Barry treated Linda Park pretty poorly too, and same with Oliver when he dated McKenna Hall or Susan Williams.

.It’s not a new trope either, Chuck always showed the titular character to be a pretty standup guy who treated women well, until his relationship with Hannah who he led on, slept with and then promptly broke up with.
*  *  *
Kayce says:
October 14, 2020 at 5:12 AM
I felt her character was so forced. A discount Felicity Smoak. I was annoyed the focused on her and Barry’s boring romance rather than Wally. Sucks about AJK’s behavior but the show got SO much better in 2B when she left!

Edited October 15, 2020 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

7 hours ago, tv echo said:

“But it led to the horrible treatment of Black Canary, because the show realized that no matter what the Oliver/Felicity romance could not hold up as long as Laurel was on the show, so they took drastic measures”

Olicity was declared the endgame ship a whole season before Laurel 1 got killed off, got engaged while Laurel 1 was still alive, and got married after Laurel 2 got brought back as a regular.  It’s absurd that people still insist she was killed off for a ship.

Edited October 14, 2020 by lemotomato

[Featherhat]

Killed for the ship gives them a side to blame and a "legitimate" reason to hate Olicity "see they killed one of the best comic book heroines for a stupid romance!" It's all stupid fangirl shippers with their tumblrs fault. Girls ruin everything. I've had people who have never watched a second of Arrow parrot this to me as well. Of course all the "Diaz should kill Felicity because it makes total sense for the story" or "Slade still has to keep his promise!" is completely different see. It would mean great growth for Oliver, no that wouldn't be text book fridging at all. 🙄 Seriously some people really don't get that the point of villains is to be defeated before they can kill everyone. 

It's easier than having to admit that the writers hadn't known what to do with the character since she was dropped from the LI role and nearly lost the BC role to Sara full time. Or even worse that they were starting to write away from the Lauriver relationship in S1. That she was never really Dinah Lance from the comics. Olicity had broken up before she died and didn't get back together until a full season after her death. That Felicity told Laurel she loved her but Oliver literally said "why are you telling me this?" to her confession. In 5A there was barely any Olicity. But seriously I have no idea why Laurel is supposed to have been such a threat? I know Because Comics assumed that and many Olicity fans were paranoid about it but it's clear from the actual writing of 3+ that they had no intention of it and becoming friends again was part of tying up loose ends. 

And then they had E2 become best friend with Felicity. Ignoring some of the issues with the pacing etc she had more chemistry with EBR than the black hole of anti-chemistry with SA. 

On another note, I find discussions about Oliver apparently never speaking to women in later seasons gets paired with this "Laurel was killed for Olicity" argument. Apparently the writers are so scared of Olicity fans that they didn't let him even form a friendship with Dinah. And most of all never let him go anywhere near Black Siren. Those are the only two women who matter. The fact that he had an entire relationship with Susan which definitely wasn't meant to please Olicity fans seems to be ignored. Or the fact that WH left the show, there were no FB girlfriends and Oliver did in fact spend a lot of 6&7 with Watson, Dinah, Jean Loring, Pollard, Nyssa, Emiko etc but apart from Emiko they weren't emotional connections. And that almost everyone recurring female character between 20-35 did sleep with Oliver in S1&2 and that's WHY they were introduced. Once he was married there was no reason to have him mean beautiful young women and have emotional conversations with them so they could all take their clothes off. And even then they writers still played around with the gross evil Nazi pairing.

[Mellowyellow]

I thought the S2 poster pretty much sealed their fate.

When you suddenly shove your S1 leading lady into the back row and have the new cast member next to the lead, the writing is on the wall. That poster was screaming "New leading lady folks!!!!!!!"

People are so silly. Honestly this is akin to the people who thought Sheldon and Penny were going to get together on TBBT (seriously?????). Granted I would give the Penny/Sheldon shippers a tiny bit more credit because at least those two had a very cute relationship (albeit NOT romantic at all) which was a big part of the show until the very end.

I always felt like Laurel was a part of Oliver's past that he didn't particularly care to revisit. Lots of mistakes he was sorry for etc but he just didn't want to go back there at all. For me she had no relevance to him from mid S2 onwards. He had this whole other life and she was floating around somewhere. It still cracks me up that when he reset the universe he foisted her off onto Tommy and just walked back a bunch of stuff because he could. 

[lemotomato]

Even before the end of season 1, reporters were asking about Oliver and Felicity's relationship, and SA was talking about how pretty and smart and capable Felicity was. This interview was at Wondercon 2013, right before the final 3 episodes of the season and in the middle of the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy triangle ramping up.  SA, who almost always pushed the party line and promoted what's being shown on screen at the moment, was teasing about Olicity. Laurel was never an obstacle or challenge to Olicity as far as anyone working on the show was concerned (except maybe KC)

 

[lemotomato]

4 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I thought the S2 poster pretty much sealed their fate.

When you suddenly shove your S1 leading lady into the back row and have the new cast member next to the lead, the writing is on the wall. That poster was screaming "New leading lady folks!!!!!!!"

Even Matt M from TV Line wondered about LL/KC's placement in the poster when it came out:

"But it’s the staging of the next tier of costars that seemingly ranks Ollie’s gruff island buddy Slade Wilson (new series regular Manu Bennett) higher than his lithesome lady love Laurel (original cast member Katie Cassidy)."

Quote

I always felt like Laurel was a part of Oliver's past that he didn't particularly care to revisit. Lots of mistakes he was sorry for etc but he just didn't want to go back there at all. For me she had no relevance to him from mid S2 onwards. He had this whole other life and she was floating around somewhere. 

Like you said, they were leading completely different lives and were always hiding something from each other. That all we were ever shown of Oliver and Laurel's relationship, whether it was before the island when he treated her like crap (cheated and lied), or post-island, when he sidelined her and lied to her about who he was and what he was doing. Yet the characters were made to say stuff about how they were meant to be together (Helena, Tommy), how Oliver was better around Laurel (Moira), how Laurel knew Oliver "in her bones" (Oliver, Laurel). The Oliver/Laurel relationship was the worst case of "tell, not show" I've ever seen on TV. I think that SA, who had shown how much thought he put into the character and the show in the early seasons, saw that disconnect and played it out in a way that made sense to him, which was Oliver resolving his guilt for how he mistreated her and then moving on. 

[Featherhat]

9 hours ago, lemotomato said:

. Yet the characters were made to say stuff about how they were meant to be together (Helena, Tommy), how Oliver was better around Laurel (Moira), how Laurel knew Oliver "in her bones" (Oliver, Laurel). The Oliver/Laurel relationship was the worst case of "tell, not show" I've ever seen on TV. I think that SA, who had shown how much thought he put into the character and the show in the early seasons, saw that disconnect and played it out in a way that made sense to him, which was Oliver resolving his guilt for how he mistreated her and then moving on. 

It was definitely a terrible case of tell not show. I can't figure out why they did that narratively speaking, especially when they have the built in flashback structure to show them actually being a good couple or at least having fun together. But they didn't introduce Laurel into the FBs until 1B by which time they were probably planning on dismantling the pairing and the scenes were deliberately terrible - Oliver visibly wanting to do anything but move in and telling Sara to circle the block which Laurel gave him the POD. Those scenes don't happen by accident. They didn't even have a scene of Laurel telling Oliver she knows he's better than partying and dropping out of school or whatever and that should have been a no-brainer for "I know you in my bones" proof. 

I can fanwank why Moira liked Laurel but we never saw it, Helena had her own issues with True Love but there's no reason for Tommy to think they're "always and forever" when he was Oliver's cheating wing man, unless he saw them always getting back together after a break up and his own insecurities. Even Sara doesn't make sense saying that when she knew he was a serial cheat, even if she's disregarding herself. 

All this is one reason I think they were half hearted on the relationship right away because there were potential narrative "fixes" if they wanted. But they continued on tell not show even though the relationship badly needed exploring  (if they wanted it to work anyway) because you can't have a guy sleep with someone's sister and rely on the audience going "oh yeah epic soul mate journey back to each other" with nothing else there apart from all the other characters and they themselves acting like it's inevitable. The only thing that makes sense is if they looked at the lack of chemistry and the reviews and immediately noped. Although I suppose this isn't the only time they thought they were writing something completely different. 

[tv echo]

Arrow: 10 Underrated Olicity Moments That Aren't Talked About Enough
BY HAYLEY TAYLOR   JUNE 14, 2021
https://screenrant.com/arrow-underrated-best-oliver-felicity-olicity-moments/ 

Quote

At first, Felicity and Oliver seemed like an unlikely pair. However, as time went on, fans got to see what a perfect match they could be. Over the show's eight seasons, Oliver and Felicity's love story became central to the plot, with every scene they shared proving to be pivotal to their relationship.
*  *  *
10/10 I Do Believe In Magic
...
Felicity says that her magic fingers are more powerful than Google's search engine. She awkwardly states that she doesn't believe in magic and drops her pen. Oliver picks it up and hands it to her, saying that he does believe in magic. It's likely this scene where the couple started to feel a connection between each other.
*  *  *
9/10  Thank You For Always Being By My Side
*  *  *
However, with the help of Oliver, Felicity does realize that she can be and still is a hero. She shows Oliver a picture of her goth-self in college, and they talk about how much they have changed. Felicity thanks Oliver for always being by her side, and he responds that there's no place he would rather be. This moment is important for the couple, showing how both characters have grown by knowing each other.

8/10  Pancakes And Parenting
*  *  *
7/10  Like A Hero
*  *  *
Before Barry Allen returns to Central City, he leaves Oliver a mask. Felicity is the one who puts the mask on him for the very first time. This is a huge moment for the superhero, so it's a big deal that he allows Felicity to do the honors. Oliver, always caring what she thinks, asks her how the mask looks. Felicity responds, "Like a hero."

6/10  The Salamander[sic] Ladder Lesson
...
Oliver teaches Felicity how to do a chin-up on his famous salamander ladder. Felicity struggles, so Oliver helps her down, and the couple has a steamy moment. This fun bonding moment shows that the couple still loves one another. Additionally, it was a much-needed break from their relationship drama.

5/10  You’re Going To Hawk Me About This Until I Say Yes, Aren't You?
*  *  *
4/10  The First Glance
...
Oliver and Felicity first meet in her office. He walks in when she has a red pen in her mouth, and their chemistry is undeniable from the start. However, a significant moment for the couple actually happened before this in "The Return."
*  *  *
3/10  You Have Failed This Omelet
*  *  *
2/10  We Found Ourselves In Each Other
...
Both aren't used to being in a long-lasting relationship. But, Felicity states that they will be okay, as they found themselves in each other. Oliver and Felicity kiss in a ying-yang position, which symbolizes how they complete each other.

1/10  Fight To Live
...
Before Oliver confronts the powerful Ra's al Ghul, Felicity tells him, "Don't fight to die, fight to live." This scene isn't discussed much. However, it's monumental because Felicity's words break through to Oliver. She convinces him that he deserves happiness. It also leads the couple to get together officially.

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

On 6/16/2021 at 12:27 PM, tv echo said:

6/10  The Salamander[sic] Ladder Lesson
...
Oliver teaches Felicity how to do a chin-up on his famous salamander ladder.

Salamander ladder?

[EmeraldArcher]

Happy Anniversary, Olicity & WestAllen!

The double wedding happened on my 25th anniversary! ❤️

[lemotomato]

16 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

Happy Anniversary, Olicity & WestAllen!

The double wedding happened on my 25th anniversary! ❤️

Happy anniversary to you and Mr. Emeraldarcher! The big 3-0 next year 😄

[EmeraldArcher]

On 11/29/2021 at 12:15 AM, lemotomato said:

Happy anniversary to you and Mr. Emeraldarcher! The big 3-0 next year 😄

Thank you! We can’t believe how fast the decades have gone by.

Hope the Arrow family is all doing well! I really enjoyed being part of this community.❤️

[Featherhat]

I can't believe it's been four years since we were all desperately trying to dissect the double wedding rumours all summer. And then the spoiler photos came out. 

Despite the awkward set up in the first ep COEX really did become a pretty good Olicity story IMO and somewhat surprisingly they took most of the emotional arc along with Firestorm. And it's still the best crossover. 

[scarynikki12]

On tonight's Flash Barry gets killed and joins Spectre Oliver on Lian Yu. For only about three minutes, it's just for some quick conversation before returning to the action. They do a whole back and forth about the reestablished multiverse and at one point Barry points out how Oliver brought back all the people he loved. Oliver reponds by saying he didn't bring his father back. I think it just genuinely didn't occur to the writers of the episode but, yet again, we see how little Laurel mattered to Oliver. It is sad in its own way given her inability to move on but it's also making me laugh. I'm not claiming to be a good person here.

[Featherhat]

5 hours ago, legacyhero said:

However, Black Canary is the one that keeps getting new content. Fefe is the past. It had no lasting effect on the Green Archer myth. Keep Crying. Arrow is over for years and fangirls still thinks they mattered. pathetic. The comics still living while the show died.

Yeah Black Canary keeps getting new content, good for her. "Laurel" doesn't. None of the variations of her that get new projects are with KC or Arrow's version. Of course the comics version is still living. That was never in question even when Arrow/Olicity was at the height of it's popularity. That was never what most fans (at least here) had any objection to. It's that they disliked this TVD and toxicity version of "Laurel" and Oliver together and thought they had negative chemistry. But even in a lot of "new BC content" she and Oliver aren't in a relationship. 

I'm pretty content where "FeFe" ended up, even if it was not what I would have written. If she never comes up in any new variation of GA again that's more than fine because it was the character as played by EBR  that I liked and how she interacted with the rest of the cast. Played by someone else I may not have liked her. Just as I like BC played by JS and Caity Lotz but not by KC or mostly not by JH. I thought I was going to love KC originally but I didn't. I loved Arrow but I can be hit and miss on GA as a whole. I definitely don't demand that because Olicity were great in Arrow that it means they *have* to be together in all future versions. That was always an argument by fans of comics pairings more than show pairings. You know, just like I don't demand that all versions of Ray Palmer now always ends up with a version of Nora Darkh. 

Felicity has impacted other media though, there were plenty of "Felicity knock offs" that came though TV and a couple of movies where the creators either outright admitted they liked her or reviewers wrote a character "seems to borrow a lot from Arrow's Felicity Smoak". Not that quirky genius beautiful tech girl was uncommon before her but she was a popular example of it for nearly a decade. 

Also in terms of Arrow nothing takes away from EBR's achievement of shooting her first scenes on August 2nd 2012 as a local day player who worked at a pet shop and August 10th being announced as recurring for the rest of the season and then in Feb being announced as a series regular and by the next year being leading lady. That is truly spectacular and a one in a million leap that never happens. 

[legacyheroo]

6 hours ago, Featherhat said:

But even in a lot of "new BC content" she and Oliver aren't in a relationship. 

And who cares when Black Canary is with Green Arrow? Only the Olicity fandom believes that a woman's worth is determined by whose dick she can rode. Black Canary never needed a man to be someone. Fefe wouldn't even have been a hero if it wasn't for Oliver. Almost all of her stories revolve around Oliver. She barely exists by herself. Pathetic.

[legcyhero]

for the record: i'm not speaking about Lurel. that was a horrid actress and a horridly wrtten role.

but that still makes the idea that Fefe counts for anything in the Green Arrow mythos still laughable. the show doesnt matters at all. over and done.

[lemotomato]

23 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I'm pretty content where "FeFe" ended up, even if it was not what I would have written. If she never comes up in any new variation of GA again that's more than fine because it was the character as played by EBR  that I liked and how she interacted with the rest of the cast.

This, 100%. As far as I'm concerned, my interest in GA begins and ends with Arrow and that I have no interest in whatever happens in the comics or DC movies. I do find it amusing that the choices made by the show apparently still bothers people, even 3 years after it's over. 

[legacyy]

Yes, of course. Too bad I can't believe it. The little hysterics that the fandom do over a few throwaway lines tells something else. You still hasn't accepted that the blonde had no lasting effect whatsoever. The self-insert creator pet Mary Sue is over for good. The utter disrespect toward an actually strong character ended. Black Canary lives on. Felicity is over.