Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wonderwall]

She was seen at COH2 last year saying that Marc didn't agree with her headcanon about Oliver being the love of Laurel's life. If he didn't agree then it's not a far leap to say that she had requested for him to put it in there for him to finally acquiesce lol If she didn't push for it, it wouldn't have made it into the script. But ok! 

This is from reddit KC/LL stan central so I'm pretty sure they aren't lying about what she said at COH2:

Quote

Katie said she researched for the drug addict storyline to make it real #arrow #coh2

Katie viewers her blog as empowering women to make fashion choices. #COH2

Katie says Harper's Island was stressful. They didn't know who was the killer or who'd die until they got the scripts. #COH2

Katie enjoyed both Ruby and Laurel. She enjoyed Laurel having an arc. W Ruby it was only a season so no arc. #COH2

KC she believes LL lost he virginity to Oliver #COH2

Fan: how much was LL spiral in S2 was coz of T's death or coz O left her??? KC: She loved them both....O was her soulmate...

KC hopes that we will see more of Black Siren #COH2

KC believes O+L are soulmates, MG disagreed he said that L isn't the love of Oliver's life, KC believes they are coz of the comics. #COH2 [EDIT: MG believes in fanservice and he is an idiot]

Fan: how much was LL spiral in S2 was coz of T's death or coz O left her??? KC: She loved them both....O was her soulmate... #COH2

Fan asked KC had any last words to Sara, KC said she would have to think about it, something about understanding #COH2

Fan: Any other SL for LL that she didn't get to do? KC: more training with Oliver coz its in the comics, more scenes with Katrina Law #COH2

LOL this is so sad especially how she believes LL lost her virginity to Oliver... After she got Sara in trouble just so she could 'steal' Oliver away from her lmao

[wonderwall]

On 5/15/2016 at 0:02 PM, quarks said:

On 5/15/2016 at 9:23 AM, Primal Slayer said:

Exactly. The writers/MG/WM shouldn't have let SA/KC influence them that way. There is a reason why they are supposed to be in charge. Sometimes it works out like MM becoming Theas father instead of Olivers but they should see what can enhance their characters instead of holding them at a standstill.

Putting this in bold, capital letters to attempt to make my point as clear as possible here.

THIS IS NOT HOW TELEVISION WORKS.

First, the writers are not in charge. The network - or in Arrow's case, the networks - are. 

Second, absolutely writers listen to the actors. That doesn't mean that writers automatically agree with actors, but they listen. And very often, they take the actors' viewpoints or suggestions into consideration. And yes, if your lead actor comes to you suggesting a costume change, you listen. (And for the record, Arrow took Katie Cassidy's costume suggestions into account as well.) 

In fact, I'll go further: a screenwriter who doesn't listen to and work with actors will get fired. 

With that said, third, actors are hired to play what is in the script.

The script for season 3 was clear: Laurel had moved on. After two seasons of characters continuously reminding us how terrible Oliver and Laurel were together and how unlikely it would be for them to ever get together again, season 3 hooked up Laurel with a second post-Oliver love interest and then had Laurel say, in script, that she couldn't even remember why she'd fallen in love with Oliver in the first place. Season 3 also showed her making friends with Oliver's new love interest and turning to Nyssa, not Oliver, for emotional support and training.

Then, months after this was filmed, and while Arrow was setting up Oliver's planned proposal to Felicity, Katie Cassidy - in her own version - went to the showrunner and told him that Oliver was still the love of Laurel's life. 

Katie Cassidy is describing this as her input into the show and her character, and she's not wrong. But while I just said that writers absolutely should and must work with actors, it goes the other way as well - actors have to work with writers, directors and producers.  If you want to know why Katie Cassidy was fired, and not Willa Holland or David Ramsey or Paul Blackthorne or John Barrowman or Echo Kellum or EBR, forget conspiracy theories and the "it was the best choice for the story" and everything else. It's this.

The other regulars played what's in the script. Katie Cassidy, for whatever reasons, didn't. 

Also I do believe we've had this conversation before...

ALSO look here lol

On 5/15/2016 at 8:33 AM, Midnight Lullaby said:

So basically KC thinks like us that her input is the reason those lines were added.

[Primal Slayer]

So she thinks that may have been why the lines were written but doesn't say she requested the lines. Influence is a lot different and like I said back then The writers/MG/WM shouldn't have let SA/KC influence them that way. 

41 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

Just like we as fans knew she would be the one in the grave by piecing things together...it's pretty easy to speculate when you have pieces of information. If there is more evidence to support that she did indeed ask for it then the burden of proof is on the person who says she didn't to give proof of their opinion.

Speculation being the key word. Just as it was said "KC would NEVER step foot on a Berlanti set again and we'd never see her return to the show". Speculation but never flat out fact.

[formerlyfreedom]

Move along, please. Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and opinions.

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I don't think of Samantha as shady, just Stupid For Plot.  It never seemed like she wanted to deliberately hurt Oliver

I'll buy this.  Samantha's main experience with Oliver was him knocking her up and then his mother trying to buy her off.  I figure her "don't tell anyone else" condition was so that Oliver wouldn't bring his "slut-of-the-month/week/day" around William as a potential "stepmom" or otherwise expose William to his lifestyle.  Things changed once Samantha learned Oliver was the Green Arrow, which was also the first time William was kidnapped by one of Oliver's psychopathic enemies.  She actually got to meet Felicity and know her as a good, responsible person, so I can see her acting as she did on the island, encourage Felicity in her relationship with Oliver.  I still doubt she wants either of them in her or William's life because this is the second time he's been kidnapped by a psychopathic enemy of Oliver's and Samantha really doesn't want a threepeat.

[tangerine95]

I don't think the writers even thought through Samantha's dumb demands beyond we need it for plot reasons and she's a mother so whatever she says is the law.But to me it seemed her demands were a way to keep Oliver out of their lives and control how involved he is in William's life as much as possible.Her ultimatum conveniently makes sure that Oliver has no one to maybe tell him he has full rights to his kid and that he was actually the damaged party here because Samantha lied to him for years and never intended to tell the truth and he's seemingly indefinitely limited to once in a while visits as mom's friend so he's not even being a father after he found out.

Even as she's throwing Oliver's past in his face,she also said she knows how he changed so I'm guessing she could also know he's running for mayor and in a serious relationship.I mean if she didn't want William to meet Oliver's gf she could have said don't bring her to meet him yet instead of asking him to basically ruin his relationship by hiding and secretly visiting them.And the safety excuse falls apart because she literally allows Oliver to visit the kid even after Felicity publicly gets shot for being connected to Oliver.I'm sure they didn't intend for Samantha to seem manipulative but to me she really came across that way.

[leopardprint]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Samantha's main experience with Oliver was him knocking her up and then his mother trying to buy her off.

She was a full participant in both of these situations. She was one of his women. She knowingly slept with her friend's boyfriend. She took money from his mother in exchange for lying to him. She continued to lie to him after his mother died and then held what his mother did, without his knowledge, against him. She's a hypocrite of the worst sort in addition to what @tangerine95 has said above. 

(insert Laurel hypocrisy gif here) 

Of the three people involved in this stupid situation, Oliver is the least terrible even though he was so, incredibly stupid for listening to Samantha and not fighting for Felicity's place in his family. 

I think that's part of why I found the resolution to Oliver and Felicity's trust issues so unsatisfactory because they never addressed Oliver rolling over and shutting Felicity out because Samantha said so. 

[Morrigan2575]

I just sat here reading these last few posts going what are these people talking about?! Samantha was totally shady AF! She investigated Oliver behind his back, played Thea for a fool and....oh wait That was Susan!

Yeah, I literally confused the two characters for a good 10 minutes.  Sad ?

Edited July 2, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[leopardprint]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I just sat here reading these last few posts going what are these people talking about?! Samantha was totally shady AF! She investigated Oliver behind his bad, played Thea for a fool and....oh wait That was Susan!

Yeah, I literally confused the two characters for a good 10 minutes.  Sad ?

Oliver has too many questionable brunettes in his life. ?

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

 

I think that's part of why I found the resolution to Oliver and Felicity's trust issues so unsatisfactory because they never addressed Oliver rolling over and shutting Felicity out because Samantha said so. 

There's really no way to address it though, because not only was it dumb AF there is nothing about Oliver's character or personality or the facts of the situation that provides a reason, however poor, for Oliver to not tell Felicity. It's like a bad fanfic that gets ten comments that all say, "But Oliver wouldn't do that though." His actions can't be satisfactorily addressed because they don't make sense. If the writers had written Oliver to act in line with the way they had previously written him he would have told Felicity. 

Not only did they have to make Oliver out of character, but they had to make Felicity also act out of character in the original timeline in order to give Barry a reason to tell Oliver that he was distracted during the fight with Zoom because he and Felicity fought over William. Felicity might have tried to find out what was up with Oliver (in a less stalkers way), but she wouldn't have been that pissed off that he needed more than two seconds to absorb the new information before telling her. 

[leopardprint]

25 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Not only did they have to make Oliver out of character, but they had to make Felicity also act out of character in the original timeline in order to give Barry a reason to tell Oliver that he was distracted during the fight with Zoom because he and Felicity fought over William.

OMG, I forgot about Barry. Barry is truly the villain of Arrow. Ruining Olicity, erasing Baby Sara, bringing Black Siren back...

I agree with everything you said but I think an acknowledgement of her role and his mistake in listening to her would go a long way because even in 415 he was saying she was just trying to protect her son from Oliver's terrible self like it was a totally reasonable thing to ask and go along with. Erasing the Samantha of it all also makes it seem like the show is saying that Oliver would have lied to Felicity all on his own which seems to be even more OOC and makes less sense than Samantha requiring it even though ultimately it is Oliver's fault. 

Edited July 2, 2017 by leopardprint

[statsgirl]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

I'll buy this.  Samantha's main experience with Oliver was him knocking her up and then his mother trying to buy her off.  I figure her "don't tell anyone else" condition was so that Oliver wouldn't bring his "slut-of-the-month/week/day" around William as a potential "stepmom" or otherwise expose William to his lifestyle.

There's really no way to make Samantha look good though.  Back in the day, she knew Oliver as a cheating womanizer who a good mother would want to keep from her son. But then Samantha still slept with him, knowing he was in a relationship with her friend Laurel so her responsibility is as great. Granted playboy Oliver would probably have been a terrible father back then but Samantha agreed to Moira's plan of not even giving Oliver a chance, in exchange for two cheques of $1 million each (of which she only cashed one).

In present day, she either made no effort to get to know who Oliver is now and wais still assuming that he's doing the "slut-of-the-month/week/day" which  she really shouldn't have done (William was at an age when he would be wondering about his father -- what has Samantha been telling him?) or she didn't care that he was in a stable relationship and running for mayor, she didn't want him around and set it up that he would have to lie to his fiance or leave William alone.

And then in 5x23 she reminded me how awful she is when she was surprised that Felicity and Oliver weren't together.  What did you think was going to happen?   And she still takes zero responsibility for the break-up she set up.

5 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

.But to me it seemed her demands were a way to keep Oliver out of their lives and control how involved he is in William's life as much as possible.Her ultimatum conveniently makes sure that Oliver has no one to maybe tell him he has full rights to his kid and that he was actually the damaged party here because Samantha lied to him for years and never intended to tell the truth and he's seemingly indefinitely limited to once in a while visits as mom's friend so he's not even being a father after he found out.

, I agree that she wanted to keep Oliver out of William's life entirely, one way or another.  But Oliver gave in too easily.  With as much contact with the law as he had, not to mention access to a lawyer right there (Laurel), he should have fought for his rights to see William.

[johntfs]

29 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

In present day, she either made no effort to get to know who Oliver is now and wais still assuming that he's doing the "slut-of-the-month/week/day" which  she really shouldn't have done (William was at an age when he would be wondering about his father -- what has Samantha been telling him?) or she didn't care that he was in a stable relationship and running for mayor, she didn't want him around and set it up that he would have to lie to his fiance or leave William alone.

I think Samantha did care that Oliver was in a stable relationship and running for mayor - and that was part of the reason she insisted on secrecy.  Figure there were people invested in him becoming mayor and she didn't want to attract their attention as a potential scandal.  At that point Felicity was still running Palmertech as the CEO.  I know if I had a child by the fiance of someone that rich and powerful, I wouldn't want to attract her attention.  People who do that tend to die in "robberies gone wrong" or "car accidents."  Now, we all know that Felicity isn't like that, but Samantha didn't at that point.

 

39 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

And then in 5x23 she reminded me how awful she is when she was surprised that Felicity and Oliver weren't together.  What did you think was going to happen?   And she still takes zero responsibility for the break-up she set up.

It didn't seem like she was necessarily surprised that they weren't together.  However, she did notice there was clearly something still between them and she encouraged Felicity to take the risk and go for what made her happy.  Samantha never really had true ill-will for Oliver, she just wanted to keep herself and William out of the nastier, scarier parts of his life.

[bijoux]

20 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I think Samantha did care that Oliver was in a stable relationship and running for mayor - and that was part of the reason she insisted on secrecy.  Figure there were people invested in him becoming mayor and she didn't want to attract their attention as a potential scandal.  At that point Felicity was still running Palmertech as the CEO.  I know if I had a child by the fiance of someone that rich and powerful, I wouldn't want to attract her attention.  People who do that tend to die in "robberies gone wrong" or "car accidents."  Now, we all know that Felicity isn't like that, but Samantha didn't at that point.

Felicity was running a tech company, not a crime sindicate. And Samantha's previous experience with rich, scary women was with Moira, who bought her off with 2 million bucks, she didn't hire someone to kidnap and frighten Samantha. She saved those tactics for her loved ones. ?

As for Samantha on the island, that was just weird. Who gives a fuck about the state of Oliver and Felicity's relationship or lack thereof when your child is STILL missing? Those two are just people she hsn't seen in a year.

[Hiveminder]

6 hours ago, leopardprint said:

OMG, I forgot about Barry. Barry is truly the villain of Arrow. Ruining Olicity, erasing Baby Sara, bringing Black Siren back...

I agree with everything you said but I think an acknowledgement of her role and his mistake in listening to her would go a long way because even in 415 he was saying she was just trying to protect her son from Oliver's terrible self like it was a totally reasonable thing to ask and go along with. Erasing the Samantha of it all also makes it seem like the show is saying that Oliver would have lied to Felicity all on his own which seems to be even more OOC and makes less sense than Samantha requiring it even though ultimately it is Oliver's fault. 

I despise Samantha because she is a truly awful person and seems like an idiot. My point is that with or without her demands, Oliver not telling Felicity doesn't make sense so she can't be used to make any sense of it. 

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

 

It didn't seem like she was necessarily surprised that they weren't together.  However, she did notice there was clearly something still between them and she encouraged Felicity to take the risk and go for what made her happy.  Samantha never really had true ill-will for Oliver, she just wanted to keep herself and William out of the nastier, scarier parts of his life.

She told him their child died, kept the secret of William's existence from him for at least four years (I won't count the years everyone thought he was dead.), lied about not cashing his mother's check (There were two, and I'm not going to forget that writers.), tried to keep lieing after Oliver saw William and suspected the truth, told him that he couldn't see his son unless he lied to everyone he knew and loved (or who could tell him about his rights), and told him that he could never tell his son that Oliver was his father.

That is vindictive behavior. I can understand hesitation on her part, but trying to isolate Oliver from any advice and support he would have in dealing with this situation while simultaneously hampering the development of his relationship with his son is a shitty thing to do to both Oliver and William. How confused would William be by his mom's friend who only ever comes around to spend time with him. Who the hell is this guy? Why would William want to spend time with him and develop a relationship with him? When he grows up, is he going to invite mom's friend to his graduation, or wedding, or children's birthday parties? Will he go to his mom's friend for advice on girls, or his career, or life in general? Will he confide in his mom's friend about things he would normally go to his father about? The chances are slim. Samantha was effectively blockading Oliver from being any meaningful part of his son's life. She's an awful person, and if Oliver wasn't so frustratingly forgiving and unable to stand up for himself this behavior would have gotten her destroyed in court. 

[insomniadreams88]

2 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

I despise Samantha because she is a truly awful person and seems like an idiot.

Yep. I don't think I'll ever like her. And nothing will ever convince me she's the good person the show seems to think she is just because she had Oliver's child. 

There's also the fact that when William was kidnapped the first time, she didn't even contact Oliver. He contacted her after Darhk told him he had him. And hadn't somrthing like 2 days passed or something since he was taken? 

She should have been up to date on Oliver's life, which would have probably been easy with the internet, known that Felicity was shot and immediately wondered if someone found out about William being Oliver's son and took him and called the minute she realized he was missing. 

Are there any indications that Samantha ever tried to find out the kind of man Oliver is now versus before the island? I wonder if she wanted him to be that same man so she could feel justified (if that's the right word to use) in her behavior (keeping William from him, her ultimatum, etc.). 

6 hours ago, bijoux said:

As for Samantha on the island, that was just weird. Who gives a fuck about the state of Oliver and Felicity's relationship or lack thereof when your child is STILL missing? Those two are just people she hsn't seen in a year.

Don't forget. Samantha also thought it was a good idea to wait until they had gotten to the plane and then stay behind to search for her son wander around and get lost on the island if she had actually been able to stick with her plan. None of that made sense to me. 

[bijoux]

What the show thinks of Samantha isn't all that clear to me. I know what the EPs said, but why make the choice to make her Laurel's friend on her third appearance? That wasn't indicated in the flashback with Moira or the crossover episode, it wasn't some remnant from a flashback from an earlier season or anything. It's a nail in the coffin that had to have been hammered consciously. If she hadn't had a connection to Laurel, she could have been more sympathetic for hooking up with Oliver and getting pregnant as a result. Oh, she didn't know he had a grilfriend, he told her they'd split up, yada yada yada. As it stands, I can't help but think that everyone hated Laurel. Oliver, her sister and her friends. No way do I believe Samantha was the only one now.

However, Oliver telling Moira Samantha was a good person got infinitely funnier with that revelation.

[leopardprint]

23 minutes ago, bijoux said:

What the show thinks of Samantha isn't all that clear to me. I know what the EPs said, but why make the choice to make her Laurel's friend on her third appearance?

I think the Samantha was Laurel's friend tidbit was added to further the St. Laurel narrative since there was a scene were she forgave her.

Multiple characters parroted the "she's just a mother trying to keep him safe" line and in 415 when Felicity says "who even asks someone to do that?", Oliver says the same thing to her. However, Samantha apologized directly to Felicity for it, (which is more than Oliver ever did.) 

According to the show, accidentally getting knocked up by Oliver trumps all, I guess. 

Edited July 2, 2017 by leopardprint

[bijoux]

13 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I think the Samantha was Laurel's friend tidbit was added to further the St. Laurel narrative since there was a scene were she forgave her.

I'm sure you're right about this even if it only made Laurel into more of a pushover, proclaiming her undying love three episodes later. The St Laurel part could still have remained without the friendship angle with Laurel very comforting and supportive of Samantha, and then breaking down in front of Lance like she did. Maybe it would have been a smidgeon less ridiculous then.

Maybe.

[tv echo]

I believe that this is the fan/MG message exchange referenced upthread - I guess everyone can interpret it however they like...

Edited July 2, 2017 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

9 hours ago, johntfs said:

I think Samantha did care that Oliver was in a stable relationship and running for mayor - and that was part of the reason she insisted on secrecy.  Figure there were people invested in him becoming mayor and she didn't want to attract their attention as a potential scandal.  At that point Felicity was still running Palmertech as the CEO.  I know if I had a child by the fiance of someone that rich and powerful, I wouldn't want to attract her attention.  People who do that tend to die in "robberies gone wrong" or "car accidents."  Now, we all know that Felicity isn't like that, but Samantha didn't at that point.

I  appreciate your defense of Samantha, a thankless task.  However the decision whether or not William would be a potential scandal is Oliver's, not Samantha's.  And Oliver wasn't asking to tell the world, just the woman he was planning to marry.

Felicity was CEO of a middling company, not even at Arlene Dickinson levels of fame much less a Trump or a Koch.  And not, as @bijoux said, head of a crime syndicate.   Thinking that Felicity would want to kill the illegitimate child of her boyfriend is paranoid thinking.  (And a good reason for getting William away from a parent who thinks like that.)

9 hours ago, johntfs said:

It didn't seem like she was necessarily surprised that they weren't together.  However, she did notice there was clearly something still between them and she encouraged Felicity to take the risk and go for what made her happy.  Samantha never really had true ill-will for Oliver, she just wanted to keep herself and William out of the nastier, scarier parts of his life.

Samantha didn't know that Oliver had nastier, scarier parts of his life when she insisted that he not tell Felicity about William.  At that point, he was a guy who had been a douche when she knew him before but had straightened his life around, was living with a stable woman who was the CEO of a company, and was running for mayor.

Encouraging Felicity to go for a relationship again with Oliver is a "STFU Samantha" moment.  If she hadn't insisted on Oliver lying to Felicity, they would probably still have been together.  Sure, they had problems to work out but without Samantha they could have worked them out within the relationship rather than breaking up.

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

I'm sure you're right about this even if it only made Laurel into more of a pushover, proclaiming her undying love three episodes later. The St Laurel part could still have remained without the friendship angle with Laurel very comforting and supportive of Samantha, and then breaking down in front of Lance like she did. Maybe it would have been a smidgeon less ridiculous then.

I agree, Laurel would still have been an understanding, sympathetic person without making Samantha into her friend.  That was another nail in Samantha's coffin, that she knowingly slept with her friend's boyfriend.

I liked Laurel breaking down in front of Lance.  It was realistic.  Not being affected by knowing the guy she was planning to marry got another girl pregnant would have been ridiculously saint-like.

[tv echo]

Also, IIRC, Oliver never told Samantha that his significant other was Felicity Smoak, CEO of Palmer Tech. Now it's possible that Samantha already knew about Felicity from doing her own research on Oliver (since she knew about Oliver being Mayor, Moira's death and Tommy's death), but that would then make her responses below kinda deceptive and manipulative (acting like she didn't know about Felicity before Oliver told her)...

From 408:
Oliver: "Samantha, there is someone in my life now. Please, don't make me keep this from her."
Samantha: "Oliver, you will if you want a relationship with my son. These are my conditions. You've already asked the world of me, I'm just asking for the same in return."
*  *  *
Samantha: "These are my conditions, Oliver. You've already asked me for the world. I am just asking for the same in return."
Oliver: "Okay, I won't tell anyone. Even Felicity."
Samantha: "Felicity, that's a nice name."
Oliver: "She is a nice person. She's the best."

From 415:
Samantha (to Felicity): "Oliver told me that there was someone in his life, someone special, and her name was Felicity. He wanted to tell you, and I wouldn't let him. I didn't know who he was now, I didn't know what kind of person he was."

Edited July 2, 2017 by tv echo

[bijoux]

Thanks, @tv echo. I forgot that Samantha didn't even know who Oliver's girlfriend was. Supposedly. ?

[statsgirl]

Aaargh!  that just makes it worse!  Samantha couldn't even be bothered to learn anything about Oliver's life. She didn't want to know what kind of person he was.  Her mind was shut.  And yet she still gave Oliver unsupervised visits with William!

And what is this "You've already asked me for the world" crap?  All Oliver was asking was to get to know his son, the son who she had lied to him about for ten years.  There was no indication that he wanted to take William away from Samantha.  She's treating William like a possession. 

Not the world's worst mother but still a bad one.

[insomniadreams88]

38 minutes ago, tv echo said:

From 415:
Samantha (to Felicity): "Oliver told me that there was someone in his life, someone special, and her name was Felicity. He wanted to tell you, and I wouldn't let him. I didn't know who he was now, I didn't know what kind of person he was."

The first thing Samantha should have done as soon as Oliver found out about William was find out exactly what kind of person he was before letting him near her son. 

9 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

And what is this "You've already asked me for the world" crap?  All Oliver was asking was to get to know his son, the son who she had lied to him about for ten years.  There was no indication that he wanted to take William away from Samantha.  She's treating William like a possession. 

Yep. 

She also really should have thought about William. Shouldn't he be able to get to know his own father and know he's his father? (Instead of, say, finding out from the guy who kidnapped him before he killed himself in front of him?) Was it ever said on-screen what Samantha told William about his father? Did he think he abandoned him? Did she tell him he died?

You know, I wonder if that ultimatum was something Samantha had thought about in case Oliver ever found out about William in an attempt to maintain control over the situation and once she had it in her head, she refused to let go of it.

So it wouldn't have mattered what Oliver said about Felicity. They could have been married already and Samantha probably still would have said he couldn't tell her. (Or maybe not. Maybe that's just my dislike of Samantha.)

[statsgirl]

Samantha pushing Felicity to get together again with Oliver in 5x23 seems so out of the blue since it was her demand that drove them apart -- unless she wants Oliver to marry Felicity (or someone else) in the hope that if he has his own children with his new wife, he'll lose interest in William.

[johntfs]

6 hours ago, statsgirl said:

However the decision whether or not William would be a potential scandal is Oliver's, not Samantha's.  And Oliver wasn't asking to tell the world, just the woman he was planning to marry.

If it's a scandal, Samantha's going to have cameras in her face (and front yard) as much as Oliver will.  Even before running for mayor Oliver is a pretty big celebrity type, so if "Oliver Queen has a secret love child" gets out, that's still cameras in Samantha's face and microphones stuck in front of William.  Telling Oliver "don't tell anyone else about this" perhaps limits the likelihood of that.

 

42 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Samantha pushing Felicity to get together again with Oliver in 5x23 seems so out of the blue since it was her demand that drove them apart -- unless she wants Oliver to marry Felicity (or someone else) in the hope that if he has his own children with his new wife, he'll lose interest in William.

I take it from the viewpoint that she knows Oliver is a much better person than when he knocked her up and that Felicity seems like a pretty nice, stable person.  So, just one human to other humans, Samantha wants good things for them both.  And the best thing for them both is each other.  That said, she'd also really like it if she and William weren't getting kidnapped by Oliver's psychotic enemies.

Most of the Samantha problem come from the Arrow writers being a bit shit at what they do.  There's a way to write Samantha where she doesn't come off as vile or manipulative (perhaps by simply having Oliver decide on his own to keep William a secret maybe after Samantha says "Oliver, look, don't tell a bunch of people about this.  I don't want William and me to end up on the front page of the tabloids with you."

[Mellowyellow]

Ugh I saw Billy being mentioned in another thread and was reminded of the gawd awful chemistry that actor and EBR had together. My golly gosh it was bad. He looked like a wet fish most of the time. 

Especially after Felicity was so adorable with Barry and Ray (yes yes disagree and mock me but there are a few of us on Palmer Island) rust stood out as being soooo bad. 

Or did they intentionally want to make it bad? Cuz he didn't seem like he was into Felicity at all.

With Barry it was an adorable bucket of puppies and with Ray even though she didn't love him, they were cute, had silly hijinks and a good friendship.

Actually now that I've typed all that out I realise they didn't care about Billy. He was randomly inserted for reasons.  Still the lack of chemistry was noticeable.

[BkWurm1]

10 hours ago, tv echo said:

Also, IIRC, Oliver never told Samantha that his significant other was Felicity Smoak, CEO of Palmer Tech. Now it's possible that Samantha already knew about Felicity from doing her own research on Oliver (since she knew about Oliver being Mayor, Moira's death and Tommy's death), but that would then make her responses below kinda deceptive and manipulative (acting like she didn't know about Felicity before Oliver told her)...

From 408:
Oliver: "Samantha, there is someone in my life now. Please, don't make me keep this from her."
Samantha: "Oliver, you will if you want a relationship with my son. These are my conditions. You've already asked the world of me, I'm just asking for the same in return."
*  *  *
Samantha: "These are my conditions, Oliver. You've already asked me for the world. I am just asking for the same in return."
Oliver: "Okay, I won't tell anyone. Even Felicity."
Samantha: "Felicity, that's a nice name."
Oliver: "She is a nice person. She's the best."

From 415:
Samantha (to Felicity): "Oliver told me that there was someone in his life, someone special, and her name was Felicity. He wanted to tell you, and I wouldn't let him. I didn't know who he was now, I didn't know what kind of person he was."

 

9 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Aaargh!  that just makes it worse!  Samantha couldn't even be bothered to learn anything about Oliver's life. She didn't want to know what kind of person he was.  Her mind was shut.  And yet she still gave Oliver unsupervised visits with William!

And what is this "You've already asked me for the world" crap?  All Oliver was asking was to get to know his son, the son who she had lied to him about for ten years.  There was no indication that he wanted to take William away from Samantha.  She's treating William like a possession. 

Not the world's worst mother but still a bad one.

Except she actually had been keeping track of Oliver's life. Per 408:

Quote

 

S:  Here. I never cashed it. I didn't need her money to know I didn't want her anywhere near my child.

O:  Or me anywhere near him.

S:  So what, he can be just like his dad? Punching out paparazzi and getting young girls knocked up?

O:  Samantha, I'm not that person anymore.

S:  I know, I know. You're--you're running for mayor, your mother was killed. Your friend Tommy, you're a different person now. But can you really tell me that your life is any less crazy? Can you honestly say that William isn't better off with your world kept away from his?

O:  No, you're right, I'm being selfish. But I want an opportunity to get to know my son, and I think that a young boy deserves the opportunity to get to know his father.

S:  He's happy. He's--he's well-adjusted. I don't want to run the risk of him getting sucked into your orbit. That can't happen. Which means... That he can't know that you're his father. And nobody else can. I don't care if that sounds harsh. I'm his mother, and I will do whatever-- whatever I feel I have to do to protect him.

O:  Samantha, there is someone in my life now. Please, don't make me keep this from her.

S:  Oliver, you will if you want a relationship with my son. These are my conditions. You've already asked the world of me, I'm just asking for the same in return.

 

Setting aside that I don't believe for a second that Samantha didn't cash one of those million dollar checks (cause otherwise she would have had TWO uncashed checks to brag about), this whole sequence is a mess.  

So in one breath she's accusing him of being the same person from 10 plus years ago that apparently she so despised that she still doesn't regret robbing him of any joy that he could have had if she'd let him have William in his life, and in the next she acknowledges he's not that same guy while still at the same time not wanting William involved in Oliver's life in any manner.  

Her final line about asking the world of Oliver because he's asked the world of her, that's always come off to me as her exacting a pound of flesh in punishment.  She KNOWS she's messing his life up and she's fine with that because she feels that Oliver even knowing about William let alone meeting him is messing up hers.  

 

Now I know most people aren't evil, just self-centric, and when she cut Oliver out of William's life, she may have felt justified in the moment and I have a hard time blaming her too hard at first, even though the lie about the baby dying takes it to a whole other level of deception, callousness and complicity.  I even don't hold it against her not telling him even after he returned alive and Moira died.  Chances are good she'd told William a version of the truth, that his father had died and I get how complicated her life would become for her and William if she had to suddenly say your dad came back to life, especially when said dad didn't know the kid existed.  Letting Oliver know at that point was going to be a mess and so I can understand how she might have convinced herself that keeping the secret was in everyone's best interest.  I disagree, but understand her PoV.

But that's not what we have happening here.  She's past the point of keeping it a secret.  Oliver KNOWS.  He's had it proven.  Obviously her first choice was for Oliver to never find out but it makes zero sense that her second choice is 'meet Mom's old friend', but never in public and no one can know about him.  It's not like this was a poorly thought out choice, spur of the moment, I don't believe that.  She had a year since she bumped into Oliver in person to think about what if William had been with her that day.  What if Oliver had taken one look and figured everything out.  Anyone would have played that game.  

 She's had a YEAR at least to face reality and go through all the possibilities.  She's had to have decided on this course of action.

 So either she is vindictive and sort of evil or we know where the crayon eater gets his smarts.  Or varying degrees of both.  

Edited July 3, 2017 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

28 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

S:  So what, he can be just like his dad? Punching out paparazzi and getting young girls knocked up?

O:  Samantha, I'm not that person anymore.

S:  I know, I know. You're--you're running for mayor, your mother was killed. Your friend Tommy, you're a different person now. But can you really tell me that your life is any less crazy? Can you honestly say that William isn't better off with your world kept away from his?

O:  No, you're right, I'm being selfish. But I want an opportunity to get to know my son, and I think that a young boy deserves the opportunity to get to know his father.

S:  He's happy. He's--he's well-adjusted. I don't want to run the risk of him getting sucked into your orbit. That can't happen. Which means... That he can't know that you're his father. And nobody else can. I don't care if that sounds harsh. I'm his mother, and I will do whatever-- whatever I feel I have to do to protect him.

O:  Samantha, there is someone in my life now. Please, don't make me keep this from her.

S:  Oliver, you will if you want a relationship with my son. These are my conditions. You've already asked the world of me, I'm just asking for the same in return.

Now we know how the kid got the name Myson instead of William.

S:  So what, he can be just like his dad? Punching out paparazzi and getting young girls knocked up?

Me:   As opposed to sleeping around with her friend's boyfriend and getting knocked up like his mom?

S:  I know, I know. You're--you're running for mayor, your mother was killed. Your friend Tommy, you're a different person now. But can you really tell me that your life is any less crazy? Can you honestly say that William isn't better off with your world kept away from his?

O:  No, you're right, I'm being selfish. But I want an opportunity to get to know my son, and I think that a young boy deserves the opportunity to get to know his father.

Now this is nasty.  She's using Oliver's guilt to manipulate him.  As far as she knows, Tommy died because of the Undertaking and his father.  Oliver had nothing to do with that. She doesn't know that Slade targeted Moira because of Oliver.  The most she knows is that Star City is a dangerous place but by then, there were metas running all over Central City too.

If Oliver were really the man she's accusing him of being her threats would have worked at all.  It's because he's not that guy that her extortion worked.

[BkWurm1]

17 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Now this is nasty.  She's using Oliver's guilt to manipulate him.  As far as she knows, Tommy died because of the Undertaking and his father. 

She seemed sympathetic when bringing up Tommy but Tommy was part of Oliver's "orbit".  So was she actually blaming Oliver for knowing the son of the man behind the Undertaking?  I wonder.    

[statsgirl]

But Samantha, as Laurel's friend and someone who was hanging out with Oliver, was also part of Oliver's orbit. That's the problem, much of what she accuses Oliver of often rebounds back on her.

[Hiveminder]

9 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

She seemed sympathetic when bringing up Tommy but Tommy was part of Oliver's "orbit".  So was she actually blaming Oliver for knowing the son of the man behind the Undertaking?  I wonder.    

She was essentially blaming Oliver for having suffered a bunch of really traumatic experiences. 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

But Samantha, as Laurel's friend and someone who was hanging out with Oliver, was also part of Oliver's orbit. That's the problem, much of what she accuses Oliver of often rebounds back on her.

Oh, well now her concern seems justified, lol. 

[Mellowyellow]

I keep seeing all these Olicity kisses on Twitter for International Kiss Day.

My favourite Olicity kiss has got to be the s5 Bunker sex kisses especially  where he pauses to look at her. Damn S5 you had your moments!

[Guest]

520 kiss is the hottest O/F kiss, no doubt. But I really love their first kiss because it was emotional and had a lot of feeling? I also really love their kiss at the end of 401 because they actually take a moment from kissing to smile. Loved up dummies, I hate them!

[lemotomato]

The 520 kisses were crazy hot. Maybe because they didn't have to do as much choreographing or try to make it romantic as they did for 320, so they just went for it.

Parts of it are even hotter when slowed down and in reverse:

Edited July 7, 2017 by lemotomato

[Guest]

Um, wow. ?????????

[Morrigan2575]

EBR/Felicity looks seriously gorgeous in black & white.

[BkWurm1]

I know shows have gotten away from theme songs and showing montages from previous seasons in the opening credits, but I just so had a happy vision of getting to see that scene every week when I tuned into Arrow.  

Edited July 7, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Mellowyellow]

Oh I totally adore theme songs and montages. It's a pity western shows don't do it much. 

Asians love that stuff and with the Chinese series you'd get a full sizzle reel for the entire series running with the theme song so you'd be waiting and waiting for that ep with Olicity in wedding gear or Felicity with a giant tummy. 

Makes it easier to put up with temp LIs etc. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

2 hours ago, lemotomato said:

The 520 kisses were crazy hot. Maybe because they didn't have to do as much choreographing or try to make it romantic as they did for 320, so they just went for it.

Parts of it are even hotter when slowed down and in reverse:

Uhm, my brain just got fried. Is that scene flipped or reversed or something? And yeah, wow, EBR looks absolutely stunning in that shot. 

[LeighAn]

38 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I know shows have gotten away from theme songs and showing montages from previous seasons in the opening credits but I just so had a happy vision of getting to see that scene ever week when I tuned into Arrow.  

I was just saying the other day that something I love is that Netflix always has opening credits for their shows. I miss opening credits. 

[lemotomato]

25 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Uhm, my brain just got fried. Is that scene flipped or reversed or something?

Yup! Reverse of the moment when Oliver puts the kissing on pause and they smile and gaze at each other..

[BkWurm1]

It's all that open mouth, heavy breathing hovering. Yowsa!

[SmallScreenDiva]

Seeing them in B&W now makes me want an episode where Oliver gets conked a little too hard in the head and starts to dream of pulp fiction. He's a worn-out PI, Felicity is a dame with a secret, Digg is the world-weary cop Oliver sometimes works with.

[wonderwall]

 

I really adore this gif

[Mellowyellow]

Ran into this on Twitter! His default face for Felicity *sigh*

This is why I ship it badly!

https://video.twimg.com/tweet_video/DEK2YcrUwAA6NQ8.mp4

Anyway it made me rematch their scene in 1x11 and squee over "No but if it works for you go with it"

I loved how she looks like she's just enjoying the pretty/hot view. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Since "I gotcha, honey" is apparently canon, per the quote SA wrote for somebody asking for an autograph at a con ... do we know if Oliver has used endearments with his past girlfriends, or is this a Felicity thing? 

Edited July 12, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva
added "SA"

[leopardprint]

11 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Since "I gotcha, honey" is apparently canon, per the quote wrote for somebody asking for an autograph at a con ... do we know if Oliver has used endearments with his past girlfriends, or is this a Felicity thing? 

Personally, it seems odd to me that he did call her honey but maybe because I like that they made "Felicity" into a term of endearment and prefer that to "honey" or "babe" which seem out of character for Oliver to say but then again he does call Thea, "Speedy," in conclusion this comment went nowhere. 

I can't remember if he called Laurel anything in the flashbacks.