Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[kismet]

1 hour ago, Hiveminder said:

I don't understand how anyone can root for the Oliver/Laurel relationship portrayed on Arrow. Oliver never treated her well, and Laurel allowed it. 

Oliver was a terrible boyfriend to her and only a marginally better friend. I never saw any evidence that he ever loved her as more than a friend he got to have sex with pre-island or saw her as anything other than a means to assuage his guilt and recapture an earlier time in his life or a reminder of his own selfishness post island. 

I must admit, I did root for a reconciliation for the characters eventually in early s1. Only because I think that redemptive love can be a compelling story. Showing that OQ regretted some of his choices, and wanted to be a better man was a story with potential. That although they grew apart, they could grow back together. That together they could make a better future for themselves and others. And it would have been great if they fought together on Team Arrow, or him on the streets/her in the courtroom. But then Arrow made it pretty clear that OQ was a horrible partner/friend to LL both before and after the island. So yeah, I jumped off that train pretty quickly. He never prioritized her. He barely treated her with respect. They both were the worst versions of themselves around each other. There was no redemptive love story. It was just LL clinging to her lost dreams and altered reality. And OQ trying to find the most efficient way to never have to interact with LL ever again. Certainly not the foundations of a compelling love story.

When the showrunners pivoted away from LL/OQ as romantic soulmates in the end of s1, it was one of the best decisions they ever made. And whenever they try to revisit it, I just shake my head because they are just sabotaging all the good work they've done. I still think LL deathbed love confession was one of the most insulting things to write for a woman character.

Edited January 27, 2017 by kismet

[Hiveminder]

32 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Male fantasy relationship? A hot girl in sexy outfits who never complains or has an kind of emotional response to anything.

I suspect there are women (or at least young impressionable girls) who think they're great together too, though. 

It's gross and sad, because it tells me that people like strong female characters who can kick someone's ass, just so long as she's cool with her boyfriend being a sleaze bag. 

[Cleanqueen]

Also a lot of them like it because with Laurel, Oliver cheated on her multiple times and did his own thing. So they prefer that type of women. Majority of the GA/BC are men and the female have an obscured definition of a what a romantic relationship entails.

Regarding the alien dream, let's also not forget that Laurel herself mentioned on numerous occasions that she didn't truly believe he would actually marry her. Even in the dream world he was still messing around and it's pretty much why she wasn't at all shocked that he missed the rehearsal and didnt call. Add salt to the would he was about bounce without saying goodbye. So after all even in that dream they were never meant to be.

[LeighAn]

12 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I suspect there are women (or at least young impressionable girls) who think they're great together too, though. 

It's gross and sad, because it tells me that people like strong female characters who can kick someone's ass, just so long as she's cool with her boyfriend being a sleaze bag. 

I was referring to the male frat boy comic fans.

As for female fans I think most acknowledge Oliver was a crap boyfriend but they go to extreme lengths to justify and fannon it away.

(I once read a female Lauriver stan say when complaining about season 3  Olicity that she just wanted the show to go back to have Oliver worshipping Laurel- read into that what you will)

Justifying and fannoning I can understand. It's no lie that you have to do that on Occassion with Olicity- cough BMD cough- it's the fact that often the fannoning I've read for Lauriver isn't supported by anything in the show or by the producers of the show. 

[Hiveminder]

17 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I was referring to the male frat boy comic fans.

As for female fans I think most acknowledge Oliver was a crap boyfriend but they go to extreme lengths to justify and fannon it away.

(I once read a female Lauriver stan say when complaining about season 3  Olicity that she just wanted the show to go back to have Oliver worshipping Laurel- read into that what you will)

Justifying and fannoning I can understand. It's no lie that you have to do that on Occassion with Olicity- cough BMD cough- it's the fact that often the fannoning I've read for Lauriver isn't supported by anything in the show or by the producers of the show. 

I don't think all of the comic fans are guys though. (Though certainly the majority are. )

But back to the show, Oliver never worshiped Laurel. That idea is laughable. Sometimes I think he barely realized that she was a person and not just a symbol representing all the mistakes he made and the life he could have had. 

[LeighAn]

I think the proble I had with Oiver and Laurel was that the show started on the premise that Oliver and Laurel were this encompassing couple Tommy Thea Moira and Sara would talk about how it was always the two of them and how great they were but the audience never saw any of that. What they did see was a lot of sister swapping cheating and Laurel being openly hostile and passive agressive to Oliver because of the sister swapping and cheating.

The premise of their relationship was based entirely on getting the audience to buy in on despite what they were seeing on screen that Oliver and Laurel are great epic love because ~destiny~.

Meanwhile along side the Oliver Laurel story we saw Oliver and Felicity meet, we saw the cute starting off interactions with the flirting and testing each other out, we saw their friendship blossom and grow and the trust develop between them as they learnt each other and how that blossomed into love and then eventually being each other's always.

[kismet]

I think the natural chemistry and bonding we see with O/F was what the writers envisioned in the show's creation for O/L. But casting and a horrible backstory got in the way. I also think the writers suck when it comes to writing romantic pairings. The only reason Diggle is in a happy successful romantic relationship is because Lyla is offscreen most of the time. Whenever the romantic relationship is being dealt with in the writing, the writers add all these layers of melodramatic angst on it that is just unnecessary.

So O/F dynamic is what the writers wanted as their romantic canon, but its not comic canon. So hence the continual BTS drama of what the best thing for the show is.

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

Whenever the romantic relationship is being dealt with in the writing, the writers add all these layers of melodramatic angst on it that is just unnecessary.

I wish they would realize that when it comes to writing tension into relationships on this show, less is more.  Keep the focus on the action and solving the problem of the latest villain.

[tv echo]

18 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

To remain on topic, somebody upthread mentioned the part where Oliver said Felicity knew him "better than almost anyone." I think whoever wrote that line was just echoing what Felicity said to Ray about her knowing Oliver "better than almost anyone." In Felicity's case, it made sense that she would sort of hedge it. But Oliver should really know who he thinks knows him best. It's probably not the sister he's lied to for years. Probably not Digg or any of the noobs. I chalk it up to just another weirdly worded line because these writers are hacks. 

I had forgotten about that, so thanks!

Olicity 3x17 "I know him better than almost anyone."
Published on Mar 25, 2015,by Sofia Ghauri 

 

17 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Oh.  Well we know it won't because the show doesn't want to sell that Laurel is the love of Oliver's life but if they did, they could have him try relationships with tall thin women with long dark hair who are always trying to save the world (cop, lawyer, soldier, crusading journalist (NOT Susan), aid worker ) but it always fails because she's not the right one.  Bonus points if she's the one who points it out.

You mean like Tina? So Oliver will always carry a part of Laurel with him? (Just kidding... mostly) ;)

Edited January 28, 2017 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

Well, there is Tina  (facepalm).

I'd forgotten how much I hated Ray back in those days.  "I've held nothing back from you...I thought you were someone who could be a true partner" when ten seconds ago you just proved that you held back letting her know that the suit, the suit she's been working months on, now works.  And you stole her facial recognition software without telling her what you were doing.  What a dick.  "True partner" my ass.

He never did apologize for any of that, did he?

Listening to the first line of the clip, Felicity coming in and talking about the crazies on the tip line, demonstrates one of the reasons EBR is so good.  Her voice moves around, inflection, up, down, never flat or boring, making even the worst line interesting.

Ray said in the clip that he had three PhD.s  In the last episode of LoT (Raiders of the Lost Art), he said he had four PhDs. I wonder when he had time to get the fourth one ... maybe while Oliver was getting his PhD in psychology.*

 

*According to the Canadian Psychological Association, the average time taken to get a PhD in clinical psychology from entering graduate school is 7 - 10 years.

[kismet]

Oh Ray, how I despised those episodes. So glad he found his way to LoT where the writers know how to write and utilize his character.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Ray said in the clip that he had three PhD.s  In the last episode of LoT (Raiders of the Lost Art), he said he had four PhDs. I wonder when he had time to get the fourth one ... maybe while Oliver was getting his PhD in psychology.*

Flashpoint?

[insomniadreams88]

5 hours ago, statsgirl said:

 Ray said in the clip that he had three PhD.s  In the last episode of LoT (Raiders of the Lost Art), he said he had four PhDs. I wonder when he had time to get the fourth one ... maybe while Oliver was getting his PhD in psychology.*

Especially since isn't he technically considered dead? Or did they fix that some time between Arrow 406 and LoT? 

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Especially since isn't he technically considered dead? Or did they fix that some time between Arrow 406 and LoT? 

No, I don't recall anything like that.  

[ParadoxLost]

I'm not really a regular watcher of this show.  I've watched the episodes this season but not very enthusiastically and not on what you'd call a regular schedule.  And I'm really not invested enough to call myself a shipper of Felicity and Oliver; though Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity is about all I find tolerable about the show and Oliver only situationally.

So I was curious...

Are they actively trying to bury Oliver and Felicity's relationship to the point that its not viable to resurrect it?

Because this last episode was tonally really odd to me.  Two things stuck out:

1) When Oliver was fighting Prometheus, Prometheus said something about Oliver having to choose between fighting him and saving Felicity.  Oliver didn't choose to save Felicity.  He got his but kicked through a wall and decided to try to "save" Laurel from herself.

2) His attempt to reason with Laurel was really badly worded.  I just needed a simple "you aren't going to kill Felicity"  (like he cared that Felicity might be hurt) and they he could yammer all he wanted about Laurel trying to be a better person.  Instead he pulled a {paraphrased} "if you kill Felicity, then it will be really bad for your long term emotional health and it will take you down a dark path".

Being as close to the general audience as you can be, if you know about these boards, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to go with 1) the writers get distracted by their plot/theme and forget to think about unintended consequences and secondary relationships and consequences, 2) we are supposed to know Felicity is badass enough that she doesn't need Oliver to act like he cares that she might die or something (yea, I careened into not making sense there), or 3) they just don't want to do anything with Oliver and Felicity's relationship.

[way2interested]

17 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Are they actively trying to bury Oliver and Felicity's relationship to the point that its not viable to resurrect it?

I don't really see it that way. I actually took 510 as them acknowledging Oliver and Felicity's relationship for the first time since 505, at least tonally, as in they acted like two people who have had five years or friendship/a past romance between them. Burying it, to me, would have had them not interact as much as they did or have had Felicity probably have some sort of line to acknowledge that the door would be completely closed since he killed Billy.

22 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

1) When Oliver was fighting Prometheus, Prometheus said something about Oliver having to choose between fighting him and saving Felicity.  Oliver didn't choose to save Felicity.  He got his but kicked through a wall and decided to try to "save" Laurel from herself.

2) His attempt to reason with Laurel was really badly worded.  I just needed a simple "you aren't going to kill Felicity"  (like he cared that Felicity might be hurt) and they he could yammer all he wanted about Laurel trying to be a better person.  Instead he pulled a {paraphrased} "if you kill Felicity, then it will be really bad for your long term emotional health and it will take you down a dark path".

For the first point, idk I saw it as Oliver hesitating from taking down Prometheus (not having known that BS was about to kill Felicity or that they were even in the same room as each other), Prometheus getting the upper hand, and then once Oliver saw that Felicity actually was in danger he ditched Prometheus entirely. Trying to save BS from herself was just a way to save Felicity while also keeping his morals/viewpoint that he had the entire episode, that "Laurel" is still in there somewhere.

For the second point, it was just a continuation of his thought process concerning BS the entire episode, the idea that she can choose to not to do bad because there's still that good Laurel in there somewhere. While he's saying all of that, he's moving forward until he's ultimately next to Felicity within protecting distance to shield her later just in case it went bad (which, look-y there, Oliver, it did, and yet you still decide to "keep BS close" for some reason). 

Admittedly I haven't rewatched the episode yet, but that's how I interpreted it, so basically, like you said:

33 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

1) the writers get distracted by their plot/theme and forget to think about unintended consequences and secondary relationships and consequences

,but I still think Oliver and Felicity's relationship got showcased in the episode, platonic or otherwise. 

[Trini]

47 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Are they actively trying to bury Oliver and Felicity's relationship to the point that its not viable to resurrect it?

I don't think they are burying it; however, there was a producer comment that said [I'm paraphrasing] that they are taking Felicity through a rough patch, so she has more in common with Oliver when they do come back together? Because Arrow runs on tragedy, I guess.

[ParadoxLost]

4 hours ago, way2interested said:

I don't really see it that way. I actually took 510 as them acknowledging Oliver and Felicity's relationship for the first time since 505, at least tonally, as in they acted like two people who have had five years or friendship/a past romance between them. Burying it, to me, would have had them not interact as much as they did or have had Felicity probably have some sort of line to acknowledge that the door would be completely closed since he killed Billy.

...

,but I still think Oliver and Felicity's relationship got showcased in the episode, platonic or otherwise. 

By burying it, I meant convincing the audience that the relationship is bad for Felicity because Oliver is emotionally stunted and incapable in being in a healthy relationship.  In other words, telling the audience that the romantic relationship is dead and buried.

4 hours ago, Trini said:

I don't think they are burying it; however, there was a producer comment that said [I'm paraphrasing] that they are taking Felicity through a rough patch, so she has more in common with Oliver when they do come back together? Because Arrow runs on tragedy, I guess.

Great, all ships sinking to the lowest common denominator. I'd rather Oliver learn from his mistakes and win Felicity back rather than Felicity making equally bad mistakes so they can say bygones.

[way2interested]

8 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

By burying it, I meant convincing the audience that the relationship is bad for Felicity because Oliver is emotionally stunted and incapable in being in a healthy relationship.  In other words, telling the audience that the romantic relationship is dead and buried.

But by the end of the episode, Oliver recognizes that Felicity was right (her instincts were right, her plan even though it was risky and determined was right, her deduction about why Oliver felt the way he did was right, etc.) and Felicity recognizes that she herself has become pretty averse to good news and that she appreciates the fact that Oliver tried to retain his optimism (even though it was completely wrong in the situation, it shows growth that he had in s4). They had healthy arguments but understood where each other came from (Felicity knew he was trying to stick to his optimism because he wanted redemption, Oliver understood that Felicity was being pragmatic and wanted revenge and not just justice). It wasn't really much of undermining Oliver's character, or even Felicity's character, in a way that shows them of being incapable of having a romantic relationship again, but it was showing that they had different povs for a situation and that with the background that they have with each other (going on 5 years of knowing each other plus a romantic relationship and engagement) that the way they conflict is going to be different than it's been before, which is what they really should have been building on throughout s5 but only really came up a handful of times. Plus, it was mostly to set up Felicity's arc, probably to set-up a more direct conflict with Oliver later.

22 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Great, all ships sinking to the lowest common denominator. I'd rather Oliver learn from his mistakes and win Felicity back rather than Felicity making equally bad mistakes so they can say bygones.

Why can't both happen? Or at least that's how I think this is going to go. Plus, Felicity having more in common with Oliver doesn't necessarily mean that she's making equally bad mistakes. Even in 510 I think she made mistakes that weren't equal to Oliver's but at least show potential for an arc and for growth to mirror Oliver's.

[tangerine95]

6 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I'm not really a regular watcher of this show.  I've watched the episodes this season but not very enthusiastically and not on what you'd call a regular schedule.  And I'm really not invested enough to call myself a shipper of Felicity and Oliver; though Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity is about all I find tolerable about the show and Oliver only situationally.

So I was curious...

Are they actively trying to bury Oliver and Felicity's relationship to the point that its not viable to resurrect it?

Because this last episode was tonally really odd to me.  Two things stuck out:

1) When Oliver was fighting Prometheus, Prometheus said something about Oliver having to choose between fighting him and saving Felicity.  Oliver didn't choose to save Felicity.  He got his but kicked through a wall and decided to try to "save" Laurel from herself.

2) His attempt to reason with Laurel was really badly worded.  I just needed a simple "you aren't going to kill Felicity"  (like he cared that Felicity might be hurt) and they he could yammer all he wanted about Laurel trying to be a better person.  Instead he pulled a {paraphrased} "if you kill Felicity, then it will be really bad for your long term emotional health and it will take you down a dark path".

Being as close to the general audience as you can be, if you know about these boards, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to go with 1) the writers get distracted by their plot/theme and forget to think about unintended consequences and secondary relationships and consequences, 2) we are supposed to know Felicity is badass enough that she doesn't need Oliver to act like he cares that she might die or something (yea, I careened into not making sense there), or 3) they just don't want to do anything with Oliver and Felicity's relationship.

I don't think he chose Prometheus at all. When Prometheus says Felicity or me, he then attacks Oliver before he even finishes the sentence.Oliver even looks back to where Felicity is and is distracted when Prometheus attacks. The few punches and being thrown through the wall were just Oliver defending himself. When he sees Felicity in danger from BS, he doesn't go after Prometheus, he stays to protect Felicity.I think we're supposed to take that as choosing her. 

I didn't really have a problem with what he said to BS. In scenes like those it seems pretty common to try and appeal to any decency in BS so she stops or so it at least buys them some time.I mean I think the part where he actually believes BS might stop on her own is dumb tho.  And during the speech he basically positions himself in front of Felicity and when the canary cry hits them he tries to protect her and take most of the impact himself. So idk, I didn't get the sense he didn't care if Felicity got hurt. Imo he was actually really protective the whole episode. 

I never thought they were trying to bury olicity tbh but especially after this episode I don't think they are because for the first time in a while they let them act like they have history and let them be the emotional center of the episode. 

Edited January 29, 2017 by tangerine95

[LeighAn]

Also the first thing Oliver said after learning that Felicity let Black Siren out was a concerned "you could've been hurt". He promised he would take down Prometheus when he realised Felicity was hurting. He also covered her ears when Black Siren was screaming rather then cover his own. He looked proud and had heart eyes when Felicity talked about her punch. 

Even though there weren't big declarations from Oliver and Felicity I liked that this episode had them talking fighting and communicating with one another and reaching an understanding. It felt more human and realistic then the civil politeness and pretending not to acknowledge the elephant in the room that they've been in since the start of the season.

[statsgirl]

11 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

1) When Oliver was fighting Prometheus, Prometheus said something about Oliver having to choose between fighting him and saving Felicity.  Oliver didn't choose to save Felicity.  He got his but kicked through a wall and decided to try to "save" Laurel from herself.

2) His attempt to reason with Laurel was really badly worded.  I just needed a simple "you aren't going to kill Felicity"  (like he cared that Felicity might be hurt) and they he could yammer all he wanted about Laurel trying to be a better person.  Instead he pulled a {paraphrased} "if you kill Felicity, then it will be really bad for your long term emotional health and it will take you down a dark path".

The first one was kind of hilarious.  Prometheus told Oliver "You can fight me or save Felicity so Oliver picked him to fight.  Fortunately Prometheus had read the outline for the season so he kicked Oliver through the wall to go save Felicity.  (Actually, I saw it as @tangerine95 did, that Prometheus attacked as soon as he had finished talking.  I don't know if it was bad directing or if we are supposed to see it as Prometheus trying to distract Oliver before attacking him.)

The second is probably a consequence of the paint-by-numbers writing this show falls into.  The subtext of the episode was "Oliver tries to redeem himself through saving Black Sire And once again, writing his relationship with Felicity takes second, or third place.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

When Oliver was fighting Prometheus, Prometheus said something about Oliver having to choose between fighting him and saving Felicity.  Oliver didn't choose to save Felicity.  He got his but kicked through a wall and decided to try to "save" Laurel from herself.

Oliver did choose Felicity when he was finally given a chance to turn his back on Prometheus. He could have gone after him, but instead, he got up and went to Felicity.  He defended himself against Prometheus who had immediately attacked after telling him to chose (since of course Prometheus wasn't going to risk just turning his back and walking away.)  

And yeah, I agree that "saving" Laurel was just a means to an end (saving Felicity) while also factoring in Oliver's Laurel blinders and dumb belief that she wouldn't actually kill Felicity if he offered her a way out.  

I saw sooo much in this episode to make me think that they do remember how great Oliver and Felicity are and rather than make me think they tried to lessen their relationship, I thought they showed how strong it can be.  

[Hiveminder]

I just wanted to comment that these writers struck gold with SA and EBR as Oliver and Felicity, and I don't understand why they're wasting all of this potential on tired stall tactics and temp LIs. I've never had an OTP before. I've always been able to picture a variety of different characters in romantic relationships, but imagining Oliver and Felicity with anyone other than each other just does not compute for me. 

[Guest]

I'm trying to imagine what it will look like if they do try the Oliver/Tina thing while Felicity is right there. I just can't envision it? Not to say they wouldn't do it because these writers are fools but there's something really wrong about Felicity watching Oliver move on with his 'comic destiny' after he's the one who messed up their relationship in the first place. I'm just like....no. Nope. *shakes head and doesn't stop*

[BkWurm1]

I found it kind of comforting that a certain group of posters that I'm familiar with that have never liked Olicity seem completely convinced that there is no intention of a romantic GA and BC.  Just an interesting perspective.  

[Chaser]

I was trying to picture Oliver and Tinah (ignoring the gross factor) and I can't even picture it. I don't know if it's the Olicity influence I cant see Oliver with a woman that wise cracking and brash. It doesn't fit.

[statsgirl]

My fear stems from the fact that these EPs have thrown away logical and interesting writing for follow comic canon before.  Oliver and Felicity's relationship in 4A made me overlook a multitude of problems in the show's writing and plotting.

21 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I found it kind of comforting that a certain group of posters that I'm familiar with that have never liked Olicity seem completely convinced that there is no intention of a romantic GA and BC.  Just an interesting perspective.  

It's comforting because those are the people I expect to be all gung ho about a GA/BC romance.  Because comics.

[kismet]

On 2/2/2017 at 10:48 AM, Hiveminder said:

I just wanted to comment that these writers struck gold with SA and EBR as Oliver and Felicity, and I don't understand why they're wasting all of this potential on tired stall tactics and temp LIs. I've never had an OTP before. I've always been able to picture a variety of different characters in romantic relationships, but imagining Oliver and Felicity with anyone other than each other just does not compute for me. 

I feel similar. I've had other OTPs. I've been through relationship stalls. I've been through cliche reasons we keep people apart. I've stuck out will they/won't theys. I've even accepted new pairings when it became clear that the former couple I loved would be no more. But I'm really struggling to determine if I can watch OQ be with somebody who is not FS. I think it might requiring killing her, to permanently remove that option. However, that brings up a bigger problem which is I'm not sure if I want to watch an Arrow without FS alive.

As for FS, I posted awhile back that I could be tempted by FS in a new relationship with a perfectly cast male actor, if the show has completely ditched O/F. I think that still holds true. But only because EBR can easily have chemistry with people and I want FS happy. The problem is they already given me FS with 3 different boyfriends and I've hated them all. EBR has chemistry with a lot of people, but her chemistry with SA is on a whole other magical level.

I get the because COMICS!! logic & desires of TPTB behind Arrow. I just don't understand why they bothered to destroy O/F or gives us them at all in the first place. If their intention was always to have them be platonic in the end. Why bother with a romance and to bring it all the way to an actual bona fide engagement?? I feel very used at times be TPTB. I also feel like they underestimate my knowledge of TV and my intelligence. I'm not some silly female viewer that will go gaga over romance, just because its romance.

And honestly, I think this is the root of some of their problems. They honestly have no grasp on the female audience as is evident by their treatment of all of their female characters, and on a broader sense the viewer (male or female) that appreciate quality relationships. They think they can just substitute and switch up partners, but one is not the same for both platonic & romantic relationships. And as for those that don't like romance or relationships, that is why s4a was perfect for them because it was melodrama free and not shoved down everyone's throat. I really hope someone can translate that message to them after this season. It's not the romance & feelings that are icky, it's the way they are cheaply manipulated for melodrama.

[MaisyDaisy]

2 hours ago, kismet said:

It's not the romance & feelings that are icky, it's the way they are cheaply manipulated for melodrama.

So much this!

[tv echo]

A work colleague of mine just started watching Arrow this season and hasn't watched any previous seasons (yet). Her general impressions: She's confused by Oliver's romantic history. From what she can tell, Oliver used to be engaged to Felicity (she's not sure how that happened), but they broke up because - she guesses - Oliver was still in love with Laurel, an old girlfriend.* Laurel was this wonderful person and Black Canary vigilante who didn't believe in killing. Then Laurel died, leaving Oliver grief-stricken. So Oliver's been looking for a replacement for her. Now he's found one in Tina (Dinah).

(* Why? He carried Laurel's pic in the flashbacks. He built her a Black Canary statue. He wanted to marry her in the 100th episode. He was tearful when he thought she had returned from the dead.)

I had to set my work colleague straight about what actually happened over previous seasons.  But this is an example of how this season has ignored and ret-conned what's come before on the show.

However, my work colleague does think that Oliver & Felicity have tons of on-screen chemistry and has started shipping them. She also thinks that Susan is a FOB (friends with benefits) and that Oliver will hook up with Tina (Dinah) in the future because she will remind him of Laurel. And yes, she thinks that's creepy.

ETA: She is not a comics reader.

Edited February 7, 2017 by tv echo

[bijoux]

How did your friend start watching this season?

[tv echo]

I recommended the show to her last summer (before this season of crap started).  However, I also recommended that she watch previous seasons as well, but she hasn't had time to do that yet.

[tv echo]

I've been trying to decide whether or not I think that Oliver and Tinah* have any chemistry. I've come to the opinion that they have the potential for what I would call 'normal' tv chemistry, meaning, the kind of chemistry you see on most TV shows where there are two attractive characters of around the same age - the kind of chemistry that the Arrow EPs probably expected of Oliver and Laurel when they cast SA and KC without doing a chem test. Unfortunately for them, Oliver and Laurel were unusual in that they not only had zero chemistry, but they had anti-chemistry. But maybe I'll change my mind after viewing more episodes of Oliver and Tinah together.

(* To avoid confusion, I've decided to use the popular nickname "Tinah" in this forum.)

However, one episode is enough for me to conclude that Oliver and Tinah definitely do not have that special, next-level kind of chemistry that jumps out at you from the start - the kind that makes many fans spontaneously start to ship them without any encouragement from the show itself (or any encouragement from external sources like comics) - like, when the characters have not been romantically linked on the show (yet) or when one of the characters is already in a romantic relationship with someone else. I'm talking fan sites and fan-originated pormanteaus and social media buzz springing up out of nowhere, not based on anything manufactured or pushed by the show's producers/network and not driven by anything in some source book. In short, I'm talking about Mulder & Scully-level of chemistry. 

Oliver & Felicity do have this special, next-level kind of chemistry. So much so that, as soon as Felicity Smoak appeared in Season 1, many fans and some media started shipping her with Oliver, even though Oliver was caught up in an emotional romantic entanglement with Laurel during that first season, and even though Felicity was not intended as a love interest for Oliver at the time. This special chemistry was apparent to the EPs as well and caused them to bring Felicity back for additional appearances, eventually promoting her to series regular and making the unexpected decision to develop a romance between her and Oliver in subsequent seasons. IMO, this pairing worked for the show because the progression of their relationship was natural and organic (up until the middle of Season 4, when the EPs fell back on plot contrivances and, coincidentally, also when the ratings collapsed).

Edited February 7, 2017 by tv echo

[way2interested]

38 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I've been trying to decide whether or not I think that Oliver and Tinah* have any chemistry. I've come to the opinion that they have the potential for what I would call 'normal' tv chemistry, meaning, the kind of chemistry you see on most TV shows where there are two attractive characters of around the same age - the kind of chemistry that 

This complaint might be just a nitpick from me, but it's been bothering me, especially if they do go down that road or start hinting at it any time soon. All of the pics that have Tinah and Oliver together in them, imo, they make JH look kind of noticeably younger than SA. It didn't bother me as much in the actual episode, but even some parts of it (and the pics for 512) felt weird to me because I couldn't pin down Tinah's age (is she early 20s or late 20s?) especially in relation to Oliver. It's not that I think she looks too young, but I think that they lack a dynamic that can make me overlook scenes/shots where I think she looks awkwardly younger than Oliver.

[ladylaw99]

Only time will tell if these two get together but for me, I didn't see anything special.  It look like to people meeting and who are going to work together - nothing more, nothing less.  When I first saw Felicity meet Oliver there was a spark - Oliver's smile made me think these two were going to click.

[tv echo]

I have to disagree that Tinah looks much younger than Oliver. I think Tinah looks around the same age as Oliver. I also think she looks older than Felicity. Not that it matters. (FYI, Juliana Harkavy is 32 years old.)

Edited February 7, 2017 by tv echo

[Midnight Lullaby]

I agree. She looks around Oliver's age and older than Felicity to me too.

[way2interested]

I guess it might just be an unpopular opinion with me, then. It's not that I think she actually looks younger, but I think some shots/stills make her look it. Like,

Meanwhile, I think this shot does make her and Oliver look closer in age.

But eh I'm not too passionate about it or anything. It's probably just me adjusting to her since she's really only been in 1 episode.

[tv echo]

That last pic of Tinah and Oliver reminded me a little of Aeryn and Crichton on Farscape, in terms of similar facial/body types. The HUGE difference, of course, is that Crichton and Aeryn had tons of on-screen chemistry, which I don't see with Oliver and Tinah.

[Chaser]

When I looked up JH after she was cast, she reminded me of RG age wise. Someone who can play younger or older depending on the role.

[statsgirl]

4 hours ago, ladylaw99 said:

Only time will tell if these two get together but for me, I didn't see anything special.  It look like to people meeting and who are going to work together - nothing more, nothing less.  When I first saw Felicity meet Oliver there was a spark - Oliver's smile made me think these two were going to click.

For me, it was like Felicity pierced through the shell that Oliver keeps around himself and hit the real person inside.

I don't get that with Tinah.  He speaks, she speaks, they do stuff.

[bijoux]

5 hours ago, Chaser said:

When I looked up JH after she was cast, she reminded me of RG age wise. Someone who can play younger or older depending on the role.

RG?

[tv echo]

Rick Gonzalez (Wild Dog).

Edited February 7, 2017 by tv echo

[LeighAn]

I'm currently rewatching The Calm. All.The.Feels. 

I don't care what happens in the future I will never not believe that Oliver and Felicity aren't being written to be madly in love with each other and the most significant person in each other's lives. Sigh.

[Mellowyellow]

Guys a question: was there any flirting between Oliver and Sara before the lunge?

I fast forwarded a lot of s2 and most of s1 so now I need to find out so I can predict if they'd do a lunge with Tinah.

[kismet]

29 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Guys a question: was there any flirting between Oliver and Sara before the lunge?

I fast forwarded a lot of s2 and most of s1 so now I need to find out so I can predict if they'd do a lunge with Tinah.

I don't remember any flirting at all. In the lunge episode, there were a few moments of codependency that raised flags after the fact. But up until the lounge, it was purely platonic interactions in the present day.

I think its perfectly reasonable to expect a Tinah lunge at this point for purely cuz comics & cuz we feel like it reasons. I would actually be more surprised if we went lunge free.

[Mellowyellow]

Oh noes kismet! And here I thought we were safe!

[MaisyDaisy]

4 minutes ago, kismet said:

I think its perfectly reasonable to expect a Tinah lunge at this point for purely cuz comics & cuz we feel like it reasons. I would actually be more surprised if we went lunge free.

I think it might end up depending upon the ratings, if they do keep sliding and we get 0.5, with an indication that 0.4s might be around the corner. Then they might have to look at course correcting a little earlier towards something that's known to be popular.

If the ratings don't pick up over the next few episodes, indicating that Tinah is not bringing much to the table, then it would be a risk to pair her with Oliver.

[lemotomato]

21 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Guys a question: was there any flirting between Oliver and Sara before the lunge?

I fast forwarded a lot of s2 and most of s1 so now I need to find out so I can predict if they'd do a lunge with Tinah.

No flirting, but lots of meaningful looks and emotional conversations with sad piano music in the background. One scene that emphasized him offering her his hand and her taking it. Sara clearly meant a lot to him even before the lunge.