Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

 

But what happens to the next person Oliver romances who is Felicity?

Hopefully Diggle will give Oliver a reality check.  Or a smack upside the head, whichever is more effective.

 

I was watching the scene in 2x14 where Felicity has been working out, futilely, and the team comes down.  Sara helps her with her stance while Oliver is all "What are you wearing?" and later tells her that she's there because her tech expertise is supposed to trump the Clockmaker's expertise.  It's a nice example of how he has put Felicity (along with everyone else) in a nice tight box and expects them to stay there.

 

In terms of the show, it gives them some nice room to move Oliver in terms of character development.  He's shut down emotionally but he's also shut down in terms of thinking about people too.

Edited June 8, 2014 by statsgirl

[abhi]

 

But what happens to the next person Oliver romances who is not Felicity?

But if one looks at what type of women, Oliver wanted to have a relationship with or was invested in throughout the 2 seasons, there are only 3 names. They are Helena (a fellow vigilante turned villain turned vigilante I guess), Mckenna (a cop) and Sara (Canary). They are all strong women who can handle themselves in a fight. So, if Oliver enters in a relationship, I guess it will be someone who can take care of herself and there are no dearth of such DC characters.

[BkWurm1]

But if one looks at what type of women, Oliver wanted to have a relationship with or was invested in throughout the 2 seasons, there are only 3 names. They are Helena (a fellow vigilante turned villain turned vigilante I guess), Mckenna (a cop) and Sara (Canary). They are all strong women who can handle themselves in a fight. So, if Oliver enters in a relationship, I guess it will be someone who can take care of herself and there are no dearth of such DC characters.

I'm going to add Isabel to the list since he did go there. So it becomes:

Helena and Sara - a fellow vigilante

McKenna - a cop

Isabel - someone he couldn't get close to (or want to)

I think what all of his choices more importantly have in common is not their ability to fight, but that they come with a bit of built in distance.

Isabel was a one off thing. No emotions risked. No expectations attached from either side. She represents empty, dead end flings.

Helena and Sara (and Helena tentatively included since I think the show WILL go there with her in the future) are out there risking their lives while battling emotional demons. Any sort of relationship they enter in comes with the knowledge that they might not stick around long and there is only so much of themselves that they CAN share since they are broken inside. A relationship with them - at least for a long time forward - would only play on the surface with both parties knowing they were holding back. They are safe because they are as messed up as he is.

With McKenna as a cop, I think she came with not only a risk to her life but also equipped with the understanding and acceptance of being with someone who was risking theirs (even if Oliver kept that bit of info from her). I think that basic understanding of the lack of guarantee in life made her a romantic consideration for Oliver. I also think his past with her which sounded casual also made him think she was safe but I don't think their relationship would have stayed casual.

It already was more than casual when she left, but I think the emotional component with time could have grown much deeper. Since McKenna is the one that walked away we didn't see if Oliver would have been able to return the feelings or not. It could have played that he was emotionally stunted and couldn't connect or that he did and those kindling feelings terrified him. I don't think we know if Oliver would have ran from those feelings but his can't be with someone he could care about rule was certainly back in full force so at the very least he would be more diligent about avoiding being with some one who could care for.

So I think McKenna was the one that should have been safe but started sliding toward something more.

[abhi]

I think Oliver was and would have remained invested in the relationship with Helena, Mckenna and Sara. He definitely had an emotional connection with Helena. He understood her pain and till the last moment he tried to redeem her. They have an emotional connection, as the last scene between them depicted. He had a good thing going on with Mckenna till the injury. Between Oliver and Sara, they had a deeper emotional connection due to the island experiences they had. He was open with her like he had not been open to any female in the series (including Felicity). He acknowledged to her that he cannot fight Slade alone and broke down in front of her. He wanted to move in with her. So, all in all I will say they had a good thing going on. 

And who is to say that Oliver won't connect with Helena or Sara(depending on whether Sara comes back) in the third season. Maybe the third season is Sara healing herself and fighting her demons as well as Oliver doing the same. If Sara remains Black canary then I can definitely see a relationship developing between these two.

Edited June 9, 2014 by abhi

[tv echo]

The writing of the arc, and the fact that everything ends up being about Oliver and not the other characters is another problem, and one the writers would do well to overcome. I've no idea who hit on the 'bright' idea that everything should be viewed through the lens of how it affects Oliver Queen, reducing all other characters to secondary concerns, but that person should be fired.

I think it's a storytelling perspective/technique.  I remember watching an interview with Peter Jackson when he was making The Lord of the Rings trilogy.  He said something about how the books were so complicated and had so many characters and plots that, to make sense of how to tell the story in a coherent fashion in the movies, they focused on Frodo and told everything from Frodo's viewpoint and how it affects his story.  So it could be that the EPs focus on Oliver (the lead character) to keep the storyline coherent and not rambling off into side stories.  I agree, however, that they need to do a better job of showing the motivations of secondary characters.

 

But if one looks at what type of women, Oliver wanted to have a relationship with or was invested in throughout the 2 seasons, there are only 3 names. They are Helena (a fellow vigilante turned villain turned vigilante I guess), Mckenna (a cop) and Sara (Canary).

 

Actually, there's also Laurel.  I haven't re-watched Season 1, but wasn't Laurel someone Oliver wanted to have a relationship with (again) by the end of that season, and wasn't it  Laurel who broke it off at the beginning of Season 2?  I would not categorize Laurel as someone who can take care of herself in a fight.

 

I just throw up my hands and conclude that Oliver's relationships on the show have no rhyme or reason.  He's a guy that wants to sleep with women and he'll use whatever rationalizations (to himself) are necessary.  I do agree, however, that he is reluctant to get involved with Felicity because he doesn't want to hurt her (emotionally) and he needs her for the team.

Edited June 9, 2014 by tv echo

[Password]

 

I just throw up my hands and conclude that Oliver's relationships on the show have no rhyme or reason.  He's a guy that wants to sleep with women and he'll use whatever rationalizations (to himself) are necessary.  I do agree, however, that he is reluctant to get involved with Felicity because he doesn't want to hurt her (emotionally) and he needs her for the team.

 

I agree.

[quarks]

Between Oliver and Sara, they had a deeper emotional connection due to the island experiences they had. He was open with her like he had not been open to any female in the series (including Felicity). He acknowledged to her that he cannot fight Slade alone and broke down in front of her. He wanted to move in with her.

 

 

 

I've probably said this before, but since it's come up again: I'm not sure that any of this is supported by the script.

 

The script of Suicide Squad is very specific: Sara says that the two of them rarely discuss emotional things and that they're not good at it. Yes, Oliver does tell Sara that he's scared of Slade and doesn't know how to defeat him - but he says the same thing to Diggle and Felicity. Oliver has at least five separate conversations with Felicity about Slade and how much Slade is freaking him out, not to mention the Clocktower scene with her where he says he's failed the city. He's also broken down in front of Diggle and Felicity at least twice and arguably four times - last season after realizing that his mother was involved with the Undertaking; early in the second season after he found out Sara was alive; more arguably at the end of "Deathstroke," and in Arrow Cave Two when he tells them he has to let Slade kill him.

 

I'd also argue that the script is pretty ambiguous about whether or not Oliver really wanted the commitment of moving in with Sara - when she asks, Oliver hesitates. In contrast, he doesn't hesitate for a moment to offer to move cities and abandon his entire life to be with McKenna. That apartment conversation is also where Oliver says, in the script, that they have barely even been alone together for weeks, which again doesn't suggest emotional openness.

 

And I'd say that the first person in the city that Oliver really opened up to - as both Oliver and the Hood - is Helena. They don't just discuss their secret identities, but also their isolation and the pain of losing loved ones. That's the foundation for their moment in this season's Birds of Prey episode, where he admits to her that he's still just trying and still working it out - more that he's admitting to others.

 

I bring this up because I keep seeing "shared island experience" = "they get each other, they're really close!" when it seems to me that the opposite is actually happening on screen. Yes, they had a shared island experience - but that said, it wasn't entirely shared.  Sara and Oliver went through different types of hell their first year on the island - it's why they ended up disagreeing so much on the second year on the island, and given that that's also in real time, that wasn't a full year - just October through May.  In the current timeline, the show has gone out of its way to show that Sara and Oliver disagree about some very fundamental issues, said in the script that they don't open up much to each other, and said in the script that they haven't spent much time alone. 

 

Which isn't to say that Oliver hasn't opened up to Sara - I think he has - or that he won't go back to Sara eventually - I think the show very definitely left that open as a possibility, and at this stage, I wouldn't be surprised to see Oliver with Sara at the end of the show.  I just don't agree that she's the only one, or even the one he's been the most emotionally open with; I think he's been equally open with Helena and Felicity. 

Edited June 9, 2014 by quarks

[statsgirl]

Helena and Sara - a fellow vigilante

McKenna - a cop

Isabel - someone he couldn't get close to (or want to)

I think what all of his choices more importantly have in common is not their ability to fight, but that they come with a bit of built in distance.

Isabel was a one off thing. No emotions risked. No expectations attached from either side. She represents empty, dead end flings.

Helena and Sara (and Helena tentatively included since I think the show WILL go there with her in the future) are out there risking their lives while battling emotional demons. Any sort of relationship they enter in comes with the knowledge that they might not stick around long and there is only so much of themselves that they CAN share since they are broken inside. A relationship with them - at least for a long time forward - would only play on the surface with both parties knowing they were holding back. They are safe because they are as messed up as he is.

My bolding, because I think that's the crux of the relationships Oliver lets himself get into, that and whether he thinks it safe to be with the woman i.e. his vigilante activities won't get in the way of them being together.  With McKenna, he thought he could have both a vigilante life and a real life, as Felicity and Diggle were pushing him to, and then found out McKenna got hurt because of him (his association with Helena plus teaching her how to use a crossbow). Later he tried again with Laurel only to have that blow up in his face along with Starling City.

 

The one thing that doesn't fit was his willingness to give up his life in Starling City to follow McKenna to her sister's but I attribute that to hyperbole on the part of the writers since there was no way it was going to happen.

 

 

In the current timeline, the show has gone out of its way to show that Sara and Oliver disagree about some very fundamental issues, said in the script that they don't open up much to each other, and said in the script that they haven't spent much time alone.

Oliver also said that he's tired of having the same argument with her over and over (when Thea was kidnapped).

 

It seems like Oliver connects to different people with different parts of himself. With Helena, it was the loneliness and pain. With McKenna, it was the dream of a normal life. With Sara, it was what they went through on their islands and his sense of responsibility for the hurt he feels he has caused her (this also applies to McKenna).  With Isabel it was no string attached sex.  With Laurel it was his dream of going back and wiping out the island years. With Felicity it's the idea of what it takes to be a hero.

 

And with Diggle, it's everything that goes with being a soldier, the PTSD, the little bits of yourself being chipped away, and not really knowing who to trust.

Edited June 9, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

I think the Olicity stuff is off putting to a lot of the fan base and a lot of potential male viewers don't take Arrow seriously because of these stuffs and dismiss Arrow as another typical CW show. Amell's facebook comments when an "Olicity" fanart is shown is a good example of the fatigue.

Besides, these fan-girls are atrocious and have blurred reality and fiction. They have attacked Cassandra, Amell's wife, on Twitter constantly to the point that she has to retort on her Twitter. It's not Vampire Dairies where majority of the demo is female. Arrow's male demo is more than double of that of female and all this shipping stuff is off putting to the male viewers.

- from @abhi at the spoilers thread

 

I don't think the showrunners care about how fans treat Cassandra. I'm not sure of the true extent of the nature, but unless you look at all the tweets, you can't just blame the olicity shippers. Maybe they're just Green Arrow watchers. Plus, a few comments of hate is sort of expected in the biz. It just depends on whether they listen or not. 

 

And you honestly can't gauge what Amell says on facebook. A lot of his comments are short and stoic like Oliver himself. He can't just show all his support for a ship and isolate a different part of the fanbase. And I've actually been around a lot of comment boards (more specifically IGN which is populated by white males) and they don't seem to have a problem with Olicity just as long as they're not being fan pandered. Again, it's impossible to say which part of the fan base is considered a lot. 

 

Again, you just can't blame all the shippers for the hate, it's sort of unwarranted (unless you did a thorough check), and unless you actually have had a conversation with Stephen and he says "I'm tired of Olicity" or frustrated with them, then you can't say that either. It's just speculating beyond reason and proof. 

[Password]

I don't mind Olicity or Lauriver to be honest because I find the tumblr posts very entertaining after or before Arrow airs. When I see personal attacks it bothers me so I don't look at them. There's nothing wrong with being enthusiastic about what you like, but personal attacks are so unwarranted and unnecessary. Though I agree with @wonderwall, you really can't blame one fandom for everything that goes wrong.

[doesntworkonwood]

I think that if a fanbase is invested enough in a part of the show that they're writing fanfiction, making fanvideos and having deep conversations about that part of the show, then that can only really be taken as a positive. People reacting the way they do to aspects of shows is great for the people who made them, because it shows that fans have gained a deeper, more emotional attachment to that aspect of the show, which is what creators want. 

 

Olicity fans are just part of the fandom that is invested in that specific part of the show, and there is nothing wrong with that. 

 

Admittedly, the personal attacks are disgusting, but I don't think that all of the personal attacks have come from Olicity fans. All parts of the fandom have bad apples.

[Morrigan2575]

None of this belongs on the thread anyway but the stuff that happened on twitter was NOT started by fandom...you only have to look at twitter and SA's wife's actual post.  If anyone wants to discuss it further feel free to PM since there really isn't a place to discuss it on this board.

 

As far as Olicity goes...there's clear indication that there was an Olicity kiss that was in S2 (most likely the finale) that got cut.  We got this from a few sources, CH answered in a Madrid Q&A that's he'd want to be Oliver in S3 because of an O/F scene that got cut from S2, then there's the comment from SA about the ILY scene in the finale being shorter than they originally filmed and he felt this version worked better, plus there's the "mystery kiss" in the finale that Canadagraphs talked about (which never ended up in the episode).

 

All indications point to O/F kissing in the Queen Mansion.  Having not seen the cut scene I don't know what it would have been like but I think the way the mansion/beach scenes played out perfectly with just the right amount of teasing/setup for further Olicity development in S3 with a probable real kiss by the end of S3 (my guess) to cap off the S2 finale ILY.

 

A part of me wonders what would have happened if they did kiss?  Both the media and fandom went nuts with the ILY, could you imagined how much more talk there would have been about it if the ILY was coupled with a kiss?  Then again, those fans that were hurt by the fakeout would have been even more hurt by both the fake ILY and a kiss.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[doesntworkonwood]

Yeah, I think that the fake kiss would have been really awful. The scene worked fabulously as it was, and the way it was put together. Literally, the only thing that I would have changed about it was making it more clear about whether or not Felicity knew about the ruse or not (but that's more of a Felicity having agency thing). I think it would have been horrible for the kiss to happen, and as a fan of their relationship, I'd have been sorely disappointed to know that their first kiss was a ruse.

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah, I think that the fake kiss would have been really awful. The scene worked fabulously as it was, and the way it was put together. Literally, the only thing that I would have changed about it was making it more clear about whether or not Felicity knew about the ruse or not (but that's more of a Felicity having agency thing). I think it would have been horrible for the kiss to happen, and as a fan of their relationship, I'd have been sorely disappointed to know that their first kiss was a ruse.

Agreed, completely which is why I'm glad it was cut (assuming we're not all nuts and that's what happened..but it seems the mostly likely scenario).  I think the scene played out perfectly, it was a tease but also a setup for S3.  I saw someone on tumblr made comparison's to the Olicity fakeout and something that happened on The Mentalist in S4 finale that was recently paid off in the S6 finale.  It's an obvious trope but one that does actually work in most shows.

[tv echo]

I believe that every TV drama - even superhero/action shows - should include developing personal relationships.  Without personal (and romantic) relationships, the hero becomes a two-dimensional cartoon character who exists only to fight bad guys (example: the old Adam West Batman series)  That's not the Arrow I want to see.

 

Arrow needs all the fans it can get - whatever their reasons for watching the show.  If there aren't enough fans, ratings will drop and the show will be cancelled.  So I don't get knocking Olicity fans or Lauriver fans or whatever fans.  I may not like Laurel or other characters on the show, but I get that they have their fans and that's cool.

 

I and a lot of my friends were turned off by the Laurel-Oliver relationship in Season 1 and thought the introduction of Felicity improved the show.  That's not to say we want the show to be primarily about personal relationships - it's not a soap opera.  We also love the action/fighting scenes, the plot developments, the other characters, etc.  But everything together is what makes up the show.  But who's to say that the show would have survived past Season 1 without the introduction of Felicity and the development of Team Arrow?  Just imagine Arrow being about Oliver fighting bad guys and having Laurel as his girlfriend.

Edited June 11, 2014 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

Honestly, anyone who says romance doesn't belong in a superhero comic book show has never read a comic in their life.  That's why I laugh when people start blaming the CW for the romance or saying it's pandering.

 

GA 52: Potential side plot love triangle with Oliver/Naomi/Fyff

Bop 52: Potential love triangle with Kurt/Dinah/Ben (condor) assuming Kurt's didn't die, I've fallen  few months behind

X-Men relationships galore: Scott/Jean, Emma/Scott, Jean/Scott/Emma triangle, Scott/Jean/Logan triangle, Remy/Rogue, Nathan/Domino, Terry/Jamie Madrox, Tabitha/Sam, Warrern/Husk, Husk/Chamber, Lorna/Alex, Lorna/Bobby, Bobby/Lorna/Alex triangle, Bobby/Kitty (holy crap, the one surprised me), maybe even Bobby/Angelica...talk about Old School that was something I wanted back when Spider Men and His Amazing Friends was around.

 

The list goes on and on, and I'm not even touching on DC Comics or Marvel comics in general.  

 

Comic books have never just been about the powers or the fights they've always been about the characters and relationships between the characters, friends, lovers, enemies, mentors and protegees all play an important part in a good comicbook story and a good adaption.

 

Sometimes Arrow misses the mark, making the Oliver/Slade falling out being about Shado was a really bad cliche IMO, in other ways Oliver/Diggle, Oliver Felicity, Oliver/Tommy and Oliver/Thea I think the show does really well in showing how friends, family, partnership and potential romance can work while adding to the heroes journey.  

 

In fact the ILY scene was actually the perfect combination of Romance/Heroic Storyline, IMO.  You have the underlying feelings that (depending on your bent, may/may not have been there) but it's being used to further Oliver's journey to being a true hero.  

Edited June 11, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Password]

Just imagine Arrow being about Oliver fighting bad guys and having Laurel as his girlfriend.

 

I just cried a little on the inside.

[doesntworkonwood]

 

I saw someone on tumblr made comparison's to the Olicity fakeout and something that happened on The Mentalist in S4 finale that was recently paid off in the S6 finale.  It's an obvious trope but one that does actually work in most shows.

I read that, it was a really interesting comparison actually. The tumblr post also made a lot of comparisons about fan reaction to the two couples, so I think it's great to see the parallels as well.

 

Here is the link if anyone wants to read it. 

[quarks]

Eh, Arrow hasn't hesitated to do things that were off-putting to a portion of its viewership - having Oliver sleep with Sara again even after viewers complained about the cheating on your girlfriend with her sister bit right in the pilot, for example, or having the protagonist on a superhero show kill so many people in the first season, impaling Moira, making Roy so dense, "wasting" really cool villains, and so on - not to mention that Game of Thrones continues to have a high viewership and extremely high DVD/Blu-ray sales despite doing seriously off-putting things every single episode.  So that alone isn't going to necessarily stop the showrunners.

 

And unfortunately you get bad fans with every show.  I'm not thrilled with the way some GoT fans respond to Sansa and Cersei, for instance, but that hasn't stopped me from watching. 

 

Regarding the kiss: whoa, if it was in there, I'm really glad it was cut. The scene worked much better without a kiss, in my opinion. I know the fakeout kiss is a standard trope for this sort of relationship, but it's more usually used to let the two pretend that they're just making out, nothing to see here - not as a fakeout to persuade someone else that they are in love, unless it's played for pure comedy. Ugh.

 

I think that Oliver trusting Felicity enough to realize that she didn't need things spelled out for her and that she would be able to understand him and nail Slade at the right moment, and waiting for her "yes" after the "Do you understand?"  was giving Felicity agency, but that's very definitely one of those "your mileage may vary" things.

[Password]

To me a kiss would have made me dislike Oliver. He has to know she has feelings for him, so the ILY was one thing, a kiss would've been a whole other.

 

I don't watch The Mentalist but I found it funny that people said they saw the relationship as more of a brother/sister thing. That is just plain funny.

[doesntworkonwood]

I think that Oliver trusting Felicity enough to realize that she didn't need things spelled out for her and that she would be able to understand him and nail Slade at the right moment, and waiting for her "yes" after the "Do you understand?"  was giving Felicity agency, but that's very definitely one of those "your mileage may vary" things.

Oh yeah, there was definitely a sense of agency, but for me it didn't make sense that he drove all the way to the Mansion and waited until the last moment to tell her about it, but I think that was more a stylistic choice than anything else. I was just disappointed because up until then we had Felicity very overtly take control of the things that she had done and the trouble that she gets into. She even stated once 'It's my life, it's my choice', so I thought it was a bit off not seeing that. But you're absolutely right, it is one of those 'your mileage may vary' things. 

 

As far as that scene goes, I think that Oliver trusting Felicity to partake in such an important job shows us a lot more about their relationship and how far they've grown than any 'I love you', whether it was real or fake.

[Luckylyn]

The quote I'm paraphrasing is from the movie Trust (A family is like a gun, you point it in the wrong direction you're gonna kill someone).  I thought is was fitting for this show and the complicated familial and platonic relationships.

 

Moira is a devoted mother but her choices haven't been in her children's best interests.  Thea should have been warned about Malcolm.  Moira's choice to keep his being alive a secret was a selfish choice because she didn't want Thea to know he was her father.  Meanwhile Malcolm is a major threat that Thea and Oliver who Moria knew was the Arrow needed to know about.  Also, Moira letting Oliver believe his child was dead rather than giving him the chance to grow up and be a father was an awful thing to do.

 

As for friendships,  I love Diggle and his relationships with both Oliver and Felicity.  I also love that Roy/Sin stayed platonic and there was no Thea/Roy/Sin triangle.  I just hope we'll get more Sin/Thea friendship in season 3 but since Sin seems closer to Roy that might not work.  The show needs female friendships.  The camaraderie between Sara/Felicity was great to see.  I hope that Roy being part of Team Arrow allows for Felicity/Sin interaction.  I could see Felicity looking after her for Sara's sake. 

[KirkB]

I don't quite get why Moira didn't tell anyone Malcolm was alive. I get her hiding his being Thea's father from Thea, but wouldn't the woman who went to jail for her association with the man who nearly destroyed the city want to warn the authorities (or at the very least the Arrow) that he was back? If only so that secret coming out later wouldn't make her personal situation worse.

[JayKay]

The show needs female friendships. The camaraderie between Sara/Felicity was great to see.

I agree. I'm always bummed when opportunities for the women on this show to interact take the catty route. Sara and Felicity's friendship surprised me in that they respected each other and seemed to admire each other on their own merits without Oliver being the crux of it. I'm bummed that it wasn't further explored.

We rarely get to see the characters just hanging out and enjoying each other's company. I would love for a slower-paced episode that just explored the moments that ground the friendships when there's not a stunt team around.

[Luckylyn]

We rarely get to see the characters just hanging out and enjoying each other's company. I would love for a slower-paced episode that just explored the moments that ground the friendships when there's not a stunt team around.

I feel like we should have less flashbacks and more character interactions like that.

[KirkB]

Oh I would take just about anything (except more Laurel) over flashbacks. I am so sick of the flashbacks.

[statsgirl]

 

but for me it didn't make sense that he drove all the way to the Mansion and waited until the last moment to tell her about it,

I think it was an idea that he had had earlier but I don't think he was intending to do it, it was unthinkable for him.  He told her to stay and the Manor because he needed her to be safe and that he'd come back for her after it was all over, and then he walked away. It was only after Felicity went after him and told him she wanted to be out there unsafe with the rest of them that he decided to go for it and trust her that she would know what to do and do it..

 

It's consistent with that Oliver has a really strong need to protect people, especially those he cares for. Even with Sara who can certainly protect herself, he told her to keep out of the way nowt that Slade was going for him.

 

making the Oliver/Slade falling out being about Shado was a really bad cliche IMO

In my mind, it was about the mirakuru distorting Slade's brain.  Shado was the reason he seized upon.

 

In Adlerian psychotherapy one of the things Adlerians do is ask the patient for his or her earliest memory.  This acts as a sort of shorthand for how you see yourself and your life.  Sometimes, after therapy, the first memory changes in that other things that were happening is incorporated, so that post-therapy the memory has changed.  I fanwank that the mirakuru affected Slade's brain and made him fixate on what was already bothering him, which was Oliver's relationship with Shado.  I'd like to know what happened to Slade's SO and son back in New Zealand. 

Edited June 11, 2014 by statsgirl

[Morrigan2575]

Except of course you have the Mirakuru Clean Slade stating at the very end of the episode it wasn't the drug. And a drug free Slade still hating Oliver and wanting revenge.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[statsgirl]

True.  That doesn't make much sense .... unless I fanwank that 5 years of mirakuru altered his brain permanently.

 

It's too bad because i really liked the Slade/Oliver friendship pre mirakuru, and Slade's contempt for Oliver being a wimp.

[icandigit]

 

@quarks

 3. Number of times Laurel proves that she doesn't know Oliver better than anyone else, three: 1, when she says in the courtroom that helping people out isn't Oliver's style. 2, when she says Oliver wrecks fancy cars and dates models, but doesn't kill people (why were you dating him, Laurel?) 3, Laurel, admitting on screen that she didn't even stop to wonder what could have happened to Oliver.

 

I took this from the damaged episode thread. I know. I just can't leave it alone. I don't understand being in a long term committed relationship with a guy you keep admitting you knew always sucked. I know love is blind, but they have yet to sell me on this. I can see them being bff and fwb who loved each other. Didn't do a committed relationship because of his playboy ways. And then him messing things up by getting with and killing her sister. That's the only thing that would make sense to me here. But, there had to be like physical evidence of Ollie in the media with all manner of women.

[Password]

What I don't understand is Laurel telling Oliver she knows he doesn't give up, that he's a fighter in s2 ep21 during her speech/pep talk. This supposed playboy displayed these characteristics in between drinking and partying. Nothing about their relationship screamed any of that. If the media see he's philandering ways, WHY is Laurel wanting to move in with him?

[statsgirl]

From the Damaged thread:

 

Still don't understand why Laurel dated him when she keeps alluded to the fact that she knew he was no good. Not just dated but had some kind of long term relationship.

I explain it to myself by saying that he represented a lifestyle that she wanted, since she was the poor one at their prep school.  And she had a plan for her life, which included dating the rich cute boy, living with him, and then marrying him. Maybe she saw herself like Moira Queen, who also turned a blind eye to her husband's side trips.  (I'm not surprised Moira preferred Laurel to Felicity as someone for Oliver.)

 

Since Laurel has no clue as to what he is really like, she projects on to him what she wants him to be.  Five years earlier, it was the guy she was going to marry.  In early s1, it's the playboy who goofs off and couldn't possibly want to help people. At the end of s2, it's being a fighter and not giving up.  I'm surprised she didn't send him off with her scarf as a favor to wear on his arm.

 

What doesn't make sense to me is Laurel continuing to refuse Tommy because she feels that he's a playboy, but obsessing about Oliver even when she thinks that he is.

[wonderwall]

What doesn't make sense to me is Laurel continuing to refuse Tommy because she feels that he's a playboy, but obsessing about Oliver even when she thinks that he is.

This just goes to show how blind and deluded Laurel can get when it comes to Oliver. He's like her kryptonite or something. The green one because he literally weakens her character just by being around her.

Edited June 11, 2014 by wonderwall

[quarks]

Well, on a fast rewatch it becomes more clear that Oliver changes his expressions over time with Laurel - in the first makeout scene he's still wearing his GRIM EMO STOIC face; in the later makeout scene towards the end of the first season he's using his What, me responsible for picking up a dead rabbit face/shifty expression that he tends to use for pre-island scenes.  Which also means that Laurel runs from him when he's using his post-island face, but not when he's his old pre-island self.

 

Granted I think pre-island Oliver was a more fun sort of guy who didn't yell at people as much as post-island Oliver, unless they were paparazzis, but, still. I'd probably be a lot more enthusiastic about the subtle hint that with Laurel, Oliver feels he can be his pre-island self, something he desperately wants to get back to, and that Oliver wants this to be his true self, if the show wasn't also showing me that pre-island Oliver was a major jerk. 

 

Anyway, let's just skip past how wanting to get back with pre-island Oliver doesn't make sense from Laurel's viewpoint or fit with anything Laurel and Katie Cassidy are saying, except that pre-island Oliver does seem to have been a more fun sort of guy then post-island Oliver, and to give pre-island Oliver some credit, he doesn't seem to have yelled at people as much unless they were paparazzis, so, er. (It's weak, I know, but in my defense the show hasn't given me much to work with here.)  Present day, I'm reading that as another indication that Oliver can only be with Laurel if he goes back to his old, pre-hero self; she doesn't work with his post-island self.  In some ways, that's a draw since it's nice to think that at the end, Oliver Queen can have some semblance of a normal life - but in most ways, it's not, given that the show is really about Oliver changing from pre-island jerk to post-island hero, and if he wants to go back to pre-island, he loses that. 

Edited June 11, 2014 by quarks

[dtissagirl]

In some ways, that's a draw since it's nice to think that at the end, Oliver Queen can have some semblance of a normal life - but in most ways, it's not, given that the show is really about Oliver changing from pre-island jerk to post-island hero, and if he wants to go back to pre-island, he loses that. 

 

That fits Oliver/Sara, even -- after Oliver and Sara got together, the narrative turned a lot of their relationship into stuff Laurel could react to, which made Oliver look like an insensitive jerk.

[statsgirl]

 

Which also means that Laurel runs from him when he's using his post-island face, but not when he's his old pre-island self. [snip]

Present day, I'm reading that as another indication that Oliver can only be with Laurel if he goes back to his old, pre-hero self; she doesn't work with his post-island self.  In some ways, that's a draw since it's nice to think that at the end, Oliver Queen can have some semblance of a normal life - but in most ways, it's not, given that the show is really about Oliver changing from pre-island jerk to post-island hero, and if he wants to go back to pre-island, he loses that.

Is Laurel the only one who still calls him "Ollie"?  If so, it's a nice example of how she wants the old pre-island Oliver back.

 

But other than to be with Laurel, I can't think of why Oliver would want to be pre-island Ollie.  He lived a life of pure pleasure but I can't imagine that he would have much fun doing that now.  Granted, they were five years where nothing good happened (except for Shado and learning various skillis) but I hope that even with that he would appreciate Socrates notion that the unexamined life is not worth living.

 

I'd like to think that Oliver can have some semblance of a normal life again, just not with someone who wants him to turn back into what he was 7 years ago.

Edited June 11, 2014 by statsgirl

[writersblock51]

 

It seems like Oliver connects to different people with different parts of himself. With Helena, it was the loneliness and pain. With McKenna, it was the dream of a normal life. With Sara, it was what they went through on their islands and his sense of responsibility for the hurt he feels he has caused her (this also applies to McKenna).  With Isabel it was no string attached sex.  With Laurel it was his dream of going back and wiping out the island years. With Felicity it's the idea of what it takes to be a hero.

 

And with Diggle, it's everything that goes with being a soldier, the PTSD, the little bits of yourself being chipped away, and not really knowing who to trust.

 

I love this description of Oliver's relationships - these are how I look upon them as well.

 

As a fan of comics books for over 30 years now (and a soap fan for that same time until my favorite went off the air a few years ago), I've felt that there is a fuzzy area between them.  Soaps don't have superheros with capes, for example, but there have been alter egos, on-going protagonist/antagonist relationships that span decades, and so on.  Comic books have a ton of stereotypical soap elements.  Both depend on relationships to keep going.

 

I'm not convinced that there was a Felicity-Oliver kiss in the S2 finale - but I, upon rewatch, think the scenes at the mansion and the beach worked out nicely.  Now let's see how S3 handles what happened.

[tv echo]

Here's my take on the whole ILY fakeout and what it means for the Oliver/Felicity relationship -

 

Oliver took Felicity to the mansion fully intending to set her up as bait and without telling her first.  If he had told her ahead of time, he would have given her the syringe before arrival.  If he took her there just to keep her safe, he would not have taken her to a place that he knew was bugged by Slade; instead, he would have taken her to his backup lair that no one knows about (other than ARGUS).  Why didn't he tell her ahead of time?  He didn't think she would be able to act/react convincingly.  She's very honest and transparent and not a good liar (remember, her trying to make excuses to Isabel?).

 

However, once he got her to the mansion, he may have had second thoughts but still went forward with his plan, trusting Felicity to understand and follow through on her end.  That said, he would not have kissed her because he knows how she feels and that would've been one step too far.  A kiss wasn't necessary to convince Slade (who's a reticent, warrior type who would've expected Oliver to be in combat-ready mental state).  Nevertheless, he could've stopped at "he took the wrong woman".  His saying ILY to Felicity was unncessary for the ruse and, subconsciously, he wanted to say it.  Consciously, he believes it was for the ruse.

 

As others have said, the show is now set up in Season 3 for a deeper, more trusting relationship between Oliver and Felicity - but still without any willingness to go further for various reasons already stated.

Edited June 12, 2014 by tv echo

[wonderwall]

This is pure speculation and way too analytic but maybe Oliver said it because deep down he thought that there's a big chance all of them will die and that if he didn't say it then, then he would probably never be able to say it ever. While he doesn't consciously know that he loves her, I think that every other part of him does and his feelings were further reinforced when she told him to honor the people he loved by fighting on. I think that Oliver successfully represses his feelings just as much as Felicity tries to but during that silent moment, a part of him that he repressed sort of gained a sense of lucidity which is what life/death situations tend to do. 

[statsgirl]

I like to think that Oliver took Felicity to the mansion because it's 20 miles out of town and would have still been standing even if Slade and ARGUS destroyed the city.  (They must have teleported because that is a long travel time when things were coming to a head.)

 

It's true that Felicity isn't the greatest actress, although with time to prepare  she does okay (e.g. in the casino and delivering the Big Belly Burger at Merlyn's office).  Felicity had offered herself as bait to the Dollmaker when there were three big guys following her to make sure she did't get hurt but this was different. I don't like the idea that Oliver was willing to use her as bait for Slade in an extremely dangerous and likely fatal situation without getting her consent even though he had plenty of time to do so on the trip over.  The stakes were huge true, but not respecting Felicity enough to get her agreement before putting her in the hands of a psychopath like Slade makes Oliver seem like a user to me. Like pre-island Oliver user even if it is dressed up in saving the city.  If he had the plan all along and didn't tell her,  after all the island and first two season's opportunity for growth I think he would be irredeemable for me.

[wonderwall]

I don't like the idea that Oliver was willing to use her as bait for Slade in an extremely dangerous and likely fatal situation without getting her consent even though he had plenty of time to do so on the trip over.  The stakes were huge true, but not respecting Felicity enough to get her agreement before putting her in the hands of a psychopath like Slade makes Oliver seem like a user to me. Like pre-island Oliver user even if it is dressed up in saving the city.  If he had the plan all along and didn't tell her,  after all the island and first two season's opportunity for growth I think he would be irredeemable for me.

That's the thing though. He did get her consent, and that was when she accepted his plan and took the syringe. Oliver gave Felicity an out when he asked her if she understood, Felicity could've easily refused to be the bait and stay with Oliver, but she didn't. She trusted his judgement just as he's trusted hers time and time again. We all know Felicity will do anything to save the city, and that it's her life and her choice. While it was Oliver's idea to do the bait-switch, Felicity agreed to be a part of that plan. Was she scared? Absolutely. But Felicity wouldn't back down from the idea of finally beating Slade, someone who's terrorized Oliver and the city. 

[statsgirl]

At that point, if Felicity didn't give her consent, how would she have been able to get out of it?  He'd already said, in front of Slade's cameras, that Slade took the wrong woman, he'd already said "I love you" to Felicity. If she wanted to back out when he stuck the syringe in her hand, how could it have been done it safely?  The target was already painted on her back at that point.

 

That's why I can accept it if it was a last minute decision, made out of desperation, but not if it was his plan all along going back to the Manor.,

Edited June 12, 2014 by statsgirl

[HighHopes]

I think her consent came when she said "I don't want to be safe I want to be with you and the others, unsafe". That was her saying that she wanted to be saving the city and in danger. The "he took the wrong woman...I love you" came afterwards. The "do you understand" was him asking her if she understood the plan band what to do with the syringe. If she was okay staying safe and accepted that Oliver was going to hide her away (which in my opinion he knew she wouldn't do) he wouldn't have said anything about Slade taking the wrong woman.

[doesntworkonwood]

I really think that they need to clear up what exactly Felicity knew before hand. Most of the focus on that scene was on the 'I love you.' I do think that it changes the scene a lot more depending on whether or not Felicity knew before hand. I think if she didn't, then (IMO) that doesn't look good on Oliver, and if she did it fits with what we know of Felicity.

 

For me, anything that could have hurt Felicity (and putting her in the hands of Slade could have gone a whole lot worse) would need a full 'I want to stab him with a needle' as far as consent goes. And from what we've seen of Felicity, if she knew about the plan, she would have said that.

 

That said, I think that the fact the Oliver waited to get to the mansion to give her the syringe was mostly a stylistic choice (or one made to make us question if the 'I love you' was real or not.)

[Password]

At that point, if Felicity didn't give her consent, how would she have been able to get out of it?  He'd already said, in front of Slade's cameras, that Slade took the wrong woman, he'd already said "I love you" to Felicity. If she wanted to back out when he stuck the syringe in her hand, how could it have been done it safely?  The target was already painted on her back at that point.

 

That's why I can accept it if it was a last minute decision, made out of desperation, but not if it was his plan all along going back to the Manor.,

 

My sister who doesn't watch Arrow, but has heard me wax lyrical about Oliver's douche tendencies watched it with me and immediately said "Don't believe him he's using you." after he said the ILY. If you strip everything back you can definitely say Oliver used her because he knew she wouldn't say no and had the audacity to tell someone he knows likes him (even loves him) that he loves her. Not only that, but that Slade took the wrong woman, Laurel, who Felicity knows Oliver has a massive soft spot for as his one true love. Everyone and their mama knows Felicity Smoak would not have said no to Oliver, and I have wondered why he didn't tell her on the way over. Either he thought Slade could somehow hear their conversations, which is possible because he had cameras in the house, or he needed for her to really sell it, which is in my opinion a douche move. However, I have decided to look at it in a different way.

 

Sara did tell him he has to do the unthinkable, and I'd like to think, and indeed it was confirmed as so, that offering Felicity up as bait was unthinkable. It was unimaginable and if Diggle were there it would've been nixed. It was very clinical on Oliver's side, and kind of painful to watch on Felicity's side. Frankly it should be addressed in s3 because even though it worked he put her in direct harm. I know it showed his immense trust in her, but it still kind of leaves a bitter taste in the mouth.

[quarks]

I said this shortly after rewatching the scene after the episode initially aired: I don't think that Oliver was sure he could go through with it on their way over to the mansion. I think he did want to make one last ditch attempt to keep her safe. Here's how it plays out:

 

Oliver and Felicity enter the house.

 

Felicity: Oliver. What are we doing here? The whole city's falling apart.

 

Oliver: I know.  [bIG SIGH.] You need to stay here.

 

Felicity: Wha? Why? You can't just ask me to -

 

Oliver: I'm not asking. [Pause.] I will come and get you when this is all over.

 

Felicity: No.

 

Oliver, growling as he stomps away: Felicity...   

 

[Note: at this stage, Oliver is no longer looking at her. He's hurrying off to the door and leaving her there. Oliver has done this sort of thing multiple times previously in the show - made announcements and stalked off, leaving Felicity and others there without explaining a damn thing, or stalked off in the middle of an argument to go do his Arrow thing, so this is pretty typical Oliver behavior, as is the yelling at Felicity. He's done this as recently as Suicide Squad, Birds of Prey, Deathstroke and Seeing Red.

 

Also, Felicity often does stay behind - though, granted, in the Arrow Cave, not in a spooky deserted house with nothing but camcorders - unless Oliver specifically tells her to come along.  She lets him stalk off on his own in Suicide Squad, for instance, even after protesting, "It's suicide!" So at this point, Oliver does have some reason to believe that if he tells her to stay behind, she will, though he has more reason to believe that she's going to yell.

 

Which she does, but she doesn't just yell back: she says she's not staying behind. Her voice goes high pitched and panicky.]

 

Felicity: No! Not unless you tell me why!

 

Oliver: Because I need you to be safe.

 

Felicity: But I don't want to be safe.

 

Oliver sighs.

 

Felicity: I want to be with you. And the others. Unsafe.

 

[During this speech Oliver sighs again, audibly.]

 

Oliver: I can't let that happen.

 

Felicity: Oliver. You're not making any sense.

 

[Actually, Felicity, for once he IS making sense. You have a visible head injury and you need to be in the hospital. If you can't be in a hospital the next best thing is for you to STAY QUIET which specifically includes not running around a city filled with superpowered criminals with incoming drones. Admittedly this bit was not in the script or even alluded to, but it SHOULD HAVE BEEN.]

 

At this point, Oliver sighs again and squares his shoulders. The physical moments he makes with his shoulders suggests to me that only THEN did he decide to go through the plan - after she had told him that she didn't want to be left behind and safe. And after he says, "Do you understand?" Felicity agrees.  Instead of - NOT TO HARP ON THIS OR ANYTHING - asking him to DROP HER OFF AT A HOSPITAL FOR A CT SCAN.

 

I completely agree that Oliver was using her as bait. It's the rest that seems more open to interpretation: did Felicity know before they got to the mansion, and how much choice did she have when Oliver put the syringe in her hand?  I don't think she knew in advance - her panic and confusion seemed pretty real.  I also do think she had a choice when the syringe was put into her hand - sorta. I mean, what are you supposed to tell the guy at that point? But for all this, I think that Oliver wasn't just using her - he was showing her that he trusted her to be able to understand him without specific words, and to stick Slade at the right moment. And that Felicity's real choice was made when she told him that she didn't want to be left behind: she wanted to be with him and the others, unsafe. But that's me.

[wonderwall]

In the end, if Felicity was okay with what Oliver did, then I'm okay with it. She could've been a lot of things after Oliver/Felicity defeated Slade. She could've been angry, sad, disappointed, but she was none of these things. What she was, was hopeful. That just goes to show how good, light spirited she is. Felicity is strong enough emotionally to be able to handle this and I think the viewers should understand that Felicity Smoak doesn't break easily (which is why we love her) :)

[JenMD]

That said, I think that the fact the Oliver waited to get to the mansion to give her the syringe was mostly a stylistic choice (or one made to make us question if the 'I love you' was real or not.)

 

I think a large part of how the scene was constructed was this, made for tv.  I doubt the writers gave the whole thing as much thought as viewers have.  Marc G has said in the past that they don't really think about logistics when they start writing scrips (and it shows, imo).

 

I also do think she had a choice when the syringe was put into her hand - sorta. I mean, what are you supposed to tell the guy at that point? But for all this, I think that Oliver wasn't just using her - he was showing her that he trusted her to be able to understand him without specific words, and to stick Slade at the right moment. And that Felicity's real choice was made when she told him that she didn't want to be left behind: she wanted to be with him and the others, unsafe. But that's me.

 

In regards to Felicity having a choice, I absolutely think she did.  Up until the point he walked out the door, she could have at any moment simply said, "Oliver, don't leave me here", and you know he would have taken her with him and understood that she was not willing or felt she was unable to do what he was asking of her.  But yes, it's about the trust between them and Oliver doing the unthinkable and putting her in the line of fire and having the faith and trust in her to get it done.

[Password]

When Felicity says "I want to be with you...and the others, unsafe." it makes me crack up. It's such a Laurel thing to say "Ollie I want to be in danger!!!" But Felicity says it and 1) It melts me and 2) I laugh because it sounds funny. Just let Laurel try that ish and watch people shout at her for being a dumb idiot.

 

Just after Felicity says I want to be with you Oliver looks up. Such a cute moment. If he had any doubts that may well have turned the tables for him because Slade would've seen her feelings as plain as day. If Felicity did have a choice, Oliver knew she wouldn't say no. That wreaks of taking advantage of the situation and her so I hope it is addressed through Diggle in s3 because that man knows what's up.

[dtissagirl]

I'm really loving this discussion. :)

If those cameras were capturing audio for Slade, then Felicity was showing that she loves Oliver from the time they arrived at the mention. "I wanna be with you" was pretty telling. I think this scene calls back to the "love is the most powerful emotion" line from 212. Oliver knows how Felicity feels about him, and he knows he's putting her in danger, and using her feelings while at it -- and I agree this has to be addressed in S3. But I also think that Felicity understood what he was doing [and if she felt like she had to forgive him for using her feelings, she did it pretty quickly] because she was the one who told Oliver he had to outsmart Slade in the first place. It was a dangerous plan, and Oliver had to do one of the most calculating things he ever had to do, but it WAS a pretty good plan with a better chance of working than anything else they could have tried.

What I REALLY wanna know is what the hell did they talk about in the drive from the city to the mansion. Isn't it 20 minutes away from the city? Did Felicity just pester Oliver with questions he refused to answer? :)

Edited June 12, 2014 by dancingnancy