Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

I think Unthinkable answered the question of whether Felicity can take care of herself. She's not as good a fighter as Sara, not by a long shot, but she can do what needs to be done i.e. put herself in danger and coolly take down the bad guy.

 

It doesn't make sense any more to say that he can't be with Felicity since she can't fight, not that it ever did much since everyone Oliver/Arrow knows is a target (Moira, Thea, Laurel, Quentin) whether in a relationship with him or not.  Merely by working with him makes Felicity a target too.  But I wouldn't be at all surprised if Oliver continues to use that rationalization to keep her at arm's length.

Edited June 5, 2014 by statsgirl

[abhi]

Yes, the baby will be vulnerable. But that's the thing, this baby story might make both Oliver and Diggle question the way of their life, where every day they face death. Especially, I can see Diggle trying to re-evaluate his priorities once the child is born. The baby was not a choice for both of them, it just happened and they have to deal with it the best they can do under the circumstances.

Edited June 5, 2014 by abhi

[BkWurm1]

I think Unthinkable answered the question of whether Felicity can take care of herself. She's not as good a fighter as Sara, not by a long shot, but she can do what needs to be done i.e. put herself in danger and coolly take down the bad guy.

 

It's time she gets a tazer or at least borrows one of Oliver's trick arrows. 

 

It doesn't make sense any more since everyone Oliver/Arrow knows whether in a relationship or not is a target (Moira, Thea, Laurel, Quentin) and merely by working with him makes Felicity one too.  But I wouldn't be at all surprised is Oliver continues to use that rationalization to keep her at arm's length.

 

I was watching Identity and Slade warns Olver not to get too close to Shado because she's a distraction.  And a distraction will get you killed.  Perhaps this will be the new "I can't be with someone I could really care about"

Edited June 5, 2014 by BkWurm1

[penga]

First time poster. I'm doing a season 1 re-watch and while Laurel and Oliver are definitely not as cringeworthy as I first felt on initial viewing, they really do have not much in the way of warmth or romantic chemistry.

 

I just watched episode 19, Salvation, and this episode shows Oliver in the aftermath of Helena/McKenna, and he's feeling all alone and lonely and isolated. Diggle insists on taking him out to dinner and cautions him against wrapping himself up in the "hood" life and foregoing making personal connections. Dig tells him that although Oliver's been away from the island for almost 8 months, it's as if he has never really left.

 

Then later in the episode Oliver walks outside Verdant and stands looking lost in the street, aimless. Romantic music begins (Stay by Rihanna) and then Laurel steps out of a cab. I think the way this scene played out on paper, Oliver is supposed to see Laurel and she is like a lighthouse on his bleak island, a familiar, much beloved face who is supposed to light his way back home (or something). They chat for a while and then he asks her if she wants to go out for coffee or dinner sometime. She asks "why?" in a rather hostile tone. He says "because I don't want to be on an island anymore".

 

Now this is quite a profound statement coming from Oliver. The episode title is "Salvation" and it's as though he is literally looking at her for a lifeline. His eyes and facial expression are all soft and longing and romantic, Stephen Amell really sells it. But Laurel, ugh, she just pats him on the shoulder in a condescending way and says "ok" and walks away. I mean there is just nothing there. This should have been an epic moment but instead just emphasizes that there is absolutely no charm or warmth between these two. I mean she does try (emphasize try) to give him this coquettish, over the shoulder look as she walks away but the acting choice does not match the intended tone of the scene. This is supposed to be a breakthrough moment for Oliver where we really see his walls starting to come down but it just falls totally flat.

 

In contrast, Oliver then shows up at the lair and gives Felicity the "if you ever need to tell anyone about your day, you can tell me" line. There is so much warmth in that moment which I didn't really notice the first time I watched but which is really obvious when contrasted against the previous L/O scene. It makes you really feel for Oliver because it's as if he didn't get any reciprocity from Laurel but he is still willing to be that shoulder for someone else.

 

I don't know, these producers have a very hard sell ahead of them if they want to convince us that L/O are "soul mates". There is just no "there" there.

[abhi]

 

I think Unthinkable answered the question of whether Felicity can take care of herself. She's not as good a fighter as Sara, not by a long shot, but she can do what needs to be done i.e. put herself in danger and coolly take down the bad guy

I hardly think Felicity can take care of herself. Injecting someone with something when they are not focused on you is brave, no doubt, but she didn't take on the bad guy. Oliver and Sara had to come to bail out both Felicity and Laurel. In a physical fight, Felicity will always be a liability and distraction and a prime candidate for kidnapping like Laurel,unless they miraculously give her some fighting skills.

Edited June 5, 2014 by abhi

[wonderwall]

Actually, while I do agree that Felicity isn't as strong as Digg and Oliver, she isn't usually out in the field as much nor does she go out without Oliver or Digg by her side. This is actually why I want to see Digg or Oliver train her more. I want to see Felicity be more capable and kickass. 

 

However, I feel like you misunderstood me when I said I want Oliver and Digg to have a chat about relationships and how to deal with them. I didn't intend to mean that Digg/Lyla should be set as an example for Oliver/Felicity. I want Digg to tell Oliver that regardless of whether they're together or not, Felicity will always be in danger because she does work for the Arrow. I want him to tell Oliver that just because he's the vigilante, doesn't mean he can stop living his own life. I think this notion is what all heroes go through. I would like to see Oliver go through this dilemma too.

 

In that finale, Oliver essentially did what he tried to avoid for two seasons, and that was putting Felicity in danger. But the thing is though, is that when they worked as a team, Oliver got a glimpse of the insane amount of bravery Felicity has... working with her also prompted him to fight smarter in order to take down Slade, and I feel that's going to affect how Oliver feels about keeping the ones he loves at arms length. 

 

I'm interested to see in how it does change Oliver though. Will he be more accepting of his feelings? Or will he still keep her at arms length because he thinks that she deserves better? Or, will he forget what happened in the finale and still be afraid to put her in danger? I hope it's a mix of the first and second. 

[abhi]

I think Felicity working for Oliver doesn't pose too much of a danger in comparison to if she were in a relationship with him. Just look at what happened in the Finale. Slade wasn't going for Felicity until he eavesdropped on the conversation where Oliver confessed to Felicity and then he went straight for her. It would just reinforce the fact in Oliver's mind that he cannot be in relationship with someone who cannot take care of herself. Basically what Amell has been saying in some of his interviews in regards to Felicity as well as Laurel.

[Password]

Well Sara can take care of herself, but did you see Slade catch her by the throat and throw her like shes a doll? Perhaps Slade is an exception because he was on Mirakuru, but anyone involved with Oliver is in danger. He doesn't need to get together with Felicity for this but he could ask that she intensify her training with Diggle just to be somewhat safer.

[BkWurm1]

Of course the reality would be an enemy would target any of the very few people that might know the Arrow. The closer to him the better the bargaining chip but most bad guys don't wait til they've found the love of his life before acting. Most bad guys aren't going to get that personal or specific when anyone he works with would do.

[abhi]

Most big bads would know Oliver's masked identity. Slade knew. Malcom knows. If the league comes then Ra's would know. The point is most of the big bads would know Oliver's real identity, some sooner and some later, and where to hurt him so that he bleeds the most.

 

 

Well Sara can take care of herself, but did you see Slade catch her by the throat and throw her like shes a doll?

Yes, that's the point. Sara and Oliver have accepted the fact that they can die any time and the fact that Sara accompanied Oliver during his vigilante activities enforces this theory. Oliver didn't feel the need to protect Sara no matter how dire the circumstances. But he had to protect Felicity and that was a distraction.

Edited June 5, 2014 by abhi

[HighHopes]

Yes, that's the point. Sara and Oliver have accepted the fact that they can die any time and the fact that Sara accompanied Oliver during his vigilante activities enforces this theory. Oliver didn't feel the need to protect Sara no matter how dire the circumstances. But he had to protect Felicity and that was a distraction.

 

In "Suicide Squad", Felicity told Diggle that "if Slade wants to kill me, he can". To me that line seems to say that she's accepting the fact that she could die, and that there's nothing that Digg or Oliver could do to stop it and it's okay.  I also have a problem with the idea that someone has to be physically strong to be considered a strong person. Felicity is intelligent, and she was able to take down the Clock King herself using her intelligence and not her physical strength. And Oliver didn't protect Felicity until the ruse happened, until then she was by his side fighting with him and Diggle the entire night. 

[somewhereother]

I totally get where you are coming from.  Physically Felicity is not strong. But I do think that is only one facet of strength.

 

Felicity contributes intellectual and tactical strength to the team. I like that the show indicates that there are many different types of strength, and further to that (to a degree) resists pigeonholing each character into one defining trait. It seems that each character contributes in multiple ways. For example, Diggle is tactical, honourable, honest and also physically strong - but it is the combination that makes him great.

 

But he had to protect Felicity and that was a distraction.

I thought that this was why the plan was so brilliant.  Oliver turned the assumptions of 'distraction' and 'weakness' around. He used them against Slade. I loved that this was the premise of the finale (the bait and switch was this IMO)  and it would be good to see more of this in the show as a way to explore how the various strengths of the team can be tested.

 

I also feel compelled to say that there is at least one instance where Oliver would be dead without Felicity (fixing the paddles when he was shot).  As has also been stated many times in this thread, of all the risks Felicity would be exposed to in entering a romantic relationship with Oliver, it may be that the Arrow related ones are the least of her worries!

Edited June 5, 2014 by somewhereother

[tv echo]

Pure speculation, but I think something happened between production of the first half of Season 2 and the second half of Season 2.  Remember the departing montage with Slade saying he'll take away everything Oliver cares about, destroy everyone who follows him, and corrupt those he loves (showing pics of Lance, Roy and Felicity)?  

 

Well, in the second half of Season 2, Slade did try to take away everything Oliver cares about, but he never tried to destroy Roy and he never tried to corrupt Felicity or anyone Oliver loves.

 

The second half of Season 2 just seemed a mish-mash of a lot of different things thrown at us.

Edited June 5, 2014 by tv echo

[Password]

I feel that montage was so deliberate that I decidedly ignored who was actually being shown on the screen at the time. Roy kind of fell into Slade's lap (unless he was watching the team), and even then Roy was annoyed by Oliver which had nothing to do with Slade. Felicity was never corrupted or even thought of by Slade, although Lance did lose his job. None of what Slade actually said panned out. Slade ended up telling Laurel, which again didn't do much and is what I interpreted as corrupt those he loves. Slade dropped truth bombs. The one thing he did do though was tear Thea away from Oliver.

[Sakura12]

When Slade showed up in the lair, who did Oliver have to protect? Felicity. While Sara and Diggle dodged bullets and went to attack Slade, Oliver stayed there protecting Felicity when it would've made more sense for them to all attack Slade at once not one at a time. 

 

I'm not saying Felicity isn't a strong woman, she is. She's intelligent and brave and is an essential member of the team. However she is still a liability out in the field. When the bullets are flying or the swords are slicing Oliver would have to worry about her getting hurt more than the actual mission. With Dig and Sara he wouldn't be have to worry as much because they know how to handle themselves in those situations. 

 

Obviously Oliver can't protect everyone he cares about from harm. Especially since his way to protect them is the push them away, because he thinks that bad guy will think "look Oliver pushed them away he must not care about them anymore". Which is the dumbest thing Oliver does ( and he does a lot of dumb things). Felicity's life will be in danger by hanging out with Oliver, but it will be in more danger if she hangs out with him outside of work or in the field with him. When she has no training at all. So if they start giving Felicity some training (I recommend Krav Maga) or give her a mini version of Sara's sonic scream and/or mace or something. I will accept her going out into the field more. 

Edited June 5, 2014 by Sakura12

[HighHopes]

I'm on mobile so I can quote but technically the lair isn't in the field. They assumed that that was a "safe" place. Felicity rarely goes into the field, and when she does it's because her knowledge in technology is needed. So if she shouldn't be in the field and since the field now includes the lair, where should she be? When she is in the field Ahe doesn't run up and attempt to engage in a fight And would it have really helped for all three of them to attack Slade in the lair? From what we were shown nothing could stop him so I'm not sure how having all three attack him at the same time would have worked?

Felicity can fight and defend herself, she just fights differently then in the physical way that the rest of the characters do and that's a good thing. She's proven she can fight, it was her who took down the Clock King and Sara who was also there. But that being said, she should have some more training and she should be carrying something on her.

[quarks]

Pure speculation, but I think something happened between production of the first half of Season 2 and the second half of Season 2.

 

 

I responded to this in the general episode thread. 

 

When she is in the field Ahe doesn't run up and attempt to engage in a fight

 

 

 

Well, to be fair she did run over Isabel with the van. 

[Sakura12]

Oliver had his lair in the dumbest place, so people finding it is on him. It's not like he looked around to see if he was being followed every time he walked into his lair. So I never considered the lair a safe place. And if Felicity gets attacked there that just proves that Oliver has to constantly watch out of her every time he leaves. The main fact is if Felicity is part of the team she needs training or a something to help her out if she is attacked since Oliver can't be there all the time to protect her. 

 

They also need better security in their lair, like getting a warning on their phones if someone other than the approved people are in the lair. So they would know ahead of time or if Oliver is out in the field and Felicity's there alone she'll be warned ahead of time, they would also need an secondary or more escape routes if that happens. Felicity has magical tech powers I'm sure she could make something like that. 

Edited June 5, 2014 by Sakura12

[writersblock51]

I definitely think Felicity needs training.  As for the lair location, I think it was a matter of Pros and Cons for the first 2 seasons because of what property Oliver had access to and then Verdant.  Was it truly secure?  No.

 

Slade likely had figured out a way to get around whatever security measures Felicity had established at the lair, too.    So hopefully the new lair will have even more security measures.

 

The only person who didn't seem the least bit interested in beefing up Felicity's physical/defensive skills was Oliver.  And we never were told or shown why.  Diggle and Sara worked directly with her. 

 

EBR's trainer apparently tweeted that she's been working out more.  Maybe Felicity will get some more training in S3.  I hope so!

Edited June 5, 2014 by writersblock51

[Password]

But that being said, she should have some more training and she should be carrying something on her.

 

I've thought that if she's not that great with the fighting, Diggle can teach her about weaponry. A Glock can put a villain out just as well as a ninja kick.

The only person who didn't seem the least bit interested in beefing up Felicity's physical/defensive skills was Oliver. 

 

That's actually something I don't understand. He knows she goes on missions sometimes but we never get any dialogue about her training. We rarely even see it happening. If Oliver had it his way I doubt she'd actually be in the field. Or I'm assuming because he hasn't said a word about it. When she had work out clothes on in the Clock King episode he almost seemed incensed when he asked her what she's wearing. Really didn't like that episode.

[dtissagirl]

I just end up thinking the "because of the life that I lead" speech -- and the fact that Amell invoked it to explain why there might be truth behind the ILY -- makes Sara/Oliver look even more terrible within the storyline. So Oliver can be with someone he really cares about if she's got ninja fighting skills? That's it? If Felicity starts training then she obtains relationship-worthy status? What? Or is it that Oliver only cares a little bit/enough for Sara, instead of REALLY caring about her?

 

The speech is not even the first time we see Oliver rationalizing that his vigilanting puts a damper on his romantic life. I mean, in S1 when he thinks he can retire after the Undertaking is stopped, he runs to Laurel at full speed, Tommy's feelings be damned. It's like Laurel's literally his prize after the successful completion of his quest. The fact that it all ends up horribly only solidified in Oliver's mind that him having an all-in relationship ruins people's lives. Thus giving the speech to Felicity -- who Oliver has obviously put in a "DO NOT TOUCH" box in his mind. And if Oliver is telling himself he can't be with Felicity because she can't defend herself in a fight -- Amell talked about exactly that after 213. Sara can defend herself, so he can be with her -- yeah, no, I can't explain that. It's still a terrible rationale.

 

It all reeks of external factors to the storyline in place, really, and the fact that Amell is clinging to the speech as the explanation as to why F/O can't be together falls flat. There are much better reasons, the main one being Oliver's emotional development has been arrested for the five years he was in the island/Hong Kong/Russia, and he obviously has no idea how to have a healthy relationship.

[Password]

The speech is not even the first time we see Oliver rationalizing that his vigilanting puts a damper on his romantic life. I mean, in S1 when he thinks he can retire after the Undertaking is stopped, he runs to Laurel at full speed, Tommy's feelings be damned. It's like Laurel's literally his prize after the successful completion of his quest.

 

You just reminded me of that horrible situation where he slept with Laurel knowing Tommy wasn't over her. Seriously what is wrong with this show and the Lance sisters? They, with the help of a gracious Oliver, bring nothing but misery and discomfort to me as I watch their train wreck of a triangle. And then Tommy was included in it! Unacceptable.

 

Also does it mean Oliver doesn't really care about Sara if he's in a relationship with her? Saying it's OK because she can fight is literally making a story up as you go along.

[MsSchadenfreude]

My problem with the danger in field argument regarding Felicity is that it assumes things that may not necessarily be true.  One that only Felicity would be a distraction for Oliver in the field when we have seen onscreen that is very much not the case. Roy, Sara and Diggle have all been distractions as well.  Two, that all field operations equate to being in mortal peril.  Again, we've seen onscreen that isn't true.  Three, that fighting prowess is the only necessary skill for successful field work. Any good commander knows this isn't true. Neither Sara or Oliver's fighting skills would have helped them hack into the onsite Merlyn mainframe, do card counting in a casino or set up perimeter alarms (all of which had to be done in the field, not from the lair).  Every single member of the team, including Oliver himself, can be both a liability and/or an asset depending on the circumstances.

 

I am all for Felicity getting more training, Everyone should be as prepared as they can be for the activities they engage in on a regular basis, but I am not sure I buy that being romantically involved is a step too far on the danger scale.  Though, I do think Oliver has convinced himself he should not be involved with someone he cares about because of "the danger" unless they can physical take care of themselves because that easier then dealing with the fact that even if he wasn't doing this Arrow thing, he would still be a danger (emotionally and/or mentally) in a romantic relationship.

 

Will Oliver eventually figure out the obvious flaws in his danger argument (regarding whoever becomes his romantic interest)? Maybe, maybe not.  And that doesn't even get into the fact that if he does figure it out, will his romantic interest still be interested in him.    

[writersblock51]

I think the 'can't be with the one I love' thing that Oliver (and possibly, SA, too) has going on is a fairly typical Hero Thing.  Maybe the show will explore the ridiculousness of it as time goes on.  I think they've shown some of that already with Sara and Felicity's various skill sets on the Team.

[statsgirl]

I think the way this scene played out on paper, Oliver is supposed to see Laurel and she is like a lighthouse on his bleak island, a familiar, much beloved face who is supposed to light his way back home (or something). They chat for a while and then he asks her if she wants to go out for coffee or dinner sometime. She asks "why?" in a rather hostile tone. He says "because I don't want to be on an island anymore"....

In contrast, Oliver then shows up at the lair and gives Felicity the "if you ever need to tell anyone about your day, you can tell me" line. There is so much warmth in that moment which I didn't really notice the first time I watched but which is really obvious when contrasted against the previous L/O scene. It makes you really feel for Oliver because it's as if he didn't get any reciprocity from Laurel but he is still willing to be that shoulder for someone else.

I don't know, these producers have a very hard sell ahead of them if they want to convince us that L/O are "soul mates". There is just no "there" there.

Those two scenes really struck me in a way that Laurel wasn't the intended love interest, Felicity was.  Oliver was looking to connect and Laurel shut him down, albeit with a squeeze on the arm, and then he went down to Diggle and Felicity, the people he can connect to, and told Felicity she would have him to rely on (which kind of plays into the "you'll never lose me" in Heir to the Demon).

 

I can see a conversation with Diggle and Oliver, much like the one in that episode about opening up to others, next season about family the costs and benefits of  having one, and what you do to protect them.

 

 

The only person who didn't seem the least bit interested in beefing up Felicity's physical/defensive skills was Oliver.  And we never were told or shown why.  Diggle and Sara worked directly with her.

Maybe it's on purpose, that it never occurred to Oliver to see her as someone who could fight just as someone he needed to protect, while Diggle and Sara did see all that she could do.  Maybe that will change next season after Unthinkable when he's seen she is someone he can send out into the field.  In Time of Death she needed Sara and the Team to save her.

[wonderwall]

I interrupt your heated conversations with two married idiots struggling with their 'ski masks':

 

 

 

Original gifs found here: X

Also, that tumblr makes really hilarious pic recaps! You should all check 'em out!

[Sakura12]

What was actually really hilarious about that scene was the two trained in covert missions (Diggle and Sara) cut the middle part out of the mask, since it's easier to put it on that way and they've probably done it before. I kind of liked that little detail. It's also funny because they probably watched those two struggle with the mask and didn't say anything and glanced at each other thinking "newbies"

 

Edited June 6, 2014 by Sakura12

[Velocity23]

Team Arrow parodies:

 

 

Edited June 6, 2014 by Velocity23

[wonderwall]

You know what I love about Team Arrow though? Oliver chose to trust the two people who didn't buy his shit the minute they met him, he chose to tell them his secret because even though they see right through him, he knew they were worthy of knowing his true identity. It's funny how two complete strangers could see right through him and his blatant lies when the ones Oliver was closest to pre-island didn't really. It just goes to show that you don't need history to truly know a person.

Edited June 6, 2014 by wonderwall

[Zalyn]

After recovering from the "WTF"ery, I'm pleased to see that JibJab knows who does not belong on Team Arrow.

[Luckylyn]

I found this great

video that really captures how they came together as a team.

[tv echo]

What a great Team Arrow video!  Thank you for the link, Luckylyn.

[Luckylyn]

I found another Team Arrow

 

I really love this team.  For me the shows at it's best when the main trio are being featured.

[statsgirl]

There is one scene in that video that struck me.  Oliver and Diggle are practice fighting each other on the mat and in the background Felicity has her back to them, typing on her computer keyboard.  I love all the " I need you"/"I have your back" stuff but that one scene encapsulated Team Arrow for me.

[Zalyn]

 

I didn't really notice the first time I watched but which is really obvious when contrasted against the previous L/O scene. It makes you really feel for Oliver because it's as if he didn't get any reciprocity from Laurel but he is still willing to be that shoulder for someone else.

 

I don't know, these producers have a very hard sell ahead of them if they want to convince us that L/O are "soul mates". There is just no "there" there.

So, I have a confession: I've been mainlining Castle for the past couple weeks (so many people told me to watch it), and while it's a comedy, I feel like they do a lot of things correctly in setting up "endgame romance with lots of spats in-between."

 

The two leads always focus on each other - Fillion is exceptional in general, but he just studies his costar in so many scenes where he's just in the background or not actively doing anything - he is always present with her (Katic does this too, especially when he's flirting with someone).  And it's clear that the writers really focused on ways to set up heated disagreement and clash of styles while also maintaining a level of warmth and genuineness - part of that is conveyed by supporting cast reaction shots - they'll smirk knowingly or shoot each other a "when will they stop fighting and start humping?" look.  That goes a long way towards communicating to the audience how we're supposed to read a scene. 

 

I'm not very knowledgeable about show writing and differences between dramas and comedies, but I feel that these techniques aren't limited to genre or network; they seem pretty standard tools for effective writing of characters. 

 

I noted this before when we compared fan shipping vids of Felicity/Oliver and Laurel/Oliver - most of the L/O scenes are done with just the two of them while many F/O scenes have Diggle as our reacting person.  But I think that beyond simply not writing other characters to be around to show approval at L/O, the bigger problem is that in the story there really isn't anyone who could play that role.  L/O has been written to be an isolating relationship that no one can really support or give thoughts on - Sister Swap ruled out Sara, Det Lance gets his gun when Oliver gets near his daughters, Felicity and Thea have no real relationship with Laurel that is useable, Diggle has no relationship with Laurel, Roy has no relationship, etc.  So L/O defaults to always having scenes alone with each other.

 

But even there, they don't really do anything other than talk about their relationship.  Again, to compare to Castle, the leads are working together to solve crimes, and so they are constantly throwing out ideas, butting heads, disagreeing, then finally coming to inspiration together - it's talk-sex and it's done very smartly yet passionately.  If L/O could solve things together more often, that would give opportunities for the writers to write more "do-gooder foreplay" that can draw energy from other things than their (lack of) romantic connection.

[Danny Franks]

Zalyn, I take it you're still on season 2 of Castle, then. Because pretty much from the last arc of that season, the show began its descent into shitty writing, horrendous character inconsistencies and shock value over substance. For me, it's pretty much the top of my, 'shows that I once loved but ended up loathing' list. Even worse because the utter garbage of the last three seasons has completely sullied the first two for me.

 

If Arrow ever went that way with Felicity and Oliver, I'd straight up quit the show. When I'm watching something and get completely taken out of a scene and have to stop and think, 'why the fuck did they think that was a good idea?' rather than just being absorbed and thinking, 'why did the character do that?', and when I end up thinking that both characters, either alternately or together, are complete assholes, then it's a fail. And generally, most romance on television is handled with the emotional maturity of adolescents, in my view. So there's always the fear for me that the Arrow writers will fall into all the same traps that the Castle writers did.

[tv echo]

Another great Team Arrow video.  In the past, I've read of shows that expanded their main cast in order to have more scope in storytelling.  But I think that's just the fault of the showrunners and writers - lack of imagination and poor writing.  There have been plenty of shows which have been quite successful with a limited cast (example, The X-Files lasted almost 10 years with two main cast members).

 

Season 2 of Arrow demonstrated what happens when you have too many characters introduced, dropped, forgotten, sidelined, mismanaged, etc.  Stick to the core 3 as Team Arrow, with other characters as supporting or recurring characters.

Edited June 8, 2014 by tv echo

[quarks]

Castle is and isn't a good analogy, I think.  The big problem that Castle ran into was that by the second season, the "uh, why aren't these two dating?" was becoming harder than ever to answer, because the show didn't want to focus too much on the only actual reason: Richard Castle was a twice-divorced guy with a lot of other women - since focusing on that didn't make the show's protagonist/hero look very good.  In that sense, that relationship is actually a bit closer to Laurel/Oliver - where every time Laurel/Oliver is brought up, it makes Oliver look terrible. 

 

But that was the only obstacle between Castle/Beckett. Otherwise, they were two single people who were obviously attracted to each other, shared the same interests and values, could finish each other's sentences, and worked well together. This was a big issue for a show that didn't want to put the main couple together too quickly, so instead, the writers started contriving various other blocks/obstacles to answer the "uh, why aren't these two dating" question - and many of these obstacles did feel contrived.  Bones had an easier time of it since those personalities were more dramatically opposed, but also ended up falling into the contrivance pit.

 

(And then you have X-Files, which in seasons seven, eight and nine decided to solve things with "well, they MAY be sleeping together/may have slept together and Mulder MAY be the father of Scully's kid or maybe aliens but really, why should we bother you, our viewers, with details like this?"  For all the fun Arrow likes to have with the mystery of Oliver's island no actually Hong Kong, sorry past, I don't think the show will go there.)

 

In this sense, Arrow has a similar problem, with "Why don't you kiss the girl already," with Oliver/Felicity - if they decide to stick with this as the main romance for next season (which I don't think, right now, is guaranteed) - they will run into, and in fact have already run into, the issue that these are two very attractive and single people fiercely devoted to the same cause - in many ways, more so than Castle/Beckett ever were. There is a limit to how long an audience tends to tolerate this.  

 

Having said that, Arrow has one major advantage over Castle at this point: whatever can or can't be said about Richard Castle, he just divorced his ex-wives, and both of them are still speaking to him and seem to be more or less ok.  Oliver's exes have ended up shot and needing major physical therapy, in jail, dead, addicted to drugs, kidnapped, tortured or forced to join an international group of assassins even if Nyssa's hotness has to have been a slight mitigating factor. The only exes who seem to have escaped this sort of thing is the mother of Oliver's kid, who still ended up having to leave her home and rebuild her life and raise her kid as a single parent (though I'm really hoping she's dating or married to someone else by now) which can't have been easy, and the woman who was going to marry Max Fuller (and maybe did anyway, although Max Fuller's response suggests not.)  This is all above and beyond the issue that Oliver has severe, severe emotional issues and anger management issues, and the whole life that he leads argument.

 

Incidentally, in rewatching the first season there's a lot more of the "life that I lead" argument than I remembered. Tommy, Diggle and Thea all tell Oliver that being alone is not a good thing, something Oliver generally responds to with the observation that wow, has he been bad for the women in his life, and, post McKenna, with Oliver telling Diggle and Tommy that his life precludes a relationship. The show is pretty clear and open in acknowledging that Oliver only goes back to Laurel at the end of the first season because he's convinced that once the Undertaking is gone, he can stop being the Hood and it will be safe for him to be with her. When he makes the decision to back to being Arrow, he also backs off from Laurel, with the show being pretty clear that whatever Oliver's actual feelings for Laurel are at this point (I'd say back to just friendship, but, this show) Oliver feels that he can't be both the Arrow and be with Laurel.

 

Anyway, this setup means that, as frustrated as I am with the whole "because of the life I lead" argument, given that Felicity is already in danger just working with Arrow, and Sara's ability to defend herself doesn't mean that she's risking her life any less, Oliver, the show has put together a pretty convincing case that a) Oliver is not really relationship material right now and b) really has been terrible for most of the women he's been with, which gives the show a pretty good answer to the "uh, why aren't those two dating right now?" question. Because he's Oliver Queen.

[Sakura12]

They could've just had Oliver say he's not good relationship material or not ready or looking to be in a relationship with the life he leads, which are both true statements and would've shown some growth in Oliver's character. He wasn't really dating Sara, it was more for comfort and sex than an actual relationship. Felicity would want a relationship, not just sex. 

 

Which is why Felicity needs to get out the lair once in awhile and go on some dates or hang out with friends. If Oliver and Diggle have time for to see other people so should she. She shouldn't be sitting around in front the computers in the lair all day while those two get to have fun. 

[tv echo]

There's a very understandable reason why Oliver and Felicity would be reluctant to get involved romantically right now.  They're two very necessary components of Team Arrow whose primary mission is to save the city.  They can't afford to jeopardize their working relationship/friendship/trust.  If they hooked up and it ended badly, then it would be difficult for them to continue working together.

[KirkB]

Ten bucks says the kid will appear because his mother just died (perhaps under mysterious circumstances) and he or she has no other family. How the connection is made to Oliver I have no idea, and I bet they won't either.

[Sakura12]

Doing anything else would require the story to make sense, and that is not their main purpose when telling the story. 

 

Malcolm's back from the dead, who cares why. Sara and Oliver hook up, why? who cares. Oliver can't be with someone he cares about because it's dangerous, when everyone that knows him is in danger anyway. Why care about the story when you can just do things, because. 

[catrox14]

Doing anything else would require the story to make sense, and that is not their main purpose when telling the story. 

 

Malcolm's back from the dead, who cares why. Sara and Oliver hook up, why? who cares. Oliver can't be with someone he cares about because it's dangerous, when everyone that knows him is in danger anyway. Why care about the story when you can just do things, because. 

 

I didn't mind Malcolm coming back only because we know he's been to Nanda Parbat and said "Death is an illusion" so I think it's not an unreasonable fanwank that he visited the Lazarus Pit or just that he was smart enough to fake his own death.  He's Thea's father so he has a reason for being in the show. Plus it's John Fucking Barrowman! ;)   I do wish they told us how he survived but if it was through the Lazarus Pit maybe they can't tell us specifically for DC reasons?

[Danny Franks]

In this sense, Arrow has a similar problem, with "Why don't you kiss the girl already," with Oliver/Felicity - if they decide to stick with this as the main romance for next season (which I don't think, right now, is guaranteed) - they will run into, and in fact have already run into, the issue that these are two very attractive and single people fiercely devoted to the same cause - in many ways, more so than Castle/Beckett ever were. There is a limit to how long an audience tends to tolerate this.

 

 

I think they do have a good answer for that at the moment, though. That answer being, 'Oilver thinks he's being noble and strong by resisting his feelings for Felicity, because he thinks he'd be no good for her'. To me, that remains the crux of his argument in 2x06. Not that she would be in physical danger due to her relationship with him, but that she would be in serious danger of being hurt by his inability to be the guy he thinks she would deserve. Just like Laurel was hurt so much due to his selfishness before his sojourn to the island.

 

That;s a reason that can be played out for some time yet, I think. They could showcase the growing feelings once every few episodes without putting too much pressure on the writing. After a while, they could even begin to play it more on the nose, with both characters being somewhat open about what's happening. Felicity getting frustrated because she doesn't believe in his reasons for holding back, Oliver being noble in his manpain and angst, Diggle being the long-suffering adult having to deal with the hormones and emotional flare ups and Roy generally being oblivious because he can't walk and think at the same time. They could begin to tease that out through the third, and perhaps even fourth season, as long as they did make sure to give Felicity her own agency and her own life, so she doesn't just become Oliver's prize, to be claimed when he finally becomes a real boy.

 

So this is why I think it would fit into the long term plans for Oliver as a protagonist. Season 1 was about him reconnecting with the city, with his family, and it was about him embarking on his crusade. Season 2 was about him wanting to be seen as a hero. He didn't want to be a shadowy menace any more, he wanted people to like him, both as the Arrow and as Oliver Queen, CEO. So it makes sense to me if season 3 built on that and focused on him starting to want to be happy, to have a life of his own, alongside his quest. Can he fit it in? Can he be the guy he wants to be, with a woman he wants to be with? The show has touched on it before, and he's come up short. But we've seen so many of the reasons why, and I think it's time for him to start moving past them.

[Zalyn]

Zalyn, I take it you're still on season 2 of Castle, then. Because pretty much from the last arc of that season, the show began its descent into shitty writing, horrendous character inconsistencies and shock value over substance. For me, it's pretty much the top of my, 'shows that I once loved but ended up loathing' list. Even worse because the utter garbage of the last three seasons has completely sullied the first two for me.

Ah, good to know; I'll hold off on buying the later seasons (just finish S3). 

 

I don't advocate that approach for Felicity/Oliver; they have a completely different dynamic. And personally, I would rather that the writing stay lighter and they just let SA and EBR do their on-screen chemistry.  Heck, a loving relationship that isn't about "Tru Wuv" would be refreshing (I could envision a hookup between them done in all good faith, and they just decide it's not quite right). 

 

I was drawing on Castle more to show that it is entirely possible to show chemistry in a snarky relationship loaded with clash, as it seems Laurel/Oliver have, and to emphasize how the Arrow crew just isn't selling their connection to the audience effectively even as we keep hearing lip service about it. I have a feeling that if they had flavored it more like S1-2 of Castle, there would be more people open to L/O based on what was seen on screen.

 

(Didn't mean to open a Castle of Worms - just excited to share an example to  support my point. I prefer to say, "Here's a way that could have worked" rather than to just say, "They suck" when I can bring in a case to look at.)

[dtissagirl]

I think they do have a good answer for that at the moment, though. That answer being, 'Oilver thinks he's being noble and strong by resisting his feelings for Felicity, because he thinks he'd be no good for her'. To me, that remains the crux of his argument in 2x06. Not that she would be in physical danger due to her relationship with him, but that she would be in serious danger of being hurt by his inability to be the guy he thinks she would deserve. Just like Laurel was hurt so much due to his selfishness before his sojourn to the island.

 

This was my reasoning right after 206 -- it wasn't that Felicity might be in danger from Oliver's enemies, it's that Oliver is pretty emotionally damaged, and still suffering from PTSD, and really unable to be in a healthy relationship. He was the danger, not of getting Felicity killed, but of hurting her feelings. And up until 213 I really thought his speech was about the fact that Oliver truly believed Felicity deserves someone better than him -- which in turn made her "I think you deserve better than her" line all that more powerful. At that point, I really bought it that Oliver didn't believe he deserved someone like Felicity.

 

But then Oliver hooked up with Sara and I just went bzuuuh? So Felicity deserves someone better than Oliver, but Sara doesn't, so he can have a relationship with her? I'm realizing right now that maybe Stephen Amell is clinging to that b.s. about how Sara can fight and Felicity can't as the meaning behind "because of the life that I lead", because it is the only way he can rationalize the fact that the plot basically turned Sara into chopped liver in this matter. Her emotional health really did not matter one bit to the advancement of the plot.

[statsgirl]

To briefly digress on to Castle, which along with Arrow and occasionally OUaT are the three shows I talk about:

 

Castle is and isn't a good analogy, I think.  The big problem that Castle ran into was that by the second season, the "uh, why aren't these two dating?" was becoming harder than ever to answer,

After the suits watched the pilot and decided to pick up the show, the note that came down was to dial back the UST for both characters because it looked like they were ready to jump into bed with each other.  Creator Andrew Marlowe had to hit the brakes hard.

 

I think one of the biggest mistakes showrunners make is that they don't know when to end the 'will they/won't they' and put the characters together in an enjoyable way that doesn't ruin the show (e.g. making it all about the relationship rather than crime-fighting, or having them get together, break up, get together again (yuck)).  Whether it's because it's a different kind of writing for two characters who are in a relationship or because someone is afraid that giving the lead a permanent relationship will hurt the show, or because the show runner is putting himself on screen (as I suspect the HIMYM ones were), I think dragging things out too long hurt the show.  The only contrivance that ever made sense to me was Buffy not being able to sleep with Angel because he would turn into Angelus and even that only lasted a short time.

 

As someone who enjoyed both Macmillan and Wife and Hart To Hart, I didn't see what the problem was about getting Castle and Beckett together.  I gave up on Bones for that reason, and I have a suspicion that if Emily Deschanels hadn't got pregnant, Booth and Bones would still be single.

 

I still haven't bought the DVDs of seasons 3 and 4 of Castle when both Beckett and Castle turned into idiots with all the plot contrivances to keep them apart. I've enjoyed the last few seasons a lot, including this seasons finale which many people hated, because I enjoy seeing them together, rather than worrying about whether they will be together. 

 

I think part of the problem is that the showrunners don't know how long the show is going to be on the air so it's very difficult to plot properly.  J.M. Strazynski did it well in planning Babylon 5 for a five season arc, and then he had to mess it up when they thought they weren't going to get a 5th season.  The way TV works really hobbles those who want to produce good quality shows. 

 

To relate this to Arrow, I don't want 1) Oliver doing the James T. Kirk manwhore thing with a few different women every season; or 2) getting together with someone only to break up again, wash, rinse, repeat (Marc Guggenheim's idea of romance) or 3) the show to be about the relationship with Diggle and other characters swept aside.

 

Whether Oliver gets together with Sara or with Felicity (not with Laurel, please), I want it to be written as an adult relationship and have Team Arrow concentrate on defeating the villains and supervillains.  (This is something I can also see on Once Upon a Time, with Hook and Emma being badass warriors together.)  Just cut the 'will they/won't they' to a minimum.

 

So it makes sense to me if season 3 built on that and focused on him starting to want to be happy, to have a life of his own, alongside his quest. Can he fit it in? Can he be the guy he wants to be, with a woman he wants to be with?

It makes sense to me to make that a season-long arc 

which is why I don't understand why the question of whether Oliver was telling the truth in Unthinkable about Felicity needs to be early in the season, as Stephen Amell said.

 

ETA: 

the plot basically turned Sara into chopped liver in this matter. Her emotional health really did not matter one bit to the advancement of the plot.

I fanwank that for Oliver, Sara was a FWB relationship, which is why he was surprised that she interpreted the 'let's find a place we can live' to equal asking her to move in with him. For Felicity, who seems to be very inexperienced in relationships, he knows that she would interpret any move towards her as real romantic feelings.

Edited June 8, 2014 by statsgirl

[Danny Franks]

But then Oliver hooked up with Sara and I just went bzuuuh? So Felicity deserves someone better than Oliver, but Sara doesn't, so he can have a relationship with her? I'm realizing right now that maybe Stephen Amell is clinging to that b.s. about how Sara can fight and Felicity can't as the meaning behind "because of the life that I lead", because it is the only way he can rationalize the fact that the plot basically turned Sara into chopped liver in this matter. Her emotional health really did not matter one bit to the advancement of the plot.

 

 

While I still think Oliver/Sara came out of nowhere, in the show, and wasn't built up at all adequately, I do think I can fanwank Oliver's reasoning over it. I think that Oliver could see Sara as someone who was as emotionally damaged as him, and so could understand his limitations as a romantic partner. I think there was an element of compromise to it, not unlike his liaison with Isabel.

 

Sara wasn't "someone better" in terms of long-term relationship prospects. I don't think she could emotionally commit any more than Oliver could, or at least that's the way Oliver saw it. And them being together was more about clinging to the past and to their shared history than attempting to embrace a future they could share. So with that, I think Oliver didn't see her as someone he could really hurt, because expectations were so low. And he knew that it would never be that way with Felicity.

 

The writing of the arc, and the fact that everything ends up being about Oliver and not the other characters is another problem, and one the writers would do well to overcome. I've no idea who hit on the 'bright' idea that everything should be viewed through the lens of how it affects Oliver Queen, reducing all other characters to secondary concerns, but that person should be fired.

[dtissagirl]

Sara wasn't "someone better" in terms of long-term relationship prospects. I don't think she could emotionally commit any more than Oliver could, or at least that's the way Oliver saw it. And them being together was more about clinging to the past and to their shared history than attempting to embrace a future they could share. So with that, I think Oliver didn't see her as someone he could really hurt, because expectations were so low. And he knew that it would never be that way with Felicity.

 

That's a really great rationale. I think you just pointed out what I was missing -- the S/O relationship had no real stakes because neither Oliver nor Sara were really committed. It works within the story, but I guess I'm putting too much weight on what TPTB were saying offscreen. After the finale, it all makes sense, I guess -- they needed to push S/O as a real relationship in which Oliver was invested, because it worked into getting all the characters set up for the finale ILY fake out.

 

 

The writing of the arc, and the fact that everything ends up being about Oliver and not the other characters is another problem, and one the writers would do well to overcome. I've no idea who hit on the 'bright' idea that everything should be viewed through the lens of how it affects Oliver Queen, reducing all other characters to secondary concerns, but that person should be fired.

 

There was an interview with Guggenheim in which he said each episode starts with the writers asking themselves "what is the Oliver of this episode?" It really would do them some good if they start breaking the episodes with more characters in mind, to avoid what happened with Sara in S2. We really never know what she's getting out of her relationship with Oliver, because the writing never bothered to show us.

Edited June 8, 2014 by dancingnancy

[SmallScreenDiva]

@Danny Franks, I like your interpretation of the "because of the life that i lead" line. That was my thinking as well, that he was talking more about emotions rather than physical danger. But when the show made him and Sara a couple (*still shaking my head at that), Stephen Amell "explained" that line to mean physical danger, that Sara can take care of herself (a reaction to fans going "Hey, wait now! You said!"). But nevermind, I can still tell myself Sara's emotions are not as much in danger of being hurt as Felicity's. But what happens to the next person Oliver romances who is not Felicity? I think the show backed itself into a corner with that line.

 

ETA: who is NOT Felicity (sorry about that)

Edited June 8, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva