Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[bijoux]

Trying to track down the point where we hear about Laurel ratting out Sara when she wanted to go to an Oliver party. Which episode included this?

According to Wiki, it's 211 Blind Spot.

[tv echo]

There's a site that has transcripts of all Arrow episodes (although they don't identify who says what).  Here's a partial transcript from 2x11-Blind Spot:

Last time I trusted you was right before the "Gambit" went down.
I haven't gotten a chance to say this I'm sorry.
I know this is my fault.
And none of this would have happened if I hadn't invited you on the boat with me.
That's not exactly true.
I mean I was the one who said yes.
And it was only half because of your charm.
And the other half? Do you remember when you spilled that beer on me at Tommy's party?
No. But I never left one of Tommy's parties with my memory intact.
Well, I wasn't even supposed to go. But I snuck out of the house because I knew you were going to be there.
And I had this-- [Laughs] I had this embarrassing crush on you.
And Laurel, she knew it.
And that's why the party got broken up by the cops.
She tipped off our dad.
Then I was grounded for a month, and the next thing I knew You and Laurel were together.
You think she did all that on purpose? Not everybody's what they seem.
We should get some sleep.

http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=10237&sid=681aef70fe3855f65017668e17bba9d4

Edited October 5, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

They really set Laurel up for some kind of mysterious turn with "not everybody's what they seem" and "once you let the darkness in, it never comes out" (or whatever that quote is), and it went absolutely nowhere. 

[hogwash]

I still don't like that scene. There were easier ways to downplay Laurel/Oliver's relationship AND Sara/Oliver's bullshit. Dibs doesn't work on actual people. There's absolutely no justification for screwing your sister's boyfriend

now I want to go watch Like Water for Chocolate again...

. Maybe that's not what that scene was about but that's all I got out of it.

 

They're such horrible sisters. Every season of Arrow is like an endless contest of who can be the worse sister for these two. Sara won handily the first two seasons, but Laurel certainly made up for that in S03.

Can you tell how excited I am for more Lance sister bullshit in S04? I have a feeling Laurel's gonna win this one by a landslide. Yay.

[Sakura12]

I don't feel that Sara was trying to justify her actions, she was just telling Oliver that Laurel isn't perfect because everyone always thought she was. It was however an unnecessary scene. Laurel had a right to be angry and Sara paid for her mistake ten fold. 

 

I do agree that the sister's are horrible to each other. Which is why I don't understand people wanting to see them interact more or think they have a great sister relationship. They are just not that close, not every siblings are close. They make each other worse when they are in scenes together. Laurel ends up taking the brunt of it because Sara is the more popular character. I do think what Sara did was awful, but if I had a choice of who I'd want to see more of. It would be her. She had a better relationship with Quentin, she had a better relationship with Team Arrow, one built from friendship and respect from the very beginning. And watching her and Oliver fight side by side was like seeing comic book Green Arrow and Black Canary come to life. 

 

I'm thrilled that Sara's getting her own show and I hope they keep the Lance sisters scenes to a minimal on either show. Let them be separate, it probably won't stop the comparisons but at least we won't have to see them together. 

[hogwash]

I'm definitely with you on that. I actually wanted to watch Sara and Laurel build a better relationship in the second half of S02. That seemed easy enough to do considering Sara only came to Starling to check up on her family and basically stayed in town to stalk and protect Laurel (despite the wrath of the LOA). But the show glossed over it. Now we get those bizarre smiley sisterhood scenes between them like the jacket handover in S02's finale and their conversation in 301. No thanks.

[apinknightmare]

It's another problem this show has with telling, not showing. We know Sara was staying at Laurel's, so surely they bonded or at least grew infinitesimally closer than they were, but we didn't see that, so it feels like it never happened (because we never got to see even a minute of it). Not that I'm complaining since I really don't care that much about their relationship, but for those who do, it must be disappointing.

[kismet]

I don't feel that Sara was trying to justify her actions, she was just telling Oliver that Laurel isn't perfect because everyone always thought she was. It was however an unnecessary scene. Laurel had a right to be angry and Sara paid for her mistake ten fold. 

 

I do agree that the sister's are horrible to each other. Which is why I don't understand people wanting to see them interact more or think they have a great sister relationship. They are just not that close, not every siblings are close. They make each other worse when they are in scenes together. Laurel ends up taking the brunt of it because Sara is the more popular character. I do think what Sara did was awful, but if I had a choice of who I'd want to see more of. It would be her. She had a better relationship with Quentin, she had a better relationship with Team Arrow, one built from friendship and respect from the very beginning. And watching her and Oliver fight side by side was like seeing comic book Green Arrow and Black Canary come to life. 

 

I'm thrilled that Sara's getting her own show and I hope they keep the Lance sisters scenes to a minimal on either show. Let them be separate, it probably won't stop the comparisons but at least we won't have to see them together. 

Agree with a lot of this. They were horrible to each other. They had ample opportunity to be a better sister and person to each other. I don't understand how anyone can think they had a good sisterly relationship. Even with her problems in s2, your recurring thought when your sister comes back from the dead - should not be it was better off when she was dead, no matter who she slept with. There is no real justification for SL sleeping with & going on a sex cruise with her sister's boyfriend. But they are certainly a lot of valid reasons why it occurred from both SL's & OQ's perspectives. It's also been 5 years, people need to let somethings go or at least give the person the opportunity to show that they have changed (especially when they are family).

 

I think people want the Lance sisters to have a better relationship and that is why people try to be hopeful about

their reunion

. They want to have a healthy sister-sister relationship on the show. I feel like I am one of those people. I don't look forward to it, as much as if it its going to happen I want it to be better and healthier this time around. However,

from all that has been discussed regarding LL's role in SL's resurrection. I do not see how it is going to be better this time around. The writers again seemed to take the worst possible angle to make it happen. So once again, I'm flabbergasted that they want me to believe something about the Lances (esp LL) but go out of their way to make it worst case scenario. The writers hold all the cards and this is the game/deck they decide to play?

Edited October 5, 2015 by kismet

[Primal Slayer]

When Laurel thought she had hallucinated seeing Sara, she was happy to think she was alive and in Season 1 she was on Dinahs side in trying to find out if she had survived the boat. A lot of Laurels hate seemed to come from the booze and drugs. Of course some of it was also Sara being alive all this time and not contacting her family but of course that was before Laurel found out what hell Sara had gone through. I think people see the potential for the two of them to be great together which is what makes them want to be reunited. It's like Sara/Nyssa, those two had plenty of problems when we were introduced to their relationship but people can see the love there and want them back together.

[Sakura12]

I also think from the hell that Sara and Oliver went through, their affair was probably never even on their minds anymore. Every horrible thing that happened to them in those 5/6 years buried that thought deep into the ground. 

 

As for Laurel not knowing what happened to Sara, even after she saw Sara's scars she didn't seem all that interested in finding out what happened to her. A doctor thought Sara had been through a war and all Laurel could muster was a half hearted "where you'd get those scars" then she went to go comfort Oliver. 

 

With Nyssa and Sara, they let us see the love that was there. It was a messed up love, but CL and KL were able to show that they loved each other. Same with Sara and Sin, I saw a sisterly relationship from their very first scenes together. That's the sisterly relationship I'd like to see more of. 

[Primal Slayer]

They totally should have to followed up with the scars though Laurel was already putting all the puzzle pieces together which is why she might not have followed up with it untill they had her confront her about being The Canary. Though it shouldn't have been about 2 episodes when it happened. But Laurel was supportive of Sara and was telling her when she saw her as hero. 

 

They did let us see the love between Nyssa and Sara but swept everything that happened with Nyssa/The Lances under the rug as if it never happened.

[hogwash]

Laurel got over it too. She went to law school and generally had good life. By no means do I think Sara/Oliver need to grovel at Laurel's feet for forgiveness. But she had nothing to do with what happened to them. Their 5 (6? for Sara) years of hell doesn't erase that they screwed her over (by screwing each other). Outside of "it's a show", she has no reason to forgive them. I have no idea why she even talks to them. You can make a family argument for Sara. But people have 0 contact with their family for less. With Oliver, it's even more wtf. He screwed around on her with a bunch of women including her sister AND then got her sister killed. People won't even friend their exes on facebook for less! The show never did a good job with explaining that.

 

I have no idea where I was going with this. Also this conversation is making me remember Time of Death... Bleh. 

 

They did let us see the love between Nyssa and Sara but swept everything that happened with Nyssa/The Lances under the rug as if it never happened.

 

Yup. I don't know why the show insists on pretending Nyssa didn't try to literally murder every single member of the Lance family. It's definitely works better than the bullshit they've been trying to pull with Malcolm, but it's still freaking weird.

 

Edit: It's still hilarious to me that this is the actual backstory a show came up with for its main romance. 

Edited October 5, 2015 by hogwash

[Sakura12]

Doesn't Quentin still hate Nyssa? 

 

I could understand Sara still trusting Nyssa because she did save her life. I also think Sara had a little Stockholm syndrome with Nyssa just like she did with Ivo. I could also go with Sara doesn't think she's any different than Nyssa, she's probably killed or hurt people's families to get what she wanted with the League. So she figures Nyssa did the only thing she knows how to do, to make a point. I don't know why Laurel got all buddy with buddy with Nyssa, she did try to kill her. I have to fanwank that was just another step to SWF her sister's life.

 

I enjoyed what little we got of Nyssa and Sara, but would much rather see Sara find someone else male or female. 

[dtissagirl]

Does Laurel even know that Nyssa poisoned her, and kidnapped Dinah?

[AyChihuahua]

 

He screwed around on her with a bunch of women including her sister AND then got her sister killed.

I agree with everything except that Oliver got Sara killed.  He just invited her on a boat trip.  There was no possible way for him to know how that would end.  And I say that as Oliver's current biggest non-fan.  

 

I have always thought a more typical reaction would be for Laurel to be happy Oliver was alive but want nothing to do with him.  I'd think she'd have much more motivation to forgive/want to be around Sara than Oliver.

Does Laurel even know that Nyssa poisoned her, and kidnapped Dinah?

Yes.  She says something like that to Sara in the "you stole my life" speech.  (Or at least she knows Sara brought some "crazy assassins" around who did that.  I guess it's possible she doesn't know, even now, that it was Nyssa.)

Edited October 5, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Starfish35]

It's still hilarious to me that this is the actual backstory a show came up with for its main romance.

I always figured it was done as a way to acknowledge the cheating from the comics and put it in the past. But it was done so very very badly. Apart from the issue of the actors' lack of chemistry, I don't think they ever once gave us one positive flashback for them. We were never once shown any reason at all why this couple was supposedly so in love with each other. We were just supposed to believe that they were fated soulmates, but they never gave us a reason to believe in that relationship. Why was a girl like Laurel interested in someone like Oliver? Why did Oliver keep going back to Laurel?

And now that I'm thinking of it, I think that's one of the (many) problems. Oliver cheating on Laurel once might have been forgiven, but it's really hard to do that when the implication is that he was doing it constantly. The first season tried really hard to sell this epic love, but it was really hard to get around the huge "WHY" when looking at their past.

If they had taken the approach that they were both messed up back then and are different people now, and had them both start over from ground up learning who each other are not and rebuilding the relationship, it might have worked (not taking into consideration the lack of chemistry). But that's not what they did. They never supported the story they tried to sell, and it left me at least wondering why the hell these two people were ever together in the first place.

[kismet]

I agree with everything except that Oliver got Sara killed.  He just invited her on a boat trip.  There was no possible way for him to know how that would end.  And I say that as Oliver's current biggest non-fan.  

 

I have always thought a more typical reaction would be for Laurel to be happy Oliver was alive but want nothing to do with him.  I'd think she'd have much more motivation to forgive/want to be around Sara than Oliver.

Yes.  She says something like that to Sara in the "you stole my life" speech.  (Or at least she knows Sara brought some "crazy assassins" around who did that.  I guess it's possible she doesn't know, even now, that it was Nyssa.)

Agree. It's not OQ fault what happened with the Gambit. He's wrong for cheating on LL multiple times. He's wrong for bringing her sister on an around the world sexcapade. But its not his fault the boat was sabotaged and as a result both he & SL had to endure 5 years of torture & hell. So LL can be mad at them for the cheating, but the whole dying thing was not in their control. And I agree that I would have imagined LL would be happy they are alive, but want nothing to do with them. Although, I would think that one would be more motivated and invested in forgiving their sister than their cheating cad of an ex-boyfriend.

 

Maybe Nyssa forgot to share that little snippet of truth over milkshakes and burgers. If you were Nyssa, would you share that snippet about trying to kill the person being nice to you and her mother? Nah, I would keep that secret. It's lying by omission, but its also the human thing to do.

 

I always figured it was done as a way to acknowledge the cheating from the comics and put it in the past. But it was done so very very badly. Apart from the issue of the actors' lack of chemistry, I don't think they ever once gave us one positive flashback for them. We were never once shown any reason at all why this couple was supposedly so in love with each other. We were just supposed to believe that they were fated soulmates, but they never gave us a reason to believe in that relationship. Why was a girl like Laurel interested in someone like Oliver? Why did Oliver keep going back to Laurel?

And now that I'm thinking of it, I think that's one of the (many) problems. Oliver cheating on Laurel once might have been forgiven, but it's really hard to do that when the implication is that he was doing it constantly. The first season tried really hard to sell this epic love, but it was really hard to get around the huge "WHY" when looking at their past.

If they had taken the approach that they were both messed up back then and are different people now, and had them both start over from ground up learning who each other are not and rebuilding the relationship, it might have worked (not taking into consideration the lack of chemistry). But that's not what they did. They never supported the story they tried to sell, and it left me at least wondering why the hell these two people were ever together in the first place.

Well said. Why they chose to certain directions & character/story choices I will never understand. They love to make the hardest path for themselves.

[hogwash]

The weird (funny?) thing is that the horrible Laurel/Oliver back story would only have gotten worse if you believe that they knew Sara was coming back. "I cheated on you with your sister. Then I lied about her being dead." Yikes.

I think, from a Lance family perspective, it makes sense to kinda blame Oliver for Sara's death. It's not a very rational feeling (not that they're a very rational family anyway), but it makes sense. Especially in the first season when he comes back while she's still (presumably) dead.

I'm also pretty sure the Lance family knows what Nyssa did. But by the end of S02, they're all smiling while Sara goes off to rejoin the LOA with her. Whatever. I'm biased so I'm cool with it.

[Happy Harpy]

When Laurel thought she had hallucinated seeing Sara, she was happy to think she was alive and in Season 1 she was on Dinahs side in trying to find out if she had survived the boat.

Are you talking about season 1 episode 17? Because I remember it very differently. Quentin was helping Dinah, Laurel was dead set against it. I remember being shocked that Laurel didn't seem to hope/believe, even for a minute, that her sister could be alive. I don't remember that she said anything indicating she did. It seemed to me that she was trying to disprove her mother's theory/delusion, which she eventually did.

Until then, she got a bit on my nerves, but it was the Oliver/Laurel relationship I couldn't stand. This is the moment, I think, when I began to truly and actively dislike Laurel. And it's also why I never believed in the loving "sisterly" relationship between Laurel and Sara, which I think got it even worse than Oliver/Laurel when it came to writing.

 

I don't think the writers were ever able to envision the Lance sisters as anything but rivals so far, even unconsciously. And unfortunately it affects the relationship in universe and makes it systematically hit the wrong notes for me. I sometimes have the feeling that they think the audience would be unable to like both of them.  It seems that it always has to be one or the other: for example in season 2, when Laurel was suddenly the "bad" sister whereas Sara got a POV that could make her more sympathetic when it came to her sleeping with Oliver, or in season 3, when they could have found dozens of reasons for Laurel to become Black Canary, but they chose to kill Sara to "free" the place for her. Even when they tried to make them friendly, they chose the wrong option imo, like Laurel advising Sara on her relationship with Oliver -I could see her do this with McKenna or even Helena, but not with anyone Oliver had cheated on her with.

The only moment when I believed the writers might have finally found a good way to handle the relationship was when Laurel said "She's the Canary" with admiration, by the end of S2...but of course, they had to ruin it with with the jacket and more competition.

TPTB were imo in such a hurry to sweep anything Sara under the rug in S3 that she was presented in Canaries, from what I gather, more like a rival who Laurel had to compete with to fulfill her destineeee...which is kind of weird when it's someone they supposedly want Laurel to honor. To honor, for me, implies humility, and therefore it shouldn't come with such insecurities. So I don't believe it, and the whole in-universe justification of Laurel as BC (plus her motivations) collapses for me.

I hope that Sara going to LoT changed the writers' vision and will give birth to a storyline aiming to make sense, not to make one sister shine at the sake of the other like imo, it was the case so far. I'm looking forward to Sara's resurrection but I'm afraid that the sisters part of it might not work for me otherwise.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[AyChihuahua]

Laurel told Quentin that she got him involved in Dinah's quest because she hoped he'd he'd persuade Dinah to "accept things," i.e., that Sara was dead.  And then Laurel disproved Dinah's theory about the girl in the hat by ambushing her with said NotSara in the hat. Laurel was NOT on Dinah's side in trying to prove Sara was alive.

 

1.18 Salvation

 

L: What's all this?

Q: Well, you asked me to look into your mother's leads on Sara, so I made some calls.

L: It looks like you did a lot more than that.

Q: Well yeah, but you're the one that said we should do this Laurel.  You know if there's even a chance that your sister 

L: Yeah, but...

D: (in background on phone, then hangs up)  Hi sweetheart, I'm sorry about the mess.  Quentin, I just got off the phone with the consulate in Phuket.  The secretary there is going to run her photo against the database, see if there's a match.

Q: (to Dinah) That's good work.

L:  Well I guess I just thought deep down that you were gonna help mom...accept things.  Things you and I accepted?

Q: Yeah, but...you gotta admit, this girl she looks a lot like Sara...

 

Then Laurel goes off to use her law school contacts to find NotSara and ambush Quentin and Dinah with her.

 

Oh, and when Laurel hallucinated Sara she was happy about it, but when she actually saw her alive she yelled at her and threw a wine glass at her.  She's really not a particularly likable person.

Edited October 5, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[lemotomato]

I always figured it was done as a way to acknowledge the cheating from the comics and put it in the past. But it was done so very very badly. Apart from the issue of the actors' lack of chemistry, I don't think they ever once gave us one positive flashback for them. We were never once shown any reason at all why this couple was supposedly so in love with each other. We were just supposed to believe that they were fated soulmates, but they never gave us a reason to believe in that relationship. Why was a girl like Laurel interested in someone like Oliver? Why did Oliver keep going back to Laurel?

And now that I'm thinking of it, I think that's one of the (many) problems. Oliver cheating on Laurel once might have been forgiven, but it's really hard to do that when the implication is that he was doing it constantly. The first season tried really hard to sell this epic love, but it was really hard to get around the huge "WHY" when looking at their past.

If they had taken the approach that they were both messed up back then and are different people now, and had them both start over from ground up learning who each other are not and rebuilding the relationship, it might have worked (not taking into consideration the lack of chemistry). But that's not what they did. They never supported the story they tried to sell, and it left me at least wondering why the hell these two people were ever together in the first place.

In retrospect, I thought it was interesting that the show didn't introduce the "Ollie was a serial cheater" detail until season 2. As far as I can remember, in season 1 the only person we knew he cheated on Laurel with was Sara. But in season 2 they really hammered in how toxic past O/L was when flashback Sara mentioned that he'd been with 10 other girls that they knew of, and then again later, when we meet the girl he impregnated while he was with Laurel. 

 

It was like the showrunners thought O/L could maybe still be a possibility after season 1, bad past and all, but at some point in season 2 they just went, "Fuck it" and made "Ollie" the scummiest boyfriend that ever was to stall that ship indefinitely. It was no-go for me as soon as they went with the "cheated on Laurel with her sister" route, but some people might have looked past it. How they can accept serial cheating and knocking up someone while cheating, I have no idea.

Edited October 5, 2015 by lemotomato

[Nanrad]

When Laurel thought she had hallucinated seeing Sara, she was happy to think she was alive and in Season 1 she was on Dinahs side in trying to find out if she had survived the boat. A lot of Laurels hate seemed to come from the booze and drugs. Of course some of it was also Sara being alive all this time and not contacting her family but of course that was before Laurel found out what hell Sara had gone through. I think people see the potential for the two of them to be great together which is what makes them want to be reunited. It's like Sara/Nyssa, those two had plenty of problems when we were introduced to their relationship but people can see the love there and want them back together.

IMHO, LL hate came from the first episode and continued to built. She was immediately rejected by many when the series first started and even more when that story line began. 

 

Honestly, I don't see the potential in them, I just like Sara better. 

[Primal Slayer]

Laurel told Quentin that she got him involved in Dinah's quest because she hoped he'd he'd persuade Dinah to "accept things," i.e., that Sara was dead.  And then Laurel disproved Dinah's theory about the girl in the hat by ambushing her with said NotSara in the hat. Laurel was NOT on Dinah's side in trying to prove Sara was alive.

 

1.18 Salvation

Then Laurel goes off to use her law school contacts to find NotSara and ambush Quentin and Dinah with her.

 

Oh, and when Laurel hallucinated Sara she was happy about it, but when she actually saw her alive she yelled at her and threw a wine glass at her.  She's really not a particularly likable person.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

While she totally acted wrong dealing with her emotions when it came to Sara, she was a drunk and a pill popper by then so I don't look at that being who she really is. She had a lot of pent up anger that she never bothered dealing with and the booze/pills intensified all of that, but when she got sober she went to her sister and worked things out with her. If anything Laurel should've got some counseling after Oliver/Sara "died" the entire family should've, worked helped them A LOT.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[lemotomato]

Everyone on the show could benefit from therapy. But the plots are so dependent on them making bad decisions we wouldn't have a show if they weren't all messed up somehow

[apinknightmare]

Bad Idea Jeans, Wednesday at 8 Eastern on The CW!

[TwistedandBored]

Everyone on the show could benefit from therapy. But the plots are so dependent on them making bad decisions we wouldn't have a show if they weren't all messed up somehow

 

There is a difference between being a messy individual and being a stupid one though. Every time the show wants to introduce a Big Bad or they want to make a huge move, they dumb down their characters even more than usual. It just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. 

[AyChihuahua]

There is a difference between being a messy individual and being a stupid one though. Every time the show wants to introduce a Big Bad or they want to make a huge move, they dumb down their characters even more than usual. It just leaves a bad taste in your mouth. 

100% agree.  Oliver's season-long stupidity in S3 is by far my #1 complaint about the season...the plot was so dumb that he had to be stupid or he would have fixed everything in 3.4.

[lemotomato]

There is a difference between being a messy individual and being a stupid one though. Every time the show wants to introduce a Big Bad or they want to make a huge move, they dumb down their characters even more than usual. It just leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

I think the show was especially bad at this in season 3. Like how Felicity, cyber security expert, never bothered to cover up the camera on her computer so Merlyn could conveniently spy on Team Arrow? Yeeah.

[kismet]

In retrospect, I thought it was interesting that the show didn't introduce the "Ollie was a serial cheater" detail until season 2. As far as I can remember, in season 1 the only person we knew he cheated on Laurel with was Sara. But in season 2 they really hammered in how toxic past O/L was when flashback Sara mentioned that he'd been with 10 other girls that they knew of, and then again later, when we meet the girl he impregnated while he was with Laurel.

It was like the showrunners thought O/L could maybe still be a possibility after season 1, bad past and all, but at some point in season 2 they just went, "Fuck it" and made "Ollie" the scummiest boyfriend that ever was to stall that ship indefinitely. It was no-go for me as soon as they went with the "cheated on Laurel with her sister" route, but some people might have looked past it. How they can accept serial cheating and knocking up someone while cheating, I have no idea.

I think we knew he was a player in s1. But they really upped the cheating ante in s2. I think I vould have overlooked the cheating in the past, IF we knew OQ was changed man. A lot happened in those 5y & people change. So there could have been the potential for O/L yo reconnect as the new & mature people they are.

But then SL came back from the dead & OQ chise her over LL repeatedly both romantically & professionally as partners in crime. So yeah after s2 - O/L is not possible. My opinion of LL & respect for her would plummet if she chose to be with OQ again. Even as a drunken or drug induced mistake, I still would lose respect for LL. Probably OQ too.

 

edited - double post, sorry

Edited October 5, 2015 by kismet

[tennisgurl]

 

There is a difference between being a messy individual and being a stupid one though. Every time the show wants to introduce a Big Bad or they want to make a huge move, they dumb down their characters even more than usual. It just leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

WORD. Last season, the only reason the League of Whatever was able to do anything at all was because our hero`s all lost their brains somewhere. Not that the League of Whatever was much better (they're whole purpose as a group seems to be throwing smoke bombs around and standing around dramatically), but it was amazing how much they had to twist the characters, especially poor Oliver, to get everyone in the places they needed them. 

[AyChihuahua]

They basically spent S3 destroying every important interpersonal relationship among the regular cast and making all the characters dumb and varying degrees of assy.  I don't think they can un-ring that bell for me, so unless S4 is Veronica Mars S1 levels of awesome, I'm going to guess I'll drift away over the course of the season.  

[morakot]

Pre-island Ollie is a lot like my father was at the same age. He liked the attention from women who offered it, and he didn't like to do or say anything that might take any of that away -- most of the time, he would just say yes to whatever the woman was asking, even if he knew he wasn't ever going to do it. Of course, this means that Ollie, like my dad, ends up with multiple women, and he ends up charmingly la-la-la-ing through his life with them, never committing firmly to anything. He is lucky that he ended up on Lian Yu and not in and out of an early, unhappy marriage with Laurel and hounded by mistresses. (My father finally settled with wife number 5.) Post-island Oliver is clearer about stating what he will and won't do, has seen healthy relationships up close, and knows what he wants (even if he doesn't think he can have it.

 

Laurel (who knows him in her bones) is lucky to have escaped being Mrs pre-island Ollie.

[hogwash]

I don't know what it is about this show. If any other show had a season like S03, I'd be out. I completely blame OTA in S01/S02 for this. Why were they so engaging and amazing together? They've brainwashed me.

 

Laurel (who knows him in her bones) is lucky to have escaped being Mrs pre-island Ollie.

 

She definitely dodged a bullet. 

[wonderwall]

I'm fine with the present but I'm talking about how i think they've changed the past. And how now that past doesn't seem to matter which is why i wouldn't be surprised if they forget to involve Laurels feelings in the kid storyline.

 

But I thought we already agreed that they didn't change the past at all (they just added onto it). They just changed how Oliver reacted to it. It's not important to him anymore. Their romantic relationship isn't important to him anymore. And that's reflected in the storytelling. 

[Primal Slayer]

I see it as them changing the past to accommodate what they want to do with the future/present. Especially when MG basically admited to it for s4.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[wonderwall]

I see it as them changing the past to accommodate what they want to do with the future.

 

I still don't see them changing anything? Them changing the past would require Oliver to tell Laurel he never loved her, telling the audience that what they shared in the past was beautiful, etc. 

 

What the writers did (which wasn't change the past) was actually shed more light on just how screwed up they were. We didn't know their entire history in S1, they simply added onto it. That's not changing anything IMO. They showed just how toxic their relationship was, and that had zero to do with their intentions w/ Oliver/Sara and Oliver/Felicity. It was simply just the nature of their relationship. 

 

But I suppose we should agree to disagree and move on. 

[apinknightmare]

I don't think it's changing to accommodate what they want to do now, I think it's adding more details to the stories we already had to right the course of something they didn't think was working. The only thing I find truly strange about it when I think about it is the fact that Laurel's picture is nowhere to be found in the flashbacks. It's not something that bothers me though, because given their relationship history from the get-go, I never believed that O/L were any kind of love story at all, much less a great one. All the "I know you in my bones," and "you've always seen the person I could be," or whatever they were trying to sell always rang so false to me, because we met Oliver and Laurel when they were on the outs, and all we ever see in the flashbacks about the two of them is her being naive/delusional about the relationship and him being an utter shitbag to her. So, I'm glad they don't harp on any of that stuff they tried in S1, because it all seemed like crap to me. We never saw a time when the two of them were in love and actually in a good relationship, without knowing what Oliver was getting up to behind her back. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

I think the closest the writers came to changing the O/L relationship rather than just expanding on it in a negative way was the picture thing with associated pining over five years.  The first season, I think from the pilot on, had Oliver staring at Laurel's picture, including when he returned.  Now we know he was still banging any unmarried woman with a pulse over those five years, and the picture seems to have been lost, without Oliver even missing it, somewhere on Lian Yu.

 

 

I'm also pretty sure the Lance family knows what Nyssa did.

Just rewatched S2 finale, and Laurel tells Quentin that Sara is "with that woman, that woman that took Mom."  So she does know that Nyssa kidnapped Dinah, meaning unless she's an S3 Oliver-level moron, she should also have figured out that Nyssa was behind her poisoning.

[Primal Slayer]

To me, them adding the whole "laurel knew i liked you but pursued you anyway" is changing things as i think they had different thoughts on what happened before they decided to make Laurel look like the enemy. Her picture meaning nothing now in flashbacks, is changing to accommodate. By the time Oliver comes back to Starling, his entire feelings (it seems as of this moment) will entirely different from what we were introduced to.

[AyChihuahua]

Filling in blanks isn't actually changing the story.  There was nothing in-show that contradicted Sara liking him first.

[lemotomato]

I see it as them changing the past to accommodate what they want to do with the future/present. Especially when MG basically admited to it for s4.

When did MG say this?

[Primal Slayer]

There isn't but i just never bought what they told us with Laurel being the big bad sister that came between Sara/Olivers potential relationship.

When did MG say this?

A couple months ago when they announced part of the flashbacks. I'll find the link when i get home.

[AyChihuahua]

 

There isn't but i just never bought what they told us with Laurel being the big bad sister that came between Sara/Olivers potential relationship.

You not buying Laurel doing that has nothing to do with whether or not it was an actual change to the O/L backstory.  

 

It's also entirely possible Sara was an unreliable narrator there.  Her saying it doesn't make it fact.  But if it was fact, it still would not be a change.  Even if the producers had different plans, that doesn't make it a change...they change their plans all the time.  If the rule is that them having a plan that never makes it to film = a change, then I guess they changed Isabel's backstory, since they weren't sure whether she'd be good, bad, or indifferent, or Robert's mistress, or Slade's daughter, or an alien from Mars.  

Edited October 6, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[BkWurm1]

I see it as them changing the past to accommodate what they want to do with the future/present. Especially when MG basically admited to it for s4.

I think it comes down to impressions.  In the early part of season one, I thought that Oliver had kept a beloved picture on him but we found out before the finale that instead the picture came from when Laurel showed up purposely to hand it to him, which he took with a smile as he was trying to get rid of Laurel so Sara could get on the boat.    At that point, the picture like their past was tainted in my eyes.  It's not a retcon but it is a new understanding of the past.  Perhaps they'd already decided at that point to down play the importance of the picture but even earlier, we'd found out that Sara went with Oliver not because she took twisted delight in sticking it to her sister, but because she thought she was in love with Oliver. 

 

Every time we learned more about Oliver and Laurel's relationship, it just got worse and worse.  Scary to think that merely cheating on her with her sister was the highpoint in my opinion of their past relationship. 

 

Is it rewriting show history if the impressions we grab on to turn out to be wrong?  Like how many thought Tommy was going to be evil.  Or Walter for that matter and instead it was Moira behind everything (and that was only in the Pilot!) 

 

Or Oliver's tech abilities.  He had that one high tech arrow and a passing computer ability but many insist that his expert computer abilities were retconned away.  What becomes the difference in changing history versus better understanding the facts? 

[Primal Slayer]

You not buying Laurel doing that has nothing to do with whether or not it was an actual change to the O/L backstory.

It's also entirely possible Sara was an unreliable narrator there. Her saying it doesn't make it fact. But if it was fact, it still would not be a change. Even if the producers had different plans, that doesn't make it a change...they change their plans all the time. If the rule is that them having a plan that never makes it to film = a change, then I guess they changed Isabel's backstory, since they weren't sure whether she'd be good, bad, or indifferent, or Robert's mistress, or Slade's daughter, or an alien from Mars.

Well that would be the point of how I saw the situation.

[statsgirl]

 It's not a retcon but it is a new understanding of the past.

At that point the audience sees that the picture is not the picture of a woman he loves so much that he can't bear to be without her but a symbol of the past life he desperately wants to get back to.

 

While she totally acted wrong dealing with her emotions when it came to Sara, she was a drunk and a pill popper by then so I don't look at that being who she really is. She had a lot of pent up anger that she never bothered dealing with and the booze/pills intensified all of that, but when she got sober she went to her sister and worked things out with her.

It's a quick cure as unrealistic as how quickly she became a fighter though.

 

The scene in Salvation is consistent with how Laurel acted when Sara came back in s2 -- she was okay with feeling sad when she thought Sara was dead but as soon as her parents' attention was off of her, either by Dinah looking to find Sara or by Sara's actual return, she was anger and spiteful.  As if Laurel wanted to be an only child and resented having a little sister.

 

I can see why they did the 180 when she apologized to Sara and how their relationship was written in 2x23 and 3x01; it's easier on them having Laurel as a good guy and competent fighter than it is having her resentful and dealing with her anger issues.  But there's a lot to deal with, just as it takes time to learn how to fight, and that didn't feel authentic.

Edited October 6, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

In vino veritas and all that.  I'd say her reaction to Sara's return was made more honest, not less, by her boozing and drugging.  It just removed her inhibitions.

[lemotomato]

Lemme quote myself 

 

Which is what I see them doing here.

This new love interest

is only being introduce to accommodate what they are doing in the present. Giving him multiple love interests (not just women he has sex with) in the past just makes everything they tried to sell in Season 1 even dumber.

But that's always been the case with the flashbacks-- the events that happened and lessons he learned on the island/Hong Kong always parallel what's going on with him in the present. But I don't think anything we've learned in season 2-3 flashbacks contradicts what actually happened in season 1, just our perception of it.

 

And I think Oliver loved Shado. If she was just "a woman he had sex" he wouldn't have hallucinations of her 5 years after her death. I do agree with you that giving him past love interests undermines what the show was trying to sell in season 1, but then again, I never bought into O/L from the minute they showed Oliver and Sara rolling around in bed.

Edited October 7, 2015 by lemotomato

[kismet]

There isn't but i just never bought what they told us with Laurel being the big bad sister that came between Sara/Olivers potential relationship.

A couple months ago when they announced part of the flashbacks. I'll find the link when i get home.

I think what we have seen in the past 3 years is further elaboration or revelation on how toxic their relationship was. It hasn't changed the basic structure or dynamic of their relationship. Ollie was still the cheating boyfriend who loved LL despite the fact he showed very little respect for the relationship by sleeping around and running away from any of the commitments. LL is still the girl that loved Ollie despite his cheating & caddish ways. If the show had kept with them as the flagship pairing, I think we would have gotten a lot of plots about how people can change in 5 years. Everyone's truth is different. OQ, LL & SL all have a different truth about their relationships. What doesn't change is the facts of the show that OQ chose to be with both sisters and have relationships with them regardless of who saw who first. I don't think there has been any ret-conning, just a different perspective on the facts.

 

He loved LL. He loved SL. He loved Shado (although I feel it was more platonic than romantic, I feel like the sex was just sex). He was never in love with them. He never loved them enough to not be cheating on them, running around on them, keeping them as dirty secrets, keeping secrets from them. I can find no shred of evidence that to me indicates that he was ever in love with anybody except FS. For her, he remained celibate for nearly a year. He proclaimed his love for her to her & everybody else. Was so obvious that even GossipGhul knew his devotion to her. He prioritized her happiness over his. He also knew the limitations of his ability to be in a relationship and rather than string her along - he let her go. He did none of that with any of his other LIs.

[kismet]

duplicate post

Edited October 7, 2015 by kismet