Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wingster55]

I do agree that we should have seen flashbacks of the good times they had. The writers just weren't interested.

[apinknightmare]

I wonder if they even had any good times? The few nice moments we've seen between them in the past have been hampered by Oliver's shittiness. Seems to me like Laurel was always starry-eyed and intentionally oblivious to him screwing around on her, and that looking back on it Oliver regretted being such a tool to her when they were together. 

[tv echo]

I agree with what Laura Hurley wrote about what if Felicity's S3 love interest had been a normal guy..

 

I we're done with Raylicity THANK GOD but I just wanted to ask this because I feel like the idea of Felicity having a love interest outside of Oliver was an interesting idea but the execution fell flat because it was Ray Palmer The Atom. Do you think this triangle would've been better had he just been a normal, nice guy who is a lot like Felicity in intelligence and wit but not trying to be propped up for a spin off? Oh and also not take her away from Digg and Oliver, the two she works best?
Jun 29, 2015 4:01 pm
http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/122786911276/i-were-done-with-raylicity-thank-god-but-i-just

[wingster55]

I wonder if they even had any good times? The few nice moments we've seen between them in the past have been hampered by Oliver's shittiness. Seems to me like Laurel was always starry-eyed and intentionally oblivious to him screwing around on her, and that looking back on it Oliver regretted being such a tool to her when they were together. 

There had to have been SOMETHING there if Laurel was willing to put up with some of his antics. Also why Oliver was constantly staring at that picture.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I think we would have seen flashbacks of happier times — if the romance had worked early on. But when they started to explore other romantic relationships for Oliver, there was no need to show Laurel and Oliver during happier times. Their flashbacks were instead used to point out how much of a jerk Oliver was way back when.

[Sakura12]

I don't know how many good times L/O could've had if Oliver slept with 10 different women while he was supposedly loving her half his life. He got one pregnant and another was her sister. If that's the kind of love Oliver was offering her, she's better off without him. 

 

In Season 2 I still saw SA playing it as Oliver cared more about Sara than Laurel. Both sisters were spiraling in different ways but who did he always go to give comfort and seek comfort from? Sara. Whose feelings did he ignore and tell her to go get more drunk? Laurel. Even if Sara and Oliver just stayed friends, he let Sara into his life, just like he let Felicity and Diggle. He introduced Sara to his team. Laurel was told about his life from the bad guy and forced her introduction into the team. 

 

None of that showed me that Oliver ever was in love with Laurel. He seemed to care about her as you would an acquaintance. He cares but not enough to do anything to actually help. Even his guilt over what happened disappeared the minute he and Sara hooked back up. That's not a love story, they shouldn't even be friends. 

[apinknightmare]

There had to have been SOMETHING there if Laurel was willing to put up with some of his antics. Also why Oliver was constantly staring at that picture.

 

I think Laurel was probably caught up in being with Oliver Queen. And I think Oliver realized that she treated him well and he could've had a good thing if he wasn't so terrible to her. I honestly think that Oliver romanticized what could've been over what actually was. 

Edited June 30, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

Okay. I can fanwank Laurel getting caught up in being with Oliver Queen in the past. I can certainly see Oliver romanticizing him and Laurel on the island. That photo was the only thing he had from home, so he probably spent a lot of time dwelling on that picture.

 

 Oliver coming back and wanting to atone for past mistakes, including trying again with Laurel makes perfect sense. The part that throws me, is what does Laurel have to hold on to? What did she have to look back on that kept her in love with Oliver all those years? Sara's death must have taken off the rose-colored glasses. 

[apinknightmare]

IDK, some people have that person who isn't good for them who gets under their skin for whatever reason and they have a difficult time letting go. Maybe Oliver's that person for Laurel? She could've held onto a fantasy that she had of a world where Oliver was a better boyfriend - I think that's something she could've done without having any real reason to. Like, she loved him for whatever reason and he was a terrible boyfriend (and person), and what would things have been like if he could've been the guy she wanted him to be? Oliver said she always saw the good in him, but maybe she was seeing what she wished he'd be rather than what she thought he could be. And then he comes back after five years, and she thinks, "Maybe he's changed, maybe he could be different this time," but it still doesn't work because they're awful assholes around each other. 

[Sunshine]

In S1 (I don't remember the episode) either Tommy or Joanna says something to Laurel along the lines of her being attracted to "bad boys". Good girl falls for bad boy. Is she looking to reform him or for some excitement in her life? LOL! I think they were going with the same thing with Ted Grant before the actor was upgraded to a regular on his other show.

As far as the photo in flashbacks goes, I always thought it was a combination of guilt as well as the only real reminder of home. I have 4 sisters so I was appalled at the idea of this being some epic love.

Will O/L ever be done again? No clue. I can't say I have seen anything in show to support it. There is a theory going around that because GA and BC never knew each other before they were their alter-egos in the comics, once the show establishes them as fighting partners they will then link them romantically. I hope not but it could happen. I think part of Roy being written out was so they could put BC in his place as Oliver's main field-fighting partner. Words like MG saying Laurel will be "taking her rightful place on Team Arrow" always make me apprehensive.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Sunshine

[tv echo]

There is such a vast difference between the perspectives of (1) those who hate O/F and don't find their romance believable, and (2) those who love O/F and find their relationship an organic development - it's weirdly fascinating in a way.  For example...

 

Arrow Season 3: How Did They Fail? Where Are We Going Next ?
"You have failed this show: Olicity"
by Adan Marin ⋅ Posted on June 29th, 2015 at 3:20pm ⋅ Last edit on June 30th, 2015
http://moviepilot.com/posts/2015/06/29/arrow-season-3-how-did-they-failed-general-thoughts-where-are-we-going-next-3344850?lt_source=external,manual

 

HOW THE ARROW WRITERS HAVE DONE RIGHT BY OLICITY
Christy Spratlin | April 14, 2015 |
http://www.thetvjunkies.com/how-the-arrow-writers-have-done-right-by-olicity/

Edited June 30, 2015 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

I don't understand flashback Oliver and Laurel. This guy peed on cop cars, slept around and dropped out of four schools. She went to law school and dreamed of picket white fences.  

 

I can understand this perfectly.  She was the daughter of a blue collar cop, and probably at that time her mother was scrounging for courses to teach rather than a tenured professor (which would mean financial issues for the family), and Laurel had A Plan for her life.  Oliver was kind, handsome, rich, took her to the fashionable places and brought her expensive wine to drink when they ordered pizza.  I don't think she dreamed so much of white picket fences as being the one running the board of the symphony and art gallery.

 

Don't forget, she was pretty young and probably thought she could mold him into what she wanted.

 

I doubt he'd ever work a single day in his life, even. He'd have a fancy position at QC, but he'd never put any effort into it. That's all I get from the pre-island Oliver flashbacks we got. No "something more" whatsoever.

I think that's true in terms of what pre-flashback Oliver was but there was some good solid character down there somewhere.  Hopefully if it hadn't been the island, something would have happened (TommyThea/his woman of the evening ODing?) to kick him into doing something.

 

I find it interesting that Felicity has shown no jealousy/defensiveness re Laurel and Oliver.  I mean there was some awkwardness with S/O/F in Time of Death, but the last time Felicity was at all jealous of Oliver and Laurel was probably "you can have him back in a minute" in early S2... I feel like that's another sign that L/O is not coming back.  

I think that's because they wanted to keep Felicity looking good.  They made it a point to show that she's wistful but not jealous of Sara's relationship with Oliver and with Laurel it was always "gorgeous Laurel" and Felicity-who-didn't-have-a-shot-with-the-guy.  But I agree, it does make it a lot less likely that they're looking at an O/L comeback.  Even without the "I don't know why I ever thought I was in love with you" line.

 

Because I've been watching Poldark... I see Laurel as Elizabeth and Felicity as Demelza.  Laurel is the girl that Oliver loved before he went away and the girl that he still had lingering feelings for when he returned home, only to find that she hooked up with his best friend during his absence.  Felicity is the girl that was an unexpected surprise and the girl that becomes necessary to Oliver's happiness in his new life after he returns home.  She is the one who fits his future.

Oh, so much this.  (Interesting that Demelza was based on Graham's wife.)  Especially the 1970s Elizabeth who is closer to the books.

 

Like Laurel, Elizabeth is willing to put up with a less-than-perfect husband in exchange for wealth and the social status especially later

when she marries George Warleggan.

.  But women had no independent opportunities 250 years ago as they do now though.

[NumberCruncher]

I'll just echo others' sentiments regarding a future O/L reunion not being something I would enjoy. While I never had an overwhelmingly negative reaction to the two of them back in S1 like a lot of others here did (mine was rather mostly indifference than anything else), that has definitely changed over the past 2 seasons. Even the pre-island cheating thing didn't completely kill the pairing because I think the show did a decent job in showing that Oliver was an entirely different person post-island who clearly regretted what happened and was attempting to make amends. What killed it for me was that for whatever reason, the showrunners decided to pursue O/S again in S2 because it pretty much obliterated the notion that Oliver was sorry for his earlier indiscretion. I saw it as huge character regression. The other thing that pushed what was indifference to O/L into outright disgust has been the awful way they have treated each other since mid-S2. I could barely stomach them literally yelling at each other in S2 but the downright nasty interaction that permeated most of S3 sealed the deal. How am I ever supposed to root for two people who show such utter contempt for one another?

Taking my discussion of the Poldark/Arrow comparisons (because there are a lot) to the Small Talk thread...

[kismet]

If we're identifying which relationship torpedoed loliver, outside of all its internal infrastructure issues, imo it was s/o. Olicity didn't kill loliver in my opinion, putting Sara & Oliver back together in the present did. Olicity happened in part because of the initial problems with loliver. But I can't believe a return to L/O because of present-day S/O.

Gotta agree that I might stop watching the show if they put Oliver & Laurel back together. I would see it as character regression for both characters. And honestly, it would signify that the writers and I no longer have a similar vision for the show- so it's time for one of us to walk away.

[EmeraldArcher]

I agree with all of you who 1) can't fathom re-pairing O/L and 2) wouldn't want to continue watching if it happened. We've already discussed their messy pre-island relationship, especially with all of Oliver's cheating and Laurel's snapping at Sara for pointing it out, but I wonder how she reacted to the paparazzi footage of Oliver hanging onto those drunk party girls (S1 FB, I think?). Maybe Sara's comment was plausibly deniable, given that Laurel knew about her crush, but Laurel's rose-colored glasses must have been superglued to her eyeballs to overlook so much.

Even though there isn't in-show evidence, I've always thought of Laurel as being very attracted to Oliver's money and family prestige. I'm sure the writers set up the O/L/T triangle for drama, but by doing so, they made Tommy-the-billionaire Laurel's only "relationship" during those 5 years. She thought Oliver was dead and hated him anyway, so why didn't she get involved with other men beside the only other young, eligible billionaire within reach? We know nothing about any other men or dates--fun, disastrous, lovely or otherwise--during those years, and there was only a throw-away conversation between her and Thea about Laurel having dated millions of bad boys. I wonder if they were all billionaires? Even with most of Felicity's life unknown to us, we know that she'd had worse first dates than the one with Oliver that literally got blown up.

Many of you pointed out that KC accused Tommy of taking advantage of Laurel (here's the link: http://collider.com/comic-con-stephen-amell-and-katie-cassidy-talk-arrow-playing-a-superhero-and-the-possibility-of-black-canary/),but in all fairness, she said that when only the pilot had been shot. In later interviews, even during S1, she mentioned how much Laurel loved Tommy. What struck me in that Collider.com interview was how poorly she understood Laurel:

"CASSIDY: Just someone real, and grounded and centered. For me, Laurel is almost angelic, if that makes sense. She is just so pure and honest, and I’ve played so many bad girls in the past it’s nice to get to be able to play a character like this."

To me, KC is describing the Felicity we've come to know and love. I'm not saying that the writers deliberately transferred KC's take on LL's qualities to FS, but I feel that KC was speaking more to what she'd been told about the woman who is OQ's one true love--but for the writers' vision to be true, a character (FS) who actually embodied those qualities had to be introduced. KC certainly did not play LL anything remotely close to "angelic" in S1 or ever.

[GreatAtBoats]

What exactly makes Felicity "angelic" where Laurel was not? I can recall only one of them, for example, making light of the trauma they knew a friend had been through, and it wasn't Laurel.

"Real"? Okay. "Grounded"? I don't know about that. But "angelic"? Felicity Smoak? Certainly not.

[apinknightmare]

What exactly makes Felicity "angelic" where Laurel was not? I can recall only one of them, for example, making light of the trauma they knew a friend had been through, and it wasn't Laurel.

I wouldn't call Felicity "angelic," either, not by a long shot. But what are you even talking about?

[Carrie Ann]

Maybe the time Felicity told Oliver she wished he'd really died when the boat went down? Oh, wait.

[lemotomato]

What exactly makes Felicity "angelic" where Laurel was not? I can recall only one of them, for example, making light of the trauma they knew a friend had been through, and it wasn't Laurel.

"Real"? Okay. "Grounded"? I don't know about that. But "angelic"? Felicity Smoak? Certainly not.

I'd venture to say Felicity is more honest too. Except when she's lying to protect someone else's big fat lie.

 

I'd also like to know when you thought Felicity made light of someone's trauma. When she screamed accusations and threw a glass at her sister that came back from the dead?

Edited July 1, 2015 by lemotomato

[statsgirl]

I don't think Felicity is angelic. It sounds like a boring character to me.

 

On the other hand, I wouldn't describe Laurel as "so pure and honest" and she's nowhere near angelic.  This is a person who made her younger sister feel like she wasn't good enough, who was unspeakably cruel to her mother because Dinah wasn't behaving the way she wanted her to (Salvation), who repeatedly put down Tommy and made him grovel before she finally accepted that Tommy was sincere about his feelings for her (and then humiliated him during a dinner with Oliver and Helena), and treated Felicity and Diggle like the hired help until mid season 3.  She also pulled rank on the cop who pulled her over for DUI blackmailed her way back into her ADA job.

 

Whatever Felicity has done, the only time she lashed out at someone else was when she herself was reacting to Sara's death.  I can't say that about Laurel.

 

Even though there isn't in-show evidence, I've always thought of Laurel as being very attracted to Oliver's money and family prestige. I'm sure the writers set up the O/L/T triangle for drama, but by doing so, they made Tommy-the-billionaire Laurel's only "relationship" during those 5 years. She thought Oliver was dead and hated him anyway, so why didn't she get involved with other men beside the only other young, eligible billionaire within reach? We know nothing about any other men or dates--fun, disastrous, lovely or otherwise--during those years, and there was only a throw-away conversation between her and Thea about Laurel having dated millions of bad boys. I wonder if they were all billionaires? Even with most of Felicity's life unknown to us, we know that she'd had worse first dates than the one with Oliver that literally got blown up.

Joanna said that Laurel hadn't had a relationship since Oliver died but that doesn't mean that she didn't casually date.  But that line was in the pilot and I think we were supposed to think that Laurel was too driven first academically and then to help the people of the Glades to have time for a relationship.  (Laurel's selflessness at CNRI was really all tell and little show.)

 

Five years isn't that long a time (researchers say it takes 5-6 years to recover from a break-up) and if she was really that angry and upset about Oliver and Sara, it's understandable that she wouldn't seek out a new relationship.

Edited July 1, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

I'd also like to know when you thought she made light of someone's trauma.

Yeah, she can be pretty mean when she's angry, but I honestly can't remember her ever making fun of anyone's emotional trauma.

[EmeraldArcher]

What exactly makes Felicity "angelic" where Laurel was not? I can recall only one of them, for example, making light of the trauma they knew a friend had been through, and it wasn't Laurel.

"Real"? Okay. "Grounded"? I don't know about that. But "angelic"? Felicity Smoak? Certainly not.

You focused too closely on the last sentence of my post, which simply pointed out that Laurel was absolutely not angelic.

But, I'm up for a challenge! I'll try to keep this grounded in relationships so that it remains relevant to this thread.

Felicity's "angelic" qualities/actions:

Honesty: Felicity has been honest, even when it might jeopardize her relationships. Examples include standing up to Oliver, telling Oliver about Thea's paternity, and never being afraid to tell the truth. I'm not counting her protecting heroes' identities for obvious reasons. Also not counting not being honest with Ray about her feelings because she was obviously trying to hide her feelings from herself to protect her heart and move on. I think Felicity's babbling happens because she literally can't suppress her honest reactions/thoughts.

Sweetness: Although she can be feisty, Felicity is rarely intentionally hurtful. Whereas most of the other characters lash out with the most hurtful things they can muster in the heat of the moment, Felicity doesn't. We've seen this dynamic between OQ/TQ, OQ/LL, OQ/SL, LL/SL, LL/QL, but very, very rarely in Felicity's relationships. Her outburst to her mother was about her feeling that her mom would always be disappointed that Felicity wasn't living up to her expectations--she didn't hurl insults at her mom. Her comment to Oliver that he would like it if Ray got himself killed was odd and ambiguous, but not overtly cruel.

Moral Compass: Critics, fans, and co-workers all describe her as the moral compass. No need to elaborate, I hope.

Light Imagery: The light imagery has been an anvil for a long time in her key scenes with Oliver. Also, many religions use light metaphors to evoke hope, goodness, security, peace, purity, etc. Furthermore, Felicity is the fairest (regular) character with her blonde hair and blue eyes, so she could be construed as the manifestation of light. Personally, I find the white-washing of goodness racist, but it's a long established symbolism that has only recently been challenged in literature, movies, TV, and other visual arts.

Salvation/Guardian Angel: Felicity is so clearly the brains of the team and has been the one to save Oliver and innocents countless times due to her computer skills, and not through violence. Furthermore, she literally swooped from the sky to save Oliver as he fell to his death in the S3 finale. Earlier, she jumped from a plane to save Oliver--another time she literally came down from the figurative heavens. Sure it's a stretch, but I believe that symbolism counts.

Grace: I'm not talking about physical grace (even though she can wear very high heels gracefully); I'm referring to her ability to be a part of a heroic team facing constant danger and remain happy and ethically grounded. She has helped Oliver reconcile the mission with maintaining his humanity because she has always been able to.

Loyalty: I think this is obvious, and I also think it's a key reason why she's the one character who continues to add positive new relationships even as others alienate the people in their lives. Felicity puts others first in a way that doesn't come across a being degrading to herself.

I'm not sure my list will convince you. I sense the possibility that you're not a fan of Felicity. I can respect that.

ETA: My original point was never about Felicity being angelic; it was taking exception to KC's use of the word to describe LL. Also, the main characteristics I used are probably arbitrary and might not be traditionally established angelic traits. I'm not a religious person, so I did my best.

Edited July 1, 2015 by EmeraldArcher

[wonderwall]

I actually don't think Felicity is angelic at all... An amazing woman, yes, but not angelic. 

 

Felicity hacks into government databases, she isn't always so firm on the no killing rule (201, 218, 309, 323), threatens people (her bitch w/ wifi moments, threatening Malcolm, threatening Ra's), she gets angry, and be selfish at times... 

 

But Felicity not being Angelic is not a bad thing? I actually think it's a really good thing. It's what makes her a compelling character with a lot of layers. 

[EmeraldArcher]

Joanna said that Laurel hadn't had a relationship since Oliver died but that doesn't mean that she didn't casually date.  But that line was in the pilot and I think we were supposed to think that Laurel was too driven first academically and then to help the people of the Glades to have time for a relationship.  (Laurel's selflessness at CNRI was really all tell and little show.)

 

Five years isn't that long a time (researchers say it takes 5-6 years to recover from a break-up) and if she was really that angry and upset about Oliver and Sara, it's understandable that she wouldn't seek out a new relationship.

That's entirely believable. However, after Tommy died in very traumatic circumstances, Laurel seemed to be taking baby steps toward dating. In S2, she went to dinner with her co-worker when he pressed, but got understandably freaked out at the restaurant and left. There seemed to be something brewing between her and Blood before she became suspicious. In S3, she might have been moving quickly toward Ted Grant and they went on a few let's-go-eat-tacos maybe-dates. He believed in and stood up for her, and she trusted him enough to confide in him about Sara's death and her own grief. Unfortunately, we'll never know if that would have progressed, but it was less than the 2-year mark of Tommy's death.

I realize that Oliver's "death" and circumstances could have impacted her much more than Tommy's death because of her youth and facing her first devastating heartbreak and betrayal. Also, the show can't allow her such another lengthy recovery as it did for the five years off camera.

[EmeraldArcher]

I actually don't think Felicity is angelic at all... An amazing woman, yes, but not angelic. 

But Felicity not being Angelic is not a bad thing? I actually think it's a really good thing. It's what makes her a compelling character with a lot of layers.

I think I inadvertently contributed to this notion that Felicity is angelic. My original post was about Laurel and KC using "angelic." However, in other spaces with lots of Laurel fans, people have drawn very favorable comparisons between LL and Dinah from the comics. They see LL's compassion, championing of the poor and vulnerable, caring deeply for friends and family, and her huge capacity for forgiveness all as hallmarks of their beloved comic hero. I don't read those comics, but I find their arguments not very convincing based on their examples from the show.

I only invoked Felicity because I was thinking about how the qualities the Dinah fans love about her in the comics (and what I thought KC was referencing based on her research/prep for that Con) sounded more like Felicity.

The word "angelic" could have been omitted, and I would have had the same reaction.

I was having a bit of fun trying to squish Felicity into the angel mold in response to that poster's obvious derision. I'm too well informed about the oppressive history of the "Angel in the House" tradition to ever want any woman aspire to or be perceived as "angelic."

[quarks]

On the minor point of Laurel's dating habits, I'm willing to take Joanna's word for it that Laurel barely dated after Oliver didn't actually drown in the Pacific. She'd just had a major trauma, she was in law school or working, she's a workaholic, and the show never even hinted at anything there other than whatever happened between her and Tommy, which apparently didn't last all that long and on Laurel's side, may have been slightly motivated either by revenge or by a very understandable need to rebuild her self-esteem. (That's me fanwanking reasons - the show never made that point clear.)  Laurel didn't seem to be with anyone in "The Return" flashbacks, though Tommy was interested.  Post Tommy, we really haven't seen her date much - the very brief thing with the DA, the brief thing with Blood, and whatever the Ted Grant thing wasn't.  She seemed to be more focused on work and vigilanting this season, and that at least was in character with season one (where Tommy complained that she put work before him) and...ok, maybe not with season two, but at least in character with the not dating much in season two.

[AyChihuahua]

I went to a top 20 law school, and it's simply not so hard that you can't date.  Finals are tough, but that's only 2x/year...the rest of the time you have hours and hours and hours free every day.  It's awesome, actually.  So the trauma I get, but no matter how much of a gunner she was she still would have had SO MUCH free time to date.  I bet she did date, just casually. 

 

I'm on board with her getting a love interest next season.  Someone very likeable and fun, and with whom KC has tons of chemistry.

[Sunshine]

Yeah, she can be pretty mean when she's angry, but I honestly can't remember her ever making fun of anyone's emotional trauma.

This is stretching it - and I totally disagree that she was making fun of anyone in either scene but MMV.    Maybe this is the scene in S2 where Felicity says to Sara we all make decisions we regret and compares getting out of a gym membership to LOA membership.   Another option might be 3.06 Guilty and her reluctance to do a blood test on Roy.  It might be something totally different but those are the only things I can think of that might be construed that way.

[calliope1975]

Maybe it was the "fantasy island" comment. A bit harsh but Oliver's not exactly chatty about what he went through on and off the island.

 

Besides that, I'm glad Felicity gets mean and snarky and doesn't always say the right thing. It makes her human and relatable because it's balanced out with her genuine caring about her friends.

[Chaser]

The "fantasy island" comment I flinched at. It felt totally out of place to me. Was she still mad at Oliver for flipping out over Barry? idk. That is one of the reasons I''m glad she insisted on keeping the hood for Oliver. It didn't make up for the comment, but I like her recognizing the importance Shado had to Oliver.

[AyChihuahua]

I thought that comment was funny.  And in context she'd been expecting to hear that Oliver had been seeing visions of something terrible, but instead it was yet another woman he'd been with while on a supposedly deserted island. 

[Password]

I thought it was a little mean, but also very truthful. She keeps hearing about women. I'd think the same thing.

[TrueMyth]

I thought it was a little mean, but also very truthful. She keeps hearing about women. I'd think the same thing.

Oliver managed to have sex/relationships more on a "deserted" island than he did for a year in Hong Kong.  In that respect at least, it was kind of a Fantasy Island.  I think Felicity does an awesome job not pressing Oliver on what happened to him over the course of five years, particularly when it is established how much she hates mysteries, but I can totally sympathize with her or Diggle getting a bit exasperated when Oliver's withholding has a direct impact on their current reality (which it always, always will, because TV).

[doesntworkonwood]

I still never get why Shado had sex with Oliver on the Island. She was repeatedly shown as a smart and capable woman (until her death scene), so I don't understand why she'd have sex with anyone on the Island. Unless Oliver was able to save his condom stash from the boat. 

 

Why am I thinking about this?

[Chaser]

Product placement for condoms. Get on it Arrow.

[AyChihuahua]

It's really a fantastic question, although personally I focus on "Why'd she have sex with such a d-bag with such terrible hair?"   

 

Although I have to say, I think I'd bang pre-evil Slade Wilson like a screen door.  Birth control or no birth control.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Oliver managed to have sex/relationships more on a "deserted" island than he did for a year in Hong Kong.  In that respect at least, it was kind of a Fantasy Island.  I think Felicity does an awesome job not pressing Oliver on what happened to him over the course of five years, particularly when it is established how much she hates mysteries, but I can totally sympathize with her or Diggle getting a bit exasperated when Oliver's withholding has a direct impact on their current reality (which it always, always will, because TV).

 

One of my wishes for S4 is Oliver mentioning somebody from the past and Felicity explaining who it is to Digg and the team or saying something like "is that the guy who did this and that?" I just want to get the sense that Oliver has shared something more about his past with Felicity during their 5-month honeymoon.

Edited July 1, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[doesntworkonwood]

It's really a fantastic question, although personally I focus on "Why'd she have sex with such a d-bag with such terrible hair?"   

 

Although I have to say, I think I'd bang pre-evil Slade Wilson like a screen door.  Birth control or no birth control.

 

TBH I'm more worried about the STD's. How many women was Oliver sleeping with at the same time?

[AyChihuahua]

TBH I'm more worried about the STD's. How many women was Oliver sleeping with at the same time?

So many reasons not to have sex with Ollie Queen.  Not to mention, in my headcanon Ollie has zero skills, because he's never needed to learn or develop any.  Oliver has skills, because he's so intense and focused and all, but Ollie...nah.

[dtissagirl]

From the news thread:
 

I don't think so. My impression was that, at least until s3, Felicity managed to cater to both male and female fandoms as a love interest. Really, if you were a guy  (especially a geek), whom would you choose - a hot nerdy girl who crushes on you and helps you faithfully even despite you screwing other females or a icy lawyer who dated your best friend, tried to organize a crusade against your vigilante activity and told you yous hould have died on the island?

 

I was thinking less in terms of viewer response, but rather in writing tropes. I'm a straight woman, and I respond to certain tropes in romance writing that are male-oriented. The one that comes to mind right now is the bad boy reforming for the love of a good girl trope. That's some serious male fantasy going on, but it works for me sometimes.

 

Both Laurel and Felicity were conceived as characters from a male-fantasy POV:

 

- Laurel is what dudebro writers think is the strong female character trope, completely ignoring how problematic that term is. "Strong female character" often sees "strong" as being able to punch people in the face, and on a emotional level, someone who doesn't break down easily. I.e. "strong" meaning tropey male characteristics borrowed by a lady character.

 

- Felicity is the pretty sassy nerd trope. "Nerd" also being something often seen as primarily male, but it's all right if a fictional lady is nerdy, as long as she's hot and/or sassy. Bonus points for both. Extra bonus points for starting out in frumpy clothes and panda flats, and then She's All That-ing to boob window dresses and Jimmy Choos.

 

I'm gonna simplify the tropes used, but in their romantic storylines:

 

- Laurel is the magnanimous woman who forgave Oliver for all of the gross cheating, and was willing to give him a second chance. And before that, she either completely ignored or condoned his cheating on her. That's a very very male-centric way of writing romance.

 

- Felicity, otoh, got the insecure/invisible girl who caught the interest of the jock trope. This is a way more female-centric romantic trope. They even went out of their way to make Oliver celibate for Felicity. Which is something DUDE writers think caters to a female-centric story, but they went there anyway. Celibacy being the ultimate surrender to a woman, you know? Men think weird shit. 

 

Disclaimer: Arrow is a male-oriented show written mostly by dudes, so even when they try to do stuff from a female-centric POV, or to blatantly cater to ladies in the audience, it's still men doing the writing, and it's actually hilarious how what men think women want from fictional romance is NOT AT ALL what women actually want from romance writing.

Edited July 1, 2015 by dancingnancy

[FurryFury]

I was thinking less in terms of viewer response, but rather in writing tropes. I'm a straight woman, and I respond to certain tropes in romance writing that are male-oriented. The one that comes to mind right now is the bad boy reforming for the love of a good girl trope. That's some serious male fantasy going on, but it works for me sometimes.

 

I'm actually pretty sure this is a female-oriented trope, simply because it's ever-present in romance fiction irregardless of the time period or culture (just look at the amount of Japanese shoujo manga featuring this stuff). I personally don't hate it (tropes are not bad, almost everything can be done well) and I definitely can sometimes (or even often) like the "bad boy" character type, but I prefer a more equal dynamic most of the time.

 

- Laurel is what dudebro swriters think is the strong female character trope, completely ignoring how problematic that term is.

 

Don't disagree with this. I don't really consider the term problematic though. I relate to most characters designated as "strong females" automatically as long as they are adequately written, TBH. And I do think that an action genre should have action girls, something missing in s1 of both Arrow and The Flash (well Arrow had guest characters but still). I don't think that non-action characters are any lesser, but I can't help but relate to female fighters or those having powers over others.

 

- Felicity is the pretty sassy nerd trope. "Nerd" also being something often seen as primarily male, but it's all right if a fictional lady is nerdy, as long as she's hot and/or sassy. Bonus points for both. Extra bonus points for starting out in frumpy clothes and panda flats, and then She's All That-ing to boob window dresses and Jimmy Choos.

 

I think she hadn't been that sassy in s1/2. From what I hear she only really started to talk back to Oliver in s3, and I think this was the turning point for many of the fans, especially men who've automatically related to Oliver (and probably some women, I dunno). I generally feel like that the leads, especially male leads, have it very easy with the audience perception, and Arrow is no different. Both Felicity and Laurel are treated way worse for their mistakes, perceived or real, than Oliver ever is.

 

Disclaimer: Arrow is a male-oriented show written mostly by dudes, so even when they try to do stuff from a female-centric POV, or to blatantly cater to ladies in the audience, it's still men doing the writing, and it's actually hilarious how what men think women want from fictional romance is NOT AT ALL what women actually want from romance writing.

 

Yeah, don't disagree with that at all. They are making the exact same mistakes on The Flash (in a way it's worse because Laurel at least had her POV, Iris doesn't) so it's clear they still haven't realized anything.

[dtissagirl]

My problem with "strong female character" is that "strong" is supposed to mean well-written, but instead, a plethora of male writers just give women masculine characteristics instead. Have you ever heard of a "strong male character" trope in superhero/sci-fi/genre? No, because it's implied that a male superhero is strong. But he's also allowed to be several other things at the same time. "Strong female characters" tend to be written as only strong.

 

Two imo super awesome texts on the term:

1. http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2013/08/i-hate-strong-female-characters

2. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/magazine/a-plague-of-strong-female-characters.html?_r=0

 

And I thought Felicity was written as befitting the "sassy" trope from the get go. The head cocking and staring after "my coffee shop is in a bad neighborhood". Yelling at Walter on her second episode. Locking the foundry so Oliver couldn't leave.

[lemotomato]

I think she hadn't been that sassy in s1/2. From what I hear she only really started to talk back to Oliver in s3, and I think this was the turning point for many of the fans, especially men who've automatically related to Oliver (and probably some women, I dunno). I generally feel like that the leads, especially male leads, have it very easy with the audience perception, and Arrow is no different. Both Felicity and Laurel are treated way worse for their mistakes, perceived or real, than Oliver ever is.

This is definitely a misconception, and I don't even know how it became so widely propagated. Felicity's been sassy from her very first scene with Oliver (the skeptical head tilt in response to "my coffee shop is in a bad neighborhood"), and there were many examples of her putting Oliver in his place in seasons 1 and 2-- her first day on Team Arrow, when she told him off for threatening a guy with a young son; yelling at him for being self centered and not noticing Diggle's distress in 2x02; arguing with him about killing Slade in 2x23. And yet I still see people write that Felicity was a doormat and let Oliver walk all over her in seasons 1/2.

 

Jinx, dancingnancy. :)

[FurryFury]

Felicity's been sassy from her very first scene with Oliver (the skeptical head tilt in response to "my coffee shop is in a bad neighborhood"), and there were many examples of her putting Oliver in his place in seasons 1 and 2-- her first day on Team Arrow, when she told him off for threatening a guy with a young son; yelling at him for being self centered and not noticing Diggle's distress in 2x02; arguing with him about killing Slade in 2x23. And yet I still see people write that Felicity was a doormat and let Oliver walk all over her in seasons 1/2.

 

Not sure where I've written that she was a doormat. I've seen s1-2 myself and it has definitely been my impression that Felicity never questioned Oliver that much. Sure, she did have her own stance, but not more so than, say, Diggle. I just hear that she became more active in s3 - and really, even if she did, I don't blame her in any way because Oliver definitely should be talked back to.

[Chaser]

I don't think there is much difference in sass level. The difference in my opinion is that there was no misconception about motivations. Oliver couldn't dismiss her objections as the result of a broken heart. That and the two would talk it out if there was an issue. Not in S3. Everything was just harsh.

Edited July 1, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[strikera0]

I was thinking less in terms of viewer response, but rather in writing tropes. I'm a straight woman, and I respond to certain tropes in romance writing that are male-oriented. The one that comes to mind right now is the bad boy reforming for the love of a good girl trope. That's some serious male fantasy going on, but it works for me sometimes.

 

    

I'm actually pretty sure this is a female-oriented trope, simply because it's ever-present in romance fiction irregardless of the time period or culture (just look at the amount of Japanese shoujo manga featuring this stuff). I personally don't hate it (tropes are not bad, almost everything can be done well) and I definitely can sometimes (or even often) like the "bad boy" character type, but I prefer a more equal dynamic most of the time.

 

 

Yeah, the "bad boy changing his ways for the love of a good girl" trope is definitely female-oriented and based on the idea that women can change men. Unfortunately, too many women buy into that in real life and it makes them stick around in unhealthy and abusive relationships too long for their own good, but I digress.

[dtissagirl]

I think the biggest difference is that Felicity's opinion has a shit ton more weight to Oliver now, because he happens to be crazy in love with her.

Yeah, the "bad boy changing his ways for the love of a good girl" trope is definitely female-oriented and based on the idea that women can change men. Unfortunately, too many women buy into that in real life and it makes them stick around in unhealthy and abusive relationships too long for their own good, but I digress.

 

I guess I see it differently -- the guy who is willing to change for the One Special Woman who "deserves" that he be decent. While all the other women were, you know, dirty hos.

Edited July 1, 2015 by dancingnancy

[lemotomato]

Not sure where I've written that she was a doormat. I've seen s1-2 myself and it has definitely been my impression that Felicity never questioned Oliver that much. Sure, she did have her own stance, but not more so than, say, Diggle. I just hear that she became more active in s3 - and really, even if she did, I don't blame her in any way because Oliver definitely should be talked back to.

I didn't say you did. But it's a sentiment often expressed by people who say that Felicity just went along with everything Oliver said or did in seasons 1/2. Yes, most of the time Oliver went ahead and did what he wanted anyway, but she always gave him an earful if she disagreed. In my opinion, that neither increased nor decreased in frequency in season 3. For all that she was vehemently and vocally opposed to Oliver working with Malcom, she stayed on the team (along with everyone else that were also against the plan)

[AyChihuahua]

She quit her first day on the job at the Arrowcave because she disagreed with a tactical decision of his.  She locked him in his own lair, and when he refused to back down from a decision with which she strongly disagreed, she walked out on the job.  Even after he tried to physically intimidate her, and I got to tell you, he's a big guy, most MEN would be physically intimidated by him.  How much "sassier" could she get?

 

Off the top of my head: S1

Lone Gunmen, sassily let him know she didn't believe him, kind of made fun of him for not knowing Hamlet, told him she didn't want to get in the middle of his Hamlet situation.

Bank Robbers: sassily gave him a hard time for lying about knowing Derek Reston, and for his father screwing all those workers out of their homes

Can't remember: sassily told Walter he'd be dumb to fire her

Black Arrow: made fun of archery, which he'd just said his friend was really into, asked him why he didn't knock

Vertigo: sassily made fun of his energy drink story; gave him a very disapproving look when he went Ollie on her

Odyssey: gave Digg a hard time re working with him, told him she'd only help him to find Walter, made fun of his computer setup

Dodger: locked him in his lair, quit, stared him down, made fun of him when he showed up to ask her to come back, made fun of both Digg and Oliver re their crap love lives

Vertigo Redux: tried to talk him out of his guilt tsunami re not killing the Count

Unfinished Business: stared him down re letting down Digg

Undertaking: overruled him re going into the underground casino; gave him a hard time re how he'd treated Digg

22: sassy to both Digg and Oliver when they kept bugging her re getting into MG mainframe, sassy to Det. Lance

23: if you're not leaving, i'm not leaving.

 

That's off the top of my head.  She was sassy from start to finish of her very first season.

Edited July 1, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[AyChihuahua]

S2: City of Heroes: sassed Oliver several times re quitting; gives him a hard time re his grades 

Identity: you're so into Laurel and your own issues you don't even notice Digg is sad he and Carly are dunzo; goes off on him re making her his EA

Dollmaker: "My life, my choice."

Crucible: not really sassy, but I am including it bc I love it "I believe you ordered the crate of stolen military weapons, Mr. Queen;" also calls Oliver the always-late CEO 

5: sasses Sara, an assassin she barely knows

Russia: sasses him several times re sleeping with Isabel

8: sasses him re his party sucking and being a jerk to Barry

9: sasses him again re being a jerk to Barry; talks back to him when he was a jerk to her re getting Barry to save his life

10: tells him to get his head out of his ass.  That is a quote. Gives him a hard time at first when he apologizes.

11: disagrees with him re Blood being bad; tells him he sure knows how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory

12: "Is that judgment I'm hearing?"

13: not sassy, but brave, telling him Moira's secret even knowing he may blame her, also confronted Moira and frankly Moira's much scarier than the Arrow

14: tells Sara to go to her dinner, goes to the bank alone knowing Oliver would hate it

17: tells Sara to kick Helena's ass

21: schemes with Digg to tranq Oliver (which I just love...Oliver needs a good tranqing towards the end of every season)

22: points out dropping a city block on the Mirakuru soldiers is murder (Oliver goes very back-and-forth re killing Slade's minions)

23: sasses Nyssa, cures Slade

 

I'm sure I'm forgetting tons, but the evidence doesn't lie.  Anyone who says she wasn't plenty sassy in S1 and S2 was simply not paying attention.