Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wonderwall]

With all her unsolicited assurances last night, I think Felicity has made it pretty clear that Oliver's not going to have to work for it at all.

 

I mean, she's still with Ray, right? To me, Felicity doesn't require much from Oliver. All she wants from him is his honesty, openness, trust, and for him to actually listen to her and not brush aside her thoughts. Felicity just wants Oliver to be Oliver and when he gets that back, when he starts fighting for himself and his future, I think that's when she'll start to take him more seriously and consider taking a step further in their relationship.

 

Like I said, it doesn't seem like much to me, but for Oliver, that's a hell of a lot. 

Oliver had a real thing that happened that caused him to make the decision that he made regarding them. I still never understood how he's the bad guy. Or doing something intentionally to Felicity because of real stuff that has happened to him. Just not feeling the whole Oliver is getting what he deserves with Felicity. Like Oliver needs to be punished.

 

I don't think he deserves to be punished. But I think he should be responsible for his actions that drove him and Felicity away from one another. In the end, Oliver spilled the milk, he himself should clean it up. That's not punishment, that's just me wanting him to right his mistakes. 

[apinknightmare]

With all her unsolicited assurances last night, I think Felicity has made it pretty clear that Oliver's not going to have to work for it at all.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure all he'd have to do is say the word. 

[dcinmb]

I mean, she's still with Ray, right? To me, Felicity doesn't require much from Oliver. All she wants from him is his honesty, openness, trust, and for him to actually listen to her and not brush aside her thoughts. Felicity just wants Oliver to be Oliver and when he gets that back, when he starts fighting for himself and his future, I think that's when she'll start to take him more seriously and consider taking a step further in their relationship.

 

Like I said, it doesn't seem like much to me, but for Oliver, that's a hell of a lot. 

I don't think he deserves to be punished. But I think he should be responsible for his actions that drove him and Felicity away from one another. In the end, Oliver spilled the milk, he himself should clean it up. That's not punishment, that's just me wanting him to right his mistakes. 

 

Maybe we have different definitions of "working for it." I'm fairly certain that all Oliver is going to have to do to "win" Felicity back is tell her he's ready to be with her. Sure, that will require a lot of introspection and growth on his part but it's not like he's going to have to grovel or woo her with grand gestures.

[wonderwall]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure all he'd have to do is say the word. 

I hope they show Felicity having some trust issues with Oliver in the beginning. I can totally imagine her being weary of when Oliver will leave or when things between them are going to end or whatever. It keeps up with her abandonment issues and it'd be cool to see Felicity still being affected by Oliver pushing her away this season

Maybe we have different definitions of "working for it." I'm fairly certain that all Oliver is going to have to do to "win" Felicity back is tell her he's ready to be with her. Sure, that will require a lot of introspection and growth on his part but it's not like he's going to have to grovel or woo her with grand gestures.

I suppose so. IMO Oliver working for it actually means he has to grow and has to show Felicity that he's grown and won't leave her at a drop of a hat like in episode 3.01.

Edited March 19, 2015 by wonderwall

[icandigit]

 

I don't think he deserves to be punished. But I think he should be responsible for his actions that drove him and Felicity away from one another.

I guess I don't understand why he should be held reponsible for his actions. He's made a decision, he's suffering the consequences of his decision. What else is there?

[Guest]

I agree with most of you here. I don't think Felicity was intentionally flirtatious. It's just the natural way they are together when they're communicating and being their true selves. They can't help it. It's just so easy for them once you remove all the contrived bullshit from their dynamic. Ah, bliss. 

 

And I definitely think Felicity being with Ray has taken the pressure off somewhat. They're hiding behind it right now. I just hope it doesn't continue beyond this season.

[wonderwall]

I guess I don't understand why he should be held reponsible for his actions. He's made a decision, he's suffering the consequences of his decision. What else is there?

 

Him rectifying the mistakes he's made. Because it'd be like an alcoholic acknowledging they have a problem and have made mistakes but they don't actually do anything to fix it. Oliver made a mistake. He was held responsible. He suffered the consequences of his decisions. But now he has to fix it for everyone to truly get over it. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by wonderwall

[icandigit]

I still don't understand. What did he do that was so awful?

[wonderwall]

I still don't understand. What did he do that was so awful?

 

I'm not saying that what he did was awful. I'm just saying that he stumbled and lost his way and in the process he's made some mistakes (and in this case, his mistake was pushing Felicity away hurting both of them in the process). When you make a mistake you don't just sit there and wallow and just suffer from the consequences 24/7 expecting things to magically become better again. You take active steps to actually rectify your mistakes. Sometimes all it takes is a simple apology, in Oliver's case though, all it takes is for him to fight for himself, for him to grow as a man, and to show Felicity that he's not going to push her away again. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

Something happened and Oliver made a stupid decision that affected Felicity without listening to her view on it (stopping their relationship before it got started), and ended up hurting Felicity a lot.  Basically, she ended up getting punished, badly, when she hadn't done anything wrong.

 

Should he be punished? No, but he should take the responsibility for hurting her like that.

 

And he needs to learn that you can't make decisions for another person because often you end up hurting them worse then they hurt before, as he did with both Thea and Quentin this episode.

[blixie]

 

I guess I don't understand why he should be held reponsible for his actions. He's made a decision, he's suffering the consequences of his decision.

 

I think he, like all mature adult humans, needs to TAKE responsibility for his actions and that is via the consequences of his choices and statements. Telling the woman you love that you can't be with her "now, and maybe not ever." Is that she will move the fuck on with her life. This argument is insisting on a distinction w/o a substantive difference.

[icandigit]

 

I think he, like all mature adult humans, needs to TAKE responsibility for his actions and that is via the consequences of his choices and statements. Telling the woman you love that you can't be with her "now, and maybe not ever." Is that she will move the fuck on with her life. This argument is insisting on a distinction w/o a substantive difference.

 

I don't get what your saying. And I don't understand what the big deal is. So I will leave it alone.

[lexicon]

I don't know about Oliver, but I'm sure that one of the top entries on my list of 'things I really want the girl I'm in love with to say' is 'even though I'm fucking this other guy, I'm so happy you're in my life'.

 

Yeesh. It's not quite as bad as Beckett obliquely telling Castle to keep showing up and trying to win her even though she had no intention of dumping her boyfriend, but it's not great at all. Felicity single? Lovely sentiment. Felicity with another guy? Not so much. Who writes this nonsense?

 

I don't see how her saying this was objectionable at all. Even if she's in a relationship, which we're not certain of as she's only said she and RP are 'something', she'd be allowed to have friends. Yes even super sexy vigilante friends who she's in love with and who love her in return, even though they can't be together now... because reasons. Let's face it she and Oliver love each other (nobody can convince me otherwise) but aren't together now and are only friends, so irrespective of those feelings, all she's doing is telling a good friend who's struggling with a very big issue and is at a major crossroads in his life that he matters to her and that in as much as he claims to care about her happiness, having him in her life (even if they're not together) makes her happy.

 

Yes the feelings make this a messier and more complicated issue than if they were just friends but she is in no way offering him anything more than the bare fact that him being in her life is important. I can't see how even Ray could object to that, even if he had a greater claim on Felicity than just being involved in 'something' with her. You don't stop caring about the people in your life just because you're now dating someone. 

 

As for Oliver, he should be and was demonstrably happy to hear this. He loves her but pushed her away. To be frank the only reason she's fucking another guy is because Oliver won't step up to the plate, has told her time and time again that he can't be with her. Part of the reason he contemplated the offer was because he saw Felicity and RP and felt like he was going to die alone (his words), all she did was to tell him that in her opinion taking that offer would be a mistake and that he was still important to her, that Ray or no Ray, his (Oliver's) continued presence in her life was what was required to make her happy. It was a powerful statement and it needed to be to get through to him. It was her way of saying that whether they were together or not he mattered to her and to her happiness and that he would not be dying alone. I for one, loved it and thought it was a very timely reminder that under all the love and angst we've seen this season, Felicity and Oliver's relationship has a strong foundation of friendship. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by lexicon

[kismet]

Aaah, the modern dating world. Where a "something" and "friend, well more than a friend, not sure what we were" are now officially eligible as definitions.

 

Personally, I agree with CarrieAnne, whatever she is doing with Ray I think somehow opened her up to realize her feelings towards Oliver. Isn't it funny in a way, Ray & Felicity have sex - it inspires him to finish his suit and it inspires her to be more invested in herself one could write a whole thesis on the effect of gender differences on the influence of sex on confidence. But I digress...

 

Agree that the majority of their flirting was unintentional. She didn't really overtly flirt with OQ. It was more a reopening of the friendly intimacy that they have been building over the years. They have a shorthand that you saw in some of their facial expressions and non-verbal interactions. Its just a closeness that is almost instinctual. Even if they were to remain platonic (which I don't think or want to happen) this flirty banter I think would remain so long as they are friends, its been there since s1 when they were not even a romantic option. The only comment that seemed outright flirty was the handsome comment, but even that is relatively benign. Whatever the "something" is with Ray, I dont believe she did anything to betray him.

 

Like others have said once you remove the forced angst, this banter is how they have interacted with each other for years. Their connection is deep, that is just the truth. First & foremost, they are friends. TBH that "friendzone" comment I think was a relief to Oliver. I truly believe that he thought their friendship was over. As much as he wants more than a friendship, for him losing Felicity as friend has been relatively devastating to his psyche. Look at the decisions he's made since she stopped being there as a friendly sounding board. Yes he pushed her away, so he needs to take responsibility for that, but for once in a long time he realized that Felicity still cares about him regardless of whether she has moved on with someone else. OQ needs reassurance that he is still wanted & needed in the world. Its one thing for him to self-isolate and compartmentalize, but I think he was believing that he was on longer needed in any capacity (including friendship) in SC. Diggle told him last week that he needed him & saw him as a brother. And this week Felicity told him flat out that he was one of her closest friends. In Oliver's mind since his return from the dead, I think the only person he counted as a loved one that still needed him was Thea. Beyond feeling like he failed everyone else, I feel like he believed they no longer wanted him. Thats pretty lonely for a man who's used to being alone.

 

Lastly, it was nice to finally have Felicity verbalize that she mutually needs Oliver in her life to be happy. I was waiting for her to actually verbalize her feelings, so that was a welcome relief. It was also a relief to just have the old Felicity back that seemed to understand Oliver and try to reach him through all of his blockheadness. I loved her polite persistence in trying different ways to get him to admit that there was more bothering him, and on different occasions throughout the episode. That is what a caring friend does, and at the end of the day I will always want Oliver & Felicity to maintain their friendship as it makes them both better versions of themselves.

[InsertWordHere]

I don't think Oliver should be punished for not pursuing a romantic relationship with Felicity, even it harmed their friendship. Two people have to agree to be in a relationship, but two people do not have to agree not to be in a relationship. IMO, if one person does not want to be with another person for any reason, they have the right to make that decision. However, if he eventually decides that he wants to enter a relationship with her, then yes, he needs to realize how much his decision hurt her and take steps to prove to her that he won't do the same thing again. I just don't think it was cruel of him to make that choice in the first place, not when it has hurt him as much as it has hurt her.

[KirkB]

Well, if Oliver really does love Felicity, and if every time he looks at her a part of him wants to be with her but knows he can't because of his own choices, then he is already being punished just being around her. Only it's self torture. 

[kismet]

Oliver loves Felicity, but he realized that he was not able to be in a romantic relationship with her and made that unilateral decision. It was mature decision for him to do considering his romantic past where from the looks of it he would string the girls he cared about along getting whatever he needed from them. Felicity also chose to walk away from him and not ask him to try to fight for them. They were both doing what they felt was best for each other, which is respectable & honorable, even if it wasn't what I think was the wisest. They were both hurt by those decisions, there is no need to punish him or her more for it. Like people have mentioned above they have already suffered or are suffering enough. Moving forward if they do pursue a relationship, then they both have to recognize their tendencies as well as their partners' tendencies and find a way to work through their issues together.

[apinknightmare]

Honestly, I think the only thing Oliver would really have to prove to Felicity would come after they start dating, because I could see her rightfully being a little skittish at the possibility of him trying to break things off to protect her if/when something bad happened. After the first time something blew up and he didn't go running though, I imagine she'd feel pretty secure though. 

[statsgirl]

Well, if Oliver really does love Felicity, and if every time he looks at her a part of him wants to be with her but knows he can't because of his own choices, then he is already being punished just being around her. Only it's self torture. 

 

Self torture -- that's Oliver's specialty.

 

I don't think Oliver should be punished for not pursuing a romantic relationship with Felicity, even it harmed their friendship. [snip]  I just don't think it was cruel of him to make that choice in the first place, not when it has hurt him as much as it has hurt her.

I think it was cruel not to let her have any input into the decision, and then to push her away not only as a romantic interest but also as a friend.  He stopped doing the nice things for her that he had been doing, he refused to let her have into into the Team Arrow decisions that he talked over with Diggle.  Sure, it was easier for him to keep Felicity at arm's length but it really hurt her because Oliver and Diggle were her best friends and the people she could talk to when things were going badly for her.  She even ended up in Ray's bed because Oliver refused to let her into the discussion on going to Nanda Parbat.

 

Really, no matter how much Oliver punishes himself over this, I don't think it's going to be enough for me.

 

Speaking of hurt people by making decisions for them..... Thea is really messed up now and it's not just because of Malcolm Merlyn.  Oliver didn't tell her about Team Arrow (questionable but maybe okay), he didn't tell her how bad Malcolm really was when he brought her back from Corto Maltese, and  he ddn't tell her that she killed Sara and that he was going to fight Ra's al Ghul.  And then he not only ignored her anger about Malcolm by going to save him, he installed Malcolm on her living room couch.  Malcolm Merlyn has treated Thea very badly, because he is insane, but Oliver hasn't been doing all that much better for her.

Edited March 20, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

I don't understand - how is one party declining to be in a relationship with another one making their decisions for them? I have a right not to be in a relationship with someone I love if I don't think I can - the reasons are my own to understand and live with, and not up for debate. And who would want to be with someone who didn't want to or think they could be with them? 

 

The withholding of friendship I get being upset over, even though I don't think he did it so much because he couldn't be with her, but because a part of him knew she was right in her objections to what he was doing and he didn't want to listen to that part or was afraid of not being able to do what he thought he needed to do if he listened to her reasoning. Which, yes...it's stupid. But it's not malicious or something he needs to be punished for. 

 

 

She even ended up in Ray's bed because Oliver refused to let her into the discussion on going to Nanda Parbat.

 

No, she ended up in Ray's bed because she wanted to be there. Let's not take her agency away from her. She was feeling hurt and yeah, that might've been how she chose to deal with those feelings, but Felicity isn't doing a damn thing that she doesn't want to do, and Oliver cannot be held accountable for that. 

Edited March 20, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

She went to Ray because Oliver and Diggle shut her out of their conversation about Nanda Parbat. She even told Ray that it was nice to  have someone listen to her and think that she's right.  She didn't go to Ray to be in his bed, she wanted to be with someone who valued her and respected her opinion because the people she thought were her friends rejected her.

 

If Oliver had let her give her opinion about his going to Nanda Parbat and listened to her, she wouldn't have felt hurt and gone to Ray to try to save him.  There's agency, and there's agency.  Sometimes you can deal actively and change a situation, and sometimes the only thing you can do is how you accept it when someone else makes the decision about what going to happen to you.

 

I don't understand - how is one party declining to be in a relationship with another one making their decisions for them? I have a right not to be in a relationship with someone I love if I don't think I can - the reasons are my own to understand and live with, and not up for debate. And who would want to be with someone who didn't want to or think they could be with them?

One thing that has been consistent in the Oliver/Felicity relationship, from 1x15 when she walked out on him because he was about to arrow the single father of a little boy to 3x16 when she told him to figure out why he was doing the Arrow thing and he did, is that she presents a different way of looking at things to him, and he often then changes his mind.  When Oliver considers what Felicity says, he moves forward on his journey to be his better self.

 

If Oliver didn't care for Felicity, then he has every right to say no, he doesn't want to be in a relationship with her.

 

But if Oliver loved Felicity, then it's no longer only about him and what he wants, it's about them both.  He should have listened to her and what she thought about what he was thinking.about them as a couple.

 

This whole season has been about Oliver making the wrong decision for other people and consequently hurting them, from something minor like telling Laurel not to fight or benching Diggle (notice that Diggle refused to stay benched), to something with greater consequences like leaving telling Quentin about Sara up to Laurel, to something very hurtful to Thea when he withheld the information about Sara's death and most recently forced her to live with Malcolm. 

 

Whether Oliver wants to see it or not, he's in a relationship with Felicity, just as he's in one with Diggle, and with Roy and Thea.  Diggle was hurt when Oliver 'died' and weighed down by the guilt that he had failed to protect Oliver. So when Oliver said he was going back to confront Ra's, Diggle said he would go with him. Oliver listened and ended up taking Diggle.

 

That's what you do in a relationship, whether it's friendship or romantic, you respect the other person and listen to what they have to say.  Oliver repeatedly failed to respect Felicity this season, either as a friend or someone he kept dangling maybes in front of after she asked him to end things completely if that's what he wanted.  The 'maybes' actually made it much harder for Felicity to accept things and be able to move on because he kept giving her a double message.  How cruel is it to say to someone "I know I love you" and then come back and dismiss her concerns with "you're just upset because you thought we could be together now and we can't"?

Edited March 20, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

Im trying to remember most of s3 and I don't think he seriously pushed her friendship away until after he returned from NP. Their relationship in s3a was strained after the failed date & Sara's death but I saw it more as 2 people trying to figure out how to go back to being friends/co-worker after being something more (esp when it stalled before it became more). Its seemed like a natural awkwardness that happens in friendships & workplaces all the time when failed romances still have to coexist together. He did stop touching her and doing the little things, but I will never hold that against him because I think he was trying to honor her wishes which was to not dangle maybes. He was trying to do right by her by not leading her on. The whole Cupid comms speech was a little cruel, but I don't think he meant for it to be that cruel to her - he was trying to convince a slightly crazy Cupid so it had to be more forceful than if he was having a conversation with Felicity herself. I think he was on his way to talking to her and to apologize but then he saw her kissing Palmer & probably thought it was better to just not address it since she was now moving on. He was abiding by his belief that he wanted her to be happy and it seemed like she was finding a way to figure that out. He didn't want to mess that up since nothing had really changed and he was still not able to be with her. Then everything picked up and the moment was lost to get back to that moment.

 

It was really after he returned from NP and she made it clear that she was not interested in him, that he firmly pushed her friendship away. I think her speech to him convinced him that she was done with him personally (friendship & romance). She had made it clear that she was there for the mission to protect SC, but everything with MM & Ras was not something she was willing to participate in. So he does what he does & pushes her away for reasons. Is it cruel, yes. Is it calculated & strategic, probably. He does not want to seek her counsel because he feels she has spoken her piece on it. Her yelling & snapping at him, sent a clear message about her position on things. He only gets Diggles opinion, because Dig stays & makes him listen. Dig makes sure OQ knows what he thinks & basically manhandled his way onto the NP mission. Im not blaming FS for walking away or not making her sentiments known, it was her choice. Clearly she was done with his bullheadedness & that is fine. But it should not be held against OQ that he didn't seek out her opinion when he already knew what it was. She had declared herself as not part of that particular mission. Never mind, he wasn't looking for alternatives, so in his head his plan was already set.

 

As for Ray, Felicity is a grown woman and can choose to do whatever she wants with him. From a psychological & observational perspective, has every major romantic step in their relationship been a direct response to something Oliver did, I think so. Does that bode well for their relationship, No. Is it a healthy response, well that's debatable. Do I think as it stands now the relationship is a rebound, yes. Can they convince me that there might be a future for them, I doubt it. Since they've gotten together Ray has seemed more interested in the suit than her, but then again he seemed that way before they got together. I respect that they are attracted to each other & share many interests, but I have not seen the building blocks for a successful long-term romantic relationship. As for a nice & fun something that brings them some happiness & perspective that I can understand.

[apinknightmare]

 

 

She went to Ray because Oliver and Diggle shut her out of their conversation about Nanda Parbat. 

 

No, she went to Ray because she was concerned about his well being and told him she was going to make him eat and take a shower and sleep, and then once he did that she'd give him the password he needed to get back into his server. She went back there to give him the password, which she would've done regardless of whether or not Oliver and Diggle let her in on their conversation. Was she hurt? Yeah, probably. Did she do what she did because of that hurt? Maybe. She'd kissed him before, she was obviously attracted to him, so it's not like it might not have happened anyway. But what Felicity chooses to do is on Felicity, not Oliver. 

 

 

 

If Oliver didn't care for Felicity, then he has every right to say no, he doesn't want to be in a relationship with her.

But if Oliver loved Felicity, then it's no longer only about him and what he wants, it's about them both.  He should have listened to her and what she thought about what he was thinking.about them as a couple.

 

Oliver has a right to say that he doesn't want to be in a relationship with Felicity at any time, regardless of how he feels about her. If he loves her, wouldn't he want what's best for her? Wouldn't he want her to be happy? And if he doesn't think he can be himself or be in a relationship, then how is he that person? How can he make her happy? To me, no one should commit until they're fully ready to commit, because otherwise you're just delaying the heartbreak. If she's got to convince him to be in a relationship, then the thing is doomed anyway, and Felicity's smart enough to know that.

 

 

 

Whether Oliver wants to see it or not, he's in a relationship with Felicity, just as he's in one with Diggle, and with Roy and Thea.  Diggle was hurt when Oliver 'died' and weighed down by the guilt that he had failed to protect Oliver. So when Oliver said he was going back to confront Ra's, Diggle said he would go with him. Oliver listened and ended up taking Diggle.

That's what you do in a relationship, whether it's friendship or romantic, you respect the other person and listen to what they have to say.

 

Listening to what a friend has to say does not equal deferring to their opinion, and not deferring to their opinion doesn't mean you don't value their friendship. And it was easier for Oliver go relent to Diggle, because Diggle wasn't steadfastly against him going in the first place - Felicity was. 

Edited March 20, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Oliver didn't know that Diggle wasn't completely against his going to Nanda Parbat when Diggle told everyone except the two of them to leave the room.  Up to then, Diggle had been against working with Malcolm Merlyn and for all Oliver knew he would have tried to talk Oliver out of going.

 

Felicity might still have gone to see Ray afterwards if she had been allowed into the conversation with Oliver and Diggle, and she may even have slept with him.  But in that case, she would have made the choice based on how she felt about Ray alone, not because she was hurt and felt abandoned by her friends and needed Ray's comfort because no one else would respect her opinion.  Two completely different situations.

 

Listening to what a friend has to say does not equal deferring to their opinion, and not deferring to their opinion doesn't mean you don't value their friendship.

But Oliver didn't listen to Felicity's opinion at all, while he did listen to Diggle twice in the episode.  Oliver shut her out not because of anything that she had done but because of his feelings and lack of complex thought.  Since he got back, Oliver only treated Felicity like a friend when he wanted her to do something for him; the rest of the time he shut her out.

 

 The whole Cupid comms speech was a little cruel, but I don't think he meant for it to be that cruel to her - he was trying to convince a slightly crazy Cupid so it had to be more forceful than if he was having a conversation with Felicity herself. I think he was on his way to talking to her and to apologize but then he saw her kissing Palmer & probably thought it was better to just not address it since she was now moving on. He was abiding by his belief that he wanted her to be happy and it seemed like she was finding a way to figure that out. He didn't want to mess that up since nothing had really changed and he was still not able to be with her. Then everything picked up and the moment was lost to get back to that moment.

I'd say that scenario was very convenient for Oliver because he didn't actually have to talk to her.  But two episodes later, he told her he loved her. And then as soon as he got back, he told her they couldn't be together. WTH?

 

Let's look at how Oliver has been treating Felicity over the past season or so. He slept with Isabel with a high chance of Felicity finding out, and when she did, he saw that she was hurt (scene at QC offices).  He told her he couldn't be with someone he really cared for, and then got into a relationship with Sara, someone he clearly cared for, with lots of PDA in front of Felicity.  Then he told Felicity he loved her only it was a ruse to fool Slade, and even on Lian Yu he didn't say anything about having genuine feelings for her.

 

He flirted with her over the summer and then asked her on a real date, an indication that he might be serious about being in a relationship with her. But then he made the decision that it was over before it began, knowing the she would be upset about it but refusing to talk to her about their relationship in any way.  She asked him to stop dangling maybes (because she was getting hurt on the roller coaster) but he refused to, he backwards told her he loved her, and later told her "and you know how I feel about her" implying affection. But when Ray asked her for a business dinner and she told Oliver, hoping that he would say "don't go, I want to be with you", he said "Do what you want", and then interrupted  her during the dinner to do Arrow work.  Later he knew she was on comms when he said the speech to Cupid and even though he went to talk to her, he still didn't, not then of course because she was kissing Ray but later.  At this point, Felicity is so thoroughly confused about what he's doing to the extent that she believes he regrets kissing her at all.

 

Then as he's going to fight Ra's, he tells that he loves her so she dreams about them but as soon as he gets back he again shuts the door on any relationship between them and even more, shuts her out of his Team Arrow decisions while Diggle remains his confidante.  Why? Because he can't take having her close to him?  Oliver's been playing Felicity like a yo-yo all season..

 

Oliver has a right to say that he doesn't want to be in a relationship with Felicity at any time, regardless of how he feels about her. If he loves her, wouldn't he want what's best for her? Wouldn't he want her to be happy? And if he doesn't think he can be himself or be in a relationship, then how is he that person? How can he make her happy?

It's not up to Oliver to make Felicity happy. But it's also not up to him to decide what is going to make her happy and make that decision for her.  And even less so when she asked him to stop dangling maybes and he won't do it. 

 

If Oliver doesn't want to be in a relationship with Felicity, he needs to stop telling her he loves her and to stop making decisions for her.  And he needs to go back to treating her the same way he did before he screwed this up, if that's what she wants. Because he also needs to talk to her honestly and openly for a change, and to be willing to listen to what she has to say and what she wants for a change. He hasn't done any of that in terms of their relationship.  Felicity still has no idea what they are, but she's so pathetically grateful he's talking to her again that she's not going to question it.

 

I think there are two issues here:  first, that Oliver has been making decisions, bad decisions, for a number of people this season.  His treatment of Felicity was another one of them.  The trouble is that while some people it didn't affect very much (Diggle and Laurel), others were hurt (Lance) and  Felicity and especially Thea potentially very hurt, like broken hurt.  Relationships have to be two way, you have to respect the other person to listen to what they want, not just dismiss it because you think you know best.  Forcing Thea to live with the crazy Malcolm Merlyn, who brainwashed her to kill an old friend and now tells her to kill him, is tantamount to mental cruelty to Thea. No wonder she had to get out of there and go to Roy.

 

The second problem is that Oliver told Felicity he loved her, held out a relationship and when she accepted, he unilaterally made the decision it wasn't on, while continuing to let her know how much he cares for her but she can't have him.  It's crazy-making.

 

I can handwave it  because the show is called Arrow and it's about Oliver's pain and growth. But when I look at it from Thea's and Felicity's points of view and how Oliver has treated them this season, the two people he says he loves the most, I find it hard to find sympathy for him.

 

And I think I've just talked myself out of shipping Olicity. Maybe Oliver should take Ra's up on his offer because he's certainly screwing up  his relationships with Thea and Felicity.

Edited March 21, 2015 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

And I think I've just talked myself out of shipping Olicity. Maybe Oliver should take Ra's up on his offer because he's certainly screwing up  his relationships with Thea and Felicity.

 

That sucks! I, like you, am hoping that Oliver will mature and treat Felicity differently next season, but I don't think I'm ready to give them up yet because I still believe that they make each other better people. Oliver shutting himself out of everyone made him make ridiculous decisions not just with Malcolm, but personal decisions as well. Hopefully his internal struggle gets 'solved' this season. 

 

Also I don't think Oliver's decisions affected Laurel as much because they barely interact and they're barely on friendly terms. As for Diggle, he has his own thing going on. Their lives aren't as entwined to Oliver's as Felicity and Thea's are. 

 

ETA: Also I think last episode Oliver showed a lot of growth just by letting Felicity be. He cares for her happiness over his, only this time, he's actually showing it instead of saying it. He made a decision, he understands that these are the consequences of his decisions. Hopefully he stops brooding over it. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

I agree, they do make each other better people. But this season has screwed it up so much with that stupid "we must keep them apart" angst.  Heaven forbid these people act like adults.

 

I don't think Oliver's decisions affect Laurel much because she's moved on from him. When he told her not to fight, she just went out and found someone else to train her.  They also don't affect Diggle much because Diggle has a good life and a good sense of himself apart from Team Arrow.  Oliver's decision to fight Ra's alone did end up hurting Diggle so the next time, Diggle just refused to listen to Oliver and went with him to Nanda Parbat.

 

I think they hurt Thea and Felicity most because they are the two who most need Oliver, Thea in the sense that he's the only sane member of her family left, and Felicity because she loves him.  The decision not to tell Lance about Sara's death did hurt  him, partly because he couldn't bury and mourn his daughter properly, and partly because Lance now feels isolated from everyone he thought he could trust. I don't know if it was on purpose but isolation has been a big theme on the show this year.

 

 

I think the issue is, is that you're sort of only seeing this from Felicity's POV. Before they started warming up to one another at the end of episode 16, Oliver and Felicity weren't really on friendly terms. Felicity told Oliver that romance was off the table and was giving him the cold shoulder for 3ish episodes, and I think that Oliver was respecting her by keeping his distance. Felicity was angry with him, I don't think he was comfortable opening up to a person who's angry with him. That's why Oliver went to Diggle. He and Felicity still weren't on solid terms. BUT THEN Felicity talked to him, she opened up to him, she said that Oliver made his choice and he should live with it, she even guided him. That was the turning point of their relationship and now I think they're heading back to being the type of people who rely on one another. If Oliver still keeps things from Felicity after this episode, then yeah, he's being an ass, but considering the circumstances they were in before episode 16, I totally get why Oliver would keep his distance (which in turn resulted in Felicity being excluded). Also, Felicity was never lied to. Oliver never lied to her this season. So I disagree with that statement. 

 

Felicity put up that line for herself ("I don't want to be a woman you love") and not for Oliver at all. Felicity putting that line there hurt Oliver because she essentially told him that she doesn't want to be with him. I don't think any guy would ever want to hear that from a woman they love so much. I thoroughly believe Oliver was crushed when she said that. I thoroughly believe he was crushed when he found out Felicity moved on. Felicity's decision to put down the line was never about Oliver, it was about herself. It was about her finally taking control of her life and not wanting to be hurt by Oliver anymore. So I completely disagree with you with regards to Felicity letting Oliver go easily. 

 

I think we're going to get the fun O/F dynamic soon. At least I hope so. I truly believe that the worst is over regardless of whether or not Felicity is with Ray. Oliver has shown that he respect Felicity's decision to be with Ray. I don't think he's going to push her because like Stephen said, he believes she's happy with Ray and he's not gonna screw that up. So I just think Oliver's going to let Felicity be until she breaks up with Ray. 

 

I completely disagree with your last paragraph. But I'm going to go to bed now, so I'll get back to you on that later? :D My brain is so fried lmao

I think they weren't on friendly terms because Oliver came back from the mountain all "my way or the doorway" and Felicity reacted to that.

 

I was thinking ... what has Oliver wanted from Felicity all season?  He believes that he loves her and he wants to be able to tell her that (e.g. at the end of The Secret Origins ep) but he also doesn't want to be with her in a relationship because he feels that he loses his focus if he is.  He wants her to support him in decisions he's already made but he doesn't want her to argue with him or point out when he's making a stupid decision.  (I can understand his feelings on the decision part, no one wants to be told they're making a mistake but that's life.)

 

What does Felicity want?  She wanted to be in a relationship with him and when he shut that down, I guess she wanted to talk to him about it. She doesn't want him to dangle maybes (e.g. tell her he loves her and walk away), and she wants to be able to talk to him about it if he's doing something that's against everything he worked for (teaming up with Merlyn) or when he's going off to get himself killed.  What did she get?  Oliver wouldn't talk to her about their relationship (and it is a relationship even if they're not dating), he kept dangling maybes alternating with telling her flat out he refuses to be with her, and when she was upset about teaming up with MM, he mansplain'd it away that she was angry he wouldn't date her.  Probably she was upset about not dating after he'd told her he loved her but that still doesn't negate the rightness of her thoughts on MM.  It was Oliver who told Felicity that romance was off the table in the alleyway, not the other way around.  Saying "I don't want to be a woman you love" may have been intended to hurt him but I think more to express her frustration at what an idiot he's being, a desperate attempt to get through to him.  For that, she got pushed out of the inner circle even more than she had been before.

 

Maybe Oliver was crushed when he saw her kissing Ray, but how many times can he tell her that he loves her but refuses to be with her and expect her to hang around waiting in case he changes his mind?  As Felicity said, that he is not with her right now is entirely his decision.

 

So where are we at the end of The Offer?  Oliver has a relationship with Felicity where she supports the decisions he's already made (as opposed to having input before he makes them or trying to talk him out of something stupid) and he can be as affectionate towards her as he wants to be without actually have to step up to the mark.  For Felicity, after two months of being excluded by Oliver and Diggle and only told of Ra's offer by Diggle because Oliver still wasn't talking to her, she is now back to supporting Oliver unconditionally in his decisions and letting him be as intimate with her as he wants to be but now with a barrier against a relationship so he doesn't have to worry about putting his affection where his words are.

 

So I end up seeing it as Oliver getting the relationship with Felicity that he wants (even to her dating Ray which he may think he doesn't want in reality it lets him off the hook in terms of not being expected to be in a relationship with her himself) while Felicity has given in on a whole bunch of stuff in exchange for not being shut out by Oliver any more.

Edited March 21, 2015 by statsgirl

[looptab]

Regarding the discussion on whether Oliver made the decision of not being in a relationship for the both of them, I think that's implicit, in the sense that someone who breaks up with someone else is making the decision for the both of them. Except in the case of consensual break-ups, divorces or whatever, when the two take the decision together, that's the way it is.

However, I wouldn't say this applies to O/F. Felicity might have decided to stay in a corner in the Foundry, waiting patiently for the day Oliver decided he could be with her. He basically said, "Not now, but maybe someday". But she decided not to wait for that "someday", so she did make the decision, too.

 

 He does not want to seek her counsel because he feels she has spoken her piece on it. Her yelling & snapping at him, sent a clear message about her position on things. He only gets Diggles opinion, because Dig stays & makes him listen. Dig makes sure OQ knows what he thinks & basically manhandled his way onto the NP mission. Im not blaming FS for walking away or not making her sentiments known, it was her choice. Clearly she was done with his bullheadedness & that is fine. But it should not be held against OQ that he didn't seek out her opinion when he already knew what it was. She had declared herself as not part of that particular mission. Never mind, he wasn't looking for alternatives, so in his head his plan was already set.

 

This. Dig knew perfectly well that Oliver wasn't just going for Thea, just as Felicity did, but in that occasion, Dig tried to make Oliver talk, and see things from his pov. He went along with the crazy Nanda Parbat mission because he knew that no matter what he said, Oliver was going to do it anyway. (This is still nonsense to me, but let's try to find reasons behind these characters actions even when there isn't any).

 

 

he didn't tell her how bad Malcolm really was when he brought her back from Corto Maltese,

I believe at this point he didn't know Thea was in contact with Merlyn? He wasn't even aware she knew he was alive. He found that out in The Climb.

Also, I don't feel like blaming Lance shutting him out on Oliver. That's all Laurel. Yes, they should have showed us the Team trying to convince her to tell her father, and since they didn't, they're sort of all culpable, but in my eyes that's Laurel's fault.

 

On another note, now that the high from the episode has gone, I'm dubious about Felicity's line "As long as you're in my life, I'm happy". I don't even know why. It's a beautiful line, but I don't know if I'm glad they chose to insert it in this particular moment in time between them. There also might be a part of me that wanted him to say it to her, instead. I don't know, haha.

[apinknightmare]

Felicity might still have gone to see Ray afterwards if she had been allowed into the conversation with Oliver and Diggle, and she may even have slept with him. But in that case, she would have made the choice based on how she felt about Ray alone, not because she was hurt and felt abandoned by her friends and needed Ray's comfort because no one else would respect her opinion. Two completely different situations.

So, if Oliver had heard Felicity out and then still gone and done what he felt like he needed to do in that moment, her sleeping with Ray would've still been his fault? Because what you're advocating for here isn't him considering her opinion, it's doing what she wants him to. Seems like that's a lot of what the issue is here, that he's not doing what she wants him to?

Edited March 21, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

I haven't watched since 308, and before that i've only watched 301, 305, 307 & 308 and haven't even watched the Olicity scenes on YouTube. As such I don't feel I have a right to offer an opinion or judgement. However, I've been reading this thread for awhile now and I noticed this article in the media thread (examiner review) and it touched on some things i saw discussed here. Figured I'd bring it over.

Now, the restored lightness between them runs the risk of rankling in light of Felicity's new "something" with Ray. Oliver and Felicity scrape by under scrutiny, however, due to the sense that they're not deliberately flirting. Instead, each of their scenes together progresses as though Oliver missed her too much to be cold any longer and Felicity is so thrilled that Oliver is being a real boy around her again that she'll say anything - no matter how silly - to keep him open with her. She didn't call him handsome to string him along; she was just excited to be friends again.

In "The Offer," Oliver and Felicity manage to regain a level of emotional intimacy not seen since before their failed date without cheapening the fundamental integrity of their dynamic or cuckolding Ray. In fact, without Ray's new role, the stiffness between the hero and his hacker might have continued indefinitely. He's a buffer between them, cutting through all of those dangled maybes and returning them to the walls of a safe zone of permissible affection. Their relationship may well be saved by romance being taken from the equation for the moment, and viewers can sit back and enjoy the renewed friendliness...until such a time as Oliver snaps and decides to test the integrity of those walls by throwing Felicity up against one to have his way with her.

[dtissagirl]

I really appreciate this discussion, because I legit don't see motivation in either Oliver or Felicity in the romance arc this season, that is organic and/or internal to the narrative. So I like reading about the internal conflicts you guys see, because it sometimes helps me to connect with a story better when other people are connecting with it.

 

Unfortunately, all I see are the external factors. I see Oliver not willing to be in a relationship with Felicity because it cannot happen until May Sweeps. The only thing the text of the show said about Oliver feeling like he can't be with Felicity is that he thinks she'll distract him from the mission. Except for the hilarity that Malcolm is a distraction from the mission, Ra's offer is a distraction from the mission, everything ever is distracting Oliver from the mission, but sure, let's say being in a relationship is the top #1 distraction and see if it sticks. Not with me, pals. It's an artificial stall tactic.

 

I see Felicity in a relationship with Palmer because now that she's fulfilling the role of Love Interest of the main character, she needs to be part of a love triangle because this is how the EPs think a romance storyline goes. And the "something" is with Palmer because they've already established that new heroes in this universe have to connect with Felicity, because she's a fan favorite.

 

However, there were a couple of things in 316 that made me look at the romance arc from inside the text, thank you Brian Ford Sullivan for still writing a tiny bit of character-driven story. Oliver's "I should have called" and "you don't owe me" at QC, and then Felicity telling him to his face that the only reason they're not together is because Oliver chose it so made me see that Oliver and Felicity have insanely huge amounts of respect for each other. They respect the other's choices -- even when they don't agree with them. And that's what I took from this episode. The foundation of their relationship, platonic or not, is still there, because of that respect.

[Guest]

Yeah, I'm pretty much with @dancingnancy on this. I'm able to look past all the frustrating bullcrap they've forced on Olicity this season because I know that the writers are doing this for reasons. I can hand wave and explain away a lot of things but most of what I'm seeing is 'we can't put Oliver and Felicity together too soon so we have to mess them up for a while.' That's one of the main things that's keeping me hanging on because I know, at their core, Olicity are better than what we've seen this season. Once they get the crap out of the way, we can return to what they used to be and we saw a glimpse of that in 316, which was such a relief after such contrived angst for so long. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by Guest

[kismet]

I have no idea which thread this should go under, but its on topic now & a relationship so I guess Ill put it here~~

 

What is the problem if they just put Oliver & Felicity together as an official couple? I don't feel like the moonlighting curse would apply to this show. The banter between O&F made the show better, but its not all the show has to offer. The show has many arcs, mythology, comiclore & action to draw upon. Its not a procedural based show that brings in mundane similar cases week after week, so the character interpersonal relationships become more in focus. Nevermind, when you actually research the moonlighting curse, there were a lot of other factors that doomed the show beyond just their title characters getting together.

 

I really can't see how it would destroy the show. Those the watch the show for romance, can get their fix with them having moments - maybe the occasional date or so. But the romance does not have to overwhelm the show, this is Arrow not a romantic drama after all. Those the watch it for the action will probably be happy just to have the romantic angsty not be one of the primary arc like it was this year. I mean I want them together, but even I found the emphasis on their angst to be too much to swallow most of the time. Once OQ is happily settled he can focus more on the missions with FS & TA there to support him. Those that watch it for comics, I realize its not comic canon but you can blame the initial casting that chose to cast 2 leads without a chemistry test & found out that they have no chemistry together. It must be frustrating for Lauriver fans, but their chemistry just doesn't speak to the masses as strongly. LL just seems to have better chemistry with every other LI that has been put in front of her. I say we find her a good LI that makes her happy. Perhaps if we have OQ closer to the GA, we can still bring in the cool comic characters to interact with. And if the keep LL/BC around, they can write a way for her to be GA professional partner, just not as his romantic partner. Those who watch it for characters - well this past episode has proven that when you remove the manufactured angst, the characters shine through. Yes there are still problems, but those can be fixed or mended. And those of you who watch it for just plot, well then u can learn to accept whatever plot is thrown at you. And perhaps if O&F were together this year, some of the dumb plotholes & manipulations could have been avoided thus making the plot better and not as unsuccessfully convoluted.

 

I honestly can't find a solid reason to keep these two apart for another whole season. The angst they had to manufacture & the character distortion they had to write just made the show almost unwatchable. I just can't live through another season of when will they. Its not even a question of will they/wont they at this point. Why not just bite the bullet and put them together. They are both fiery personalities with streaks of stubbornness so its not like their relationship is gonna be a cake walk. As people have mentioned in the above threads there are a lot of things that both Oliver & Felicity have to work on separately & together. But they are clearly attracted to each other, have a deep respect for each other & seem to make each other better when they're together. So really beyond making it an angsty drama, what is the point of keeping them apart? There is still tons of internal & external drama that you can write while having them be together. Arrow can go dark & angsty without the need of olicity angst to weight it down.

Edited March 21, 2015 by kismet

[tennisgurl]

I don't get it at all. Honestly, I don't even think having Felicity and Oliver be in a relationship would change much of anything about the show. Its not a show based on a "Will they/Wont they" relationship, there are plenty of other couples/possible couples to ship, and plot lines to move forward that have nothing to do with them being together, and it might actually create more interesting stories to have them as an official couple. 

 

I guess it was a combination of them wanting Felicity and Ray to happen (ugggggg) and because they, like many writers, suffer from the delusion that all fans want is ANGGGGST, instead of just watching characters they love form healthy, likable relationships that will make many of their fans happy. 

[Guest]

What is the problem if they just put Oliver & Felicity together as an official couple? I don't feel like the moonlighting curse would apply to this show. The banter between O&F made the show better, but its not all the show has to offer. The show has many arcs, mythology, comiclore & action to draw upon. Its not a procedural based show that brings in mundane similar cases week after week, so the character interpersonal relationships become more in focus. 

 

Sadly, as frustrating as it is, most shows thrive on a 'will-they-won't-they' romance and Olicity is pretty much the only viable contender for that on Arrow. Keeping the audience guessing when or how they'll get together or even if they will at all is what draws viewers back, time and again. That's why they drag it out for as long as possible. I'm not saying all viewers watch for the romance but seeing the hero get the girl is a pretty standard trope that the audience roots for, generally.

 

Also, there's always the worry that once the couple does get together, the dynamic becomes stale or boring and yes, the dumb Moonlighting curse always gets mentioned but IMO, that's just a crap excuse for poor writing. 

 

After what we saw on the Arrow/Flash crossover and how MARRIED Felicity and Oliver were, I have no doubt that the two of them in a romantic relationship wouldn't drastically change the dynamic of the show but it's all about whether the writers are ready to give up the clichéd drama and write for their characters again. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by Guest

[Ang]

To be fair, it'd be really hard (even harder than the mediocre results indicate, heh) to show Oliver both with Felicity and going through identity crises and whatnot on his journey to becoming Green Arrow. A stable, healthy, intimate relationship would put a damper on self-doubt and redefinition, don't you think? It's the same reason they rushed the olicity relationship at the beginning of this season; they wanted that angst and extra push for Oliver's path.

I do think with even the slightest bit of understanding and perspective the writers could easily incorporate a long term relationship into the show without diminishing the draw. It's not like Olicity fans were pulled in by soap opera dramatics to begin with. Show us a little teamwork, mutual support, a bit of flirting there, an affectionate moment there, save up fights or romance for the big moments, and you've got a nice, sexy little relationship fleshing out your action-packed superhero drama.

On another note, now that the high from the episode has gone, I'm dubious about Felicity's line "As long as you're in my life, I'm happy". I don't even know why. It's a beautiful line, but I don't know if I'm glad they chose to insert it in this particular moment in time between them. There also might be a part of me that wanted him to say it to her, instead. I don't know, haha.

I had a similar reaction! First we get a maybe slightly improved Olicity interaction at the beginning, and then an actual scene with some meaning and the old connection between the two of them, and then OMG are they actually communicating?? And THEN to have ANOTHER scene after that? He appreciates her and shows it?? She calls him handsome?!? There are smiles?!?!!? It already felt like they crammed everything we should have seen over the last three episodes into this one. The happiness line felt like too much, too soon. I assume it's so they could quickly repair the relationship so that the characters and audience experience sufficient levels of agony at whatever fresh hell they have in store for the coming episodes. Edited March 21, 2015 by Ang

[dtissagirl]

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the amped up Oliver/Felicity in this episode -- three substantial scenes with a whole lot of emotional beats -- was a result of the network asking for it. The last scene totally looked to me a like a response to a network note that said "can we have some good F/O moments? They help up promote the show and there haven't been any in a while".

[wonderwall]

The last scene totally looked to me a like a response to a network note that said "can we have some good F/O moments? They help up promote the show and there haven't been any in a while".

 

I don't think so considering most of the people watching it were surprised by the amount of O/F moments in this episode. O/F weren't promoted at all. I think this is the writer's way of showing a turning point in their relationship. It needed to happen sometime ya know?

Edited March 21, 2015 by wonderwall

[dtissagirl]

Warner Bros Latin airs Arrow here, they have a couple of ads currently on rotation that pretty much rely on Oliver/Felicity to promote the show. These aren't episode specific, they're general ads intended for new viewers. They basically say Arrow = Oliver/Felicity. This is the kind of promotion I'm thinking of.

[wonderwall]

Warner Bros Latin airs Arrow here, they have a couple of ads currently on rotation that pretty much rely on Oliver/Felicity to promote the show. These aren't episode specific, they're general ads intended for new viewers. They basically say Arrow = Oliver/Felicity. This is the kind of promotion I'm thinking of.

 

That's actually quite interesting! Did they promote Olicity for episode 16? Just curioius. Because Canada and America didn't whatsoever which is strange because Nielsen ratings matter most to the CW. 

[dtissagirl]

They don't do episode-specific ads for Arrow here, just the general ones.

[catrox14]

 

hat is the problem if they just put Oliver & Felicity together as an official couple?

 

IMO, because it's not the canon relationship in the comics which has historically been  Green Arrow/Black Canary. And it pisses me off because it's all about the Laurel Lance name.  Bleh

Edited March 21, 2015 by catrox14

[Ang]

IMO, because it's not the canon relationship in the comics which has historically been Green Arrow/Black Canary. And it pisses me off because it's all about the Laurel Lance name. Bleh

Yes, but I'm holding out hope it'll be Olicity until the last moments of the show. Kill her off three episodes before the end and leave the show implying that GA/BC eventually get together without actually making us watch it, you know?

[Danny Franks]

Yes, but I'm holding out hope it'll be Olicity until the last moments of the show. Kill her off three episodes before the end and leave the show implying that GA/BC eventually get together without actually making us watch it, you know?

 

I don't think they'll kill Felicity off, if they can avoid it. My assumption is that they have some nebulous plan to do an Oliver/Felicity romance that ends up with them eventually breaking up and going back to being friends. Then they can pair Felicity off with some nice, harmless guy who Oliver approves of, and she can start cheerleading for Oliver/Laurel to finally return that epic, timeless romance of theirs (you know, the one that involves breakups and cheating and jealousy and death. All the really romantic stuff).

 

I almost want to watch, just to see how badly it fails.

[catrox14]

Yes, but I'm holding out hope it'll be Olicity until the last moments of the show. Kill her off three episodes before the end and leave the show implying that GA/BC eventually get together without actually making us watch it, you know?

 

Oh man, I swear if they give us Olicity, only to rip away, I would rather no Olicity.  That would just be way worse.

[Genki]

Oh man, I swear if they give us Olicity, only to rip away, I would rather no Olicity.  That would just be way worse.

 

Yeah at least I could stop watching, I don't think I could cope with a HIMYM type situation.

[CabotCove]

What is the problem if they just put Oliver & Felicity together as an official couple? I don't feel like the moonlighting curse would apply to this show. 

 

I think to do that writers actually have to have confidence in their ability and the couple in question.  Articles have been  written dis-proving repeatedly the "moonlight curse", also other shows have disproved it, so its on them writers. 

 

IMO, because it's not the canon relationship in the comics which has historically been Green Arrow/Black Canary.

 

But Oliver/Laurel were not put together long term either?, seems to me they just transferred whatever they were doing from L/O to F/O.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Conell

[wonderwall]

Really? I didn't know about that. However I wasn't saying that all Olicity shippers are pro Lauryssa, just reporting that person's opinion. :)

 

Let me guess, this person was theapplefour? :p Honestly, the people who wanted Felicity to be bisexual was for the sake of having a bisexual character on their screen even though it'd purely be a title (which, imo, is ridiculous and not representation at all). There was this whole thing about it... But yeah, a lot of the people I follow (bar 1) are really against it because it's like spitting on Sara's memory. 

 

Surprisingly though, a lot of neutral people on comment sections like in the AV Club are totally for it. So, really, it has nothing to do with Olicity. 

 

With Felicity, I'd much rather the writers explore her past and let her have her own arc that doesn't have to do with sexuality or who she's dating. With Laurel, I think the writers have more leeway because we already know Laurel's history and she's already been given her BC arc... I don't care for Laurel, so they can do anything with her and I won't bat an eyelash. 

Edited March 22, 2015 by wonderwall

[Morrigan2575]

I never read the "Birds of Prey" series, but isn't it heavily implied that Dinah and Barbara were a thing in that run?

There's nothing textual to support ot but there's a hell of a lot of subtext and art work that supports Babs/Dinah OTP.

There's also Gail Simone's view that Dinah was 75% Hetero...ironically that whole topic was due to a BoP issue dealing with Talia Al Ghul and her sexual/seductive aspects leading men to ruin.

So in theory a romantic/sexual relationship between Nyssa/Laurel wouldn't violate canon. In fact the bisexual aspect of Sara's character are one reason I put in the plus column of Sara being The Black Canary (in my mind).

However, a romantic relationship between Nyssa/Laurel would piss me the fuck off. I mean what more could they take from Sara and give to Laurel? It's just massively insulting and disrespectful to the character and her fans. I'm not even talking internal to the story, I'm talking external, the writers room.

[Starfish35]

but it seems like it would be a step too far in the "am I my sister?" mess that is Laurel's issue this year.

Oh I absolutely 100% agree with that. It's the whole "the Black Canary can never be bisexual total violation of canon" hysterics I'm raising an eyebrow at.

[wonderwall]

Oh I absolutely 100% agree with that. It's the whole "the Black Canary can never be bisexual total violation of canon" hysterics I'm raising an eyebrow at.

 

Considering it's the same people who say "but comics!" when it comes to Oliver's love life? :p

Edited March 22, 2015 by wonderwall