Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[quarks]

So, to pull this thought from the Unthinkable thread: I don't think that Oliver knows that Felicity loves him. Or vice versa. It's a classic Will These Two Idiots Ever Learn, and a staple of epic romance. Which I will now discuss in what I fear will be an epically long post

 

Here's what's happened so far:

 

1. Last season, Felicity burst out with her "very platonic circumstances" comment.  The entire conversation seems to have taken Oliver by complete surprise - not just that they were having any sort of conversation at all just before trying to swing across an elevator shaft, but that she would hint, even in babbling, that she's ever imagined him holding her at all, platonic or not platonic circumstances. After all, despite their trust conversation earlier in the season, he lied to her (badly), initially refused to join him beyond helping to save Walter, and had issues with the killing. I think there was an immediate physical attraction - on both sides - but even Oliver Queen is aware that immediate physical attraction doesn't always mean much. (Unless you find yourself immediately and violently physically attracted to fine chocolate, but I digress.)  And I really don't think he thought she had any interest in him. After all, shortly after she found out his secret, she was encouraging him to date another woman.

 

2. At the beginning of this season, he heard the innuendos, but he seemed to dismiss them as "well, that's just Felicity." 

 

3. Then, in "Keep Your Enemies Closer," Isabel told him that the entire company was under the assumption he was sleeping with Felicity, and made it clear that she had assumed the same thing. I think he slept with Isabel partly to throw her off the track, and partly because this brought up feelings that he really didn't want to deal with.  But I also think that by that point he was aware that his feelings could be stronger. I don't think they were stronger, but he was in that "potential" place.

 

Thus the "I just think it's better not to be with someone I could really, really care about speech."

 

And Felicity accepts this. She doesn't ask him out for coffee. The most she argues is that he can do better than Isabel, which as things turned out, turned out to be true. So from his perspective, she's accepted that he's not doing this, and is moving on.

 

4. After this, something remarkable happens:

 

Felicity drops the innuendos around him.  (She still made that "maybe he thinks he penetrates just fine" line, but to Barry. The same innuendos that were the biggest sign of her crush.

 

5. Oliver then kills the Count, and follows this up with the "He had you, and he was going to hurt you. There was no choice to make." Obviously this was also leading towards the Slade/Oliver confrontation, but from the point of view of this relationship, Felicity again doesn't take the chance to make a move, and doesn't read this as anything more than Arrow being Arrow.

 

6. Next episodes: Barry shows up. As far as Oliver (and the audience) can tell, Felicity really likes him, even if Barry thinks otherwise.  

 

Indeed, Felicity seems to like Barry so much that she's willing to make trips every weekend to see him even though he's in a coma. If I'm Oliver, I'm taking this as a strong indication that Felicity has moved past any feelings that she had for me, which were probably just a crush anyway.

 

7. We saw this play out in Blast Radius. Most of that, I think, was about Oliver finally learning to apologize, which was nice, and offered great character growth, but there was also a bit of Oliver deciding that, eye sex or no eye sex, Felicity really wasn't interested in him, even if she gave him a great opportunity with her "Does this mean I have a chance ...long pause...come on, Oliver, jump in here...ok, never mind...at employee of the month?"  She followed that up with her bit about "Figures that I finally get a guy interested in me," with the implication that no guy ever will be interested in her. At that point, I'm pretty sure Oliver figured out exactly what he felt - and also figured that she wasn't interested, which was just as well, given that he's convinced himself this would be a terrible idea. 

 

8. This was shortly followed up by what many of us here and over at TWOP, and on Jennifer Crusie's blog, called Oliver's Character Regression.  I read that slightly differently at the time, but now, I think we are supposed to think that it happened in part because he believed that Felicity didn't love him back. 

 

Also - and I missed this until now:

 

Felicity told him about his mother. But she and Diggle weren't waiting in the Arrow Cave post what they had to know would be a confrontation to discuss this; he was alone. I don't know if he expected her to be there (I didn't) or if in show time she had gone off to be with Barry, but in retrospect, I realize that they do hang out in the Arrow Cave a lot and do discuss What Just Happened, and this time - they weren't there. Add that to Felicity's conviction that if she told Oliver the truth she would lose him, suggesting that maybe her trust isn't 100% complete - and yeah.

 

9. So, under the belief that Felicity wasn't interested anyway, he started going out with Sara. Does Felicity throw a jealous fit? No, no she does not.  I count this as a good thing but it couldn't have made Oliver think that she cared. 

 

10. I've mentioned how very oddly that relationship was blocked, compared to every other long term relationship on the show (where "long term" means "more than two episodes"): Moira/Walter, Diggle/Lyla, Thea/Roy, Laurel/Tommy and even Laurel/Oliver.  I now think this was pretty deliberate - because not only was Oliver not in love with Sara, he had feelings for someone else, though he was trying to move on.

 

11. Nonetheless, even Oliver seems to have thought that he couldn't have hidden his feelings that well, since it wouldn't take much to convince Slade about his Tuw Wuv for Felicity.  Which turned out to be true.

 

12. Then, the Clocktower moment. Does Felicity go in for a kiss before the Dramatic Battle of Doom? No, no, she does not. Does Oliver need more proof? No, no he does not.

 

13. Then the mansion moment. Does Felicity say, "I love you too?" No. No she does not.

 

14. Then the beach moment. How does Felicity describe the idea of her and Oliver together? As unthinkable. 

 

So, yeah, I think Oliver has thoroughly convinced himself that Felicity doesn't love him. 

 

On her side, of course, since meeting her, Oliver has slept with Helena, McKenna, Laurel, Isabel and Sara, has not even asked her out for coffee, called Barry to invite Felicity to dance with Barry, and finally chose to say "I love you" as part of a way to trick the bad guy. 

 

When Will These Two Idiots Ever Learn?  Tune in next season.  (Quite possibly they may get a hint around sweeps months. Or in the season finale.)

[statsgirl]

How does the "I was your girl" .... "You'll always be my girl" from Time of Death play into your theory?

 

Diggle knows.  In the island scene, as they're walking back to the plane, he says "I'll give you two a moment alone" and walks on, classic pointer to a romantic relationship. Even if he thought they should talk things over (and why, presumably it's long enough after battle night that they've had a chance to talk), Diggle could have said "I'll go ahead to check out the plane before we take off."  But I have to say, during their conversation, when Felicity was giving him every opportunity to jump in and say that he really did care for her, I think SA when the camera was on him (as opposed to the two shot) was giving it his all in the "I love this babbling sweet woman" look.  Then he said "we both sold it", implying or maybe thinking that she was faking it too.

 

Earlier, in the dungeon with Slade, Oliver told him " I was strong enough not to kill you, you helped make me a hero".  If Oliver's definition of being a hero was to save the day without killing, who is the one who gets all the speeches encouraging him not to kill?  Felicity, while Quentin, Nyssa, Sara and occasionally Diggle are all telling him sometimes you need to.

 

Although I really think we're giving the EPs too much credit. This seems to be more planning than they're willing to do.

Edited May 16, 2014 by statsgirl

[quarks]

Oooh, I forgot about that scene.

 

Anyway, it plays out that Oliver assumed that Felicity was just really high and didn't mean it. He did seem to have a brief moment of "yes" there, but it wasn't something to pursue, and, as said, she was really high.  Plus, she put things in the past tense. 

 

And a later episode seemed to suggest that she was still heading to Barry's coma bed occasionally - she met the two Flash characters there and it seemed that they had more than one interaction. 

Edited May 16, 2014 by quarks

[Carrie Ann]

Hmmm, I don't think Oliver is really convinced that Felicity doesn't have feelings for him. I think he knows there's something there, but he keeps that knowledge in his peripheral vision. He won't let himself look directly at it, for any number of reasons. He's not ready for someone like her, certainly. He probably doesn't feel like he could be with someone as good as she is. He probably thinks it would be best if she found someone else, and doesn't want to hold her back from that. That's why I think he holds back from her, most of the time. Because he doesn't feel like he can give her what she deserves, and he doesn't want to screw anything up. That doesn't mean he sees her feelings for him (or his for her) with complete clarity, because of his refusal to examine them. But I do think he knows there's something there on both sides. Last night, I think he was half-hoping she would take the leap, and half-relieved that she didn't.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[statsgirl]

I could go with either of those theories:  that Oliver really doesn't think that Felicity has feelings for him; or that he has an idea that she does but he doesn't want to go there because he can do his job better if he doesn't know, just like Quentin has to know that Oliver is the Arrow but he doesn't want to have it acknowledged because he can't do his job, or ask the Arrow to help him, if he knows who it really is.

 

It's also better storytelling and leaves the door open for both Oliver and Felicity to date (although hopefully not have a relationship with) other people next season.  The EPs have said they've planned on 5 years of flashbacks, one for each year on the island, so the show has got 3 seasons to go, way too soon to put Oliver and Felicity together yet.

 

I can see a scene next scene where Oliver reacts to Felicity's interest in someone else or maybe a bit of jealousy over what Diggle has with Lyla and the baby, and Diggle says something about maybe if you asked Felicity out she wouldn't be interested in other people and Oliver replies 'What do you mean? She's not interested in me' and Diggle walks off, shaking his head.

 

On another thought, I wonder if Guggenheim had actually intended to come out and say that Felicity was the one that Oliver loved.  On Wednesday night, there were some tweets saying that 'you promised to tell us who Oliver loved but it still could be Laurel because the Felicity scene was a show for Slade' so maybe MG had to come out and confirm it, as SA sort of did yesterday.

Edited May 16, 2014 by statsgirl

[SleepDeprived]

I think you're all pretty much on the nose regarding Oliver and Felicity's headspace when it comes to their feelings for each other. EBR (bless this lady), who always sounds like she really understands her character, has a similar take on it:

 

“I think Felicity half-knows she's in love with him, but also very much feels inadequacy in that. I think he has the reverse of it. I think he chooses to ignore what might be there, and I think she does too. I think they're both half-ignoring what those feelings might be, because the acknowledgment of them is when things will change. Whether those acknowledgments come out [next season], and when they do, there's a whole bunch that's going to change. The dynamic of the team. There will be probably a few episodes that revolve around 'Where are we now?' sort of things. Then it comes down to what's more important? Friendship or your feelings?” (sauce)

[Carrie Ann]

SA tweeted something before "Seeing Red" to the effect that the last four episodes were really like one long finale, so maybe I'm obsessed, but last night I watched all the scenes Oliver and Felicity shared to see how that part of the story played out. I'd have to watch all the Laurel/Oliver moments again to compare, which...is not going to happen. But watching the F/O moments, That Scene plays a lot more like honesty disguised as a ruse.

 

The arc has Oliver repeatedly struggling with this burden, and opening up to Felicity about the weight of it. Felicity encouraging him at every dark moment to keep fighting, but not by compromising his own soul. Felicity fighting right by his side, constantly being awesome. Light imagery. Several displays of their unspoken connection (him carrying her twice when Dig could have done it more easily; lot of arm and hand holding; hugs; Looks of Great Significance). It's sort of their arc through the whole season, exemplified by these four episodes.

 

But anyway, this is really about as low as Oliver has ever been on the show. Slade is in complete control, Moira is dead, Thea hates him, everything is chaos, and he is in complete despair for like 90% of these episodes. I think Felicity's unwavering belief in him, her commitment to their work, her pushing him to be better is what gets him through this, and I think he knows it. The last "You are not alone, and I believe in you" scene is where I think that might have really sunk in.

 

So when she told him to let Slade outthink him, I think he considered what he would do next, let those scenarios play out in his head, and then figured out how to trick Slade within those scenarios. What would he have done next? Headed for Slade alone, planning to fight to the death? He wouldn't let Felicity just walk in there with him, so he probably would have tried to find somewhere else for her to be. But she would fight him on that, and how would that conversation go? That's when I think the plan occurred to him. Now, I'm not sure I would say that Slade "took the wrong woman" was 100% accurate--I think Slade did take a woman Oliver loves. Could have been Sara in that place too, because I think Oliver also loves her. And as I said before, I don't think Oliver lets himself look at his feelings enough to be able evaluate who he loves the most.

 

But I do think the "I love you" was real. I'd love to hear Stephen talk about his choices in that scene, because Oliver maintains his control, almost all the way through saying, "So he took the wrong woman." But then his face just softens and opens up, and his facial muscles are moving which is very out of character, and he basically whispers the I love you. I'm not positive Oliver intended to say it, but I think he feels it, and maybe he's not going to be able to deny it to himself anymore.

[icandigit]

 

http://sthabtkc.tumblr.com/post/85932514890/the-journey-of-olicity

 

 

Her racing heart deflated a little when she felt something hard and cool being pressed into her hands. “Do you understand?” he asked, gazing into her eyes. Her comprehension may have been mingled with a touch of confusion, but something in her swelled at the fact that he was entrusting her with this important task. He was treating her as an equal and respecting the fact that she wanted to be in the fight with him and the rest of the team and trained assassins and what not, despite having next to none physical training in combat. He knew her well, and once again, in his way, he was telling her that he knows she wants to and can do more.

 

He knew she would understand. That was why when they were headed over to the mansion, he never felt the need to tell her the plan. A little perverse part of him needed to see her unguarded reaction to his confession and he needed her to believe it, if only for a little moment. Then he could keep these perfect seconds in his mind forever. He saw the emotions play out in her eyes, but he couldn’t bring himself to smile, knowing that he was using her as bait, that she would willing let him do so, just to save the city.

 

 

i found this post on tumblr.don't judge me. I keep your secrets.

[GirlWednesday]

Ah man! Somewhere in this arrow forum, I wrote that I was scarred by the sickening forced soulmate thing on Dawson's creek. People on TWOP are saying that Berlanti was one of the writers that supported that concept. This is troubling. ;o(

[statsgirl]

I know. Between Smallville and Dawson's Creek, it's like one's worst nightmare.

 

On the other hand, think of the WB exec who called down after EBR's first episode and said, the blonde IT girl?  Keep her around.  (Or something to that effect.)  First and foremost, TV is a business and Oliver/Felicity is what is causing the relationship buzz for the show.  If you read Maureen Ryan's reviews, it's feels like it's half the show. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/15/arrow-finale-review_n_5333304.html

 

I didn't watch Dawson's creek but didn't Dawson and Joey have more chemistry than Oliver and Laurel?  And maybe Berlanti learned on the show, that sometimes it's better to go with the flow than force the storytelling.

Edited May 17, 2014 by statsgirl

[GirlWednesday]

Joey and Dawson had chemistry I guess but it wasn't interesting. What's interesting about a story of two kids who know everything about each other. Dawson was perfect and everyone treated him as special. Pacey and Joey were interesting and hooked me and others because he didn't feel like he deserved Joey. Joey was too special and he was not good enough for her. OMG!!! Berlanti is rewriting Dawson's creek. Pacey is felicity, Laurel is Dawson and Joey is Oliver. Damn. My heart just broke a little. Lol. Damn Dawson, 15years later, Dawson is still getting on my nerves! Haha

Edited May 17, 2014 by GirlWednesday

[icandigit]

That's the line for me. I'll stop watching if the term soulmate is used regarding anyone on the show. Well, except Oliver and the salmon ladder. I was hoping Joey and Pacey set a precedent of shows not feeling like they have to shoehorn couples that don't work. Guess I was wrong. Gross, this is reminding of Dawson's manipulation of his friends all over again.

[ohjoy]

SA tweeted something before "Seeing Red" to the effect that the last four episodes were really like one long finale, so maybe I'm obsessed, but last night I watched all the scenes Oliver and Felicity shared to see how that part of the story played out. I'd have to watch all the Laurel/Oliver moments again to compare, which...is not going to happen. But watching the F/O moments, That Scene plays a lot more like honesty disguised as a ruse.

This got me thinking, and I went back and skimmed through the last three episodes to check.... Unless I missed something, the only Oliver/Laurel scenes in the last three episodes come when Laurel shows up in the Arrowcave to give Oliver a pep and then follows Team Arrow into danger after Oliver explicitly told her to stay put. She "saves" Oliver from the goon, gets stuck in the caved-in alley, follows Oliver's instruction to shoot an arrow to get herself out, and then heads back to find her dad when Team Arrow goes after the cure.

All of that happens in the last half of the 1st episode and the first half of the 2nd. Laurel and Oliver do not directly interact AT ALL after Laurel walks away from Team Arrow and runs into the Canary.

If I really wanted to (and I closed one eye and squinted really hard), I could make the summation that all of the Olicity buildup in the final episodes was done for the sole purpose of making the fakeout scene believable (I wouldn't put it past the producers to think that was a good idea), but even then, the fact remains while Oliver and Felicity are doing all of this buildup toward saving the day (and possibly beginning to acknowledge or even recognize their feelings for each other), while Oliver and Laurel... don't see or speak to each other at all (unless you count Oliver yelling at Sara to "get them out of here!" after Felicity stabs Slade with the syringe and Sara frees Laurel from the goon).

[Carrie Ann]

Laurel and Oliver get a few moments in those episodes, and if I were a Laurel/Oliver shipper, I wouldn't be totally unhappy with the end of the season, because I do think the writers tried to put that relationship back on the board. But if you put it up against the Felicity/Oliver arc, it doesn't compare favorably.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[stormborn]

 

Hmmm, I don't think Oliver is really convinced that Felicity doesn't have feelings for him. I think he knows there's something there, but he keeps that knowledge in his peripheral vision. He won't let himself look directly at it, for any number of reasons. He's not ready for someone like her, certainly. He probably doesn't feel like he could be with someone as good as she is. He probably thinks it would be best if she found someone else, and doesn't want to hold her back from that. That's why I think he holds back from her, most of the time. Because he doesn't feel like he can give her what she deserves, and he doesn't want to screw anything up. That doesn't mean he sees her feelings for him (or his for her) with complete clarity, because of his refusal to examine them. But I do think he knows there's something there on both sides. Last night, I think he was half-hoping she would take the leap, and half-relieved that she didn't.

 

I completely agree with this post!

 

Hi, first time poster here :) And yes I don't think that Oliver is aware of the depth of Felicity's feelings for him or rather he remains willfully ignorant to the fact that she is in love with him. And I think the fact that he's never had a successful relationship with a woman plays a lot into this as well. People talk a lot about Felicity's insecurities where Oliver is concerned (i.e. he only seems to date/sleep with glamorous women and/or women who are capable of defending themselves physically) but conversely I don't think there's enough attention paid to Oliver's insecurities where Felicity is concerned and what a possible relationship with her might mean for him. 

 

First off, Felicity is probably Oliver's first and only strictly platonic female friend. And I think being able to maintain an emotionally healthy relationship with a woman, especially with a woman like Felicity; one who he respects and values so much as a partner and friend, means a lot to him. I can see why he wouldn't want to mess that up with a romance when each and every romance he's ever had has been fraught with lies, deception, infidelity, death and ultimately loss. So, a romance with Felicity, in Oliver's jaded mind; is bound to end because of his inability to sustain a healthy relationship with a woman. And that is only one of many insecurities that Oliver might have with regards to pursuing a relationship with Felicity. Another is his battle with self loathing which we see pop up many times throughout the series. I believe that Oliver, while on the mend, is still a very much broken man and sees himself as such. In his mind, he's the worst possible candidate for a boyfriend for Felicity because he won't be able to give her what she needs emotionally and perhaps he thinks she'll be better off with someone who can. Because at the end of the day I do think that Oliver wants Felicity to be happy above all else. So he can be there for her as a friend sure and he is more than capable of physically protecting her person but I believe that Oliver simply doesn't trust himself with Felicity's heart. Its far too precious a gift he doesn't believe himself worthy of at this time or ever.

 

While on the other hand, I strongly believe that Felicity unknowingly has his heart and has had it for quite some time. I mean, characters on the show have often talked about the way Felicity looks at Oliver but have they seen the way he looks at her?? The boy is so sprung he could be a slinky. 

 

So part of the beauty of their journey is watching him slowly come to realize that he is worthy of Felicity's love and devotion and worthy of that special kind of happiness that comes with being with the right person. 

Edited May 17, 2014 by stormborn

[Danny Franks]

Hi, first time poster here :) And yes I don't think that Oliver is aware of the depth of Felicity's feelings for him or rather he remains willfully ignorant to the fact that she is in love with him. And I think the fact that he's never had a successful relationship with a woman plays a lot into this as well. People talk a lot about Felicity's insecurities where Oliver is concerned (i.e. he only seems to date/sleep with glamorous women and/or women who are capable of defending themselves physically) but conversely I don't think there's enough attention paid to Oliver's insecurities where Felicity is concerned and what a possible relationship with her might mean for him.

 

 

Welcome to this little corner of the internet.

 

I guess it all depends on how you define the word, but I'm hesitant to say that either Oliver or Felicity are actually in love with one another, at this point in time. Or at least they're unaware that their feelings run that deep. I think they're both too emotionally guarded around one another to have been able to acknowledge what's between them. Oliver, because he is generally guarded and closed off, and Felicity because I think she's long since decided she has no shot with Oliver Queen, and so would want to protect her heart from him.

 

Regarding Oliver's insecurities, I still think that was the main thrust behind his argument in 2x07, about not being with someone he really cares about. I don't think it was about putting that person in danger, or exposing them to his enemies, I think it was about exposing that person to the problems of being in a relationship with Oliver Queen, who is messed up and difficult, even without taking his nightlife into account. I think he's convinced he'd be a crappy boyfriend, like he was in the past, and that it would only be exacerbated by him also being the Arrow, and having to run off at a moment's notice, to catch some criminals.

 

It's why I think he could allow himself to have a relationship with Sara. She's as emotionally screwed up as he is, and so there was less chance of her expectations of him to grow too much. She could understand his mindset better than most people, and could understand if he was emotionally and physically unavailable at times. But if he did find someone he "could really care about", I don't think he'd want to subject them to all of that. Even worse if the woman is Felicity, because he does seem to look at her as if she's some source of heavenly light, at times. I don't think he has her on a pedestal, but he definitely sees her as all that's good, and wants her to stay that way.

 

Normally I get annoyed with the 'boy earns girl' trope, because it feels too one sided to have some Peter Pan complex jackass have to prove himself over and over, while the stern, mature woman tolerates him and slowly falls for his goofy charms. On Arrow, they do have the dynamic that Oliver absolutely needs to fix himself before he's worthy of being in a relationship with someone like Felicity. But they also have Felicity's own journey, which feels fresh and interesting. She's not the uptight stereotype, slowly learning how to live life and be fun. She was fun and lively already. But we've seen her grow into being more than that "IT Girl", we've seen her become more proactive and assertive and confident in her dealings with everyone, including Oliver himself. Rather than changing emotionally to accommodate him, she's grown to complement him, being able to understand him and offer support without changing who she is.

 

I see it as them earning each other, but in different ways. But I don't think they're at the stage yet where either of them think that it's something that can happen, and maybe they're not even sure they want it to happen, because of the problems that could ensue. They both still have those insecurities, but I think Felicity is far closer to overcoming hers than Oliver is, and I think it's easier for her to cut through the hesitance. I think her fears are more about doubting he could want her, while Oliver's are about feeling he can't have her.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Danny Franks

[statsgirl]

Is it okay to bring the cast interviews into the conversation?  It may not end up canon, but at least we know where they are playing from right now.

 

 

So come on, let’s be honest: Oliver can’t be that dumb, right? He has to know Felicity really loves him by now… Right?

“Oliver knows,” Amell said. “I don’t think he’s playing. He was put in a position where he had to do the unthinkable. He had to put her in jeopardy. Whether or not he’s telling the truth about her, that will be resolved pretty soon on the show.”

Emily Bett Rickards agreed, saying, “No, he knows. I think he knows. Everybody knows. Moira knew, Sara knew, people knew. She’s not ashamed people know, but her beauty and strength come from, ‘I want you to be happy.’ She realizes he’s not the only man on the planet.

“But there’s such a strong love there, and they’ve been in a lot of life or death situations together, and being able to call each other out on each other’s s–t… Not everybody does that for you. When he says, ‘I love you,’ to her, I think it came from a really honest place. That’s his question now, that’s his battle.”

 

http://www.mtv.com/news/1825705/arrow-season-finale-cast-spoilers/

 

I like that she says "she realizes that he's not the only man on the planet."  I think that sets up the possibility that she could look around at other men in a healthy way as opposed to a 'the EPs want to screw us over' way.

 

I was thinking about quarks theory in terms of Oliver and Sara's break-up, specifically supposing that Oliver knew that he had feelings for Felicity in Blast Radius.  He suggested to Sara that they look for an apartment together because both of them were out of their homes, at which point Sara asked "Are you asking me to move in with you?" and Oliver froze.  Having a FWB and sharing an apartment is one thing, but asking a person to move in with you implies something a whole lot more in terms of their relationship. I had thought Oliver was just commitment-phobic but if he knew at the time that he had feelings for Felicity, it wouldn't be fair to Sara to live with her under those terms. Maybe Sara figured it out by the end of the episode, which is why she broke up with him with the heavy-handed remark about him needing someone who will see the light in him.  (Something Felicity does every time she encourages him to find a way other than killing.  "You can be more", the John Crichton to Oliver's Aeryn Sun.)

 

What would have been different if Oliver had gone to Isabel not Sara at the end of Heir to the Demon, implying that Oliver's relationship with Isabel had been more than a one night stand?  (I always suspected that Summer Glau's availability affected the Isabel storyline.)  It would have given more substance to Felicity's comment that he could do better and made Isabel's betrayal of him at the end of the season even stronger. But overall, I'm glad she wasn't available and he went to Sara instead because it made for a better story.

 

As for Laurel, she didn't interact with Oliver at all after leaving him to go to the police station to her father, not even a brief scene after she's freed from Slade where he apologizes for putting her in that position to justify the idea that Oliver can't get close to anyone he cares about because it puts her in danger.  If there ever was a time to make that point, it was after Laurel had been kidnapped by Slade because he thought she was the one Oliver loved. But nothing, nada.  They may bring on the Laurel tease again next season to keep Oliver and Felicity apart but even setting chemistry or lack of it aside, the writing is all against Laurel.

The boy is so sprung he could be a slinky.

A gorgeous visual. Can I steal the line?

[stormborn]

 

It's why I think he could allow himself to have a relationship with Sara. She's as emotionally screwed up as he is, and so there was less chance of her expectations of him to grow too much. She could understand his mindset better than most people, and could understand if he was emotionally and physically unavailable at times. But if he did find someone he "could really care about", I don't think he'd want to subject them to all of that. Even worse if the woman is Felicity, because he does seem to look at her as if she's some source of heavenly light, at times. I don't think he has her on a pedestal, but he definitely sees her as all that's good, and wants her to stay that way.

 

Yes exactly this. I never viewed the Oliver/Sarah relationship as anything other than two very world weary individuals who sought comfort in the only other person who knew exactly what the other has been through. So you're right, his relationship with Sarah didn't demand as much of him emotionally than a relationship with Felicity might. 

 

Also, you brought up a very interesting point here about the way in which Oliver sees Felicity, as something untainted and pure, which is something I didn't think of before. Maybe Oliver has a bit of a Madonna/Whore complex where Felicity is concerned as well, which also prevents him from wanting to pursue a relationship with her. 

 

I don't know there are a lot of factors to consider but delving into Oliver's psyche is fascinating to me when it comes to Felicity and his feelings for her. 

Edited May 17, 2014 by stormborn

[KirkB]

I was looking through some Sara/Nyssa stuff on Tumblr and came across this, thought it would be appropriate here.

 

The first character I first fell in love with: Felicity
The character I never expected to love as much as I do now: Thea
The character everyone else loves that I don’t: Roy
The character I love that everyone else hates: Not sure there is one
The character I used to love but don’t any longer: Drawing a blank here too.
The character I would totally smooch: Felicity
The character I’d want to be like: Diggle or Quentin
The character I’d slap: Laurel
A pairing that I love: Sara and Nyssa
A pairing that I despise: Oliver and Laurel

[apinknightmare]

 

If I really wanted to (and I closed one eye and squinted really hard), I could make the summation that all of the Olicity buildup in the final episodes was done for the sole purpose of making the fakeout scene believable (I wouldn't put it past the producers to think that was a good idea)

 

I actually had the same thought, and I would absolutely hate if that were the case. I'm more anti Oliver/Laurel than I'm pro Oliver/anyone else, but that would thoroughly disappoint me, if the show decided to fake all that just to make what amounted to a less-than ten-minute ruse on the show believable.

 

I don't really think that's the case, but I don't trust the people in charge. At all.

[Sakura12]

The first character I first fell in love with: Felicity
The character I never expected to love as much as I do now: Quentin
The character everyone else loves that I don’t: Roy
The character I love that everyone else hates: Helena I guess, I liked her in the BOP ep. 
The character I used to love but don’t any longer: Don't know
The character I would totally smooch: Slade. lol
The character I’d want to be like: Sara
The character I’d slap: Laurel
A pairing that I love: Sara/Oliver/Sally
A pairing that I despise: Oliver/Laurel

Edited May 18, 2014 by Sakura12

[icandigit]

The first character I first fell in love with: Oliver,he pretty much had me at "mom"
The character I never expected to love as much as I do now: Nyssa
The character everyone else loves that I don’t: Malcolm Merlyn
The character I love that everyone else hates: Roy
The character I used to love but don’t any longer: Slade
The character I would totally smooch: Slade
The character I’d want to be like: Shado sans being with Oliver cause yuck
The character I’d slap: Waller
A pairing that I love: Oliver and Thea (platonic no incest).
A pairing that I despise: Laurel and Sara. Even when she tries Laurel does not come off  big sisterly or sisterly at all.

Edited May 18, 2014 by icandigit

[GirlWednesday]

The first character I first fell in love with: Felicity. Because Oliver was a cray-cray (though those ABS were very nice).

The character I never expected to love as much as I do now: Sarah. When Sarah got introduced, I saw it as a threat to importance of felicity. But I'm happy with the balance of relationships the writers have tried to maintain. Though season 2.5 needed more team arrow and less LL. Nothing against Sarah. I heart her now.

The character everyone else loves that I don’t: Shado. She was nice but not fleshed out enough for me. Take her, leave her, meh.

The character I love that everyone else hates: sally.. Just kidding.

The character I used to love but don’t any longer: Slade. He became a little cartoonish for me in the end. He could have been a great anti-hero like spike. Oh the tragedy of it all.

The character I would totally smooch: Oliver because hello ABS

The character I’d want to be like: Diggle .. He is a super sensei and not only does he get his man, he gets his girl too.

The character I’d slap: Laurel

A pairing that I love: Oliver/Diggle/Felicity. I'd watch anything with any combo of these three.

A pairing that I despise: Laurel and pretty much anyone.

[statsgirl]

The first character I first fell in love with: Felicity.  Until she came on, I thought the show was kind of boring.

 

The character I never expected to love as much as I do now: Oliver. Not impressed with him at all but as the serious went on,  he became more complex emotionally and 'the baby died' scene with Moira and all the stuff in the last couple of episodes is just wonderful acting on SA's part.

 

The character everyone else loves that I don’t: Shado.  I didn't get to know her enough beyond as a trope and ugh to sleeping with Oliver.

 

The character I love that everyone else hates:  Moira. She's so Lady Macbeth but things get away from her too. 

 

The character I used to love but don’t any longer: No one.  I got a bit testy when Diggle and Felicity were reduced to one liners during the big Sara/Lance sisters arc but I'm back to loving Sara as long as she stops giving Laurel ideas above her abilities.

 

The character I would totally smooch: Quentin, because Oliver is busy with you all.  I'm a sucker for anyone who loves like that and makes lasagna too.

 

The character I’d want to be like: Diggle. He's just so grounded (at the moment).  And funnny

 

The character I’d slap: Waller

 

A pairing that I love: Nyssa/Laurel. Because Nyssa had absolutely no time for Laurel at all.

 

A pairing that I despise: Laurel and Oliver.  Her "I know you better than anyone else does" is pure gaslighting.

 

Thanks, KirkB!

Edited May 18, 2014 by statsgirl

[icandigit]

As much as I would prefer to never have Laurel in a scene with Oliver ever. I am curious as to how things will play out now that she knows. In the arrow cave Oliver treated her like she wasn't invited in the clubhouse to play with him and his friends. I can't see him wanting her near it cause she brings nothing to the table. I hope they set up some boundaries. I still don't understand how anyone can have anti chemistry with team arrow?

[GirlWednesday]

Oh we should have another category. Pairing I would love to see: Felicity and Nyssa!!!

[slayer2]

Are Nyssa and Sara a thing? I would watch Sara with anybody.

[Password]

As much as I would prefer to never have Laurel in a scene with Oliver ever. I am curious as to how things will play out now that she knows. In the arrow cave Oliver treated her like she wasn't invited in the clubhouse to play with him and his friends. I can't see him wanting her near it cause she brings nothing to the table. I hope they set up some boundaries. I still don't understand how anyone can have anti chemistry with team arrow?

 

I'm also curious to see how Laurel knowing will pan out. We already saw that massively epic fail of a "I know you in your bones" speech which was preceeded by the whole Oliver baby mama thing. But I always thought Lana on Smallville was at a disadvantage because she was not in on Clark's secret, even though I really couldn't stand her character. The same for Laurel, now that she knows, will she be all "I always knew you had it in you", in spite of blatantly hating on the Hood for ages. Or wil the story change because Oliver can breathe around Laurel now.

[KirkB]

Lana, at least, served a purpose on Smallville. I always thought Welling and Kreuk had chemistry, she was his first love, and she had a personal connection to the destruction of Clark's arrival. Love her or hate her she had an impact on stories. Since Clark and Bizarro and Lex were all after her you couldn't take her out of episodes without dramatically changing the episodes. Laurel rarely seems to do anything but fill space, and barely at that.

[slayer2]

I don't know, maybe their chemistry will change as the rewrite Laurel, it's hard to have chemistry with a Damsel in Distress. Everyone else Ollie has had chem with has been pretty self-sufficient. Maybe if the writers actually write Laurel like a more upbeat, strong, independent (like her character should have had all along) than a fatalistic, heartbroken DiD then SA and KC's chemistry will change.

KC thrives on playing strong characters, as Ella Simms she had chemistry with EVERYONE! Guy, girl, Amanda Woodward whomever, she was lighting it up. She even had chem with the most boring character on the show and that was no small feat. I just think they need to write her as a superhero, whether it be Black Canary or Manhunter I don't care but I think that's where the chemistry falters. The new Oliver Queen doesn't seem the type to go for DiDs and that throws their whole vibe off from the word go.

[Password]

That's a good point. Oliver really has been surrounded by physical and emotionally strong characters from Moira to Felicity to Sara. When Oliver and Laurel first met she was VERY bitter and understandably so. It's almost as if she regresses into a emotional mess around him, just like 7 years previously. It's very off putting to see such blatant weakness when most if not all of the female characters are strong. So perhaps this really is a new dawn for Laurel. Huh. It's like i just psyched myself up for Laurel.

[slayer2]

Haha! Well I sure hope it is, you're right that between Moira, Sara, Felicity and as we'll soon no doubt see, Thea, that's a lot of strength. I hope it is a new dawn for Laurel, I think if KC got her way, Laurel would stop being kidnapped and start fending for herself and that would bode very well for her relationship with Ollie. In the last episode her being kidnapped was almost like "Laurel's a hostage? Must be Wednesday." So I hope they move away from that and I'm interested to see where their ship goes if they do.

Edited May 19, 2014 by slayer2

[Password]

I know the EPs said they closed season 1 and 2 with the finale. Perhaps season 3 is where we get to enjoy Laurel. Although at this point as soon as she enters the screen I know people start rolling their eyes. It's just reached that level of unpleasantness. But we shall see how new Laurel interacts. Whoopee. Once again, a new side to Laurel Lance we haven't seen.

[catrox14]

If that new side of Laurel sidelines Felicity that is going to be a huge problem for the show.

[slayer2]

If that new side of Laurel sidelines Felicity that is going to be a huge problem for the show.

I think those concerns are unfounded, IMO they did a pretty good job of establishing Olicity as a very distinct relationship in the finale. OliRel (?) didn't interact at all in the finale which IMO is a shame b/c they should have some sort of relationship. I just don't see Laurel as some big threat to Olicity at this point at all.

Edited May 19, 2014 by slayer2

[Password]

I would agree that Olicity is very unlike every relationship on the show. It's special to the show and to Oliver. It's weird, I've had so many different thoughts on the whole fake out thing that I've come to 2 conclusions. If Felicity knew, she lost her composure for a second after Oliver said ILY. If she didn't know, I'm annoyed at Oliver for making her bait. But I understand why it had to happen. Not to mention his frustrating poker face smile at the beach scene. He didn't deny anything, therefore that door is not closed.

 

If they allow Laurel to undermine the sort of new ground Olicity has reached I'll just be exasperated with the show. I have no faith in the writers concerning romance. I'll just have to see.

[catrox14]

I'm not talking about the romantic side. I'm talking about within the dynamic of Team Arrow.  If Laurel becomes the BC she'll be in the lair.  Laurel is pretty much rude to Felicity. She clearly doesn't respect her like Sara did. So I can't imagine that if Laurel takes on that persona that she won't be even more rude to Felicity because she'll think she can boss her around.  We saw that in the 3 minutes that she showed up in the lair in City of Blood.  That's what I'm talking about.  That will be a much bigger problem than Olicity/Lauriver.

[slayer2]

Oh I'm not going on faith, I'm just playing the odds. Olicity has had far more screentime than OliRel and it has climaxed in the finale scenes. They've had an arc filled with peaks and valleys so I'm hardly concerned. OliRel haven't had many scenes together and when they do it's always about something other than their relationship eg Sara, saving the city etc. That's why I'm hard pressed to understand concerns, I see no evidence of this, this season. OliRel have been a non-entity.

Mind you, I'm a recovering soap-addict so I nothing would please me more relationship-wise than some Felicity/Oliver/Laurel soapy angst where the two women bring a totally different side of Oliver to the table. Someone mentioned Oliver/Laurel in an antagonistic snarks alot situation. I'm all for that. OliRel hatesex? I am so down. Ifhis relationship with Laurel played into this dark side of his character while Felicity played into his light side, that's a story I'd want to see. I've always been a fan of the duality of love and it's totally possible to love two people at once for two completely different reasons,one that's healthy and one not so healthy and both are very compelling to watch IMO.

Edited May 19, 2014 by slayer2

[Password]

I think I'm hoping she has nothing to do with the lair. It's not like the new lair will be a hang out spot, and thank goodness it has been cleaned up somewhat. I wonder what Roy will do now.

 

But anyway yes Laurel has for some reason never particularly taken to Felicity. Some have said it's because she sees her as a threat. I think she's just plain rude to be honest. Dismissive of her even. Oh my word, forbid it please, that Laurel somehow starts calling shots in team Arrow. I would die.

[catrox14]

Oh gods. Spare me any more soapy moments in this show.  They've done a good job with balancing that so far.

 

I don't want an Oliver/Felicity/Laurel triangle eating the show.  Nope.  Do Not Want.  I can watch a million other shows for that. 

 

I think I'm hoping she has nothing to do with the lair. It's not like the new lair will be a hang out spot, and thank goodness it has been cleaned up somewhat. I wonder what Roy will do now.

 

If they continue with the idea that BC works with Ollie like Sara did, I don't see how she doesn't become part of Team Arrow. 

Edited May 19, 2014 by catrox14

[Password]

Hmm I don't like the light and dark love thing. I think that's already in play at the moment, or it was because Oliver's decision making diminished when it came to Laurel. Laurel in the arrow cave would create interesting tension with Diggle too because he is NOT her biggest fan.

[catrox14]

Laurel in the Lair would be the worst possible idea.  Maybe Laurel will become the BC and she'll just get spun off into her own show and we won't have to worry about her defacing Arrow anymore. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm wondering how the writers will go about integrating Laurel into Team Arrow. Diggle doesn't seem to like her very much, and Felicity really hasn't interacted with her much. Are we going to get one of these stupid scenarios where Laurel saves Diggle's life, so he finally softens his attitude towards her? I think that it would be much more fun if he outright dislikes her, actually. 

KC seems like the type of actress whose real-life feelings seem to seep into her "acting" (see her gleeful smile while putting on Sara's jacket in the finale). I can imagine that if she has any ill feelings towards EBR for taking her "rightful" spot as Oliver's love interest, we might see that play out on our screen.

Personally, if the EPs are insistent on including Laurel in Team Arrow, I'm hoping this plays out like the Roy situation. Roy joins Team Arrow and then basically disappears and ends up in a coma!  While the EPs probably think that they are solving their Laurel problem by including her in the action, I think they are risking ruining what I consider the best part of this show, Team Arrow.


 

[stormborn]

I agree that the Arrow lair should only primarily consist of Oliver, Digg and Felicity. Proven allies such as Sarah and Roy (who I don't particularly care for but have made my peace with) can come and go but Team Arrow is the heart of the show and I don't need to see any more people in the lair than necessary. The old adage of "too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the broth" more than applies here. So yeah, keep Team Arrow as exclusive as humanly possible. 

[slayer2]

I think Laurel is going to be romantically entangled with Oliver again, it's just a given. Probably not next season though but I'm confidant it'll happen, it is what it is and I'm fine with it. Chemistry is the problem so I'm just shooting out scenarios to resolve that problem. They're not going to drop KC from the show or recast (not that I want them to) so it's just a question of how to make LauRiver more palatable IMO.

I don't want to watch a show without soapy goodness because then they'd be no romance or sexual encounters. No thanks. So I say, if she has a supposed attitude already then give her more of one. Make her badass and cause some real friction, KC can play badass awesomely, Ruby is proof of that. Let LauRiver fuck with each other. The EPs are married to the idea of Laurel/BC, that's not going to change as far as I can see so this is one way I can see it working successfully.

The friction between Diggle and her is interesting as you said. I'd like to see that play out.

Edited May 19, 2014 by slayer2

[icandigit]

 

I think Laurel is going to be romantically entangled with Oliver again, it's just a given.

I'm pretty sure of that. They will eventually have to let that play out somewhat. i don't really care about that, I just hope whatever crime fighting she does not heavily involve team arrow. I still would prefer they play up the DA thing with her. That's a legitimate comic verse type role.

[catrox14]

 

Make her badass and cause some real friction, KC can play badass awesomely, Ruby is proof of that

 

 

I thought she played Ruby's snarky, sarcastic, ambiguous motives side pretty well, but I didn't think she sold any of her action scenes at all.  She can't throw a fake punch believably IMO, so I'm not really seeing how she's going to handle the action like Caity Lotz can. 

 

Of course, they'll have a stunt double but as we've seen with Caity and Stephen and Manu being able to do most of the stunts and fight choreography makes a huge difference as to the quality of the stunt scenes because they don't have to edit as much which has given us some of the most amazing sequences on TV these days. 

Edited May 19, 2014 by catrox14

[slayer2]

I thought she played Ruby's snarky, sarcastic, ambiguous motives side pretty well, but I didn't think she sold any of her action scenes at all. She can't throw a fake punch believably IMO, so I'm not really seeing how she's going to handle the action like Caity Lotz can.

I'm not too concerned about that. I'm just thinking about things from a relationship standpoint, how her and Oliver will interact. I really think the nemesis route would work well. Maybe Oliver could refuse to let her help the group and that leads her to fight her own crusade and leads them to come to a head on a case by case basis. She could try to poach Roy and maybe Sin or something or hell even Thea. I'd be sick if she poached Thea.

Edited May 19, 2014 by slayer2

[catrox14]

I'd be fine with Laurel being a nemesis. I literally don't care what role they put her in as long as it takes her out of being Ollie's love interest or Black Canary.  I don't mind relationships in the show but IMO having Laurel and Ollie get together again is just stupid. She would only do it because she is in love with The Arrow not Oliver IMO.  And it's kind of gross to me that the show is giving us the "I'm looking at Ollie through different eyes now that I know he's the Arrow".  Green Arrow-digger much there Laurel? 

 

And IMO Oliver would be stupid to get back with her because he doesn't need to be with anyone for like a whole season outside of some one-night stands. 

[slayer2]

Yeah but you're fighting a losing battle. She's the romantic lead, it is what it is and it's not going to change, the only thing that's up in the air is how and when IMO.