Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[SmallScreenDiva]

I've seen a few GIFs on Tumblr that make me think William has been Smoaked!

Or maybe it's Jack who looks like he's harboring a tiny, adorable crush on Emily. 

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

I've seen a few GIFs on Tumblr that make me think William has been Smoaked!

Or maybe it's Jack who looks like he's harboring a tiny, adorable crush on Emily. 

Lol. He's what, like, 14/15 and works closely with EBR, who is older, hot, charming, and nice to him? That kid totally has a crush on her. 

[EmilyBettFan]

I just love the way Emily plays Felicity. She uses her whole body while acting.

[SmallScreenDiva]

14 hours ago, EmilyBettFan said:

I just love the way Emily plays Felicity. She uses her whole body while acting.

She really does. And I love that she also stays present in scenes even though she's not the focus. She doesn't distract but if you happen to look her way you can see she's reacting to what's going on as opposed to looking like she's waiting for the moment she needs to deliver a line. This is how it should be but it's weird how many times you see actors in the background just zone out. One of the scenes that comes to mind is from Season 3, "Broken Arrow." Ray was telling Oliver — and Felicity and Diggle — how he got photos from the bank robbery(?), he plays squash with the bank manager or something. Oliver is thisclose to rolling his eyes. Their interaction is the main focus of the scene but in the background you can see Felicity give a small smile and shrug at Diggle, as if to say "yeah, my boyfriend likes to humblebrag, what can you do?" It's a very small thing but just adds an extra layer to the scene, gives us a little insight into what Felicity thinks of Ray and gives us a Delicity moment without it being a MOMENT. I'm sure there are other examples.

Edited January 29, 2018 by SmallScreenDiva

[statsgirl]

It's things like that, acting like Felicity is a real person rather than an actor waiting to say her lines, that makes the scene better.

On 1/28/2018 at 1:45 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Part of what made it not so much of a win was Willaim basically saying, hey, I can now handle if dad dies as the Green Arrow because I still have you.  Which, like Felicity said, touching but awful. 

Awful, and yet good for William because he knows he won't be abandoned and heaven knows what would happen to him.

Oliver is his biological father but he barely knows him and as Oliver said, there have been parenting problems between them.  William seems to have bonded to Felicity better (see asking her to check his homework) and her not being his parent probably helped.  William was so worried with Oliver being the Green Arrow because what if Oliver died like Samantha did, what would happen to him then?  So the combination of understanding why what Oliver does is important, how good he is at it and having Felicity in his life no matter what happens to Oliver, sealed the deal for William even before the family meeting. Although it was probably a good thing that Oliver had that meeting too.

[Midnight Lullaby]

My feeling is that to avoid drama they aren’t exploring William’s feelings in a realistic way. He lost the only parent he has ever known and he seems fine, doesn’t talk about his mom and now that he has bonded with Oliver and Felicity he talks about the possibility of losing Oliver in a very chill way. On one hand I’m fine with it because I’m not interested in drama about a character I’m indifferent to but also I find it pointless to have him on the show and act in a way that feels fake to me. That of course from my POV..I can’t connect with him because I watch the scene and find the way they are writing him suiting their needs for the plot not the needs of the character. If that makes sense, lol

[Hiveminder]

10 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

My feeling is that to avoid drama they aren’t exploring William’s feelings in a realistic way. He lost the only parent he has ever known and he seems fine, doesn’t talk about his mom and now that he has bonded with Oliver and Felicity he talks about the possibility of losing Oliver in a very chill way. On one hand I’m fine with it because I’m not interested in drama about a character I’m indifferent to but also I find it pointless to have him on the show and act in a way that feels fake to me. That of course from my POV..I can’t connect with him because I watch the scene and find the way they are writing him suiting their needs for the plot not the needs of the character. If that makes sense, lol

I think that William is just there to show Oliver’s character growth. They have no intention of exploring his emotions and reactions in an organic manner because it’s about Oliver, not William. Honestly, I’m fine with that. I’m not here for tween drama. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

Yeah but I can see Oliver’s growth in the way he relates to the newbies and when he was there for Diggle and Felicity last year so even if I find some of his scenes cute mostly he drags Olicity down for me. When I feel his reaction is fake and because of the plot it ruins the whole scene for me. I don’t get a genuine emotion out of that scene and it bugs me because he is in quite a few scenes with Oliver and Felicity and I think they could potentially be really good. 

[way2interested]

I feel most of that is an acting issue though tbh.

[tangerine95]

I do think the way William is acting is kinda unrealistic for a kid in that situation but I'm glad they're not really trying to explore the storyline in a realistic way because arrow could never handle and neither could the actor they cast.So better to use him to set up development for Felicity and Oliver and to set up scenes like Felicity's monologue.Last episode he managed not to annoy me which was very surprising since I roll my eyes at every family scene with him and Oliver tbh.I do still hope this William storyline is just for this season and they send him away because while it's been fine so far,it's not something I want to watch until the show ends.

[kes0704]

I was pretty much meh about William because up to this point his purpose has been plot device not character.  He existed to throw a wrench into Oliver and Felicity’s relationship or to be a target of the villain of the show. 

16 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

Last episode he managed not to annoy me which was very surprising since I roll my eyes at every family scene with him and Oliver tbh.I do still hope this William storyline is just for this season and they send him away because while it's been fine so far,it's not something I want to watch until the show ends.

But, this is where I am with him now, he didn’t annoy me this week.  Oliver and Felicity co-parenting created some really nice scenes with William, which I never thought I’d say.  I chalk it up to the power of Olicity. But, that being said, I don’t know that I particularly want him there until the show ends either.  

Unless they have a time jump and age him up what are they going to do with him? They haven’t been able to think of new stories to play for Quentin and Thea, and they’re adults, so I don’t hold out much hope of what they can write for a child. 

Edited January 31, 2018 by kes0704
Spelling

[calliope1975]

2 hours ago, kes0704 said:

They haven’t been able to think of new stories to play for Quentin and Thea, and their adults, so I don’t hold out much hope of what they can write for a child. 

This is my thought as well. I don't want any more William in danger or kidnapped plots. He can be like Raisa, I suppose, and never seen or heard. The other option is to make him the new Speedy, and while that child has improved ever so slightly, he's not strong enough of an actor to carry that plot. I would be fine with boarding school or an extended math camp or visiting his grandparents. Forever. 

[bijoux]

I actually don’t want him to be shipped off anymore, but this would work perfectly for me:

5 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

This is my thought as well. I don't want any more William in danger or kidnapped plots. He can be like Raisa, I suppose, and never seen or heard. The other option is to make him the new Speedy, and while that child has improved ever so slightly, he's not strong enough of an actor to carry that plot. I would be fine with boarding school or an extended math camp or visiting his grandparents. Forever. 

[Hiveminder]

2 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

This is my thought as well. I don't want any more William in danger or kidnapped plots. He can be like Raisa, I suppose, and never seen or heard. The other option is to make him the new Speedy, and while that child has improved ever so slightly, he's not strong enough of an actor to carry that plot. I would be fine with boarding school or an extended math camp or visiting his grandparents. Forever. 

I really don’t think this show is ever going to do a child sidekick storyline. 

I don’t mind having William on the show as longer as he doesn’t start taking over the show, and I don’t think he will. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

I wasn't sure where to put this but it's a scene from the Arrow book by MG and another dude. Apparently, there are lots of this kind of loaded scenes but I don't know that I'd want to buy the book just for them. I mean, we know nothing really happens because they were still split up when the season started

[BkWurm1]

8 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

I do think the way William is acting is kinda unrealistic for a kid in that situation but I'm glad they're not really trying to explore the storyline in a realistic way because arrow could never handle and neither could the actor they cast.So better to use him to set up development for Felicity and Oliver and to set up scenes like Felicity's monologue.Last episode he managed not to annoy me which was very surprising since I roll my eyes at every family scene with him and Oliver tbh.I do still hope this William storyline is just for this season and they send him away because while it's been fine so far,it's not something I want to watch until the show ends.

I think it is convenient that William isn't causing more issues by now being pretty well adjusted to both what happened to his mom and now rolling with what his dad does, but I don't think his behavior is out of the realm of possibilities of how he COULD act.  His mom dies and yeah, he was upset and wasn't particularly warm and fuzzy with his dad at first but William was a pretty trusting and open kid (too much so) so I can believe that he would adjust to his life with his dad, Raissa and Felicity without being pointlessly angry about the unfairness of life, at least when the rest of his life is fairly settled to his satisfaction.  Not every teen is a ball of self-destructive rage.  For all we know, he channeled all his issues into being the best student or something.  He could still have issues down the line as well without it being every day or even an immediate kind of thing. 

And when it comes to accepting what Oliver does as the GA, obviously this is an extreme comparison, but I can imagine that William being ok with what Oliver does is somewhat on par with kid of soldiers, firemen, or policemen accepting the possible dangers they face in their jobs and trusting they will be ok.  Not ideal, but they accept what the parent does as important. and they also trust they will be taken care of no matter what. 

How William is reacting falls for me within the broad range of how a kid might react so for me, I'm not getting pulled out of the story the show is telling.  And it's handy because I'm not interested in the other more angsty story that such a situation could have generated.  

[Mellowyellow]

Couldn't agree more with you @BkWurm1!!!!

They may very well write him with a bit of angst later on but many kids who have traumatic childhoods can and do shrug it off, going on to lead happy well adjusted lives, sometimes coping a lot better than those who aren't used to dealing with challenges. 

[Mary0360]

7 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Couldn't agree more with you @BkWurm1!!!!

They may very well write him with a bit of angst later on but many kids who have traumatic childhoods can and do shrug it off, going on to lead happy well adjusted lives, sometimes coping a lot better than those who aren't used to dealing with challenges. 

I agree. People grieve differently. I lost a parent and I still continued living my life and going through my day pretty quickly afterwards and sure it's always there in the back of your mind but if anything sometimes you need and crave some normalcy to get you through. I think movies and television sometimes overplay grief. Not everyone is a crying mess on the floor who can't cope with everyday life after the death of a love one. Sometimes you can't afford to be and most times it's not healthy to be.

 

So while it'd be nice to get a little more pov from William about his mothers death just to flesh out his character a little I don't think the show is ignoring his grief by showing him carry on his normal routine because that's what most parents or guardians would try do for children who lost loved ones. Not to mention it's now almost 8 months since William lost his mom. 

[statsgirl]

William made Oliver stop being the Green Arrow because he was afraid his sole remaining parent would be kill. I don't think that's underselling it.

I remember when William first came on he was really into The Flash. It's not inconceivable that he would be somewhat proud of his father saving the city.

[BkWurm1]

46 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

William made Oliver stop being the Green Arrow because he was afraid his sole remaining parent would be killed. I don't think that's underselling it.

I remember when William first came on he was really into The Flash. It's not inconceivable that he would be somewhat proud of his father saving the city.

1

Yeah, I think the show did show William had a real and deep concern after his mom did so it's not like they ignored his issues (plus the nightmares) but I'm also ok with him finding a way to work through his knee jerk reactions.  It's not that William is ok with the idea of his dad dying or that he's replaced him with Felicity but on a practical level, he's now too aware that something really could happen to his dad and on that same practical level, he needs to know he'll be ok.  But with keeping with what Felicity said, he also can in the meantime believe everything is going to be ok.  It's a balance I can find believable.  

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think there’s a whole spectrum of emotions between being a crying mess and completely chill/indifferent. Maybe it’s the acting because also in the scene in the bus it was like he was sitting there, waiting for someone to tell him it was his turn to talk, then got up and delivered his lines. I watched quite a few shows with kid actors, even younger than him, and they never pulled me out of the scene like this. Maybe because it felt they were having genuine reactions to what was happening around them all the times or because I felt they were putting some kind of emotion in the line they were reading (that doesn’t have to be intense grief or any over the top emotion, just not the emotionless way a person reads a textbook).

[Hiveminder]

The acting is definitely a part of it. That bus scene was terrible. I think he’s gotten better since he started though, and this is his first acting job outside of possibly local plays or something like that, right?  

[BkWurm1]

19 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

The acting is definitely a part of it. That bus scene was terrible. I think he’s gotten better since he started though, and this is his first acting job outside of possibly local plays or something like that, right?  

Yeah, the action in the bus scene with the line reading was not good.  He did fine responding to the bully but there was a lot that was deeply off when he took charge of the situation on the bus.  He really hasn't had much practice on those type of scenes.  He improved on the brooding and emotional ones so he could improve on the action scenes too given a chance.  

Edited February 1, 2018 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

So over on Reddit this question was asked:  

 

I answered and frankly, I liked my answer to the point of wanting to share it.  It's nothing very special or even something I haven't said before in parts here, but I enjoyed being able to look at the overreaching arc of the show and now answer.  So I thought I'd post what I said.  

***

It started with me not connecting with Laurel even though I came to the show in favor of a GA and BC pairing. Why Laurel didn't work isn't terribly important at this point, but suffice to say, I didn't like who Oliver was around Laurel.

Honestly, I barely liked Oliver. I liked him a bit with Diggle and was sympathetic to Thea and found Moira fascinating but Oliver was too hard to connect to on his own. He was too closed off and the only person he considered opening up to, Laurel, only made me side eye him and his choices even more.

After the 2nd episode, I stopped watching for a good long while and let episodes pile up on my DVR but in the new year started watching again because I told a friend who had cut the cord I'd tell him if it was worth his time and I wanted more than two episodes to judge it on.

The episode was fine and then Oliver walked into a bright cubicle and asked for Felicity Smoak. Something was very different. I perked up and was delighted by the whole initial exchange. He was both putting on his playboy act and being genuine. This guy I could like even if he was only a fleeting glimpse. It was like proof of concept that there was someone in Oliver that could still be human in a positive way without me feeling he was putting on a complete act or regressing to old bad behavior patterns.

I actually paused the episode and went online to see if I'd ever see this character he was talking to again. News of EBR being made a regular was already out and I was suddenly much more interested in watching the show.

 

Felicity initially was just a bright bit of fun in a usually desolate show but it brought a dimension to Oliver's character, along with his now more open interaction with Diggle, that gave me a way to like Oliver and with him, then the rest of the show. Still, after being a Chloe and Clark shipper on Smallville and having my heart stomped after years and years of teasing I had zero expectations.

My tentative hopes arrived in the episode where Felicity gave Oliver the notebook she'd gotten from Walter. I still didn't think the show was actually going to go there until after I watched the first two episodes of the second season, but I was now thinking the door was definitely being left open.

Everything about that scene in Big Belly made me think the show had real plans for these two. The rain falling outside making everything feel more intimate, Oliver waiting and giving a dorky, excited little wave when he spots her, the very serious discussion held in almost hushed tones that carried emotional weight even though Oliver and Felicity's interactions so far had only been light fun.

But the moment that really sold me on the pairing was when we had Felicity calling Oliver out for all his past ridiculous lies while also telling him she still for some reason instinctively felt like she could trust him. Followed by the even more important beat, her reaction when for a moment Oliver tried to make a joke of why she would trust him. We saw her clear disappointment in him and immediately, Oliver dropped the act and was honest with her in return. It was that honesty and reciprocal respect that more than anything initially attracted me to Olicity as a pairing and had me rooting hard for them.

Of course, it wasn't until an episode later that he completely came clean, but when she provisionally agreed to work with Oliver and Diggle, what that previous quiet, little, sincere scene had laid out was then put into practice. She wasn't just handing over information, she and her opinion was respected and heard even if she had to make him listen. She was more than a thing he might strive after or protect, she had a purpose and made a real contribution to the mission, the show, and impacted how he behaved.

That made Felicity feel like she quickly mattered more than the obviously designated love interest that too often felt written as superfluous to Oliver's story or pulling him backward.

I found what Felicity contributed and how she expected to be treated and then was treated made me see Oliver and Felicity as equals (or as least as equal enough and loaded with more potential for down the line) in a way that I couldn't with Laurel and all of Oliver's loaded past with her and his continued secret keeping and flip-flopping behavior that had him regressing to someone I didn't like.

 

There was only a brief illusion of equity with Helena who Oliver immediately treated like a fixer-upper project slash makeover and who he only saw what he wanted to see in her, how he wished he could have been rather than who she really was.

Then there was McKenna who was supposed to be an old friend but right away showed that how he used to be was getting in the way of her respecting and understanding that Oliver was a different person which we saw by her pushing for details of his time away. That initial issue between them framed their future relationship even when they seemingly got past the initial problem. It told me, they weren't ultimately a good fit.

McKenna seemed like Oliver playing at being normal. I actually liked her and the show possibly could have done something with her character long term that would have interested me but never moved past being just another woman Oliver was keeping in the dark, not sharing his real self with plus it didn't help that Felicity was the one that encouraged a reluctant Oliver to pursue her. That and the lack of understanding of Oliver's needed boundaries right away framed that relationship as temporary. An experiment and eventually a failed experiment.

It didn't take the show long to start playing up Oliver's trust and closeness to Felicity. The "moments" that Olicity fans will speak of. Some of it was absolutely scripted like when they were breaking into Merlyn Global and Oliver pushes an interloper that was flirting with Felicity out of the elevator and they go on to have a scene that involves Oliver telling her to hold on to him tightly and Felicity dropping TMI about him saying that.

Other times I'm sure it was just the actors sparking off of each other. Little extra lingering looks and touches. Whether one sees the chemistry or not, SA has repeatedly spoken of how he felt that acting with EBR in that initial scene opened and lightened him up and later about how giving he felt she was to work with, that she gave him so much to respond to and the ease they both felt as they became friends. That IMO translated in an obvious manner on screen.

Season two only built up on what I liked even more. Felicity was an essential part of the team, but more so, she brought out something in Oliver I didn't see brought out in him elsewhere, something that he seemed to recognize and those often were bits of his humanity that made me love Oliver more than anything else he was doing on screen. He was honest with her while at the same time, she respected his need to open up at his own pace while also not being a doormat or portrayed as perfect and just there for his convenience.

She got mad when warranted, lashed out sometimes, occasionally petty in a realistic way and even be deeply disappointed in him but she didn't turn against him and that came in contrast in season two with Laurel blaming the Arrow for all her woes. Or self-medicating while blaming everyone but herself for her actions. She found out Oliver's secret and she even for a while considered selling him out in trade for getting her father off the hook for something. She gave me reasons not to trust that she had Oliver's best interests at heart even when later she seemed supportive.

In contrast the show gave me Felicity who didn't always agree with Oliver and didn't stay silent about that but she was still at his side helping to save his company (well, they kept everyone from getting fired at least) or the city, or his life or like right at the start of the second season, his soul by not telling Oliver how he had to behave but helping him to find a balance that he could at the time live with. (And then later when he could no longer live with his no kill rule, again being supportive and helping him deal with the dichotomy of sometimes being judge, jury and executioner.)

Felicity's belief in Oliver and their shared mission were hugely important elements in why I shipped Oliver and Felicity above everyone. I liked Sara in season two (and now love her on LoT) and in many ways, she and Oliver were a great fit when they became a couple. They shared the past and had gone through similar traumas and therefore understood each other in a way that no one else in their lives could.

But I also immediately saw that they wouldn't last as a couple because not just of their soon revealed differing stances on how to handle problems (Oliver being set on not killing) but in how they were too similar in too many negative ways and that while that made them understand each other, it also meant they reinforced bad habits in each other and part of what made them comfortable, also meant together they were never going to really open up in a way they would need to in order to grow. They couldn't bring that out in each other.

Oliver and Felicity were very different in many ways but those ways didn't set them at odds but rather complemented their strengths and weaknesses. They shared goals and mission related standards and beliefs, big picture stuff that really mattered and they differed in approach and personality but in ways that made their partnership stronger since they could bring different assets to the relationship to make up for the other's weaknesses. Basically, they complemented each other. I didn't see them as opposites attracting since despite differing manners, he gruff and curt, she sunny and babbling, they ultimately believed in and wanted the same things.

In season three they were working out the bigger differences between them (Oliver's belief he couldn't have a relationship or really even a future) but they still in my opinion were the same people with the same values and push pull that I'd seen in previous seasons. Just much more miserable, lol.

Season Four I found them lovely together until Oliver was a total bone head about William, lying and shutting his fiance out of something so monumental to their lives in a manner that proved that he wasn't ready to be married, but it didn't make me change my mind that if they could work out the issues they still had between them, then they remained the best fits for each other.

And then in season five, Oliver upped his honesty and openness and Felicity got to walk a mile in his shoes and understand more fully the morass of operating in the grey area and how that could compromise one's judgment and was no easy thing to navigate.

So even when what was being shown between Oliver and Felicity in the later seasons wasn't the easy partnership that we'd seen in early seasons, they IMO remained true to themselves and what we were watching were growing pains much in the way Oliver had to go through his Hood days before he could see the bigger picture and become a true hero. The potential was still clear to those looking.

So that's why, at least in part, I saw Felicity as the better match early on and why that never changed even when there was deepening conflict or other options.

And now we are on the other side of the growing pains and back to the simplicity of the strong, mutually supportive, empathetic partnership that I saw coming telegraphed back in that rainy, quiet scene when Felicity reached out to Oliver and she gave him her trust and he gave her his sincerity.

What we've seen this year, the understanding, respect, love, and maturity, is what I've always seen as their future.
And is why it was worth the wait of finally seeing it fully realized.

Edited February 3, 2018 by BkWurm1

[Mellowyellow]

So how do we all feel about Felicity confirming she's loved Oliver since the shot up laptop?

I think it goes nicely with his stupid smitten S3 flashback face and his "It was red" comment on their date during 301!

?????????????

You do not want to know how many times I've played Savage Garden's "I knew I loved you" since last week's episode.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

So how do we all feel about Felicity confirming she's loved Oliver since the shot up laptop?

I think it goes nicely with his stupid smitten S3 flashback face and his "It was red" comment on their date during 301!

?????????????

You do not want to know how many times I've played Savage Garden's "I knew I loved you" since last week's episode.

I actually think love is a bit of a stretch tbh. I always thought she was attracted to him and intrigued by him and had this instant connection but I never thought she loved him the whole time. Though I do think she loved him longer than she thought? In s3 it seemed like she was in a bit of denial or didn't want to admit to herself how much she loved him. 

But I don't mind that they made it canon. It's actually pretty sweet really, and worked beautifully in her speech to William. But it's also bittersweet seeing as she watched him with Laurel and Sara and all the others and never said a thing. Aw. ?

[BkWurm1]

I actually think when Felicity says she loved Oliver since he showed up with the bullet-ridden laptop it was mostly hyperbole on her part.  I think for both of them, their first meeting was important and meant something to them and stuck with them and even probably made each other hyper-aware of the other, but I also imagine that it became something more important and meaningful retroactively the more they knew each other. 

Which probably means I don't really believe in love at first sight but I do believe that you might know when some kind of momentous change comes to your life and then later be able to explain what kind of meaning it brought.      

Edited February 3, 2018 by BkWurm1

[Mellowyellow]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I actually think when Felicity says she loved Oliver since he showed up with the bullet-ridden laptop it was mostly hyperbole on her part.  I think for both of them, their first meeting was important and meant something to them and stuck with them and even probably made each other hyper-aware of the other, but I also imagine that it became something more important and meaningful retroactively the more they knew each other. 

Which probably means I don't really believe in love at first sight but I do believe that you might know when some kind of momentous change comes to your life and then later be able to explain what kind of meaning it brought.      

I love this a zillion times!!!!!!!!!!

And very applicable to me and my first pup too so thank you for that! 

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I actually think love is a bit of a stretch tbh. I always thought she was attracted to him and intrigued by him and had this instant connection but I never thought she loved him the whole time. Though I do think she loved him longer than she thought? In s3 it seemed like she was in a bit of denial or didn't want to admit to herself how much she loved him. 

 

I agree with this..also because he was lying to her at the time..I think she started loving him when she got to know the real him. I think there was definitely a spark but I like the idea that the started to love him when she got to know the guy who was risking his life for the city, not the fake persona he was showing the world because it seems more profound to me somehow than cheesy romcom-ish love at first sight..

[Featherhat]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I actually think when Felicity says she loved Oliver since he showed up with the bullet-ridden laptop it was mostly hyperbole on her part.  I think for both of them, their first meeting was important and meant something to them and stuck with them and even probably made each other hyper-aware of the other, but I also imagine that it became something more important and meaningful retroactively the more they knew each other. 

Which probably means I don't really believe in love at first sight but I do believe that you might know when some kind of momentous change comes to your life and then later be able to explain what kind of meaning it brought.      

Yeah I agree, it was something that became more important retroactively, not just meeting her future husband but the entire introduction to the life she is currently leading.

Great answer to reddits question. I rolled my eyes at "even Laurel" because even n in S1 and flashbacks it was never shown as a good relationship and if she wasn't DLL I don't think many people would question that. His and Sara's renewed relationship made more sense to me, even though I agree it was never going to be longterm and they're way better off where they currently are. Did they get many other good responses? 

[BkWurm1]

21 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Did they get many other good responses? 

I was the only fan that answered. Their favorite answers revolved around Felicity fans self-identifying as Felicity and trying to live vicariously and other things along that line.  

Edited February 3, 2018 by BkWurm1

[Featherhat]

48 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I was the only fan that answered. Their favorite answers revolved around Felicity fans self-identifying as Felicity and trying to live vicariously and other things along that line.  

 

See I've never got that. I'm definitely not a supergenius, beautiful hacktivist. Yeah I'm a geek but that's about all we have in common. I just think the actors sizzle together and make sense as characters. Are they suggesting GB or MG self identity as Felicity or is it just pathetic fangirls? TBH I probably have more in common with Laurel, in that I'm a sometimes bitchy professional with ambition whose kinda rubbish at martial arts. I'm certain my nothing like my favourite characters Sara or Mick. I'm willing to bet most of them are not anything like their favs either and certainly few of their writers are.

Unlike designed to be "self insert" characters ala Bella Swan Felicity does have a very defined personality and flaws, which is why a lot of people there hate her.

ETA: my favourite character ever o tv is Aeryn Sun, anyone like to hazard a guess at how much I think I'm like her or how much I actually want her life?

Edited February 3, 2018 by Featherhat

[Mellowyellow]

21 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I was the only fan that answered. Their favorite answers revolved around Felicity fans self-identifying as Felicity and trying to live vicariously and other things along that line.  

Haha so does that mean there is a HUGE army of beautiful, genius ladies with complicated pasts running around and we're all fantasising about finding our own broody, good looking vigilantes?

I too am NOTHING like Felicity in real life. You know Jessica from Fresh Off the Boat? That's almost me! Very exaggerated version but pretty much me! And trust me she ain't anything like Felicity!

[BkWurm1]

Went back and looked again.  The other prevailing theory was anyone was better than Laurel ( That one amused me) and people were rooting for the underdog because there would be no way the babbling nerd would get the hot action guy so wouldn't it be a hoot, but then that answer also devolved into a claim about self-insertion.  

[Featherhat]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Went back and looked again.  The other prevailing theory was anyone was better than Laurel ( That one amused me) and people were rooting for the underdog because there would be no way the babbling nerd would get the hot action guy so wouldn't it be a hoot, but then that answer also devolved into a claim about self-insertion.  

Again, beautiful super smart girl  who found out his secret 11 episodes into her run =/= "underdog" she would only be considered that if you thought they were never going against comics canon.

@BkWurm1 I actually have gone there and seen your well thought out lengthy posts and can't fathom why anyone would think there was one simple answer to the question. We like what we like but Because Comics is just as shallow an answer as SA is attractive or Self identification, especially with their relationship in the co ICS over the years, in the show and expecting Oliver to declare his love when LL became insta Canary and the issues yove pintedout with other LI.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think they need to check again how attractive Felicity is, lol. IMO EBR looks more beautiful every year.

[Mellowyellow]

2 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think they need to check again how attractive Felicity is, lol. IMO EBR looks more beautiful every year.

She does, doesn't she?

I thought she was very pretty S1, S2 but she's grown up all super gorgeous! I have seen candid shots of her that look like a photoshoot! 

[tv echo]

Bravo, @BkWurm1, on your reddit answer. That was amazing.

[leopardprint]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I was the only fan that answered. Their favorite answers revolved around Felicity fans self-identifying as Felicity and trying to live vicariously and other things along that line.  

Yes, because super rich, super handsome who are the bestest fighters and have all the ladies swooning are never self-insert fantasy characters. I don’t actually understand this argument because a) what exactly is wrong with that? and b) Oliver is an exceptional person (sometimes exceptionally stupid...) and Felicity is also an exceptional person? She isn’t some rando off the street he fell for? 

5 hours ago, Featherhat said:

TBH I probably have more in common with Laurel, in that I'm a sometimes bitchy professional with ambition whose kinda rubbish at martial arts.

OMG, I also own a suspicious amount of ankle length pants and leather jackets and have a high pitched voice. ? 

10 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Oliver and Felicity were very different in many ways but those ways didn't set them at odds but rather complemented their strengths and weaknesses. They shared goals and mission related standards and beliefs, big picture stuff that really mattered and they differed in approach and personality but in ways that made their partnership stronger since they could bring different assets to the relationship to make up for the other's weaknesses. Basically, they complemented each other. I didn't see them as opposites attracting since despite differing manners, he gruff and curt, she sunny and babbling, they ultimately believed in and wanted the same things.

I agree, I think that though the show always said that Laurel saw the best in Oliver it always seemed like she wanted him to be some ideal she concocted in her head whereas with Felicity she encouraged him to be the best version of himself and vice versa. 

[Hiveminder]

10 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

So how do we all feel about Felicity confirming she's loved Oliver since the shot up laptop?

I think it goes nicely with his stupid smitten S3 flashback face and his "It was red" comment on their date during 301!

?????????????

You do not want to know how many times I've played Savage Garden's "I knew I loved you" since last week's episode.

I didn’t like it. One, because I believe in attraction or a spark at first sight, bot not love. And two, because I prefer the idea that Oliver and Felicity grew in love over the course of getting to know each other. I think Felicity’s perception of the past is colored by her current feelings. 

6 hours ago, Featherhat said:

See I've never got that. I'm definitely not a supergenius, beautiful hacktivist. Yeah I'm a geek but that's about all we have in common. I just think the actors sizzle together and make sense as characters. Are they suggesting GB or MG self identity as Felicity or is it just pathetic fangirls? TBH I probably have more in common with Laurel, in that I'm a sometimes bitchy professional with ambition whose kinda rubbish at martial arts. I'm certain my nothing like my favourite characters Sara or Mick. I'm willing to bet most of them are not anything like their favs either and certainly few of their writers are.

Unlike designed to be "self insert" characters ala Bella Swan Felicity does have a very defined personality and flaws, which is why a lot of people there hate her.

ETA: my favourite character ever o tv is Aeryn Sun, anyone like to hazard a guess at how much I think I'm like her or how much I actually want her life?

 

I’m pretty sure when they say people are self-identifying as Felicity they’re picturing a bunch of nerdy, unattractive girls in, like, headgear pretending they’re hot enough to get the handsome billionaire. 

39 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Yes, because super rich, super handsome who are the bestest fighters and have all the ladies swooning are never self-insert fantasy characters. I don’t actually understand this argument because a) what exactly is wrong with that? and b) Oliver is an exceptional person (sometimes exceptionally stupid...) and Felicity is also an exceptional person? She isn’t some rando off the street he fell for? 

OMG, I also own a suspicious amount of ankle length pants and leather jackets and have a high pitched voice. ? 

I agree, I think that though the show always said that Laurel saw the best in Oliver it always seemed like she wanted him to be some ideal she concocted in her head whereas with Felicity she encouraged him to be the best version of himself and vice versa. 

Laurel may have seen the best in Oliver, who can say? I thought she seemed suspiciously judgmental and at times derisive of someone she ‘saw the best in’. What I do know, is that they brought out the worst in each other. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Hiveminder

[bijoux]

24 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I’m pretty sure when they say people are self-identifying as Felicity they’re picturing a bunch of nerdy, unattractive girls in, like, headgear pretending they’re hot enough to get the handsome billionaire. 

If that were true, so what?

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

If that were true, so what?

If what were true? That that’s what Felicity fans are actually like or that that’s what some anti-Felicity people think Felicity fans are like? Because I only believe one of those things. 

[tv echo]

Upon reflection, I have discovered that I have three requirements for 'shipping a fictional TV couple: (1) two actors with amazing on-screen chemistry, (2) who can convincingly portray romantic feelings for each other's characters, and (3) whose characters make each other better people. All three of these requirements must be met.

You can write the third requirement. You can cast the second requirement. But you cannot manufacture the first requirement.

With Arrow, they hit the jackpot in casting EBR as Felicity and, I believe, were surprised by the strength of her on-screen chemistry with SA as Oliver. They also got two good actors who genuinely liked each other. And although the writers sometimes wrote towards their chemistry and sometimes wrote away from their chemistry, it's clear that over the course of six seasons, Felicity and Oliver helped each other evolve into better, more well-rounded human beings.

As for past candidates such as Laurel, Mckenna, Helena or Sara, none of them met all three requirements. SA had decent chemistry with CL, and they're both good actors, but their characters were both struggling with darkness and wouldn't have been able to help each other become the people that they needed to be in order to be happy. SA also had decent chemistry with JDG, and again they're both good actors, but Helena would've just dragged Oliver down even further into the darkness. As for Mckenna, I never thought that JG had any chemistry with SA, but even if she had, I found her character so blah that I couldn't imagine Mckenna holding her own with Oliver in such a way that would force Oliver to rethink his priorities and methods. (YMMV.)

Now, Oliver and Laurel. The writers could've easily written the show to show their characters slowly reconciling and then helping each other become better people over the course of several seasons. However, the writing would not have compensated for the lack of chemistry between SA and KC, or the lack of believability in their love story. I never read the Green Arrow comics and had no idea that Black Canary was his love interest, when I first started watching Arrow in S1. But, of course, I thought it likely that the lead female character, Laurel, was going to be the main love interest of the hero, Oliver. So I watched the pilot both willing and eager to ship their characters.

But, man, from the get go, Laurel was so unlikeable. And whenever she and Oliver interacted, it was so unpleasant to watch. Even now, after having watched Oliver and Laurel interact for four seasons, I find it difficult to believe that these two people once loved each other or even liked each other. Ironically, Laurel and Tommy had the dynamic that kinda paralleled Oliver and Felicity. Just like Felicity made Oliver more likeable, Tommy made Laurel more likeable. 

The casting also didn't help. Laurel was supposed to be this loving, compassionate lawyer fighting for justice for the downtrodden. But what we mostly saw from Laurel was bitter hostility at first and then arrogant self-entitlement later on. As others have said, KC is better at portraying the cold, mean girl than she is at portraying warmth or vulnerability. (Again, YMMV.) But even if she had been great at portraying the St. Laurel character that was later described by Laurel's family and friends in S5, that still wouldn't have solved the problem of KC having zero chemistry with SA.

ETA: I was never a Clark & Chloe shipper. To be honest, I was never a big fan of Chloe on Smallville. The last fictional TV couple I shipped as much as Olicity was Crichton and Aeryn on Farscape.  They definitely met all three requirements.

Edited February 3, 2018 by tv echo

[KenyaJ]

11 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Great answer to reddits question. I rolled my eyes at "even Laurel" because even n in S1 and flashbacks it was never shown as a good relationship and if she wasn't DLL I don't think many people would question that. 

I'd like for whomever asked that question to explain what makes (made) Laurel a match for Oliver without being able to fall back on "comics" as an answer. 

[bijoux]

3 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

If what were true? That that’s what Felicity fans are actually like or that that’s what some anti-Felicity people think Felicity fans are like? Because I only believe one of those things. 

The first one. So what if all their fans were nerdy, unattractive girls? That doesn't make the shipping or the ship less valid. It's not like nerdy, unattractive girls are somehow unvalid fans. One could make an arguement that comics were a sanctuary for a lot of nerdy, unattractive boys. 

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, Hiveminder said:

I’m pretty sure when they say people are self-identifying as Felicity they’re picturing a bunch of nerdy, unattractive girls in, like, headgear pretending they’re hot enough to get the handsome billionaire. 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, bijoux said:

If that were true, so what?

I agree that no one has any business casting judgment and scorn on why something brings pleasure to a viewer but their argument that gets pitched about self-insertion fantasy doesn't stop at nerdy not so hot girls fantasizing or even just girls fantasizing.  When a certain crowd uses self-insertion to "explain" why something is popular or loved, the theory isn't limited to just someone dreaming about what it would be like to be that person, but the assertion that they are mentally unfit for doing so, either too young to form real opinions or incapable of real relationships or just plain delusional.  It's kind of the same insulting crap that still gets said about romance novels and how it warps women's minds and they can't tell fiction from reality.   (Where are the protests trying to save guys from buying spy thrillers?)

Plus, it's just not true that all fans like Felicity and Olicity because they dream of being her or being in that situation.  I liked Felicity right away but I shipped Olicity not because of wanting to be Felicity but because of how she improved Oliver and thus the whole show and thus my whole viewing experience.  And I don't self-insert into any form of media or entertainment.  I'm too interested in the existing characters and their lives to put myself in their shoes.  If I self-inserted I would never have made it past the pilot episode because Oliver Queen in real life standards is not someone I'd even want to know let alone date, lol.   I like taking the worlds built in individual shows or books and judging the characters' actions based on those rules.   My own experiences, I'm sure, color how I perceive them, but I don't hold them to my normal standards.  

I'm a serial shipper.  I think rooting for a couple makes nearly every show or book or movie better but It's never just that they are hot or cute and I hate knowing that there are large groups that dismiss a complex issue as one narrow thing.  But I guess that could be said about nearly everything in life, lol.   

1 hour ago, KenyaJ said:

I'd like for whomever asked that question to explain what makes (made) Laurel a match for Oliver without being able to fall back on "comics" as an answer. 

What I've read in the past seems to be based on taking what the show has said about Laurel at face value.  (Specifically early season stuff)

Like when Moira told Laurel she liked who her son was when he'd been dating her.  But that ignored who her son REALLY was when he was dating Laurel. 

I tend to think that what the show says about Felicity when it praises her is backed up by what is shown while I felt that Laurel's praise often was easy to poke holes in without having to distort reality.  Like when Oliver said in season one Laurel might know him better than anyone.  But then never felt the need to actually show her the real him or even stick around after a tragedy to be with her in any capacity.    

Edited February 3, 2018 by BkWurm1

[SmallScreenDiva]

I poked around that site today and aside from @BkWurm1, there were a couple of posts that I thought were pretty articulate about why they liked Felicity as Oliver's partner. Although there was still a point or two within those posts that had me rolling my eyes. The self-insertion comments are just asinine and go with the whole thinking that Olicity fans are either teenage girls with no brains or frustrated mothers who are stuck at home. I mean, don't think all comic fanboys are unemployed jerks who've never touched a girl and are still living in their mothers' basements :P

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

The first one. So what if all their fans were nerdy, unattractive girls? That doesn't make the shipping or the ship less valid. It's not like nerdy, unattractive girls are somehow unvalid fans. One could make an arguement that comics were a sanctuary for a lot of nerdy, unattractive boys. 

I agree with you. I was more commenting on other's point of view. I think some people view Felicity fans that way because that's what they want Felicity to be, and I think that they think that that image of people is something to be derided. I don't agree with that, but that's what I think quite a few people think. 

[Featherhat]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

What I've read in the past seems to be based on taking what the show has said about Laurel at face value.  (Specifically early season stuff)

Like when Moira told Laurel she liked who her son was when he'd been dating her.  But that ignored who her son REALLY was when he was dating Laurel. 

I tend to think that what the show says about Felicity when it praises her is backed up by what is shown while I felt that Laurel's praise often was easy to poke holes in without having to distort reality.  Like when Oliver said in season one Laurel might know him better than anyone.  But then never felt the need to actually show her the real him or even stick around after a tragedy to be with her in any capacity.    

 

You mean like all the times he cheated on her, basically laughed in her face and could neither commit to moving in with her or have the courage to say he wasn't ready? Or how about the time he moped in her lap about getting her friend pregnant? 

The BMD would still have happened if the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy show was going on, it would just have been even worse because he actually cheated on her at the time. The only reason s she didn't have an opinion in S4 was because 1) they needed everyone to agree with Oliver to have any semblance of making the storyline work b) they knew they were killing her off in a couple of episodes anyway c) most of her non death none Sara storylines in S4 involved her just being in the background.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Featherhat

[statsgirl]

Speaking of self-insertion,  I'm watching an Indiana Jones marathon on TV. Now if you want self-insertion,  every male college professor and a lot of other men are thinking of themselves as that handsome and physically agile and smart. At least it's less of a distance from me to Felicity than them to Indiana Jones .