Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[ohjoy]

On 5/27/2017 at 2:59 AM, Midnight Lullaby said:

My favorite hearteyes scene is still the beach scene in 223 where he looks at her like she hung the moon and it's so precious.

That's mine too! I tend to be dense about things like heart eyes -- I usually think I'm imagining things or just chalk it up to the show teasing me and don't expect follow-through (I've shipped some stalled or crack ships over the years). But it was flat impossible to miss the shiny bright starry eyes in that beach scene. I remember sitting in front of my tv half-shouting at Oliver to SAY SOMETHING!!! I probably had more anticipation after 2x23 than any other Arrow finale. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by RandomMe
auto-correct is not correct

[leopardprint]

Apparently I have a secret love for angst, because I love the scene in the secret lair in 221 and then when they "fight" in 401 when Oliver finds out she's been helping the team which I will call indignant hearteyes. Haha! 

Edited May 29, 2017 by leopardprint

[Mellowyellow]

Oooh one of my favourites was when he says to her "Felicity wanna play a game?"

It was cute and I know it wasn't meant to be dirty but it sounded kind of dirty when it's between them. 

[leopardprint]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

Oooh one of my favourites was when he says to her "Felicity wanna play a game?"

It was cute and I know it wasn't meant to be dirty but it sounded kind of dirty when it's between them. 

His righteous anger had no defense against her cuteness. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

This cuteness? How can you stay mad at this face? ;)

[Mellowyellow]

Gawd she's such a cutie patootie!!!!! Absolutely adorable ?

[lemotomato]

3 minutes ago, johntfs said:

I just get how some of the comic fans feel as they do.  It's like if Clark Kent ignores Lois Lane to go with Journalist Intern #3 or Peter Parker skates past Gwen Stacy or Mary Jane to get with Pizza Delivery Girl.  How about Harry Potter never gets with Ginny Weasley but instead gets with the Hot Waitress from the beginning of Movie 6 (Actually, I think that would have been cool).   For my part, I think Twilight would have been better if Bella had dissed the vamps/wolves and gone with Biology Class Student, but that's just me.

I'm going to have to disagree with your analogies. First of all, Twilight is a flawed comparison because it's a romance novel, so of course the main pairing can't be changed, since it's the focus. GA comics and Arrow are supposed to be an action adventure story with Oliver as the focus, and everyone else supporting his story as needed. Maybe a better comparison would be if a TV series were to be made of Around the World in 80 Days, and Phileas Fogg ends up with another woman he meets on his journey instead of Aouda because the actor playing Fogg can't help but look constipated or dead-eyed every time he has to share scenes with the actress that plays Aouda.

Secondly, GA and BC are not nearly in the same league of popularity as Peter/MJ or even Peter/Gwen, much less Superman/Lois. (Not to mention how both Peter and Superman ended up with different long term love interests depending on which run of the comics you're reading). I'm not completely ignorant of comics (I read more Marvel than DC), but even I didn't know who GA was before he showed up in Smallville. You could ask 10 people off the street to represent the general audience, and I bet you they'd know more about Harry Potter than GA.

My point being, the show was given a choice between giving the general audience a pairing that worked on screen, versus appeasing a relatively small faction. And tbh, I'd feel sympathetic to that faction if it weren't for the fact that since they're not getting their preferred pairing, they insist that there shouldn't be any romance at all on the show, and make false claims about how romance has "killed" the show.

[apinknightmare]

I think that it's perfectly fine for fans of the source material to be upset that they aren't getting some of the same relationships that they came to love in the comics. I've been upset at way smaller changes that were made to movies made from books that I love! But we're three + years into a change in the main pairing and the show hasn't shown a single sign of going back to comic canon. So...I think it's past time for anyone still hanging on to that bitterness to put it in a bubble and blow it away. It ain't happening. Either accept that it isn't, or maybe stop watching for your own sanity instead of endlessly complaining about it.

Edited June 3, 2017 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

49 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

 But we're three + years into a change in the main pairing and the show hasn't shown a single sign of going back to comic canon.

Not only have they shown no sign of going back to comic canon, they killed off Laurel.  There are few more definitive statements than that.

I understand, I hated it when they killed Jadzia Dax ruining my perfect ship and replaced her with that wimp Ezri.  But it turned out that while Jadzia was perfect for Worf, Ezri worked much better for Julian Bashir.  Maybe they should be thinking about who the Black Siren should be with rather than trying to turn her into a dead character that didn't work out in the first place.

It almost makes me want a Felicity/Oliver/Black Siren triangle just to highlight the difference.

[strikera0]

Quote

First of all, Twilight is a flawed comparison because it's a romance novel, so of course the main pairing can't be changed, since it's the focus.

Hasn't stopped the producers/writers of True Blood. While they don't actually end up together, Eric/Sookie are the main pairing and Bill is more of a side character in the novels the show is based on. The tv show, on the other hand, was all about Bill and Bill/Sookie while Eric was never more than a supporting character. I never watched the show, but a few of my friends did and they told me a lot of fans were pissed about those changes. 

Edited June 4, 2017 by strikera0

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Secondly, GA and BC are not nearly in the same league of popularity as Peter/MJ or even Peter/Gwen, much less Superman/Lois. (Not to mention how both Peter and Superman ended up with different long term love interests depending on which run of the comics you're reading). I'm not completely ignorant of comics (I read more Marvel than DC), but even I didn't know who GA was before he showed up in Smallville. You could ask 10 people off the street to represent the general audience, and I bet you they'd know more about Harry Potter than GA.

My point being, the show was given a choice between giving the general audience a pairing that worked on screen, versus appeasing a relatively small faction. And tbh, I'd feel sympathetic to that faction if it weren't for the fact that since they're not getting their preferred pairing, they insist that there shouldn't be any romance at all on the show, and make false claims about how romance has "killed" the show.

As you might recall, while I have some empathy for the feelings that the original comics fans had, my ultimate conclusion on them and their attitudes was "Fuck those guys."  I never watched much Smallville, giving up in the first season because despite Michael Rosenbaun as a pretty cool Lex Luther, I got a bit tired of the "Oh, look, yet another meteor freak monster."  My first real exposure to Green Arrow (and Black Canary) came in a 2010 cartoon where he and Black Canary faced off against Merlyn the Magnificent (voiced by Malcolm McDowell) and Count Vertigo.  Green Arrow was voiced by Neal McDonough.  It was pretty good and the idea of a live-action Green Arrow/Black Canary didn't seem like an idea that sucked, but I wasn't married to it.

I came late to the Arrowverse party, binging through the first three seasons (and Season 1 of The Flash) after Christmas 2015.  Still, I did watch the first three episode in Season One of Arrow in one setting.  Whatever empathy I have toward comic fans is blown away by the clear necessity of Emily Bett Rickards' presence on the show.  Watching the first two episodes of Arrow feels more like an extended prologue for episodes of Criminal Minds, where the team will gear up to hunt this psychopath with an archery fetish.  Showing Oliver suddenly turning into a human being in Felicity's presence was absolutely critical to the continuation of the show.  Without her, it probably would've been cancelled by episode 10 or so.

[statsgirl]

From the Starling Times thread

1 hour ago, shadow2008 said:

What's IMO unfortunate about the failure of GA/BC on Arrow is that they are one of those rare, enduring romances between superheroes. Other superheroes may also have the occasional superhero love interest (think Batman/Catwoman or Daredevil/Elektra), but they're either temporary or presented as a romantic foil. The main love interest is almost always a regular girl/guy and when it isn't, the characters tend to be so obscure that the relationship never makes it to a live-action medium. So from that standpoint, I can understand that fans, who were hoping to see a true superhero power couple kicking ass and taking names, are disappointed to end up with more of the same.

I'll admit my bias:  I don't understand what the big deal is to have two superheroes in a relationship.  But more than that, I don't see how it could work on television.  TV is a medium that depends on opposites playing off of each other, whether it's the brusqueness of Worf against the optimism of Dax or the seriousness of Beckett against the manchild Castle. For  multi-season TV show, Daredevil/Elektra isn't going to work unless they are surrounded by characters who aren't like them and will carry a substantial portion of the show.

I also think that Oliver and Felicity, along with Diggle, are kicking ass and taking names.   She's not out there punching but she is essential to the Green Arrow being as successful as he is.  The difference is that Felicity is a superhero that I can be.  I can't shoot like Oliver or know the martial arts of Sara or have the money of Ray Palmer or Tony Stark to build neat suits or have a super serum like Captain America or alien super powers like the Supes.  But I can learn how to hack and do tech support so Felicity is a superhero that I can actually be like.  There is nothing regular about Felicity.

Edited June 4, 2017 by statsgirl

[Mellowyellow]

I think for GA/BC  to have had a fighting chance on Arrow they needed to hire an actress who was capable of any other expression besides smug and/or angry. An actress who was capable of throwing a convincing punch and not look like she was constantly flailing around and about to fall on her face would have helped. 

They didn't and now I think the BS role is even worse as it really highlights KC's amateurish cartoony over acting. She was prickly, angry and smug as LL (which I didn't mind although she was completely unsuitable as Oliver's LI) but now she's just stomps around looking smug and acting like she's in a bad school play. Can you imagine THAT as a LI? Yiiikes.

This is not taking into account the fact that they would have had to top the Oliver/Felicity chemistry which is magical and has been discussed to death already (although I'm always up for rewatching Olicity clips).

But yeah a likeable actress cast as BC would have been a good start! Someone who was appealing to the general audience and not just comic fans who seem to accept anyone as long as they had the right name. 

[leopardprint]

I just don't understand how an epic love story can be built on a history of serial cheating including with the epic love interest's sister who died as a result. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I feel like that is not only burning the bridge but also salting the ashes and then burying radioactive waste under the ashes. 

Edited June 4, 2017 by leopardprint

[lemotomato]

8 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I just don't understand how an epic love story can be built on a history of serial cheating including with the epic love interest's sister who died as a result. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I feel like that is not only burning the bridge but salting the ashes and then burying radioactive waste under the ashes. 

And now I wonder if their use of  "Radioactive" as the song for the O/L hookup scene was another meta statement by the producers/writers, like having BS constantly dissed and knocked out.

Edited June 4, 2017 by lemotomato

[Mellowyellow]

4 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

I just don't understand how an epic love story can be built on a history of serial cheating including with the epic love interest's sister who died as a result. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I feel like that is not only burning the bridge but also salting the ashes and then burying radioactive waste under the ashes. 

Who knows! Maybe if they had cast better and Oliver looked at Laurel like she was sunshine and rainbows (instead of a dead rodent he had to scrape off his lawn) maybe some of us could have forgiven the cheating back story as a "mistakes in his youth" type of thing. But we will never know!

[Mellowyellow]

40 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

And now I wonder if their use of  "Radioactive" as the song for the O/L hookup scene was another meta statement by the producers/writers, like having BS constantly dissed and knocked out.

I just googled the lyrics. Is it the song about a prison bus and chemicals or is there another song?

I have never watched the Lauriver hook up scene.

[Starfish35]

Quote

I can understand that fans, who were hoping to see a true superhero power couple kicking ass and taking names, are disappointed to end up with more of the same.

I'm going to come out and admit that yes, this is one of the ideas that drew me to the show in the first place, the idea of an actual live-action superhero pairing.  It's not something we've seen on TV I don't think, not in live action anyway.  (We had Green Lantern and Hawkgirl in Justice League. And a lot of teasing of Batman and Wonder Woman, but they sadly never went there.)   I don't agree that it can't work on TV - I think it absolutely could, done right.  But it was never ever going to work with Katie Cassidy, and I figured that out pretty quickly into the show.  So I guess that's why I don't understand people who keep holding on to the idea of her version of the character (or alternate earth version) being paired up with Oliver.   That wasn't ever going to work - Felicity or no Felicity.  In some alternate reality where EBR never showed up on the Arrow set to spark instant chemistry with SA, I think they still would have ended up writing away from Lauriver because it was just so so bad.  Maybe they would have ended up going with Oliver and Sara.  Maybe someone else would have shown up and they would have gone that direction.  But I guess, short of casting a different actress for Laurel, I don't believe there was any way that Lauriver would have worked.  So I guess my thoughts are - if you're mad about Lauriver or GA/BC not happening, direct your anger toward whoever insisted that KC be hired in the first place, because that's where it went wrong.  Not with the writers seizing on the opportunity that dropped into their lap with EBR and Felicity.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Starfish35

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, Mellowyellow said:

I just googled the lyrics. Is it the song about a prison bus and chemicals or is there another song?

I have never watched the Lauriver hook up scene.

Yup, that's the one! 

You totally should watch the L/O hookup, if only for laughs because of how bad it was compared to 320. The socks! The way she wrapped around him like a koala bear! The scene ending with a closeup of poor Tommy's face!

And then watch this blooper reel to see them literally fail spectacularly while filming the L/O hookup scene. (at minute 1:55)

Edited June 4, 2017 by lemotomato

[Midnight Lullaby]

8 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I'm going to have to disagree with your analogies. First of all, Twilight is a flawed comparison because it's a romance novel, so of course the main pairing can't be changed, since it's the focus. 

It also doesn't work as a comparison because movie adaptations of books and tv shows based on characters from the comics or from a series of novels are two completely different things..

To expect the movie to be close to the source material makes sense if they are doing an adaptation but if the premise for a movie or show is to take the original characters, make a new version and write a new story you have to realize you aren't getting the source material and if you aren't willing to give something very different a chance you are setting yourself up for disappointment..

[johntfs]

Well, sure Twilight was an absurd example, it was meant to be.  The idea was how weird would it be if "Biology Class Student" ended up as the romantic lead?  And how pissed off would the fans be at losing their epic Jacob/Bella/Edward romance to a background bit character?

I'm just looking at this from the hypothetical comic fans' perspective.  Which, again, I don't share.  I believe that Felicity and Emily Bett Rickards' portrayal of her have been utterly critical to the show's success.  I believe that without her the show would have been cancelled and this thread would be a pit of sad mourning for how they fucked up the show.  That said, I can see how they'd see the sudden elevation of Felicity as a kind of disrespect for the source material and of them.  That the showrunners cared so little about the characters' story that they were fine with some background bit player coming in and "stealing" Oliver's heart.  Like that.  Of course, the heads of rabid comic fans are often suffused with rancid nerd-juice in which stews a particularly toxic misogyny.  So, once again, screw those guys.

[Mellowyellow]

4 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Yup, that's the one! 

You totally should watch the L/O hookup, if only for laughs because of how bad it was compared to 320. The socks! The way she wrapped around him like a koala bear! The scene ending with a closeup of poor Tommy's face!

And then watch this blooper reel to see them literally fail spectacularly while filming the L/O hookup scene. (at minute 1:55)

OMG! WTF!!! Who directed that hot mess? I was reaaally skeptical about watching that because I was worried I'd need to bleach my brain afterwards but OMG THAT WAS HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!! Heeeeeee

What was with the comedic grabby hands trying to pull at the buttons. That was not sexy! Just awkward! And not cute awkward (520 when Oliver couldn't take Felicity's top off and she helped him he had the most adorable smile)! Why was that so weird???? And the weird scene at the window where they looked like they were trying to not drop Laurel! And Tommy's face! OMG!!!!! WTF was with the flashing to Tommy's face!!!!!!!! 

The scene was actually much shorter than I expected since 320 went on for ages (I didn't like 320 as much as 520 because I think that 320 was super rude despite being more artsy).

Still can't get over the fact that they kept cutting to Tommy's face! 

***

They missed the bed! Ouch!!! That looked like it would have hurt!

[Midnight Lullaby]

If the premise of an hypothetical show was to take Bella's character and make a new version of her and a new story that isn't meant to follow the plot of the books but it's an alternative tale of her life with a few elements in common with the original material it could go anywhere. And yes, some fans would be pissed but it wouldn't make much sense because the premise is to write an original story so if you aren't interested in that and want the plot from the books than that work isn't for you. You can watch an adaptation or if it doesn't exist stick to the source material. 

I understand wanting an adaptation of a book, series of novels, comics that you loved and if they promised you an adaptation to get pissed because they didn't deliver what they were supposed to but if from the beginning they tell you it is their own version of the characters you like either you are open to that or there's no point in watching. And of course even if you are open to an original story it can not be your thing because you don't like their take on the characters or the original plot and that I absolutely get but what doesn't make sense to me is getting mad because they aren't following the source material when from the beginning they said they were writing a show based on the characters from DC comics (and it keeps being written on screen at the beginning of every episode) and not an adaptation. 

[tv echo]

I recently finished reading Austencello's musical analyses of all S5 episodes and a few S4 episodes. She pointed out that Lauriver's theme songs on the show have been Loss and Regrets and I Don’t Blame You.  On the other hand, Olicity's theme songs on the show have been The One I Love and Someone You Love.  (The titles are to original Blake Neely compositions.) That's telling...

407:

Quote

If you are wondering at this point why I have gone off on such a long tangent for Oliver’s previous romantic interests, the point is thus: the only time there are specific love themes for Oliver are for women that he says “I love you.”  Mainly Laurel with “Loss and Regrets” and “I don’t Blame You” in the first two Seasons and Felicity with “The One I Love” and “Someone You Love.”  Laurel was the love of Oliver’s past and Felicity became the love of his present and future.  

https://austencello.tumblr.com/post/153503429384/vigilante-arrow-music-notes-4x07

508:

Quote

...  As soon as he sees Laurel in her wedding dress, “Take a walk”/”I don’t Blame You” (2x01) begins which is the other Laurel and Oliver theme.  During Season 2, this is their music looking back at the past and recognizing that they can’t go forward as a couple.  Whether it is in 2x01 when they realize they can’t move forward together because of guilt over Tommy.  In 2x05 “Rejected” when Laurel asks why everyone leaves her.  In 2x14 “Half My Life” when Oliver admits that he loved her for half his life but is done running after her.

 https://austencello.tumblr.com/post/154089781389/invasion-arrow-music-notes-5x08-crossover

509:

Quote

One of the Flashbacks includes a moment between Felicity and Oliver as she researches another terrible lie for him (singing telegram?! That is pretty hilarious)  A wonderful and interesting part of this flashback is that the music reminds us of their relationship.  Not where they were in Season 1 since no-one knew at that point that Felicity would be the love of Oliver’s life.  They didn’t have a theme together until Season 2.  Yet now that relationship has happened, little musical clues can be planted.  Happy harp, piano and strings play as Felicity gives Oliver the address and knocks off her red pen (the same music from 3x01 when Oliver asks Felicity out on a date).  Then the first 4 notes of the Olicity theme “The One I Love” plays as Oliver gives Felicity the pen back (in a proposal stance.)  Reminders of the first date (”it was red”), of the magic of their relationship, of their proposal.  It was nice to hear that theme again even just a little hint.

http://austencello.tumblr.com/post/154318061629/what-we-leave-behind-arrow-music-notes-5x09

510:

Quote

... As Laurel explains Sara’s role and “gift”, “Loss and Regrets” (the Lauriver theme) begins with the flute melody (at the end of their theme) before switching to the piano theme (the beginning).  This is their theme that occurred at their first meeting in 1x01 and when she dies in 4x18.  Throughout the series, it filled moments of regret as they deal with selfishness, cheating, substance abuse, and disappointment.  It also played in Oliver’s dreamworld (5x08) giving him a relationship with Laurel without regrets.  To have her back with a second chance is a miracle to Oliver.  Another shot at redemption in a relationship that he failed.

https://austencello.tumblr.com/post/156593269434/who-are-you-arrow-music-notes-5x10

520:

Quote

A fun variation on Felicity’s humorous strings play as she attempts the Salmon Ladder and Oliver is amused.  However, the moods shifts and the main Olicity theme “The One I Love” (first heard in 2x23) returns as they make out.  I love how each musical version of this theme is slightly different.  This version begins with the repeating harp (Felicity’s instrument - first appears in 3x01 as Felicity walks away from the kiss).  The violins get the melody this time instead of the cellos and then soars up an octave in the counter-melody part (heard in its fullness in 3x20 “Convince Him”) as the piano and oboe plays the melody in unison. The oboe first plays in this melody in 3x20 (the “I love You”/sex scene) and is used throughout Season 4 as Oliver and Felicity love each other and are together.  The piano first introduced the theme in 2x23 and suggests both love and longing.  What is interesting in this version is the overlaying of the two melodies in different registers.  It gives both intensity, beauty, and passion.

https://austencello.tumblr.com/post/160420716869/underneath-arrow-music-notes-5x20

Edited June 4, 2017 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

Well, sure Twilight was an absurd example, it was meant to be.  The idea was how weird would it be if "Biology Class Student" ended up as the romantic lead?  And how pissed off would the fans be at losing their epic Jacob/Bella/Edward romance to a background bit character?

If they were still watching and complaining after Bella had been with Biology Student for over half the show's run, I'd want them to shut up about it too.

[shadow2008]

10 hours ago, statsgirl said:

From the Starling Times thread

I'll admit my bias:  I don't understand what the big deal is to have two superheroes in a relationship.  But more than that, I don't see how it could work on television.  TV is a medium that depends on opposites playing off of each other, whether it's the brusqueness of Worf against the optimism of Dax or the seriousness of Beckett against the manchild Castle. For  multi-season TV show, Daredevil/Elektra isn't going to work unless they are surrounded by characters who aren't like them and will carry a substantial portion of the show.

I'm not clamoring for GA/BC here (or at least not the icky version we would have seen on Arrow), but why shouldn't a romantic relationship between 2 superheroes be able to work longterm if they have different backgrounds, personalities and a different approach as to how they go about their superhero business? That's like saying an on-screen romance between 2 cops, soldiers, lawyers, teachers, spies or doctors can't work longterm just because they're working in the same field. IMO, that's a very shallow way of looking at things. As for Daredevil/Elektra, they aren't the intended longterm romance of the show. Elektra is Daredevil's romantic foil, as is usually the case when 2 superheroes are romantically involved with each other. His main romantic love interest is Karen Page, the regular girl. 

Edited June 4, 2017 by shadow2008

[BunsenBurner]

7 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

It also doesn't work as a comparison because movie adaptations of books and tv shows based on characters from the comics or from a series of novels are two completely different things..

To expect the movie to be close to the source material makes sense if they are doing an adaptation but if the premise for a movie or show is to take the original characters, make a new version and write a new story you have to realize you aren't getting the source material and if you aren't willing to give something very different a chance you are setting yourself up for disappointment..

I am going to paraphrase Stephen King, he said what he writes in his books are his story, what he sees on screen be it TV or movie is an interpretation of his book. If the director or writer changes it, sometimes for the better in his opinion, that's what happens when he allows his works to be visualized. 

[statsgirl]

Sure two superheroes can have a longterm TV relationship, just like two cops or doctors can.  But it would be in spite of the fact that they're both superheroes, not because of it, just as it is for the other characters.  Your original statement 

Quote

I can understand that fans, who were hoping to see a true superhero power couple kicking ass and taking names, are disappointed to end up with more of the same.

sounded like the point for them was to have two superheroes were in a relationship together, not that there two people are perfect in a relationship with each other and both happen to be superheroes.  I the problem is that they don't like Felicity because she's not Laurel Lance..  i suspect that if Oliver were with Laurel and she stayed a lawyer or flower shop owner and never became the Black Canary, there might be grumblings but no the outright anger that comes out here.  They aren't upset about Superman being with Lois Lane or Barry Allen with Iris West.

I wonder what the reaction would be if Lois Lane or Iris suddenly developed powers and became a superhero fighting alongside her man.

.

Edited June 4, 2017 by statsgirl

[johntfs]

49 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I wonder what the reaction would be if Lois Lane or Iris suddenly developed powers and became a superhero fighting alongside her man.

I think it'd be kind of awesome.  I like the idea of couples being relative equals.  I do note that the Superperson/Regular person dynamic is generally male/female with the male in the "super" position.  Just look at the Arrowverse couples.  Oliver/Felicity, Barry/Iris, Cisco/Gypsy, Nate/Amaya, Kara/Mon-el.  Note that when a woman has superpowers, she's paired with a male who has them.  When a male has powers/abilities, he's fine paired with a woman who lacks them (or, in Felicity's case, has abilities that are non-combat in nature). 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I just get how some of the comic fans feel as they do.  It's like if Clark Kent ignores Lois Lane to go with Journalist Intern #3 or Peter Parker skates past Gwen Stacy or Mary Jane to get with Pizza Delivery Girl.  How about Harry Potter never gets with Ginny Weasley but instead gets with the Hot Waitress from the beginning of Movie 6 (Actually, I think that would have been cool).   For my part, I think Twilight would have been better if Bella had dissed the vamps/wolves and gone with Biology Class Student, but that's just me.

To start with, I think making a movie or even a series of movies will allow for something very different than translating characters to the TV screen.  The end point is fixed in a movie and whether the relationship works or not. there's  little time to consider exploring Bella's chemistry with Biology Class Student.

And I get what you are saying, that we come into these franchises with expectations from the source material and I don't even think they are unreasonable expectations.  They are the expectations that I went in with as well.  

I've been a Lois/Clark shipper since I saw the Superman II movie as a little girl and spent time trying to figure out how to fix it to give them a happy ending.  But then I watched Smallville and the last thing I ever wanted was for him to end up with THAT Lois.  I'd have taken Lana over that Lois and that's saying a lot.  

And I'd known for a long time that Peter Parker and Mary-Jane Watson were the couple on Spiderman and yet by the second Toby McGuire Spiderman movie, I was wishing that Peter Parker would run into a Pizza Delivery Girl and by the third movie I would have been fine if they met when Pizza Delivery Girl ran over Mary Jane.  

Harry and Ginny is not a fair comparison for me to comment on since I still think the only reason that Harry ended up with Ginny was so that he could legally call the Weasley's his family, not because anything shown on screen and written in the books made Ginny and Harry anything but an incredibly boring couple.  (More so even in the books than on screen, the movie IMPROVED their relationship, lol)

I guess what I'm saying is that I get thinking something should go a certain way, but what matters so much more to me is what we actually get.  Wanting something because it's good is one thing, but wanting something even when it's not good because it was once good in some other incarnation, doesn't add up for me.  I get regret that it didn't work out, but then let it go.  For one, with superheroes and comic stuff, there will always be another incarnation down the line.  I HATED Lois and Clark on Smallville.  I quite like Lois and Clark (the scant bit we got) in the new movies.  

So five years down the road, I can't offer any current sympathies to those that still want BC and GA as a couple on ARROW.  

Edited June 4, 2017 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

17 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Who knows! Maybe if they had cast better and Oliver looked at Laurel like she was sunshine and rainbows (instead of a dead rodent he had to scrape off his lawn) maybe some of us could have forgiven the cheating back story as a "mistakes in his youth" type of thing. But we will never know!

I knew BC and GA as a couple from Young Justice and the Justice League animated shows and I liked them together.  So I was looking forward to seeing them as a couple, and as others have said, the built in romantic pairing on Arrow was part of appeal of the show initially (aka before I saw the execution, lol).  And even though in the first episode, I mostly bristled every time Laurel was on screen, I remember making a comment to a friend that since Oliver's cheating history in the comics was always going to loom over the relationship, it was sort of a smart move to make the cheating stuff all happen five years in the past before Oliver evolved, giving the audience a chance to forgive the past and start with a clean slate moving forward without worrying about upcoming cheating.  

And I suspect that if when Oliver had returned to Starling and found a Laurel that had already come to terms with their past and accepted that as horrible as Oliver and Sara had behaved, Sara's death had been an accident, that would have been a couple that could have somewhere down the road been rebuilt.  Instead of shaking with pent up fury and blame (since Laurel would have already learned to channel that anger into say some kind of martial arts training) she could have still wanted nothing to do with him but more on a level of, I am glad you are alive but now seeing their mess of relationship without blinders, there would be no interest in having him in her life.

Then they could have kept forcing them to interact and maybe at some point she could have a moment where she breaks and lets loose how really furious she is at him, but if it came down the line rather than in the first episodes when we are meeting her, maybe we'd have learned to like Laurel on her own rather than feel like her anger at Oliver cast her as unsympathetic and just heaping pain on our hero.  

So maybe they could have made the toxic cheating backstory work, but they needed to change who Laurel was when we met her in the pilot.  She needed  a different personality and perspective in addition to better writing.  

11 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

 

The scene was actually much shorter than I expected since 320 went on for ages (I didn't like 320 as much as 520 because I think that 320 was super rude despite being more artsy).

 

Looking for a clarification on what you mean here. I think there might be a language difference.  Super rude to me means really impolite or disgusting.  What were you trying to say?

5 hours ago, johntfs said:

I think it'd be kind of awesome.  I like the idea of couples being relative equals.  I do note that the Superperson/Regular person dynamic is generally male/female with the male in the "super" position.  Just look at the Arrowverse couples.  Oliver/Felicity, Barry/Iris, Cisco/Gypsy, Nate/Amaya, Kara/Mon-el.  Note that when a woman has superpowers, she's paired with a male who has them.  When a male has powers/abilities, he's fine paired with a woman who lacks them (or, in Felicity's case, has abilities that are non-combat in nature). 

Yeah, I think Wonder Woman's love interest being mere mortal, Steve Trevor, is the outlier and even that canonical pairing is frequently mocked and winked at in a silly manner (And in the animated JL series kind of successfully replaced with a pull between Diana and Bats who might as well be super powered)

It's been my opinion, that one of the big obstacles writers have had with female led Super Power movies (or even just normal level powerful females in the lead) is not knowing how to handle the male love interests.  It's an odd comparison to make in some ways, but Madame Secretary has been one of the first shows that I've seen successfully navigate that power balance. And all they really had to do is make the love interest, male or female, good at something of their own so they aren't competing with the lead.  And yet, so often that have been impossibly hard to accomplish it seems.  

Certainly with shows like The Flash, they have an incredibly hard time remembering to show Iris's strength outside of supporting her man, but while many consider emotional strength enough for women, that same "rule" doesn't apply to men.  Personally, male or female, showing a well rounded, capable character makes for better storytelling IMO.  

Lois and Clark works best when Clark is awed by not only her love and support for him, but her tenacity, courage and brilliance as a reporter.  She comes with her own superpower.    

That's why I so enjoy Oliver and Felicity.  She brings her own strengths and talents to the table, something truly unmatched and when Oliver isn't around, she doesn't stop being strong and capable.  And I also like that they remember to write Oliver as giving emotional support to Felicity (at least at times, lol).  I think creating a balance of power in couples is important, but I think it's not necessary to achieve that balance through equal physical strength.  In fact, I think it's more interesting when it's not.    

Edited June 4, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Trini]

5 hours ago, johntfs said:

I think it'd be kind of awesome.  I like the idea of couples being relative equals.  I do note that the Superperson/Regular person dynamic is generally male/female with the male in the "super" position.  Just look at the Arrowverse couples.  Oliver/Felicity, Barry/Iris, Cisco/Gypsy, Nate/Amaya, Kara/Mon-el.  Note that when a woman has superpowers, she's paired with a male who has them.  When a male has powers/abilities, he's fine paired with a woman who lacks them (or, in Felicity's case, has abilities that are non-combat in nature). 

All of Kara's love interests in Season 1 were 'non-powered'. Then the show switched networks... ::sigh::. So they did follow the pattern to start with.

[BkWurm1]

3 minutes ago, Trini said:

All of Kara's love interests in Season 1 were 'non-powered'. Then the show switched networks... ::sigh::. So they did follow the pattern to start with.

True, but they also IMO botched the pairings.  Supergirl pushed Adam away because her powers and secret identity kept pulling her away from him so that was over before it started and with James, they started ok with him having his own identity, the famous photographer, but then they IMO failed to make him as anything but her helper and really, Winn was better with the computers and info.  James wasn't even out there doing much as a photographer anymore.  He lost his identity and by the second season, he lost love interest status.  

I do wonder if giving him the Guardian arc was intended on making him "worthy" of Supergirl.  (Though right now I think they are pretty happy with Mon-El so any plans there would be on hold or fully shelved.)  But James, even if he ever is considered a full blown Superhero as Guardian, can never measure up to Supergirl.  He shouldn't be trying to compete.  If they'd just focused on his abilities as a photographer or his abilities as a journalist, then I think he could have been fine in the love interest slot, but they weakened his character first with the love triangle and then his wishy washy feelings and by not really letting him shine on his own merits, only as a hanger on for Kara.  

[Mellowyellow]

@BkWurm1 I meant super saucy! Like a tad porno-ish! Don't get me wrong I still think it was awesome but I much prefer 520. I felt/feel like I shouldn't be watching 320!

[Trini]

27 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I do wonder if giving him the Guardian arc was intended on making him "worthy" of Supergirl.  

Looking back over the season, I think it was more to give him something to justify Mehcad's paycheck because James (and CatCo) was sidelined (with episodes where he was absent or had only one or two scenes), and to have more action scenes. If I thought they had any plans to get Kara and James back together ever, I might agree with you; but the show has been very clear.  ::SIGH::

But back to the topic at hand: I think both kinds of couples - powered/normal and powered/powered - can work and be interesting in different ways. However, literal power couples are much rarer, so it's harder to provide an example of a good one.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Trini

[johntfs]

11 minutes ago, Trini said:

so it's harder to provide an example of a good one.

Reed and Sue Richards.  Also Mr. Incredible and Elasti-girl.

[BkWurm1]

9 minutes ago, Trini said:

Looking back over the season, I think it was more to give him something to justify Mehcad's paycheck because James (and CatCo) was sidelined (with episodes where he was absent or had only one or two scenes), and to have more action scenes. If I thought they had any plans to get Kara and James back together ever, I might agree with you; but the show has been very clear.  ::SIGH::

But back to the topic at hand: I think both kinds of couples - powered/normal and powered/powered - can work and be interesting in different ways. However, literal power couples are much rarer, so it's harder to provide an example of a good one.

Oliver and Felicity work pretty well as a power couple to me.  :D

[Mellowyellow]

I've never identified with Felicity despite being quite crazy about her. 

She is a gorgeous genius with a massive IQ who diffuses bombs in her spare time. That's kinda not normal to me. 

I actually thought the BC version of Laurel was pretty ordinary. I can punch badly and use an electronic device for my canary cry. That was a bloody awful backstory. 

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I knew BC and GA as a couple from Young Justice and the Justice League animated shows and I liked them together.  So I was looking forward to seeing them as a couple, and as others have said, the built in romantic pairing on Arrow was part of appeal of the show initially (aka before I saw the execution, lol).  And even though in the first episode, I mostly bristled every time Laurel was on screen, I remember making a comment to a friend that since Oliver's cheating history in the comics was always going to loom over the relationship, it was sort of a smart move to make the cheating stuff all happen five years in the past before Oliver evolved, giving the audience a chance to forgive the past and start with a clean slate moving forward without worrying about upcoming cheating.  

And I suspect that if when Oliver had returned to Starling and found a Laurel that had already come to terms with their past and accepted that as horrible as Oliver and Sara had behaved, Sara's death had been an accident, that would have been a couple that could have somewhere down the road been rebuilt.  Instead of shaking with pent up fury and blame (since Laurel would have already learned to channel that anger into say some kind of martial arts training) she could have still wanted nothing to do with him but more on a level of, I am glad you are alive but now seeing their mess of relationship without blinders, there would be no interest in having him in her life.

Then they could have kept forcing them to interact and maybe at some point she could have a moment where she breaks and lets loose how really furious she is at him, but if it came down the line rather than in the first episodes when we are meeting her, maybe we'd have learned to like Laurel on her own rather than feel like her anger at Oliver cast her as unsympathetic and just heaping pain on our hero.  

So maybe they could have made the toxic cheating backstory work, but they needed to change who Laurel was when we met her in the pilot.  She needed  a different personality and perspective in addition to better writing.  

Yes.  The sister thing was super shady, but I think even that could have been overcome.  The two main problems with Laurel, initially, were the casting and her level of anger toward Oliver.  The casting was dictated by the network, so there was nothing they could do about the anti-chemistry, but some softening of Laurel's dialogue would have helped.  Lauriver on Arrow was never going to be a pairing for the ages, not with these actors, but it could have been believable.  

In only her second scene Laurel tells the main character that she wishes he was still rotting in hell.  Up until that point Oliver had only been portrayed as traumatized and guilt ridden, and he had the audience's sympathy.  Just, what, two scenes before that he was giving his little sister a souvenir.  Before that he was shown sleeping on the floor while having a nightmare.  That right there told me I could never root for these two.  Laurel was written, even from the pilot, as harsh and unforgiving.  Paired with a character like Oliver, who had very little lightness of his own, it didn't work.

[Starfish35]

Personally, I don't think that her anger would have been an insurmountable obstacle, with the right casting and writing. Laurel had a right to be angry, to even want him dead.  But to get past that, they needed an actress that could play the layers, and let us see the warmth and caring underneath the pain and anger, and KC absolutely cannot play layers.  And it would have helped a great deal if they hadn't written her as flip-flopping back and forth just in the pilot episode.  Have her stay angry but slowly come around, not the back and forth thing they did.  

In order for the relationship to work, we needed to empathize with Laurel, care about what she was feeling, even with her justified anger toward Our Hero.  And that connection with the audience never happened.  

Edited June 4, 2017 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I do wonder if giving him the Guardian arc was intended on making him "worthy" of Supergirl.  (Though right now I think they are pretty happy with Mon-El so any plans there would be on hold or fully shelved.)  But James, even if he ever is considered a full blown Superhero as Guardian, can never measure up to Supergirl.  He shouldn't be trying to compete.

I think they were keeping him in reserve with the way they wrote him and Kara in the first part of this season but now as you say they are full speed on Mon El and every other secondary character, even J'onn, is now tertiary.

It's ironic because I think Mon El is far more divisive of the fandom than Felicity ever was.  Felicity divides some comic book readers from non-comic book readers but Mon El divides people who have never even read the comic books.

30 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

and KC absolutely cannot play layers.

I think it was made worse by the fact that she doesn't understand layers.   Her reading of Laurel was black and white -- Laurel is angry at Oliver for cheating on her with Sara; Laurel admires the Hood; Oliver is the love of Laurel's life; Laurel is brave&strong.  She just jumped from platform to platform.  Someone told her at the start of the pilot that Laurel is a hero and Oliver is the love of her life and she never wavered from that.

Edited June 5, 2017 by statsgirl

[Starfish35]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I think it was made worse by the fact that she doesn't understand layers.   Her reading of Laurel was black and white -- Laurel is angry at Oliver for cheating on her with Sara; Laurel admires the Hood; Oliver is the love of Laurel's life; Laurel is brave&strong.  She just jumped from platform to platform.  Someone told her at the start of the pilot that Laurel is a hero and Oliver is the love of her life and she never wavered from that.

Yeah there's no such thing as nuance with her. 

As for James, I tend to agree with @Trini that they didn't have any intention of revisiting Karolsen.  I don't think they would have ended it so abruptly (and awkwardly) if they did.   To be honest (much like Laurel), I don't even know why  James is still on the show.  I was a bit surprised that they didn't write him out at the end of this season.  

[tangerine95]

39 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Personally, I don't think that her anger would have been an insurmountable obstacle, with the right casting and writing. Laurel had a right to be angry, to even want him dead.  But to get past that, they needed an actress that could play the layers, and let us see the warmth and caring underneath the pain and anger, and KC absolutely cannot play layers.  And it would have helped a great deal if they hadn't written her as flip-flopping back and forth just in the pilot episode.  Have her stay angry but slowly come around, not the back and forth thing they did.  

In order for the relationship to work, we needed to empathize with Laurel, care about what she was feeling, even with her justified anger toward Our Hero.  And that connection with the audience never happened.  

Yeah I think the anger was understandable even tho it was a bad choice for a first scene at that intensity and actors with chemistry could have probably saved it.

The constantly changing her mind was what really made it awful for me and was one of the things that made me dislike Laurel right from the start.She goes from hating him and wanting him to rot in hell to by the end of the episode wanting to talk and seeming more forgiving.Then when he rejects her she goes back to being awful to him at every chance but seeks him out or changes her mind at any sign of attention from him and it would just basically go like that every episode.Same with the Hood,just flip flopping between thinking he's helping and thinking he's a monster.

Edited June 5, 2017 by tangerine95

[leopardprint]

The thing is their college (?) relationship was still a terrible relationship. I don't get why they wanted to date each other beyond college relationship level shallow reasons. They should have pushed much harder on the best friends aspect. College Laurel seemed in a constant state of annoyance with Ollie. 

I think her anger was totally justified and honestly S1 Oliver didn't really seem that remorseful since he was focusing on the list and then that weird swerve at the end of the seasons where he told Tommy to fight for her but then went and slept with her but then abandoned her (again) without a word. (Retconned deathbed letters aside) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[ladylaw99]

My problem with LL and Oliver is simple, I didn't by them as friends let alone bf and gf. I didn't believe the connection right from the get go and this is coming from someone who had no expectations of any relationships, canon or not.  I just didn't believe it.

[insomniadreams88]

I haven't watched any of the O/L scenes from S1 in a few years, but what I do remember is always feeling bad for Tommy. And 419 just reminded me of that. I think that really hurt the O/L relationship. 

So maybe if not for that, I'd be okay with O/L together on another Earth (as long as I don't have to see it). Instead, I care more about Tommy being happy on another Earth and hopefully far away from that mess. 

(And I was all for Laurel/Tommy starting with the pilot until the first season progressed and I realized he deserved so much better.)

[statsgirl]

42 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

honestly S1 Oliver didn't really seem that remorseful since he was focusing on the list and then that weird swerve at the end of the seasons where he told Tommy to fight for her but then went and slept with her but then abandoned her (again) without a word.

I understand it if I fanwank that Oliver wanted Laurel in s1 (considerable evidence to the contrary) but thought that as the Hood he couldn't have a romantic relationship and so he encouraged Tommy and Laurel to be together.    Then when he thought he had a chance of beating Merlyn, saving Starling City and ending happily ever after, he went after her again.

The problem is that Oliver and Laurel brought out the worst, most manipulative and self-centred parts in each other every time.  Tommy's death, being the hero that save Laurel when Oliver was busy saving the city, should have caused both of them enough shame that it ended any potential for a future together.  Except of course when it was retrconned in s4 on Laurel's deathbed.

ETA:  when I compare Laurel's relationship with Tommy, a man who wooed her foryears and organized a fund-raiser for CNRI for her and died trying to save her life after she ignored three people telling her not to go to the Glades that day, to her relationship with Oliver, who lied to her, cheated on her, kept her out of the most important parts of his and didn't trust her to join him while she yelled at him for not treating her like his partner, every time she said Oliver was the love of her life I want to stage an intervention.

Edited June 5, 2017 by statsgirl

[Hiveminder]

10 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I haven't watched any of the O/L scenes from S1 in a few years, but what I do remember is always feeling bad for Tommy. And 419 just reminded me of that. I think that really hurt the O/L relationship. 

So maybe if not for that, I'd be okay with O/L together on another Earth (as long as I don't have to see it). Instead, I care more about Tommy being happy on another Earth and hopefully far away from that mess. 

(And I was all for Laurel/Tommy starting with the pilot until the first season progressed and I realized he deserved so much better.)

Even though Tommy wasn't always my favorite character, he was the only one I felt bad for in that triangle.  I occasionally felt a little sorry for Oliver when Laurel was particularly harsh towards him, but I never believed that he cared about her as much as the dialogue was trying to convince me he did so her dissaproval/dissapointment/whatever never seemed to matter all that much.  

[johntfs]

23 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

College Laurel seemed in a constant state of annoyance with Ollie. 

College Laurel seemed like a girl busy growing into a full adult while college Oliver seemed like a selfish hedonist who really only dated Laurel so he go bring her home to mom and dad, show he was (pretending to be) growing up while he fucked other women on the side.  Pre-island Oliver was a deeply shitty human being.

2 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Even though Tommy wasn't always my favorite character, he was the only one I felt bad for in that triangle.  I occasionally felt a little sorry for Oliver when Laurel was particularly harsh towards him, but I never believed that he cared about her as much as the dialogue was trying to convince me he did so her dissaproval/dissapointment/whatever never seemed to matter all that much.  

I felt sorry for Tommy and at least somewhat sorry for Laurel.  I think she and Tommy really loved each other but the Oliver was kind of like a drug she couldn't quite kick.  I really didn't feel sorry for Oliver due to anything Laurel said to him.  He absolutely deserved that and multiple crotch stompings with spiked shoes.  I said pre-Island Oliver was a shitty person, but it's more accurate to say that pre-Felicity Oliver was a shitty person.  Oliver playacted toward everyone around him, manipulating them like chess pieces.  He initially only brought in John Diggle because he wanted an extra helper monkey.  While he made a couple of begrudging concession toward going after people not on The List, it was really only after Felicity became part of Team Arrow that Oliver began to make real strides toward being a better person and becoming a true hero.

[ladylaw99]

I never believed the Tommy and LL relationship either. All I saw was LL swapping one rich bf for another. I never believed she cared about Tommy, all I saw was her trying to see if Oliver would get jealous and in turn I saw Oliver not give too sh$ts until plot required him to.  Now it has been years but that's how I remember it.